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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   AMERICAN FLYER posted by: ERIC HOLM on 5/18/2003 at 3:17:05 PM

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   French Bastide Track bicycle posted by: Joel on 5/18/2003 at 11:09:35 AM
I would love to hear from someone who is a bike expert.
I e-mailed lots of museums and said I have this 1930s track bike and
that only 700 were made . My answers was"what kind of bike do you have?" anybody out there with more details? Its in excellent condition! Thanks folks , Joel

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   French Bastide Track bicycle posted by JONathan on 5/18/2003 at 10:49:58 PM
Firstly, I have no expertise. The Bastide was the bike-of-choice it seems for several top riders in 6-day races. My Grandfather used to coach 6-day bicycle racers, so I am very interested in the bike.
It is an exquisite bike. I got this address:BASTIDE 56, BOULEVARD DE CL__Y,PARIS. Now, I presume that's the maker, not that they are still making bikes, but it's a start. Also, I have read of a bike shop in N.C., I believe, that had one. You have a fantastic bike! Treat it as an art treasure...Lucky you, JONathan

   the word "France" posted by JONathan on 5/18/2003 at 10:52:56 PM
The "FRANCE" after/below my name in the post above has no meaning...it just showed up.??..JONathan

MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by: JONathan on 5/17/2003 at 11:27:26 PM
What I thought was friction in the fork steerage due to died bearings, turned out to be a slight bend in the steerer tube. I wish to maintain the bike as original, but as a rideable bike. Safety is always a concern and especially in the steering apparatus. Would a careful straightening of the steerer tube such that it tracks well in the races (top and bottom) be a reasonable repair effort. I have straighented forks before with good results, but never have I straightened a steerer tube. The fork set is in very good condition otherwise and it "looks" cool on the bike. I have a UO-8 fork set that I could swap, but originality would be heavily compromised.
Anybody ever messed with a bent steerer-tube? Help a duffer out!! Thanks, JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Fred A on 5/18/2003 at 12:30:22 AM
I have a 10 speed Mercier from I believe the 70's (possibly 60's?). 100% original, right down to the tires and toe clips. Mine has a slightly bent fork, which is a problem on turns as the tire clips my foot. That said, the bike has been relegated to part of my "viewing" collection and not being ridden at all. I have plenty others for that!A shame, though. The chrome is flawless throughout, and the paint just has some scrapes and scratches. Baby Blue in color, it's the only one I've ever seen.

Good luck to you on getting yours fixed. One day I'll have to go to my bike shop and have them fix my fork, although I'm a little concerned that it could crack and ruin the fork. I, too, like to keep things original whenever possible. Ever try to find a replacement? Good luck!!

   RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Doug Borror on 5/18/2003 at 3:21:29 AM
I have a trash bin salvaged early Mercier, rims were bent, but frmae and fork seem straight. I was going to rebuild it with newer components, but I have another project, a Puch bicycle, so I can part with the Mercier. My wife gets irritated with all my projects anyway. E-mail if you're interested, I live in Indiana, and can put some pictures and details up on my website, or email them to you.

   RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Warren on 5/18/2003 at 3:37:20 AM

I've had some luck with them if they are bent from a head-on collision and the bend is at 90 degrees to the fork crown. This is usually the case. Make sure your fork isn't seriously damaged...any twist will be amplified when using this graceful, highly scientific method. I use a nice flat concrete floor and some hardwood blocks. I use at least a few headset bearing races...as many as possible . Use them to protect the threads where it is needed...certainly at the point of contact with the wood blocks and possibly where the hammer has to hit it steerer. Oh yeah...I forgot to mention the Big Farging Hammer...now referred to as the BFG. I like to use a heavy dead blow hammer in conjunction with some more hardwood blocks...hard maple is the best. Support the fork with wood at the dropouts and the top of the steerer. Whack that steerer until your straightedge shows it to be straight. Move the supports around to get the adjustments to appen in the right places. The headset parts keep the steerer from deforming...you hope. If you can't get it straight, use a replacement fork.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by JONathan on 5/18/2003 at 6:27:08 AM
Interesting approach to the problem of straightening the tube, Warren. Unfortunately, I would probably wreck the poor thing doing that. I had planned to attach a 4 foot 2x6 piece of white oak to the fork crown and blades using a bolt through the brake mounting hole and some parachute strap. A couple V-blocks cut from ash will secure the steerer in my vice. This is not your ordinary vice. I can't lift this vice in one piece. It's mounted with 5/8 carriage bolts to 3 inch maple workbench that's anchored to a tree! The 4 foot oak plank has worked well for bending some pretty tough stuff. The longer the board the more control there is in the force applied. The trick is NOT bending the pipe, rather how far to bend it. There is always some backlash due to modulus of elasticity, so I need to go a tad more than looks "normal", under tension. You are right about the direction of bend. The headset-fork misalignment is very slight. I'm sure I've run around on a lot worse, when I was dumber. The tube looks pretty tough; like it could handle the cold-bend without weakening to a critical degree, not that I would know what that value is, just a guess. I'll probably keep it as a museum piece. The decal on the downtube is of this cartoon guy waving as he is crossing a finish line. Thanks, again. The last time I used a sledge hammer on a bike, the result obliterated any further interest that I had in the project....JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Tom on 5/18/2003 at 2:49:06 PM
As a rule of thumb, I'll straighten any steel tube that hasn't been creased by the damage. To date, I've had no subsequent failures reported back to be.

To straighten steerer tubes I insert an old stem into the tube for support, then clamp the the top section of the column, just above the bend, in V-blocks. A 3/4" diameter rod fits nicely into the bottom of most forks crowns to act as a pry bar. A four foot length is just about right to gain sufficient leverage, but not overdo things. As you stated, you do have to overshoot the mark a bit, due to the backlash.

