FOR SALE:   Lots of vintage cycling parts, mostly Brittish. posted by: Peter Naiman on 7/27/2008 at 11:54:42 AM
I'm selling a very large lot of "Vintage" cycling parts. I will take Paypal, or other payment types with "guaranteed next day shipping by USPS Priority Mail". If you think my prices are too high, reasonable offers are welcome. Pics of all parts are available.

1952 Maes 15" ctc Alloy bars $25.00 15" alloy bars ctc Rare engraved
one side Primo extra, other side Giro Disicilia map showing Palermo,Messina $35.00

GB Stem 4" with allen key binder bolt $35.00 SR? 2 12" alloy stem $30.00

Lucifer Baby 800 dynamo with wire and rear red light $50.00

Stronglight 49d cranks English pedal thread, with 52/48 chainrings 170s Marked Deposee with bolts caps and spindleSCM 85-d. $75.00.

Stronglight 49d Right side crank ONLY Marque Deposee 170 9/16 thread. $30.00

Stronglight 49d double ring set 52x40 $40.00
Stronglight 49d Double ring set 52-42 $40.00
Stronglight 49d inner ring 40 th $15.00 TA ring set 49d 50x45 $45.00
TA inner ring NOS 42 $25.00

Solido Steel cottered crank set $25.00

Lyotard Berthet pedals 50s $35.00 can be used on Pre-war bikes through the early 60s.
Lyotard Berthet pedals 60-70s $25.00

Older TA Handlebar mount bottle cage $45.00

Campag REAL old Alloy and chrome rear hub 40 HOLE! NO quick release chrome not good VERY old Camapg logo $50.00

Campag 32 hole front hub one piece alloy 60-70s hub $35.00 or B/O.

Pair of wheels Alloy rims 36 hole Wolber Gentleman GTA rims, built on Brampton chrome large flange front hub, plus very rare Sturmy Archer five speed BLOCK hub large flange rear chrome hub to make a nice period wheelset $175.00 or B/O. Very nice set !!

NOS Reynols 1/2 X 3/32s chain in original box. $50.

NOS TDC single speed freewheel, 20 tooth, brittish thread. $40 or B/O
Miscellanoius period chains, 1/2 X 3/32, used and free with any purchase above.

Lycett Swallow saddle, Leather overall is in good shape, but has one 3/4" tear around front rivet. Chrome rails are very nice. $60 or B/O.

Set of Mafac brake handles with no rubbers in nice shape. $15.00.

NOS Benotto Handles Bar Tape in original package. Asking $7.99 a set.
3-Blue
2-Green

Phillips 18 tooth single speed freewheel in good condition. Brit thread. $15.00.
Phillips 20 tooth single speed freewheel in good condition. Brit thread $15.00.

Set of four Shimano alloy wingnuts I guess from the early 60s ?? $25.00

One set of Altenberger rear wingnuts, alloy, and excellent condition $25.00.

Rare Sturmy Archer stem from the 1940s or 1950s. 70mm $35.00

Very nice GB Stem, 1950s. 120mm. $25.00

Maillard 14-28 touring freewheel. Brit thread. $10.00

Regards,
Peter Naiman

Milwaukee, WI











































by: 69.210.43.242







AGE / VALUE:   `49 Raleigh posted by: James Nation on 7/27/2008 at 8:06:40 AM
I must be an idiot. I keep trying to use the price guide on this web-site and it won`t give me a price on any comparible bikes. It gives me a great description and I click price it sends me to google and target adds. If someone could find it in their heart to give me an approx. value of a `49 raleigh DL in good condition? much oblidged
by: 98.216.121.233


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   `49 Raleigh posted by David on 7/27/2008 at 10:58:55 AM
It all depends on condition, doesn't it? I doubt that a 49 Raleigh is going to command much of a premium over a 59 or 69 version of the same machine. (I failed to do very well on the sale of a VG 49 Sports) So you're looking at anywhere from a hundred or so up to nearly a grand - all depending on condition. Put it on ebay and see what you get.
by: 216.15.114.27

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   `49 Raleigh posted by Christopher on 7/27/2008 at 11:49:29 AM
Post a picture here of the bike, and let us comment on it. condition, completeness, originality, is important.
David said it well, things fluctuate. sometimes they sell for $75.00 and other times it goes up to $388.00 whatever
a 1949 bike should get a bit more$$ than a later made one as the quiality was better then.
I look for the older bikes, myself but that's just me and the later made stuff does well also.
Take good pictures and put it up on e- bay.
Good Luck!
by: 161.226.4.6






AGE / VALUE:   Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by: Don on 7/27/2008 at 8:01:41 AM
I'm helping my dad settle the estate of an old friend. In his barn an old hercules bike was found hanging up on a rafter.

The bike Has just 1 speed. No gears. It says "hercules made in england" on the handlbars. On the rear hub there are numbers... CCM 37 and "made in canada patented 1937"

I don't have any pics right now but would appreciate any help identifying this bike and potential value for an upcoming estate sale.

thank you!
by: 72.231.148.159


   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/27/2008 at 6:13:49 PM
I just talked to my dad. He told me it is a ladies frame. It has a red body, red rims, white fenders, white hand grips, a brown seat and a silver chain guard. It has a wire basket on the front. It has a cloth pad (possibly a bag?) held on the rear fender by black clamps.

