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Archived: Vintage Lightweights







AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by: Kevin K on 8/17/2003 at 1:36:23 PM
Hi all. Just looking for personal taste and opinion here. When looking at say a late 60's early 70's frame, how does one tell if it is of high quality. Say we have a bare steel frame. No I.D.. No paint. Nothing. Forged dropouts of course both front and rear. What else defines a frame of high build standard? Also, if updating a vintage frame what of adding water bottle bosses? Thanks for the input. Kevin K


   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by Tom on 8/17/2003 at 2:41:00 PM
Re-inforcing tangs on the inside of the fork blades and chainstay and brake bridges are a pretty good indicator. If there are splines in the bottom of the steering tube, it is a positive indicator of Columbus tubing.

Mitering of the tubes inside the bottom bracket is also the sign of a good builder. Mitering is where the ends of the tubes are profiled with a circular cut so that it matches the contour of the inside of the botom bracket. This provides maximum surface area for brazing and consequently better strength and durability. Production bikes during this period generally have the tube lopped off with a square cut. This is readily apparent if you look inside a BB shell.

Harder to discern, facing of the bottom bracket shell and head tube lugs, is also a good indicator. Facing is where the builder resurfaces the bootm bracket and headset mounting points, to ensure the cups are square and the bearings will be aligned operate with minimum friction. Most builders face a frame, but good builders generally do it after painting. On an unpainted frame this would be hard to tell.

If the frame is unpainted, the presence of silver brazing, as opposed to brass brazing is usually a very good indicator of a fine frame. For this time period, a fillet brazed frame is also a good indicator.

Seat post size can also be used. Most English bikes with butted tubing during his period used 27.0 or 27.2mm post. French bikes preferred 26.4 or 26.6. Italians used 26.8 to 27.2mm. Japanese makes tended to used 26.4 to 27.0mm. Plain gauge quality tubes or common tubing would utilize smaller posts.

On the more subjective side, there is thinning of the lugs, and skill with filing, paint, pinstriping and decal application. However, these cosmetic indicators must be taken with a grain of salt. Even with reknowned builders, they were pushing hard to get things out quickly during the 70's boom and quality often suffered. Conversely, even some of the very cheap Italian bikes during this period have stunning cosmetics, with lots of chrome, pinstriping and intricate paint jobs.

Al the above indicators all valid for the late60's and early 70's period. However, as manufacturing technigues improved and became most cost efficient, these characteristics slowly started to filter down the price chain.

I would not add the bottle bosses. The moment you do that, you destroy the value for collectors. It costs you money to have it done, yet destroys the resale value. If your worried about clamps marking the paint or handlebars, go with a water bottle holder that mounts to the seat rails. It's not era correrct, but marks on the seat rails would not dereciate the value as much as frame or handlebar marring.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by Kevin K on 8/17/2003 at 5:26:05 PM
Hi. My concerns would be for say adding braze ons or even removing them and using a clamp to secure shifters, brake cables and so on. Kevin

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by JONathan on 8/17/2003 at 6:58:23 PM
Thanks, Tom. That "facing" of headtube and BB for bearing seating to be parallel across the load is definitely a quality trait. Thanks for that information.
Speaking of quality. I find that well made bikes have a distinct nature in a very subjective "measure" (oxymoron?) of appearance. A short coast with a few turns of the forks tells me a lot about the quality.
Even a size mismatch is not enough to preclude those "subjective" attributes of ride dynamics as a whole. For this, I refer to the UO-8 as a fine example of how really subtle this can be. A lot of markers are absent, yet they
did it justice. One needs to ride, and to ride a lot of bikes for a long time, to really establish the validity of this apparent paradox. Was it luck...I presume so, or was it savvy design testing and evaluation be expert riders?
That is not to say the converse "paradox" exists. It may. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I "work backwards" in determining quality of a bike, and I'm referring only to "low" to "mid" level rides (see post on def.). That the dynamics are an important evaluative tool, is foremost in my list of check-offs.
Speaking of dynamics...I'd love to ride a Dursley Pedersen, 1900, with cantilever frame. I saw one at a museum exhibition this weekend. That bike looks transcendental!...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by Titlist on 8/18/2003 at 4:25:46 AM
cantilever frame. Wrote JONathan

Do you really, think, your going to leave us all hanging by just saying this? Maybe it is one more thing to research.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by JONathan on 8/18/2003 at 6:46:07 AM
This bike looked superficially like a mixte frame with the small diameter tubes...lots of 'em, too. I think about 14 tubes and 21 triagles with 57 connections! The seat is a "hammock" suspended across the headtube and rear support. The design reminds me of a railroad suspension bridge! Try this web page, as I was so enthralled that I looked up some info. You really need to see the bike in person, as the geometry is so complex. The "forks" are really four triangles with a headtube bearing and a pivot bolt. Quite strong...stronger than a regular fork. Weight of the bike? 12 pounds...payload...90 Kgs! How about a 1900 TDF entry? Why did the design fad into the background, only to have a cult-like following? This bike is for real. We also saw a "Folder" that is the oldest in the world (maybe) 1896, Danbury, Conn.
Her's the site on the Dursley-Pedersen:http://www.bigwoodm.freeserve.co.uk/dursley.htm
Enjoy, I'm incredulous. JONathan

   †WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by John E on 8/18/2003 at 2:38:55 PM
To play this game properly, one has to apply vintage-specific standards. The black 1961 Olmo on eBay is clearly high-end, despite the cottered steel Magistroni cranks. The 1960 Capo Modell Campagnolo 30th anniversary edition had similar Italian (Agrati) cottered steel cranks and a full Reynolds 531 tubeset with incredibly ornate hand-cut, silver-soldered lugwork, but the dropouts were stamped (albeit ornate), rather than forged.

Peugeot's workmanship definitely fell off during the 1970s; my early 1970s UO-8 looks much better than my 1980 PKN-10. I have converted two UO-8s to aluminum cranks and rims and Japanese derailleurs, and I am still impressed by how well they ride for a budget-priced frame without a fancy frame tube pedigree.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by Tom on 8/20/2003 at 2:15:46 AM
JONothan, thank-you for bring the Dursley-Pederson bicyle to our attention. It is a truly wonderful creation and it is not difficult to envision how light, stiff and efficient this design would be. The bottom bracket stiffness, in particular, should be exemplary.