Before starting, check that the fork legs are also not bent backwards at the crown. This is very common in conjunction with bent steerer tubes. It's too easy to overcompensate with the steerer, only to find out later that there is also a problem with the fork blades. Then you have to go back and unbend the steerer. Good luck

   RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by JONathan on 5/18/2003 at 6:45:06 PM
Thanks, Tom. I will try your more refined method of bending the tube. Warren, if that fails, I can always go find the "BFG" and really teach that steerer a lesson. Thanks, JONathan

   RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by JONathan on 5/18/2003 at 6:48:40 PM
Tom, thanks for answering my question as well. Nice to know the repair is a feasible venture....JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Fred A on 5/18/2003 at 8:33:48 PM
OK...you guys convinced me...that there is no way in hell I'm going to attempt to do this myself. With my luck, I'll end up holding to pieces of steel that was once a fork. Off to my LBS!

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Warren on 5/18/2003 at 10:32:20 PM
I mean't threaded headset bearing cups...not races. That wouldn't be very rugged would it now.

   RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Keith on 5/19/2003 at 2:02:01 PM
The only problem I see is that unless you do an absolutely perfect job, the headset bearings will never be properly aligned. I wouldn't accept much room for error on anything that affects steering. Shoot, good mechanics reface the head tube to get the alignment more precise.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by Dave on 5/19/2003 at 2:25:32 PM
Jonathan, Mercier's are awesome,I have one w/tatty decals(including the cartoon guy waving his arms up in victory) a mid 70's model I used house paint on. Try www.recycledcycles.net I bought a nice aluminum fork from him for my 1999 Raleigh Super Course.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by JONathan on 5/19/2003 at 6:19:02 PM
Keith, if we lived a perfect world...you are right. I am interested in a salvage operation on this tough ole runner. If I can go "no hands" on it and it feels right, I'll be happy. It is functional the way it stands, hopefully the tweaking will make it better. The forks are otherwise fine. The loose headset I think was the cause. It must have been pretty sloppy riding. Can't imagine a guy outting up with that when a quick wrench can fix it. He probably got into a chuckhole and it had enough throw to lever the steerer out of alignment. Just speculation on my part, it really doesn;t effect the repair efforts to know. Interesting how one can easily lower the bar for fix-ups when the intended purpose is considered. Yeah, Dave. This green bike could be a "green" bike. I'm thinking a commuter with a flare of individuality. I have it on the workstand, right now. Just looks like a solid bike, especially the forks and crown. Toughere looking than the UO-8 in the BB and chainstays. Half-chrome fore and aft with crown cap chromed as well. Nice braze-ons and a funky top-tube pair of pump bosses. They are not clunky like the old Peugeots on the down-tube. Fun to work on, too. No junky feel to it, despite the slightly oxidized paint. Decals are fine. I'd like to get a picture of it when complete...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mercier 10 speed from 60's; bent steer-tube posted by JONathan on 5/21/2003 at 4:30:10 AM
The steerer is straight and spins better than when the bike was new. I tried to do it myself, but was thinking that I better have a pro take it on. Well, my brother is a pro (restores bronze sculptures) who had a no nonsense attitude about the job, although he doesn't have much to do with bicycles, the metal work was a snap. He had a perfect fit solid stainless steel pin that he lubricated and swaged into the steerer. He then applied a feathering type flame from a torch that heated the steerer just enough to pop the rust, literally. The pin absorbed a lot of heat and the tube straightened out with ease. It was as if it had memory! I couldn't believe he made it look so easy and it was right on the money. The forks spin freely with no catches. No slop in the headset either. That was the last major feat to getting this bike back to par. The rest is componentry. Wow, it's going to be great...I know it's a beater, but I it's a vintage LW, too. Oh, I think there was more art to the job. The pin was positioned at doifferent points in the tube and then worked a little each time. I noticed that it was out of line laterally as well as fore and aft. It was a tricky feat. I won't use any other method, but I need to practice the technique. Overheating (>1200 F) is potential problem, which is why a pro needs to do it...JONathan

AGE / VALUE:   Garage sale Raleigh! posted by: Warren on 5/17/2003 at 9:15:07 PM
A very clean Super Course MkII, in red, B17, nice chrome for $10.00. Whoo-hooo. Brought it home, stripped it and rebuilt it with a pair of track wheels from the 70's. Three hours later... voilá...a fixed gear road bike for my wife Elizabeth.

She's getting as bad as me...5 bikes and counting. 4 of them are over 25 years old.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Garage sale Raleigh! posted by Stacey on 5/18/2003 at 10:24:13 AM
Some guy's have all the luck!!!

Congrats on a great find Warren. Gotta admit, Elizabeth has had a wonderful role model.

AGE / VALUE:   REALLY COOL SHOES FOR SALE posted by: Kevin K on 5/17/2003 at 1:02:53 PM
Hi all. Please see for sale section for details. Thanks, Kevin

AGE / VALUE:   Shimano "adamas" equipment group posted by: Douglas on 5/17/2003 at 5:43:21 AM
I purchased($3.00)an Aero 112 today solely on the fact it came equipped with a full Shimano adamas group.I've heard these good looking brakes are questionable in their stopping power, but what about the rest of the adamas package? I have not had but a quick study of the bike yet.
The Chainwheel is designed with riveted on special teeth to aid in shifts(?),along with a special chain that has "lift bumps" on the plates.There is what appears to be a different B.B. axle/cup set-up. The derailers are different for the sake of being different.Complicated and fussy with the opposite sort of cable stop requirement of most systems.The cables wrap around corners and all sorts of nylon guides making what looks like a set-up and tuning headache.Anyone have any experience with this equipment group? It was unsuccessful and seems to have run only a season (81-82) or so. I've seen it only a couple times and this is my first opportunity to really study it. What were the advances touted by Shimano's marketing team?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Shimano posted by Tom on 5/18/2003 at 10:59:12 AM
In the early 80's, Shimano tried to intitiate an aerodynamics craze with the introduction of three new groups. Adamas AX was the bottom end of these groups. Dura Ace AX and 600AX where the others. The Dura Ace AX and 600AX groups got the majority of the innovations but there was some flow down to the Adamas AX group.

The basic premise of all 3 groups was refined aerodynamic styling that would allow you to ride faster. However, there was also a lot of technical innovation introduced by these groups.

