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Archived: English Roadsters

FOR SALE:   dreigang, gang posted by: ken on 6/27/2002 at 7:57:53 PM
Still need a home for Mom&Dad's ca. '77 Raleigh Sports- hers with S3C coaster. Pictures on request; any reasonable offer?
Also, a men's Livingstone made in the Netherlands with a '55 S-A, complete and rideable but somewhat the worse for wear.

   RE:FOR SALE:   dreigang, gang posted by David on 6/28/2002 at 3:03:59 AM
Where is this fabled trio's present home?

   RE:RE:FOR SALE:   dreigang, gang posted by ken on 6/28/2002 at 5:57:22 PM
thanks David, I knew better. Northern Illinois is the current locus.

   RE:RE:FOR SALE:   dreigang, gang posted by ken on 6/28/2002 at 5:59:13 PM
thanks David, I knew better. Northern Illinois is the current locus.

AGE / VALUE:    Wheres Harold "Oily" Karslake when we need him? posted by: ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 6/27/2002 at 6:57:20 PM
At the next swap meet we need to have an oil exposition! Every kind of oil ever considered to be acceptable to go into a bicycle hub. Do you have a special favorite home brewed motor oil concoction? Come hawk your wares! It's the return of the snake oil! Only this time for bicycles. Plus we can have a Sturmey- Archer overhaul clinic for those poor souls that chose the wrong gunky lubricant. Kits of replacement parts could be offered! Pawl springs in little packets!

My bike shop buddy looked me straight in the eye and said Only genuine Sturmey Archer cycle oil. I said You can't get it! He said "shop about!"

Well, Sheldon Brown offers it, who else does I don't know right now.

Used motor oil for the chain( only the chain) let it cake on and leave it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    Wheres Harold posted by Ray on 6/27/2002 at 8:21:31 PM
Once a year in April we have in Philadelphia a Brit Bike weekend where they always have a clinic for things like this. Last year is was how to tear down and rebuild your Sturmey. I have friends who put on these clinics so the next time I see one of them I will ask their opinion.

AGE / VALUE:   Yes, I saw Men in Black! posted by: Chris on 6/27/2002 at 6:43:36 PM
With some of the big time collector dudes I have met I would not for a minute doubt that some of these guys are in cahoots with aliens to arrange "vintage bicycle abduction"

I mean, Where are all the old bikes? Never do I see a bike in the trash! It just stoped! Bike famine here in my neck of the world. Big time.

Where are the English 3 speeds?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Yes, I saw Men in Black! posted by Ray on 6/27/2002 at 8:30:45 PM
You can still find bikes but I agree they are harder and more expensive and here is why. When I got into this hobby it was pretty easy to find bikes on the curb, at garage/tag sales, flea markets and even have people bring them to me for a good home. I used to put ads in the paper and get several calls and for $20-$30 walk away with a great bike. Now you have ebay, Antiques Roadshow and every local publication telling the public that their old bicycles are worth a fortune. The pendulum has swung the oposite way and everyone who has a rusted hulk that they bought as a kid thinks it is worth a bag of gold. I hear it all the time now at flea markets and garage sales. If I ask for old bikes I now get, yeah I have an old Schwinn Hollywood, there worth a bundle aren't they. Or I get the "Can you tell me what it is worth" and the occassional I have one but not selling it. As they say information is power. Now you have to get past the thought that every bike older than 20 years is worth a lot of money. That is a tough one especially when they know you are a collector.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1951 Rudge posted by: P.C. Kohler on 6/27/2002 at 4:52:32 PM
Another Rudge? Afraid so. And the last (I swear!). Yesterday my first eBay cycle purchase arrived. Beautifully packed. Perfect condition. So UPS can get it right.

1951 Rudge De Luxe Sports Tourist, no. 124 gents. Serial number 70721 BD. Sturmey-Archer AG dynothree hub dated 51 8. 23" frame. All very top of the line: fork lock, “Dyno-Lux” (with the cool lightening bolt transfer on the battery tube too!) with the old style headlamp and that tiny little taillamp, Rudge’s special maroon colour, Brooks B-66 saddle etc. etc. Gold lining (double stripes) on every surface. Bakelite pump is colour matched of course! Full gearcase with chain oiler. Cable brakes. “RI” marked alloy propstand.

This was a real garage queen; almost everything is near mint to good and original except for the rear tyre which is a Sears Allstate. I forgot that Sears made cycle tyres and darn good ones too. The front one is the original Dunlop Roadster (the best!). The maroon paint has a few chips and is quite oxodised but responding to polishing compound and Turtle Wax. It’s not as lusterous as black though which is intriguing. You can buff out English black cycle enamel a treat. This brown stuff doesn’t quite cut it. The dyno-hub works fine; even the bulbs work. Original and kinda funky “RI” marked grips: grey rubbed spongy and oversized. Deteriorating beyond repair alas. Only defect: the North Road Raised handlebar is bent on the left side. Need to find a replacement for this. The B66 is a bit weary but can be Proofhided back from the dead.

