NOTICE

I'm selling the OldRoads.com website.

I started the site in 1995 and sold my retail shop in April of this year.

I'm retiring from the bike business.

Here's a link to the eBay auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122248859390

Vinny


All pictures and text in these pages are (c)2010 Menotomy Vintage Bicycles, Inc.(tm) and may not be used in any form without written permission from Menotomy Vintage Bicycles, Inc.(tm).

messages for: Balloon and Middleweight Discussions



BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Book posted by: Doug Golden on 1/10/2010 at 1:15:02 PM
Hi, Where can I purchase a bicycle collectors book that covers Hiawatha bicycles in great detail?

Thank you,
Doug
by: 98.168.234.242

  Replies:
          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by yhdy on 3/22/2010 at 3:19:50 PM
james hurd t. a. gordon
by: 71.227.212.170

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by NBHAA.com on 4/5/2010 at 12:20:02 PM
There is no book covering Hiawatha brand in detail. But yes, Leon Dixon DOES have a "huge library" of catalogues, but contrary to your nasty remark, he IS "sharing" if individual people write WITH photos and ask politely. There are some folks who write terse notes without even bothering to even say "hello" and just demand things like, "tell me EVERYTHING you about Hiawatha!" OR... "send me EVERYTHING you have on Hiawatha" (or Schwinn or Huffman or Shelby, etc.). Or "tell me everything I need to know to identify all of the Hiawathas (or some other brand). This is absurd. Then the same folks go off and post all of this information on do-it-yourself websites and make it look as though it came from them! And like- oh yeah- this is something ANYONE can do in an instant. Well it isn't. And it is NOT merely having a large collection of literature that makes one an expert on these subjects. It is LONG YEARS OF STUDY. This is why mistaken books come out all the time with mis-identified catalogues and incorrect information in them. The literature helps, but amateurs cannot decipher the literature in many cases or the numbers- all of which is why we have these kinds of postings. IF IT WERE ALL THAT EASY, you would not have people all over the hobby guessing at these things. You would not have people swearing that their postwar Colsons are PREWAR- because "I saw a picture that looks JUST LIKE MINE on the internet!" .Why this hobby refuses to recognize expertise over loud-mouthery and rudeness is a mystery. The story of Hiawatha bicycles is VERY complicated and not something an amateur can simply pick up overnight. Why some people expect this is a mystery. We have been studying and collecting these things over 50 years and we still don't know all there is to know. How can someone in a mere letter make you into an instant expert on the subject? And there were several different companies that manufactured bicycles sold under the Hiawatha brand. If you think you are going to figure all this out in a couple of emails, and guys swapping stories you are dreaming! It won't happen.
by: 67.172.189.91

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by ken on 1/11/2010 at 12:37:33 PM
Doug, more than one manufacturer had a Hiawatha brand. There are two listed before 1900 on the Wheelmen list. The more recent one I know of is Gamble's Hiawatha, sold by the Gamble's hardware store chain. These were probably made by Shelby up until 1954; more recent models would most likely be AMF, Huffy or Murray built. There are pictures of Hiawathas from the late 30s through the war years on Nostalgic.net, and one of them is marked Shelby Hiawatha. There are two Hiawatha head badges on jimlangley.net, one of which says Gamble's on it. Leon Dixon's Shelby page says Shelby built bikes for a number of hardware chains, and that AMF bought Shelby in 1954.
I couldn't find any book that appeared to meet your requirements either under Hiawatha or Shelby, but several of the standard works have Shelby references. If you find what you're looking for, I wish you'd post the information here!
by: 70.105.75.114

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by Devo on 2/5/2010 at 10:42:19 AM
I have a Hiawatha bike that im looking for some info on, really all im needing is what year it is and model. The serial number is wg3887144915 ,located on rear drop out. I have searched high and low for info and canrt find anything , i do know that it was purchased from Gambles Hardware store around 1968. Any onfo on the model and serial number would be greatly appreciated, thanks ! Devo.
by: 65.100.98.53

