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Archived: Vintage Lightweights







AGE / VALUE:   Photos of Unusual Components posted by: Kurt on 11/13/2000 at 11:14:22 AM
Here are links to photos of old and odd components I have posted on the web:

http://photos.altavista.com/eurotrash

http://photos.altavista.com/eurotrash2

50s Campy, Galli, Zeus etc. enjoy!

Kurt


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Photos of Unusual Components posted by Aldo Ross on 11/14/2000 at 5:46:38 PM
You can find more pics of interesting bike parts these photo albums:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Albumlist?u=1225372

Enjoy!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Photos of Unusual Components posted by desmo on 11/16/2000 at 12:47:19 AM
Aldo,

Thanks for posting the URL of your photos, excellent. Sorry abouth the double post I would delete one if I could.

Kurt






AGE / VALUE:   Photos of Unusual Components posted by: Kurt on 11/13/2000 at 11:14:22 AM
Here are links to photos of old and odd components I have posted on the web:

http://photos.altavista.com/eurotrash

http://photos.altavista.com/eurotrash2

50s Campy, Galli, Zeus etc. enjoy!

Kurt







MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by: Wings on 11/13/2000 at 12:36:02 AM
I live in a warm climate. The temperature extremes can be great! Frost in the morning to near 80 degree in the afternoon on some days. I am now riding in colder weather that I would usually be hiking or walking in to get exercise, but a foot injury is going to keep me pedaling this winter.
What have you found that keeps THE EARS WARM?
When I was a runner I used ski masks, but what works good on a bike -- I think there is some concern to still be able to hear the traffic also. I would appreciate your ideas that work for you!


   RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by Tom Adams on 11/13/2000 at 5:15:23 AM
For once, modern technology actually improves something! I use a thin neophrene earband, brand name Gator. Keeps the wind off, which is the worst culprit, and fits nicely under a helmet. Plug the helmet vents if it's super cold, and you're all set. When weather warms, an ear band fits nicely into a pocket.

Other options are earmuffs or buying an oversize "winter" helmet that will fit over a warm hat. If you try the big helmet, look into a hard hat liner. They are much thinner than a typical wool knit cap. I had a friend who swore by this combo. Beware of blocking your hearing too much, or you won't hear that Suburban bearing down on you!

   RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by Keith on 11/13/2000 at 7:07:06 AM
I second the vote for the neprene earband (no recounts, please). I use a polyester balaklava under the helmet when its below 45f. If it goes below about 30f, I add the neoprene earband. I can still hear wearing all this. What? What did you say?

   RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by ChristopherRobin on 11/13/2000 at 8:53:26 AM
A pal of mine has a Russian rabbit fur hat and it keeps your head really warm especially the ears. A lot of body heat goes out of your head and he loves it and now that I have my own I do too. I dunno about how this would work while cycling but go to a Army, Navy surplus store and get one theyre like $40.00 or so. Also look at rucksacks, and the selection of bicycle bags. Tell the counter dude that you are a cyclist and need to keep your ears warm

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by Oscar on 11/13/2000 at 9:18:23 AM
I use a wool headband. I also have a Russian rabbit fur hat, but I'm deaf inside it when the earflaps are closed.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by ChristopherRobin on 11/13/2000 at 5:28:03 PM
Never mind, never mind, Do not use the Russian hat while cycling!!! You need to hear traffic.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by Wings on 11/13/2000 at 6:19:38 PM
Thanks guys for all the information!
I ordered a skull cap from Nashbar that looks like it can be pulled down. I also found the "Balaclava" in their catalog.
I AM UNABLE TO FIND THE NEOPRENE (SP?) EAR BAND ANYWHERE.
Probably because I am in a warm climate. If you know of a mail order (or online) place that sells the neoprene ear band, please email me or leave a message here!
Again, thanks for the help -- Especially since this is such basic knowledge for you macho cold weather guys!
Wings1123@aol.com

