| Does anyone know of a list or any source that covers the Raleigh built, but non-Raleigh Branded models as far as parts application? Any catalogs posted online? I came acrossed several wheelsets that are all Dunlop rims, with the Raleigh type front hub, but the hubs are mostly unmarked, some are chrome, some have an oiler port, some do not, some have a grease fitting or cap, and some look to be galvanized. All use the Raleigh single adjustable cone axle. |
My main questions are:
What models used which combination?
Which years or models had which hub styles?
All of the rims look the same, as do the spokes, with the exception of one, which has 40 12 gauge spokes, but still is a Dunlop rim. The tire that's on it is a "Raleigh Record" 26x1 3/8", black wall. What model would have used a 40 hole front wheel? The hub on that wheel looks like the one on my '69 Robin Hood only with 40 holes, but not as well finished, it looks to be zinc plated. It still has the original cloth rim strip and threaded stem tube, so I doubt it's a custom wheel. I can't picture what would have had such a wheel.
I haven't found a matching rear wheel for it yet, but I'm still digging through the pile.
Was there ever a 26x1 3/8" wheeled tandem from Raleigh? But of course I would have expected that a tandem would have had an S/A Front drum brake? Did Raleigh branded models ever use the Dunlop rims? Were these what was supplied on the economy model (S22) Raleigh Sports, in place of the standard Raleigh Pattern rims?
Most of this find was pretty rough, but I should have enough in all to build myself a couple sets of mint clean wheel sets for some upcoming projects using all original parts.
| This fold-out catelouge from the 1960's of Raleigh's secondary-brand parts should be of interest to you:|
I've only had one wheel that was not intended for a Raleigh, from a 1969 Robin Hood, and the hub is of the galvinized variant, no oiler port. Disgusting. The vinyl Brooks mattress saddle on it is also galvinized. I'd put a guess that most of the other secondary-brand Raleigh models of the late 1960s used the galvinized parts.
It's interesting to note though, that the hub shown in the parts manual has an oiler. I believe the parts sheet is from the early to mid '60s though - Raleigh probably went galvinized after the mid '60s.
All the front hubs on my Raleighs are chrome-plated, although I've found about three variants of the Raleigh front hub within the the 1970-1979 era. Some have the oiler port - these usually feature Sir Walter embossed on the shell, and I believe were used up until 1973. Those used afterwards were marked "Made In England", and did not feature the port.
Odd that you mention the rims are marked "Dunlop" though - by 1968, Sturmey-Archer took over the rim manufacturing process. All of these rims were stamped identical to the Dunlops, save for the manufacturer name - "Sturmey-Archer" instead of "Dunlop".
I've never seen a zinc plated SA 3 speed hub. Any chance you might be able to snap us a picture of this?
I don't believe Raleigh ever produced a tandem, but a few models cropped up here and there with drum brakes - I believe it was an option in some cases.
Most all 1960's Raleighs had "Dunlop" stamped rims, although those with Westricks from the '50s and earlier were stamped "Raleigh." I'd put a very good guess that the S22s featured Dunlop-stamped box-pattern Endricks instead of the raised-center Westricks.
Have you got any 1950's Westrick wheelsets in there with the rough raised center? Looking for a pair to use on my 1951 Sports "C" Tourist...even better if it's got an FW hub ;-)
| Regarding catalogues of Raleigh rebranded bikes and parts again.|
The rebrands were often purchased and distributed thru department stores, other marques and even retail stores. The department stores wouldn't deal in the full range of parts and didn't usually publish parts in their catalogues. I have a 1954 Norman with double top tube, SA three speed AB hubs with drum brakes that is badged as a McBride Cycle, a Toronto shop still open today. They knew it was a Norman thru shop folklore...it's still a family business after a century.
CCM was the canadian giant for most of the last century and they assembled many bikes with british components. These are well published in catalogues that are filled with english and Raleigh parts.I have catalogues from the 30's from a shop in the Prairies...lots of brit-bike stuff there as well.