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by doug on 2/6/2010 at 5:13:57 AM
Not sure if this will help.Antiques roadshow seems to have experts on everything from soup to nuts if its old,maybe they have a bike expert who can tell how to find resources on bikes like Hiawatha.and other less popular brands than schwinn.Schwinn seems to be the easiest to date others can be impossible.
by: 68.96.140.208

          RE:RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by ken on 2/7/2010 at 11:08:27 AM
Devo, you won't get a model name from a serial number. You need to look at the frame and chainwheel design to figure out who made the bike, and then research that maker. My post to Doug Golden above spells it out - the pictures on Nostalgic.net are sorted by year, so look at late 60s pictures until you find one that has the same chainwheel as yours. Also- a short cut- look at your rear dropouts. If they come to a rear-facing point it's Murray-built.

doug p- please read Leon Dixon's website disclaimers at http://nbhaa.com/. He's grumpy but he's usually right.
by: 66.225.38.80

          RE:RE:RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by doug on 2/13/2010 at 11:44:06 AM
did I say something wrong??
by: 72.213.22.34

          RE:RE:RE:RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by ken on 2/15/2010 at 12:27:02 PM
not really- sorry, I flew off the handle slightly. I just don't think it's impossible. It's just that there isn't any one place where people like us can look things up. Leon Dixon apparently has a huge library of catalogs and stuff, but he's not sharing. Most collectors can look at a bike and place it within plus or minus 5 years or so, and there are people who know a particular make well and can recognize it and pin it down quickly. There are searchable collections of schwinn and raleigh and peugeot and trek catalogs. There's Classic Rendezvous for 10-speeds, and The Wheelmen have a fabulous list for pre-1920. And our man Vinny is doing all he can. But nobody's posting a centralized database, or even a complete list of models and their makers that I've ever seen... would it be cool to crossreference all the stores that Schwinn and Huffy and Murray and Cleveland and all the others built bikes for, with every maker that ever supplied Gamble's and Firestone and Coast to Coast and all the others, and when? Oh, and a picture of every chainwheel ever made, and its maker. Et cetera.
Thanks for letting me vent.
by: 70.105.104.148

          RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by Vin on 2/16/2010 at 6:54:03 AM
I’ve built the databases here (Picture Database, Price guides, etc.) with the help of a friend and my daughters, and whatever good data people on the web have sent in. But now my daughters are busy with their own lives, and my buddy and I are consumed with selling used bikes out of our retail shop.

If anyone has any thoughts on a way to have people collaborate on the putting stuff into a single database, I would get the structure built and host it here on OldRoads.

Vin – Menotomy Vintage Bicycles at OldRoads.com

by: 71.174.125.242

          RE:RE:RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by Devo on 2/19/2010 at 11:03:08 AM
Thanks guys, your info is greatly appreciated , thanks again Devo.
by: 65.100.98.53

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by Darla on 4/9/2010 at 3:59:31 PM
I would greatly appreciate any info on a bike I was given. It is a Sears bike with a sytem where the back tires generate ( charge) the light on the front. I am thinking of restoring it and riding it. I will post pictures soon. Just wondering if anyone has info on this type of set up. Thanks
by: 71.72.17.196

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by ken on 4/13/2010 at 8:56:10 AM
Mr. Dixon, I certainly did not intend any nastiness, and I'm quite sure you are the number one expert on vintage American bikes. However, by sharing I meant making the catalogs available for study. In my view, the purpose of a library is to educate. Clearly I'm not an expert; all I do is pass along the information I can find. Consider what a treasure it would be to the vintage bike community if your collections were available so that we could look them up and learn from them.
Please accept my apology if I have given offense where none was intended. Also please interpret with humor my remark in the previous post, with which I trust you will agree: "He's grumpy, but he's usually right." I was in fact referring these guys to you instead of Antiques Roadshow.
ken
by: 70.105.73.244

