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Archived: Vintage Lightweights







VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Campy Valentino Extra DRs posted by: dave on 8/16/2000 at 7:54:34 AM
I picked up a Bottechia the other day and it has a Campy RD labeled
Valentino Extra ... the FD is also Campy and is operated by
a rod/piston much like some of the old Simplex FDs.

Any info on when these were produced, where they fall in the
Campy product line in terms of quality/functionality would be
much appreciated.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Campy Valentino Extra DRs posted by Keith on 8/16/2000 at 9:26:59 AM
There's some Valentino discussion if you scroll down. Valentino was the bottom of the line Campy in the early 70s. I have a 1972 book that describes it in detail, states that it has full brass bushings, and should break in well. It rated it above Simplex and Huret, but not on par with god Japanese stuff. I put a Valentino on my Gitane Interclub in 1971 or '72 to say I had Campy. It worked well, but it was only being used on a 13-21 freewheel. John of this group has referred to the recent book "The Dancing Chain" (I've got to get this), which apparently also discusses this derailleur. The push-rod front is not a good design, in my opinion, but if it works for you -- great! The bike is low end, probably plain steel, but this stuff is not throwaway junk unless it's horribly rusted and/or beyond repair. I regularly see a similar Valentino-equiped Atala parked at the local library -- really clean, and has the yellow Campy sticker! -- someone is using this stuff after 25 or so years! You can too! But don't expect to retire on the proceeds of a sale -- it's not rare or collectable.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Campy Valentino Extra DRs posted by dave on 8/16/2000 at 9:49:19 AM
Thanks for the info (and sorry I missed the thread a few days ago -- I usually only
read the Roadsters list). As the bike is my size and the price was right (I fished it
out of a trash heap on the day the students all swap apartments) maybe I'll
clean it up and ride it, at least for awhile.






AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Galaxy posted by: Tom Faust on 8/14/2000 at 5:40:28 PM
I picked up a Dawes Galaxy at the Las Anderson show. Don't know much about it, except that it is 531 tube with Nervex(?) lugs. Chrome forks and rear stays. The front derailluer is a Simplex (don't know model but same as low line French bike I have of similiar age). The rear derailleur has been replced with a Sun Tour. Can anyone suggests some upgrades which would retain the vintage look? Bottom bracket has serial no. 1992.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Galaxy posted by Brian L. on 8/14/2000 at 6:31:27 PM
Dawes, even nicer ones seem to go for low-end prices, not unlike Atala. Therefore, in my opinion you ought to fit them out with what's available and performs well. You can never go wrong with NR, and there seems to be a lot of it in the used and NOS market. The better alloy Simplex could also be a choice, although my own experience is that it doesn't perform as well, no offense to the Francophiles out there. Personally, I think that Suntour or Shimano of the same vintage works the best and looks pretty damn good. Try out the entire Cyclone and early Superbe range from Suntour, or early DuraAce/Crane from Shimano. Happy parts hunting!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Galaxy posted by Hilary Stone on 8/19/2000 at 2:19:20 AM
Dawes Galaxys have been made from aty least 1973 onwards but Dawes records were lost in a fire and noone I know has a sufficiently good collection of catalogues to assist in dating.






MISC:   How do they do it? posted by: Brian L. on 8/14/2000 at 2:24:32 PM
I would love to hear from any retired, or active pros about what its like to ride in the peloton at anerobic threshold surrounded by exhaust belching motorcycles and cars. That (as well as many other) aspects of the euro-pro scene have always seemed surreal and bizarre to me.


   RE:MISC:   How do they do it? posted by Keith on 8/16/2000 at 9:56:30 AM
That sounds like parts of my commute!

   RE:RE:MISC:   How do they do it? posted by Brian L. on 8/16/2000 at 10:21:27 AM
Yeah, mine too at times. Oftentimes, my commute has to constitute a large part of my riding, I try and stretch it out by finding the most circuitous course possible, at least during the summer months. This involves rising fairly early, but I have a couple of courses at close to 2 hours that afford great views of Elliott Bay.

I would appreciate any recommendations for good (as in well written) books talking about the pro peloton experience.

   RE:MISC:   How do they do it? posted by Keith on 8/18/2000 at 10:41:29 AM
Your use of surreal is apt. The motorcycles and cars go by within inches, and even worse, the fans jump right out into the road in front of riders and bait or taunt the riders, only jumping away at the last split second. How could you stay focused on a killer effort with all this going on? It's not like you could tune it out -- you'd have to remain aware of all of it to avoid crashing.






