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Archived: Vintage Lightweights







AGE / VALUE:   AMF Hercules posted by: stingrayman on 6/4/2002 at 6:25:04 PM
I have found 2 AMF Hercules bicycles. I am not sure about the age or models. One is a male style and is black with black fenders and chrome handlebars. The seat is black and white. The other one is a female model. It is blue with chrome fenders and handlebars. It has a straight blue seat. It also has a chrome chainguard with no writing on it.
Both of the bikes have a head badge that say Hercules on it. Also they have a symbol on the frame that says "Genuine English Lightweight." These bikes are in almost mint condition. I would like to know much more about them. If you have any imformation please post a message or email me.


Thanks!


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   AMF Hercules posted by Keith on 6/4/2002 at 6:51:37 PM
This is an English 3-speed made by Raleigh Industries, which bought out Hercules sometime in teh 60s, I believe. It's a nice bike suitable for commuting and riding around the neighborhood. The date can be determined by looking on the rear hub, which should be a Sturmey Archer AW. It will have "70" "68" etc. I currently have the same bike in dark green, dated 1970 -- the chrome is a nice touch. I paid $20 for it at a garage sale. There are a few English Roadster fans who might want it, but even they focus on the lager roadsters or more deluxe Superbe and Sports models, and prefer older bikes with full chaincases and rod-operated stirrup brakes. One of them might pay up to $50 for it. Maybe. Go to sheldonbrown.com and follow the links to Harris anmd old bikes, and you'll find extensive articles on the history and servicing of English 3-speeds.

   RE: AMF Hercules posted by Elvis on 6/4/2002 at 9:15:20 PM
Hi. Hercules, from what I understand, is a decent make bike. Sokme early 3-speeds are encountered with drop bars, something like Raliegh club ride bikes fromt he 40's ands 50's. They made 3 speeds up through the 70's, and may be still making them, for all I know. If the paint is in decent shape with no peeling and rust, hold onto it if you got room in your garage. Most of the ones I've seen are in pretty bad shape cosmetically even if the mechanics are good. By the way, is the writing on the frame a gold that shines like spot-polished metal? I saw one of these thrown out when on a ride last year; black adn chrome like yours but with that gold writing. Was gonna pic it up, throw on some drop bars and build my own retro type club bike, but the darn thing was gone when I came back with my car. Best of luck to you, and don't forget to check out the Raliegh diagrams on this site; they show how the rear hub is put together!

   Cool thing about 3-speed hubs.. posted by Elvis on 6/4/2002 at 9:18:03 PM
OOPS! I forgot to mention that the neat thing about 3-speed hubs which sort of makes up for their weight, the lack of a quick release [as on ten speeds and up] and other things which i look for: They can be shifted while stopped in traffic! This is a boon especially if you ride where there are hills, as town planners generally put lights, stop signs, and other obstacles on hills so stopped cyclists with derailuer equipped rides can't get going again, or slide backwards trying to shift out of harder gears when the lights change!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   AMF Hercules posted by Gralyn on 6/5/2002 at 11:37:22 AM
Yes, I believe that Raleigh bought Hercules in 1960 - and that Raleigh-Hercules bikes were distributed by AMF. Thus, the AMF/Hercules. So, I would think that the bikes would date to 1960 and later. I have an old Hercules, with brass head badge, and when I stripped it down to the original paint - I found "AMF" lettering. I have another Hercules, 10 speed (1/2 step shifting) - it's 26" 1 3/8 wheels - but only has Hercules on it...no AMF...so I am assuming it is before 1960. My Hercules/AMF may have also originally been a 3-speed. It's currently set-up as a fixed-gear, track-style bike.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   AMF Hercules posted by Warren on 6/5/2002 at 1:05:48 PM
It's easy to tell whether you Herc is a Raleigh. Rear fender eyelets will be located directly behind the axle (instead of above) and the removeable cup will have a raised parallel flats for the Raleigh cup removal tool as opposed to British standard pin tool holes. Of course it will have 26 tpi instead of 24 but this way you don't have to dismantle it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   AMF Hercules posted by Keith on 6/5/2002 at 3:56:05 PM
Since he mentions chainguards I doubt they are 10 speeds. Sounds like the garden variety English 3-speed to me -- a great utilitarian bike, but not rare or particularly valuable.






AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by: smg on 6/4/2002 at 5:44:24 PM
There is a Stronglight #63 crankset on eBay (1833831339) that has been bid up to $560.00 so far. Anybody have an idea why this crank is attracting so much action? My own experience with Stronglight components was uniformly good, but this seems just plain crazy, like Capt. Ahab chasing Moby Dick. . .!


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by Oscar on 6/4/2002 at 7:50:37 PM
I've heard that Japanese collectors pay unreal money for French bikes and components. Look at the names of the bidders and decide for yourself if they sound Japanese.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by Steven on 6/5/2002 at 3:06:16 AM
Look at what other things Kauzo has bought previously too. You will see that he also favors Italian vintage goods. I expect to perhaps resell because you can't possibly make use of all that stuff for yourself.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by Keith on 6/6/2002 at 6:34:02 PM
That's a very fair observation -- the short-lived 80s Mavic groupo seemed wonderful-- better thought out than Campy in that the components were more readily rebuildable. My 80s vintage Mavic hubs are still going strong, having recently been re-laced with Mavic rims. And I do have a late metal Simplex long cage rear that seems, well, as good as a Japanese derailleur. But the common stuff in the early 70s like Normandy, Simplex, and, I'm sorry, Stronglight, not to mention Peugeot, was so poor in quality that I reflexively feel suspicious about anything Made in France, at least from that era.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by Keith on 6/5/2002 at 4:04:54 PM
I've never owned a Stronglight alloy crank -- I had one steel model. I've worked on them, however, and I can only say that like Normandy hubs, the races and bearings seem to become pitted after a few thousand miles (crunch crunch). I've always thought the only choices with French bearings were loose or rough. I guess the more recent Stronglight headsets have a better rep -- no firsthand experience there. I recall Art telling about his stuck 93 a while back -- took it to the LBS, which used the right puller, but the threads pulled right out, causing the mechanic to utter the refrain, "ahh, French aluminum" (okay, Mavic excepted). Bottom line: high-end collecting can become downright escoteric! Maybe he wants one of every item pictured in the Data Book.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by Steven on 6/5/2002 at 10:45:03 PM
Stronglight headsets are the best around, bar none. I have a stronglight chainset and bottom bracket from the early 80's on one bike and after close to 20K km it is still in great shape with no pitting and very little wear on the chainrings. Sedisport chains are also probably the best vintage chains around. TA also makes incredibly good chainsets. Maxicar hubs are also world leaders for tandems and had sealed bearings well before anybody else. The best friction gear levers are also French, so whereas I would be the last to laud their general levels of quality, I do recognize their occasional streaks of genius. The top French stuff is great, the average stuff pales by comparison to Far Eastern of Italian wares.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by Wings on 6/6/2002 at 6:18:45 AM
Does this mean half a crankset would be worth $300???? I am missing the left crank arm. :)

