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Archived: English Roadsters

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1951 rudge witworth sports model posted by: flavio on 10/11/2000 at 7:24:26 PM
My message : Just curious I have owned about ten english bicycles and then were later sold I never new there was a market until one day i walked in a bicycle shop with a 1967 childs raleigh rodeo, I picked it up at yard sale for $50 dollars I sold for about two hundred. One of best my best that i own now is my rugde sports model, it has front headlamp, rear light powered by rear dynohub. brooks B72 leather saddle. pump,locking front forks, enclosed chaincase . a set of deluxe style foam rubber grips, also has dry-cell accumulator unit. Bicycle is all stock except tires. If anbody owns the same I would like to get a rough idea what it could be worth . thanks Bikeguru2.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1951 rudge witworth sports model posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/14/2000 at 10:01:54 AM
This seems to be tricked out with all the goodies especially with those luscious huge grips. I know these grips of which you speak. Wonderfull handlebar grips. Why, I have bought whole bikes just to get my paws on those grips! Do you have a bell? Follow E -bay and see what these go for. How are your decals? any dents? You have a cool bike!

FOR SALE:   1973 Raleigh Superb *Clean* Dyno posted by: Jim on 10/11/2000 at 7:34:35 PM
For sale 1973 Raleigh Superb. Very clean bike. Incredible Brooks B66 Saddle, the nicest that you will ever see that is not NOS or on a store shelf. Working Dyno hub with Sturmey Archer lighting system. Rear rack. Locking fork is missing key. Minimal scratches. Good tires. Nice brightwork. $150 plus shipping or you can pick it up. I'm in Loudon, NH 03307 close to the speedway. A photo is available for viewing at http://bikeyard.home.mindspring.com/superbe
This bike will be going to ebay soon if there is no interest here first

AGE / VALUE:   Dumb Newbie Questions posted by: Peter Storey on 10/11/2000 at 6:15:42 PM
These are so low-level, even the archives don't seem to answer them (No. 4 is really more of a poll):

1. What's the difference betweena Raleigh Tourist and a DL-1?

2. Are both of them rod-action brake models?

3. What does the "DL" stand for?

4. As between either or both, on the one hand, and the Superbe on the other, who likes what and why?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dumb Newbie Questions posted by Jim on 10/11/2000 at 9:02:02 PM
Did you ask any of these questions when you were a newbie?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dumb Newbie Questions posted by Grant on 10/12/2000 at 12:19:53 PM
I am new to this board too but if no one else will answer I
will have a go.

1) Raleigh made a variety of models using the same frame and
components that could be grouped under the "Tourist" name. They
all had the typical diamond style frame, or double tube frame
in ladies' models. The same upright handlebars, same 26 X 1 3/8
wheels, sidepull brakes and the same fenders and chainguard.

The cheapest models had single speed drive, possibly with coaster
brake and no calipers. Flat profile rims. Cheaper seat with no
springs. The higher priced jobs had brake levers with built in
adjusters, better seat, fancier pedals, 3 speed Sturmey-Archer
hub. The top line Superbe model had a key lock in the fork and
headlight and tailight set powered by a dynamo built into the
wheel hub and a rear luggage rack.

They also used the same parts for a variety of makes such as
Robin Hood, Triumph, Supercycle etc.These were all built on
the same frame with the same handlebars
and were of equal quality except for the accessories.

The DL1 is a completely different machine with 28" wheels and
rod brakes. It is considered the top Raleigh roadster model.

2) See above.

3) Nobody seems to know. One theory is that it means Deluxe
Ladies model 1 but that doesn't make much sense to me.

4) They are all easy and fun to ride. The cheaper jobs have
the same quality frame etc. The more expensive ones are nicer
with more comfortable seat and better accessories. The DL1
is bigger and heavier if you need that type of thing. The rod
brakes do not work as well as the caliper type. On the whole
unless you are very big and do a lot of riding on bad roads
you don't need one.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dumb Newbie Questions posted by Kevin c. on 10/13/2000 at 3:22:28 PM
1. Tourist and DL-1 are the same, a 28-inch roadster. If it has 26-inch wheels it is probably a Raleigh Sports, which I have always thought is a more practical bicycle, but with less eye appeal.

   The only dumb question, is a question not asked posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/14/2000 at 10:09:30 AM
Since this particular type bike was made almost from the begining of the history of the company I suspect the 1 part was model one. The last "L" in D.L.1. L means ladies. or ladies frame. Recent 1980's versions up until 1987 were known in England as the "Royal Roadster" They ceased production in England in 1987 of this bike after 100 years. Still being made in India, Taiwan, Africa maybe.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Ohio Collectors? English only swap meets? posted by: Wendell on 10/11/2000 at 10:00:03 AM
Any english collectors in the Columbus Ohio area. I am looking to buy parts and bikes! Also looking for someone to ride with. Also any English only Swap meets in the US? I heard there was one in Penn. Thanks!!!!!