A 40 hole wheel with 12 gauge spokes. Sounds like a "light delivery" bike but I thought they had 26 X 1 3/4. (mine does)
See http://tinyurl.com/a75bd for a lousy small pic.
Kurt, regarding Dunlop rims with rough raised centres...many of our 28 inch Dunlop Westwoods had that rough centre but they were almost always painted! Usually the frame colour and white pinstripes. I have a number of them on bikes from the 40's and 50's. I wonder whether Dunlop made those Westricks for a rebrand who maybe bailed on the added costs of the hand painted centre and pins.
| To clarify, the rough raised centre was painted with pins...the rest of the rim was left as chrome.|
| Kurt, the SA 3 speed hubs are all chrome, it's just the front's that are galvanized. I have a 1966 Robin Hood that has a chrome front hub, with an oil port though, it looks almost like a grease fitting instead of the common spring steel band covering the hole. |
All of these rims are marked Dunlop, none are SA branded and are the sqare Endrick Style rim. The odd 40 hole front rim is marked the with the same Dunlop stamping as the others, and could probably be used for a rear rim if needed. The hub however is is drilled oversized for the larger spokes, but looks like the other galvanized hubs with no oil hole.
I have no idea what these came off of, they were piled up in a back store room at an old bike shop. I actually had to sort through dozens of other rims to pick out the British stuff.
There are no raised center Westwood rims in the bunch, although I was hoping to find a few. This dealer had them sold Raleigh back in the 60's and 70's, but he didn't recall selling any other of the rebranded models.
The 40 hole, 12 gauge spoked front wheel is definitely a 26x1 3/8" rim, and uses a Raleigh type front hub, but is galvanized not chrome. It could have been built custom wheel at some point, but has definitely been together for a long time. Either way, what Raleigh product used a 40 hole front hub? It's also without an oil hole. None of these front hubs are marked "Made In England", but a few do have the Sir Walter logo. I have seen the later S/A branded rims, but most were 36 hole or 27" for a later Sprite. Actually, I believe that most of the S/A marked rims I have seen have had the serated sides.
I have one Raleigh Sports that came to me with Dunlop rims, I had always assumed that they had been changed until I found the catalogs posted at retroraleighs.com, I guess it may be an S22 version? I was going to swap in a set of raised center Raleigh rims, but maybe it's correct the way it is?
Other than a tandem application, I can't think of any bike that would have had a 40 hole front wheel? Like Warren mentioned, a delivery bike of sorts would or could have used a heavier wheelset, but I can't find any history of a Raleigh with a 26x1 3/8" tire and a 40 hole front hub, or even a delivery type of model. One posibility is that maybe someone took a 40 hole front hub from a middleweight and built it into a former rear rim? Did Raleigh make a middle weight delivery bike? Which would have used a similar appearing hub to what we're all used to seeing?
As far as age, considering where this pile came from, I would say it's all from the late 60's to early 70's. I am going to go back and get the rest of the pile, but most of it's all balloon tire and old road bike, nothing very rare or old, but there may still be some good parts there. I grabbed the British stuff first, and will deal with the rest later. It looks like these were damaged wheels that were replaced, but there is a few good rims, and a few hubs, I am mainly concerned with matching up correct parts with a few really clean frames I have hanging in the garage that are in need of wheels. I want to try to put together a matching set for each of them out of these parts. I'll tear all of them down, clean and sort out the best parts, and assemble them from there. None are usable as is. Each has either a bent rim or bent axle, but out of it all I should be able to get the two wheel sets I need. The frames were put away with their original rear hubs, so that's not a problem. Each bike had badly rusted or bent rims, that were tossed years ago.
Finding good steel rims, whether Endrick or Westwood, is pretty hard to do around here. All of the rims I seem to find are either badly bruised, have no chrome left on the brake surface, or are rusted or pitted to bad to use.
I can't imagine that all of these old rims are gone, considering how many of these that were made back then, even though it's been at least 25 or 30 years since they were last made.