Cost: $236 in a flurry of bidding. OK, that’s a lot but I just don’t find the $10 wonders some of you guys do! A deal? Maybe not but this is a sweet machine that’s going to get shopped for an overhaul and then ridden a lot. For the first time it appears in 51 years.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1951 Rudge posted by Andrew H. on 6/27/2002 at 7:09:27 PM
i didn't know these Rudge's were so desired,(are they a Raleigh brand?), I know where there's a 1960 model, a little rough, but only $25.00... I think I'll buy it and see about getting it running. Who was Rudge marketed to and how scarce are they in the U.S.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1951 Rudge posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/27/2002 at 8:20:33 PM
Rudge-Whitworth were swallowed up by Raleigh in 1943 and with Humber formed the "Big Three" of Raleigh Cycles. They were essentially the same quality, built in the same works but had their own distinctive features. See Sheldon Brown's site for more details. The reason Raleigh had Humber and Rudge was that, with their network of exclusive dealers, they were essentially competing against themselves. You could buy a Raleigh from one dealer but if you wanted a Rudge, you couldn't. As for being "desirable", I just like Rudges because of the motorcycle connection, the cool "hand" symbol and because around here (Washington, DC) they are really scarce. And Rudge is just so... damn English sounding a name for a cycle!! I'd nominate Humbers as being the rarest of the three, maybe it depends on country and region. I've never seen a Humber in these parts.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1951 Rudge posted by chris on 6/29/2002 at 6:58:54 PM
Humbers are way cool but Sunbeam is king of the roadsters.

AGE / VALUE:   Tires and tubes posted by: Geoff Rogers on 6/27/2002 at 3:52:32 PM
Does anyone know a source for 26 X 1-3/8" Michelin tires in the US? Tubes also?
I bought some Taiwanese-made tubes with Wood valves in England a year or so ago and put them on my Raleigh Record Ace, and so far they have not leaked. I am running used Semperits that bike. They are great but I don't think they are made any more.
A good source of metal-stem tubes is old Austrian-built Sears 3-speeds. They had the Semperits with good Semperit steel-stem tubes. The bikes are worthless, although pretty good, and lots of them get thrown out, still with good original tires.
As to the old Dunlop tubes, my Dunelt has one on the rear with eleven patches. It does not leak, unbelievably!
Geoff Rogers

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by: P.C. Kohler on 6/26/2002 at 2:04:04 PM
Well, "shaken but not stirred", my 1949 Rudge arrived more or less intact yesterday. Despite the best efforts of UPS. Anyone doubting the toughness of an English three-speed would do well to look at the condition of the carton and packing.

I bought this from the Cyclerecycler website. Excellent people (Bob Gleason) to do business with. Packed properly (well until UPS got hold of it!), instructions, even a proper SA tool enclosed for re-assembly, spare B72 saddle and a great Baycliff seatbag. Cost $150

Anyway, she's a diamond in the rough: Sturmey Archer AW hub and GH6 front Dynohub both stamped 49 4, 23" frame, 26" wheels, rod brakes, hockeystick chainguard, the battered remains of a B66. The headlamp is Sturmey Archer, a "sports" model that strikes me as newer (mid 50s) than the cycle; I have a NOS 1949 vintage one en route from England. Dryrotted non original tyres.

The black enamel is quite rough in spots, but I am resisting any notion of a repaint. Getting gratifying results with polishing compound and little touch-ups. Might try polishing compound on the touch up areas to "blend in" the new paint. What's remarkable is the condition of the transfers and lining, most of which is intact but the gold of course has turned mud brown. May see if Lloyds stock the right replacements. The amount of lining on these old machines is wonderful: fork, stays, all tubes etc. with gold/red lining. There is even a dollup of gold paint atop the front mudguard introducing the chrome "bullet" and another gold band separating the white blackout section of the rear mudguard from the black.

Another interesting aspect is the amount of black-painted fittings as opposed to chrome-plating: all of the rod brake fitments on the frame are black. The chrome plating seems substandard on the Raleigh marked Westrick rims, almost a dull nickel finish. Perchance wartime economies still in force or just a lower end Rudge?

All good fun. Need to find some decent tyres for her; the Continentals at the local shop have some ghastly modern tread pattern. Maybe Kendas? I'd kill for a carton of Dunlop Roadster tyres and Airseal tubes!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by Mark R. on 6/26/2002 at 3:21:52 PM
I too was thinking of buying that bike. I bought Bobs' brand new DL-1 a couple of months ago, and happily I drove there and picked up the bike in person. Bob is a great guy, and you should see all the wonderful things he has in his shop! I can't tell you because you'd cry, but trust me he has a little "museum" of great goodys you'd die for.I personally havn't (yet) had any problems with UPS, but it is far nicer to meet the people one buys the bikes from.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 6/26/2002 at 6:00:57 PM
I would go with the Continentals before Kendas. Kenda is a good tire still. Some of these size tires are thinner or not as balloonish and these give a harsher ride. Giant has their name on a 26 X 1 3/8 tire and they are not as good as other tires.