Regarding it's demise, I would think that it all came down to economics. The design would be very expensive to produce relative to a double diamond frame and fork. Most of the cost of producing a frame is tied up in labour and procesing costs, as opposed to material. With the Pederson, you have twice as many tubes to cut and miter, and twice as many joints to braze. Many would argue that the small diameter tubes would offset most of this cost, but that is not true. Again, most of the cost in the tubing is in the piercing, rolling, drawing and heat treatment processes, not the material itself. Thus, a small diameter tube costs almost as much as a large diameter tube and in the case of the Dursley-Pederson, material costs would therefore be higher than a normal frame, by virtue of the number of tubes.

John E., I agree that standards are era specific. That is why I made the disclaimer in my original response that my criteria were applicable to late60s/early 70s frames. However, I do find it curious that your 1960 Capo does not utilize forged dropouts. Campagnolo had introduced its forged dropouts almost 10 years earlier and they were in wide use by 1960, particularly on Reynolds 531DB and Columbus frames. I have even seen several 2nd tier frasmesets (i.e Falk tubing) from this period that used Campagnolo dropouts. This is not to imply that the Capo is not a fine frameset. From the pictures that I have seen, I would love to own one myself. Perhaps your Capo is "the exception that proves the rule".

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††WHAT MAKES FOR A CLASSIER BIKE posted by JONathan on 8/20/2003 at 5:27:00 AM
Your reasoning about the D-P may well explain so many other fade aways. However, with the robotics potential of modern manufacturing, the prospect of seeing the design in production doesn't seem unreasonable; unlike the situation with Schwinn's "flash-welded" bikes. If a home-build is feasible, which seems to be the case, then a factory
installation couldn't be hard to implement with a well thought business model. The marketing would self-generate, IMHO. The bike looks so cool, like a "chopper". What I especially like about the design development was the effort by the inventor to focus on pure physics. THe forks, for example, are strogest where strength is most needed; in contrast to my bikes' where the forks are weakest where they need to be strongest! Stuff like that. The more I study it, the greater my enthusiasm for what he created.
John E.'s Capo with stamped dropouts is an interesting enigma in design selection. Maybe the brazing "hot-spots" were reduced by using the stamped steel, especially if the stays are narrow taper, thin-wall. Just a thought. The builder of the Capos that I've seen (pictures only, unfortunately for me) which I would guess to be Otto, must have had a sound reason. What if the stamped dropouts wre used to prevent damage to the stays? I would think a forged dropout could break through a stay before it reached the yield point, whereas a stamped steel dropout will bend a bit, thus serving to cushion the impact forces that could otherwise damage the frame. Just a thought....JONathan
Note: A ride is worth a bundle of stoops and bends. The paint work is splendid on your Capo. They really know their craft. It looks awesome.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††value? posted by: Ted O on 8/17/2003 at 2:08:47 AM
Any one ever hear of a Pantera Championne du monde? Its a ten speed with Campanola derailers Altenburger brake levers,Balilla brake calipers,Shurmann wheels & neck,Grand Prix seat & union pedals. What kind of value might it have?







AGE / VALUE:†††Schwinn Varsity posted by: Don on 8/16/2003 at 11:02:47 PM
I came across 2 red schwinn varsitys from garage sales and i was woundering if anyone could tell me what they are worth, i did some reseach on em and one is a 1975 w/fenders and lights , the other is a 1977 with working head light. if anyone could help me with a value range i would be thankfull. Don


   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Schwinn Varsity posted by JONathan on 8/17/2003 at 2:55:47 AM
Nice find! I have a red '77 Varsity and a '77 Le Tour II. The former might be worth more, much to my disbelief. The Le Tour II rides like a LW, whereas the Varsity is definitely for getting you in shape! Smooth on blacktop. I think the Chicago-built origin, historic nature and the unique manufacturing methods are what boosts the Varsity to greater collectibility, just my own personal opinion. I snap up Varsities because they are getting rarer around here and they are definitely cool bikes.
The Le Tour II is a "better" bike, IMHO, with it's fine Japanese construction and componentry, but hang on to those Varsities. Just my 2 c's....JONathan
My two Varsities ('68 and '77) were combined total of $13 US to secure. If someone offered me $100 for one, I'd have to think hard!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Schwinn Varsity posted by Don on 8/17/2003 at 4:27:45 PM
thank you. They are chicago made bikes. they are a good bike to get in shape lol.






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Threads on Schwinn Normandy Luxe Hub posted by: Brent on 8/16/2003 at 2:31:53 PM
I recently purchased a 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, which I ride nearly every day. (My modern bike with STI, 24 speeeds, etc. just hangs in the garage.) The Sports Tourer has Schwinn Approved Normandy Luxe Hubs, with a 14-34 freewheel in back. Does anyone know if this hub requires a French Thread freewheel? I'd like to put on a narrower range Suntour Ultra 6.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Threads on Schwinn Normandy Luxe Hub posted by Gralyn on 8/16/2003 at 3:40:40 PM
I bet if the freewheel was Japanese-you could put a more modern (probably from the 80s) narrow 6-speed freewheel. But, I'm not familiar with the old Schwinns.
For me.....a 14-34 range is great! Makes those hills a little easier.
For me though, a modern 24sp, STI....I would probably ride it most every day....I would probably be just the opposite.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Threads on Schwinn Normandy Luxe Hub posted by sam on 8/16/2003 at 4:14:59 PM
Not sure if this helps but I used a Schwinn approved normandy hub on a project.The cluster/free wheel was "made in Japan".I re-installed the original freewheel so I have no idea of the type of threads used.

   Threads on Schwinn Normandy Luxe Hub posted by John E on 8/16/2003 at 4:24:16 PM
I have owned only one French-threaded hub and freewheel, which came with a Peugeot. Since French-threaded hubs and exceedingly rare in the U.S., it is extremely improbable that you have one.