I have talked to several shop owners that said they scrapped dozens of these when they stopped seeing these bikes on a regular basis. I wish I would have been there when they were getting tossed.
Back in the early 80's when I used to work at a local shop, I remember getting dozens of various rims for stock, often cases of rims for wheel building, but no one builds wheels these days, they just order another cheap Chinese replacement.
| Kurt, If your looking for an early set of Raleigh pattern rims, I spotted this sale on eBay: (not mine)|
| Those are exactly the rims I had in mind...in fact, the exact wheelset I had in mind. |
I'm going to get these no matter what the shipping price...
| I took all of the Dunlop wheels apart this afternoon. All total, I ended up with 3 good 32H rims, 2 40H rims, 4 front hubs, one chrome, and one 40 hole front hub. I should be able to build one perfect set of wheels, one decent set and a spare front wheel. I'll have to dig though my spare parts though to find a few front axles and adjustable (right) side cones, not an axle in the pile was straight, and every right side cone was either missing or badly pitted. Most of the rims I deemed too far gone were due to either dents or brake wear, but many are still straight, so if I got desperate, I could get some of them rechromed. |
It seems I see a lot more Raleigh pattern and Dunlop style rims with brake wear. Much more so than any other brands. I wonder if it's due to the John Bull pads or if the chrome is thinner on these? Usually Raleigh chrome is much better than any of the other brands? Out of a pile of 36 English wheels, I was only able to make 2 1/2 wheelsets, but most all of the others which aren't bent are salvagable, although many are low end Asian or US wheels. Even a few Shimano 333 hubs, but no matched wheelsets in the whole rest of the pile.
I guess I did good for what someone else considered a pile of scrap. I counted over 100 wheels so far.
Some where there's got to be a huge pile of these rims stashed away in a warehouse, with as many of these bikes that were made, and considering how few of us in comparison still use and collect these versus the quanity of these bikes made over the years, along with all of the spare parts made, they can't all be gone. I still hate to think how many brand new rims or wheels were scrapped when these bikes started to become out of date in the bike shops.
A few years ago, I was going crazy looking for a particular pair 27" alloy rims, and I happened to stop in a bike shop while on vacation, and found the owner cursing about all of the old 'junk' he's been stuck with over the years, when I asked what he meant, he said he had bought cases of the rims and had only a handful of them over the years, he called it all obsolete junk. I asked what he was going to do with them, and he said he was going to crush each one and toss them in his dumpster. I offered him $20 for the all of the rims he didn't want anymore, he said $30. I didn't argue the price, and I came home from vacation with rims packed in every available bit of space, and strapped to the roof of my car. I built myself a couple of wheelsets, saved a few spares, and more than paid for the vacation with the rest of the rims on eBay. I need to find a guy like that again, but with English rims.
| Kurt I tried to use the email on your website but it doesn't work. Could you email me, I may have some info for your website. Tom|
| Hello Tom,|
You can email me at firstname.lastname@example.org - I have yet to get that section of the site up and running.
| >I have a 1966 Robin Hood that has a chrome front hub, with an oil port|
Interesting. Never seen one before. Could be a replacement, or an earlier fitting before R.I. cheapened the Robin Hood line.
>All of these rims are marked Dunlop, none are SA branded and are the sqare Endrick Style rim.
Must be all pre-1968 parts then. By '68, Endricks were SA marked.
>The odd 40 hole front rim
Tell me, is the rim drilled for larger spokes as well, or just the hub?
>There are no raised center Westwood rims...he didn't recall selling any other of the rebranded models
The common DL22 Sports always came with the Westrick rims (mind you, Raleigh's Westwoods were always the 28s), although the all-gold Sports editions from '68-'72 came with Endricks (did these bikes run a different DL number?), and so did the 1965 Dyno Deluxe Superbe.