AGE / VALUE:   What Is Fair Market Value For Italian Road Bikes? posted by: Gavin Illingworth on 8/14/2000 at 1:54:25 PM
I have a Benotto and a Pinarello circa 1981. The Benotto is completely
Campag Nuovo Record with an SP3000 frame. The Pinarello has a Super Record Headset and crankset, with Nuovo
Record elsewhere. It has Columbus SL tubing.
Both are in very nice shape, and maintained by a fanatic (me).

I really don't know the vintage market, so what are reasonable market values in US or Canadian currencies?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is Fair Market Value For Italian Road Bikes? posted by Keith on 8/15/2000 at 9:37:11 AM
I would go to the "Wild Guesses of Value for Selected Vintage Lighweights" which you can access through www.sheldonbrown.com. It's a pretty comprehensive list by Michael Kone of Bicycle Classics. He includes both Bennotto and Pinarello. The list provides basically that most classic Campy-equiped lightweights are worth $700 to $1000 in "guideline condition," with a few exceptions in both directions. I'm in no position to disagree -- those are the asking prices you see out there. So, if you're looking for value for insurance purposes, or if you plan to sell and you're in no big hurry, then I'd peg your bike with that list. I would add, however, that a "distress sale" on Ebay would probably net much less, as in several 100s less. And keep in mind that the market for these bikes is "thin" to use Kane's word -- it stems from the fact that there were relatively few of us interested when these things were new! I'm just guesing, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are fewer then 100 "serious" vintage lightweight collectors in this country, i.e., people willing to go for the $3000 and up truly rare and sought after machines (that's not me), then maybe a thousand or so who are somewhere on the periphery who are willing to part with $1000 or so to get the bike they rode or dreamed of riding in the 70s or 80s (that's me).

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is Fair Market Value For Italian Road Bikes? posted by Keith on 8/15/2000 at 11:29:12 AM
Okay, and again I'm guesinng, maybe it's more like a few thousand casual collectors -- those who have bought 1-3 high-end 70s or early 80s road bikes for the love of the bikes of that era. By "serious" I'd further describe as those with numerous truly rare bikes, Coppi-era Bianchis, late 40s to mid-50s Cinellis, etc. What's your guess?






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Piecing it together posted by: Keith on 8/14/2000 at 1:45:00 PM
A few days ago, triathlete neighbor gave me his 70s World Voyager frame (4130 chome-moly, w/ double-butted top and down tubes). With its chromed rear triangle, it could pass for a better vintage bike. I made it into a nice single speed (free, not fixed) with odds and ends I had sitting around, and rode it to work today. I pushed it a little, and got here several minutes faster than my earlier best time. It was fun to whiz by a guy on a carbon bike with Mavic Heliums on the way. His front wheel probably costs 10 times more than what I have invested in the Voyager. You don't need to spend a mint to enjoy vintage lightweights.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Piecing it together posted by Brian L. on 8/14/2000 at 2:14:15 PM
There was a beautiful, cherry original World Voyager for sale on ebay about 2 weeks ago that couldn't have gone for much over $100 that had great lugs and chrome and a fire truck red paint job. I would have bought it, except that it was a tad big, and the wife probably would have gone ballistic.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Piecing it together posted by Oscar on 8/14/2000 at 2:51:00 PM
Goes to show you, its the rider, not the bike! Great story and congrats on the new/old single speed!






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Slender Seatpost Needed posted by: JohnM on 8/14/2000 at 12:38:04 PM
Help - I picked up a 1984 Peugeot at a yard sale recently. I don't know the model, the decals specify only the tubing material, Carbolite 103. Huret derailers, and generally mid-range components with most everything prominently stamped "Made in France". I like this bike because it rides and shifts well, and because it's so very French. The only thing I don't like is the vinyl-on-plastic Italian saddle that came with it. I have a nice Brooks Professional I'd like to install, but the current seatpost has a non-standard clamp, and won't easily adapt to a standard seat rail. Plus it's about an inch too short for me anyway. For any other bike, getting a replacement would be a cinch, but these bikes use a 24.0 (or 23.8?) diameter seatpost. Sheldon Brown says he can't get them, so now I know I'm in real trouble. Looking through Sheldon's database of seatpost sizes, the only other bike which ever used a 24.0 seatpost was the East German Diamant. Anyone have any ideas or sources?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Slender Seatpost Needed posted by Keith on 8/14/2000 at 1:13:13 PM
I believe I have this size in steel, but I may have an aluminum alloy one too -- I'll rumage around and get back to you.

