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Archived: Vintage Lightweights







VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by: Edward in Vancouver on 11/13/2003 at 1:18:48 AM
Now bear with me, I'm just trying to educate myself on the finer aspects of vintage lightweights, and I've got a million questions about a frame I saw on e-bay. The frame in question is a circa 48-50 Claud Butler, offered by a very reputable seller in England.
In his description he states that it is "Bilaminate" construction, which means..? Cool looking rear dropouts, but what's up with the weird...uh,unconventional derailleur hanger? Can't make sense out of that one.

In a consignment store here I chanced upon a really nice Raleigh, very early 70's. Headbadge wasn't the usual Raleigh Heron, looked to be Chrome, and didn't say Nottingham. Would a Carlton be differently badged? Cottered cranks, first thought it was a 5 spd, 'cause the rings looked to be 49 and 52, had Campy F & R derailleurs, Hinidium (spelling?) stem, and really nice c/p brakes w/ adjusting barrels built into the levers, 27" wheels with a front "Racelite" hub. Is there such as thing as a Brooks 15? or did I read it wrong?
What really blew me away was, it's a lightweight racer, right? Well, there's this huge big honking wart on the right fork. Why'd anybody go and do that at the factory for? Yeah, I know, it's for a light, but, but, gawd it's butt-ugly. The wart I mean. If the bike's still there this weekend I'll take a closer look.

Answers?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by Don on 11/13/2003 at 2:19:50 AM
Yes, there is a Brooks B15, One of my Winter commuter bikes has one & also a co-worker rides one on a touring bike. They are nearly indistinguishable from the B17. Both saddles were acquired in good used condition so their age & origin is unknown. Don

    help educate me.. posted by John E on 11/13/2003 at 2:21:17 AM
Raleigh: The 49-52 chainring combination is typical "half-step" gearing, which was popular into the mid 1960s, when it was replaced by 1.5-step/Alpine gearing, e.g. 42-52. 49-52 was typically used with a 14-22, 14-23, or 14-24 5-speed freewheel. Nishiki briefly revivied half-step gearing in the early 1970s, with 48-54/14-34 and similar combinations.

That "fork wart" is a headlamp mount for those who ride on the left side of the road.

The Brooks 15 is a good all-round saddle.

With the centerpull brakes, I am guessing mid-1960s. You may be able to find a date code on the Campag. rear derailleur.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: help educate me.. posted by Warren on 11/13/2003 at 3:27:53 AM
Hi Edward...I've heard the bi-laminate construction discussion but my tiny brain can't remember details but it was found during that period. I think that was Peter Paine selling that Butler? Did you see the one for sale by Hilary Stone last week?
Do an ebay seller search for hilarystone and look at the Ephgrave frame he has for sale. And the rest of his stuff. He is the premier seller of all good bike parts in my books.

B15 and B17's also came in a "swallow" model...very skinny race saddles that truly define comfort...at least they work for my butt. I have 2 of them.

My 59 Raleigh Sports Superbe has the fork mount...I'm surprised your early Raleighs don't. You have a '54 or something like that?

BH Racelite's are great english hubs...I hope you bought that bike.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by T-Mar on 11/13/2003 at 2:52:46 PM
The Claud Butler goes back well before my time, but the president of our cycling club back in the early 1970's had a similar one. I'm going strictly with my memory and his word of mouth in these instances, so take these explanations with a grain of salt.

The tang on the dropout is not a derailleur hanger. You'll notice that the left dropout is identical. The tangs were an aid to facilitate rear wheel insertion and removal.

Bilaminate construction is where a section of tube is placed over another and brazed to the inner tube. If you look at the pictures, you'll notice that the lugs on the top tube and front end of the down tube are not lugs at all! There is no corresponding lug collar on the seat or head tubes. Also, the top and down tube collars are much longer than a normal lug. What we have is section of tube (or formed flat plate) brazed onto the top and down tubes and then fillet brazed to the seat and head tubes.

Rather than just beginning a method to join tubes, it allows the building to incorporate extra strength, where needed. Think external butting. This would allow the builder to use very thin tubes and customize the length and thickness of the butt for unique applications. It also allows the builder to fabricate geometries outside the angle restrictions of lugs and still provide some of the aesthetical appeal of ornate lugs.

Reportedly, there was a scarcity of butted bicycle tubing in England during the Second World War as Reynolds and other manufacturers switched to wartime production for aircraft and other uses. Without the avialability of butted bicycle tubes, bilaminate constuction allowed the builder to fabricate a frame with similar properties using plain gauge tubing.

Again, the above is strictly word of mouth, from someone over thirty years ago. Whether it is true or not, I cannot say, but the explanations seemed logical to me, so I pass them on. You can draw your own conclusions.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by Chuck Schmidt on 11/14/2003 at 5:10:13 PM
Tom wrote: "To crack the British market, Simplex licensed their design to Cyclo, who introduced the Benelux in 1949, the same year that Camapagnolo introduced the parallelogram derailleur. However, it took a few too establish themselves in the Britsh market. Campagnolo's new design didn't really take off until Koblet won the 1951 Tour de France on a Gran Sport derailleur."

Actually the Campagnolo Gran Sport derailleur wasn't made until 1951; only offered for sale in the latter half of that year.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/14/2003 at 5:21:47 PM
Very interesting!

No arguement there. Indeed Reynolds were aligned, I think, with Tube Investments during this time frame, the arch rival of Raleigh as TI owned the huge British Cycle Corporation makers of Hercules, Phillips, Sun et. al. Oddly it was precisely when TI bought out Raleigh c. 1962 that an odd thing happened: Raleigh stopped making frames with Reynolds 531. Their first new generation of derailleur bikes like the Gran Prix and Blue Streak were all fitted with wonderful components, Campy derailleurs etc., but they were made with 2030 steel frames not 531. Anything truly lightweight was being made by Carlton and there was an odd and not insignificant period when the Raleigh name wasn't found on anything truly "lightweight".