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by Keith on 11/14/2000 at 6:19:08 AM
I got my neoprene headband from Performance or Colorado Cyclist -- can't recall which. Try them, they should have scads of winter stuff available now.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by bob jewell on 11/14/2000 at 7:30:20 AM
Try "Ear Pops". They cover each ear, protecting them from the wind yet allowing you to hear. By blocking the wind, they keep your ears warm. Usually come in black, they contain a flexible flat band that "pops" open and closed, effectively fitting around your ear.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Ears! posted by bob jewell on 11/14/2000 at 7:30:46 AM
Try "Ear Pops". They cover each ear, protecting them from the wind yet allowing you to hear. By blocking the wind, they keep your ears warm. Usually come in black, they contain a flexible flat band that "pops" open and closed, effectively fitting around your ear.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Peugeot UO-8 (?) posted by: Glen on 11/12/2000 at 9:12:27 PM
Frankly, I don't know what I've just bought. It's a Peugeot (s/n 1578363, located on outside of left rear dropout area) with Mafac Racer centrepulls, Rigida patterned Chrolux rims (27"x1.25"), Normandy hubs, Simplex shifters, Suntour deraillers, Sugino cranks, Pivo stem and an Ideale "39" saddle. Decals indicate early to mid '70s (as shown on Peugeot PX-10 Database site). Only reference to tube material is "Tube Special Allege Peugeot" seat-tube decal. Rather short, plain lugs. Riveted headtube badge is rectangular-ish but not foil. Only info stamped into bottom bracket shell is "RYJ4." I think it may be a UO-8 but I honestly don't know much about the Peugeot line (AO-8? AO-9? UO-8?). I'm sure it's not worth much but I think it's neat and would like to know more about this and other non-PX-10 models.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Peugeot UO-8 (?) posted by Keith on 11/13/2000 at 7:15:21 AM
I don't know the in-between models or later 70s models either. I don't know how long the UO-8 designation lasted. But I o remember the early 70s UO-8, and even owned one fairly recently (but stripped it and pitched it). The lugs were actually kind of fancy -- rectangular cutouts and step pattern on the headlugs. The original equipment was Simplex Prestige, chromed Rigida rims, cottered steel 3-pin crank, and mine had Weinmann centerpulls, although Mafac might also have been correct during the early 70s bike boom. As I recal, it did have the same tubing sticker, which is really their designation for plain steel (much like Raleigh 2030, made it sound more upscale). Yours doesn't sound like that, but perhaps the UO-8 evolved into the Japanese equipment and plainer lugs -- Raleigh models followed that path in the late 70s. I bet John knows.

   "my other bike's a PKN-10E" posted by John E on 11/13/2000 at 7:21:59 AM
Glen, if your bike has half-chrome forks, it is a UO-8, which was by far Peugeot's most popular model in the U.S. Before 1973, they came only in green, blue, or white and had a single shift lever boss on the downtube. Beginning in 1973 or 1974, Peugeot changed to vague-shifting stem shifters (with brazed-on downtube cable guides) and added various other colour options, including red, yellow, and an elegant-looking limited edition "champagne."

If it has painted forks and is blue or green, your bike is an AO-8, which also had nutted wheels instead of quick release.

A previous owner has already replaced the heavy and unreliable cottered steel cranks, the horrendous push-rod Simplex front derailleur, and the not-much-better Simplex rear derailleur for you. If the bike fits you, keep it and enjoy the ride.

I commuted on a ca. 1974 UO-8 until the right chainstay cracked between the chainwheel and tyre clearance dimples. French-threaded bottom bracket and headset parts can be hard to find -- let me know if you need anything, as I never scrap a frame without first stripping all usable fixtures.

   RE: "my other bike's a PKN-10E" posted by Ian on 11/20/2000 at 11:00:26 AM
Am looking for a pair of 27 x 1 1/4 Rigida "Chrolux" or "SuperChromix" rims with Normandy high flange hubs (quick release axles) for a '74 Peugeot UO-8.

Also looking for:
Clean Nervar 170mm three arm crankset and 52 x 40 chainwheels.

Lyotard 36 bis pedals (french thread).

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian






AGE / VALUE:   Classic Rendevous Site back up! posted by: Tom Adams on 11/11/2000 at 6:57:50 AM
For those of you who have been waiting,the Vintage Bike site Classic Rendevous, maintained by D. Brown at Cycles De Oro is back up. Still the Oct 6 version, updates are pending. Web site is http://www.cyclesdeoro.com/Classc_Home.htm

Yeah! The good guys win one !