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Stronglight crank posted by Steven on 6/7/2002 at 6:56:38 AM
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. While there was much garbage coming out of France: Normandy, Atom, Atax, Simplex... etc there were also some fantastic components. Unfortunately, they were rarely speced on North American bikes and were therefore unknown. In the same way, there were many true garbage Japanese and Italian parts too. Luckily, they rarely made it over to North America. The French therefore suffered destruction of their reputation from their own sales success. This sales success was brought about by supplying the best product for the price.






AGE / VALUE:   DAWES ? posted by: Elvis on 6/4/2002 at 6:57:17 AM
Hi all! Tonight I found a Dawes, but am not sure of the model or age. It is red with a light blue head tube and same color stripes on seat tube. Says "dawes" in white on downtube and there's part of a model name on top tube, but not clear what. One side has the letters "RA e" and the other has "M". The bike has a narrow r. wheel with five gears and two gears up front, suntour Apex cranks and a "GB forged" bar stem. "Dawes" handlebars, Wienmann sidepull brakes a funny color, like a purplish dark blue. Wingnuts, no quick release; fluted seatpost and Brooks Bros seat with big rivets. Any idea on model or age, and what price spectrum it'd fit in? I've never ever seen a Dawes before in person so i'm clueless here, any responses are appreciated. Thanks!


     DAWES posted by John E on 6/4/2002 at 2:21:01 PM
My guess: lower-end, ordinary carbon steel frame, ca. 1976, comparable to Raleigh Record or Peugeot AO-8. The 2x5 gearing says pre-1979, whereas the sidepull brakes say post-1974 (and/or very low-end, ala Schwinn Varsity).

   Interesting posted by Walter on 6/4/2002 at 2:25:49 PM
Dawes is English and yours sounds older esp. with the wingnuts and GB stem. If this is a Reynolds frame and the wingnutted wheels aew OEM that could place the bike back into the 1960s. Reynolds decals are fragile but look for the remains on the seat tube maybe 4-5 inches or less from the top.

If the frame is an older quality Dawes then the crankset is not original in all liklihood.

Tell us more about the wheels. Aluminum rims? What brand hubs?

   RE:Interesting posted by Walter on 6/4/2002 at 2:31:38 PM
Courtesy of Sheldon Brown's Vintageprice guide....

Dawes
Production bikes ranging from just OK to quite interesting. There is an interesting drawing of a Dawes in the Data Book from the 50's. The majority of Dawes in the 70's did not have full Campy N.R. - the Galaxy was one such model. Very common and impressive with its 531 tubes but not spectacular otherwise. Figure for such a bike $ 300 or so. For top-end full N.R. bikes maybe $575. There were some interesting bright pink team issue frames
from the 70's that were pretty nifty. Such bikes full N.R. should probably be worth $750 ish. Need a buyer who can deal with pink. Early 50's bikes such as the one in the Data Book with fun parts are probably worth in the thousand range - maybe. On old bikes the parts details are everything!

John E. may well be right. Dawes was a big maker and probably made some cheaper ones. If it is older it no longer has alot of its original parts. Weigh it if you can. If it's under #24 or so it should be a decent frame.

   RE:RE:Interesting posted by freeespirit on 6/4/2002 at 3:31:37 PM
IN the 70s Dawes made a Galaxy and Super Galaxy with 531 straight gauge main tubes and the GB stem and bars, 10 speeds with simplex derailers, cottered crank, weinmann centerpull brakes, stamped steel dropouts and pretty if not plain one color paint. Almost the same components as a Raleigh grand prix or Peugoet uo-8 or any 70s european bikes of that era. Ive also seen a Dawes double blue with full 531 and campy NR.

   RE:Interesting DAWES posted by Elvis on 6/4/2002 at 5:14:10 PM
Thanks all. more details -- the frame has a sticker [or remains of one] towards top of seat tube. "reynolds 531" egible, but sticker is wearing 'round the edges. The rims appear to be steel, maybe thats the reason for the weight. Sidepull brakes say wienmann type 500 and are a strange purplish color. The bike isn't pink, as some suggested models you all mentioned [thaNK GOD], but the head tube badge has the colors pink, white, and the same color blue as the headtube. Lyotard pedals and downtube shifters. The fork is more than half chrome and has very little forward curve -0- looks almost streat, but the slight curve it has is so simetricals on both blades I doubt it was bent -- probably came like that. any ideas if it is a low end dawes or higher end -- or at least middle of the spectrum? The bike also came with presta valve tires in the old wheels -- first time I've seen that -- and the wheels have narrow hubs, not the wide flange kind sometimes seen on older road bikes...

   Reynolds 531 posted by John E on 6/4/2002 at 6:25:05 PM
If the "531" is printed horizontally, you probably have either a straight-gauge main triangle (Raleigh Super Course)or a mid-level mixed-tube frame (double-butted 531 main triangle, carbon steel elsewhere, comparable to a Peugeot PR-10/PKN-10 or a Bianchi or other Italian Columbus Tre Tubi frame). If the "531" is diagonal, you have a high-end full-Reynolds frame. That 531 tubing definitely pulls your Dawes up out of the bargain basement!

   RE:  DAWES posted by Hallyx on 6/4/2002 at 7:09:40 PM
The letters R A E and M appear in the model name "RealmRider," a model lower than the Galaxy. I'm not sure it used 531 tubing (I've only seen one).

Those letters also appear in the model designation "Super Galaxy," although in a different order than you've stated. As mentioned, the Galaxy and Super Galaxy models were made with 531.

Was the Super Galaxy (NR equipped) built with straight gauge tubing?

A few weeks back, Christopher Robin offered to research and enlighten us on Dawes, the company and it's products, especially the vintage stuff. My scant info indicates it should be an interesting story of a unique little company (still in business) and its quality-for-the-price products. How about it, Chris? Would you do us the honors?