As for choice of derailleurs vs. S/A hubs, my point was not what other manufacturers offered between the two, merely that Raleigh offered no choice c. 1947-57. Oddly you could get Raleighs before the war with Cyclo-Benelux gears as an option but not immediately after. Rudge, before the Raleigh takeover, offered Cyclo-Benelux gears almost exclusively. Hercules/BSA's own wonderful hub (considered superior to the SA ones) only came in a standard wide-ratio model I believe and all of their club and racing machines were derailleur not hub fitted.

Several British riders of the period told me that in the late 1940s and early 1950s many considered "real" racing bikes to not have gears at all but the classic fixed/free single gear arrangement. Don't know if that was really the case, but until the mid 1950s most models came as single gear as stock with gears as added options.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by Edward in Vancouver on 11/13/2003 at 3:08:01 PM
Thanks for all the info, gentlemen. In regards to Peter's C. Butler, the tangs are to aid in the quick change of the r. wheel? So then orginally the Butler would have come with an internal hub or was it standard then for all r. derailleurs to come with the adapter claw?

In regards to the Raleigh, I'll look again this weekend, but I'll hum and hem about buying it. For one thing It's a bit too big for me, I usually take a 52 cm frame, and this one looks like 58, and for another thing (this is taken from a recent real-life experience) "If you buy another old junky bike, and leave it in the garge all winter, you'd better bring your sleeping bag in there as well"...

Warren, My '54 Superbe doesn't have the wart, it has the Heron bracket and light, and inside the fork there's a small pimple, but not a huge threaded braze-on.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by T-Mar on 11/13/2003 at 5:46:57 PM
While derailleurs were around at this time, the British tended to favour their beloved Sturmey-Archer units, so it was probably internally geared. Raleigh didn't even market derailleur equipped bikes until the late 1950's. There were some very unique derailleur designs, but most used the "adapter claw" to attach to the rear dropout. I believe the first commonly available dropout with an integral derailleur hanger was Campagnolo in 1951. I would have thought Simplex given their extensive derailleur involvement, but I haven't seen any records of them this early or earlier. Anyone else?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/13/2003 at 10:15:39 PM
I don't know if Sturmey Archer hubs were so much a "British thing" in the '50s counter to derailleurs like Cyclo-Benelux or early Simplex/Campy but a "Raleigh thing".

Remember Raleigh owned S/A and it wasn't until 1958 that they offered their first machine with a derailleur gear as stock fit. This was Lenton Grand Prix. So many of the other British club and racing bikes like Hetchins, Claud Butlers etc. you see offered on eBay etc. have Cyclo-Benelux derailleurs, not S/A hubs. But not the Raleighs, Rudges and Humbers. Sturmey-Archer ceased production of their FM, AM, FC, AC and ASC club and racing hubs in 1963, a year after production of the Lentons ended as well. It was the end of an era.

Rather or not derailleurs of that or any era are superior to hub gears is up for debate. I'll take on all comers with my '51 Raleigh Clubman with her FC close-ratio four-speed hub. and a 16-tooth sprocket. She eats Bianchi's for breakfast and Litespeeds for tea.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   help educate me.. posted by T-Mar on 11/14/2003 at 2:23:31 PM
I agree that a lot of other manufacturer's used the Campagnolo and Simplex/Benelux derailleurs over the Sturmey-Archer derailleurs, but not at the time period stated (i.e. 1948-1950). The emergence of these derailleurs as a signicant force in the Britsh market was a few years later.


The Second World War had ended less that five years before. The British were still very nationalistic with their industries protected by heavy tariffs. To crack the British market, Simplex licensed their design to Cyclo, who introduced the Benelux in 1949, the same year that Camapagnolo introduced the parallelogram derailleur. However, it took a few too establish themselves in the Britsh market. Campagnolo's new design didn't really take off until Koblet won the 1951 Tour de France on a Gran Sport derailleur. Campagnolo's seat stay, rod shifters sold primarily to Italian manufacturers.

To say that Sturmey-Archer was a "Raleigh thing" is akin to saying that Reynolds tubing was a "Raleigh thing". There were corporate ties in both instances. It is understandable that Raleigh preferred using these products exclusively, but to imply that other British framebuilders favoured non-Raleigh related products because of the corporate ties is untrue. Why was Reynolds the dominant tubeset in all British frames? Simply because it was the best quality, readily available (read British) and cost effective (no tariff) product. I believe the same is true of the Sturmey-Archer product for 1948-1950. Only later in the 1950's after the Benelux and Gran Sport designs proved themselves, did they start making significant inroads into the British marketplace.







FOR SALE:ÊÊÊGarlatti posted by: Niels on 11/13/2003 at 12:34:23 AM
Hi everyone. I have a 60's Garlatti frame and some parts in good condition for sale. Frame: Some decals starting to come off, someone scratched a serial number into the underside of the downtube. Otherwise good. It is a larger frame, over 20 in.

Parts: Shifters/dehrailluers, seat, pedals gone. Everything else there (Universal brakes). Lower end stuff for the time, I guess. 3ttt stem and bars.

Photos availible, take what ever parts (or frame) you want, best offer.
I'm in Ontario


   RE:FOR SALE:ÊÊÊGarlatti posted by David S. Rogers on 6/24/2004 at 4:04:17 PM
Is the Garlatti frame still for sale and say what color is the frame.

Cheers

David Rogers






FOR SALE:ÊÊÊGarlatti posted by: Niels on 11/13/2003 at 12:34:23 AM
Hi everyone. I have a 60's Garlatti frame and some parts in good condition for sale. Frame: Some decals starting to come off, someone scratched a serial number into the underside of the downtube. Otherwise good. It is a larger frame, over 20 in.

Parts: Shifters/dehrailluers, seat, pedals gone. Everything else there (Universal brakes). Lower end stuff for the time, I guess. 3ttt stem and bars.

Photos availible, take what ever parts (or frame) you want, best offer.







AGE / VALUE:   Olmo Identification posted by: TimW on 11/12/2003 at 7:06:21 AM
Not much to go with on this, other than component mix. The bike is a 'Made in Italy' Olmo, blue with bright yellow 'Olmo' on the downtube sides, and front and back of the seat tube. No indication of model or tubing (some residue may remain where the tubing decal was). It has chrome only on the fork crown, and drop outs by Gipiemme (?).