It has no hand brakes. Dad says it's probably too early for that. He thought it just had the pedal brake where you push backwards on the pedals with your feet. The rear hub says CCM 37. The bike is in mint shape with nice paint. I should have pics of it in the next couple days.

I'd be curious to hear what you guys think it might be. Thanks!
by: 72.231.148.159

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/27/2008 at 6:18:57 PM
I forgot to mention that is is an adult bike. There is no lights or bell. It appears to be complete.
by: 72.231.148.159

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Warren on 7/27/2008 at 7:23:05 PM
My best guess is that you've likely got a womens Herc roadster that's had the original Hercules or Perry rear hub fail and they swapped in the wheelset from a CCM roadster. CCM was known for their painted rimes...here's a shot of what yours likely looks like.

http://oldroads.com/oldroads_files/329_23.jpg


To answer your original question, the value of the bike is only as good as what a buyer will pay on that day. Even in great original condition, it may be hard to get $200 for it. With subbed in parts, maybe half of that. But you never know.
by: 24.215.84.13

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/28/2008 at 5:11:00 AM
In looking at pics of 1930's hercules bikes...especially the roadster... they so all seem to have hand brakes. The bike I am asking about does not. Was there a 1930's herc that didn't have hand brakes?

thanks
by: 72.231.148.159

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Warren on 7/28/2008 at 9:08:14 AM
No doubt there were. Single speed bikes with coaster brake hubs were made by just about everyone although the multi speed bikes (with hand brakes) were marketed more thoroughly. It's why you won't find as many pics. The Eadie and Perry coaster hubs were common on Brit bikes....CCM in Canada, New Departure in the USA.

Detailed pics will help to date the bike. Headbadge, dropouts, bottom bracket, serial number
by: 24.215.84.13

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Chris on 7/27/2008 at 12:15:28 PM
Can you post pictures here of the bike or give a web address where pictures of the bike can be viewed?

I love Hercules bikes very much! Do a Wikipedia search for Hercules Cycle and Motor Co: go to the links for- and visit the: "Made in Birmingham" web site!

Hercules was a real tough and savy compettitor against Raleigh who tried and failed, to buy them out in the 1930's. At one point, Hercules was going to introduce a rival 3 speed hub to go head to head in competition against Sturmey- Archer!
That was going to be a real problem, it was red alert time! The Hercules 3 speed hubs were better!
It nearly happened! Bowden squashed that from happening but the buy out negiotiations broke down and the Hercules Cycle and Motor company went on to independently be a thorn in Raleigh's butt for years longer. They were sold in 1946 to the company they got the tubing from. (Tube Investments), who later pulled off a huger merger with the British Cycle Corporation.
There were the two( Tube Investments and B.C.C.) huge powerhouse dynasties who each held rights to most all of the famous British cycle companies, suppliers, trademark names e.t.c. these two merged together in 1960 which was a time of decline in the market. It was all transferred to Nottingham, away from another center of bicycle production, Birmingham. Much of the deliciously different, variations vanished as Raleigh with her newly expanded Nottingham factory was selected to manufacture all the different makes and models that were all now, essentially b- grade Raleigh's.

Hercules came with the merger in 1960 but by then, the sun was setting.

The Sturmey Archer people with Frank Bowden covered their tracks with a Hercules Cycle and Motor 3 speed hub that was a better made copy of the Sturmey- Archer hub. There was a whole other revolutionaly hub in the works

Canada sold a ton of British bicycles but used a lot of Canada Cycle and Motor (C.C.M.) hubs in the bike it was common practice in Canada where the huge C.C.M. bicycle maker used and sold a lot of British parts.

Originally, the bike possibly had a British made rear hub but Hercules was the largest cycle maker in the world at one point, and they ruled the 1930's and they imported bikes all over the world and into Canada big time!
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Chris on 7/27/2008 at 1:27:27 PM
Mens or ladies frame? What color? is it complete? rod or cable operated brakes?
please describe it better for us.
it is an adults bicycle or a childs bike? please post a picture?

Does it have a bell, a rear rack? any light set? how is the chrome? how is the condition of the paint?
Hercules was Huge!
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Warren on 7/28/2008 at 4:55:00 PM
Your bike may be as late as the 50's or 60's. The CCM 37 hub wasn't widely distributed until after WWII. Chrome chainguards were typically 60's (if it's original.)
by: 24.215.84.13

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/28/2008 at 6:07:29 PM
Here is the only pic I have of it. Hopefully you can view it. Any ideas as to what it is exactly and what I should price this at for the estate sale?

thanks


by: 72.231.148.159


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/28/2008 at 6:17:43 PM
Here's another pic. I thought I only had one. The chain guard looks very art deco.


by: 72.231.148.159


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Warren on 7/28/2008 at 7:36:24 PM
It's not a Hercules...its a CCM Roadster. The Hercules on the hub is a model name for CCM. There's a serial number on the seat post lug. Check it here and you'll know what date it is.

http://oldroads.com/oldroads_files/329_24.jpg

The chain guard is not original. I'm thinking it's late 50's with the white fenders. Let us know.
by: 24.215.84.13