I know what you mean about the 5-speed 14-34 (the original gearing on my Nishiki Competition was 14-18-22-27-34) -- the jumps between ratios are HUGE. An "ultra-spaced" 6-speed freewheel, even a 14-16-19-22-26-32, would give you almost as much overall spread, but much more user-friendly steps in the critical middle and upper ranges. Mathematically, this would work very well with a 50-46, 52-48, or comparable half-step in front, or try something like a 52-42 / 14-16-18-21-24-28 or 52-40 / 14-17-20-24-28-32 1.5-step or "Alpine" progression.

I have a 120mm Normandy Luxe Competition rear hub on my Peugeot UO-8, and I replaced the original Atom 5-speed freewheel with a SunTour 13-15-17-20-23-26 ultra-6. With 45-42 half-step Sugino chainrings, I get a nicely-spaced range of ratios from 43.6 to 93.5 gear-inches.

   RE:Threads on Schwinn Normandy Luxe Hub posted by Brent on 8/16/2003 at 5:40:29 PM
The Sports Tourer has a 54 and 36 chainrings in front. It came with a 14-34 freewheel. Schwinn claimed that it was the widest gear range of any production bike in 1971. The front shifting is very good and it gives a nice high range and low range. I have an Ultra 6 on another wheel that I've been using on the Sports tourer. It's 14-16-18-21-24-30. I get great range without double shifting. The 36 tooth front chain rings give me gear inches 32, 40, 46, 54, 61 then the 54 inch front chain ring gives me 61, 69, 81, 91, 104. I don't use the large large or small small cross chained combinations. I think that this is how ten speeds should be set up to minimize double shifting and hunting for the right gear.

   RE:RE:Threads on Schwinn Normandy Luxe Hub posted by JONathan on 8/16/2003 at 7:19:39 PM
I have not encountered any thread problems in the freewheels on bikes built in the late '60's on, as long as the bikes were "export" versions of low-to-mid level quality. I recently removed a French freewheel off a UO-8 with a tool that I made out of an impact socket out of necessity. I spun a new SunRace freewheel (Japanese) onto the Normandy hub. Good luck getting the old freewheel off if it has two slots. I ruined a few, before I made and started using my custum tool.
I think my next refit will be like what you described, John E. That is like a 3-speed range (albeit slightly lower) with lots of intermediates. Excellent idea. Thanks for posting....JONathan

   SCHWINN "Sports Tourer", 1980 posted by JONathan on 8/16/2003 at 7:30:29 PM
I have a question about the steel used in a 1980 "Sports Tourer". The bike has a decal that states "Schwinn; Extra-Lite Tubes". My question? Is that Chrome-Moly steel like "4130" used in the earlier models. I suspect it's gas-pipe, based on the date. Giant built the frames with lugs. No fillet-brazing, like on my 1971 "Super Sport". THe bike is lighter than the Super Sport, but that may be due to the alloy cranks. It is a very nice commute bike type. Thanks, JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Threads on Schwinn Normandy Luxe Hub posted by Brent on 8/17/2003 at 12:14:21 AM
The Suntour Ulta 6 freewheel did fit on the Schwinn Normandy hub. Thanks for the help and information. I didn't want to try to make the switch and then have an unpleasant surprise.

   RE: Later Sports Tourer posted by Eric Amlie on 8/17/2003 at 4:40:56 AM
Jonathan, your suspicions are correct. The later, lugged frame Sports Tourer frames were made from 1020 "gaspipe" steel.

   RE:RE: Later Sports Tourer posted by JONathan on 8/17/2003 at 5:20:06 AM
Thanks, Eric. The workmanship is worthy of 4130 Chro-Mo, but they decided to go with "10-20" and ride (so to speak) on the Sports Tourer reputation for high quality.
Despite the regular steel, Giant built a beautiful bike. I am impressed by the lug brazing...compared to my late '70's Raleighs, for example....How much more would 4130 have cost Schwinn?
Maybe $10? Oh, well. That's history. Thanks for that info....JONathan
BTW, I think it's "Xtra-Lite"...is that misleading?






AGE / VALUE:†††License part 2 posted by: sam on 8/15/2003 at 9:16:07 PM
In Texas you are required to give an officer a photo I.D. if asked.This can be your (auto)drivers license---bad idea.Or you can go to the Dept.Of Public Safty and get a Non-operator photo I.D. to carry.Other states may offer the same type of I.D. Check where you get your drivers license renewed---sam


   ††License part 2 posted by John E on 8/15/2003 at 10:01:20 PM
Since the California DMV issues both non-operator photo ID cards and driver's licenses, this will not work there. I still like my passport idea.






AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh Professional Like Frame MYSTERY! posted by: Mike. on 8/15/2003 at 7:34:36 PM
Can anyone tell me what I have?

Well a week or so ago I asked a question about a Raleigh frame - well I am a sucker for Raleighs so I bought this one I had seen. Finally got it home today and this is a real mystery to me!

The frame has serial number: WD4000792 meaning that this frame was produced in the 4th fortnight of 1984 at the Worksop factory. The lugs are almost EXACTLY like the 1977 Raleigh Professional with window cutouts. The tubing is 531 competition double butted with 531 forks. Frame is predominantly black with gold head tube, gold trim around each lug and cutouts, 3 gold bands on seat tube middle one with "Raleigh Lightweight Division - Handbuilt In England".

Down tube has "Raleigh" (script letters) in gold with thin pinstripe around letters. There is also a small gold oval decal which says "Raleigh Lightweight Frameset" bottom 2/3rds of fork chrome and same with stays. Drop outs are SUN TOUR GS at front and GS III at rear.

Has braze on brake cable guides on top tube, and water bottle attach but no braze ons for shifters.

There was some writing on the top tube which is barely legible - I can definitly read "Tour" and I think the first word is "Sun". So did Raleigh build a Sun Tour bike with the 531c db tubing? This is one nice frame and I think the craftsmanship is better than my Carlton Pro. Alas this frame is a 24" and is too big for me so I will probably have to sell. Let me know what you think.

Mike


   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh Professional Like Frame MYSTERY! posted by Titlist on 8/15/2003 at 10:59:13 PM
Humbly submitting my contribution here,

Any chance, that it could read "Super Tourer" ?