   French Seatpost Needed posted by John E on 8/14/2000 at 3:32:18 PM
With the Carbolite frame, it sounds like the U-08 successor
I picked up at a garage sale. I fear I have only steel posts
(and fairly short ones, at that), as well, but I will
scrounge through my parts stash tonight. How long a post do
you require?

If Sheldon can't get a particular French component, that's
a bad sign! Another bad sign: since my Reynolds 531 1980
Peugeot PKN-10E has a nice 26.4mm aluminum Simplex post, I
suspect that by the 1980s, only the lower-end Peugeots used
the 23.8 or 24mm diameter. If this is true, I doubt you will
be able to find an aluminum one.

I don't blame you for wanting to swap saddles -- after 25
years and 50K miles, I still like my Brooks Pro.

   RE:French Seatpost Needed posted by JohnM on 8/15/2000 at 6:07:56 AM
Thank you, Keith and John. I took it apart last night and discovered that the seat clamp is actually separate from the seatpost, so in a pinch I can use my existing seatpost with an old-fashioned seat clamp. If I can find one where the saddle-rail clamp is above, rather than beside, the seat post clamp, it might give me some extra height, too. I don't need that much height - it's just that the seatpost is quite short, less than 6" = less than 4" usable above the minimum insertion.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Slender Seatpost Needed posted by Keith on 8/16/2000 at 5:51:34 AM
I have a steel post from a UO-8 if anyone needs it. I HAD a nice fluted aluminum post from a Carbolite-steel frame, but it must have been pitched during my last purge of parts. Yikes -- gotta watch that! BTW, the Carbolite frame had fastback-style stays and was lugless. Sound familiar? The one I acquired (free) had been crashed a bit, and was rusted, so I ended up pitching it after trying to use it for a fixed gear -- frame was too out of true to use. Anyway, the tubing seemed really soft -- I recall being able to bend the stays and fork almost too easily in futile efforts to align the thing. The tubing was very narrow all around.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Slender Seatpost Needed posted by JohnM on 8/16/2000 at 7:02:13 AM
Yes, that sounds like the seatpost I have - fluted aluminum with no integral clamp. Just a bit too short. You describe my bike to a "T" - lugless and slender. This one was barely ridden - the mold marks down the middle of the tires weren't even worn off. Thanks for the heads up on the soft tubing. The roads are pretty good around here, but I'll bear that in mind when I run into any rough stuff.

   Carbolite posted by John E on 8/16/2000 at 7:05:27 AM
I picked up a Peugeot with a 20" Carbolite lugless frame at
a garage sale for $3. Most of the components, such as the
Weinmann center-pull brakes, Simplex derailleurs, and
Nervar(?) aluminum crankset are rebranded "Peugeot." The
14-28 freewheel was French-threaded.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Slender Seatpost Needed posted by Hilary Stone on 8/16/2000 at 11:00:57 AM
I have 24mm diameter aluminium micro-adjust seatpins in stock including quite a long one as they are used on Thanet Silverlights. They cost $15 plus shipping at cost.
Hilary Stone

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Slender Seatpost Needed posted by JohnM on 8/17/2000 at 6:10:41 AM
Sounds perfect! Please email me how to reach you at jmellen@compuserve.com. Thanks.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Slender Seatpost Needed posted by Clyde on 8/17/2000 at 9:38:46 PM
Not being able to find an alloy 24 mm seatpost, I "turned" one on my Shopsmith lathe. Starting with a relatively thick-walled Laprade alloy post, I fashioned blocks at either end to align it. Then took my belt sander, turned the lathe on, and ground the metal away until it approached 24mm. Finer grit sandpaper and steel wool finished it off. Hey, I know the Shopsmith is a wood lathe, but it worked. Just make sure your mounting is secure and you use eye and breathing protection.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Can anybody help? posted by: John Seward on 8/14/2000 at 6:27:58 AM
I would like to learn a ballpark value of a middle 1970s campy record-equipped road bike. The frame is by M/M Cycles Ltd. of Harrogate, England, which I've never encountered nor been able to learn anything about. My guess is, the frame is custom built, but I don't know that either. Can anybody give me an objective idea? Please post your thoughts here or email me at Upland87@aol.com. I would be thrilled by and grateful for any informed response.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Can anybody help? posted by Keith on 8/17/2000 at 7:34:35 AM
I'm very far from an expert, and I'm not familiar with the brand, but I'd suggest comparing it to prices for other "small shop" British bikes, like Bob Jackson or Mercian. I'd consult the "Wild Guesses" list by Michael Kone of Bicycle Classics, which can be accessed through www.sheldonbrown.com. Without knowing more, my "wild guess" would be about $700.