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/28/2008 at 8:24:42 PM
Thanks - but why would it say hercules on the handlebar clamp?


by: 72.231.148.159


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/28/2008 at 8:48:45 PM
I wondered what the cloth thing was on the rear rack then I noticed the little foldable foot pegs. It must be a seat for a child!? I've never seen folding passenger footpegs on a bike.


by: 72.231.148.159


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Warren on 7/29/2008 at 3:02:52 PM
The handlebars, chainguard and set are not original to the bike. Just a coincidence that the hub was also a Hercules and led you down that path.
by: 24.215.80.176

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by don on 7/29/2008 at 3:25:33 PM
thanks - what is its value?
by: 72.231.148.159

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Warren on 7/29/2008 at 3:35:57 PM
Ballpark is $75 to $150. Womens frames are less desirable, it's not all original and it's missing the CCM head badge.
by: 24.215.80.176

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Christopher on 7/29/2008 at 5:25:19 PM
It's a fine ladies frame bike in really good condition in all C.C.M'S winsome glory. A nice bike to cherish, really. Thanks for the pictures, stay in touch and let us know what you get for it if you do try to sell it. I love the original tires!
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Help identifying a Hercules Bike posted by Chris on 7/29/2008 at 5:26:27 PM
Brings back memories of C.C.M. Thanks again!
by: 161.226.4.6






AGE / VALUE:   `49 raleigh DL posted by: James Nation on 7/26/2008 at 4:16:01 PM
I would like to know the value of my Raleigh 1949 DL with lights and danish rattrap. rides great, no rust.
by: 98.216.121.233







ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by: Kurt K. on 7/26/2008 at 12:34:21 PM
Hello fellows,

I was blessed with a visit from Spencer Howell (Some of you might recall his postings from 7/2 and 7/12.) and his DL-1 this morning.

Sure enough, his machine is most interesting, for it is most certainly not of Nottingham descent. Not a single part of it is entirely identical to the components from the DL-1s from the Nottingham facilities - right down to the paint job, which is slightly thicker then the Nottingham paint of the 1970's.

It in itself is a 1978 machine, but there are no indications, decal-wise, as to the location of manufacture. Serial number is of the final system that was used after 1973, in this case, the serial sits to the left side of the seat tube - KS800042. Anyone know what the K stands for? Raleigh's South African facilities, by any chance?

I was given the privilege to photograph this machine for future reference of Raleigh road

Copy/paste these links into your browser:

Full 3/4 shot:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_1.jpg

Chaincase:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_2.jpg

Saddle and aftermarket rack:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_3.jpg

Fork/headtube:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_4.jpg

Front brake:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_5.jpg

Headtube:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_6.jpg

Rear fender (Reflector original to original purchase in 1980):
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_7.jpg

Headbadge closeup:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_8.jpg

Seattube decal (Differing from both the U.S. Rampar "R" logo, and the Nottingham export decal with a large Sir Walter):
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_9.jpg

Sir Walter logo at the pedal end of the crankset, not at the edge of the spindle):
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_10.jpg

Rear dropout:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_11.jpg

Original Raleigh Roadster tires marked "Foreign" in place of the usual "Made In Austria" as one would find on machines from Nottingham:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_12.jpg

Singlespeed rear hub with Sir Walter:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_13.jpg

Original pump:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_14.jpg

Rims stamped "Raleigh" quite unlike any rims from Nottingam . Note that the factory that produced this machine still uses the 32/40 pattern as opposed to the 36/40 used on the post '73 machines from Nottingham:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_15.jpg

The all important serial. Sitting to the left side of the tube as opposed to at the rear of the frame as on the Nottingham machines:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/SpencerH_78_DL1_serial.jpg

Take care,

-Kurt
by: 74.233.119.32


   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 7/27/2008 at 2:19:31 PM
Be nice to Spencer and let him ride with group as one of us as often as he chooses. It makes for an interesting conversation piece.
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 7/27/2008 at 2:24:39 PM
"trapped ends" went all the way up to the end in 1987.

Its one for the: Old Roads. com "X- files section." wheel it down to the basement for Mulder and Scully.
Thai rice is delicious, her bicycles? not so hot.
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Kurt K. on 7/27/2008 at 6:23:24 PM
Keith:

Cotter (not cotter "pin") problem noted a couple of times over with Spencer. For the record, the left cotter is a 6mm, not a 6.5, and the left arm is subsequently loose. He already has the 6.5's, and has a future date with the LBS to have them installed.

Frame geometry and lugs are absolutely without any variation from a Nottingham-made DL-1. I had my 1973 U.S.-spec DL-1

http://www.jaysmarine.com/1976_dl1_ph_fin_1.jpg

along with my 1979 Nottingham-made, Curacao-export Rudge DL-1

http://www.jaysmarine.com/rudge_79dl1_041708_1a.jpg
http://www.jaysmarine.com/rudge_79dl1_041708_4.jpg

outside with Spencer's machine, and in these two respects there were no differences. Quality and similarity to Nottingham construction aside, this machine WAS intended to be a licensed Raleigh DL-1.