The airseal tubes were offered in period correct/original Woods valves that was used in England. They were a pain in the butt, leaked and when the small rubber seal wore out they leaked ever faster. Sheldon mentions Woods valves at his web site glossery. If you can find tubes with Presta valves in this size use them instead. The Presta Valve is a better valve than the Schrader type.
The English supplied these bikes with Schrader valves for bikes sent to the States so you probably have a all metal schrader valve it this bike. They look great and you can re- place the valve core with one from an auto parts store. The little tool that you use to unscrew it and all that.
Pick up a F.W. or better yet a F.M. four speed hub and get it into the rear wheel just be sure to have spoke holes match up. 36 with 36 or 40 with 40. You'll need a trigger labeled four speed or one that says 3 or 4 speed. Have you gone searching for new front hub cones, bottombracket cups? how about a bottom bracket spindle and new cotter pins? As nice as this is, most assuradly it is ariving at your door needing cones,a spindle, a re- greased headset. The Sturmey- Archer A.W.shold be overhauled too. How are the pawl ratchets in the hub.

If everything is fine then go out and enjoy it. Find these parts and in the winter time do the overhaul. By all means get the gold lining re- done but the first and more difficult thing is a bottombracket overhaul. Pitting in the groves is a sure sigh that you need a new cone or bottombracket cup or spindle.

Parts are offered here, and with Sheldon and some others. But you know something?
We never have nailed down the place to get Raleigh 26 TPI cups, and cones and spindles.
I don't know why this is still like this, still spotty. I think you can get front hub cones here at old roads. Look in the parts for sale section here.

We need to put up a page someplace that shows step by step how to overhaul a Rudge, Raleigh, Humber (or whatever) headset.
Step one, step two e.t.c.
show the bike, show and tell about the bearings needed and all that.Then the bottombracket, rear hubs, front hubs.

Show the new folks here how to get the new bike they just got off of e- bay or wherever it came from. Show them how to make it ride'n glide like a new machine.
This is a long overdue project. Lets find and sell the needed parts or arange to have some made. A spindle for example can be turned out by a good machinist.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by mrwelch@u.arizona.edu on 6/26/2002 at 7:54:57 PM
Nothing I've ever had rides better than Continentals. Specialized makes a very good 26x1-3/8 tire ("Trisport"). I see from my web travels that Schwalbe (http://www.schwalbetires.com/Cat3Marathon.html) sells an "EA-3" also. If anybody has tried these, let us know. Never cared much for Kenda tires, wish I could find some 650b (584) tires made by anybody else.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by Matthew on 6/26/2002 at 8:29:11 PM
Well done P.C. (may I call you that?) it sounds like a pretty good machine that you have bought. is it a Pathfinder? We have a 21" 1948 Pathfinder which is a strange maroon colour and which has stainless steel rims. i've been offered more for the rims than I paid for the bike, 310 sterling two years ago, in ride me home condition. It is too large for my wife to ride regularly but she enjoys the odd spin on it so it stays as part of the home fleet. (Along with an even bigger 1930's Herc loop frame which she rides wearing platform shoes.)
Tyres, well I hate to disagree but it has to be Michelin all around, they wear so slowly that 10 years later you will be checking for perishing rather than wear. Tubes, I recommend Michelin AirStop with woods valve, if you want the genuine English feel. Yes they go soft after a few weeks and the older stock will have rubber inserts, which are replaceable but are we worried about a little more maintenance? No. Besides presta and woods schraeder valve pumps don't look right stuck in the frame as they don't fit quite so well on the mounts. Each to his own this is just my suggestion, above all ride it and enjoy the breeze on your face, wearing a helmet as you go.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by Matthew on 6/26/2002 at 8:31:03 PM
Should read £10 sterling not 310 -sorry!

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/26/2002 at 9:57:50 PM
Thanks guys for all the tips!

Much progress on her today; paint work really coming along etc.

I wish I had the technical skill and place to work to give this machine the obviously needed mechanical overhaul Christopher suggests. Alas, it'll have to be an expensive trip to the cycle shop for that. At least the mechanic loves English three-speeds; that means a lot I find.

As for tyres, the Continentals are such good quality, I just wish they made a traditional looking block tread.