All the AX hubs had Direction-6 hub flanges. This amounted to extra thick hub flanges with a recess on the outer flange for every other spoke. This allowed all spokes to be inserted from the inside of the flange, making wheel building and spoke replacement easier. It also widened the effective flange spacing and equalized the tension in the spokes, providing 10% more radial stiffness and 20% more lateral stiffness. More practically, the funky, blue dust caps extended out to the end of the locknuts, providing better sealing from the environment, in addition to the supposed aerodynamic benefits.

The rear AX rear derailleurs incorporated two innovations. First was the Direct Cable mechanism. This was basically a cable guide that ran over the top and down the back of the top pivot. Essentially, it allowed elimination of the outer cable housing and the end stop on the frame. With the flexible cable housing eliminated, shifting would theoretically be crisper. The second innovation was Positive Mechanism. This amounted to a series of steps on a small plate in the drailleur body, allowing the derailleur to "index" with the cassette cogs. Basically it was the penultimate devlopment in Shimano's quest for indexed shifting. They had started with Positron and would ultimately get it right with SIS.

The front AX derailleurs had a New Trap-Ease Mechanism and Chain Release indent. The linkage provide a non-parallel cage movement. As the cage moved from the small to the big chainring there a slight diagonal movement in the horizontal plane. This reportedly provided extra thrust to provide a quick, positive shift. The outer plate of the cage incorporated a small indent to prevent the chain from dropping between the large chainring and crankarm.

The brakes employed the Para-Pull mechanism. Basically, it was a centre-pull design with arms being activated by a triangular cam that is pulled up between the top of the arms. The cams had a notch on both sides, at the top. This notch gave a large amount of pad travel for very little lever pull, applying intial braking power to the rim more quickly. Since the intial movement was so large, it also allowed the pads to be set furhter from the rim and in doing so eliminated the need for a traditional quick release mechanism. The shape of the lower cam also allowed the engineer to tailor the brakes responsiveness to the cable travel. Reportedly, the cam design also allowed automatic correction for any imbalance in the pressure applied by one arm due to rims that were warped or not centred. Finally, the brake shoes were cast into arms for areo purposes. Vertical adjustment of the brake pads was achieved by a slot in the back of the bridge, which allowed the whole brake assembly to be raised or lowered.

The brake levers incorporated Shimano's version of internal cable routing, which is one of the few innovations that caught on.

The Adamas crank, if I recall correctly, had a bottom bracket that was very similar to the Selecta crankset introduced a few years earlier. Please refer to the Shimano Selecta B-1 thread of April 21, 2003 for a thorough description. The Dura Ace AX and 600AX lines retained the standard ball and cup botttom bracket, with the square taper on the ends of the spindle.

From a subjective point of view, I always admired the AX groups. I owned a Dura Ace AX group and thought it looked great and worked well. The general consensus was that the derailleurs shifted better than anything on the market at that time. The brakes were similar to the later Modolo Kronos and the Campagnolo Delta, but were very tiny. I believe there was a perception that something so small could not stop well. They certainly outperformed the Kronos and were much easier to set-up than the Delta. The bad news is that it's extremely hard to find replacement brake pads. The hubs certainly didn't seem to get as much dirt into the bearings and I never broke a spoke, though otherwise I didn't notice any difference. It's too bad the Dyna-Drive pedal system didn't make it's way down to Adamas AX. For me that was the real innovation. With the pedal platform at the axle axis, the foot was incredibly stable during out-of-saddle efforts.

There are lots of theories as to why the AX series didn't succeed. Sure, maybe the aerodynamic benefits were questionable. But in the end, I think the market was just not ready for something that looked so different and incorporated so many changes at once. Maybe if they hadn't marketed relatively normal EX versions of these groups at the same time, the AX stuff would have caught on. Too bad, it really was good stuff.

AGE / VALUE:   Age /Value posted by: AG on 5/16/2003 at 4:33:30 PM
I have a Rudge Bicyle with a serial # 79272
in checking the numbers in this site i cannot find a matching number i would like any information i can get on it as to year,origin And value itis in decent condition.
Thank You

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Age /Value posted by sam on 5/17/2003 at 7:24:13 PM
If it has a sturmey/archer 3-speed the date will be stamped on the hub--that will tell app. age of bike.For other type of hubs,etc. check on the English Roadester group--P.C. knows Rudge fairly good.And Chris as well.

AGE / VALUE:   Something I hadn't noted till today posted by: sam on 5/16/2003 at 2:51:56 PM
Stopped by GW today--only had a Varsity 10 speed.Dull green,newer type with the serial number on the head tube,and not to schwinn like welds.Then I saw the crank.It wasn't like the others I've seen.This varsity had the Diamond crank like schwinn used in the teens and 20s on their bikes!What years were these Diamond cranks used ?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Something I hadn't noted till today posted by Gralyn on 5/16/2003 at 7:31:06 PM
You know - it is very possible that someone replaced the crank with a very old one a long time ago. I'm just thinking...if it was me....way back around 1970 or so....and my crank/chainring broke...I would probably replace it with whatever I could find - unless I had the money to take it to the LBS for them to fix.
I can remember tinkering with bikes way back then...we had all sorts of old parts lying around...really, really ancient stuff. A lot of parts we got from a cousin of mine who had a small building full of old bike frames and parts. I wish I knew what happened to that stuff. It could still be around.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Something I hadn't noted till today posted by Oscar on 5/17/2003 at 3:27:42 AM
I'll bet you dimes to doughnuts that the cool crank was a swap. I only know of three Varsity crank styles: Sprint, that kind of mag style with the huge pie plate chainguard, and the front-freewheel. None of those looked cool like the diamond one you found.

How many teeth on that thing? I'm looking for a cool-looking chainring for an ashtabula crank anywhere between 39 and 46 teeth.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Something I hadn't noted till today posted by Ken on 5/19/2003 at 6:15:07 PM
Sam, if I understand what you're describing, you mean the cross-section of the crank itself is diamond-shaped? That's the kind of crank I found on the project prewar DX I acquired, and it turned out to be from the 70s. I know the 'bicentennial' Varsity and Continental had that crank, which does look very different from the ones from the Corvette era. Of course, if it was yours you'd open it up and see what it says...