Used 531, and as opposed to this shot, of a '76 picture, "http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1976/pages/08-76-super-tourer.html " , styles did come out, with drop (ram horned) handlebars.

Long Wheelbase to be a Touring cycle? Must be.

I am only puzzled, about the colors, would have to hunt down the colors. The whole Raleigh catalog is on the net, for some years, I would have to hunt it down. On the spur of the moment though, this is the make the bike seems close to.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh Professional Like Frame MYSTERY! posted by Titlist on 8/15/2003 at 11:04:14 PM
also, I eventually, placed downtube shifters on my Super Tourer, replacing the indexed shifters on the handlebars, no brazeons, true for the downtube shifters, but a place to put the shifters, with a band, is pretty clear on that down tube. Maybe I can get the # off this bicycle, this weekend. Right now, it is offsite from here.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh Professional Like Frame MYSTERY! posted by Mike on 8/15/2003 at 11:51:43 PM
Titlist,

It definitely says "Tour" and the first word is too short to be Super. I am pretty sure it is "Sun". Also has a Campagnolo headset although I know that does not tell one too much. I have scoured the net as well as ebay and so far come up with nothing. I would be interested to hear what your serial number is to compare. I can send a jpeg to anyone interested. - Mike.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh Professional Like Frame MYSTERY! posted by Gralyn on 8/16/2003 at 3:46:33 PM
I picked-up an old Raleigh yesterday. The price was right - and thinking I could always use the parts - I got it. The rear rim was Rigida Chrome (probably original) - but the front was Araya Chrome (probably not original). All the other equipment appeared to be original. Unfortunately, someone had taken a spray can to it. But, they had fortunately masked the head tube and the seat tube decal. The, rest, however....model, frame sticker, etc. were gone. It looks like maybe it was a lighter blue underneath - and black on the decal and on the head tube. It will be interesting to figure out exactly what it is. From the weight and components...my guess is a Record, or older Grand Prix.






AGE / VALUE:†††power outage posted by: luke on 8/14/2003 at 9:32:18 PM
all i,d like to say is my heart goes out to the folks of
the ''blackout'' in new york,detroit,and several city,s
that happened today.happening now.!!!
even the bicycle would be a challenge to get home.
l.pate


   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††power outage posted by Titlist on 8/15/2003 at 3:07:54 AM
I second that, especially, since, so many of the kind folks that converse here, it seems are from affected areas. My wishes for the best. And to all of the boards here.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††power outage posted by Oscar on 8/15/2003 at 12:40:13 PM
Except that ebay bidding competition is down. Easy pickings for the brighter side of the country.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††power outage posted by Titlist on 8/15/2003 at 1:47:34 PM
I am sure, the current act of nature would disallow at the seller's option, many of the auctions, making them null and void. I am all for that; unscrupulous people can take advantage of a situation. Can you imagine, some people set up their options, with opening bids of .99 cents.

   power outage posted by John E on 8/15/2003 at 3:21:04 PM
This is the third (fourth?) time this has happened on roughly this scale, on this particular grid. Someone is asleep at the switch (so to speak). This is only one example of our crumbling, overloaded American infrastructure. Other North American power grids (e.g., California, during the infamous contrived generating capacity shortfall) are able to shed loads selectively, to protect the grid from this sort of domino effect.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††power outage posted by Rob on 8/15/2003 at 5:38:02 PM
I guess all of this is off topic...at the risk of sticking my foot in my mouth, I think I'll wade in here...I work for one of the large CDN power companies, albeit on the business side, not the technical side, but I'll go out on a limb and postulate that the root cause (not necessarily the immediate triggering event) of this problem will relate to the transmission system not the power plants, and that because of the summer weather the system may have been pushed a bit more than usual...probably something that that is done fairly regularly...a calculated risk which is generally cost effective, but this time it didn't work. Is the cure worse than the bite? Well,it'll take a while to work that out...Once the big fossil fuel plants that are so prevalent back east start to shut down they cannot instantly be fired back up again...it takes a bit of time. Generally the big eastern utilities try to use these plants for supplying base load...that is, the lowest level of continuous demand, and more flexible power sources, such as hydro-electric (which has an almost 'off-on' type of availability) to supply peaking power. It's significant to me that Quebec which is a big supplier of hydro-electric power into the eastern seaboard has not been affected by this, although Ontario which has a power supply system more like the northeastern states is as badly affected as New York. The grid is actually pretty darn good and has been continuously improving over the years, despite the notable recent problems in California and with Enron, and some of the unwise foreign ventures some of the utilities have gotten into...but it does have to be regulated to some degree, particularly the transmission system...My 2 cents worth, and I have no authority to say any of this, other than my general exposure to these issues...I hope I won't have to eat my words later....

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††power outage posted by Ron on 8/16/2003 at 12:18:38 PM
I also work for one of the large power companies, in nuclear generation. Rob is on the right track. Nuclear generating plants are also base loaded, and there were several nuclear plants that went off line when the blackout hit. Just like when your computer locks up and you have to do a system shutdown, then reboot from scratch, both fossil and nuclear plants must be shutdown and stabilized, then brought back on line slowly and methodically. This could take 24-48 hours. Nuclear plants must have a stable grid for their own equipment before they can begin the restart process. Most of the plants probably tripped due to load rejection. That means they had no place to send the power, with the grid off.
When the electric industry was tighly regulated, utilities were required to have reserve capacity, and that was figured into the rate base. As deregulation has swept the nation, it doesn't pay to have capacity that you can't sell, so the utilities operate with a very thin reserve, both in generation and in transmission. Yes, they do have a load shedding scheme, but sometimes there a disturbances that can have far reaching effects. If one section of the grid trips, the next one may overload as it trys to pick up the slack. If many sections are already at peak load, then it can have a domino effect. The same thing can happen to power plants when one goes off line.