Valves. Please a sore issue! I ordered a stack of tubes for the my DL-1 in the late 80s from Nottingham and stupidly asked for Woods valves. An absolute bloody nightmare. That little latex thingy over the valve goes bad and you have an instant, permanent flat. I can't find anyone who sells these latex things so I have 13 tubes stripped of their thingys! First chance I get, I'm putting standard US valves on. Apparently, the Woods valve is used in the Netherlands. They are welcome to them!

Someone asked what model this Rudge is; I don't yet have a Rudge catalogue so don't know. It's basically a standard 26 inch sports type machine but with rod brakes and a front dynohub.

P.C. Kohler, you can call me Peter!

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by David on 6/27/2002 at 11:27:12 AM
Re Chris' suggestion about 4-speed hubs. Sheldon confirmed that you can transplant FW guts into an AW shell (which I plan to do on my DL-1). If the wheel is good, why rebuild it? And you have the benefit of a hub marked "AW," which should deter any thieves who are connoisseurs.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by Jeff R on 6/27/2002 at 11:52:39 AM
The FW hub will drop into An AW shell however the FM hub will not.

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/27/2002 at 1:23:06 PM
Hubs? Listen guys, I can't even get the handlebars back on this baby! The flamming front brake rod WILL NOT (sorry for shouting) stick into the front stirrup tube. It goes in without the little screw adjuster thing inserted (that has a hole for the role to go through) but when it's in, it will not budge. Two hours of effort and profanity has been viewing cable brakes in a whole new light. I even tried replacing the screw adjuster with a new one and no luck. Now I know why I prefer polish paintwork to "mechanicals".

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   My 1949 Rudge posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 6/27/2002 at 6:43:17 PM
You cannot put the F.M. or the F.C. or the A.S.C. into an A.W. marked hub shell. The ball cups are way diffrent. Sheldon is right, listen to him. Yes, Michelin tires are better than Conti's. Grab all the Michelin's or Conti's you can because one day they'll be gone.

In the plumbing section at the hardware store there are small rubber grommets that fit in the Schrader sized hole in the steel wheel rim and you pop these in and they fit. One part over and one part under. kinda like a donut with a ridge in the middle. Anyways these pop into the rim and then you push the presta valve through this and it works great. Not 100% origonal because you cannged tube valves. Big deal. Like I said the Presta valve is as better valve. Get the $1.50 brass adaptor for the Presta valve so you can use it with schrader style pumps. It's a must have this little brass thingie and learn to use it. Garage type compressor air hoses can/ will over inflate your tube and then K- Pow! You ears are ringing, people are running and your tire's flat because you inadvertantly blew your tube. Watch out for a buldge and the tube escaping out and so you need to inflate slowly with a foot or hand pump. Carry extra tubes, leavers(plastic kind) tools in the rear bag.

AGE / VALUE:   First Raleigh roadsters posted by: Mike Evans on 6/26/2002 at 11:31:52 AM
Wanted to know what year Raleigh first made their DL-1, and were any colors other than black offered, I've heard of custom ordered paint ones being produced ?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   First Raleigh roadsters posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 6/26/2002 at 6:04:38 PM
It was made for over 100 years. The bike in the beginning was offered with an anti vibration front fork!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   First Raleigh roadsters posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/26/2002 at 10:04:28 PM
I don't know the exact year the DL-1 came out; I think it was about 1895-98.

As for colours, I think this depended on the market. You could until recently get a DL-1 frame in black, dark green and maroon in Denmark. In the 1950s the Superbe version of the DL-1 came in Raleigh Green (kinda like British racing green). If Rudge made a DL-1 Superbe version, then it might have come in maroon. Then there are the all-chromium plated DL-1 Superbes for the African market.

But at least (to my knowledge) no DL-1s in Bronze Green or Coffee!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   First Raleigh roadsters posted by Geoff Rogers on 6/27/2002 at 3:52:15 PM
Dunelt also made a DL-1. I have a 1966 model, which is my )almost) daily rider. Rides like a Bentley! Unusual features of the Dunelts were chrome fenders and prewar-style handlebars. unlike North Road bars, they do not curve forwards before curving to the rear; they just go straight back, so you really ride upright. The bad news is, your knees can hit during a turn. I have seen two others, both identical. All are black.
Geoff Rogers

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   First Raleigh roadsters posted by Mark R. on 6/27/2002 at 3:53:53 PM
A fellow in a nearby town had a DL-1 in coffe bronze. It is the only one I've ever seen. I offered to buy it, but he just got ignorant with me, and as far as I know it is still moldern' away in his garage.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   "The bike is in the grip of some kook who don't want to sell it." posted by Chris on 6/27/2002 at 7:58:59 PM
One day I'll try to haggle with some ignorant type person like this, and it'll be one nutty loon too many. I'll get the bike, close the deal. Go home park the bike in the living room and have a stroke/heart attack looking at it.
They'll bust in to see why I don't come to the door, discover I'm passed away in the middle of a bracket overhaul with cotterpins in my hands. As they carry me out and sift thru my estate my bike buddy will exclaim. "Look! He managed to get that ignorant guy to sell him that special bike he was talking about!"
Must have been the last thing he did. Poor old Chris ! It killed him."