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Ohio Collectors? English only swap meets? posted by Keith on 10/11/2000 at 11:24:28 AM
I live in Worthington, and rode my DL-1 14 miles to work today. I have several English bikes -- 2 DL-1s, a Sports, 2 Dunelts, a Hercules, a Mercian Professional, and a Raleigh International. I'd probably be willing to part with the 1970 Hercules -- it's in nice shape with chrome mudguards and chainguard. Anyway, email me and if you're not an ax murderer or stalker maybe we could get together and ride.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by: Keith on 10/11/2000 at 7:01:28 AM
In the recent book "The Dancing Chain" author Berto cites a 1998 study of epicyclic hub efficnency compared to derailleur bikes. The study found gear hubs to be as low as 80% efficient, and as high as 95% in the "direct" gear. The study found derailleurs to be 95-98% efficient. The study used Shimano and I believe Sachs hubs, and not Sturmey. I raised this issue a couple of years ago, and Randy (are you out there?) cited a study from a book like Bicycle Science or something that reached the conclusion that epicyclic hubs were on par with derailleurs. Can anyone out there shed light on this? I rode my DL-1 to work. I really don't care how efficnient it is. I suppose it might, however, affect decisions like whether to bother with epicyclic hubs on lightweight bikes if you're actually trying to maximize efficiency.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by Grant on 10/11/2000 at 12:06:43 PM
There is a lot of bunk hokum and advertising propaganda in these
chain stories. If we look at the facts it is obvious that certain
claims are physically impossible.

First of all I do believe that a chain drive can be up to 98% efficient.
I have seen that statistic in an engineering manual for the design layout
of industrial chain drives. It assumes ideal conditions: 2 sprockets of
ideal size, and chain of ideal size for the power and speed to be dealt
with; and all new properly lubricated parts. These ideal conditions are never
seen on a derailleur drive.

Let us look at the sources of friction in a chain drive. First there is the
rolling action of the chain rollers over the sprocket. This is a small
factor because the rollers move very little. Then there is the friction
between the side plates as they bend and straighten each time
the chain passes over a sprocket. This depends on the size of the
sprocket. Since a chain wheel by definition is 360 degrees, a 41 tooth
sprocket will bend the chain 8.78 degrees while a 10 tooth will
bend it 36 degrees. The difference in friction is obvious.

Since a derailleur drive has two driving sprockets plus two
tiny idler sprockets there is no way it is going to get away
with only a 2% power loss. I believe those 2 little idlers with
their bearings create more friction than the drive sprockets.
Then there is the question of angle. Ideally we assume the drive
line is straight but in a derailleur the chain is frequently
bent into an S shape. This must increase side friction. I know
they shave down the spricket teeth but the side plates of the
chain are still under terrific strain on a hard pull and rubbing
like mad.

Now look at a hub drive. It is close to the ideal, with proper
size sprockets, in a direct line, with no extra complication.
Now what about the internal gears? In direct drive they are locked
out so the drive should be more efficient than the best derailleur.
In low or high you will be driving through an epiicyclic gear
train with up to 5 gear interfaces ( sun ring and 3 planet)and their
bearings. This is bound to produce more or less friction.

On the whole I doubt there is much difference on a new bike.
Both will be pretty good in direct drive, with a slight edge
to the hub gear. Both will be less efficient in low.

Now what if we use the two for a year? Both chains will wear
and get coated with dust and dirt which will increase friction.
But the derailleur will wear far more and develop far more friction.
The hub gear on the other hand is immune to dust and grit, runs
in an oil bath, and will become more efficient as it breaks in.

When I rode motorcycles in the 60's I found out something
about chain friction.I rode English motorcycles and my
friends had Japanese. When we went on a long ride I was surprised
how much trouble they had with chains. They were always lubricating,
adjusting, or paying the penalty for not doing so. I have seen their chains
smoking hot, or red with rust from overheating. They were always
experimenting with special spray lube, special chains, O ring chains etc.
I never had any trouble with mine, they never got that hot, and I never had
to replace a chain except one on an old bike that was worn out when I
bought it.This is not an unfair comparison because we road on the same
roads at the same time with machines of similar size and power. If anything
me and my bike were the heaviest.

The difference was in the chain drive. I had a 19 or 21 tooth
rear sprocket while theirs were usually 17 down to 14 teeth.
This may not sound like much but it made all the difference in
the amoutn of friction and therefore heat. So if someone tells
me a derailleur drive with those little idler sprockets and
cockeyed chain is low friction they are talking through their
hat. To me the derailleur is nothing but a contraption.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by Keith on 10/11/2000 at 1:12:18 PM
You really need to Email Frank Berto and present your arguments -- he and his compatriots agree with the French and call English hub gears "little friction boxes." They say the British penchant for tidiness steered them in the wrong direction! The French, who let it all hang out, win! Best arm yourself with the study cited by Randy somewhere in the archives. You engineers out there should not let this challenge go unanswered!