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Classic Rendevous Site back up! posted by Christopherrobin@starmail.com on 11/11/2000 at 8:18:06 AM
Thank Heavens.Yea!!!!






MISC:   Another one bites the dust posted by: Art on 11/10/2000 at 6:13:07 PM
Here's another one for you boys. The Third Hand/Loose Screws, a great source for tools and small parts is going out of business. In their letter to their customers they explain that the innovations in bicycle production-essentially the fact that builders have moved away from consistancy in parts production and that "constant change and proliferation of small parts in the bicycle industry has made life difficult for consumers, importers, bicycle shops, and small retailers." Not much need for replacement parts if nothing gets repaired but instead needs to be completely replaced. Re our earlier discussions about the future of vintage bike collecting....all those small parts on old bikes just became more valuable...because one of the biggest suppliers of them is closing down. www.the thirdhand.com www.loosescrews.com.


   RE:MISC: Very bad, but who is buying up the inventory? posted by ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 11/11/2000 at 8:16:50 AM
This is very, very bad. They were a source of bicycle tools not found anywhere else. Also for small parts that save your butt when you need them. My question who is buying up ther inventory and how do I contact them?

   RE:MISC:   Another one bites the dust posted by Oscar on 11/11/2000 at 9:13:03 PM
Not only did they have the goods, they where a real live professional business. Shipping was fast, stock was there, and the staff was quality.

   RE:MISC:   Another one bites the dust posted by Keith on 11/13/2000 at 7:22:55 AM
This Sunday the paper ran an article about a local fix-it shop that was going out of business. It had lasted 3 generations, and now it's closing. They fixed appliances, clocks, watches, etc. Today most things aren't even made to be repaired or rebuilt, just replaced. Bicycle equipment is no different. The recent Rivendell Reader compared the minutia of old Campy brake calipers, which is completely rebuildable, with funtional but non-rebuildable (can't even get parts) contemporary Shimano levers. I'd guess that the assumption is that serious cyclists now buy a new bike about every 3 years (I see this in our club), whereas those who buy a bike and store it away don't care anyway. Another reason to make the room to save usable parts.

   RE:MISC:   Another one bites the dust posted by Fred on 11/13/2000 at 7:03:24 PM
I'm very sad to learn of Third Hand/Loose Screws going out of business. I have bought a lot of parts and tools from them, primarily for my Raleigh bunch. They were always considerate and prompt in filling orders. They discontinued a lot of their parts a year or so ago which was a foreshadowing of this latest event. Save those old parts, don't throw anything away, and keep sharing, this is only the beginning I fear.

   RE:MISC:   Another one bites the dust posted by Mike Stone on 12/2/2000 at 5:40:43 AM
It is a shame to hear that another bicycle repair/parts business has bit the dust. This is easy to understand, though.

Sure, there are some people who will pay big money for bikes, but I just went shopping for a new bike with my kid. (Sure, he has some nice classics to ride, but he wants a brand new "Tricks" bike for his generation and I can understand that.)

Anyway, you can buy a brand new bike for $80.00. Bikes are cheaper now that at any time in history - even if you ignore converting to todays prices. In fact, Converted to today's dollars, todays "Shopping Center" bikes are the equivelant of about $9.00 in 1964 dollars.

These bikes are painted in God-awful trendy paint schemes so that after a couple of years, they look out-of-date. Of course, kids are sensitive to fashion and can come up with a million reasons why they need a new bike rather than repair the old one.

These are simply very fat times in the USA. We make good money and prices are cheap. Common sense does not rule under today's circumstances.