Or: I reach up, grab the wife and kid with tubes comming out everywhere, the Bible clutching minister looking on as on my deathbed I implore them not to sell the Humber Cobb Tourist.
In plastic sleves, on handlebars are reciepts and letters with notes telling the hellish agrivation I went through to negiotate a purchase of this one or that.
money, travel, situations, freezing cold or near passing out from heat. bee stings, crabby wives, road maps that are no good. Slipping bike racks.(2) I stood there and it slipped out of his hands and he drops it! I caught it, but it hurt! (3)Or decided not to sell them as a pair despite what he said over the phone. (4)Ladies that come up, stick their two cents in and say "It's an antique!" and they try to jack up the price an extra $300.00
A weak wisper is all I could manage, I froze up, before I managed to buy it. Tears streaming as I spoke "You painted this?" I got sorrowful, he asked "Are you Ok?" I was happy and rattling on about the brand of bike and then I got one look at it! I shamed him into a sever price reduction that time! (6)
Sticky, terrible, dust impregnatred black paint, wrong wheels. Oh!
Now dating his daughter so he got to see and possibly buy some or all of the old bike stash! That's doing whatever it takes! He floored me with that statement! Flabbergasted I asked "Is she cute? She was so-so. Later on he flashes her picture. UGH! I don't know how that turned out.

The nicer the bike, the more rare, the crazier I have had to go to get it. I sit there blinking,staring, 16 years back in time I go everything a blurry whirr. I remember the day the fellow refused my 300.00 offer. It stayed there, the guy got "ignorant" with me. I asked How did you get this? The answer? He passed away, she sold it to me for 75.00. or it was thrown out. "How's your back, Chris?
Do you wanna do this clean out? "What do you want out of this?"

What bothers me is these folks can't wait five seconds to get everything out, slap on some addition/ paint and get it on the market so they can get the money from the sale of the property. "Well, Chris, he's eating dinner and we were gonna go out afterwards" "You gotta make it up to my wife, Ok?" My freind, myself, it's late and his wife is fuming and we worked all night to keep it from going to landfill.

I stand there blocked by all this other junk in the way, studying the poor thing in a state of decay and then they get ignorant with me.
One bike pal when he wants to really bother me will exclaim something about me being "ignorant" or "don't be so ignorant!" OOOOHH!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   First Raleigh roadsters posted by Chris on 6/27/2002 at 8:11:16 PM
The dealer shop clock said 1887-1987 100 years of quality. They got mad at the area Raleigh rep for some reason and wildly tore down signs and anything else that said Raleigh. Suddenly they did not sell Raleigh there for some time. The clock was torn down, thrown out. I had wanted it and they had said no, they couldn't sell it. It had to stay on the shop wall. They were so outraged they ingnored my friend who tried to tell them there was a collector who would buy this stuff. Only one sign survived and they told me to "Get it out of there before somebody smashed it!" It has survived and one guy came up to my truck as I was loading it up. I had to fend him off. They were all really crazy there at that shop for awhile. It was kooky!

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  Shop experience posted by Chris on 6/27/2002 at 8:44:40 PM
If I was an employee or had been in that day I can just imagine it. I 'd be throwing myself between angry owners and mechanics trying to stop them! Crying "No, what are you doing? Stop it! I'll buy these signs, that clock!" It would have been bad. They had taken pains to smash stuff and not just take it down and quietly change brands and go to another company. Everybody there was old. This was a true "Old School" shop. They were wildy mad at Raleigh over something. The other guys there got crappy with me for liking/ collecting these bikes. This was in 1987/88 and now this shop is long time defunct. I still have the sign, it's beautiful. My pal there had been a monk in a monastary for years but one day the strain of having to cook and do chores/ work for hundreds of brother monks made him snap. He had a nervous breakdown and would up outside the church and co-owned a bike shop with a partner and they feuded/bickered all the time. I'm there shopping and they're telling each other to go to the devil! He was interesting, I liked him immensly. The stories he told, Man! Then there was the restaurants, places they hung out at/ folks they knew who I met. Talks about religion and that aweful beer! Yuck! The shop moved, then failed, one fellow passed on, my pal was in hosipital and passed on. Times change. I was very lucky that I got to experience this bubble in time at all. It was already late then 1988!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  Shop experience posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/28/2002 at 1:44:58 AM
A lot of people were angry at Raleigh in the late 1980s; traditional cycle shops like Cycles & Sports, Towpath Cycle and District Hardware (Washington DC) which relied on a still wonderful product but less than wonderful marketing or sales support and parts availibility. We owners took it on the shops but it was really Raleigh being "all at sea" during this period. So sad. When Huffy took over their US distribution, I just couldn't believe it. They were dime store bikes that we kids would berate the hapless owners of. Now they were deciding the destiny of Raleigh in North America! Remember when the Heron's Crest lost "Nottingham England" and this was replaced by cross hatches? How cruel. How sad.