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by Grant on 10/11/2000 at 2:07:12 PM
I can't repeal the laws of physics and neither can Frank Berto.
If he says a derailleur drive is between 95 and 98 percent efficient,
at all times and under all circumstances, he is a liar.Now if he
says the best derailleur ever made, carefully hand fitted and adjusted,
running under laboratory conditions, beat the worst performance of the
worst hub gear under the worst conditions...

As I am not a racing man this argument is of purely academic interest.
For me the derailleur is a mess. I prefer an enclosed drive for
practical and aesthetic reasons and if it entails a trifle more of friction
that is not a sufficient argument to change my mind.

Now if I were a racer I might well prefer a derailleur, in spite
of its obvious defects, because it would allow me to swap parts
and change gear ratios for different circumstances and for its
greater range of ratios.

As it is, neither system is ideal. It is a mystery to me that
after 100 years no one has come up with a better system than either
of those.

By the way, the figures for low efficiency of hub gears must
refer to 5 speed and 7 speed gears which drive through two or
three sets of epicyclic gears. I think the friction figures I
have seen give a lowest efficiency of 85% for a Shimano 7 speed
driving through 3 sets of gears, all on their least efficient
setting, at the same time.

The equivalent derailleur gear would have the chain on the inside
front sprocket, cranked into an S curve to go over the far outside
back sprocket, and I don't think it would be much better, under an equal

I still say the typical derailleur, on an old bike, after normal
wear and dirt have taken their toll, will have at least as much
friction as an enclosed drive. While the enclosed drive does
not deteriorate, it gets smoother as it gets older.

I am assuming both get the same care: a shot of light oil once
or twice a year.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by Randy on 10/13/2000 at 11:55:13 PM
I'm here, now and then. :-) There's a scan of the S-A efficiency graph from _Bicycling Science_ on my website at http://www.rickadee.net/'zephyrus/s-a/s-a.html

The original article was in the British journal "Engineering," which the U.C. Berkeley engineering library has. The next time I'm down there I'll photocopy the whole article (and add any interesting sections to my page...)

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by Tom Faust on 10/15/2000 at 9:22:42 PM
Although most of engineering education has been anecdotal, I have to agree with Grant. I have seen the same motorcycle chains he has. As Grant says, "I cannot repeal the laws of physics". True, but it is well to remember that those writng "advocacy" articles and doing "science" to support them frequently rescind the Rule of Reason.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by Keith on 10/16/2000 at 6:40:12 AM
In all serousness you guys should get the earlier study and provide it to Frank Berto. There will be a corrected and updated "Dancing Chain" at some point, and it would be great to have the record set straight on the issue of "friction boxes." I leave it to those of you who are engineers -- I don't think I could write persuasively on this issue - just looking at a cutaway of an SA hub gives me a headache (but I love 'em all the same, and use them every day).

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Epicyclic efficiency (or lack thereof) posted by Grant on 10/19/2000 at 7:51:38 PM
Can you spell "Chauvinism"? If you can't ask Frank Berto and
his friends, I'm sure they can.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   53 Raleigh Sports 9 speed? posted by: Jim on 10/10/2000 at 8:53:01 PM
Picked up an interesting Raleigh Sports today. Interesting enough it has a 53 SA AW three speed hub with three sprockets and an English derailer(name starts with a c I believe, I'll have to take a look in the morning) hanging off from it. Dyno hub front with the lights. Decent original chrome. Decent paint. Any ideas if this is a stock set up or an added item. I should have photos tomorrow. Thanks jIm

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   53 Raleigh Sports 9 speed? posted by Jim on 10/12/2000 at 3:43:01 PM
Are you also saying the Cycle Benelux derailer and additional three gear are common? I've never seen it before.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   53 Raleigh Sports 9 speed? posted by Mike Bamford on 10/11/2000 at 2:16:35 AM
Take a look at the 1962 Raleigh catalogue on the "Retro
Raleighs" site - www.speakeasy.org/'tabula/raleigh/
There is a Lenton model called the "convertible" which had
a SA three speed coupled with a two speed Cyclo Benelux
derailleur attached. This of course gives 6 speeds. I have
a 1951 Raleigh Sports with a similar set up but with a three
speed Cyclo block(freewheel)attached to a 4 speed SA thus
giving 12 speeds. Folks must have seen this type of conversion and decided to "retro fit" these units to update
their bikes to compete with the multiple gear derailleur
systems becoming more common in the late 50's and early 60's
. The 3 speed block is a tight fit and needs a couple of
additional washers to give clearance and the "barrel nut"
has been modified to include a shoulder on the hexagon
portion in order(I think) to clamp the rear changer to the
drop outs more effectively. I'm having problems at the moment trying to locate new jockey wheel cones for the
rear mech. It is a 1/8 " chain version stamped with "Cyclo
Three Speed". If nothing turns up short term then I'll use
a modern nylon 3/32 wheel with spacers and see how it goes.
Good Luck with the bike.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   53 Raleigh Sports 9 speed? posted by Jim on 10/11/2000 at 7:32:45 PM
After closer inspection, your right. It is actually a 59. The derailer is a Cyclo Benelux. Any idea on value. A photo can be seen at http://bikeyard.home.mindspring.com/sports I have other photos as well