AGE / VALUE:†††Some great looking Bikes posted by: Mike Slater on 8/14/2003 at 7:39:25 PM
Check out this link - these are some beautiful Japanese bikes with some beautiful details like a place to hold 2 extra spokes that doubles as a chain protector.

http://members.aol.com/SatoruMas/mybike/mybike.html







AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by: Chris on 8/14/2003 at 7:06:53 PM
The womans bike has front/rear 26x1 3/8 in. tires , 2pc. crank, calliper brakes, 3 speed internal,model# sticker 236.472750. Mans bike has front/rear 26x1 3/8 in. tires,calliper brakes, single piece crank, 3 speed internal, number on rear left fork 502412610515147. Both have bolt on seat post clamps and have bolt on kickstands. the number on mans bike may be a little off , checked neck and crank case for # but didnt see any. If anyone can help email me . Thank You


   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by chris on 8/16/2003 at 6:29:23 PM
if anyone can give me a date or value i would apprciate it.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by JONathan on 8/16/2003 at 7:53:09 PM
Sears sold a lot of different makes. If they are 3-speeds, check the rear hub for a two-digit number that is the year of production for the hub (assuming it's Sturmey-Archer), which, if it is the original hub (likely) then you have a good guess as to the date of the bike. I had 3 Sears "made in Austria" 3-speeds. Two were "JC Higgins" and one "Free Spirit". Check the chainguard and the badge on the headtube. See if it indicates a place of origin.
The one-piece crank? That is interesting. Check the brakes. Are they Weinmann side-pulls, Dia-Compe or steel "generic" side-pulls? If they are Austrian (mid-'60's or before), they are remarkably good riding bikes. Compared to new bikes at about $100 US, those Austrian made Sears bikes would be a smart choice at that price, even if they are used...not beat, but the normal wear plus dormancy issues "used". They'll astound the rider with how sweet they run....I'm looking for a JC Higgins 3-speed (Austrian made), for nostalgia purposes....They are not easy to spot out here on the Ca. coast. Good luck...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by chris on 8/16/2003 at 9:26:43 PM
well, the mans bike had exel Raceur and Grand prix sidepulls, the girls had arai. Gold side pulls. i looked at the hubs and they boh are made the same, they have three symbols that look like a 3.3.3. They are great bikes to ride , i couldnt find any place of origin.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by chris on 8/16/2003 at 9:42:00 PM
the rear hubs say Three Speed Hub F and
U.S.A. PAT.3021728 on both bike hubs

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by chris on 8/16/2003 at 9:42:20 PM
the rear hubs say Three Speed Hub F and
U.S.A. PAT.3021728 on both bike hubs

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by JONathan on 8/17/2003 at 2:22:38 AM
The "3 3 3" is the Shimano 3 speed, which is Japanese. I have an American Eagle 3 speed with a "3 3 3" rear hub. If the rear dropouts and front forkends are brazed, I'd guess Japanese. If they are "crimped" in place by the tubing, then I would guess a Huffy/Murray type. The American Eagle handles solid, but I wouldn't choose it over the Austrian (Steyr-Daimler-Puch) Sears 3 speeds. Just my 2 cents, JONathan
BTW, they probably are decent rides. How do they ride? That would be my first evaluation of quality and also to establish a base for value.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by Chris on 8/17/2003 at 4:23:40 PM
The forks and the dropouts are crimped, the bikes ride great , they ride real smoothly and it shifts through all 3 speeds. I like them for their comfort and how they ride.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by JONathan on 8/17/2003 at 11:20:17 PM
Right! That's the secret. I have discovered that the concept of "ride quality" is not universally applied. Another way to state it: You can't tell another person what THEY like. As my primary working hypothesis in fixing up a bike for someone else, the success rate goes very high. Quite often, I'm totally surprised by the selection. This is after all the size factors are resolved, which are most critical. I have found exceptions (one nephew as one) where it's a non-issue. He can wreck a bike just by looking at it. The only one that's survived is a Schwinn "Sidewinder" 5-speed. As long as it runs, he's happy. Usually, people are more discerning of how the ride feels, and I need to work harder with T&E methods to find a bike that'll workout...all the while, keeping a careful lid on any opinions that I may have about the selections. The two bikes you picked up are great examples of how "quality" can be undefined.
You like 'em and that's all that counts. I agree with your results. The Shimano "3 3 3" seems a lot like a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed except I like the cam-lever linkage at the axle end. They work real smooth. I think it's a better design, IMHO. Happy rides!...JONathan

   :RE:AGE / VALUE:†††mens and Womans sears &roebuck co. bicycles posted by Chris on 8/18/2003 at 4:08:54 AM
thanks for all ur help and gl on finding some of ur own bikes .






VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Technical Questions posted by: Mark C. on 8/14/2003 at 4:44:18 PM
I was wondering if anyone has ever tried to convert a nutted axle to a QR type? I was just pondering it and thought the conversion would work. I will be trying it as soon as I have some free time but if anyone has tried this I would be very interested. I have a QR hub on a bent rim and a nutted axle on a good rim so I fiqure it would be easier to swap axles than rims. Also, is it possible to remove a flat spot from an alloy rim? My new le tour has flat spots on both rims. Wobbles I can true out but I've never had a flat spot before. Thanks!


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Technical Questions posted by Tom on 8/14/2003 at 5:45:21 PM
Iím not too conversant about Schwinns, as we donít see many up here, in Canada. There are over a dozen different thread standards for axles, so without knowing the thread standard, itís hard to say how easy it will be. It would be a lot easier to swap complete wheels than convert the axles. However, I have swapped out solid axles for hollow versions on several bikes and can warn you of the various pitfalls and what you need to know. The process is the same for all brands of hubs, front, or rear.

AXLE THREAD: Ideally, you want to use your old cones and hardware on a new, hollow axle. This may, or may not be possible. Most solid axles have either a different thread diameter or thread pitch from hollow axles. The exception seems to be some rear Japanese axles which both use 10mm x 1.0 mm (diameter x thread pitch), Campagnolo rear axles which are 10 mm x 26 TPI (threads per inch) and Campagnolo front axles at 9mm x 26 TPI. If you can use your old cones and hardware, youíre over half the way there, and can skip directly to the paragraph on axle length.

