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AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...? posted by: Philip on 5/2/2009 at 2:18:30 PM
A couple of weeks ago I found an old bicycle which I think has been made by Phillips, although I can't find any badges or decals - the frame is very rusty, the fenders are rusted through and so are the Westwood rims. The lamp bracket has a 'P' stamped out of it and the rear brake rod passes down the left hand side of the head tube, it doesn't go through the lamp bracket. The wheels are 26 x 1 3/8 inches, single speed rear wheel 40 spokes, front 36 spokes, the frame is 22 inches. It has a Raleigh chainwheel which I'm sure isn't correct. There is very little chrome on the frame, just a little cap at the top of the forks - the handlebars seem to have been painted black when it was new - there is no chrome under the paint.

There is a frame number on the left side at the top of the seat tube, it is A67906 and there are the numbers 5 and 1 just below the first serial number. I'd like to rebuild it so that I could use it in the good weather.

When do you think my bicycle was built?




by: 86.24.148.118


  Replies:
          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Steve on 5/2/2009 at 4:21:26 PM
Front wheel, chainwheel and cranks are obvious later replacements.
I'm not sure if all Phillips bikes had the Phillips insignia in the centre/top of the handlebars or for that matter, the lion "renowned the world over" badges on the headstock and rear mudguard/fender.
Are there any rivet holes in the headtube or evidence of a badge on the rear mudguard.
I was going to say 1950's, but the black (unchromed)handlebars put me off the scent !
If the bike has had replacement chainwheel and cranks, it may well have had a replacement B/B axle (if not, the date may well be stamped on there).

Is that a Terry's, Middlemores or Lycett seat ?

Any Phillips experts out there ?

Steve - jack of all trades, but master of none !
by: 93.96.36.127

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Philip on 5/3/2009 at 1:06:52 AM
Thanks for your reply. I've had a look at the headtube and can't see any rivet holes and there is no sign of any badge on the rear mudguard but it's so rotten and rusty it's hard to tell. It has a Lycett saddle. I thought that the handlebars had just been painted over the chrome but when I turned it over to start working on it I saw from the underside of the handlebars that they had only ever been painted black, no sign of old chrome at all. I'll post another couple of pictures. first the handlebars and then I'll put up a photograph of the frame number. Someone has put foam grips on the handlebars, I know they shouldn't be there.
[p][a href=http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p161/Kaefer1/My-old-bike.jpg target=_blank][img src=the_camera.jpg][/a]
by: 86.10.12.232

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Philip on 5/3/2009 at 1:09:30 AM
Here's a photograph of the frame number...

A67906 with the numbers 5 and 1 stamped underneath...

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p161/Kaefer1/My-old-bikes-frame-number.jpg[p][a href=http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p161/Kaefer1/My-old-bikes-frame-number.jpg target=_blank][img src=the_camera.jpg][/a]
by: 86.10.12.232

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Matthew on 5/3/2009 at 1:27:55 AM
Hi Philip,

Never one to be faint with my opinions, I'll stick my neck out. This looks like a pre-war all weather (no chrome) model. The frame angles don't look post war and the wheels, particularly the front, are probably newer than the bicycle as are the pedals and crank.

So we are looking at a bike form the 1930's. A good find by any standards. Clean and repaint what you need to. Replace the chain, look on eBay for a Phillips crank, they do appear. Enjoy it!

Matthew - opinionated because it might count.
by: 86.27.190.173

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Steve on 5/3/2009 at 7:39:52 AM
Well, if this is any use, I have a Phillips frame here with a serial number that commences with the letter "T" and I'm 99.9% certain it's a 1955 model (the SA AW hub and wheel look as near as damn it original, and so does everything else).

In a simple world and working backwards on a yearly basis, I suppose you could say that "A" could equal 1936...but is/was life that easy ?
I also have a tradebike commencing with the letter "R", it could quite easily be a 53 model based on the above theory !

As it's Sunday here in the little Island of Britannia (and for that matter across the pond), wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone with a Phillips bicycle responded to this age/letter theory by putting their piece of Battenburg cake back onto the silver coated leaning tower of Pisa cake stand, not bother to wipe the crumbs off their face, spill the tea all over the freshly ironed Sunday best Gingham table cloth and go and have a quick look at the seat lug on their beloved Phillips.

On retrieval of said data, return to the freshly repaired picnic table and discuss it in great detail with ones other half, praising the positioning of the cloth and how it doesn't show the tea stain (thats now drifted down the garden path and diverted under the fence and into next doors Olympic standard swimming pool).

When things have calmed down (and there's only jammy dodgers and custard creams left), carefully sneak off to the computer and forward the details to here, where there are many specially scientifically trained people (that resemble a cross between Gordon Brown, Pythagoras and Noddy), who are waiting to exercise their logarithmical tendencies to the full before relaxing with a smooth hot cup of Horlicks prior to retiring to bed with a clear conscience!

We await your replies, with sharpened pencils and slide rules at the ready.

Steve - name and address withheld.
by: 93.96.36.127

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by mark H on 5/3/2009 at 9:44:54 AM
well my phillips states on the bottom left chain stay k1104 and the sturmey says 52 it is all original i was told and looks to be so--but ya never know.i used a pencil and paper,to write down the serial number!
by: 75.155.177.92

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Matthew on 5/3/2009 at 9:54:40 AM
Hey Mark,

That's novel; I use a wax crayon and paper to do a rubbing of the frame number. Its not as sharp as a pencil and therefore safer.