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   53 Raleigh Sports 9 speed? posted by mike bamford on 10/12/2000 at 8:10:14 AM
Generally speaking this type of "sit-up-and-beg"(This is a
reference to appearance of bike with straight handlebars)
roadster is quite cheap to buy in the UK. Prices over here
tend not to start climbing through £100 barrier until you
are dealing with 1900 - 1930's bikes. For example I paid
£1-00(yes! one pound sterling)for my Raleigh Sports and have been given/retrieved from river,skip etc another three.
Next to shoppers and folders they are the "low men on the
totem pole" bikes around here. I don't know a great deal about prices in the States but my impression from this
discussion group has been they can be equally inexpensive
over there. Speaking from a purely selfish point of view, I
hope they never become "investment portfolio" material so that I can continue to indulge without worry/financial
constraints. Keep up the good work.

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   53 Raleigh Sports 9 speed? posted by Grant on 10/12/2000 at 11:33:00 AM
Mike I'm with you. I recently started buying, fixing up and
riding old bicycles and I am having a ball. Due to my age (50)
and figure (stylish stout) I stick to the traditional road
models. In my area of Southern Ontario Canada I have been able
to buy several English 3 speed models for between $1 and $20.
They are all from the 60's and 70's and are still fairly common.
On the other hand the American balloon tire jobs are nearly unknown.
I found one JC Higgins girls' model which is in poor shape.
It seems that for our American friends the domestic models are
common while the English imports are rather rare, except in the

One thing you may be able to help with is repair parts. It seems
they are hard to find in the US. I have been told that in Britain
it is not uncommon for stocks of old parts to be thrown out when
a bike shop closes or moves, they are so little valued.

If you felt inclined I am sure you could provide a valuable
service furnishing parts to enthusiasts like the ones who read
this board.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   53 Raleigh Sports 9 speed? posted by Mike Bamford on 10/13/2000 at 1:53:11 AM
The Cyclo Benelux mechanism was a common feature of many
40's - 70's bikes in 2,3,4 and 5 speeds. However it was not
common to mix and match hub gears and deraileur systems.The
only "official" version I have seen is in the catalog I
referred to earlier. I've asked my LBS(ex Raleigh 5* dealer) about this and he cannot recall any particular models.
The illusion that spares are "thrown" away was probably true until the mountain bike boom of the 80's/90's. A lot
of traditional shops had by that time succumbed to the
pressures of economic reality and closed or diversified
into other areas. With the arrival of mountain biking a lot
of high profile shops opened up and stacked'em high and sold'm cheap. No spares though! The surviving traditional
shops competed likewise and as "space was money", again, spares with little turnover were shown the door or stocks never renewed. The best place nowadays for spares for old bikes are the "cycle jumbles" arranged by local clubs or
members of the Veteran Cycle Club - http://www.v-cc.org.uk
Check out the site and join the club - there are quite a few North American members. Some of the members operate cycle spares supply as a full time business - shipping around the world.
Nice to hear from somebody in southern Ontario. I was at school over there in the late 50's in Toronto down on the
"lakeshore". Great memories - holidays in "North Bay" and
at this time of year the spectacular colour display of the
"Fall" leaves. You lucky lad!
Keep Smiling