MISC:   The Legion Bicycle posted by: Dave Mills on 8/14/2000 at 5:34:45 AM
I am trying to track down any information relating to The Legion Bicycle. It was built in Aston, Birmingham, England from about 1900 up till the General Strike of 1928, which sadly ended production. The factory was owned and run at one time by my Great Grandfather William Henry Sant. Any information regarding this would be greatfully received, (including possible sources).


   RE:MISC:   The Legion Bicycle posted by ChristopherRobin on 8/14/2000 at 9:14:58 AM
Oh My! Another mysterious adventure to go on. I am not done tracking down Wulfruna but I will get to finding out about this one really soon.






AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by: Tom Adams on 8/13/2000 at 5:08:38 PM
Well, another item checked off my list, as I traded with Recycled Cycles in St Louis for a 25 inch '75 Peugeot PX 10. So at long last I have a Nervex bike!

I'm fairly sure of the year from the decals, cross referenced with the PX 10 website. Decals are in amazingly good shape considering the 7,542 chips in the paint (can you tell I'm touching up the nicks now?) Traded straight up for a Trek 730 frame with a Campy NR seatpost and Cinelli bar and stem. (Didn't need the parts as the post was 27.4 and the bars were 38cm.)

The question for the congregation is who can do a repaint and frame modernization? I'm putting a replacement fork on temporarily so I can ride it with a standard headset and bars. I'm intending to have the rear derailer hanger replaced and a new steerer tube installed as part of the update to avoid future parts problems. Anyone with experience on doing this? What did it cost?
Thanks for your time!


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by Brian L. on 8/13/2000 at 7:03:46 PM
The question is why dump so much money (new fork, frame work, paint and decals) into changing a decent Peugeot frame when for the same money you could have bought a nice vintage Paramount, or any number of other Nervex frames? If you're going to go to all that work, I've got a cool early 50's (my guess) Freddy Grubb that needs a new seat tube that's up for grabs.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by Tom Adams on 8/13/2000 at 8:42:22 PM
Because old Paramounts or Raleigh Internationals usually also need paint just like my Peugeot, but none of them have ever won the Tour de France. Paramounts that don't need a repaint are mucho dinero, whereas I have a minimal investment so far. Since I'm thinking of having it repainted anyway, why not have the frame work done also?

Of course it never makes economic sense to have an old frame repainted; much cheaper to throw it out and buy a tig welded, gazillion speed indexed shifting Orient special. But not as much fun. By the way, what size is that Grubb?

The question again, is how much will it cost to have the frame updated (new derailer hanger and fork steerer tube)and painted? Any recommendations on someone to do the work?

BTW, another frame quirk: the rear tire must be deflated before the rear wheel can be fitted into the frame. How can this be with a bike with 17 3/4 inch chainstays? Because the chainstay bridge is 3.5 inches behind the BB spindle (C-C) and bumps the tire before the axle can enter the dropouts. I've never seen a chainstay brace that far back. The tires are Specialized 700-28, so its not like I'm running balloons. Oh those French!

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by Brian L. on 8/14/2000 at 6:00:10 AM
I'd have to go measure to be absolutely positive, but Freddie is about 56 square (probably a bit shorter top tube).

I don't mean to be argumentive, but I have seen lots of Paramount frames for sale both on the web and at swap meets in the high $200 - low $300 price range for nice, presentable, if a bit faded frames, often with some components. Then there are all the other Nervex frames like the complete Raphael Geminani team issue that I'm still kicking myself that I didn't but for $350. You could easily spent that amount on a Cyclart paint job. Even a good powder coat costs between $150 - $250 with sales tax. In any case, if you live in the Seattle area, there are lots of shops to help you out. One of my favorite is "Bikesmith" on 45th in Wallingford. Val can do all sorts of creative things, including most minor brazing, and can re-thread Simplex drop outs and French BB's to accept standard stuff.

B

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by Keith on 8/14/2000 at 6:37:18 AM
I had a good experience with Paul at Recycled Cycles. I think Brian raises legitimate questions, but you have a good response -- the PX-10 indeed has a rich history, although it was mostly in the 60s, I believe. The website on PX-10s is pretty impressive. Still, I wouldn't sink lots of money into one unless you have the PX-10 bug in the worst possible way. So, overall, I agree with Brian, and would not sink 100s into a 70s PX-10 to do a complete, accurate restoration. Rather, I'd clean it, do touch-up, and polish it, and save my money for a nicer complete bike, which is waiting out there somewhere for you if you're patient. (A similar, complete and original early 70s Gitane Tour de France went on Ebay for about $220 a few weeks ago). I understand your fondness for Nervex pros -- they kind of define that era.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by Keith on 8/14/2000 at 6:59:31 AM
One omre thought: In my opinion, the appearance of the PX-10, with black Nervex lugs, white tubes, and lion headbadge, is distinctive enough that the bike would retain it's "retro" appearance even if outfitted with non-original parts. I recently worked on one for a friend, who updated with new Campy triple, and had old non-original Campy Record brakes. It still stands out as a vintage PX-10.