It has Campy NR derailleurs, Modolo Speedy brakes, Miche cranks and headset, and KKT PROV VIC II pedals (whatever that is). I got it from a guy who had put mountain bars and levers on it, so some evidence is missing. The stem is Mavic (correct?), and the seatpost is Japanese (incorrect).

The wheels on it I have lost within my stack of wheels. I could probably could dig and figure out which ones where the right ones, if it came with its original wheels. I don't remember. The serial number seems to be simply (and badly stamped): 7747.

So, any takers on what is is? Are all Olmos made of good tubing? It doesn't strike me as brilliantly made (frame construction doesn't compare with the work on my comparably equipped Raleighs). I am trying to identify a good frame to build up as a fun daily rider, and am trying to assess this one. Any ideas or lead appreciated.


   RE:AGE / VALUE: Olmo Identification posted by Warren on 11/12/2003 at 12:29:27 PM
Olmo made a full range of bikes...pro level to cookie cutter boom-bikes. I've seen some nice blue/yellow ones. How big is the seatpost? 27.2 suggests double-butted Columbus...27.0 could be Tange Champion...

The Gipiemme dropouts and good components rule out a bottom feeder. It's likely a good bike.

    Olmo Identification posted by John E on 11/12/2003 at 7:22:56 PM
Based on what I have seen from Bianchi and Peugeot, I speculate that you have a mixed-tubing frameset, such as Columbus TreTubi. The Campag. NR drivetrain, Modolo brakes, and Miche (I had Ofmega) crankset match those of my 1981 Bianchi Campione d'Italia. Although you do not have Olmo's top-of-the-line model, you probably have a very competent road machine. If it fits you, it's a keeper!

   RE: Olmo Identification posted by TimW on 11/13/2003 at 6:43:33 AM
Some useful information above, based on the minimal information I could provide. I am working on getting the seatpost out, it's not stuck, but needs some convincing that I haven't gotten around to yet. It had occurred to me that the seatpost diameter might help identify the bike, but now I know more. Thanks.

The 'Tri-Tubi' thing sounds right. I suspect it's a good bike, but not a jaw-dropper. Good candidate for some kind of conversion. But what? I've already built just about every kind of bike I need, and I'm waiting for some sensationally light frame to come along to build up with the Zipp wheels I have waiting. Not this frame though.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Double-rail Seatpost posted by: jack on 11/12/2003 at 2:44:27 AM
Some of my favorite bikes have been conversions from quality touring "ten-speeds" to upright, single or multi-speed city bikes. Part of the conversion involves swapping the "racing" saddle for typically a B-72 and here's where my question comes up.

Anyone know of micro-adjust seatposts available for double-rail saddles or are Al stepped seatposts still available in diameters for use with Brooks seat-clamp?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Double-rail Seatpost posted by David on 11/12/2003 at 12:12:54 PM
You can use a "seat sandwich," which holds all four wires so you can use a micro-adjust seatpost, or get a plain aluminum seatpost. Seat sandwich is available from Harris Cyclery, among others, and www.bikepartsusa.com has a wide variety of plain aluminum seatposts. (Harris probably does, too.)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Double-rail Seatpost posted by Warren on 11/14/2003 at 11:25:08 PM
Micro adjusting posts don't accomodate double rail saddles in my experience. They aren't really necessary due to the forgiving nature of sprung saddles. I have found that some of the vintage traditional doublerail seatclamps are better machined and have more indents or graduations than the newer ones. I have an old black steel one like this. The seat sandwich sounds interesting if you can find a micro-adjuster to fit a roadster...






AGE / VALUE:   Another Peugeot posted by: Derek Coghill on 11/11/2003 at 11:14:07 PM
This is my everyday road bike; I tried to find it on the Dutch catalogue website but I think it's in one of the missing years. Here goes; all-welded frame, turquoise metallic with orange transfer on downtube, fade-away checks and "record du monde" on seat tube ,square silver head badge (sticker), steel rims, Simplex shifters (5spd rear, push/pull rather than parallelogram front), Atax stem, alloy Weinemann side-pulls, cottered crank. I know it's 70's sometime by the (local) dealer sticker, but no more than that. It cost £2 from a jumble sale.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another Peugeot posted by T-Mar on 11/12/2003 at 3:47:48 AM
The "welded" frame and graphics you describe indicate an early 1980s frame, definitely not 1970's. However, the component mix, particularly the push rod front derailleur and cottered cranksets would seem to indicate something earlier. Based on the component mix it appears to be an entry level model, probably a U08 or U09. One possible explanation would be a late 1970s UO8 that had a warranty frame replacement with an early 1980s U09 frame. However, my observations are based on the North American models that I am familiar with. The English models may be slightly different. Anybody else?



   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another Peugeot posted by tim on 11/12/2003 at 7:20:25 AM
What is the URL for the Dutch catalogue website you refer to? Sounds interesting.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another Peugeot posted by Derek Coghill on 11/12/2003 at 10:14:32 AM
Someone on here gave me it when I was asking about the "Triathlon" frame that I picked up.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/peugeotshow/

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another Peugeot posted by Rob on 11/12/2003 at 10:07:29 PM
Thanks Derek...an interesting web site...I see the UO-8 is in there, even came with 27x1 1/4 inch wheels in the Dutch market and I also noticed another model also seem to refer to the UO-18. Lots of useful info. and it should be possible to relate these models to the ones that came to the US and Canada...almost all I see on a regular basis are the UO-8, UE-8, and the UE-18...I have a UO-14,mid 80s apparently, but it was made at the Peugeot plant in Quebec...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another Peugeot posted by Rob on 11/12/2003 at 11:19:36 PM
Oh..and, of course, there is also the AO-8...






AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Torbay posted by: Marc Romera on 11/11/2003 at 1:01:00 PM
I purchased this model at Portobello Market in London and I would like to know what years were them made because no one neither at the shop nor at the manufacturer seems to know it. Here are some details:

Frame: Columbus tubi speciali trafilati ® ACCIAO CrMo GARA TRE TUBI. 24 inches / 60 cms. from top of frame to center of crank.