AGE / VALUE:   Hercules B-type four 3 speed rear hub(I wish they offered these in an alloy shell, bu posted by: ChristopherRobin on 10/9/2000 at 3:31:59 PM
I opened up up the rear Hercules (B- type four) three speed-hub to overhaul it. I really love these hubs! These have a threaded driver and the cones are thick and long wearing. The bearing surfaces are tough as nails. It has the flats on the left hand ball cup, so I put it in the vise and spun the wheel and out came the whole inner catrridge and straight into the parts cleaner it went. This has a metal hinged oil cap and I just like the inside looks of these hubs. This is a copy of the Sturmey-Archer A.W. hub, only it says "Hercules Cycle and Motor B type four" on the shell. The parts are interchaingable! Same hub. I am not certain if these were made at the Sturmey-Archer plant and simply badged Hercules or what? Hercules was a seperate company up until sometime in the early 1960's and perhaps they had tooled up to make this hub themselves. Brampton Fittings did the same. They even copied the S.W.hub as well. Brampton's motto was "We don't make bicycles, we make bicycles possible!" My question, Did Hercules and Brampton make these A.W. clones like the the B-type four hub or did Sturmey-Archer make it themselves? These are interchangable, but not exactly alike. Correct me if I am off base here, but it looks to me like the Hercules hub is machined and the Sturmey-Archer is cold formed or something like that? Same hubs, same period in time, diffrent metals, (or) a diffrent manufacturing technique? Why are these two versions diffrent? What happened to all this tooling when Raleigh bought up Hercules and made the Hercules bicycle name into a B-grade Raleigh? The pre-Raleigh Hercules is a nice bike! Cool crowns on the down tube! Says "Hercules" I only have a Hercules Tourist in maroon but I want to say,this is unique and a cool old bike.(I had to tell the church rummage sale helper that it was a good solid, saleable bike and that I wanted it, and if she ever got in more to put them out for sale and not cordon it off like it was unworthy except for the trash.) (I got it for $5.00 because new bikes were going for $14.95) This bike has the Hercules full ballbearing pedals, Lovely pedals!!!! the H crank,the oiler in the bottom bracket and the way cool Hercules 3 speed shifter! Of course, no rear rack, or bell or lights. (the god of old bicycles thinks this is a funny thing to do to me! I never find 'em with racks!) The frame goemetry is diffrent too on this bike. The tubing is thicker and the angles are diffrent the top tube goes way back and the seat post is at a angle, big time! This will take one of those crazy, unidentified L shaped seat posts I have been keeping for eons. Nothing in the fleet will take this particular size of L shaped seat post! This Hercules will! and it looks great. I am saying that these take a larger seat post than the usual Raleigh. Nothing is stretched or machined here. I do not like the bend in the handlebars on the left curve. The brakes are diffrent too. I believe that Hercules made these brakes. However these really resemble Raleigh's brakes with one exception. There is a circular collar like washer where the center bolt goes through. Chromed and really classy. So the brakes have me stumped. I have a N.O.S.front brake cable in the package for front brakes and it reads Raleigh, Perry, Bayless-Wiley. I thought it was a strange way to package replacement cable. It is a Raleigh old style cable. But were all these diffrent brakes that much in common? Another company that copied the A.W.hub was Steyr or Steyria. I would like to know the untold story with that also. Can't wait to get this one rebuilt and ride it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:  Hercules Tourist posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/9/2000 at 4:26:27 PM
There is a cross or a plus sign in the center o the badge. It is not the "T" in tourist because that is below. How many old bikes have crowns in the decals?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  Hercules Tourist posted by sam on 10/10/2000 at 6:42:50 PM
Can't help you with your questions but there is a book on e-bay that might hold the answers,#460604935

AGE / VALUE:   Hercules B-type four 3 spped rear hub posted by: ChristopherRobin on 10/9/2000 at 3:31:59 PM
I opened up up the rear Hercules (B- type four) three speed-hub to overhaul it. I really love these hubs! These have a threaded driver and the cones are thick and long wearing the bearing surfaces are tough as nails. It has the flats so I put it in the vise and spun the wheel and out came the whole inner catrirge and straight into the parts cleaner it went. This has a metal hinged oil cap and I just like the inside looks of these hubs. This is a Sturmey-Archer A.W. hub, only it says "Hercules Cycle and Motor B type four" on the shell. The parts are interchaingable! Same hub. I am not certain if these were made at the Sturmey-Archer plant and simply badged Hercules or what. Hercules was a seperate company up until sometime in the early 1960's and perhaps they had tooled up to make this hub themselves. Brampton Fittings did the same. They even copied the S.W.hub as well.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Hercules B-type four 3 spped rear hub posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/9/2000 at 4:20:14 PM
Sorry for the extra posting and a half.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Fixed my Raleigh Sports! posted by: JohnM on 10/9/2000 at 12:37:18 PM
I finally figured out a way to fix the annoying bent crank on my '55 Raleigh Sports. I got it off easily enough, thanks to excellent advice on Sheldon Brown's web site. Then the problem: how to bend back such a heavy piece of steel without scuffing up the chrome? I ended up wrapping electrical tape around the middle to protect the chrome, and taping quarters to each end of it to provide extra stand-off. I used clamps to hold it in place inside a large piece of angle iron. Then I put a giant C-clamp on the middle, and torqued it down as hard as I could. Unclamped it, pulled the tape off, and ... it's nearly perfect! I hammered the cotter back in, and celebrated by going for a long ride and enjoying the Fall foliage. What a nice, smooth, quiet ride, and a perfect morning to enjoy it.