HUB AND CONE DIMENSIONS: If you canít use your existing hardware, you need to take a few measurements with the existing axle in the hub. Measure the over locknut dimension (i.e. measure from the outside edge of one locknut to the outside edge of the other locknut ). Measure the locknut protrusion ( i.e. how far the outside edges of the locknuts protrude from the hub dust caps). Also measure the thickness of your dropouts. Now disassemble your hub and measure your cones. Critical dimensions are the diameter at the base of bearing race (i.e. the curved surface where the bearings ride), the outside diameter, and the length.

RACE DIAMETER: The most critical task is to find hollow axle cones with a race diameter that matches your old solid axle cones. Find a set of cones where the diameter at the base of the bearing race match closely. Now determine if the balls are riding properly on the cones bearing race. Coat the cone with grease, insert the cone into the hub and turn it on the bearings. Next, carefully remove the cone. You should be able to observe a thin line on the cone that has been wiped clear of grease. This is where the bearings are riding on the cone. It should be about half way up the coneís curved surface . If it is at the top, it will not carry the vertical loads properly, and may result in premature cone wear and axle failure. If itís at the bottom, it will not carry the lateral loads properly. Again, this may cause premature cone wear and the wheel may have side to side play, even with properly adjusted cones.

CONE OUTSIDE DIAMETER: Here, itís better to go slightly smaller than larger. If itís too large, the cone will rub on the hubís dust cap. Of course, you can enlarge the hole of the dust cap if you want to. If itís too small, itís easy for dirt to enter, however this is an easy fix. Visit your hardware store and find a rubber o-ring that you can stretch over the cone and push up against the dust cap, to seal the opening. A little grease on the o-ring before mounting aids the seal. Wipe the excess grease off afterwards. (I use this trick on all my vintage hubs and bottom bracket which do not have factory rubber seals. It provides good sealing with minimal rotational drag.)

CONE LENGTH AND OVER LOCKNUT DIMENSION: Next youíll have to match the dimension over the outside edge of the locknuts with your solid axle setup. This is affected by the cone length and again itís better to go undersize on the length. If the over locknut dimension is too small, simply add washers/spacers as necessary. If you canít get it exact, it just means that the wheel may not insert and remove easily. If itís too wide, you may have to spread the stays while inserting the wheel. If itís too narrow, you may have to back off and re-tightening the adjustable nut on the quick release skewer each time you insert the wheel. Try to maintain the same left and ride side LOCKNUT PROTRUSION as close as possible to the original set-up, to avoid disturbing the font to rear wheel tracking

AXLE LENGTH: This should be the equal to, or 2 millimetre smaller than the dimension over the locknut outer edges plus the thickness of both dropouts. If the axle tips protrude beyond the dropouts, the quick release will not clamp the dropouts. Donít go too short, or there may not be enough axle length to properly support the dropout. This may be a problem with the thinner section of stamped dropouts. Yes, you can shorten axles to length, however if you do, cut the axle using an old locknut as a guide. Space the locknut to the point you want cut, using washers. The locknut will aid in cutting a square end and then, when you turn the locknut off the axle, it will clean up the burrs.

QUICK RELEASE SKEWERS: If youíve had to shorten an axle significantly, you may also want to shorten the quick release skewer. A skewer tip that protrudes beyond the adjustable locking nut can be quite painful, if you catch yourself on it.

DROPOUT SLOT WIDTH: Theoretically, a dropout slot for a particular solid axle could be too narrow for a hollow axle. I have not run into this and it would probably only occur with stamped dropouts. Of course, if this occurs you could file or cut a wider slot.

Regarding rim flat spots, it is possible to remove them depending on the degree. Small flat spots can be removed by retensioning spokes. The basic process involves retenionsing spokles in pairs (ie. an adjacent left and right side spoke). The pairs in the region of the flat spot are loosened, while the pairs on either side of the flat spot are tightened. This tightening draws the rim inward at these points, causing the rim to to pushed outwards at the flat spot. In more severe situations the rim can be cold set using a hammer and a block wood in the area of the flat spot.

Like side to side truing, removing a flat spot takes practice and patience. I suggest you refer to a good mechanic's manual and/or an experienced friend to help guide you through the process.

   axle conversion posted by John E on 8/14/2003 at 9:27:53 PM
Been there ... done that.
The previous post pretty well covers it. You will almost definitely need new cones because of the axle diameter difference. Sheldon Brown / Harris Cyclery can probably help you figure it out and sell you the necessary components.

   RE:axle conversion posted by JONathan on 8/14/2003 at 11:59:06 PM
Mark, check this out. I would think about lacing the QR hub onto the solid-axle hub's rim. Of course, I would get new spokes. Probably less time than hunting around and waiting for the necessary parts and then you'd still have the used spokes to worry about. Of course for me, this would be a good excuse to get another salvage bike with a good wheel....I know, I know....Just a thought....JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Technical Questions posted by Oscar on 8/15/2003 at 12:43:15 PM
I've swapped axles a few times and I never had a problem. I could see the possibility of a cone not matching well with the hub shell, but it's a quick operation and reversible if it doesn't work out.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Technical Questions posted by Ken on 8/15/2003 at 5:29:15 PM
Great post from Tom, deserves a place on Sheldon's articles. And Oscar's right- you can start with a bagful (in my case, a coffeecanful) of axles and see what fits in your hub. I've done it too, but when I saw this situation my thought was to swap rims. I've swapped rims on the same hub&spokes with good success, but that raises the question of spoke length.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Technical Questions posted by Rob on 8/15/2003 at 6:49:43 PM
Good point Ken,

Maybe someone who knows Sheldon should try to get him to visit the site (which I understand he does on occasion) to see if he wants some Tom's stuff...

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Technical Questions posted by Mark C. on 8/20/2003 at 5:02:57 PM
Gentlemen, a big, belated thank you for your responses (I have been on the road the last few days). I will delve into the mysteries of axles with a stronger conviction than I had before. I appreciate the sharing of the wealth of knowledge especially Tom as my fingers would have given out typing that much! Thank you!