I'm sure a few other models of the Raleigh line (of which I'm not familiar with) featured the Endricks. What I find surprising is that an ex-Raleigh shop would be full of Endrick rims, but not a Westrick in sight.
>what Raleigh product used a 40 hole front hub?
To the best of my knowledge, none. You would expect a 28" wheel for a delivery bike (which would obviously be hypothisis #1), yet this is a EA3 26" rim. Strange...
>I have seen the later S/A branded rims, but most were 36 hole or 27" for a later Sprite
SA-stamped rims came out in '68 in 32/40, changed to 36/36 in 1973. Sprites ran the SA 36h 27" rim...got any of these? Looking for one for my own Sprite.
>Actually, I believe that most of the S/A marked rims I have seen have had the serated sides
You mean, serrated sidewalls, where the brake pads come in contact? I've never seen this on a Raleigh, Dunlop or SA wheel. I do have a Westrick with serrated sidewalls though an NOS Sun-brand EA3 wheel which a collector friend gave to me. Looks identical to the SA Westricks, save for the Sun stamping.
>I have one Raleigh Sports that came to me with Dunlop rim...guess it may be an S22 version?
Possibly. Depends on the model. It isn't an all-gold edition, is it? Does it have the original saddle? An S22 would have a two-tone vinyl mattress saddle on it, if I recall correctly.
>maybe someone took a 40 hole front hub from a middleweight and built it into a former rear rim?
Most likely. If the spoke holes in the rim are the same diameter as the standard model, that's more reason then ever to believe so.
>As far as age, considering where this pile came from, I would say it's all from the late 60's to early 70's
No later then '67, according to the Dunlop stamp.
>Finding good steel rims, whether Endrick or Westwood, is pretty hard to do around here...either badly bruised, have no chrome left on the brake surface, or are rusted
Interesting. Down here in sunny, saltwaterish, South Florida, I have no trouble coming across very nice Dunlop and Sturmey Westricks and Endricks in very nice shape, needing only some minor cleanup with bronze wool and Flitz polish. I've only ran into one that was rusted through - a '71 Endrick - and you wouldn't have known the inner wall was rotted through from looking at it from the outside!
I do find it quite hard to find Westricks without their braking surface worn down to the nickle plate, but curiously, I never see this on the Endricks, no matter what the stamping may be on them.
>It seems I see a lot more Raleigh pattern and Dunlop style rims with brake wear. Much more so than any other brands. I wonder if it's due to the John Bull pads or if the chrome is thinner on these?
See my above comment on Westricks VS Endricks.
If you want to see trash plating, take a look at a pair of Schwinn Tubular S-6 27" rims on a Varsity or Continental. A nice 27" S-6 is nearly about rubbish-quality.
>but most all of the others which aren't bent are salvagable
You might want to take another look at any rim with an SA hub in it. You never know when you may spot a rare SA hub laced to an unlikely rim.
>Some where there's got to be a huge pile of these rims stashed away in a warehouse
They pop up on eBay now and then...don't worry, they still exist, just un-found.
>I need to find a guy like that again, but with English rims.
Keep searching - go to every bike shop in town and make a checklist of who-has-what, or who-not-to-bother-with.
| Kurt, |
I think the biggest problem around here is a lot of sand, dirt road shoulders and salt air from the bay and Ocean. Most of the bikes around here seem to be from the shore area, where the roads are bit more rider friendly. I am about 18 miles from salt water as a crow flies, and I have trouble keeping rims from rusting in my garage.
> As far as the 40 hole hub, the rim looks normal, just the hub is drilled oversized.
> Unfortunately, all of the rear hubs were mid 60's dates, nothing rare, all AW's, a few were robbed of parts.
> I know what you mean on the Schwinn S-6 rims, I haven't seen a perfect one in years.
> The Sports with the Dunlop rims has an all black Brooks padded saddle like those that came on the later Sprites, I have 4 Sports here, they all came to me with that same saddle. I haven't run acrossed one with a two tone mattress saddle yet. Where is the serial number on a Sports? I looked up down and sideways, and none of these has any sign of a serial number. The only dates I have for each is the rear hubs that they came with.