AGE / VALUE:   Urago posted by: mike on 11/8/2000 at 6:45:44 PM
I'm looking for any information on Urago (sp?)bicycles. I have a lightweight ladies model. The bike seems to have been specd very nicely - eyeleted Mavic rims, Stronglight cranks, scalloped aluminum fenders, built in rack, generator, and 4 speed frewheel.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Urago posted by Keith on 11/9/2000 at 10:39:49 AM
There's a short not very informative blurb on Urago in the Michael Kone "Wild Guesses" list on Sheldon Brown's site. He says there were fabulous and therefore valuable ones, and cheap mass-produced ones. Relatively few brands have offered top-end quality women's frame bikes -- Paramount and Waterford come to mind as exceptions. So without more info I'd guess yours is not a sought after high-end model. On the other hand, four speed suggests it could be 60s or 50s vintage, and therefore of special interest to some, even if only for parts. Describe the rear derailleur -- what is the brand, and is it a parallelogram design?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Urago posted by ChristopherRobin on 11/9/2000 at 5:01:00 PM
All I have are a badge or two. It's weird. I mean it's really cool, one of my favorite badges but it's still strange. It is a picture of this coal miner with the round light on his head he has this silly grin on his face. I am dying to know the story behind this badge. Who is this guy? What does it represent? I keep looking and I know I will find the cheap ones first but if I keep looking faithfully one day I will find a rare, nice one. 4 speed freewheel? You have a cool one!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Urago posted by hjfl on 11/9/2000 at 10:04:05 PM
I also have a Urago which has a 4 cog freewheel. The front Has the Suicide shifter with the rod on the seatube for changing gears. Mine has sew up tires, and even a branded Urago bell. I suspect mine is earlly 50's based on the former owners info, but I really do not know.

   8-speed / Suicide shift -- production years posted by John E on 11/10/2000 at 6:44:23 AM
As far as I know, the last production bike with a 4-speed freewheel and a suicide front shifter was the 1960 Schwinn Varsity. Early 1950s sounds about right for your bike, but it could be late 40s or late 50s. If you list the other original components, someone in this forum might be able to help narrow down your production year.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Urago posted by hjfl on 11/10/2000 at 7:59:52 PM
A few addtional details on my Urago ,Reynolds 531 tubing,Simplex derallers and chainrings,Stronglight headset, Weinmann brakes and pedals?, Maxi Hubs?. The rear Siplex derailler is Rather different and not of a familiar style. The bike seems to be rather light .

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Urago posted by hjfl on 11/10/2000 at 8:06:03 PM
Almost forgot the headbadge Christopher,I have the same badge you describe on my bike,although I thought the helmet he was wearing was some kind of bicycling helmet,or polo helmet, or???, not a miners helmet.

   Simplex collectible dog of a derailleur posted by John E on 11/11/2000 at 6:06:06 PM
Sorry about the wording, canine lovers! If your Simplex rear derailleur has a helical spring, a reverse shift pattern (i.e., normal low instead of the customary normal high), and an upside-down jockey cage, it's a "Tour de France," from the 1950s. They are dreadful, but very collectible. One early version used a split cable, to attempt to equalize chain tension across the cogs. They were spec'd on the 1960 Varsity and Continental only because the derailleur set, including the infamous suicide front shifter, was $1.37 cheaper than the superior Huret offering.

   Maxi hubs posted by John E on 11/11/2000 at 6:10:05 PM
My first tubular wheelset, which I scrounged from an old Follis whose owner wanted clinchers, had Maxi hubs, which, though already 15 years old, gave me several years of reliable service.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Urago posted by ChristopherRobin on 11/13/2000 at 8:58:38 AM
Good question about the hat! It should be a bicycling helmet, or beret but he looks like a coal miner to me. I dunno






FOR SALE:   CDI posted by: MP on 11/8/2000 at 4:37:19 PM
French-made CDI, 60s-early 70s era, red, Simplex, Mafac, 52/49 cottered cranks, condition is a 7+, would like to move it out of my garage for $130 shipped.







MISC:   RESTORATION posted by: Art on 11/7/2000 at 10:40:48 AM
I am interested in your opinions on restoration. I've never restored a bike, bought a restored one, or been particularly interested in them. I've completed bikes, found the correct parts for an incomplete bike. My 54 Paramount Tourist provides a dilemma for me. It is a rare enough and interesting enough bike that I would like it to be in the best shape that I can get it. I found the correct crank for it (which cost me more than the bike) and the bike is essentially complete and correct. (I've got to work the rim thing out but that affords me a number of options). The owner before me masked off the decals and spray painted the frame the same color, gold, as the original. It appears to be original paint with original decals, although rough, until one looks at it closely. I've had luck before pulling off an old repaint, but the overpaint is too old for it to work this time. I can't afford to restore it now...Cyclart would do it for $600. Anybody restore an older bike? Any opinions?


   RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Keith on 11/7/2000 at 12:38:22 PM
Art -- Waterford also does complete, correct Paramount restorations -- be sure to check with them too -- I believe they post teir prices right on their site. I n reality, I'm not even a collector, but a rider with an interest in older bicycles, and I'm not fussy about appearance. I'm also unconcerned about correct parts on rider bikes, but have left untouched only a couple of lightweights that came to me 100% original. If it's really nice, that's great! If it's not, I'm happy if it's barely presentable and rideable. So you are launching into serious collector territory that I haven't even approached. I'm excited for you, and a bit envious. I will offer this -- take your time and think it over. You can clean it up and keep it as is for a year, two years, and still go for a full restoration later, when you're ready. Since the finish on your Paramount is non-original, then you have a green light on new paint and decals. Your 1940s Wastyn Paramount is a gem -- IMHO, it's one of those few vintage lightweights that's worth putting money into, at least to a point, so have at it. BTW, I noticed a 50s 1950s Raleigh Clubman languishing unbid on Ebay. It might have some correct era parts for you. One last thing -- I'd Frame Saver your Paramount now, and store indoors. The recently-discussed Varsity and Continental may have had the biggest impact in the U.S. historically, but it was the Paramount kept the flame alive during the Dark Ages of American cycling.

   RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Keith on 11/7/2000 at 12:46:22 PM
P.S. The 50s Raleigh Clubman is item # 485 911 621. As of 3:45 p.m. est, only 6 hours. One bid at $125. Has Simplex suicide rod front d, Williams cranks, etc.

   RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Oscar on 11/7/2000 at 8:56:17 PM
I've been reading about your Paramount with great interest. I think you're pretty lucky for finding it.

I've got no problem with repainting and swapping parts with decent rider bikes. Your Paramount is above and beyond a repaintable rider bike and is in that realm of "you have to do it right".

Does my Panasonic need it's original paint and decal scheme. No. Did I offend Ignatz when I put aluminum rims on my Schwinn? Nope. Would my daughter's Magna walmartbike lose it's value when she puts flower stickers on it. Nuh-uh.

Of course your Paramount is a different story. A fellow down the street bought a 125 year old house so he could knock it down. In the fastest municipal action I have ever seen, it was declared a landmark, and the guy had to spend 5 years restoring it (could sell it to anyone) Now it looks great. See what happens when you're stuck with history. It's a responsibility. Send it to Waterford, then ride the heck out of it.

   RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Art on 11/8/2000 at 7:12:57 PM
Ill share this with you guys since my wife only pretends to care about this stuff. I wasn't sure which crank was appropriate for the Paramount, my info just said three pin Schwinn crank. I called American Cyclery (Brad was gone) and Waterford(they paged some guy but he never came to the phone.)I called Cyclart and talked with Jim Cunningham. My goal was just to find out what the corrert crank really was, what it looked like. I wasn't planning on buying anything. He said that he had seen just two Tourists in the years he's been doing bikes, and he happened to be restoring one now. He said he thought he had the correct crank in his shop, but no matter how hard he tried, he couldn't find it. As he was looking for it he told me that Schwinn, who had bought a lot of parts for the early Paramounts, had begun to run out of their large stocks in the mid-fities and turned to the duty-free imports coming in from England and France for parts. My bike has a flip flop rear hub with a Dunlop rim and a Bayless-Wylie high flange hub. The front rim is an older BSA hub with a Rigida Chromatix(?) rim. We figured the rear was at least correct for the time period. He finally found the correct Schwinn scripted crank and he also had the matching front Bayhess-Wylie hub. I figured I might not get another crack at the correct one for awhile and I knew he knew which was the right one, so I bought it. I'm still looking for correct racks and to match rims, but I'm in no hurry with this one. (Ironically Keith, the Raleigh on E-bay which you told me about, had Bayless Wylie hubs. The bike was pretty rough but sold for 152.50.) My next project will be to rebuild the bottom bracket and see how it rides. I'll let you know what happens next.