Thanks,

Hallyx

   RE:  DAWES posted by Elvis on 6/4/2002 at 10:03:14 PM
Thanks. Actually, the letters aren't much help, but the order doesn't jibe with either model mentioned, unless the brits spell Realm "Raelm". I wish the full name was on there!
One more thing; the bars aren't GB, only the stem is; the bars are marked "dawes" on either side of the stem and have a slope on the straight top parts down to where the drops start. Also, the rear drop out have vary thin adjusting screws protruding from them, apparently to line up the rear axle.
I rode this bike about 15 miles today to test it out. It's really comfortable in the drops, and not too bad with hands on the brakes hoods. Front wheel needs trueing slightly, though. The gears in the back seem easy to ride in but also easy to go faster in, and the suntour stuff doesn't shift badly at all; going uphill it sometimes shifts cleaner than the Dura-ace on my newer and racier Puch [i wonder why that is...?]
P.S. - the GB stem is held on by an inset allen wrench bolt through the top, flush with the surface, not a normal bolt head as on some older bikes I've seen -- and the threaded ring below it on top of the fork says "tange".

   Interesting posted by Walter on 6/5/2002 at 2:48:42 AM
You've got a frame that is to a lesser or greater extent 531 and it has rear dropouts with adjustors, something often assocated with a quality frame.

But, steel rims and wing nuts either means old or cheap 1970s. Any brand markings on rims/hubs? It doesn't seem to be a cheap frame but if it's old the most of the parts have been swapped. Getting rid of a cottered crank is, IMO, emminently logical but why do that and keep a wheelset like that?

Old bikes make for neat mysteries! Keep us posted.

   RE:Dawes wheels, etc. .. posted by Elvis on 6/5/2002 at 4:40:37 AM
Thanks! The wheels actually say "Raleigh England". But since dawes is still operating under its own name [i went to their web site, no help there its all new bikes] I do not believe they used Raliegh rims. The previous bike owner must have replaced the rims, perhaps pulling them off a Raliegh to keep the bike rideable. Yet, the presta valve tubes are an odity; I've never seen that on a cheap Raliehg. And the wingnuts, however, do not appear cheap -- they look and feel solid, and are an odd shape -- on one side of the threaded axle hole there is a curved handle, and the other side there is a little round flat thing for the thumb. My guess is the wingnuts were original. But I really would like to know the model name. Any one ever heard of Wienmann Type 500 sidepulls? I've never seen brakes in any color except black and silver, these are really wierd looking, but cool.

   RE:RE:Dawes wheels, etc. .. posted by Steven on 6/5/2002 at 12:27:31 PM
Presta valves have been standard issue on virtually all bikes in Europe for years, so it could be that the wheels came off a European market model. Just like 27" wheels were never used in continental Europe, neither were schrader valves (car tire style); at least not until the advent of mountain bikes. My daughter's 16" wheeled bike has presta valves.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Austro Daimler Vent Noir posted by: Paul S on 6/4/2002 at 1:50:58 AM
I recently became the owner of a Austro Daimler Vent Noir frameset from, I believe, the later 70's. Besides being constructed of 531 tubing and having a unique plated finish I don't know much about this model or the AD brand in general. I'd appreciate it if anyone could share any information,photos,etc on what the original component selection might have been as well as where this model ranked in the AD line.


      Austro Daimler Vent Noir posted by John E on 6/4/2002 at 2:23:48 PM
The top of Austria's Steyr-Daimler-Puch line, your French-named Vent Noir is definitely a keeper. Classicrendezvous.com and sheldonbrown.com have some data on Austro Daimler.

   RE:   Austro Daimler Vent Noir posted by Freeespirit on 6/4/2002 at 7:24:34 PM
I have an Inter-10 with 531 tubing and the reynolds sticker with stars next to the 531. I've also ridden an AD with campy neuvo gran sport components that had a smoked mirror glass finnish. The top of the line AD was the Ultima with campy SR. Some AD'S came with Huret derailers and Nervar cranks as well as japanesse parts too. Everyonce in awhile one will pop up on e-bay.

   RE:Austro Daimler Vent Noir posted by Elvis on 6/4/2002 at 9:10:32 PM
Hi. I just saw this post on AD and had to add my two cents: KEEP THIS BIKE! I have a Puch [earlier incarnation of AD from my limited knowledge]and it rides great -- and AD you mentioned sounds like a model I've heard of, which was made with a special scratch-resistant plating. From what I understand that was the top of the line bike, or close too it. Don't let go of that bike! As mentioned, Classic Rendezvous and Mr. Brown both have great info on such bicycles. You can also do an internet search, but make sure to specify Austro-daimler, not "puch". There are not many sites on the earlier Puchs, and any searches I've done that include both company names just clog up the screen with moped sites [AD/Puch's other main product].

   Wrong place, wrong tine, wrong rthread posted by Walter on 6/6/2002 at 3:01:23 PM
This should be up on the Dawes thread. Ned to pay more attention.

Sorry

   RE:Wrong place, wrong tine, wrong rthread posted by Walter on 6/6/2002 at 8:15:38 PM
I mean the post right below this one by me. I was referring to the Dawes bike in the thread started by Elvis above.

I'll get it right

   RE:RE:Austro Daimler Vent Noir posted by Walter on 6/5/2002 at 2:28:45 PM
FWIW I think it's an older frame or a model never "officially" imported to the US (assuming you are in the US) that has probably been stripped of its original parts and resurrected with whoever acquired the frame had on hand. The Raleigh wheels seem to verify that. It's a good frame and certainly a candidate for a better wheelset. The SunTour stuff, as you noted, works pretty well. If you can get a decent wheelset from a 1970s to mid-1980s bike you'll have a nice ride.