There is a moral here, though - you can never be quite sure of what you're buying on ebay. This bike looked good in the photos, and in fact it does have excellent chrome, but it also had a bent fork and a bent crank. I don't blame the seller, since it was obvious the bike hadn't been ridden in years, if not decades. I was lucky that I live within driving distance of Sheldon's shop, Harris Cyclery - they are willing and able to straighten a fork on these old classics. Everything is set up great now, but if I were in this for the money I would have really taken a bath on this one.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Fixed my Raleigh Sports! posted by Keith on 10/10/2000 at 11:44:53 AM
Overall I have not had great luck buying bikes on Ebay or elsewhere over the internet. Problem # 1 is sellers who are less than accurate about condition, and fuzzy pics don't help the buyer much here. I had one where the seller admitted to some rust on one specific area on the bicycle, only to receive a bike that was basically rusted everywhere. Problem # 2 is unseen problems that sellers probably don't even know about. I bought one bike that was great from the outside, but had pretty bad internal rust inside the frame. Too scary to ride, this one's now a wall hanger. Lesson -- ask about the inside of the frame. Problem # 3 is rough handling by UPS. I recently got a road bike that undoubtedly left the seller in near-new condition, but is slightly out of alignment due, I believe, to a side impact to the front fork. I had the same thing happen to a nice road frame -- dropout bent in. Fixable, just like yours, but these problems detract from the bargain and add to the cost/time investment in the bike. And I'm sure sellers have their own woes, no-pay or late-pay buyers the most obvious problem. Anyway, I'm glad you got your Raleigh fixed!!

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Fixed my Raleigh Sports! posted by JohnM on 10/11/2000 at 1:25:22 PM
Yes, I came out alright in the end -- it's a rare Royal blue with all the original options: B66, dynohub, SA headlight/taillight/battery holder, and alloy kickstand, plus no rust. Just took a little more time and money than I expected. I'd probably buy again over ebay if (1) it was a bike I really wanted, (2) The seller ratings look good, and (3) the pictures are clear and detailed. But I'd be pretty nervous about bidding more than a few hundred dollars for something I can't touch first. And I was lucky this time, but I don't know if I'd trust UPS for a bike that is really immaculate or NOS.

AGE / VALUE:   Rocket posted by: Nick on 10/8/2000 at 10:27:38 PM
I recently got a british bike that appears to be from the 50's. The front tage sais Rocket made in england. the bike has a hercales 3 spd. rear hub B type. the bike also has crome fenders and a solid bike rack. The frame has built in greas point by the front sproket. I was woundering if anybody new anything about this bike or the company that made it because i have never heard of a company named Rocket

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Rocket posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/9/2000 at 8:48:02 AM
This may be a Hercules Cycle and Motor made bike because of the Hercules rear 3 speed hub. It should say Hercules on the bike somewhere.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Rocket posted by Nick on 10/9/2000 at 1:15:57 PM
The other thing that i forgot to mention is that the bike has stabolizer bars or crash bars in the front. I am not shure if that is something sombody added or it was original.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1967 CCM Grand Touring posted by: Grant on 10/7/2000 at 2:03:24 PM
Made another lucky find today. It is a 1967 CCM Grand Touring
3-speed roadster. This is a Canadian made competitor for the
Raleigh 3-speed "Sport" type roadster. The similarities and
differences are interesting. At first glance it looks like
the British product with a straight bar diamond frame, 26" wheels
and Raleigh side pull brakes. The rear hub is Sturmey-Archer AW stamped 67 2.
Look a little closer and differences start to jump out. The wheelbase is
longer and the forks have more rake. The handlebars are higher.
The rims are Canadian made and the tires are Dunlop made in Canada.
Instead of a finger trigger there is a console shifter on the top
bar. The brake levers are decorated with green metalflake plastic
grips to match the paint job. The finish is a light metallic
green with chrome foil emblems. The chain guard is a big streamlined
chrome affair. The fenders are also chrome. It has a Union
generator set with chrome head and tail light.
It lookslike a British roadster with a touch of American flash.
All in all an interesting companion to my Raleigh Superbe.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1967 CCM Grand Touring posted by Fred on 10/8/2000 at 9:33:53 AM
Good show Grant: I would like to see apicture of your CCM. I have a CCM Elan' but don't know the year since it has a Shimano 3 speed hub which isn't dated. My CCM is a mixte frame model but the overall configuration looks very British. If your components are like mine, you will find the plating to be of better quality than is found on Raleigh bikes. My CCM sat out in the Florida damp for years and the chrome looks like new. Maybe its SS, I'll have to put a magnet on it sometime. One thing that is sub-par on my bike is that the decals are paper and not in good condition so I reproduced them on my PC. The chain guard on my bike sounds like tha same as yours and is one of the nicest features of the bike. Take a look at my CCM at: "fredhaj.tripod.com", in the "Various makes gallery".