Matthew - super safety
by: 86.27.134.239

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Steve on 5/3/2009 at 3:43:34 PM
Mark, we've come to the conclusion that your K serial numbered bicycle is actually a 46 frame that mysteriously vanished without trace until rediscovered by police in the attic of a house in Small Heath, Birmingham in 1952.

This was the conclusion to a five year undercover enquiry into missing "K" registered bicycle frames from the Phillips factory, a male wearing trousers with extremely large pockets (and known to be renowned the world over) was believed at the time to have been helping the police with their enquiries...he said he'd been framed !

The frame (like many others) was returned to the factory and fitted with Sturmey 1952 equipment before being sold on the open market.

Moving on...pencils, wax crayons, paper etc...it makes no difference to me, I still can't find the number on this Sunbeam !

Steve - time for a nightcap
by: 93.96.36.127

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Stephen Hogben on 5/5/2009 at 1:50:16 PM
I am renovating a "old" Philips at the moment according to the 3 speed hub it is 1934,but as this the only part of the bike with chrome still on it I am wondering if it may be earlier.Probably the oil thrown up from the chain and hub protected it.It has Philips stamped onto the middle of the handlebars.I asked today on re-chroming of various parts of it,£35 just for the handlebars!!!!! Think I will have to pay for it bit by bit. Want to do this up properly so I can do the London to Brighton on it! Got 9 bikes now people now know I collect them and keep giving me bikes mostly fpom the 60,s,running out of shed room!
by: 86.0.56.31

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Steve on 5/5/2009 at 4:31:26 PM
Stephen, I'm presuming the hub is a K4, I just wonder what makes you think the bike could be earlier than 1934 (as opposed to later).
Upload a photo on here so that we can play..."spot the angles" !

You've only got six weeks or so, if you're going to use it on the London to Brighton.

It's funny how bikes just drop into your lap, once people realise that your "a nutter" !

My wife won't ride with me on the L to B unless I use a geared bike, so it's looking like the 37 Hercules, I wanted to use a single speed tradebike (Phillips or Gundle)...in fact I might still do, but don't tell her !

Steve - have fun.



by: 93.96.36.127

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Steve on 5/6/2009 at 8:41:48 AM
Stephen, I've just been sent home from work and been advised to lie down in a dark room for a few days, but before I attempt that ridiculous order, could you forward your Phillips frame serial number letter (presuming it's got one), to see if we can make any sense of the Phillips lettering system relating to age etc etc etc.

I really don't know if it has anything to do with year of production, but there's no harm in trying.

It would just be useful to work out the age of something from the frame prefix (apart from a Raleigh) if possible.

Steve - thanks
by: 93.96.36.127

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Stephen Hogben on 5/7/2009 at 4:36:50 AM
Right had a look At my old "Philips" yes got a K4 hub,no it has no badge on the front and no sign that it ever did. Looked for frame numbers could not find any,scraped through the mandatory five coats of black paint on the bottom of the crank,to find 3 letters B.S.A.!!!!! Obviously had Philips handlebars put on it.Where would I find the frame number? Thanks.
by: 86.0.56.31

          RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Steve on 5/7/2009 at 1:09:25 PM
Don't you just love it !

You think you've got a Phillips then maybe a BSA. I've got an oldie here...and I haven't got the foggiest idea what make it is, and neither has anyone else.

Oh well, I suppose you're going to have to scratch around in the usual places i.e. seat lug (side and top), rear dropout, rear of seat tube, lower head tube/stock etc.

I can't shout to loud because I've yet to find the number on my tatty Sunbeam (and I'm not yet in the mood to strip another frame down to bare metal just to find a serial number). I do know that there's someone out there that can date a Sunbeam off the serial number...I just don't know his number !

I reckon that if you "beam me up Scotty" a photo onto here, they're will be one or two eagle eyes that will no doubt be able to hazard a calculated guess as to what your unidentified machine could be.

As a point of interest, my Hercules bikes all commence with two letters before the serial number...I haven't got a clue what they relate to !

As a further point of interest, the engine blocks on Ford tractors used to have various numbers stamped into them, from this you could actually work out what shift, day, month, year etc the block (and loosely speaking the tractor) was put together.

Steve - verbal digitalitis
by: 93.96.36.127

          RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Tim on 6/26/2009 at 4:36:26 PM
Hey Steve, how about a brass "Birmingham" headbadge Phillips rod brake roadster frame with 3398GS stamped on the seat tube clamp area. No Sturmey attached!
by: 75.93.4.109

          RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Danny on 8/12/2009 at 11:31:22 AM
Regarding the unchromed handlebars, while it was common practice either side of the war to chrome them, the British government outlawed it from 1939-45, and was still scarce in 46, so my immediate reaction would be to say its a wartime bike.
by: 74.125.16.66

          RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:���Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Alberto E. Seoane on 11/5/2009 at 8:15:52 AM
i own a pre war woman 28 wheeled original bike. Both saddle springs (original )are broken. Re painted and all original can you tell my the price out there? Thanks.-
by: 190.231.169.112

          RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:���Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Alberto E. Seoane on 11/5/2009 at 8:18:13 AM
i own a pre war woman 28 wheeled original bike. Both saddle springs (original )are broken. Re painted and all original can you tell my the price out there? Thanks.-
by: 190.231.169.112

          RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:���Another old Phillips bicycle...?posted by Alberto E. Seoane on 11/5/2009 at 8:18:15 AM
i own a pre war woman 28 wheeled original bike. Both saddle springs (original )are broken. Re painted and all original can you tell my the price out there? Thanks.-
by: 190.231.169.112

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