Gears: Torpedo Sachs. 3.

Wheels: Van Schothorst – Stainless 18/10. Tires Victory Standard 37 622 (28 x 15/8 x 13/8 – 29 x 13/8 x 15/8).

Lights: Front and back. Dynamo Electra Sourbitez.

Saddle: Brooks CR3.

It has got back reflector, carrier, chain guard, mud guards and back-wheel lock AXA, as well, and its gear and brakes are dutch style.


     Dawes Torbay posted by John E on 11/11/2003 at 3:44:16 PM
Columbus TreTubi (3 tubes) is a mixed-tube frameset, with a genuine seamless Columbus double-butted CrMo main triangle (where it really counts), but with lesser material, such as seamed CrMo (Bianchi version) or seamless carbon steel, for the forks and stays.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Torbay posted by T-Mar on 11/11/2003 at 6:35:54 PM
From what I've read, Columbus Gara is a plain gauge tubeset. Though it is not a current tubeset, I believe it is relatively modern and was introduced within the last dozen years.

   Dawes Torbay posted by John E on 11/11/2003 at 7:59:19 PM
I think T-Mar is correct. Butted tubing would presumably be labeled "rinforzati." In this context, the "tre tubi" designation hints strongly that the forks and stays are plain carbon steel.






AGE / VALUE:   bike safety posted by: John B on 11/11/2003 at 1:03:00 AM
A final thought on assinine radio bike comments....those folks stir controvery...I live in country..drive truck..ride old ten speed. Just like driving, we got to ride defensivly...Don't sweat them questioning our testosterone (or estrogen,) those wide-bottomed jokers couldn't pump the pedals up the smallest hill..Peace
John







AGE / VALUE:    Anyone familar with Motobecane Models? posted by: Larry T. on 11/10/2003 at 12:45:59 AM
Hi,

I purchased a lightweight Motobecane at a garage sale. The bike had been spray painted blue. It appears to be maybe from the 80's. It has Suntour ARX derailleurs, Nervar cranks, Mallard pedals and hubs and Motobecane sidepull brakes. The rear brake cable enters the top tube in the front and comes out at the back of the top tube. Wheels are Wolber 700's. The bike was originally cream colored. In sanding off the blue paint, I found that the seat tube has 21 of the block letter M going down the tube on each side. The top letters are shaded with small dots that fade away as they go dowm the tube. The normal word Motobecane is on the front diagonal tube. I could find no model name, and the head badge is gone. Anyone have an idea as to the model, or when they were using this paint/decal scheme?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:    Anyone familar with Motobecane Models? posted by JONathan on 11/10/2003 at 2:57:14 AM
I'll take a swipe at this one. I have several models from the '70's and early '80's.
The "Nobly" is my earliest model with the Nevar cottered cranks and sidepull Weinmanns.
Rigida steel rim wheels; rubber block pedals; Simplex front and rear. I guess it is early bike boom ('70's). Quite heavy, even by my standards, which have a Peugeot UO-8 as a "light" bike...it's all relative, is it not?
The "Nobly" is very comfortable for casual rides and I can't change anything for fear it won't be ridden! Yes, even those rubber pedals have to stay. The bronze (coffee) color paint with beautiful trim paint job are what keeps it out of the shed.
The next up the rungs is my "Super Mirage" which has 4030 "high resiliency" steel tubing. SunTour shifters and trannies; Weinmann "Vainqueur" 999 cp brakes; fair quality alloy 27's which have reinforced spoke eyes for durability; Sugino cranks and chainrings make it a very good bike...for %5!
Next up is the "Gran Sport" of which there is a mixte with Vitus 186 tubing and a regular frame with the 4030 stuff. These two are very decent bikes for any regular riding. I know there was a "Nomade" just above the "Nobly". A "Mirage" was above the "Nomade" and, of course, the "Super Mirage" was in thgere above that.
The higher level Motos kick in above the "Gran Sport" as very fine bikes. I am not familiar with them. Judging from what you have stated about componentry, the model you have may be a "Super Mirage" or a "Mirage". Just a guess. The only differences I have seen are in the grade of components. Those Wolber wheels are very good.
I have them on a Raleigh DLT-3 "sports" and they are strong wheels for touring.
This makes me think that you may have a Gran Sport, since the Wolbers are robust alloys that fit design elements of touring. The Moto paint jobs are super, IMHO. Tough paint, too.
I ride the Gran Sport all the time, after cold-bending the forks back into alignment. The "Nomades" that I see in (NOT lately) in the thrifts are really beat, which indicates to me that they are ridden hard for a long time...that is a plus, if you can find one that's been parked for a few decades, it will likely provide excellent service as a commuter or recreation bike, or maybe a touring bike. They are rugged.
I am always scoping out for Moto's that look halfway together. Our winters in the S.F. Bay area allow for a longlived commuter-bike if even a slight attendance to lubrication and cleaning is part of the plan. The Moto's and UO's are perfect choices, IMHO.
JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    Anyone familar with Motobecane Models? posted by JONathan on 11/10/2003 at 3:16:03 AM
Larry, there may be a latent image of the model scripted on the top-tube on either side. Take a close look on each side. I use a flashlight to get a bright reflection and varying the light angle over a wide range may pick up the underlying decal "ghost".
Good luck.
JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    Anyone familar with Motobecane Models? posted by andym on 11/10/2003 at 12:29:42 PM
The name "jubilee" comes to mind.Its a possibility anyway.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    Anyone familar with Motobecane Models? posted by T-Mar on 11/10/2003 at 2:24:21 PM
Definitely an 80's model, probably around 1983-1984. My 1979 catalog pics show different graphics and all the models have rear brake cables that run through eyelets on the top tube.

Starting in 1983, magazine ads show them with rear brake cables that enter and exit on the underside of the top tube, but the graphics don't match. These are early 1983 ads, so they could still be picturing 1982 models. Mid/late ads do not show pictures of bikes or give specs.