What, may I ask, shows that the rear rim was not laced from factory? Looks like the usual 4-cross pattern to me, though it may look slightly different from the smaller diameter of the singlespeed hub as opposed to a Sturmey AW/FW or AG/FG.

Rear facing drops were standard on the DL-1 until their eradication from the Raleigh lineup as Chris indicated. I do not recall if this detail was shared with some of the 26"-wheeled models with similar relaxed-geometry from the '30s, but if so, that is pretty much not even an issue in this case.

Chris:

I wouldn't say it is illegitimate. Perhaps a licensed model of slightly differing construction from the Nottingham machines, but a genuine "Raleigh" according to Raleigh themselves.

I wouldn't criticize its quality too much for a late '70s machine either - when Spencer's rod stays and nice paint is compared to the cheap wire stays and thin paint of the Nottingham-made DL-1 examples sent to the States in 1978 (and for that matter, my Curacao '79 export), I'd say that it is somewhat better in quality, in a way, if somewhat unconventional.

Example of rough, thin Nottingham paint on the '79 Rudge:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/rudge_79dl1_041708_2.jpg

As a matter of fact, the thicker paint upon my first seeing it reminded me immidiately of the true Raleigh oven-baked paint on my three '51 Sports "C" Tourists. Rather thick, but rock hard and full of luster after a few wipes of Meguiars Scratch X.

I would not through the idea of Indian production to the wind - not enough fact to state absolutes upon, though Thailand isn't a bad guess either. But were Raleigh factories known to have existed in these countries in the '70s?

What I found most amazing about that B.33 knockoff was the fact that it was marked "RALEIGH" on the rear badge. Should have stuck my nose under the saddle just in case it had any possible identification markings. I dare say the bottom bracket spindle might have some secrets stamped on it too.

Take care,

-Kurt

P.S.: While we're on the subject of Raleighs produced in other locations, does anyone here have another example of a machine not having been built in Nottingham (with exception of the more common Irish Raleighs and Gazelle-produced machines)? I'd like to see if I can positively identify that "K" in the serial.
by: 98.64.13.125

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Keith Body on 7/28/2008 at 11:32:11 AM
Kurt, My knowledge of cycles is from the 1950 / 1960 era, when I sold and repaired Raleigh, BSA, and others, and specialised in racing equipment in the UK. The "cotter pin" was .375 inch, threaded .25 x 24 tpi, and I used to buy boxes of 1 gross nickel plated (144) for about $3.(Not to be confused with split cotters (split pins).
In this case it has been fitted the opposite way round, it should be tapped in from the other side of the crank.
I'm glad someone else agrees that this thing is rubbish.
Measure the frame angles, the more modern Raleighs were around 70 degree head and seat angle, these pictures look about 65 degrees. Commonly for use over rough roads.
The cotter pin job, either replace or refit is about 5 minutes with 2 light hammers and suitable spanner (wrench)
The Raleigh roadsters that you love were sold as daily working transport, not at all for recreation purposes. We had far better bikes for pleasure riding, also about one third of the weight. I (at 75 years old) still have a 1980 racer with Clement 6 ounce silk tubulars, weighing under 20 pounds.
Note: the wheel is laced with the top cross tucked under, never done in big factories. (A few seconds extra time) I used to buy spokes 14400 at a time, and could loose assemble a wheel like that in 3 minutes.
Kind regards, Keith
by: 195.93.21.98

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Keith Body on 7/28/2008 at 12:54:48 PM
Kurt, just managed to view your Rudge. This design would, by 1960, have been referred to as a "police bike", by that time unsaleable in the UK, and an object of total derision. I think it is a copy of about a 1925 style, with some later components. Believe me, the "trapped ends" by 1960 were only used on the very cheapest of cycles in the UK.
Obviously there was a local demand somewhere for these antique styles (possibly Jamaica?). You have a bit of "cotter pin" problem on the Rudge, the cranks should be at 180 degrees, and the cotter is inserted downwards when the crank faces the rear, quite important, even if you have to file them to fit, should be about 10 minutes work for a pair.
Apologies for misunderstanding your collection.
Regards Keith

by: 195.93.21.98

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 7/28/2008 at 3:09:54 PM
Keith,
Welcome to the group here and I'm pleased to read your post. Please stay and teach and enlighten us.

regards, Chris
by: 71.40.121.191

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 7/27/2008 at 9:53:28 AM
Very nice machine. Drooling towel recommended!

Kurt WHO? ;-)

Later!