AGE / VALUE:   Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by: JONathan on 5/15/2003 at 9:45:55 PM
$5 at a church rummage sale: "Easy/500/Rider" made in Japan. The interesting feature is the rear derailer. Make of it is; "DNB". Has anyone heard of it. The front is also "DNB", but is missing the chain guide (no problem). Cottered cranks and rusted out chrome tourist bars. Brakes are flimsy sidepulls that were acceptable on bikes before speeds of 15 mph could be obtained. I can't decide on the bike. It'll be there tomorrow, I'm sure. Maybe they'll give it to me, rather than toss it in the dumpster.
The derailer is very simple, yet effective. Not a work of art or performance related. If anyone has heard of "DNB" and thinks it's worth saving from the soup pot, let me know...JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by Tom on 5/15/2003 at 11:49:11 PM
Jonothan, apparently Dia/DNB/Dynamic was an early producer of Japanese derailleurs. There is a small reference to them on the Sunset for Suntour site, http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/'hadland/page35.htm Sounds like they were 50's and maybe 60's. At $5, I'd pick it up, just to have the derailleur for a conversation piece. If you don't want it, pick it up for me. I'll re-imbuse the cost and shipping.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by Dave on 5/16/2003 at 2:00:15 PM
A much newer full suspension mountain bike,(Quasar brand),that was locked up to the bike rack I leave my Varsity at had a "DNB"or"DNR" front derailler, a top pull type.Otherwise this bike had bolt on hubs,SRAM gripshifters and Shimano Altus rear derailler.I also never heard of "DNB/DNR" before either.The bike looks like a department store bike,but it at least had alloy rims.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by JONathan on 5/16/2003 at 3:03:29 PM
Worth another look. Harvesting these hulks for parts makes sense. Not that they couldn't be made fit to ride, it's just that an inordinate amount of work is required. Actually, I'd rather ride this bike fixed up than a new one from the dept. store. Is that pathetic?
Dave, the nutted axles are what works best for me on MTB's. You can get those real tight and they're stronger. I've seen quality bikes with nutted axles, but only MTB's....Gonna get the truck warmed up, Tom...Take'reze, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by Dave on 5/16/2003 at 4:09:19 PM
Jonathan, Funny you should say that, my 220 lbs. or so have mananged to break 3 axles and only the first one wasn't a nutted type.The last one was on a cheap Univega Mountain bike with an equally cheap steel rear hub,I installed Shimano QR wheels and the problems disappeared,(as did $300).

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by Martin H on 5/16/2003 at 6:49:03 PM
Jonathan, I have a set of these. I took them off a junked bike because they looked so cool. The rear has a red enamel surface and an odd shape - surely a conversation piece - go get it!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by JONathan on 5/18/2003 at 4:05:05 AM
Thanks very much for all the comments. Oscar, you are right-on. The wheels on it were lower end, rust-bucket material. The rest of the bike still has lub on the components, no rust, which is consistent with indoor storage. Whereas the rusted wheels were slapped on after the owner took the alloys for another mount, I say. Bit of a stork it looks like. Kindly ole beast it is, despite it's intimdating appearance. I'm thinking of keeping the fella for conversation stimulus...Thanks, JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by JONathan on 5/16/2003 at 11:29:52 PM
Dave, you hit on an important feature; QUALITY. The first MTB I had is a Univega "Alpina Uno". I only keep it becuase I was a pauper and it never let me down. I bent a solid axle on it. The steel is very mild and bends easily in a vise. Too easy. OTOH, the hollow axles are usually heat-treated for toughness and the carbon % gives them strength, I suspect. Much higher grade. The old Schwinn nutted axles are stronger IMHO, as are the older European jobs. The Univega axle was like a notch above the silver pot-metal bolts that are at most DIY stores. No "ping" to 'em.
Martin, I went back and they were filling a 30' dumper with the residual items. I saw a Schwinn "Sports Tourer" and the beat "Easy Rider 500" with DNB derailers lying in the dirt. The MIC said I could have them for $10...that's with a '70 "Continental" covered with dried moss thrown in the sweeten the deal! My wife is gonna fly, man. I'm in hog's heaven, for now. Yeah, that der. is pretty lean. It has an allen bolt anchoring it to the insert. It actually shifts really well. I was surprised. The "Sports Tourer" has a 27" seat-tube! The seat-post is 17" long. The ole "yellar" is just never had a bath. Paint is great under the dirt. Everything moves that needs to. The "Sports Tourer" is in great shape, except the steel rims have a prickly coat of rust. If I get organized, they'll have a spot in the shed until I can get 'em tuned. I think if a guy sits on these for a decade, they may well be of some value. What do you think?

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by JONathan on 5/16/2003 at 11:45:08 PM
The "Continental" is the yellar one. The ST is black with redish/orange highlight. Red and black, a good combo.
Had a '75 "Suburban" for $2 American! It wasn't "positron" equipped, so I let it go. This was at another rummage sale at my old church that started, today. I got a "Mercier" for $2 at this sale. I know I'm an itiot! JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by Oscar on 5/17/2003 at 1:45:04 AM

Your Sports Tourer is a quality piece. I think they came with all higher end components, so the steel wheels might have been a swap at some point.

I think taller frames are more valuable on ebay than anywhere else. I think tall guys are frustrated when looking for decent frames. On the other hand, they tend to be the pick of the litter at the thrift stores: Full of tall frames and short ones. The 23 inchers must all be on the road.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Japanese pre-bikeboom 10 spd. posted by JONathan on 5/19/2003 at 4:40:20 AM
Thanks, Oscar. There is a "re:" post I made that appeared out of sequence. Anyways, the bike is definitely at the extreme end of frame size. I can't imagine that the bike is a standard issue frame. It's 27 inches from the center of crank-spindle to the top of the seat tube!...JONathan

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   a very cool bike posted by: Brian L. on 5/15/2003 at 9:07:32 PM
from one of "the" names in cycling: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3608841557&category=7298

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   a very cool bike posted by Oscar on 5/17/2003 at 1:47:13 AM