   RE:RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Wings on 11/9/2000 at 12:04:57 AM
Art,
If you are looking for a Rigida Chroma... rim let me know the exact name and size. I bet I have at least one and the chrome on those shines up better than anything I have seen! Mine were from a Peugot.

   RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Keith on 11/9/2000 at 6:39:23 AM
In the "Mighty TOSRV" book there are two pictures of TOSRV founder Chuck Siple with his Paramount. One is from August 1940 and shows Chuck on the bike wearing an old hairnet helmet, European jersey, ready for a ride. Road cycling is fringe now -- think about how few people did it back then! The other photo is from 1944, and shows him in his Navy uniform (on leave), balancing the Paramount up in the air by the saddle. His story is amazing, and the Paramount is part of that. The went on to begin what was, for many years, one of the largest cycling events in the country. Your Wasten paramount is a piece of history -- yes, it's very much worth doing it right!

   RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Keith on 11/9/2000 at 11:00:55 AM
Your mention of American Cyclery reminded me to visit that site -- haven't been there for a long time. They're asking $2,400 for a 1951 track Paramount. To me that's a sign that it's worth it to put several 100s into yours even from an investment standpoint.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   RESTORATION posted by Ian on 11/20/2000 at 10:57:40 AM
Am looking for a pair of 27 x 1 1/4 Rigida "Chrolux" or "SuperChromix" rims with Normandy high flange hubs with quick release axles for a '74 Peugeot UO-8.

Also looking for:
Clean Nervar 170mm three arm crankset and 52 x 40 chainwheels.

Lyotard 36 bis pedals (french thread).

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian






AGE / VALUE:   10 speed american flyer jewel posted by: Charlie on 11/6/2000 at 4:13:35 PM
Any information and approximate value? Any interested buyers?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   10 speed american flyer jewel posted by chad on 11/8/2000 at 11:23:37 AM
test






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   The Holy Grail(s) posted by: Keith on 11/6/2000 at 11:11:35 AM
Art's "Fantasy" posting got me to go back to a site I visit only rarely -- Vintage Velos. Go there and pay homage to historically significant Italian racing bikes from the 1930s on. Yes, there collectors out there with Bianchis that were ridden by Fausto, and De Rosas that were ridden by Eddy. No, they don't show up at thrift shops and yard sales in the U.S. -- the guy who runs VV goes to Europe to find them. (Check the shoes and jerseys while you're at it.)







AGE / VALUE:   Berto's testing machine posted by: Keith on 11/6/2000 at 9:51:28 AM
Okay engineers: This weekend I again took my Paramount for a spin and I swear the "late shifting" Campy Nouvo Record worked better and more quietly than any of the vintage Suntour or Shimano stuff I have. And it works this way for me regardless of whether I'm shifting up or down. I was careful not to overshift and shift back as Berto seems to say I need to do with the Nouvo Record. So I have some questions about Berto's testing: his "testing machine" looks like it's simply a Fuji cut up and mounted on a stand. Now, he's a clever guy so I'm sure he accounted for just about everything. But the "late shifting" makes me wonder. I can make a modern index deralleur miss a shift by shifting it too slowly -- try for yourself. When I shift the old Campy, I'm doing it very quickliy, and in one move. It seems like too large a thing to overlook -- the rate at which the shift lever is being moved. But I see no sign that he used anything to measure or control the rate at which the shift lever is being moved. But if he simply moved a shift lever by hand, then I'd think his testing would be flawed from the start. Try this at home kids. John and others, what'r your thoughts?


   chain; cyclist; derailleur posted by John E on 11/6/2000 at 6:55:44 PM
Today's super-flexible chains compensate for the Campy's late shifting, and the rates at which you move the shifters and spin the cranks are highly relevant, as is the pedal torque you apply while shifting, your chain length, and your cogs' tooth profiles. Since Berto was studying a specific parameter, alignment of the jockey wheel with the cogs during the actual shift, he executed his tests slowly, and of course, with no load whatsoever. By shifting rapidly, you give the chain some sideward momentum that helps carry it over to the next cog.