Starting in 1984, ads show pictures of bicycles with graphics that MAY match your description (the pics are kind of small). The decal which May be the "21 M's" you describe, starts about halfway down the seat tube and looks like it is placed halfway between the side and back of the tube. Model name appears on the rear section of the top tube. The downtube logo uses relatively small font and appears to be only about 4" long.

1985 ads show yet a different set of graphics and again the pictures are very small. There COULD still be "21 M's" on the seat tube, but this time they are more centalized along the tube and definitely on the side. Model name still appears on the back side of the tube. The downtube logo is much larger, about 6" long. The ads are appearing under the MBK trademark though the bicycles still display Motobecane on the down tube. The ads stopped around mid 1985, with no ads in 1986, so I stopped there.

For the above described 1983-1985 period, I have descriptions for 8 different models and none match your component mix! However, based on the components it is proabably one of the Mirage or Jubilee models. You may also want to check to see if the frame is lugless. This technology was listed as being used on the Mirage Sport model during this time period. Having, said all this, there is another way to establish the year, assuming that the Suntour derailleurs are original. There should be date date code info stamped somewhere on the back side, in the form of two letters. Refer to the Vintage-Trek website for locations and decryption.

Some readers may have noted an apparent discrepancy with an earlier post of mine that stated Motobecane became MBK in 1983. This would seem to contradict the the ads which show MBK appearing in 1985. It is possible that the name was changed in late 1983, but that legal proceedings dragged things out to late 1984 and the delays associated with getting an ad approved and printed in a magazine could have taken things out into 1985. Or my source that quoted 1983, could have simply been incorrect! Take your pick.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    Anyone familar with Motobecane Models? posted by Gralyn on 11/10/2003 at 5:58:05 PM
I have a couple Motobecanes, no, actually 3. The oldest one, a Nomade, I guess is from early 70s. Then, a Mirage, I'm guessing maybe mid-70's. And a Nomade Sprint, I'm guessing later 70's. The question that comes to mind for me: Is there any method of determining the date of manufacture of these bikes...like from the serial #, etc.?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    Anyone familar with Motobecane Models? posted by Don on 11/10/2003 at 8:07:19 PM
I have or had several Motos, a mid 70s Nomade I gave away, didn't have the 21Motobecane on the seat tube; a Grand Tour, similar to a 1984 catalog illustration, dark blue metal flake paint scheme which has the repeating logo on the seat tube, Vitus 888 straight gauge tubing, SunTour VGT Derailleurs, Weinmann brakes, Stronglight crankset; a candy red Grand Jubile' with standard motobecane decal on seat tube, Huret Jubile' Derailleurs, Weinmann brakes, early Shimano 600 brake levers & crankset, hand painted (in gold) model name & pin striping on the top tube, Nervex lugs outlined with gold, Vitus "super lightweight" double butted tubing, Campagnolo Victory sewup rims, normandy hubs. I also have a 1985 Nashbar "Sport RX" with the ARX Derailleur set so 1984 or 1985 seems like a good date but doubtful it is a Grand Jubile', it might be a Jubile' Sport which was the next model down & had SunTour components. Great find @ a good price, Don






MISC:    [fall riding] posted by: luke on 11/10/2003 at 12:13:54 AM
Hey,
I took my 1974 schwinn world sport out on a early morning jaunt,and she ran like a dream.she is the schwinn fall coler of mettalic brown,gold.
A little shimano spray on the gears and chain.
I had alot of look,s as i passed them by on my soon to be 20 year old classic.
Forget the s.u.v.,
Dig me,
luke


   RE:MISC:    [fall riding] posted by john on 11/11/2003 at 11:18:34 PM
Hey luke I had my World Sport out last week (Before the temps dropped into 30's with rain and wind)to enjoy the fall. No high tech here, just cro-mo fun. I put about 800 miles on it since last year after picking it up from the trash (probably thrown out when they bought a more modern Chinamart bike). This summer I swiched the quick release front axel for a solid one, mounted a newsboy wire basket, and since then my dog has ridden 300 miles with me. Only problem I've encountered is I can't find a helmet that fits him! john

   RE:RE:MISC:    [fall riding] posted by luke on 11/12/2003 at 11:48:03 PM
Thanks.Thats wonderfull!!!!!!!!!!
luke






MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by: JONathan on 11/9/2003 at 1:55:32 AM
What a great place for vintage lightweights! I spent some time in Toronto this past week, before heading to the north country. I saw some cool vintage lw's around UT. A lot of commuters! I wanted to check out the thrift stores, too. Maybe next time. Just wanted to say to the folks from Canada that I know now, first hand, what you are saying. I just had no clue there were so many up there.
Do you commute in the winter? We got a taste of winter in the northern Ontario bush that'll hold me for a while. I guess you get used to it.
Lots of French bikes on the roads. Raleighs three's and Norco models. What exactly is a "Norco"? They were listed in various outfitter catalogs that I looked at, too. MTB and road bikes?
Some brands I never saw before. I was glad to see that the bikes mixed well with the motorized traffic...they got respect.
JONathan


   RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Rob on 11/9/2003 at 4:35:28 AM
JONathan...good to hear from you again...I don't think you've ever been silent for so long! I guess there are lots of lightweights around Canada...I only know Vancouver and Victoria, and there seem to be enough of them here...though mostly low-end, as one would expect....Today I picked up for nothing, a Centurion with SunTour GT ders. (date code suggests the bike is late 76, early 77...no wheels, no bars and the seat is basically garbage...Also wandering by a garage sale, I spotted an average mid 80s Raleigh...reasonable components...hardly used...$15CDN.

Winter is usually wet in my part of Canada, not snowy and icy... though the past week has been quite cold...it finally warmed nicely today...I think about 15C (60F)?? I've encountered the eastern winters though...-28C one night in Ottawa...I couldn't believe how cold it was!!! Yuk!!! And all the snow!!! Double yuk!!!