   RE:RE:RE:Austro Daimler Vent Noir posted by peter thomas on 6/6/2002 at 1:59:44 AM
I have an Austro-Daimler "Vent Noir" with what I believe is the smoked-mirror "scratch-resistant" finish. I have never seen a formal reference to this type of finish and have often wondered how to describe it. I purchased it around 15 years ago. Except for some of the decals, it is in like new condition. It has Campy Nuevo Sport components and a 531 main triangle as well as fork. I remember these bikes (from cataloges) from the 70's. Although it is a great ride, I do not ride it anymore preferring to let it hang in the bike room. Always interested in any further info about these bikes...thanks






AGE / VALUE:   Phil Woods hub - 8spd Freewheel posted by: Tim Welsh on 6/3/2002 at 8:03:34 PM
Hi. At a garage sale over the weekend I found a set of older aero wheels. The front is a Spinergy for sew-ups, which is great. The back is a Zipp 'sew-up' rim on a strange Phil Woods hub. The cogset is a Maillard 8-spd. I want 8-spd but .., it is a freewheel, not a freehub & cassette. I asked a LBS, and they said stay away from this hub because the axles broke often, and I could never find another 8-spd freewheel. Does anyone know about this oddity? I could probably get the whole shot for about US $100. Even if I have to find another hub and replace the Phil Woods, are these wheels a good deal? They include 4 sew-up tires (the seller says the tires are worth nearly $100 each). Thanks for any guidance.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Phil Woods hub - 8spd Freewheel posted by Keith on 6/3/2002 at 8:19:05 PM
I always thought the oversized axles in Phil hubs were pretty strong -- people use Phils for tandems -- never heard of one breaking.

   8-speed freewheels posted by John E on 6/3/2002 at 8:58:57 PM
I would avoid any freewheel system with an overlock dimension (dropout width) of more than 126-128mm, i.e., stick with 7 speeds or less for a freewheel. The longer the rear axle, and in particular the longer the distance from the bearing to the dropout, the greater the stress, and the greater the chance for axle breakage.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Phil Woods hub - 8spd Freewheel posted by Walter on 6/5/2002 at 2:20:29 PM
I too am not sure of 8 speed freewheels though I guess if any hub can handle it it'd be a PW. You can alays install a 7 speed FW and avoid the risk. Depending on dimensions you might need a new axle and PW stuff isn't cheap.

If you have to rebuild w/o the PW then I'd say it's a minimal deal at best as the PW hub is a big part of the package. If the wheels are usable as is and you want to deal with sew-ups (not necessarily a bad thing)AND the extra tires are of the quality/condition the seller claims then, IMO, it's not a bad deal. What brand/model sew-ups?






WANTED:   Parts for 1972 Schwinn Super Sport posted by: Uriah Mann on 6/3/2002 at 3:05:00 PM
I need parts for a 1972 Schwinn Super Sport.I need the parts in good condition.The following parts I need are:
3 reflectors for the pedals
a seat
Yellow tape for the handle bars
Kool Lemon touch-up paint


   RE:WANTED:   Parts for 1972 Schwinn Super Sport posted by Tom Findley on 6/4/2002 at 11:10:04 AM
Used seats for lightweights are dols on Ebay. Maybe a seller would also have pedals with reflectors.

Tape:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/head.html#tape

Touch-up paint:

http://www.hyper-formance.com/paints.htm






WANTED:   Parts for 1972 Schwinn Super Sport posted by: Uriah Mann on 6/3/2002 at 3:05:00 PM
I need parts for a 1972 Schwinn Super Sport.I need the parts in good condition.The following parts I need are:
3 reflectors for the pedals
a seat
Yellow tape for the handle bars
Kool Lemon touch-up paint


   RE:WANTED:   Parts for 1972 Schwinn Super Sport posted by Kevin K on 6/4/2002 at 12:08:53 AM
Hi. Just saw a couple rolls of yellow bar tape on ebay so that's a good place to start. Your paint. Go to an automotive paint store. Look at the touch up paints they've got. If need be have some mixed up. 1975 Corvette Yellow is very close to correct. I parted a 72 SS last year. Bike was nice but it was a woman's so.......... anyway I might still have the pedals. I'll check. Email me at kbcurvin@aol.com if you wish. I'll get back to ya. Kevin K

   RE:RE:WANTED:   Parts for 1972 Schwinn Super Sport posted by Maurice on 6/4/2002 at 1:19:22 AM
The yellow handlebar tape on Ebay is item 2109702624. It is NOS tape made by Hunte-Wilde, the main supplier to Schwinn in the late 60's - early '70's for plastic handlebar tape.






AGE / VALUE:   Bianchi with Campagnolo Corsa for sale posted by: Steven on 6/2/2002 at 4:28:57 PM
the following link is for a Bianchi with Campagnolo Corsa that is for sale by a fellow in Sicily. I believe he is looking to get about $1500 for the bike.

http://annunci.tiscali.it/scheda/annuncio/hs405393/


   Bianchi with Campagnolo Corsa posted by John E on 6/2/2002 at 7:22:00 PM
I just saw a very similar Bianchi yesterday at CylcArt. When the owner gets the whole thing assembled with his Cambio Corsa parts, I am looking forward to watching him learn how to shift it.

It reminds me of my friend who was restoring a Ford Model T, wishing he had a Model A, instead. ("The first time I take this thing out for a drive, I'll probably kill myself." For those unfamiliar with the Model T, the gear change (L, H, R, N) is on two foot pedals, and the accelerator is on the steering column. The Model A, in contrast, has a modern control layout.)

   RE:Bianchi with Campagnolo Corsa posted by Steven on 6/4/2002 at 1:38:45 PM
The Corsa is not that hard to use. You should try the first generation Vittoria Margherita gear that I used to have (see a photo of it in the photo database connected to this page, it is listed under Umberto Dei). You had to reach down and move the chain over from one cog to the next by hand (while riding of course!!!) I have a friend in Italy in his 80's who can shift a corsa almost as smoothly as a friction derailleur. Needless to say, it is the only gear that he has ever used.






WANTED:   Jack Taylor posted by: DAN on 6/2/2002 at 5:30:31 AM
Looking for a late 60's/ early 70's Jack Taylor touring bicycle. Prefere complete in decent shape but open to f/f in good condition. Needs to be fairly large size to fit 6'2" 33" inseem. Also looking for a similiar vintage Cyclocross bicycle in decent working order. DAN


   RE:WANTED:   Jack Taylor posted by Bob Hufford on 6/7/2002 at 4:14:36 AM
Saw this on www.recycledcycles.net

62.5cm JACK TAYLOR -- 15 speeds, burgundy -- (Was $600) Now $550
Reynolds 531 frame and fork from an English master. Handmade with original paint and detailing, fancy Nervex lugs, pump peg and other braze-ons. Equipment includes rare Avocet triple crank with half-step plus granny, Phil Wood bottom bracket, Campagnolo front derailleur, brakes and headset. Also: Gran Compe brakes, Suntour rear derailleur. Good condition, some scratches. Includes custom racks front and rear.

paul@recycledcycles.net • (314) 862-4041






AGE / VALUE:   MAVIC regina extra r. wheel! posted by: Elvis on 6/2/2002 at 4:57:23 AM
Hi all. A while ago I found a Matrix front wheel in the rubbish, to replace the aging front wheel on my 70's PUCh road bike. Tonight, I happened to find a MAVIC rear wheel! The wheels both have black rims -- what luck, they match! The cool thing is the Mavic has a Campy hub and skewer, and the gear cluster [marked "regina extra" has 7 gears [my old rear wheel, not nearly as narrow and the wrong color, only had 6] I know new bikes have 8 or 9 gear now in back, so my guess is this r. wheel is several years old. But it seems like new! Also, the gear cluster has smaller gear diameters the inside ones are much smaller than the bigger ones on my old wheel. Was this a racing wheel, intended for hi speed? and any idea on how much Mavics go for? I'd like to get an idea of how much dough I saved!