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Free Spirits posted by: Gralyn on 5/15/2003 at 8:29:44 PM
I know there have been numerous posts over the past couple months about the availability of vintage lightweights in the usual places. Well, I have noticed something - and I don't know if anyone else has experience the same thing or not - but there seems to be an unusual nunmber of Free Spirit bikes available. Most all of what I see now is Free Spirit, Huffy, and Murray - mostly Free Spirit - with an occasional Schwinn thrown in. I swear - there wasn't that many Free Spirits showing up a year ago! Has anyone else noticed this?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Free Spirits posted by Kevin K on 5/15/2003 at 8:47:40 PM
Hey. Yea. A man in town here that sells used bikes has about 6 red/white Huffy 10 speeds. 2 are real nice but.....no way. Kinda funny to see so many in one spot. Kevin K

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Free Spirits posted by Dave on 5/15/2003 at 9:23:49 PM
I think the Austrian made one's were very sturdy. I found one with a cardboard "Free Bike" sign attached once about 14 years ago, it was at least 15+ years old and looked NOS.I rode one myself for commuting until I hit a car coming out of a driveway,(ended my sidewalk riding days).I had a scratch on my hand but the frame was crumpled.Back in the early '80's I had a nice burgundy colored one that I added alloy rims to, still weighed at least 30 lbs. but it was all I could afford at the time. Whichever Taiwan company built these bikes,(Giant or Merida), sure built them strong.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Free Spirits posted by Rob on 5/15/2003 at 9:56:14 PM
Yes...it's funny how these things seem to go. I've been seeing a lot of them, too. I guess at one point they were the quintessential department store bike...There are scads of them in Canada, at least in my part, along with an equally "charming" bike called, 'Venture'...I don't know who makes the Venture...I generally bypass both brands...

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Free Spirits posted by Fred A on 5/16/2003 at 2:18:17 AM
Yup.........picked up a 10 speed curbside last week. Girls model in really great shape and all original. I'll donate it to a thrift store after I clean it up so maybe someone in need of a cheap ride can get it. Sure beats having it crushed and ending up in a landfill.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Free Spirits posted by Tom on 5/16/2003 at 2:57:18 PM
Rob, if I recall correctly, Venture was sold by Zellers. Basically, they were the big competition for CTC's Supercycle brand and CD's Voyageur brand. Low level, consumer bicycles.

AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by: Tom on 5/15/2003 at 3:11:23 PM
I think that Wings enquiry on bicyle wheel loads deserves a new thread, so here goes.

A well built, 36 spoke wheel will reportedly withstand 400- 500 kg (880-1100 lbs). While this is far in excess of most rider/bicycle combinations, a wheel can be overloaded and fail. The other two prime failure modes are fatigue and damage. For those of you who want to get into the technicalties of wheel failure and prevention, read on.

Overload failures occur when the combined radial, lateral and torsional loads exceed the wheel's capacity. First, it is important to understand that a wheel is supported only by the spokes that are in tension (i.e. the spokes at the top of the wheel). When a wheel contacts the road, the spokes in that area (i.e the bottom)slacken slightly as the rim is deflected slighty. The tension between the rim and spoke nipple is diminished in this area and, for an improperly tensioned spoke, the nipple can unwind. Of course, this effect is amplified when a wheel hits a bump or pothole and an improperly tensioned spoke may lose all tension. If, at the same time, the rim experiences a lateral force (i.e. the bike is leaned over), then the release of tension on the bottom spokes allows the rim to be forced off to one side. A chain reaction goes into play as the wheel revolves, and can result in wheel collapse (the dreaded Pringle's potato chip) and a mouthful of asphalt. A properly tensioned wheel will help prevent this by ensuring the bottom spokes remain in tension during normal revolution and resonable impacts.

The second primary mode of wheel failure is component fatigue, which usually occurs in spokes on the rear wheel. Spoke failure occurs more often in the rear wheel, not because of the extra weight or torsion, but because the stiffness of the rear triangle does not absorb the loads like the front fork. Fatigue in spokes is primarily due to recurring stress cyles. While this occurs naturally in wheels, it is compounded by improper spoke lines. A spoke with an improper line forms a very subtle "S". This is readily evident by a spoke that does not lie flat against the flange of the hub. There will also be a subtle bend exiting the rim, but it's more difficult to see.

The third primary failure mode is due to damage, the most common being damage to the rear wheel spokes on the cog side, due to chains shifting into the spokes. The spokes get nicked, reducing their load capacity and eventually they fail.

Wheel failure can be minized by proper spoke tension, proper spoke line, stress relief, and replacing damaged spokes. Proper spoke tension is acheived using a tensiometer or by feel. Feel can only be achieved through experience or comparison with a properly built wheel, so I won't go down that road here. However, here are some tips for maintaining tension, inproving spoke line and stress relief.

1. Lubricate the underside of the nipple before insertion. This decreases friction with the rim, making nipples easier to turn and improve spoke alignment.

2. Lubricate the nipple threads and over tighten nipples by 1/4 turn, then back off by a 1/4 turn. Tightening tends to twist or wind up the spokes. Then, when you ride the bike for the first time, they untwist, causing that sqeaking or pinging sound and making the wheel to go out of true. The lubrication and overtightening and backing off will minimze this spoke twist.

3. Improve spoke line at the hub by pressing spokes firmly into the flange, so that they lay against it.

4. Improve spoke line at the nipple by grasping pairs of crossed spokes at the top and sqeezing firmly.

5. Stress releive the wheel by grasping pairs of parallel spokes at mid span and squeezing firmly. NOTE: Wheels that are overtensioned will warp during the stress relief process.

For those of you who desire more wheel theory or building /repair techniques, I would recommend purchasing a copy of The Bicycle Wheel, by Jobst Brandt. I have used it for over 20 twenty years and it's the best wheel book I know of.

However, improving spoke line is very simple. First, make sure you lubricate the rim/nipple interface, when installing new spokes. After tensioning the spokes, push the spoke into the flange with your thumb. Next grasp crossed pairs and squeeze them firmly to improve spoke line at the nipple. Finally, grasp parallel pairs of spokes at midspan and squeeze them firmly to reileve stress. NOTE: Overtensioned spokes will warp the rim during the stress reief process.