There are still lots of Peugeots around...the bike boom was a big deal in Canada...I guess much the same as in the US. As far as I know Norco is a bike import/design company based in a Vancouver suburb...I seem to recall hearing they started business in the mid 60s...I forget the founder's name...I think the company name is a shortened version of something like "Northern Bicycle Company Ltd"...I have a mid 70s French bike, 'Mirage'...like a Peugeot knock-off, with the Norco name in small print on the headbadge...during the late 70s to mid 80s, they seemed to be tied in with Kawamura...Tange tubing, SunTour ders and freewheel, Dia Compe brakes, Sugino cranks...all in all, a company with a pretty good reputation and a pretty darn good product line, I always seem to be happy enough with Norco bikes...they are still around...mountain bikes and modern-design road bikes....I'm currently considering a Cro-Mo, 10+ year old Norco MTB...really cheap asking price...

As for mixing with the cars...I guess it's pretty good, but one does have to stay awake...I try to stay off the busy roads, and when I have no choice, I keep well to the side...

   RE:RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Randy on 11/9/2003 at 1:37:33 PM
I agree about the availability of bikes in Canada. Wonder why? In the past year I have stumbled across about one hundred that I have dragged home. Not all found permanent residence, though. The keepers, both high end and vintage, are up on my web site for you to view. Have a look, if you are interested. I've been updating the site for a few days now and will continue to do so over the nest few until I have included all the finds I think are worth mention. My web site address is:

http://www.geocities.com/randyjawa/index.html

   RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by T-Mar on 11/9/2003 at 3:46:07 PM
I live less than an hour from Ottawa, with that despicable climate that Rob mentions. You can probably commute by bike on the average of two or three days per week. You learn to dress for the cold (particularly the wind chill) and as long as the roads are dry it's OK. The big concern is the short daylight hours. You leave for work in darkness and come home in twilight. Consequently, a really good lighting system (flashing LEDs preferred) and reflective clothing is a must, as the drivers are not expecting cyclists in the middle of January.

Weekend cycling however is great. You take the mountain bike and head out into the bush on the ATV and snowmobile trails. They pack the snow pretty well, so you can get reasonable traction, but still have to work hard, even on level ground. With all the trees around, the wind chill does not get to you and you can ride in a single inner layer of Lifa (polypropylene underwear) with an outer layer of windbreaker jacket and pants. A layer of vaseline on the exposed flesh of the face is sufficient to take care frostbite. Helmets of course need to be refitted to accommodate a toque (knitted hat - picture Mike Nesmith of Monkee fame)or bellclava (full head cover with eye opening - picture bank robbers). The water in your bottle freezes up pretty quickly, so a Camelback type hydration harness, worn under the jacket, keeps your water in its liquid state. Our temperature limit for extended weekend rides is about -15C (+5F).

Regarding the bikes themselves, the big necessity is gear cables that run along the top tube. Downtube cables pick up all the splash from the front wheel, which eventually freezes the cable to the frame, resulting in a single speed. If you do strictly commuting on dry days, you can get by with downtube cables. Some commuters will run fenders or spashguards, but if you run into an unexpected flurry, wet snow will pack up under the fenders pretty quickly. For offroad, we run the widest possible tires for extra flotation in the snow. Some riders will install sheet metal screws in the knobs of the tires for added traction. They really make a difference should you decide to venture out onto a frozen lake.

Road salt plays havoc with the finish on the aluminum components and the condensation in the tubes is a constant problem if you store the bicycle inside (an unheated garage is probaly best), so if you winter bike isn't a "beater", it soon will be!

   RE:MISC: vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Warren on 11/9/2003 at 8:42:27 PM
I'm somewhere around year 20 in winter commuting. There's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing. Lights and studded front tires are a must. It's an annual ritual prepping a different bike for the winter.

There are a lot of bikes in Toronto, period. Lightweights, roadsters and mudsuckers. Don't know why...maybe a little more of that British heritage and slightly less of the US infatuation with cars. Only slightly less...

I lucked into a cheap 83 Trek 630 sports tourer, all Suntour. It had been in a frontender and was slightly tweaked on the downtube...no real crumple to speak of but a straight edge showed the damage. Took it to a professional framebuider who put it on a jig and pulled it out and aligned the forks ends for $23. There's my winter beater...a double butted Reynolds 531 Trek! Lots of clearance for fenders with knobbies and braze-ons for a rack.


   RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Rob on 11/9/2003 at 10:04:22 PM
I agree with Tom and Warren...dress for the cold and...up to a point, there is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing...when I was in Ottawa (for a couple of years) I didn't cycle in the winter, but I was an avid runner...properly dressed, throat, nose and mouth protected, I was able to run with no problem in -20C weather... (Ottawa has an amazing snow removal process...within hours of a storm, the roads are pretty well cleared, and within a couple of days, they even had most of the sidewalks cleared, too)...and I did like the nice, bright, clear days with that pure northern air...

And, the same thing with the rain...in early October we had some 10 inches of rain in two days with most of it on one day...and I kept on riding, no problem...properly dressed, of course and lots of lights... I think I'll look into studded tires...my biggest fear in Vancouver are the occasional days of black ice...you can be on the ground so fast you can hardly believe it!!!

   RE:RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by JONathan on 11/10/2003 at 4:11:49 AM
Thanks, gents. I got a pretty good handle on it, now. I am curious about tire composition. The Truckee, Ca. region gets real cold at times; winter storms come over the Sierras and the temps are savage low. Riding in that kind of weather, if it compares on a smaller scale to northern Ontario, is something I have avoided. The rubber is hard as a rock! How can you manage normal steerage? The screws must take some getting used to. We can't use studded tires on MV's...at least on the Ca. side, as far as I know.
Bikes may not be a problem for roads as the weight factor is minimal. Anyway, my hat (helmut?) is off to you for braving that condition on a regular basis. That black-ice forms at the least tolerable places, too. Last week, we were just below the ice-rain that came across the region. There was heavy fog around the lakes near Buckhorn. You guys is brave!
I think I might try it if I saw someone else doing it. Toronto had riders with real tight setups for rain and darkness. Put me to shame.
Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC: vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Warren on 11/10/2003 at 5:02:24 AM
The tires have small carbide tipped "studs", not screws, in two rows around the tire. These are sold in stores legitimately...studded tires on cars and trucks are not permitted here either.