P.C. Kohler, noting that of those three beloved Washington cycle shops, only District Hardware remains. The "old" Raleigh took a lot with it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   First Raleigh roadsters posted by Mark R. on 6/29/2002 at 9:16:09 PM
Yeah, well what happened was that I was at a yard sale these people were having, and DAMN I see this pair of handle bars pokin' up though some pile of rags, and I think man! they look like rod brake bars! So, sure enough I ask the lady if I can see the bike in the garage, and she kindly agrees. Well, as I said it is a BEAUTIFUL almost unmolested "Tourist" with the full chain case and the lot! Beautiful. She says,"it a reproduction of an english "bobbies" bike". So, I ask her if her hubby would like to sell it, she says he: "rides it every now and then",and he's not around of course, so I leave my name and number. Natually they never call me, so after a few months I say to myself, "well screw it! I'll go ask him, but they wern't there so I left a letter with a return STAMPED envelope, and ask him if he'd take $250 for it (this was like 10 years ago, so that was very high then, I didn't want to insult him). He takes the time to send the letter back with this message:" I will not now, nor will I ever sell you my bike! Do not ask again!!!". So since then I occationally ride past the house, and the bike is still there. Still in the exact same spot, still covered with rags. It just makes me sick that he will let something wee would love to have and cherish go to shit, but won't sell it for reasonably scratch for God only knows why. He certainly never "rides it every now and then".
I have a mint "Tourist" now, but I always wished he had sold me THAT one.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh knock off handlebar source, 2 posted by: Jorge Üllfig on 6/25/2002 at 5:30:51 PM

In reference to «Raleigh knock off handlebar source» bellow,
I'm also looking for handlebars to replace my old rusty ones
for my everyday bike, and came around two additional brands
and have no idea witch is the best design, these are:

1) 3TTT Sport Inglese Silver anodized handlebars, supposedly Made in EU or Taiwan

2) Priest handlebars by Hsin Lung, Taiwan's best bar maker.

Does anyone know anything about these two,
the Nitto Aluminum North Road bars do seem to be the right way to go
even though they are alloy.

I'll be up for the finals too, Germany has a good chance

AGE / VALUE:   eBay prices posted by: P.C. Kohler on 6/25/2002 at 5:08:46 PM
Wow. That rather nice Rudge De Luxe sports we were talking about a bit earlier fetched $315.00 on eBay! 16 bids too! This for a 21 inch frame, 1966 machine. I think this must be a new high. No dynohub. Mattress saddle. Fork lock.

Now, I spent $252.00 for a 1951 Rudge version of the Superbe (23-inch frame, gearcase, rear DynoThree hub) on eBay about a week or so ago. 10 bidders for that one. And a 1955-ish one with a 21-inch frame fetched but one bidder and sold for only $99 about three weeks back. That was surprising. Maroon colour too.

No judgement calls here; I hope when my Rudge arrives (maybe today!) UPS has been kind to her and she's as nice as she looked in the listing. Money well spent then. But it's just interesting to track these things. Of course I am waiting for one of you to tell me about the Rudge you just bought on the side of the road for $10....

P.C. Kohler

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   eBay prices posted by David on 6/25/2002 at 5:38:10 PM
I sold one on ebay 2 months ago; B72, dyno, lights, lock, brazed-on chainguard mounts, old but ok tires, some rust but not as bad as what I ride - $90. 21" frame or I would have kept it!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   eBay prices posted by Marko on 6/25/2002 at 7:17:19 PM
Oh! You mean the one I found out for trash last Thursday (trash night)..........

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   eBay prices posted by Jeff on 6/26/2002 at 1:54:58 AM
I found a 23" frame Superbe on Saturday for $10.00. I think it may have come out of the trash or a nearby pond but it had a 1950 dated 3 speed rear dynohub, chaincase, locking fork, decaying but possibly usable B-66, and some other assorted trinket parts that I could use.

AGE / VALUE:   The things I hear,see. The bikes I found. Sheesh! posted by: Chris on 6/25/2002 at 3:16:26 PM
I see old defunct shop stickers on the frame with an address and I ask about the place, people and times. The stories are wild, unexpected and Soap Opera-ish. Even the women are wild, nasty, cutthroat and a forces to be reconed with. "If she don't like the look of you Chris, forget it!" She controls him! Everybody knows each other, I'm struggling with this "out of the loop crap" Who does not like who what so and so did to this guy. Racism stories that curl the hair. All the dirt, The history you don't hear about. Folks just couldn't be good, race, ride, do business. Bad, tricky, colorful folks! All the dirty crap, all the messing with others. Run the other guy into the kerb, cause a 13 bike pile up, keep going on, win that race!
I'm scribbling notes or the recorder is whirring away. My eyes roll in the back of my head, I'm trying to follow and understand.