    Peugeot PX10 upgrades/updates posted by John E on 8/14/2000 at 9:29:52 AM
Do you really need to replace the derailleur hanger? With a
little filing, the Simplex dropout of my 1980 PKN-10E (a
PX-10 pretender with a Reynolds 531 main triangle) easily
accepted my SunTour Cyclone derailleur. I was also able to
install a new 27.2mm Salsa stem, with minor sanding, in the
original steerer tube.

Here in San Diego County, CA, CycleArt does great custom
paint jobs, but how much do you really want to spend on that
particular frame? Also, before spending much money on the
bike, check the chainstays, Peugeot's notorious weak spot,
for small cracks and other signs of eventual failure.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by Tom Adams on 8/14/2000 at 6:28:52 PM
Well, if I can get the painting and updates for $300, I'll have a finished pristine bike for around $400 with modern durable paint, and one with a "better" pedigree than a road Paramount. So my hypothetical repainted PX 10 is a "better" value than a patina'ed Paramount.

We're not shooting for a concours restoration, just an updating of the frame to take english components and a fresh coat of paint with basic decals. The parts right now are coming from the dreaded "box at the back of the garage" and the used/sale tables at local shops. Cost so far is under $100, and that is mainly for chain, cable housing, bar tape and such. I'm sharing wheels with another bike until I decide if I want a dedicated wheelset for the Peugeot. Pristine Paramounts I've seen run in the $800 to $1,000 range. The $300 ones I've seen have usually needed paint pretty badly. If you like Paramounts, fine, but there's no reason not to put equivalent money into a PX 10. They seem to sell as well as Paramounts, and both lag far behind Italian classic steel in market value.

Swap meets and such are out. I'm pretty much limited to Internet shopping as Kansas City isn't a real strong cycling center. Vintage bike merchants are rare indeed. Old Town Cyclery in Lenexa KS is a pleasant exception.

Too bad the Grubb isn't bigger.

The drop out is already threaded and I've got a Duopar to run fine with a lock washer instead of the derailer tab stop washer, but if a new derailer tab can be fitted during painting for not too much, why not do it? That has to be the most common frame repair in the world, replacing a broken derailer tab.

Don't forget that PX 10 glory days extended into the '70s with Bernard Thevent's victories in the '75 and '77 Tour De France. Of course I'm sure his bikes were far from "stock".

Again, the question is what is the price range for the paint and frame work? CycleArt does beautiful stuff, but is probably too pricy for me. Can anyone recommend a builder/painter?

Thanks to everyone for the concern and helpful hints. Vive Le France!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by jim on 8/14/2000 at 6:57:14 PM
PX10s show up on the ebay almost every month. A couple of months ago someone had a 25" frame and another person had a larger frame with campy parts a few months before that. I've seen ads in the local newspaper for PX10s every so often (in the $200 range). I've found two PX10s at second hand stores. The money you save by not restoring the PX10 you just bought you can use for a nice all original one. If I ever run accross a 25" inch frame I'd even sell it to you. PX10s arent that rare, If you keep looking you'll find a real classic one.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by jim on 8/14/2000 at 6:57:49 PM
PX10s show up on the ebay almost every month. A couple of months ago someone had a 25" frame and another person had a larger frame with campy parts a few months before that. I've seen ads in the local newspaper for PX10s every so often (in the $200 range). I've found two PX10s at second hand stores. The money you save by not restoring the PX10 you just bought you can use for a nice all original one. If I ever run accross a 25" inch frame I'd even sell it to you. PX10s arent that rare, If you keep looking you'll find a real classic one.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Nervex at last! Peugeot PX10 resto posted by Keith on 8/16/2000 at 6:06:12 AM
Tom is right about Thevent -- I went back to look at some pics and his '75 bike had the white paint, red Peugeot badge, and had those easy-to-spot Mafacs. In looking at other pictures, it's clear this basic setup was prominent in the peloton from about 1955 through the 60s, with Mercier and Gitane models showing up in many old TDF photos. Still, by the time the 70s rolled around, the PX-10 and its cousins were considered second-tier bikes, and were imported in fairly large numbers for that very reason. A young rider could save the $225-250 for such a bike that much faster than the $325-350 needed for a Campy NR model. And as I recall, the PX-10s and Gitane TDFs were advertised as weighing 21 or 21 and 1/2 pounds -- a tad lighter than a stock Campy NR bike. So heck, if you go all out on this one, and you're happy with it, that's great!