Go to ...
http://www.velotique.com/WinterBike.htm
and you can probably order them. $40 cdn plus shipping is not expensive but get them before the snow falls.

Velotique is a great store. I live two blocks from it.

   RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by T-Mar on 11/10/2003 at 4:55:38 PM
Actually Warren, I am referring to screws, though I am well aware of the studded tires you mention. The advantage to buying manufactured, studded tires is that they use carbide studs and will not wear out like screws. I believe IRC, Innova and Nokian all still make studded tires. Nokian have some really nice ones with about 300 studs, but they are expensive. To the best of my knowledge studded bicycle tires are illegal on the roads in Ontario. A bicycle is still a vehicle and subject to the same laws as other vehicles, though I doubt the police will pull you over for a tire check.

Most home made approaches use sheet metal screws to stud tires. They use Robertson drive screws applied from the inside of the tire and overlay the heads with a protective liner. This approach allows you to tailor the length of the protruding tip, depending on the length of the screw. Longer tips will provide better traction in hard pack snow and ice.

The approach the local guys have been using since the late 80's is somewhat different. We use the slotted drive, hex head screws with a raised ridge around the head crown and a flange at the head base. We drive them in from the outside, using the head as the stud. This set-up is superior to true studs in hard pack, is good on ice, but wears quicker. It is also relatively inexpensive compared to manufactured versions and does not have the added weight of a liner that the other home-made approach suffers from. Again, this is strictly an off road set-up and personal preference.

If you're riding on the road, yes, I'd definitely go with a manufactured, studded tire, strictly from a wear point of view. Off road, I still like the home made approach. It's a question of low cost and time versus high cost and convenience. I think there is also a performance advantage, but that can be argued, so I'll leave it out of the equation.

If any of you are further interested in off-road winter cycling, here is an excellent site. http://users.rcn.com/icebike/

   RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Rob on 11/10/2003 at 5:55:29 PM
Great info. on studded tires, guys. Thanks. I have a few questions, though...

1) If using the carbide tip studs for road use, can you maintain a reasonable speed or do you have to slow down a bit?

2) Do you have a good sense of control on ice when you use such tires, or is there some practical limit, i.e., no sharp turns?

3) Do you need them on both tires, or is the front the critical one?

Maybe I should have started a new thread...Anyway whatever info. you can provide...

Thanks.

   RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Rob on 11/10/2003 at 7:01:00 PM
I just read a review on studded tires at:

http://users.rcn.com/icebike/Equipment/tires.htm

Peter Cole in/near Boston, very graphically describes his experiences on studded tires. Nokian, a Finnish company, seems to have the edge...IRC the next best...and I can see you want to get well-designed tires...otherwise it looks like the studs just get pounded into the tire body... And, it looks like the smart thing is to set-up an extra set of wheels to swap over for those dicey days. Now to see if I can get them for a good price somewhere...

   RE:RE:MISC: vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by Warren on 11/11/2003 at 12:11:25 AM
The front is a must...I also keep a spare wheel with a smooth tread for light days. There is quite a noticeable amount of drag, even with just a front but it's not terrible and speed isn't the point here. I use a cross tire on the rear. You will be delighted with the traction but don't think you can start doing trials across the local rink.

T-mar...I tried the screws thing years ago but I can't imagine using them after using factory ones. But I don't do offroad anymore.

As for them being illegal, well some laws should just be ignored now shouldn't they? They do sell them in stores across the country. I can't see bikes haven't a serious impact on road surfaces, if that is the concern.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC: vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by mike patterson on 11/11/2003 at 4:45:52 AM
Studded tires on cars are allowed in New Brunswick for four months of the worst winter. No-one I know here used studded tires on road bikes, but on Mountain Bikes most use the large size screws in a heavy tire with a liner made from an old tube. They ride off road in heavy snow and on the skidoo trails. My two boys want to stud the tires for a couple of BMXs and "race" them on the river in front of our house when it freezes. I am encouraging this endeavour for the humour content but my wife is not as thrilled. (although I am tepted to stud a tire for a single speed MTB frame and join them, wearing a padded skidoo suit of course).

Lightweights, we got lightweights. Picked up a Bianci (low end but in nice shape, almost NOS) and a raleigh women's sport in the same condition, tires flat and rotted from sitting for 30 years or so... have in the past found Norcos, Nishikis,(including one I traded for a '58 superbe), specialized MTBs (3 so far) trek Mtb and road, and a Basso with a cinelli BB and Campi lugs. Where? At the local landfills and I run an ad "for free pickup of old or broken bicycles, call.." sure you get a lot of junk but you should see the condition of the ladies Sport and it came with two wicker baskets for the handlebars. try the ad (not in Saint John though please).


   RE:MISC:   vintage lightweights seen in Canada posted by T-Mar on 11/11/2003 at 1:27:30 PM
Rob,

To answer your questions;

1. As Warren states, there is an increase in rolling resistance, but given the conditions you're riding in, you want to slow down a bit anyways.

2.Yes, there is a feeling of control on hard pack and ice, but like all tires, there is a practical limit. Basically, they give you an extra safety margin. I always tend to take it much easier in the winter, planning my moves well in advance and trying to avoid sudden steering inputs, braking applications and too much pedal torque. With studded tires, it's more what you don't notice, as oppossed to what you do. Most patches which would normally put you down unexpectedly, will probably be ridden through without realizing it.

3. There is no way I would ride without a full set! I know a lot of people argue that the front controls the steering and that's the only one that really needs to be studded, but I disagree. On ice, an unstudded rear tire will quickly break away if too much torque or brake is applied, regardless of what you have up front. It's not worth the extra risk in my opinion.







FOR SALE:   Peugoet UO-8 Parts posted by: Bryant on 11/8/2003 at 9:37:00 PM
It's clean out time. My son is coming home and I've got to get the bike parts out of his room. I have a like new Rigida chrome wheelset from a 1972 Peugeot UO-8 for $10 plus shipping. Wheelset includes Simplex skewers and a Maillard freewheel. I also have Simplex Prestige Front and rear derailleurs and downtube shifters (The kind that needs one braze-on boss on the frame) for $5 plus shipping. Finally there is the handlebars and AVA "Deathstem" that originally came with the the UO-8. Those are free - shipping only as long as you use the stem for show purposes only. Pictures are available upon request. Thought I'd give you all a shot first before I put it on Ebay. To figure shipping charges, I am in the Baltimore MD area, zip code 21085. Email me if your interested.