FOR SALE:†††Vintage '61 Olmo posted by: MC on 8/14/2003 at 12:53:54 PM
Spectacular vintage '61 Olmo for sale on eBay right now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3621581258&category=7298




   †Vintage '61 Olmo posted by John E on 8/14/2003 at 9:34:11 PM
Yes, it is beautiful. Purists should note, however, that the rear derailleur has been updated/upgraded from the original Gran Sport to the wider-range NR, probably to accommodate the equally after-market 14-28T freewheel. The 50-47 chainring combination would work best with a 14-23, 14-24, or 15-25 freewheel.






AGE / VALUE:†††? on a Sears and Roebuck made in Austria Bicycle posted by: Steve on 8/14/2003 at 12:36:03 AM
I have a Sears and Roebuck Bicycle that says made in Austria. It has a hub that says the same and says 3 speed on it, with a # of 503.21. There is no gear shifter on the bike. It has a model # of 503.472711 and also shows # 4342744 on the bottom of the crank shaft. It is a womans bike. I am trying to find some info on it,how old it might be or is it new, is it some type of auto shifter. If anyone can help I would appreciate it. Thanks!


   Sears and Roebuck made in Austria Bicycle posted by John E on 8/14/2003 at 4:20:36 PM
The frame was made by Steyr-Daimler-Puch, Graz, Austria (Arnold Schwarzenegger's hometown), probably in the late 1960s or early 1970s. There is probably a hole in the right side of the rear axle, into which the chain end of the control cable should be threaded. If the 3-speed hub is a Sturmey-Archer, the month and year of manufacture are stamped on its shell.






AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by: humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 8/13/2003 at 11:51:44 PM
The one spot on the Scot where the rust had gone deep enough to leave lasting damage is on the steel handlebar stem.
I cleaned it off. Underneath it it reads.
Cinelli Milano.
The bolt and nut has still brilliant chrome on it. Just on the top.
The bike was retired in 1973. The battery in the Delta light she was using as a tail light has an expiration date or 1973 on it. It did not leak! That was when it was hung up and forgotten.
Im sure some people "pickled" or took care to cover things like handlebars with oil soaked cloths or shellacked parts or took care to do something to prevent rust but usually when I see a bike that has been hanging up nothing was done to prevent rust.

This was not ever in a damp basement. The worse thing you can do with a bike is leave it in a damp basement.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by Rob on 8/14/2003 at 5:34:49 PM
Some good points, "humber.."

From the sound of your post you must live in a damp climate...and so do I. The number of rusted bikes I've seem , particularly the old ones with non-alloy parts is something else... Many people have simply stored them, often in good shape, in carports and sheds, years ago, and the bikes have quitely begun to rust away... My rule is that if you care about a bike you simply can't store it outside or anywhere damp...give it a nice warm home in a dry basement...of course, if you live in Arizona it's a non-issue...but maybe they have other issues...UV damage?

Another thing I've occasionally encountered is severe oxidation of alloy parts. I have an alloy hi-flange rear hub from the mid '70's that is so badly corroded that it has a 3/8" wide, or so, pit going almost through the center part of the hub...I wonder what the process is for causing that?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by Gralyn on 8/14/2003 at 8:27:42 PM
It's really humid where I am. I store my really good bikes in the house...actually in my bedroom. Then, my next-good bikes are stored in my small workshop. The humidity usually stays below 50% in there....and the bikes keep fairly well. Then, I keep the other bikes in the garage.....which is very, very damp. I live in an older home...and the garage doesn't have good ventilation.....actually it has none at all...the moisture just hangs in there. I know - for long-term storage....my bikes would rust away in that garage. And, my basement is always like a swamp. I would never store anything down there. Hopefully, I will be able to get some decent storage some day soon. Or, maybe fix the garage so that it's not too damp all the time.

I have gotten some pretty rusted bikes before, too. Even with alloy components rusted so badly - they couldnt' be cleaned up....chrome rims rusted beyond repair, etc.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by Lenny on 8/14/2003 at 10:23:11 PM
Here in the humid midwest (Indiana), damp basements are the rule. However, for years I have used a dehumidifier (with a hose running to a floor drain) to keep the basement [relative] humidity at around 55%. The basement is thus turned into the perfect place for long-term bicycle storage!

Disclaimer: improving storage conditions for bicycles may lead to difficulty in controlling one's addition to collecting them. Do so at your own risk :-)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by JONathan on 8/15/2003 at 5:10:42 AM
Aluminum alloys have the misfortune of developing stress crack corrosion. High pH (above 8.5) is another way that corrosion occurs, from whatI've read. My guess is that the part has been stressed to where a small crack formed (some can require a 10X scope to spot) which exposed the non-anodized (if it was anodized) surfaces to corrosive elements, I suspect. Salt spray would be one source, I would guess.
Some alloys are more resistant to corrosion...I think the 6xxx series is pretty tough. All of this is pure speculation, but I sure wouldn't use that part for anything except a display case. I have a few steel hubs from the '70's that have an irregular crack encompassing the housing right where the bearing cup is located. I can see rust residue along the cracks. I guess that's the result of pounding the wheel hard for a long time.
The rims are fine, which puzzles me, as usually a wheel that gets beat that hard has a dinged up rim. Oh well, the wonders of it all....JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by JONathan on 8/15/2003 at 5:58:46 AM
About rusted bikes. I have discovered that if I cover the bike with a cheap pic-nic table cover that is lined with "felt" works great. The condensation forms on the outside of the cover instead of on the bike. The felt seems to insulate the bike. The relative humidity is about 70%. Silicon spray helps. The pic-nic cover works on an old castiron table saw, which is a rust magnet, that's parked in the back yard. I think a basement is worse than outside covered up. Dank air is very supportive of rust. Just a 2-cent comment. JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by David on 8/15/2003 at 10:14:47 AM
Here in Boston it's been raining and very humid; I noticed that my bikes in the garage have developed moldy spots on the leather saddles! I'm not sure if the mold is growing in the leather or (hope against hope) the wax of the Proofide. (I should broaden the number of bikes I regularly use. Like exercising the animals...)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by Gralyn on 8/15/2003 at 12:32:21 PM
My leather saddles are doing that, too.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Cinelli stem posted by steve on 8/15/2003 at 3:30:05 PM
Back when I lived in Michigan (road salt!) and biked (sole transportation) all though the winter, I noticed that my corrosion problems seemed to be restricted to steel parts. An alloy chainring, for example, seemed to suffer not at all, while a steel freewheel cog might literally crumble away. I wonder if the rusting steel might have been providing electrolytic protection to the alumninum?