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1967 CCM Grand Touring posted by Grant on 10/9/2000 at 7:43:48 AM
Hi Fred, I went and had a look at the picture of your Elan.
It looks almost the same as a 1983 Eaton Road King I have. I
stayed up until 2:30 this morning refubishing and reassembling
and now it is almost done.
It appears to have the same frame as yours but slightly different
accessories, for example mine is a 5 speed with Shimano
deraileur. It has chrome fenders with a smooth squared off

I know mine was made in Canada with some imported parts. The
wheel rims are clearly marked "Made in Canada" "Sun Wheels Ltd/Ltee"
"26x1 3/8" "12 1982" and a serial number. They look like the smooth
(not ribbed) rims Raleigh used on their cheaper lines.If you examine
your rims do you find any similar ID markings?

Your reference to Raleigh wheels and fenders does not sound right.
So far as I know CCM did not use Raleigh parts except for
Sturmey Archer hubs and possibly a few other parts. The ones I
have seen all have their own rims and fenders. The typical CCM
fender looks like a Raleigh style but is wider and does not have
the little chrome nubbin added on the front peak.

Also CCM made their own seats as a rule. They used a 3 piece
covering, with a horizontal seam along each side. Often they
used 2 colors of vinyl for example black blue or red in the
middle with white sides.

Your bike is probably from the 70's. It may have had some parts
swapped onto it before you got it. Have a look at the rims and
let me know what you find.

I know that in that time period all North American bike manufacturers
were hurting. This was a transitional period when more and more
parts and bikes were coming from Japan and Taiwan.A mixture of
domestic and imported parts was common. But to have a mix of Canadian
Japanese British and American parts on one bike semms to be going too
far LOL.

Does your bike have a one piece crank? This was a CCM feature
for many years. Also a chain wheel with CCM cut into it.

I hope this does not come across as nit picky or critical because
that is not my intent.I am interested in the historical details
of these old bikes. It is very hard to find info on Canadian
bikes on the web. I hope I can find out some things from you,
and possibly give you some insight into your bike's history.

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1967 CCM Grand Touring posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/9/2000 at 4:34:40 PM
Despite many trips to Canada's bike shops and owning a few old catalogs I still fail to understand the elusive soul of old C.C.M. bikes. I was blinded by Raleigh and now its gone. They were something else! Canada's own, "Schwinn Bicycle Company"

Why are there no books or anything like a book in print about C.C.M.? People are writing about everything these days.

   Weird Coincidence Department posted by Grant on 10/9/2000 at 5:16:53 PM
Get a load of this message from this board one year ago:

Subject: CCM Monster
Entered on: Sep 7, 1999 14:14
Entered by: Keith (velohund@yahoo.com)

While traveling over the holiday weekend I came across an odd 3-speed: a Canadian-made "CCM." It was
like a monster hybrid of a Schwinn and a Raleigh. The frame is lugged, sort of. The head tube is one
piece with lugs for the top and down tubes. The bottom bracket shell is lugged, but it's the oversize
American style. The seat stays bolt at the top using the seatpost binder, like a DL-1, and are pinned at
the dropouts, like my Forever. The chainring is a lovely "CCM" cutout pattern, but the cranks are
one-piece American style. The rear hub is a SA AW, date stamped 1967. The shifter is the real kicker
-- a long, knob-ended Schwinn Orange Krate-style thing that looks like it belongs in a 60s muscle car.
Beautiful big heavy-gauge chromed chain guard that's strong enough to stand on. Not a very attractive
bike overall, but interesting how it picked up elements of both English and U.S. made bikes of the
period. Anyone else come across these? No, I didn't buy it.

That is my 1967 CCM GT to the life. What do you think of that?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1967 CCM Grand Touring posted by Warren on 10/9/2000 at 7:49:48 PM
The soul of the CCM bicycle for many CCM collectors started (and sometimes ended) with the CCM Flyer and Road Racer, two bikes that dominated six day races and club rides in the 20's and 30's and were manufactured up until the early 60's. These bikes gave the the company a "caché" that enhanced their overall reputation & sales. Early examples of all CCMs were beautifully made, each component branded and often numbered...even the internal wedges on the coaster brakes were branded. They made all of their own components. I've heard two stories...one is that when the company shut down their Weston (Toronto) plant in the early 70's, most of the plant documentation was lost. The second story is that some of it made its way to a tech museum...I don't know which one. If anyone wants to talk CCM's, feel free to contact me offlist, I know a few people who know a great deal about these classic bikes.I must get off my butt and post some images of a couple of nice examples that I own.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1967 CCM Grand Touring posted by Grant on 10/10/2000 at 9:33:08 AM
My father did some work in the old CCM plant (as an electrician)
in the 40's or very early 50's. It was a big plant but what
sticks in his mind is the warehouse or storage area. There were
thousands of brand new CCM's hanging from the ceiling. They removed
the pedals, turned the handlebars sideways and hung them up by the
front wheel. Rows and rows of bikes waiting to be packed and shipped.