AGE / VALUE:   Campagnello Valentino Derailluers posted by: Tom Faust on 8/12/2000 at 6:55:58 PM
I stripped the front and rear derailluers (Campanello Valentino) off an old wreck. I am told that these are low line and not worth keeping. Opinions?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnello Valentino Derailluers posted by Oscar on 8/13/2000 at 4:38:42 PM
You're right that the Valentino's were Campy's low-line derailleurs. Of course, they are useful for restoration. If you would part with the front der for a reasonable price, please let me know.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnello Valentino Derailluers posted by Brian L. on 8/13/2000 at 7:00:40 PM
Not worth much other than interest/entertainment value. They certainly harken back to an earlier period (starting in the 30's up to the early 50's) when their design would have been considered top of the line.

   the Edsel of Campy derailleurs posted by John E on 8/14/2000 at 9:37:32 AM
According to Berto, Shepherd and Henry ("The Dancing Chain,"
page 180), "The Campag. Valentino rear derailleur was an
economy model with a stamped steel parallelogram. If you
were Tullio's son, Valentino, wouldn't you get an
inferiority complex?" Oh well, Henry Ford did the same
thing to his son, Edsel, in the late 1950s.

By the way, Tullio would turn 99 on 26 August this year, if
he were still around.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnello Valentino Derailluers posted by Keith on 8/14/2000 at 1:01:39 PM
Another confession. When I was 13 years old, I got a Valentino rear derailleur and put it on my Gitane Interclub (replaced Huret) so I could have something Campy on it. It worked well enough on a 13-21 freewheel. They supposedly have brass bushings inside and are well made aside from the stamped steel aspect. I have an early 70s book that goes into almost laughable detail comparing the various rear derailleurs of the day, and it rated the Valentino above the Simplex Prestige and Huret Alvit, and about on par with Suntour V, though not as smooth as the latter until broken in (I respectfully disagree, and would rate the Valentino well below the Suntour V). I believe the front Valentino is push-rod, and a real piece of junk. Buy hey, it's Italian, and it's Campy!






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   More Roadies on the Road? posted by: Keith on 8/11/2000 at 7:07:18 AM
Since Lance won his TDF II, and we also had the Wendy's Classic race locally, I've seen many more people out on thebike path on their old road bikes -- I think they got inspired and dusted them off! Anyone else see this? (One friend in Colorado sais he saw a similar reaction after a big local race.)


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   More Roadies on the Road? posted by Fred on 8/11/2000 at 8:16:26 AM
I have seen an increase in the number of road riders passing my house which is on one of the preferred country roads for biking. Another indicator is the increased number of bike boxes in back of my favorite shop. I was in the shop yesterday and the owner said to come back today and see 2 titanium Litespeeds being assembled. Thats serious bike hardware not often seen in this area.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   More Roadies on the Road? posted by Keith on 8/11/2000 at 10:33:17 AM
Here's the best one: a few days ago I saw a kid with a BMX bike, with DROP handlebars!

   the Armstrong Effect posted by John E on 8/11/2000 at 2:46:27 PM
I hope you are right, Keith. I am very active in the San
Diego County Bicycle Coalition, which actively promotes
cycling for transportation as well as recreation. I hope
Lance is able to do for cyclists what he is already doing
for cancer survivors.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mercier posted by: ART on 8/10/2000 at 4:02:21 PM
I have a Mercier bike with the words le Velo de Mercier on it and a decal of a racer with his hands held up on the head tube. It has a French written decal that says that it is Colombus tubing. Anyone know this bike?


    Mercier posted by John E on 8/11/2000 at 6:29:12 AM
One of my partners on the 1972 Los Angeles Wheelmen Double
Century rode a Mercier and seemed happy with it; I have
seen very few others. Assuming it has mostly original
equipment, you can often estimate a bike's age from its
components. For example, 5-speed freewheels were popular
until the early 1980s, when 6 speeds became standard. The
histories of Campag., Simplex, SunTour, Shimano, etc.
derailleurs are well-documented in Frank Berto's "The
Dancing Chain," which I strongly recommend to almost anyone
who frequents this discussion area. Short-reach racing
sidepull brakes displaced center pulls in the mid-1970s. Let
us know what components your Mercier has, and someone can
probably give you more information about it. Francophile
Sheldon Brown (sheldonbrown.com) probably knows alot more
about your bike than I do. Let us know what you learn!