Larry "Boneman" Bone - Hey... I've heard of that guy!
by: 4.154.217.138

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Keith Body on 7/27/2008 at 12:17:22 PM
Good pics, first comment: cotter pin on chainwheel side is backwards.
From the look of the very shallow frame angles, and it tells us it's from the Bahamas, could it have been produced in the far east, guessing Malaysia? Or somewhere in Africa?
Its a cheap frame with "trapped ends", these mostly were phased out by Raleigh in UK in the 1930's. Some parts look like Nottingham Raleigh, but the frame lugs, head bearing set don't.
It's spoked 32/40, but the back wheel was not large factory built, (see the lace up) has it had rim or wheel replacement?
Might be interesting to see if the chain has a makers stamp, could be original
by: 195.93.21.98

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Christopher on 7/27/2008 at 2:14:33 PM
It's a poor quality illegimate bastard, and I'm still chewing this one over as to a guess what alley of the world gave birth to it. Certainly not from England or Ireland. The African made bikes were of way better quality being a quite worthy heir/ off shoot to the original Nottingham ones and they have a distince smaller badge that says "The Raleigh Springs, South Africa." on the badge. South African bikes did not say Nottinghan and/ or England in them.
I have seen extreme high quality whitewall tires out of the Bahamas but those were from the 1950's. I think Raleigh did have an assembly shop in the Bahamas? No, this was imported into and worked on and sold through a local shop in the Bahamas. More investigation into the exact nature of the Bahamas bicycle situation as it referrs to Raleigh's bicycles is in order. But No, rule out the Bahamas.
Not India either, as her quality was better than this monstrosity. India makes truely wonderful rims and tires that are worth coveting. Whole bikes of better quality than this.

My best guess is: Thailand.
it fits with what I have been seeing out of Thailand offered on e- bay.
The cranks are crude! Wow! that large Sir Walter and in the wrong place too!

Ugly pedals too. functional rear rack but also ugly.
the cheap reflector is a replacement for a missing original and I believe that is from the Wald Company.
crude rims! Yuck!

Interesting, very intetresting. I will send a wreath and offer my condolances to the unfortunate owner. What bothers me, is the Nottingham, England decals all over this thing.

Never seen this type headset before, that is what I marveled at, was the headset.
The leather seat,( Brooks copy)
Cheap rod brake parts too!

Where it's from I don't exactly know but my guess is from Thailand

by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Matthew on 7/28/2008 at 3:25:44 PM
Okay folks, my four pennyworth on the subject. The frame angles are twenties / early thirties and the bike might be a 'colonial' model. If it is 1978 then it isn't British. The lettering is very 1970s and so the bike may well be that new. By the 1970s we had the elegant Raleigh Royal Roadster on sale in the UK which was an up market re-issue of what you guys in the 'states call a DL-1 (though it was never called such here) The Royal Roadster was not a Superbe. The rear brake 'bridge' at the top of the bottom tube near the headstock is of Rudge design and therefore not from the twenties or thirties as a Raleigh that age would not have featured Rudge pattern parts.

I am going to take issue with Keith on this one. In the 1960s Raleigh and her allies made the £15 bike which was sold at this price to match the grant given to Policemen and Traffic wardens to purchase their own bicycles. The £15 model is approximately what is known as a 'sports' (not a Lenton) in the 'states. The rod braked Superbe was still available at that time but was more expensive. The £15 bike had a sprung saddle similar to a Terry's with plastic or Rexine covering, cables brakes, very cheap pressed steel levers, 40 spoke rear wheel and SA AW hub (or single speed?) and rather plain but functional cream handle bar grips.

The bike we see here is most likely to be produced in a Raleigh outpost, which makes it all the more enjoyable and interesting, just look at this thread!

Matthew - more than meets the eye.
by: 86.27.175.100

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by David on 7/28/2008 at 4:02:35 PM
I prefer the position of the driveside cotter on this bike myself, as the rounded end of the cotter doesn't catch your cuff as easily as the hex nut does. But... you need to have 'em both the same direction or you'll have the problem this bike has, the crank arms are not 180 deg apart. It must feel quite weird to pedal it!
by: 216.15.114.27

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Kurt K. on 7/28/2008 at 11:02:19 PM
Keith:

You do have me there on the cotters, for I meant to say 9.5mm, not 6.5. Had the 9 flipped over in my head, don't know why.

The Rudge was the unfortunate recipient of a hammer-happy cotterjob at a previous time in its life, hence the awful dent on the top of the chaincase. Even though I have owned it for a few years, I have yet to have the chance to rectify it, for I do not ride it much.

That said, I do not know where you seem to get your information about the extent of DL-1 production. As Chris said, DL-1 production continued until 1987 in Raleigh's offshoot facilities, and at least here in the States, the Nottingham-built DL-1's were sold until 1982. Yes, until 1982 in their trapped end (I assume this is an English term for rear-facing dropout) and 65-degree seattube/headtube angle glory. See these catalog images:

1970:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_Raleigh_Cat_70_14.html

1978:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_Raleigh_Cat_78_16.html

1981:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_Raleigh_Cat_81_12n13.html
(Take particular note of the geometries between the DL-1 and the Sports - 65 and 70 degrees, respectively. Ignore the Japanese-made Roadster AW at the bottom).

The 70 degree angles and conventional dropouts you refer to were used on the Sports, Superbe, Dawn, first-generation EA3-wheel'ed Sprites and derivatives of that frame design. They did not eradicate the DL-1 from the lineup - there was a coexistence.

For that matter, the DL-1 remained virtually un-changed from its appearance in the '30s which is the earliest variant I am reasonably familiar with. Of course, there was the slight retooling of lugs and dropouts when Tube Industries took over in 1960, but it remained virtually the same nevertheless.

I'm not attempting to say that the '70s models were superior to the '50s machines. They were not, and frankly, TI's takeover was the beginning of a very fast ride downhill, in my opinion, but I do not negate the entire merit of the later machines under that fact just the same.