For those of you who desire a more in-depth discssion on wheel theory, I recommend The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. I have been using it for over 20 years. In my opinion, it is the best book available on bicycle wheel theory and building/repairing.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Keith on 5/15/2003 at 3:30:12 PM
I would add that even correctly built wheels, like many bike components, will simply wear out eventually. It may take a very long time -- 10,000 miles or more , but it will eventually happen. Brake pads wear the sides of the rim (this is easier to detect with modern, machined rims), and if ridden too long the sides will eventually crack or fail altogether. I wore out a set of rims this way -- I was lucky to catch it before it failed altogether. After a zillion cycles, cracks may also eventually occur at the ferrules or the hub flanges. It may seem remote, but it's worth a quick look now and then, especially for those of us riding older, used equipment.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Rob on 5/15/2003 at 5:17:17 PM
Wheelbuilding is something I seem to both love and hate at the same time. With high quality bits and pieces, it usually goes well...I usually get into trouble trying to tweak-up average wheels...rust issues, stuck nipples, rounded corners, cheap spokes...I would dispute, though, the notion that the top spokes support the wheel. In a properly 'tuned' wheel, all spokes always remain in tension, but, of course, the amount of tension will continually vary with the load. Spokes never lose tension except in extraordinary circumstances, which will likely also involve failure or near failure of a component. A good analogy is a pres-stressed concrete beam. Concrete, as most of us know, has terrific compressive strength, but very little tensile strength. However by stessing the concrete, it will remain compressed, as long as the beam's design capacity is not exceeded. Spokes, or course, work in the same, but opposite way. Not much compressive strength, but losts of tensile strength. As long as they are under tension, spokes act like little columns...I don't think I've overlooked anything...JUst my two cents worth... :)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Rob on 5/15/2003 at 5:51:46 PM
Just a few points to clarify..."Spokes never lose tension except in...", What meant to say was, "Spokes never lose ALL tension except in...". And, in my discussion on the concrete beam...the beam will act like a component in tension as long as it doesn't lose all of its "compression."...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by David on 5/15/2003 at 8:23:44 PM
I suggest that people actually READ Brandt's book. One of his first points is to explode the myth that the upper spokes support the vehicle; that it "hangs" from them. He asserts that the lower spokes are in compression, but are prevented from buckling.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Rob on 5/15/2003 at 9:32:02 PM
Well...with respect, I think the point is that while the bottom spokes are being compressed, this compression does not exceed the tension in the spoke, otherwise the spoke would collapse. Therefore the spoke remains in "net" tension and can take on the function of a column. These concepts are a bit difficult, as for most of us they are counter-intuitive, but that is only, of course, when taking a surface view. Nevertheless, I certainly remain open to other explanations...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Tom on 5/16/2003 at 2:16:52 AM
Dave and Rob are correct. I blew it! Big time! I didn't proof read my entry well enough before I submitted it. Yes, all spokes support the shape of the rim and carry some of the load. I meant to say that the load is carried PRIMARILY by the spokes at the top of the wheel. Static and dynamic loads reduce the tension in the bottom spokes, sometimes significantly. However, as they both pointed out, in a properly tensioned wheel the bottom spokes should not lose all of their tension. I believe that I pointed this out a couple times in my submission, but my original mis-statement probably negated the impact of any correct ones.

As Keith points out, a well built wheel can last to the point where the rim sidewalls wear through, or fatigue cracks develop. Unfortunately, such cases are a very small minority. The average wheel is not built properly and usually fails prematurely, due to improper tension or poor spoke line. And it gets worse when we start talking about vintage lighweights available at yard sales and flea markets. Most of those bikes already have a couple spokes with little or no tension, missing spokes, warped rims or buckled wheels.

The bottom line is that most wheels are not properly built. Awareness of the three primary causes of wheel failure will aid us in checking and maintaining wheels. Then we can have safe wheels that can carry the load.

In closing, I want to sincerely thank Dave and Rob for pointing out my error. It's gratifying to know that people like them are reading the submissions seriously. Keep up the good work guys! May all your wheels last until the rim walls start to fail!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by JONathan on 5/16/2003 at 7:06:46 AM
I think there is a sin/cos function due to the width of the hub, which seems rather critical (to me) since the only spokes I snap seem to be rear and usually when they are subject to severe torsion from the drive gear twisting the hub. Ever tried to pull a nail straight out of a board? It's hard. If, OTOH, you twist the nail to the side and pull, it pulls right out. Same idea with the tension on spokes, I believe. The lateral sheering action exerts forces that are radial in nature (relative to the axis of the spokes), so the little pin breaks and the spoke flies loose. Without doing the math, it seems to me that a wider hub would make a stronger spoked wheel. I am not professing, just making observations.
To me, the frame of reference can be different as long as it's consistent, in explaining spoke dynamics. Tom, you need not apologize to me, your article was very interesting and I think I understand your perspective. Thanks, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Wings on 5/16/2003 at 7:26:10 AM
Wow! You guys wrote a book! Thanks!
I always enjoy reading about wheel building and wheels. It is a fascinating topic and the math and engineering is always interesting!
Thanks guys!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Rob on 5/16/2003 at 5:36:51 PM
JONathan, I think what you are saying is a wider hub would effectively provide more lateral strength to the wheel and, therefore, act to reduce spoke breakage due to the shearing effects of drive train forces. However, this could only be achieved, I think, by putting more tension into the spoke so it could continue to perform its other non-drivetrain roles. Putting more tension into the spoke may offset the lateral strength benefit as the spoke would likely have to be thicker and heavier...it would be different from the front spokes...and we haven't even gotten into dishing issues...Bike technology, as with most practical items, has been a continual compromise: function, maintenance, appearance, product life, and marketing. As you say broken spokes tend to be much more of a rear wheel issue. I've tended to think it's simply that rear spokes get much more stress...torsion, weight and suspension issues. I've also encountered broken rear hub flanges, one or two holes, and as I recall it's been in conjunction with stainless steel spokes. When a wheel is overstressed, something will have to give...I think it's better that it be a spoke than the hub flange...Just a few thoughts on the subject...

     Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by John E on 5/16/2003 at 6:34:19 PM
Great thread, gang! The central reliability problem is that the asymmetric dish of the rear wheel has increased steadily over the years, as more cogs have been added to the freewheel/freehub. The only solution to this would be to increase the overlock dimension (spacing between the rear dropouts) by another 5-10mm or even to build an asymmetrical rear triangles (do bikes with Campag. 10-speed freehubs already do this?), with the right dropout farther from the bike's centerline than the left. Asymmetrically drilled rims help somewhat, of course.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by JONathan on 5/17/2003 at 2:56:00 AM
I see what you're saying, John E. Now, I have the explanation to why the low gera is always placed proximal to the centerline! Rob, what you say makes perfect sense as the tension reaches exponential levels (break-point limit) at 45 deg. Beyond that rediculous theoretical limit to hub width (and still use spokes) the tension would, I believe, exceed the draw strength of any known material used for spokes. Working backwards, I can now understand more clearly the importance of your conjecture. Thanks,...JONathan

   lern to type posted by JONathan on 5/17/2003 at 2:59:41 AM
Excuse me. I meant "gear". I can't blame the keyboard....JONathan

   RE:lern to type posted by Wings on 5/17/2003 at 6:24:31 AM
I have been thinking about the earlier comments (many were made) about the weight on the hub pushing down on the spokes between the ground and the hub. The comment was made that the stress is then placed on the spokes above the hub.

I don't think this was mentioned, and take it as one just thinking this through, with no expertise or solid evidence -- The spokes more or less parallel to the ground which I will call side spokes also have increased stress as weight is applied. In fact all the spokes are working to keep the rim in a perfect circle. If doward pressure causes some slack in the spokes below the hub the rim is trying to leave a circle. Therefore the side spokes (more or less parallel to the ground) tighten up as well as the spokes above the hub.

It would seem to me that slack in any part of the wheel causes instant stress (increased tension) in ALL the remaining spokes of the wheel.

Just thoughts on pondering the wheel!

   RE:RE:lern to type posted by Wings on 5/17/2003 at 6:30:02 AM
I just read again what Rob said. Rob, you loose me with an example of a pre-stressed concrete beam!!!! I relate to the wheel better and I think we are saying about the same thing. I see all the spokes responding to any stress that causes a spoke to be slack. Of course a great response can exceed the rims capability or the spokes capability and could end up in a broken spoke and/or rim.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bicycle Wheel Loads & Failure posted by Tom on 5/17/2003 at 6:59:05 PM
Wow, I created a monster with this thread! Maybe I should change my name to Frankenstein.

Wings' statement is correct. Maybe it would clear things up if we got rid of the terms top and bottom. Normal loading compresses the rim at, and about, the 6 o'clock position. The rest of the rim compensates by trying to expand outwards. This increases spoke tension in these areas. Spokes in the compression area decrease in tension and all others increase, except for the couple spokes in the transisiton area, which will have no change in tension. Thus all spokes support the rim shape and carry some of the load. The spokes at 6 o'clock just carry the least load. This all happens at a very small level. Brandt suggest you can detect the tension differential by plucking spokes. (Make sure you use the same spoke and revolve the wheel to different positions.) However, I found it much easier to use with a tensiometer.

JONathan's statement of wider flanges providing more lateral stiffness is correct. Of course, it would be at the expense of radial stiffness. Then we'd have to increase the tension to regain the radial stiffness. Think of spokes as guy wires supporting an antenna. If we widen the base of the support wires, the anntenna will withstand winds better. Increasing tension improves it further.

Assymetrical triangles and spoke holes have both been used over the years as dropout spacing increased from 120 - 130mm. There was a HI-Lo hub that was popular for a while. Pushing the rear triangles outwards much further (either symmetrically or assymetrically) will result in interference between the chain and cranks. That means wider crank spacing, longer chainstays or more radically curved chainstays, none of which are desirable. Consequently manufacturers have concentrated on narrower cogs and chains to preserve our eroding symmetry. Of course, these have less load bearing surface and wear faster. So they use more exotic and expensive materials. It's a vivious cycle. Frankly, I wouldn't be suprised to see an influx of raised chainstay bikes, like Nishiki's old Alien ATB.

There is no doubt that spokes fail predominantly on the drive side of the rear wheel. Most failures are fatigue related. Torsion, weight, assymetry and suspension issues are all contributing factors, but the biggest factor, in my opinion, is poor wheel build. Insufficient tension causes bigger swings in the cyclic loading and poor spoke line causes more flexing. I'm a stong, 185 lb rider, but I don't break spokes very often. In fact, I can't remember the last time I broke one. But I have replaced 3 rims, in the past 30 years, due to fatigue cracks. A properly built and maintained wheel will give trouble free performance, for a long time. Just my 2c's.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Huret Alvit posted by: Brian L. on 5/15/2003 at 2:55:32 PM
I recently built up a late 60's (guess) vintage Claud Butler, all 531. No model I.D., stamped d.o.s and front light bracket brazed on to right fork. My question concerns the drivetrain, which is French: Huret Alvit f & r with Cyclotouriste cranks. Front shifting is crisp with a little trimming and rear is sensitive, but that's part of the charm.

Everything seems to be adjusted properly, but it refuses to drop into the small cog on a narrow-6 freewheel without lots of fuss and then sometimes at all. Am I asking too much of this derailleur? Freewheel is a wide spread 13-28, but range doesn't seem to be a problem. Running 48/36 in front. Is the return spring on this model too weak? I have a similarly set up Raleigh Grand Sport with a Duopar rear and it shifts crackerjack.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Huret Alvit posted by Tom on 5/15/2003 at 3:48:33 PM
Brian, nice bike! An old riding buddy used to have one of those, probably the same vintage!

Regarding the derailleur, there are several possibilities.

1. The travel screws are not adjusted properly. If I recall correctly, there is a set screw on the front derailleur body. Turning this counterclockwise allows the parallelogram linkage to compress further and may solve your problem.

2. The Allvit body and parallelogram are in very tight quarters. There may simply be a large build-up of gunk inside the body, that prevents full compression of the parallelogram.

3. The derailleur body, cage or hanger may be bent. Check to see if both pulleys line up with the cogs. If not, something is bent. Straightening the offending part, or bending everything outwards a little bit, may solve the problem.