      MAVIC regina extra r. wheel! posted by John E on 6/2/2002 at 7:27:52 PM
Seven-speed freewheels came in during the mid-to-late 1980s, and require about the same dropout width as standard-spaced (not "ultra") 6-speeds, i.e., 126 to 128mm. Yes, racing gears traditionally have had higher lows (sometimes, but not always, higher highs as well) and tighter ratio spacing than touring or utility gears. You can probably find and substitute a different freewheel if you want lower gears; ideally, it should also have Italian threads, unless your Regina says "BSC" (English threads) somewhere on it.

   RE:   MAVIC regina extra r. wheel! posted by Elvis on 6/4/2002 at 6:28:43 AM
Thanks! Actually, I want to keep the gears -- after trying it out it was so much faster! and much more fun!






AGE / VALUE:   do I have an oddball Masi? posted by: Bret on 6/2/2002 at 4:17:03 AM
I dug back about 2 months in hopes of gleaning some insight about my bike. Some history:

In the late 80s (1988 I think) a friend turned me on to a local bike shop in Orange Co. CA selling a limited number of Masi frames. What I ended up buying is without a question a Masi (lugs identical to the ones I see on the net; chrome forks with the letter M stamped on them). It came in pearl white without decals or lettering. The bottom bracket doesn't have the M stamped or reliefed in it. But it does have the letter M embossed into the rear brake bracket.

IIRC, the story was that these were the last frames made at or by some factory. Knowing that Masi has been made in So Cal since the 70s I figured the factory was moving into new digs or something like that. Does anyone recall any major changes at Masi in the mid-late 80s?

I was supposed to get a decal set and had planned to have a little bit of red painted on the frame to compliment the white. When I saw pics of Brian Bayless' Masi Special, I jumped outta my seat. I saw a Masi identical to that at the shop where I bought mine and I was going to copy that look.

Is there any definitive way to determine if my frame was a Special? Could it be that it was a closeout at the factory, just slapped together to get it out the door? I've read all I can find about Masi but most of the info is focused on people and not product or business history.

Any insight and comment are welcomed. Thanks!


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   do I have an oddball Masi? posted by Warren on 6/2/2002 at 4:13:25 PM
Maybe you could ask Brian Bayliss...he learned to build frames in the Masi shop. Try him at
rocklube@adnc.com






AGE / VALUE:   SCHWINN SUPER SPORT posted by: freeespirit on 6/1/2002 at 8:32:51 PM
Today at a garage sale I found a Schwinn super sport with serial #KK (75?) for $20! It has a nice dark green metallic finnish, huret forged dropouts, brooks B-15 (nicely broken in) saddle, ava stem and weinmann rims. Everything is orginal except the derailers and tires and the fork is all chrome.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SCHWINN SUPER SPORT posted by Kevin K on 6/2/2002 at 1:09:07 AM
Hey ! Nice find. She's a keeper Mr. Freespirt. Kevin K

   Very Interesting posted by Eric Amlie on 6/2/2002 at 4:08:39 AM
Very interesting bike! I don't have my catalogs here with me right now but if I remember right the Super Sport model stopped for a while after the 1973 model (at least according to the catalogs). Your serial number I think denotes a 1974 model (they skipped the letters "I" and "O" so as to avoid confusion with the numbers "1" and "0". Another interesting feature is the forged Huret dropouts. The latest that I have seen these on a Super Sport is 1970. All after that were plain stamped steel like the lower level Schwinn bikes. The color sounds like Campus Green which I thought was also discontinued before 1974 (really wish I had my catalogs here to check all this).Very interesting indeed! Where is the serial number located on the bike?

   Very Interesting posted by Eric Amlie on 6/2/2002 at 4:09:11 AM
Very interesting bike! I don't have my catalogs here with me right now but if I remember right the Super Sport model stopped for a while after the 1973 model (at least according to the catalogs). Your serial number I think denotes a 1974 model (they skipped the letters "I" and "O" so as to avoid confusion with the numbers "1" and "0". Another interesting feature is the forged Huret dropouts. The latest that I have seen these on a Super Sport is 1970. All after that were plain stamped steel like the lower level Schwinn bikes. The color sounds like Campus Green which I thought was also discontinued before 1974 (really wish I had my catalogs here to check all this). Very interesting indeed! Where is the serial number located on the bike?

   RE:Very Interesting posted by FREEESPIRIT on 6/2/2002 at 9:17:46 PM
The full serial # is K7019, if this may help. Where is a good site to look for information on old schwinns.

   RE:RE:Very Interesting posted by FREEESPIRIT on 6/2/2002 at 9:35:59 PM
The seria # is stamped to the left (oposite the freewheel-derailer side) dropout between the where it attaches to the rear stays.

   RE:RE:RE:Very Interesting posted by Kevin K on 6/3/2002 at 4:49:03 AM
Hi. I do not think your SS is a 74. You've got yourself one of the rarer and desireable 60's Super Sports. Great find. Even if you are not a diehard Schwinn such as myself that bike is a nice piece of Schwinn history to keep. Keep it original and enjoy. Kevin K

   Ahah! posted by Eric Amlie on 6/3/2002 at 12:44:36 PM
This serial number interprets differently than the KK number you posted originally. I believe this number means the frame was the 19th made in October of 1970. This fits the other characteristics that you mentioned. 1970 must have been a transition year for the Super Sports though. I have run across another one which has the more conventional Schwinn serial number even though it still had the forged Huret dropouts. The early Super Sports and '62-'63 Superior used this serial number system which is similar but not exactly the same as the Paramount s/n system.