> The hub that's on my Robin Hood looks the same as I have seen of a few older British bikes, but from earlier years. This brings up the question of whether or not the wheels on that are original? Either may have been changed? I have no idea how to figure a date on a Robin Hood if the rims are changed. I did find a pic online that showed early and late brake calipers, mine match the earlier one's.
> I have been keeping an eye out for a set of Sprite rims as well, I have a clean early 70's Sprite, which had a set of rusted through 27" rims, even the center of the hub shell was rusted through, but the rest of the bike was untouched, good bars, seat post, fenders, etc. The other had 36/36 S/A rims. I had another that I stripped, that had bad rims as well, but even the frame was gone on that one. The odd part was that it looked good other than the frame, not even scratched, until you turned it over, the tubes were almost split down the bottom the whole length. It still rode though, if you dared. I was considering an S-5 conversion for the earlier one, and a set of alloy rims if I don't find anything else.
> The S/A rims with the "serrated" sidewalls, look more like a linear pattern, with 90 degree marks. Not cross hatched serations like on some French wheels. I have seen this on almost all of the later 27" Sprites, and several 26" rims. I just tossed a 26" S/A like this the other day with bare sidewalls a dent in the side. All of the 27" rims I have seen have been like this, even on Grand Prix's. I find more alloy rims in decent shape than steel rims. The only used steel rims I can usually salvage are the Japanese rims, and their about 50/50.
> I've hit just about all of the local shops, especially the older ones that sold British bikes. The odd part is that I haven't found any that sold the off branded Raleigh built bikes, but I find those about 20 to 1 here. It's also not uncommon here to find an old Raleigh with a cheap set of replacement wheels. I've seen all sorts of combinations. The worst is finding a Shimano hub on a nice old bike, with a set of cheap steel wheels, usually this combo comes with an excerciser seat and lots of house paint as well. Although, I have a really nice early Schwinn Traveller that came to me coated in white house paint, after about 3 days of carefully removing the latex paint, there was barely a scratch or spec of rust. I couldn't figure out why they painted it, rims and all, but it did preserve it well. The paint came off of everything except the tires, which were also original.
> I did notice that the spokes are interlaced on the Robin Hood, which may mean that the wheels have been rebuilt, but they do have S/A spoke nipples, the original cloth rim strips, and Dunlop tubes with the threaded valve stems still in place. The tires are early Carlysle replacements. Both rims on the Robin Hood are mint, no brake wear and perfectly round yet, I got the impression that it was packed away in an attic for years, the only real defects on the bike are the decals which are vaporizing, I loose more of them everytime I ride it, they are no longer adhered to the paint and flaking away. The paint is almost scratch free, with only some edge wear on the rear fender, and chainguard. The best part is the 24" frame.
> The best rims as far as chances of finding a set that will clean up are the Raleigh pattern rims found on the early Sports and Sprites, but not many bikes that I find have these. All of the lesser rims are trashed. I used an old Dunelt for years and over many, many miles on a newpaper route years ago, and never had a rim wear through the chrome. An that bike just plain got abused, bad roads, dirt shoulders, overloaded, and never got cleaned, yet the rim plating lasted just fine. I can't imagine what other people do to tear up these bikes. (I road the Dunelt until the frame gave out, I had a cheap odometer on it that had broken at 22,000 miles, and I rode it for years after that, about 27 miles, 6 days a week, for about 5 years). The only thing I did to that bike was a few chains and sets of tires. Yet it the wheels still had their chrome. They were the Dunlop rims like on my Robin Hood, in fact, the two bikes are very similar. I have seen several cases where the inner wall was worse than the outside rim, but never one that was all the way through.