   RE: Mercier posted by ART on 8/11/2000 at 7:10:25 AM
The prpblem is that I got this bike only as a frame...I have no idea what components it had. Simplex? Campy? Stronglight?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mercier posted by Keith on 8/11/2000 at 8:21:40 AM
There were a fair number of these in central Ohio in the 70s. They were thought of as nice but not great -- on par with Peugeot or Gitane. I recall they had a full range of models -- high end, mid-range, etc. The Columbus sticker suggests a higher end bike. You can confirm this by examining the dropouts -- if they are Campy, then it's a top-end bike that probably came with Campy stuff. If it has Simplex dropouts, then I would guess it had the better Simplex/Mafac/Stronglight stuff, like a PX-10. If the dropouts are plain, and there's no built-in derailleur hanger, then I'd suspect someone put a Columbus sticker on a cheap frame. I really don't recall any French bikes built with Columbus, though undoubtedly there were some. If the dropouts are Suntour or Shimano, or shorter, then it's probably a later (late 70s-80s) machine. People often thought I rode a Mercier because Mercians were not common here in the 70s.

    Mercier posted by John E on 8/11/2000 at 2:37:00 PM
According to sheldonbrown.com, there were two primary
Mercier models, a carbon steel one comparable to the Peugeot
U-08, and a PX-10-like Reynolds 531 model. My late friend's
1970(?) Mercier had Stronglight cranks, upscale Simplex
derailleurs, an Ideale tensioned leather saddle, Normandy
Luxe Competition hubs, a 5-speed freewheel, and Mafac
center-pull brakes. (The Columbus sticker surprises me, too.
All of the upscale steel French frames I have seen have had
Reynolds tubing.)

Because I like French frames far more than French
components, and because it is probably not a collectible, I
would build it up with whatever components I liked that also
happened to fit the French diameters and threads. It should
be a nice, comfortable touring or century bike, rather than
a fast climber or criterium machine. Good luck with your
project!

   RE: Mercier posted by ART on 8/11/2000 at 5:06:30 PM
Here's more for you guys. The dropouts appear to be Vitus...that is, above the rear derailleur is stamped Vitus really small(I missed it at first). I know Vitus as a bike maker but I've never seen the name on dropouts on a bike...? The top of the fork crown has Mercier stamped into it, but that's not as unusual as the Vitus dropouts.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mercier posted by Jim on 8/12/2000 at 5:39:33 PM
I had a mercier catalog from the mid seventies and they were very similar to the peugeots and gitanes, with mafac, simplex, normandy etc (with the exception of the decals which looked like, they were simply white letters screened on rather than multi-colored metalic stickers). I also have a "Guinness guide to bicycling" that shows Merciers with full campagnolo gruppos and one has campagnolo drilled dropouts and engraved campagnolo derailers and cranks. I've also seen Bertins, and Motobecanes that have had frames made of columbus.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mercier posted by Jim on 8/12/2000 at 5:40:43 PM
I had a mercier catalog from the mid seventies and they were very similar to the peugeots and gitanes, with mafac, simplex, normandy etc (with the exception of the decals which looked like, they were simply white letters screened on rather than multi-colored metalic stickers). I also have a "Guinness guide to bicycling" that shows Merciers with full campagnolo gruppos and one has campagnolo drilled dropouts and engraved campagnolo derailers and cranks. I've also seen Bertins, and Motobecanes that have had frames made of columbus.






MISC:   Armstrong posted by: ART on 8/10/2000 at 3:51:57 PM
I just finished reading Lance Armstrong's book It's Not About the Bike and I really enjoyed it.I didn't realize that for this elite class of racers that everything is so dependent on technology in order to obtain optimum results...I think its cool but I love looking at old photos of the Tour and knowing that those men did it without heart rate monitors, having their V0 2 measured, or having a coach screaming stuff in their ear via radio as they raced. I learned some things about the politics of the peleton that I didn't know. And I think Armstrong's story-his cancer and recovery--is amazing.