   C.C.M. posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/11/2000 at 5:21:53 PM
Did he take any pictures of the C.C.M.place? Can you ask and let us know? I would like to see them if he took any.

   RE:C.C.M. posted by Grant on 10/12/2000 at 4:21:28 AM
Sorry no pics. Maybe Warren (see above) can help. I wouldn't
mind seeing some myself if anyone posted them on the web.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   old delivery bicycle posted by: William on 10/7/2000 at 12:17:14 PM
I have recently purchased an old english delivery bike with (rod) brakes. There is a frame built over the front wheel to hold a basket or so. Both front and rear wheels are the same size, 26x 1 3/4 The logo on front of frame looks like a big H. Has anybody got any ideas of who the manufacturer is?

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   old delivery bicycle posted by Grant on 10/7/2000 at 2:53:10 PM
Could it be a Hercules? Check out Sheldon Brown's site for
much info on British bikes, the address is in the links list.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   old delivery bicycle posted by sam on 10/9/2000 at 6:15:02 AM
The Hercules headbadge on my bikes have a big "H" and the word hercules under it.I have seen headbadges that were rubbed from the front basket till you couldn't read them.Some Hercules had the name imprinted in the front sproket also,but may have to remove the chain gard to read it.Old hercules bikes were made by hercules(pre 1960)so also check the rear hub,it may be hercules made.Does your bike have one or two top tubes?--sam

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   old delivery bicycle posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/9/2000 at 4:44:18 PM
This could be a Royal Enfield made in Redditch. I found a Royal Enfield from 1937 and it has this size Westwood rims on it. But then again so did Raleigh and other companies use this size rim. Tires are available from your local Schwinn store because Schwinn brought out a bike a few years back that uses this size and it just so happens to fit the English rim. Usually Schwinn does not interchange at all, this is an exception.
Could be Raleigh, Hercules, Phillips, anything! Can you send in a picture somehow?

AGE / VALUE:   Wanted: free advice posted by: Bruce on 10/7/2000 at 8:38:38 AM
I currently ride a blue early 70's triumph. I am very happy with it but I am interested in the DL.1 bikes I hear of. I am 6'2" with a 33" inseam. I think it would be a good fit. I need information on the price range I should expect to pay for a bike of this sort in good condition. Note: I plan on short rides of 2-20 miles. thanks in advance

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Wanted: free advice posted by Kevin C. on 10/7/2000 at 12:17:47 PM
Do a search on eBay to get a general idea, but I have seen nice riders from the 1960s and early 70s sell for less than $200. The earlier DL-1s, with full chaincases, racks and original lighting systems typically bring more. Raleigh Tourists came in different frame sizes so be sure to check that out, since you're tall.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Wanted: free advice posted by Grant on 10/8/2000 at 4:02:00 PM
Hi Bruce, have you adjusted your seat and handlebars?
The seat post clamp can be flipped so the seat is behind
the post and the seat rails can slide back on the clamp.
I am about your size and weigh 288. The handlebars could be
a little higher to suit me but I would need a longer stem
or bars with more of a bend.

I think the English models were designed for pale weedy narrow
chested English youths who were raised on tea
and cigarettes. This would account for their obsession with light
weight among other things. No doubt they realise that if they had
to pedal a coaster brake 75 lb Schwinn it would kill them.

I'm looking forward to putting my "new" CCM in commission.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Wanted: free advice posted by Grant on 10/8/2000 at 4:21:01 PM
Please excuse above outburst LOL. I meant to suggest that you
should be able to get a comfortable riding position using the
normal seat and handleber adjustments as noted above plus the
usual moves of sliding the seat and handlebar posts up and rotating
the bars in their stem.

I have mine set up pretty well though I wish I could get the
bars a little higher and that they were wider. No doubt I could
replace the bars and stem and get what I want.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Is Brooks back in business? posted by: Mike Q. on 10/7/2000 at 6:23:04 AM
I notice that you can now order the full range of saddles from Persons at original prices. What's going on here, a bit of market manipulation?

WANTED:   raleigh commando posted by: andy on 10/6/2000 at 3:55:45 AM
has anybody out there got a raleigh commando picture.
come to think of it,has anybody got a complete bike for sale.
many thank's

   RE:WANTED:   raleigh commando posted by Richard on 10/8/2000 at 2:09:33 AM
Sorry I can't help with the photo, but I did own a new one in 1976, a good bike, as long a you don't stand on the pedals, the twist grip gear change was never very good.