Spokes crossed under was never done by the Nottingham factory, I'll grant you that, but we cannot say with the slightest of certainty as to what the other Raleigh factories were up to at the time. Frankly, I find it most revolting that any factory would even consider lacing up a wheel without crossing it as intended by the very nature of their design, and I've only seen it on Nottingham-built Raleigh Sports, Sprites, Superbes and DL-1s, for that matter (haven't seen enough of the Competitions, Internationals, or Professionals to say, though I would certainly assume these to be crossed properly).

Maybe it is an English thing with cheaper utility bikes, but I haven't seen it on their quality machines - your having owned a quality machine (I assume from the fact that it runs tubular rims, for you don't mention the brand) of many years should be evident of it, for that matter. No racer, or for that matter, tourer in his right mind would run about on a wheel that was laced as Nottingham would do.

Matthew:

See above - the DL-1 model was produced in Nottingham as late as 1982 for the U.S. market.

On the subject of the Royal Roadster, tell me something: I've seen two entirely different machines with this namesake. One is essentially the standard "DL-1" as below:

http://www.ciclistica.it/images/IM000061.JPG
(not mine)

And the other variant which seems to be far more common is essentially a reincarnations of the Raleigh Dawn (a Sports with rod brakes - EA3 wheels, 70 degree frame geometry, forward drops):

http://bp3.blogger.com/_jJ0sP-ob6Go/SCbpn_rcO0I/AAAAAAAAALo/26LjQy6fpWA/s1600-h/Aug+2006+Canon+003.jpg
(again, not mine)

Both date from the '80s. How were the two differing models marketed on your side of the pond?

Take care all,

-Kurt

by: 74.233.53.240

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 7/29/2008 at 9:24:51 AM
I took delivery in 1988 of one of very the last 5 whole complete 28 inch wheel rod brake Royal Roadsters bicycles. there were 5 left in wharehouse and not in the system, these were held for Raleigh bigwigs . Two came up for sale the other three were definitely hands off. I got one. My friend got the other. It was green, horrible thick powder coat paint a locking fork, no light kit brooks leather seat the works.

I had it shipped from the company to Heathrow to a local shop where they did me the unathorized favor of assembling it for me. I caught hell from my distributor friend who supplied the shop thru normal means. He went thru the roof, call the shop owner who commented that I had gone too far that time. I was buying parts direct from the company thru a employee contact and the chance came up to buy the unbuyable and it had the trapped ends.

It was a 24 inch frame too.

they stopped bringing over the black Raleigh tourist D.L.1. with the wire stays in 1980 that was the last year they were sold here. 1980 was it.

When exactly, the rod brake Raleigh's were discontinued in England I am unsure because the bikes we got were made up from leftover parts the company had and these were in basically secret storage, off of the computer list, company system held for company officials as gifts. I paid about 400.00 pounds sterling in 1988 plus shipping thru a transport company that socked me it was about 750.00 British pounds sterling when it was all done. expensive.
It came with a letter stating it was one of the last 5 to leave Nottingham.

I have covered 18 states, most of canada, had distribtor friends, shop owners, done a lot thru the phone where I'd ring up shops overseas and I chased these, really chased these, swap meets, collectors, ultra collectors,
read books and bike magazines yet i have never set foot in Europe so with all I have done I still sit quiet and listen to Mathew who likes in the u.k. but what he says occaisionally does not agree with what I have seen and learned and experienced and Mathew is one of my teachers, in fact you all are.

It is easy go get lost and confused trying to understand this. we had one version sent to the states but as Mathew rightly says they had quite different versions made at the same time, in the same factory, in England for their home market in England.

Imagine a whole long line of Encyclopedias taking up a whole wall. this set of encloypedias would be Raleigh bicycles year by year, and it would cover each country. This was (and is) a huge dynasty, intertwined and complex and it is not an easy task for collectors.

I especially like to hear from shop owners who were there.
by: 71.40.121.191

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Matthew on 7/29/2008 at 10:53:55 AM
Hi Kurt and fellow readers,

No this isn't what I would recognise http://bp3.blogger.com/_jJ0sP-ob6Go/SCbpn_rcO0I/AAAAAAAAALo/26LjQy6fpWA/s1600-h/Aug+2006+Canon+003.jpg

But this is http://www.ciclistica.it/images/IM000061.JPG

Sadly Raleigh were not above badge engineering and profiteering on a good name be it a brand or a model. The blogger picture appears to be nothing to write home about and a sad shadow of what a Royal Roadster should be. They were marketed as high end retro before retro was fashionable. They sold to retired gents who wanted a piece of nostalgia, which makes me think that there are some lying around almost untouched in sheds and garages, owned by octogenarians who hardly ever rode them.

We ought to remember that shops large and small had stock which wasn't the year model. So a 1983 built bicycle could well be for sale 3 years later or longer after its birth.

The joy of this DB is the great variety of skill and information available here.

Matthew - young enough to remember - old enough to recall.
by: 82.13.20.162

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Matthew on 7/29/2008 at 11:09:16 AM
Then of course there is:-
http://www.herocycles.com/images/gent

Hero, the world's largest bicycle manufacturer, 18500 bikes built every day.