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by NBHAA.com on 4/14/2010 at 8:59:16 AM
Thank you for the nice response, Ken. Understood. I will only may one further point. National Bicycle History Archive of America (NBHAA.com), it not a library, even though I merely agreed with your wording of "huge library" in your post. An archive and a library are two different things. And while some might dream that it would answer ALL of their questions if they could just get their hands on over 60,000 bicycle catalogues, this just is not the reality. You need to know the history of the bicycles BEFORE looking at the literature. This is why there are so many "books" out in the hobby that mis-identify the literature and misinterpret the facts. WHy there are so many bizarre conclusions. Just in the last two days we have people writing to us with crazy theories they have formulated from reading "books" and the internet. One fellow swears his 1950s Rocket made by Monark is from 1938. WHY? Because he "saw it on the internet"! He even had the crust to tell us WE were wrong! Another person with a 1940-41 Schwinn-built bicycle swears it is much older and "all original" (it has an aftermarket postwar chainguard, Wald aftermarket fenders, and 1960s Sears grips). Even had the nerve to tell us- AFTER we told them what they actually have- that WE are wrong because they "saw one like it on the internet and in a book"! Having the catalogues- which by the way has taken a lifetime to accumulate- is only PART of the answer. You still need to know what you are looking at in order for the catalogues to make sense of it all. THis is why they have teachers in classrooms. Otherwise, schools would be unnecessary because we could just get all we need out of libraries and books...no? Thanks for the kind response.
by: 72.208.43.31

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by NBHAA.com on 4/14/2010 at 11:19:11 AM
Thank you for the nice response, Ken. Understood. I will only may one further point. National Bicycle History Archive of America (NBHAA.com), it not a library, even though I merely agreed with your wording of "huge library" in your post. An archive and a library are two different things. And while some might dream that it would answer ALL of their questions if they could just get their hands on over 60,000 bicycle catalogues, this just is not the reality. You need to know the history of the bicycles BEFORE looking at the literature. This is why there are so many "books" out in the hobby that mis-identify the literature and misinterpret the facts. WHy there are so many bizarre conclusions. Just in the last two days we have people writing to us with crazy theories they have formulated from reading "books" and the internet. One fellow swears his 1950s Rocket made by Monark is from 1938. WHY? Because he "saw it on the internet"! He even had the crust to tell us WE were wrong! Another person with a 1940-41 Schwinn-built bicycle swears it is much older and "all original" (it has an aftermarket postwar chainguard, Wald aftermarket fenders, and 1960s Sears grips). Even had the nerve to tell us- AFTER we told them what they actually have- that WE are wrong because they "saw one like it on the internet and in a book"! Having the catalogues- which by the way has taken a lifetime to accumulate- is only PART of the answer. You still need to know what you are looking at in order for the catalogues to make sense of it all. THis is why they have teachers in classrooms. Otherwise, schools would be unnecessary because we could just get all we need out of libraries and books...no? Thanks for the kind response.
by: 72.208.43.31

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by NBHAA.com on 4/14/2010 at 11:20:09 AM
Thank you for the nice response, Ken. Understood. I will only may one further point. National Bicycle History Archive of America (NBHAA.com), it not a library, even though I merely agreed with your wording of "huge library" in your post. An archive and a library are two different things. And while some might dream that it would answer ALL of their questions if they could just get their hands on over 60,000 bicycle catalogues, this just is not the reality. You need to know the history of the bicycles BEFORE looking at the literature. This is why there are so many "books" out in the hobby that mis-identify the literature and misinterpret the facts. WHy there are so many bizarre conclusions. Just in the last two days we have people writing to us with crazy theories they have formulated from reading "books" and the internet. One fellow swears his 1950s Rocket made by Monark is from 1938. WHY? Because he "saw it on the internet"! He even had the crust to tell us WE were wrong! Another person with a 1940-41 Schwinn-built bicycle swears it is much older and "all original" (it has an aftermarket postwar chainguard, Wald aftermarket fenders, and 1960s Sears grips). Even had the nerve to tell us- AFTER we told them what they actually have- that WE are wrong because they "saw one like it on the internet and in a book"! Having the catalogues- which by the way has taken a lifetime to accumulate- is only PART of the answer. You still need to know what you are looking at in order for the catalogues to make sense of it all. THis is why they have teachers in classrooms. Otherwise, schools would be unnecessary because we could just get all we need out of libraries and books...no? Thanks for the kind response.
by: 72.208.43.31