You can find some information on the 1960-1979 Schwinn lightweights at Bob Hufford's Schwinn Lightweight Data Book site. It is still a work in progress so there are still many dead links there, there is quite a bit of good info there though.

http://www.geocities.com/sldatabook/models.html

   RE:Ahah! posted by freeespirit on 6/3/2002 at 6:53:20 PM
in looking at the serial number that is stamped on the rear left dropout and checking the information on serial #s at this site and Harris cyclery. Up till 1965 the seaial #s were moved to the head tube and the super sports first year of manufacture was 1964. Could this be that early? It has the AVA chicken head stem and really rounded (downturn bars). It also has safety brake levers, which could have been added later. It has the stem stick shifters but the deailers have changed to shimano alvio. Any other areas I could look for date codes on parts etc. The serial # still doesnt make sense K7019. It doesnt have enough decimals and should start with two letters.

   RE: Serial Numbers posted by Eric Amlie on 6/3/2002 at 8:09:47 PM
Yes, the first year for the Super Sport was 1964. It replaced the 15 speed Superior from the previous year. They have the same frame & fork. The 15 speed with 40/47/52 chainset was obsoleted (in Schwinns case) by the switch from half step gearing in '63 to Alpine (step and a half) gearing with 39/50 chainset in '64 (although the 15 speed Sierra with the same gearing survived one more year). All the early Super Sports and Superiors used this "different" serial number system. I have several of these and they all use this different system. The Paramounts used a different system also. I think Schwinn moved the serial numbers from the left rear dropout to the base of the headtube in either '70 or '71. Check out Bob Hufford's site. You will find some info there.

   RE:RE: Serial Numbers posted by Kevin K on 6/4/2002 at 12:02:37 AM
Hi Guys. Quite a puzzle. Check the hubs. Schwinn usually dates all pieces such as this. If no date is visible and you really want to know start with the crankset. Is it the older Sprint style ? v the more common crank. Next, remove the crankset. The forged crank arms were always dated. It will have a month / year that should help narrow it down. And keep with Eric on it. He's a smart guy about the older Schwinn's. Kevin K

   RE:RE:RE: Serial Numbers posted by Freee spirit on 6/4/2002 at 3:06:29 PM
Thanks alot for the information and help. Bob Huffords site is excellent, one of the best I've seen. I wish there were more sites with that much information and that easy to manuver around in. The super sport is a 1967. I also have a varsity in radiant green with downtube shifters, which would make it a 62 (first year of downtube shifters and last of radiant green) but it has 27" wheels rather than 26". I quess these could have been changed sometime.

   RE: '62 Varsity posted by Eric Amlie on 6/4/2002 at 4:04:23 PM
Another interesting bike! I would think that the fork would have had to been changed also when the 27" wheels were put on. I'm also surprised that there is clearance for the rear 27" wheel under the brake bridge. I have a radiant green '62 Varsity frame and fork myself. It is "art" hanging on my garage wall. I never tried building it up so don't really know about the clearance differences between the 26" and 27" wheels. Maybe you have a "transition" bike. There is some evidence that Schwinn made changes during the model years and not just at the beginning of the new model years.

You are right about the year of your Super Sport being 1967. I was going from memory and thinking that the first two numbers signified the year instead of just the first number. The Paramount system uses two numbers for the year.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by: Brian L. on 6/1/2002 at 5:18:33 PM
Beautiful spring morning here in Seattle and I took our my current top contemporary bike. This Bertoni that I built up from an ebay frame dates from the mid-90's and features use of Columbus OS Max tubing with pronunced differential swaging at the joints and nice fillet brazing work. Components are a mongrel and perform well except the brakes where I cheaped out. The frame is superbe in all respects except for Italian BB threading and odd (small) cable stops.

Prior to this my "fast" bike was a straight gauge titanium number with straight blade carbon forks. Decent bike, handled well, but I could never dial out bottom bracket creak between the ti shell and steel BB.

Prior to THAT I had a Klein Quantum when that was the "hot" recreational racer bike in the NW. Although I rode that bike for several seasons, I never loved it and always felt that it was somewhat harsh.

As evidenced by my regular reading and posting on this site, my current fleet are all steel and I have become quite interested in the subtle and not-so-subtle differences in steel frame design, build quality, ride and aesthetics to the exclusion of other materials.

Just this season, while browsing through the latest $20US euro cycling mag, I have noticed that the most trendy and cutting edge frame makers such as Fondriest and Coppi are fielding a fleet of very beautiful carbon frames. Gone are the chunky designs and self-conscious expression of the carbon material. Interestingly enough, all of these frames sport traditional geometry, yet claim weight savings of 200g off their compact-design alloy predescesors. I haven't observed any compacts in the Giro, either (although they all ride smallish frames). One particular model from Fondriest was quite elegant, almost as if Mondonico had fillet brazed one of his mono-stay designs with swoopy stays and no chrome.

Has anyone seen of these bikes in the round or ridden one?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by Brian L. on 6/1/2002 at 5:34:24 PM
The other questions that I wanted ask: 1) Does the return to more traditional frame geometry have anything to do with stylist nod to traditional frames and/or a way to sell something "different" this season? 2) Is all of this carbon a direct acknowledgement of Trek's success?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by Steven on 6/1/2002 at 6:58:39 PM
Carbon has been around long before Trek got involved, so I truly doubt that they have had any effect except for somebody trying to emulate Armstrong. Colnago has had more success with carbon than Trek... Dropping 200 g on your frame is not overly relevant, as virtually the same effect can be had by dropping the same weight off of your body. I believe it is easier for most of us to drop the weight from our own bodies than to drop it off of the frame while still maintaining the same characteristics that make a bike rideable. Moving parts are however quite different. When acceleration and changes in tempo are involved the weight saving can make for considerable improvements. Carbon is also considerably more fragile than 'steel' as the fibres can be broken quite easily. Having visited numerous factories where carbon products are made (tennis racquets, golf shafts, forks, hockey sticks...) I can also assure you that the production is very low-tech and labour intensive. If you check it out, almost all of these products are now produced in China using Western design and technical know-how. The same cannot be said about quality steel bicycle frames. Lastly, the 'return' to the traditional frames is not designed to sell something 'new' but rather a recognition that 'proven' is often better than 'innovative' in times of economic uncertainty. You will see that wholesale changes of bicycle components have slowed somewhat over teh last years, in pace with the worldwide economy.