I am not suggesting that Spencer's bike is anything less than original. I trust Kurt implicitly regarding provenence and dating a bicycle. However the Hero Royal shows that the design lives on. The Hero cycle company history is interesting.

Hero group was started by the four Munjal brothers, hailing from a small town called Kamalia, now in Pakistan in the year 1944 by establishing bicycle spare parts business in Amritsar. After independence and partition of India, they moved to Ludhiana and started a bicycle unit called Hero Cycles in 1956. By 1975, Hero cycles became the largest bicycle manufacturer in India. Info sourced from Wikipedia and Hero Cycles.com

Matthew - so much to learn


by: 82.13.20.162


   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 7/29/2008 at 5:56:02 PM
Perhaps the worst thing for Don to see on the bike was the horrible powder coat paint that the bike wore. He got quiet after his tantrum and he wiped tears away from his eyes. Seeing how Raleigh cheapened their paintwork had an effect on the man. Raleigh's had very good paint. We all stood around it with Don stooped down on one knee to look it over. No one specific shop employed me so my antics couldn't get me fired. He took the shop's order and left.

These bikes are famous.
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 7/29/2008 at 6:03:08 PM
Perhaps somebody got a batch of original decals and just got happy trying to legitimize the bike. Raleigh got skittish about their decals for this reason.
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Kurt K. on 7/29/2008 at 6:16:41 PM
Impossible when one would have had to engrave all the brightwork I've pointed out already. Can't be from another frameset either, for each component is, in its own way, different from their Nottingham counterparts. Don't forget the fact that the serial system matches the standardized Raleigh format as dictated from their 1973 bulletin.

Don't know about you, but I've long abandoned the thought of it being an unauthorized rebadge. It might not be to some of our tastes in terms of build quality, but that doesn't mean a thing - the late Nottingham machines were no better.

-Kurt
by: 74.233.53.183

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by spencer on 7/30/2008 at 7:04:10 AM
My thanks for all the information on my bicycle. I am guilty for installing cotters incorrectly after my originals stripped when I tried to tighten them maybe 18 years ago.
Nothing has been changed, the cycle is as I purchased it in Nassau at "Cycles Unlimited". I have spoken with the company and e-mailed them asking for details of its assembly and where it or its parts were purchased but so far no information. I would require an oldtimer in their mechanical staff and perhaps no one is left.
My parents purchased an Elswick cycle for me in the Bahamas in around 1953 for $40. I loved it, it was stolen when I was in elementary school. I had other cycles, Dunelt, even a few Raleigh's but none like my Elswick. Many years later I was in Nassau and picked up the phone book, looking for bicycles, I saw an illustration of my old Elswick. We went to the shop and I found the bike in the photos. I had a summer fellowship in England in the mid 60's and saw policemen in the country patrolling on such a cycle. I bought the gents cycle, they also had a ladies model. We took it apart to pack in a box and brought it home to Florida on the airplane.
I have ridden this cycle for many years and didn't take particular care of it, but didn't abuse it. I do not use the brakes very much but plan ahead when riding.
I have Cuban inlaws and know many other people from different South American countries who see my bike and remember seeing such cycles in their own countries from years past. I do not know whether they were "Raleighs" or not.
I had no idea that there was so much interest in the details of the history of these bikes and have learned quite alot about them from all the kind and some unkind messages that have appeared. I would not call it ugly or tawdry or cheap, it draws lots of positive comments when we go riding around town and is a pleasure to ride. Of course, there are not many hills here! All this started when I began looking on the computer for used or available replacement parts!
So, if the numbers suggest that it is a Hero from either India or Pakistan or both, which, as I understand did have Raleigh factories in the past, fine. As I said earlier, once I opened the rear of the chain case to look at the chain and try to oil it and saw that the rear sproket was stamped "made in Nigeria"...I have always been puzzled by that but just continued. I have heard that Raleigh did have an assembly plant in Nigeria, too.
Thanks to everyone for the interesting history.
by: 72.46.240.196

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Keith Body on 7/30/2008 at 2:38:03 PM
Hi All
Kurt: Perhaps I should have researched first, but have been looking at the excellent Sheldon Brown site. He has scanned some Raleigh UK catalogues, the one from 1951 shows no shallow angle monsters, and the only "trapped ends" are a trademans and childrens. I sold and repaired all these, but by 1958 was selling lightweight racing type equipment and repairing anything. I had not considered that Raleigh were supplying the "colonial" market, and would not have known about it.
Spencer: Your bike has certainly caused some interest, for which I must assume some responsibility.
Matthew: By 1960 my shop stock normally carried 300/400 tubular tyres, a fair range of "wired on", and one pair each of 28x1.5 and 26x1.5 just gathering dust at the back somewhere. By then very few were in use.


You probably would not believe how soft the Raleigh cold rolled and electric seam welded tubing really was. You should have seen me tracking up the front forks that bent so easily. I could save people buying new. Just clamp the fork column in a strong vice, put my left hand on the bend usually less than half way down the blade, and pull the fork end forwards with the right hand. Really that soft.
A Reynolds fork would need 2 hands and a foot against the front of the bench, and then was really tough.