By the way, the friction downtube Campy NR / SRAM 13-26 7-speed / 50-42 chainring / SRAM SR51 combination on my Bianchi is a delight. Since the SunTour downtube shifters on my Peugeot cannot be adjusted to run as smoothly and easily (without self-shifting) as the Campys, they compromise the performance of the matching SunTour derailleurs. Also, I have never found another front derialleur that can compete with Campy, although my Shimano 600 comes close. I believe the Campys also benefit from their superior structural rigidity and mechanical precision. A SunTour's optimized geometry cannot compensate fully for its rougher, sloppier action, particularly as it wears with use.

Each front or rear derailleur works best with a particular combination of cog sizes. I have had very good luck with 3- or 8-tooth drops in front and 2-tooth increments in back, particularly with the Campy NRs. A SunTour derailleur has an advantage only with a freewheel whose profile parallels its particular action angle.

Some day, I would like to test a modern slant planograph Campy derailleur, with friction downtube levers, against my old NR. I believe the new one will shift better on the smaller cogs, where mine suffers from a long jockey wheel - to - cog distance. The fundamental SunTour design with Campy materials and workmanship -- East meets West in the ultimate derailleur?

   RE:chain; cyclist; derailleur posted by Skip Echert on 11/6/2000 at 8:04:07 PM
Hello John E. - You mention the cogs' tooth profile as affecting shifting. I believe it is very important. Replacing a slab sided cog freewheel with with a more modern one creates magic. My 25 year old Nouvo Record now shifts quickly with a "modern" (10+ year old) freewheel. Late shifting over-and-back before, on target now. I am converting my 10 speeds to 12 speeds for the better availability of modern freewheels.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Berto's testing machine posted by Keith on 11/7/2000 at 8:05:07 AM
Thanks John -- your comments about the chain and tooth profile are consistent with my experience. My Paramount has a 5-speed Suntour Perfect, and a new chain. I think it works better than I remember any NR I used in the 70s with Atom or Regina freewheels. I recently sold a Suntour V equiped Fuji, and the buyer installed a new Sunrace freewheel and chain, and said it improved shifting a lot. A new Sunrace freewheel is about $10-12, and chains go for about the same, so this is a cheap upgrade that really improves performance right away. I currently have two Suntour-equiped bikes -- both shift sloppy compared to the Paramount with Nouvo Record, but then the derailleurs on both are old -- I understand that unless its Superbe or maybe Cyclone (I don't have either), they wear out and get sloppy. As for newer Campy derailleurs -- I'd be interested in the results of any testing you do. My understanding is that the geometry and dimensions are pretty much the same as between equivalent Campy and Shimano. Would you test friction in 9/10 speed, or put new jockey wheels and use 6 or 7 on the back? I have no personal experience but Rivendell says friction shifting with an 8 or 9 cassette gets really tricky.

   friction shifting w/ lots of cogs posted by j.eldon@abac.com on 11/7/2000 at 11:15:48 AM
I agree about the SunTour wear factor, Keith. (I have owned only one worn-out Campy derailleur -- the pushrod Gran Sport relic that came with my Capo.) Frank tested new or lightly-used derailleurs, but over years of regular use, the Shimanos and SunTours degrade faster than the Campys.

Since the cog-to-cog spacing is almost the same, I do not see why 8-speed friction shifting should be any trickier than 7-speed, as long as the derailleur and control lever can handle the additional deflection. I am building up my (originally 21-speed) project mountain bike with an 8-speed 12-25 Shimano cassette, 7-speed Shimano thumb shifters (in friction mode), and a 24 - Biopace 38 - 46 ringset. I have not yet decided which of my various old wide-range derailleurs to use, but an early SunTour might be fun. I'll let you know how it works out.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1960 Continental posted by: Keith on 11/6/2000 at 9:22:01 AM
Item # 484 568 734 (not mine) super clean looking 1960 Schwinn Continental with original derailleurs, beautiful decals, etc. At 12:21 est, 5 bids, and about 6 hours left, it's at $365. It will be interesting to see what this finally goes for in light of the remarks and anecdotal $800 sale referred to below.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1960 Continental posted by Keith on 11/6/2000 at 1:08:16 PM
P.S. Rivendel Reader 5 published a letter from the Varsity's creator, Keith Kingsbay, to Frank Berto. In it Kingsbay says the original 1960 Varsity had a Simplex Tour de France rear derailleur, and tells the story of how the spec was switched to Huret the next year as a result of Beefeater martinis. Part of the letter is also reproduced in Berto's "Dancing Chain."