4. Spring tension may be insufficient, as you suggest. If this is so, you should be able to manually compress the paralleogram and make it shift into the small cog. I remember that the Allvit has stops for adjusting cage tension, but I don't recall if there is adjustment for parallelogram return tension. If not, placing a small tube over the ends of the spring will compress it and increase the tension. You could also slip a small thickness of metal under the spring end, but I don't recall if there is room in the Allvit. Of course, as a last resort, you can increase tension by removing the spring and spreading it.

5. Maybe the Allvit just can't handle the six speed gearing. The bike is from the 5 speed freewheel era and narrow sixes are slightly wider than fives. You may be able to remove a washer (or use a smaller spacer) on the the freewheel side of the axle, if there is sufficient clearance between the small cog and dropout. This will move the derailleur body closer to the small cog and decrease the required cage travel.

      Huret Allvit rear derailleur posted by John E on 5/15/2003 at 4:17:32 PM
"5. Maybe the Allvit just can't handle the six speed gearing. The bike is from the 5 speed freewheel era and narrow sixes are slightly wider than fives."

I had no trouble shifting a narrow-width 6-speed 14-28 freewheel on my Varsity, although I did have to re-mill the stop on the TwinStik, to increase its takeup range. After I substituted my SunTour downtube levers for the TwinStiks, the Huret Allvit worked beautifully.

If you still cannot shift into the smallest cog after letting the high gear adjustment screw (the one facing outward from the front face of the body of the Allvit) out all the way, you may want to try adding a washer to the right side of the axle, to push the freewheel away from the dropout. Also, lose the spoke protector, if you have one, as this will give you another couple of mm of clearance between the freewheel and the frame.

   Huret Allvit rear derailleur posted by John E on 5/15/2003 at 4:35:00 PM
Another thought: My 1962 Bianchi had a first-generation Allvit. When the return spring began to get tired, I sometimes resorted to giving the shift cable an abrupt tug-and-snap to effect a 4-5 shift. The sudden release of the cable tension provides much more shift momentum than a standard smoothly executed movement of the shift lever.

   RE:Huret Allvit rear derailleur posted by Dave on 5/15/2003 at 5:52:55 PM
I have noticed on some "Schwinn Approved" Allvits that they do require some finess to reach the 28 tooth cogs. I suspect this has something to do with the small jockey wheel cages.

   RE:RE:Huret Allvit rear derailleur posted by Brian L. on 5/15/2003 at 6:14:17 PM
Thanks for the tips. The stops are definitely set correctly and the pulleys are in proper alignment. I will try the washer trick and see if that helps, but the spread is just a might tight as it is. I can compress the parallelagram manually. The derailleur is almost pristine. I got the set from Richard (a regular reader and Seattle-area local) in trade. I suspect that it's inadequate spring tension. Anyone have a Duopar that they would like to swap for?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Huret Alvit posted by Tom on 5/15/2003 at 11:35:46 PM
Sorry, John E is correct. It's add a spacer, not remove one. Thxs John E. Sometimes, I type faster than I think!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Huret Alvit posted by Corey on 5/16/2003 at 7:02:03 AM
Hey Brian,

Does the shift cable move freely through the rear housing?
Is the housing old, or is the cable kinked anywhere along it's length or near the derailleur's pinch bolt? These problems can also prevent the derailleur from moving all the way outward in it's travel. Especially if it has the older, weaker spring.

Good Luck!


FOR SALE:   need to sell posted by: rickey on 5/14/2003 at 2:33:40 PM
centurion ironman dave scott signature 58cm red & silver hasent ben riden much looks new 350.00 + s&h 20.00 also a cannondale mtb with girvin front end 250.00 + S&H 20.00 SHIP ANYWHERE IN U.S.can send photo's both have new tires & tubes 334-756-7561 leave a message if not open if interested i have lots of old bikes need to sell

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vive la France... posted by: David on 5/14/2003 at 12:19:34 AM
NMAs... Nice French bikes on Ebay...

Beautiful Follis

Moto le Champ

and the piece de resistance... a Herse tandem!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vive la France... posted by Wings on 5/15/2003 at 5:30:45 AM
I enjoyed the pictures of the tandem! Great!

I have always wondered how much weight a bicycle wheel will take, especially a tandem with the added weight. It seems that the rear wheel would be the one with the greatest weight load with the way the riders are positioned. Anybody have any information on that?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vive la France... posted by Keith on 5/15/2003 at 1:31:36 PM
I don't have the information you seek, but it's worth noting that specialty tandem wheels usually have 40 or 48 spokes, some dedicated tandem hubs have large solid flanges, and that Phil Wood hubs, known for being especially strong, are the preferred hubs for tandems. On the other hand, I recall Steven once remarked something to the effect that in his opinion such high spoke counts are unnecessary, as he traversed the U.S. on a tandem on wheels he built himself with a lower spoke count (32?). Some contemporary low spoke count (20-28) specialty wheels often have a rider weight limit of about 180 pounds. A friend recently remarked that today's bikes are engineered to be used by a 250 pound rider, but I don't know his source. I believe the recommended weight limit for new Campy parts in general is 180 about pounds.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vive la France... posted by Dave on 5/15/2003 at 2:33:29 PM
I have a Campy Proton front wheel, a 20 spoke radial-pattern wheel that I bought to race with but ended up on my commuter bike.I weigh 220 lbs and had no trouble until I wiped out on a invitational ride, but I would've destroyed any type of rim since all my weight ended up on the wheel,(saving me from serious injury).Anyone have a 20 spoke rim for sale?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vive la France... posted by Keith on 5/15/2003 at 3:14:02 PM
I believe your good experience, Dave. The explanation on the Campy official site is essentially that weight is a factor along with road conditions and the type of use (duh). It seems to me setting the limit at 80 kg was likely due to the CYA mentality of a corporate lawyer, not an engineer. That way, if a hub or rim fails with a bigger rider, Campy can say, "look, we told you not to use it." I suppose that any rider using lightweight equipment needs to inspect it regularly. With wheels it's simply a matter of looking for signs of hairline cracks on the hub flanges and rims.