    frame design posted by John E on 6/1/2002 at 7:14:49 PM
One reason I prefer old road frames is that they have adequate clearance for 700Cx28 tyres, perhaps even mudguards. I already have one fast toy, my Bianchi, which can take 25mm tyres, max.; I want my other road bikes to provide practical transportation.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by desmo on 6/2/2002 at 1:53:33 AM
I always thought that bicycle weight is more critical than body weight and here's why: Granted, on a climb the difference is minimal, but a really light bike has a superior sprung to unsprung weight ratio analagous to the suspension of a car. if you "float" on your bike, which is to say not put full weight on the saddle and let the bike move in response to road irregularities around the pedal spindles, the lighter bike will feel more 'responsive'- all else being more or less equal- And less energy will be expended by the rider damping the bike's motion under the rider. Remember on a bicycle well-ridden, you are the suspension and a good rider is a very sophistcated 'active' suspension in all respects.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by Steven on 6/2/2002 at 2:20:16 AM
I believe this is immaterial for a few reasons. 1) the change of sprung to unsprung mass will always be less than 1% and therefore never sufficient to give a measurable difference. 2) the set-up of the bicycle is meant to take into account the centre of gravity as well as aerodynamics, cardio-vascular efficiency, comfort, etc... so were the 'active suspension' component so important, the set-up could easily fully take this into account 3) if the body mass was counterproductive in the 'floating' phase of riding, it would necessarily then be productive in the 'as one' part of the ride. A far greater influence will be determined by the amount of 'active suspension' offered by the mechanical means (i.e. tire deflection, saddle, handlebar and lever hood compression and shoe and pedal shock absorption) as opposed to physical means (i.e. knees, elbows, back etc...)

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by desmo on 6/2/2002 at 7:51:22 PM
This subject is, frankly, beyond my expertise- but I never let that stop me before so here goes: The mechanical aspects of the bicycle will always constitute passive suspension in the automotive sense- even on a full suspension bike. A bicycle, no matter how sophisticated, cannot know when to unweight one end in anticipation of a bump. A rider can subtly control the bike underneath him to minimise the mass disturbed by the bump. And the energy of the disturbance communicated to the rider will always be proportionate to the mass of the bicycle as the weight of the bike must be overcome to negotiate the bump. I believe it is easily possible to feel the difference between a 10kg racing bike and a 20kg cruiser due to this. I think that floating may involve more than a simple unweighting of the rider on the saddle and may in some degree involve reducing the coupling of the rider's mass and the bicycle's. A smaller area of the rider's weight is in physical contact with the saddle allowing the saddle/rider interface to function to some degree as a pivot. When the front wheel encounters a bump the bicycle rotates upward about a fulcrum at the rear tire's contact patch. The weight borne by the pedal spindles will not resist this rotation nearly as much as the portion of the rider's weight borne by the saddle as the pedal bearings in some degree allow the bicycle to move with less resistance. I can whilst riding it seems to me unweight the handlebars in anticipation of a bump and then lean forward as the bump passes between the front and rear wheels thus unweighting the rear wheel as it encounters the same bump. Sort of like hopping up a curb, but smaller in degree. This is true active suspension and a lightweight bike seems to facilitate it for me personally. Of course this is one man's purely subjective opinion and I cannot bring any real scholorship to bear on the issue. Perhaps there is someone here with a better grounding in the physics that could elucidate my subjective impressions better.

I'm still waiting for someone to describe a 20kg clunker as "disappearing benath them."


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by desmo on 6/2/2002 at 7:51:30 PM
This subject is, frankly, beyond my expertise- but I never let that stop me before so here goes: The mechanical aspects of the bicycle will always constitute passive suspension in the automotive sense- even on a full suspension bike. A bicycle, no matter how sophisticated, cannot know when to unweight one end in anticipation of a bump. A rider can subtly control the bike underneath him to minimise the mass disturbed by the bump. And the energy of the disturbance communicated to the rider will always be proportionate to the mass of the bicycle as the weight of the bike must be overcome to negotiate the bump. I believe it is easily possible to feel the difference between a 10kg racing bike and a 20kg cruiser due to this. I think that floating may involve more than a simple unweighting of the rider on the saddle and may in some degree involve reducing the coupling of the rider's mass and the bicycle's. A smaller area of the rider's weight is in physical contact with the saddle allowing the saddle/rider interface to function to some degree as a pivot. When the front wheel encounters a bump the bicycle rotates upward about a fulcrum at the rear tire's contact patch. The weight borne by the pedal spindles will not resist this rotation nearly as much as the portion of the rider's weight borne by the saddle as the pedal bearings in some degree allow the bicycle to move with less resistance. I can whilst riding it seems to me unweight the handlebars in anticipation of a bump and then lean forward as the bump passes between the front and rear wheels thus unweighting the rear wheel as it encounters the same bump. Sort of like hopping up a curb, but smaller in degree. This is true active suspension and a lightweight bike seems to facilitate it for me personally. Of course this is one man's purely subjective opinion and I cannot bring any real scholorship to bear on the issue. Perhaps there is someone here with a better grounding in the physics that could elucidate my subjective impressions better.

I'm still waiting for someone to describe a 20kg clunker as "disappearing beneath them."


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by Keith on 6/3/2002 at 1:51:40 PM
The missing element in this discussion is the particular purpose for the bike. If you're a CAT 1/2 racer riding crits you need a different bike than a recreational rider who's doing 7-8 hour centuries, which would in turn differ from the best bike for loaded touring. And there are classes in-between such as those of us who no longer race but ride cometitively with friends (aka "washed up racers"). I'm persuaded by the bike weight expressed as part of the total rider-bike package. That is, a 17 pound bike doesn't have a huge advantage over a 20 pounder. Okay, when trying to get a few seconds over the next guy while racing in the Alps, yes. A 40-pound clunker feels slow for other reasons, such as larger, lower pressure tires. For example, my comuter ti bike feels lively even when loaded with an extra 20 pounds of stuff. I've owned and ridden many steel frames, aluminum, carbon, and titanium. I believe design has more to do with ride quality than material -- look at Sheldon Brown's article on frame materials as a good explanation for why. I think the current sloping top tube, or "compact" frame design thta evolved in large part from Mike Burrow's work for Giant, is a geniune advance in design. Very simply, when the seatpost is sticking out about a foot, it flexes slightly, and absorbs some road shock, making the frame more comfortable, all else being equal. I have two compact frames, and they are more comfortable over the same course than even long-wheelbase steel bikes I have. The compact design also makes the seat stays shorter, and a bit stiffer, and the entire frame a bit lighter, again all else being equal.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by Keith on 6/3/2002 at 2:53:32 PM
P.S. I believe ethe new De Roda King carbon is compact. I can't recall what Pantani is riding this year, but I believe it's compact carbon. Litespeed also added two compact models to its line in '02. I avoid carbon now because it is cannot withstand abrasion -- a good scrape against a chairing, or whatever, and you may be down to the fibers -- that seriously weakens the frame, and if moisture can then get to the fibers it's all over. It's a question of long-term durability -- similar issues arise in selecting individual components -- super light alu and carbon handlebars, stems, ti axle pedels (nothing new there), low-spoke count wheels with alu spokes, etc.