Has anyone had any experience getting rims rechromed? I have saved several that are straight and dent free, but are worn or pitted too bad to use.
| It's like fishing with a really small boat. You put in your line and pull up all sorts of fish you don't want cause they're too small, or you pull up boots and tires and books of cliches. Anyway my strategy is just to keep my line in the water looking till I find something I want with a fair price. If it's a sports you're after just wait for a different example with a better price. |
| sorry this is a reply to the post below, hit the wrong button.|
| Hear, Hear!|
And may all those overpriced old boots be chucked straight back to the slimy ooze they come from.
I waited half a year (and two of his failed eBay auctions) and I got the owner of a beautiful 1979 Rudge DL-1 to come down from $600 to $100 - and I got it. The good stuff is still out there at good prices...you just have to know where to look - and it pays to be a good friend of the LBS owners as well...they'll keep their eyes out for you as well.
| What gives? |
I'm happy to see these bikes go for more dosh these days. But this price tag is as silly as the price of housing here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
And then there's the threat to list on eBay, "where it may command a considerably higher price given its condition..." Hmmph.
Yet, I wonder, am I missing something here?
| Hmmmm... appears the ad was composed by a "Marketing Genius" (no offence). Albeit, it's a very clean example and if it had originally been procured in Jolly Ole England, howcome no full chaincase?|
If his target market is willing to bear the price, I suppose it may sell in that range. Not to me though!
Larry "Boneman" Bone
| Remember, the dealing here works opposite to Ebay. He posts his dream price ($650) and sells it if he gets an offer (much less) that he'll accept. At an estate sale, he might have spent $100 for this bike if he was unlucky. It's in nice shape, he might make a decent profit yet.|
| I don't think you fellows have realized this yet, but this is the 1967 Sports that sold on eBay a few weeks ago for $360:|
It's rather obvious that the seller thinks he got a great bargain on eBay, and wants to make an 100% profit on his costs.
| P.S.: Notice he replaced the front brake cable, that's it.|
| I'll be darned.... it sure looks like the same one, eh?|
Larry "Boneman" Bone
| Trust me on this one Larry - it is the same one. I've never been wrong yet. |
The missing gold seattube decal, the faded right-hand "Raleigh Sports" script, the whitewalls, the unique wear of the B66 saddle (Mark that! a B66, not a B72, the latter being stock on the Sports), the coaster-brake TCW hub (note the lack of a rear brake lever), it all matches.
Incedentally, I don't know where he gets the idea it's a '62. The auction stated it as a '67, and the decals corrispond to a '67. A 1962 Sports would have large "RALEIGH" downtube decals, the same decal, incedentally, that is used on the '67's chainguard.
| Someone locally is selling a Herdle. Pic looks like typical english 3-sp from 50's or 60's. Anyone ever heard of the make and is it worth acquiring?|
| I'm cleaning up a pile of brake calipers from 60's English 3-speeds. (They are chrome with "Made in England" on the rear arm.) I want to run a die over the main bolts to clean up the threads. I mic'ed them at 1/4" x 30!!? Can that be right? The closest die I have is 1/4" x 28. If you can help, I'd appreciate an e-mail from you.|
(I'm the guy who is listing, but not necessarily selling, miscellaneous salvaged bike parts on eBay. I can't bring myself to toss old parts away until they've been passed over.)
I'll be out of e-contact for about a week, but will follow up asap.
| I have said before that many threads on British Bicycles are British Standard Cycle Thread. It isn't commonly known here in the UK, but the threads don't match other British Threads. There is much confusion, especially when or if whitworth threads are used too. Some manufacturers used both or mixtures of either and interchanged them! I have known two models of the same make to be equipped with different threads on matching components.|
Here we go the info you need to sort out BSC threads!
Whoopee, Matthew strikes again!
Also try this which is a table of results and applications for the various threads.
Ta da! Matthew - unravelling threads!
| Thanks for the websites, Matthew,|
I checked them both; a lot of good information. I didn't find exactly what I was looking for,(1/4" x 30 tpi), but I found out more than I ever wanted to know about British hardware. (And I thought French bikes were complicated.) Bob