   change for the better posted by John E on 11/6/2000 at 7:04:00 PM
The Huret Allvit front and rear are vastly superior to the corresponding Simplex Tour de Frances, which were already obsolete at the time of the 1960 Varsity/Continental roll-out. I don't know which is more "suicidal" -- reaching down to change chainwheels or losing the (normal-low) derailleur cage into the spokes when the shift cable snaps. The Huret Allvits on my first Bianchi shifted quite well, although they were notoriously hard on control cables.

   1960 Continental = $800+ posted by John E on 11/6/2000 at 7:28:05 PM
That Conti just went for over $800, which is about 10X its original price. I'm with Keith -- I'd rather have an old Paramount for the same (less?) money.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1960 Continental posted by Keith on 11/7/2000 at 7:21:24 AM
Wow! Now I wonder, what, if anything, will this mean to the level of interest in vintage lightweights in general. Will others, like Ray, who had been focusing on other forms, begin to recognize the incredible history of lightweights? Just as the Varsity was a stepping stone for many riders in the 60s and 70s, perhaps they will likewise be a catalyst for a greater appreciation of handmade, lugged higher-end lightweights of the same era. For me, part of the allure of the lightweights is the experience of riding them, then and now. The century rides on quiet country roads, the crits on city streets, following Eddy Merckx from afar, watching American road racing in its infancy. It's a rich heritage we share in these lightweight bicycles.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Trends on Ebay posted by: Skip Echert on 11/5/2000 at 8:46:02 PM
Hello - From my less-than-a-year perspective it appears the number of "vintage lightweights" and old parts listed on Ebay is decreasing with time. Is this correct? Are the prices bid going down as well?

Ebay has made it practical for folks to sell off those few bits of new old stock (NOS) Campy stuff they had taking up space in their garage. But as a good friend observed "what happens when it all is sold?" I didn't have an answer, and still don't.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Trends on Ebay posted by Keith on 11/6/2000 at 6:44:55 AM
I've been watching it for a little longer than that, and see the same trend. What happens when it's all sold? One possible answer is that most of those relatively few people who really want it will then already have all they want or need. Unless a significant number of new people become interested in 70s -80s road bikes (something I believe unlikely to happen in my lifetime), the prices will not increase, IMHO.

   Trends on Ebay; safety posted by John E on 11/6/2000 at 7:39:43 AM
I am completing a 4-month eBay buying binge, in which I have acquired various NOS and lightly-used 7-speed freewheels, 130 and 135mm BCD cranksets, Campy toeclips, and a few odds and ends. My bicycle collection has been undergoing a paradigm shift from 122 and 144mm BCD cranks and 5-speed freewheels to 130 and 135mm cranks and 7-speed freewheels. Except for tyres and brake pads, and barring any new irresistible project bikes, I am now pretty well set with parts and frames for the next decade.

Although I like the look of the old 144mm BCD Campy Record, Ofmega, and Sugino cranks, I worry about reliability, having fallen once when I broke a Sugino crank at the pedal eye. The purists may cringe, but my 1982 Bianchi is more reliable and safer with near-NOS 1994 "Shimano-copy" Campy cranks and a new SRAM/Sachs 7-speed freewheel replacing the original very-used Ofmega cranks and Regina freewheel.

For the same reason, my 1960 Capo has 1990s Specialized bars and stem.






AGE / VALUE:   NOS VINTAGE PARTS FOR SALE/TRADE posted by: Brian Kunzog on 11/5/2000 at 8:23:25 PM
Interested in opening a bicycle shop or adding to an existing one? I have a complete bicycle parts inventory from my fathers closed shop. Most parts are new and from the 70-80's. Follow this link or email me for more info.
http://communities.msn.com/KunzogBicycles&naventryid=109
I have more parts that I haven't inventoried yet. Cash price or will trade for antique bicycles - turn of century to 50's balloon tired bikes or antique/classic motorcycle or scooters. What do you have to trade? Located near Charleston, S.C.