   De Rosa & Bianchi posted by Steven on 6/4/2002 at 5:27:45 AM
The De Rosa King and Vega are both compact designs, as is the Bianchi that Pantani was riding on. In Italy they are known as 'Slooping' frames (a misnomer for sloping toptube). Ugo and sons are still not overly convinced about their merits but are accepting them as viable. Ugo makes all of the Titanium frames personally and this is where he suggests enthusiasts go. As he so correctly points out: don't follow the example of the pros, they all receive their bikes for free and don't worry about long-term durability. He claims to have sold many titanium frames to retired pros.

Your comments about carbon fibres fragility are correct, however new technology is allowing the manufacturers to insert external protection in commonly stressed locations to resist scrape damage. You can now scrape a carbon tennis racquet across the court on ground strokes without any major risk of breakage. This was unthinkable even a few years back.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Your thoughts on frame design, please posted by Keith on 6/5/2002 at 3:53:17 PM
Believe it or not the photo I saw a couple of weeks ago showed il Pirata in a race earlier this year on a compact carbon Wilier -- but I don't know whether Mercatone Uno switched from Bianchi's this year. I guess Bianchi is now up to EV3? It's also a semi-compact.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Team Miyata Bike: Top of the Line? posted by: B. Merritt on 6/1/2002 at 1:03:49 PM
Is the Team Miyata (steel) bike, circa 1992, the top of the line of road racers from Miyata? As opposed to the 700s, 800s, 900s? Also, how would it compare to a Centurion Elite that's appx. 20 years old? Any info & opinions appreciated.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Team Miyata Bike: Top of the Line? posted by Steven on 6/1/2002 at 4:49:36 PM
Miyata was the first non-European bicycle builder to be successful among the professional ranks back in the late 70's - early 80's with the Koga Miyata team. They remain to this day a very successful high-end race bike in many markets. In the Netherlands, they are perhaps the best selling of all major brands. The quality of the frames was considerably better than anything else coming out of Japan at the time (with the possible exception of a few specialty builders like 3 Rensho...) The Centurion is a truck by comparison. The Team Miyata here in North America came originally with Dura Ace, while in Europe they usually were equiped with a mix of Japanese and European componentry and were marketed with the KOGA Miyata name. As they drew their own tubes, they used some quite interesting features such as triple butting (3 different wall thicknesses selected according to supposed need) and helix butting. I still have an early 80's frame that I still consider to be the epitome of the 'all-purpose' race frame. It works reasonably well for everything without excelling in any area. Other frames are stiffer, more comfortable, descend better, handle better... The Miyata is average in everything, without showing any weaknesses. Like Japanese cars, it has little 'soul' but no faults. My De Rosa's are much better riding bikes but I still find myself riding the Miyata more often. Definitely worthwhile and ideal for the beginner racer. A couple months ago there was a thread about $2500 bikes and their relative value, well, to tell the difference between a team Miyata at the equivalent of $2500 and a De Rosa at $4500 is almost imperceptable to probably 98% of all riders.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Miyata 210 posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 6/1/2002 at 6:29:33 PM
I had a 210 in brown and found another one in mint shape for $20.00
Upright Raleigh Sports bars, a Pletcher rack, Brooks B- 66 and off I go. Happy with it.
Whatever Chromolly means, it's ok.
The 210 was bottom or near bottom of the range of bikes Miyata offered.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Miyata 210 posted by Steven on 6/2/2002 at 2:22:21 AM
There was also a 110 below the 210. The 110 was the entry level bike in the early 80's. It had alloy rims and bolt-on rear wheel and Q/R front.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Team Miyata Bike: Top of the Line? posted by Keith on 6/3/2002 at 2:00:33 PM
My wife has a late 70s Miyata Pro, and the workmanship on it is better than most European bikes of that era -- certainly better than the top models of the big names.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Team Miyata Bike: Top of the Line? posted by Steven on 6/3/2002 at 2:38:16 PM
Miyata, at the time, was likely the most advanced company in the world when it came to the use of robots. The robotic brazing temperature was indeed so tightly controlled that it was almost unheard of that Miyata need use a file to clear up excess brazing material on their top bikes like the pro and team. To clean up excess flux which was unavoidable, they used a steel brush






AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Voyageur 11.8? posted by: Jeff on 5/31/2002 at 9:31:10 PM
Can someone please help me identify the year and type of bike I just received, that has been hanging in a garage for years. Its a Schwinn and the very faded and chipped decal on the top bar says Voyageur 11.8 I believe. The whole bike is black in color except for the forks which are black and then silver halfway down, same with the chainstays. There's a black sticker at the bottom of the seattube that says "Schwinn X-tra Lite Bicycles" The serial number is P020297. I checked this with the Schwinn serial number database but I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, is it from 1956? Anyway, I'm thinking of restoring it. It has a badly dented top tube that may be able to be repaired or replaced by CyleArt. So can anyone give me an idea if this bike is worth a restoration. It appears to be 100% intact and seems like a really nice light weight bike. Any info on this bike would sure help. Thanks all!


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Voyageur 11.8? posted by Kevin K on 5/31/2002 at 10:55:50 PM
Hi. Your Schwinn is a 70's bike. It was a nice offering by Schwinn however the restoration you are talking ( new top tube and repaint ) would cost far more than it will ever be worth. If you really like the bike email me at kbcurvin@aol.com. I know where there is an NOS one of those for $150.( Asking $175 but I think they'll take the $150 ) Far less than you'll have in your frame repairs and you'll have your bike for parts. Kevin

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Voyageur 11.8? posted by Jeff on 6/1/2002 at 3:59:12 AM
Thanks for the response Kevin. I just sent you an email about the bike.