Still even though it's all very interesting, I look up the place, snap a photo or two, do interviews, but the million dollar question, the only thing my buddy wants to know is...

What does he have in there? I say, "I'm working on that."
I'll let you know when it's safe to let you know!
Some of these folks are better not approached. Some can't be found, many are dead and long time dead. Some will pass on before I meet them! Where did the daughter go? Florida? Where? and usually anything I'm after was sold, thrown out, destroyed or something like that. Sometimes years ago.
I get a lead. It's out in the sticks in a barn and then guy is dead by now. "What did you think he lived to be 115 years old? He opened that shop in 1924 ! You Twit!!" The elderly lady or a very fine looking daughter takes me out back and she's eye'n me and asking "What do ya offer me? Hmmmmm?" I look open mouthed. The husband gets home from work, asks "Who's this guy" he says "No, don't sell it to him!" The wife tells him to shut up. He shuts up. I breathe a sigh of relief.
Follow it backwards and then see if the guy is really gonna level with me and getting taken downstairs to see what's left of it all. What is left of the sum of four old, diffrent shops. Don't mention his brother they don't get along. Don't rub them the wrong way! If they have a vintage car, or two then they don't care a hoot about the bikes!
The dude's basment's all flooded with four feet of water! He put me off and then it flooded, it's all ruined! "How did I know, Chris?"
I'm stomping feet and crying.
Then there is the "competition" that pops up out of nowhere! They laugh, say "Hi Chris!"
Sometimes they tell me to get lost! Sometimes I tell them! I end up helping out arch enemies just so I get to see and possibly buy the goodies.
Dang blasted Walter! he's gotten me more than I've gotten him. Sometimes after finding the stash, I cannot get it all, or it's something I don't really want to splurge on. So I stop in during dinner hour and jump up and down saying "Quick, we gotta go here" and I lead the way. He's shaking his head, and asks me "Where did you find this guy and this stuff?" Only if I cannot swallow it all myself. Part lone Viking/ part loyal bird dog. Hope to be all Viking one day! Better the pirate you know than the one you don't. I show up with Pineapple upside down cake and plates and over Orange pop in lawn chairs I tell him "I learned that you got the so and so collection." He booms" How do you know that? Who told you that? I look up from cake and ask to see "The Goods, the Stash, What did ya get?" I confess that "ya beat me out of it by two days" The wharehouse is opened, the dog is gonna devour me if I get two close to it. Stuff is hanging everywhere. It's unbelievable. I pick out one bike, out of hundreds. Yes, to the victor go the spoils.
Still, despite my silly ways, the fact is "this is business, Chris" and it's all about money. "Only the almighty dollar" True, but I'm enjoying the ride and revelling in the experiences. The crooks, the shysters, the scarry people they are out there, heck, they own it sometimes. I have had to jump off the trail and not solve the mystery sometimes. I have had to drop it, cold and go on to something else. Sometimes I have smiled, made talk, shook his hand. Then I heard later "Do you know who that was?" "Don't you ever go near him again!" Or "Do you know what kinda neighborhood you are in right now?" Get out of there! Look, I like you Chris, but go home! everybody needs a good teacher and advisor.

I finally meet the "old man" I jump in, he drives, kinda scarry driver) he fumbles with keys, mutters, no electricity, no stairwell, old butcher shop basement's loaded with bike parts and bikes. 1960's time capsule! I had to hang out and hang out. They had to get to know me first. "We gotta hurry, my show's gonna be on, I never miss my fly fishing show!" Oh it's been fun and interersting and strange!
What Im I doing? Well, I'm chasing the winds mostly.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   The things I hear,see. The bikes I found. Sheesh! posted by Chris on 6/25/2002 at 4:49:36 PM
Raymond Palmer's "Fate magazine." We sit there and look at em. He asks "Where did you get the "Fates?" Aww dude! They're all moldy. I can only offer you so much and only for four of em. Too bad this place was moldy." Getting there too late, finding the neat stuff whatever it is, in sorry shape in condition too poor to sell really bites. Out of a huge collection, many boxes full. Im out by the dumpster going "Dang it!" They were ruined. I tell all about the house I stoped in at. They had radios. I describe it, he goes there, buy's a few. Next visit I see them all and he's telling me all about them. He got a bargain, he's happy. He was lucky I don't do old radios. Now he looks for me. "Bikes, Huh?"
Finding old books or magazines in great shape and geting them put away in those plastic bags is fun!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   The things I hear,see. The bikes I found. Sheesh! posted by Chris on 6/29/2002 at 6:44:53 PM
Some chemical is known to old book dealers and it removes mold and saves the material! I did not know this then.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Roadster Rack info ? posted by: Drew on 6/24/2002 at 9:49:11 PM
Anyone have some information on rear racks used on Raleigh DL-1. Just found a nice one marked 'ENLITE GERMANY', made of steel and looks to be from the 40s or 50s, has spring trap and is designed for the supports to mount part way up the seat stays, not at the hub, (like the one shown on Shelden Browns site, the '54 Superbe). It's a very nicely made piece & will go on my bike, but I did want to know what make came originally on these machines. Am selling the large Rampar canvas seat bag now thats to large to go with the rack, iit's very nice, slate grey, two side compartments, was NOS when mounted last year & is nice, $33.00 firm....shayden@shore.net