MISC:†††Vintage Components posted by: Rob on 8/13/2003 at 10:28:19 PM
And yet again, another of those terrific Japanese bike sites...this one is styled a 'virtual museum':

http://members.aol.com/satorumas/brands/brands.html

Lots of work went into this one...a labor of love I guess...

Also click the link to "Home" and check out the other parts of the site...

In checking the MAFAC link, I rediscovered what the acronym means (I've corrected as best I could what I think are a few spelling mistakes...maybe a Euro reader who speaks French can corrected me if I'm wrong).....MAFAC = Manufacturie Auvernoise Freins et Accessoires pour Cycles...I know that "Freins" is French for "brakes"...


   RE:MISC:†††Vintage Components posted by Tom on 8/14/2003 at 1:14:47 AM
Rob, thank-you very much for the link to a great site! I always contended that MAFAC was an ancronym, based on the memory on one set of brakes where there was period after each letter. However, I could never verifyit, until now.






AGE / VALUE:††† posted by: Keith on 8/13/2003 at 7:48:15 PM
Well, here's something I've long assumed but never confirmed and I hope Tom can shed some light on it. I've always thought that the in the PX-10 era racing machines that actually showed up in the peloton in the TDF, etc. were not made in the same production line as the relatively crudely made consumer bikes. Kind of like Eddy's hour bike was not really a Windsor, and Lance's 1999 TDF time trial bike was a Litespeed with Trek decals.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Tom on 8/13/2003 at 10:52:43 PM
Keith, I wish I had my reference material here to verify this one, but I seem to recall reading that Eddy Merckx had his Peugeots manufactured elsewhere. I don't recall if it was DeRosa or Colnago. I know he had later bikes manufactured by both parties, but I believe this was also the case with his Peugeots. Hopefully, someone else can verify this.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Keith on 8/14/2003 at 1:24:19 PM
I'm going out on a limb on this one, but didn't the Seven-Eleven team ride Huffys made by Serotta? I know Merckx's various bikes were made by the big three -- Masi, Colnago and DeRosa -- but I'm embarrased to say I wasn't aware that he ever rode a Peugeot branded bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Keith on 8/14/2003 at 1:43:07 PM
Here's some nice documentation on the'nago Merckx hour bike:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Mexico/Windsor_Merckx.htm

If anyone has a site or other resource that provides more information on this bike, please share it with me. I believe Tom will confirm that the current UCI rules concerning hour record bikes are patterned after Eddy's hour bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Tom on 8/14/2003 at 3:45:23 PM
Eddy rode for Peugeot in 1966-1967, winning the World Championship in the latter year. I distinctly recall Peugeot ads that appered well into 70's, showing Merckx wearing his rainbow jersey and riding a Peugeot.

The best article on Eddy's hour record bike appeared in Bicycle Guide. Fortunately, CR has a copy of it on their web site;
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Benelux/Merckx_hour_B-guide_1.htm

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the current UCI rules concerning hour record bikes are patterned after Eddy's hour bike". Eddy's bike had to conform to the UCI rules that were in place at the time. When Moser set his hour record, there was significant backlash over the non-traditional nature of his bike, specifically pertaining to aerodynamic benefits and cost. As a result the rules were revised. Since that time the rules have been revised numerous times, mostly pertaining to aerodynamics. While not wanting to stifle developments, the UCI approach tries to maintain a balance between traditionalism, cost and safety.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Keith on 8/14/2003 at 5:11:06 PM
It was a year or two ago that the UCI adopted new standards specifically for hour record bikes. It eliminates the use of aero bars altogether, and restricts frames to the traditional diamond frame, among other things. There was debate at the time as to whether it was right to stifle innovation, and the answer was that it was necessary to establish some standard basis for comparison of the athletes' abilities rather than engineers' talents. I read about it in a Velonews article. I'm not sure, but I think I recall that Chris Boardman went ahead and beat Eddy's record on a UCI approved low-tech Eddy-style bike.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Keith on 8/14/2003 at 5:28:20 PM
P.S. Thanks for the CR article -- right under my nose. I think the current UCI hour record bike rules would actually disqualify Eddy's bike, if I remember correctly, because Eddy's would be under the weight limit. I'm trying to remember all of this from an article I read a year or two ago.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Keith on 8/14/2003 at 5:34:17 PM
P.P.S. Here's something I dug up quickly on the Boardman record. Not much on the bike but look at the picture -- standard drop handlebars, taking the technology back to the pre-Moser era. http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/oct00/trackworlds003.shtml

   RE:AGE / VALUE:††† posted by Tom on 8/15/2003 at 12:13:19 AM
Thanks Keith, I am now on track. My understanding, based on the rulebook, is that the UCI has two different records for the hour time trial on the track.

The "Best Hour Performance", utilizes rules that allows aero tubes, aero wheels and aero tubes to the same extent as those allowed for other track events (ie. pursuit, km )and for individual and team road time trials.

The other record is the "Hour Record", which restricts frames to round tubes, handlebars to traditional design, and rims to profiles no more than 22mm deep.

Of course, the above statements are not complete and paraphrase the important elements. Basically, there is a record for a modern, aero bicycle and another record for a traditional, non-aero bike, similar to that ridden by Merckx.


Under the "Hour Record" category, Merckx's record was re-instated until Boardman broke it. I agree that under the current rules, Merckx's bike would have been illegal on the basis that it was underweight. I guess that makes Boardman's record just that much more impressive, since his bike was much heavier and he did it at sea level.

It is my understanding that all the aero bike records starting with Moser (Obree, Rominger, Boardman) were simply reclassified as "Best Hour Performances".

So, is two records the right approach, or not? Ultimately, the riders will have say, as choose which record they want to pursue. I've got my own opinion, but I just know it would lead to a big controversy.