   RE:MISC:   Armstrong posted by Keith on 8/11/2000 at 7:06:49 AM
Art -- right after I read Armstrong's book, I read Buzzati's Giro de Italia, which covers the 1949 Giro with Bartoli and Coppi. Bartoli smoked. No heart rate monitor for him.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Armstrong posted by Fred on 8/11/2000 at 6:43:16 PM
The most amazing thing is; Lance says he would never have been winner of the Tour de France if he had not had cancer.
It seems that he came out of the ordeal with a changed body from muscular to a much slimmer and lighter form. Everyone should read his book. It is unbelievable that he came out of it alive much less a world class athlete






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Gerald Ginet posted by: Tom Faust on 8/8/2000 at 7:12:42 PM
I recently picked up a 1972 Gerald Ginet 10 spd. from the original owner. While is is in very good condition, the chrome (mylar) decals indicate that the emphasis was on glitz rather than quality. All the running gear is Simplex. My question, the brakes are marked only "Racer". Does anyone know what they are?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Gerald Ginet posted by Brian Slick on 8/9/2000 at 7:43:09 AM
CLB made a copy of Mafac Racers labeled "Racer". You can buy these NOS from renaissance-cycles.com, which is a pretty amazing vintage resource web site.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Gerald Ginet posted by Tom Faust on 8/9/2000 at 8:21:30 PM
Brian, right you are. Since reading your post I have found a faint CLB casting mark. I didn't recognize the name.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Gerald Ginet posted by Bruce VR on 8/9/2000 at 9:08:26 PM
BC (from http://www.renaissance-cycles.com/) gets several hundred of my hard-earned dollars every month!! That site will be my downfall... He has it all from NOS Campy everything to rare French stuff, I give him 4 STARs as the best and cheapest NOS bicycle parts source anywhere on earth. He's at least 50% cheaper than Bike Classiks! Beware, once you buy from him it won't be easy to stop...

Bruce VR

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Gerald Ginet posted by Brian L. on 8/10/2000 at 1:03:22 PM
Absolutely. Got a cool Colnago jersey in my size I've got to buy on the next paycheck.






AGE / VALUE:   Prices -- can't figure it out! posted by: Keith on 8/8/2000 at 12:49:44 PM
I noticed a WOMENS Raleigh Gran Prix on Ebay that's been bid up to $305! It is mid-70s (has Raleigh branded Suntour, Sugino, etc.), and has a plain steel frame (one pic has a closeup of the frame sticker). And yet a week ago a guy was unable to get more than $455 for his '72 Schwinn Paramount, which seemed to be pretty clean. I've been following Campy-equiped lightweights on Ebay and a lot of them go without bids or for a relatively modest price -- way below the Bicycle Classics suggested prices. The lesson -- prices for vintage lightweights are all over the place. So, go ahead and put your UO-8 or mid-range Fuji on Ebay -- with nice pictures maybe it will fetch several $100s!


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Prices -- can't figure it out! posted by Keith on 8/8/2000 at 1:03:22 PM
PS -- sorry, it's a Gran Sport. Everything else is correct. # 398 255 185

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Prices -- can't figure it out! posted by Bruce VR on 8/9/2000 at 9:14:02 PM
Problem with E-Bay is it's sometime hard to tell what you're really bidding on, "Cinelli SuperCorsa" means a lot to people on this site, but if it's after about 1978 it's worth about half of what a nice one is worth. Go by the bidder's feedback and you'll find many good dudes, John Barron (a rock of trust-worthiness) just sold a sweet chrome Jack Taylor, I believe it didn't get bid up too much... Buyer beware of the ones without pics or little feedback!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Prices -- can't figure it out! posted by jim on 8/10/2000 at 12:29:25 AM
How about some of the stories or information that go along with the bikes. One person selling a centurion Le Mans, said Greg Lemond rode one like it in the tour de france. Another person said Frejus went out of business when the Luistania sank with all their bicylces. Or the persons who say they spent so much on parts and tune ups (one person said they spent $1500 on parts and a tuneup on a bicycle). And lastly the person who has the same bikes on auction for a month at a time priced in the $500-1000 range with vinyl seats at 45 angles, safety brake levers and womens frames under the category "peugeot racing bike under 21 lbs".

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Prices -- can't figure it out! posted by Keith on 8/10/2000 at 6:30:45 AM
You're right -- everything is "RARE" on Ebay. I still haven't figured it out - it's almost as if Ebay compresses the values of items -- everything is worth something, but nothing is worth very much. So absolute junk sometimes gets a high price, but pretty cool stuff may go very low. It's not the only or best way to look at bike values, but it is certainly a factor that must be weighed with all of the other information out there. But if you want a real chuckle on pricing, go to the Yahoo auction site.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Prices -- can't figure it out! posted by Keith on 8/10/2000 at 8:54:06 AM
P.S. The lowly women's Gran Sport has now been bid up to $405! Either there's gold coins hidden in the frame, or there's something else very strange going on.