AGE / VALUE:   Unusual Weinmann Brakeset posted by: Don on 11/8/2003 at 3:20:09 PM
Just acquired a Motobecane Grand Tour in great shape. It has a Weinmann centerpull brakeset like none I ever saw. Instead of straddle cable yokes it has a pair of metal levers joined at the top by a triangular Weinmann nameplate.
The brakes themselves look very much like the more common Mafac brakes but everything including the levers is branded Weinmann. The LBS owner & his mechanic had never seen anything like these before & they used to sell MBK in the 70s. Can anyone enlighten me? This bike also has "MotoBecane" in 1/2 inch plastic letters on the crank side of the top tube just in front of the seat tube, kind of hokey but also something I have never seen before. Can anyone enlighten me?? Don


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Unusual Weinmann Brakeset posted by T-Mar on 11/9/2003 at 1:55:26 AM
Motobécane became MBK in 1983. I have heard two different stories relative to the name change. Sheldon Brown's site states that Motobécane went into bankruptcy and reformed as MBK. The other story is that Yamaha bought the company and imposed the name change for a more international identity than the distinctly French Motobécane. Motobécane produced bicycles, motorized bicycles and mopeds, so it is unclear if Yamaha was trying to consolidate the motorized bicycle/moped market or the bicycle market (they had previously bought Viscount), or both. It is notable that prior to the Yanaha acquistion, Motobecane had acquired another major French motorized bicyle/moped manufacturer, VeloSolex, giving more credence to the Yahama takeover.

Regardless of which story is true (perhaps it's a combination), MBK (em-bay-kay)is a play on abbreviating Motobecane. Undoubtedly, it is an attempt to retain some identification with the old brand name, which was taken over by a U.S.A. firm who has the bicycles manufactured in the far east.

"Moto" is a French slang word for motorcycle, while "bécane" is French slang for bicycle, so the appearance of "Moto Bécane"
on the top tube may have been a way of showing the MBK heritage, without infringing on the trademark of the new U.S.A. owner, at least until the new name became established (or the name infringancy lawsuits were filed).

If it is the same brake that I'm thinking of, the Weinmann model you have was their attempt at creating a compact, aero brakeset along the lines on the Campagnolo Delta, Shimano Dura Ace AX and Modolo Kronos that were in vogue at the time. The brake was a more economical version than its competitors, which tended to be top end.

Both the name and the brakes would seem to indicate that your bicycle is probably from the mid 1980s.








AGE / VALUE:   Vintage Lightweight literature posted by: Corey on 11/8/2003 at 2:21:45 AM
I was wondering what books or publications about vintage bicycles/lightweights others are reading?

Does anybody here read procycling or Cyclesport magazines for their historical retrospectives? Being both British publications, they usually give a different perspective than what we usually see here (in Bicycling magazine for example), in the U.S.

In no particular order I have read: The American Bicycle, by Pridmore and Hurd: The Vintage Racing Bicycle Newsletter, (now defunct), by Michael Kone; Collecting and Restoring Antique Bicycles, by G. Donald Adams, (not exactly vintage lightweight, but interesting); and I enjoy Jim Cunningham's stories posted on Cyclart's website.

Looking for other suggestions of stuff to read.

Corey


   RE:AGE / VALUE: Vintage Lightweight literature posted by jack on 11/8/2003 at 9:07:05 AM
Corey, I share your view that there isn't much available in US on this subject. One reason I keep my old (70's) US bike mags is that they used to have articles on collectors and bikes they collected. I'm pretty sure the mainstream US mags have been gobbled-up by the mega-corporations which basically print glorified advertising passing for real info, kinda like TV! In my quest, I find some very good sites on the Web for Paramount, Raleigh, Cinelli, and other major makes. Use your browser and you can find some of this although info on the really obscure stuff will be tougher to find.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   My good luck posted by: Fred on 11/7/2003 at 12:27:58 AM
I had some good luck recently in the form of two good Raleigh 12 speeds.I drove by the local thrift store and saw a bike being unloaded from the back of an SUV. I quickly parked and went over to where the bike had been leaned up against the building. I approached the man who had unloaded the bike and asked him if he was donating the bike and would he let me have it. He informed me that he would take $40 for it. I counter offered $25 and we settled for $30. I handed him 2 $20's and for some reason he handed me back $15. I didn't notice at the time that he had made a mistake and loaded the bike in my car. As I was driving home I looked at my money and realized the error. by the way, the bike is a Raleigh Pursuit in near mint condition.

I found the second bike, a very nice Raleigh Capri sitting at the curb. actually it was back from the roadside at the edge of an apartment building parking lot. I was somewhat reluctant to take it but I reasoned that it would be taken by somebody, why not me. I quickly loaded it in the car and took it home.

I gave the Pursuit a thorough cleaning and waxing which made it look like new. They are still out there so keep up the hunt.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   My good luck posted by Gralyn on 11/7/2003 at 3:57:19 PM
Wow! That is some awesome good luck. Things have all but dried up around here so far as thrift stores go - but, I think that as I get the word out more and more - and as more people discover that I like to tinker with these old bikes - I have a feeling I will be pointed to more and more of them.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   My good luck posted by Bryant on 11/7/2003 at 6:01:12 PM
Yeah the lightweights have dried up here too. I did however find an older (late 80's) Trek 800 mountain bike that's my size , at a yard sale. Just in time for winter commuting.
Lady started at $100 and when I didn't seem interested anymore went to $20. I guess she didn't want to haul it back.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   My good luck posted by Kevin K on 11/8/2003 at 1:26:24 AM
Hi Guys. While hardly what one would call a lightweight I went to an estate sale this morning and landed a nice 1965 Schwinn Twinn ( tandem ) In Violet. $50. Yes, the bikes are still out there just gotta keep looking. Kevin