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by ken on 4/15/2010 at 12:30:18 PM
You are perfectly correct. Libraries need librarians; archives need archivists; students need teachers. I teach music, and the scariest scenario is the enthusiastic student who gets something wrong due to forging ahead alone. I admire the initiative, but dread the results.
I still hope that some or all of your archive may eventually become a library.

by: 70.105.73.244

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by Steve on 5/28/2010 at 11:16:58 PM
Do you have any information on rocket bicycles, I owned one during the fiftys and miss it greatly, it was similar to the bike in peewees great adventure. I would appreciate any info you might have. I believe I got mine at Gambless
Thanks Again, Steve
by: 69.176.242.54

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by ash1976 on 8/5/2010 at 3:10:37 PM
ha! I find the later part of this discussion hilarious!

Leon/NBHAA

You seem to be arguing that we non-Leon-peons are incapable of learning the hobby without YOU to explain all the nuances. At present, that may indeed be the case, but I would argue that it's because you are hoarding your "huge library" and refusing to make the information available to the general public, NOT because we are uneducated dolts who are incapable of learning and integrating the required information without your hand-holding. Most of your argument centers around examples of mis-identification, thanks to a lack of coherent, accessible facts, and an excess of misleading information by people who don't have the proper amount of knowledge. Since you are the self-proclaimed (and well-deserved) expert in this field, and have so much knowledge and information, why don't you set the record straight and make available all of those catalogs, along with photos and specifications?

I do not need to know the entire history of the automobile to look at my car and know it's a 2005 Toyota Corolla. And if something is changed with my car, it's possible to look at the manufacturers specifications and determine what is original and what has been changed. The same process occurs when identifying an unknown bicycle. That is the process YOU engage when identifying one from photos and emails. If new hobbyists are having difficulty, it is because there is a lack of available and reliable information.

Making catalogs and specifications available can only INCREASE the accuracy of DIY-ers. Factual information can only INCREASE accuracy. And withholding it is doing nothing to contribute to the hobby.

Despite your response here, which seems to be critical of the idea of making those catalogs public, it says on your website that you are interested in digitizing your archive and creating an online collection. I'm sure there are many of us who would agree that that is a GREAT IDEA!!! I, for one, would be very willing to donate my time to helping you scan and digitize your collection.

by: 75.107.220.73

          RE:BALLOON:   Collectible Bike Bookposted by ash1976 on 8/5/2010 at 3:10:56 PM
ha! I find the later part of this discussion hilarious!

Leon/NBHAA

You seem to be arguing that we non-Leon-peons are incapable of learning the hobby without YOU to explain all the nuances. At present, that may indeed be the case, but I would argue that it's because you are hoarding your "huge library" and refusing to make the information available to the general public, NOT because we are uneducated dolts who are incapable of learning and integrating the required information without your hand-holding. Most of your argument centers around examples of mis-identification, thanks to a lack of coherent, accessible facts, and an excess of misleading information by people who don't have the proper amount of knowledge. Since you are the self-proclaimed (and well-deserved) expert in this field, and have so much knowledge and information, why don't you set the record straight and make available all of those catalogs, along with photos and specifications?

I do not need to know the entire history of the automobile to look at my car and know it's a 2005 Toyota Corolla. And if something is changed with my car, it's possible to look at the manufacturers specifications and determine what is original and what has been changed. The same process occurs when identifying an unknown bicycle. That is the process YOU engage when identifying one from photos and emails. If new hobbyists are having difficulty, it is because there is a lack of available and reliable information.

Making catalogs and specifications available can only INCREASE the accuracy of DIY-ers. Factual information can only INCREASE accuracy. And withholding it is doing nothing to contribute to the hobby.

Despite your response here, which seems to be critical of the idea of making those catalogs public, it says on your website that you are interested in digitizing your archive and creating an online collection. I'm sure there are many of us who would agree that that is a GREAT IDEA!!! I, for one, would be very willing to donate my time to helping you scan and digitize your collection.

by: 75.107.220.73




stop 11/11/11 vinvin new forum --> We have migrated this discussion to our new forum at OldRoadsForums.com.




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