Chris: My last bikes purchased were 1979, 2 De Rosa with Campagnolo Super Record Titanium set, Columbus SL tubing Mavic "blue" SSC rims (as used by neutral service in the Tour de France) quite heavy at 13 ounces, but very strong. These bikes cost £500 each complete.


I had considerable experience of rebuilding Sturmey Archer gears, the AW is really very simple and easy to take apart, even with primitive tools. Our worst problem was rainwater causing internal rust, and mal-adjustment. If the top gear slips the 4 planet wheel pins and sliding clutch are all thats required, used to fit these in about 10 minutes.

Light tubular tyres would sometimes get a small puncture from sharp grit. I very rarely suffered this, I used to put about an ounce of water in each tyre, they stayed up longer, and didn't suffer the small punctures. If you get a slow puncture in any cycle tyre this is worth a try.
Regards Keith




by: 195.93.21.98

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Kurt K. on 7/30/2008 at 3:36:43 PM
Dear Keith,

As a matter of fact, the 1951 catalog is comprised primarily of machines with 70 degree seat and headtubes. With exception to the sport bike lineup, this is the breakdown. All are essentially built around two standardized frames:

Sports (70 degree, forward drops, cable brakes)
Sports Light Roadster (70 degree, forward drops, cable brakes)
Superbe Sports Tourist (70 degree, forward drops, cable brakes)
Superbe Dawn Tourist (70 degree, forward drops, rod brakes)
Superbe Tourist (65 degree, trapped ends, rod brakes)
Sports "C" Tourist (70 degree, forward drops, cable brakes)
Sports Tourist (70 degree, forward drops, cable brakes)
Dawn (70 degree, forward drops, rod brakes)
Dawn Tourist (70 degree, forward drops, rod brakes)
Popular (65 degree, trapped ends, rod brakes)
Tourist (65 degree, trapped ends, rod brakes)

Take a close look at the Superbe Tourist, Popular, and Tourist, and you'll be able to see the trapped ends and bolt-on rear seatstays. As for the remainder of the models, take particular note of their frame angles in comparison to the three I've mentioned.

Incidentally, here is a photograph of a 1951 Raleigh Sports "C" Tourist (with added FG 4-speed Dynohub):
http://www.jaysmarine.com/raleigh_51sports_1.jpg

Note the 70 degree frame angles (not to mention the fork I have to straighten forward a few degrees).

The 10-20 steel used on Raleighs was far easier to manipulate on the post '60 machines produced by TI - the already soft steel was made even thinner.

Hardly takes any effort to straighten it; I had to bring the blades on the Rudge about 15 degrees forward when I got it, for someone had succeeded in slamming it into a wall. That, of course, was late '70s steel - easy as pie to manipulate.

That said, it is absolutely pathetic to see how many forks from the '60s and '70s examples have since been bent in various minute concoctions from what appears to have been nothing but minor misuse from years past. It makes straightening them a living nightmare.

-Kurt
by: 98.64.56.35

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Keith Body on 7/31/2008 at 9:03:18 AM
Hi Kurt, You are correct, I could not see the catalogue clearly. These had gone by 1954, at least I don't remember them. Your bent forks, there was a quick and dirty way. Get someone to hold the bike up, lie on the ground with your feet against the cranks by the cotters, and pull the front wheel towards you. the person holding the bike is required to tell you when to stop. This will not necessarily be in track, but might suffice. It is too easy to pull them too far.

The reason for the type of steel used was to enable the brazing method. All the Raleigh frames in my time were drilled and pinned through the lugs to hold them when brazed. If you take out the bottom bracket axle you will see the 4 pins used. Other makers used much poorer methods. Reynolds butted tubes would have been ruined by the brazing process.
I had one of the 1954 London cycle show bikes, amazing quality of chrome and finish. You have all opened a window into memories from more than 50 years ago.
I think there should be somewhere else for this disscussion, the thread is too long.
Regards

Keith
by: 195.93.21.98

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Keith Body on 7/31/2008 at 9:03:26 AM
Hi Kurt, You are correct, I could not see the catalogue clearly. These had gone by 1954, at least I don't remember them. Your bent forks, there was a quick and dirty way. Get someone to hold the bike up, lie on the ground with your feet against the cranks by the cotters, and pull the front wheel towards you. the person holding the bike is required to tell you when to stop. This will not necessarily be in track, but might suffice. It is too easy to pull them too far.

The reason for the type of steel used was to enable the brazing method. All the Raleigh frames in my time were drilled and pinned through the lugs to hold them when brazed. If you take out the bottom bracket axle you will see the 4 pins used. Other makers used much poorer methods. Reynolds butted tubes would have been ruined by the brazing process.
I had one of the 1954 London cycle show bikes, amazing quality of chrome and finish. You have all opened a window into memories from more than 50 years ago.
I think there should be somewhere else for this disscussion, the thread is too long.
Regards

Keith
by: 195.93.21.98

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 7/31/2008 at 12:05:45 PM
Welcome, Keith Body! Please share your memories with us!
by: 161.226.4.6

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Photos of Spencer Howell's '78 DL-1 posted by Chris on 8/5/2008 at 4:20:34 PM
The late Nottingham machines were different.
by: 161.226.4.6