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Roadster Rack info ? posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/25/2002 at 2:50:15 PM
Did rear carriers ever come 'standard' with DL-1s? Not according to any of the catalogues I've seen. The only three-speed Raleigh that came with a fitted carrier that I know of were the Superbes and only starting in the 1960s. In this case the carrier was painted (to match) steel and fitted with stays bolted to the rear axles and also to the rear stays. The carriers I've seen fitted (as an accessory) to DL-1s were of this type, i.e. painted rather than cast aluminium type.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Roadster Rack info ? posted by David on 6/25/2002 at 3:06:05 PM
The common two-legged Pletscher rack will [barely] fit on a DL1. The holes on the rack's stays have to be reamed for the [whitworth] bolts connecting the chain stay and seat stay and the rack itself barely clears the big mudguard, marring the good paint if you have any. Pletscher racks ARE pictured among the accessories in my 70s Raleigh catalog, but I expect that the steel rack that clamps to the middle of the seat stays would have been used normally.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Roadster Rack info ? posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 6/25/2002 at 3:08:45 PM
Before Pletscher, before the Prettitube Minor rear painted to match frame colors rack on a Superbe. There was steel rear racks out of Brooks and other companies offered all British rear racks. One company that comes to mind was Ashby. I'm not sure if anybody in England offered alloy racks or not. Steel racks? sure.

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Roadster Rack info ? posted by Chris on 6/25/2002 at 3:10:08 PM
Midland made rear racks too.

MISC:   New British Trike posted by: Tom Findley on 6/24/2002 at 7:45:49 PM

Design based on Morgan 3-wheeler:


Later Design:


   RE:MISC:   New British Trike posted by rickey@knowles bicycle shop on 6/26/2002 at 4:31:18 PM
hello mr tom these are real cool i like recumbant's i have a brike 20" the two rear wheels are slanted & pedals off the front & you lean your body to stear. the larger of these would be very nice. have you seen the rider speed trike go to www.yellowbike.com i was rideing the comet a few weeks ago & met a guy rideing T trike that he made the fr. wheels were 20" & the rear was a 27" drove with a joy stick he was at the smyrna end of the comet somuch for the trikes we will ride the stone mt. trail this sunday come join us have a nice day fellows

AGE / VALUE:   Trying People, attitudes, stupidity. posted by: chris on 6/24/2002 at 5:32:07 PM

Where did YOU get it? in this attitude tone.(Last time I looked, I was still clean, worthy, and capable) Which is really stupid because I had intended to gift it to him.( Now I collect them, search all over and I don't even really like these!) Yea, Me! What do ya think of that! Yea Me! Ha!

Or: who are you, what interest do you have here?
Not giving me the moment to speak, not hearing me out, just assuming that I am some hostile jerk and not a fellow interested fan like themself.
Suddenly, motivation changes, goals change, interest within myself surges. I was not what you thought I was, but now just out of spite I will! I will amaze you at my tenacity too.

"Well, actually no, I was not even thinking that." But because you said that I guess I should! That is not how I am but well, you just watch me now. Don't answer my question, make me aggrivated, put into me the stubborn will to go digging all alone, don't share a gol darned thing. I'll go under, around, over and sometimes right through if I have to. More determined now.
"Excuse me, I'm Chris and I'm here to help out! Don't worry who I am, we have a mutual jerk between us and I am gonna work my tail off to help you. Don't matter that were's strangers. Here's why I came to you today. He marvels and smiles. I wisper my idea into his ear, forming a plan together. Heres what I don't like with you, and you with me, but were gonna overlook things like this. You are only gonna have to see me until were finished and I want to be finished as soon as you do, so lets rock! A friendship is formed, soon were working together like mad on it. Never would have happened ever but I got that "attitude" in place of good will. Everything I don't like is overlooked, same thing with him we couldn't be more far apart the two of us! Still, what we together accomplished is awesome.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Trying People, attitudes, stupidity. posted by chris on 6/24/2002 at 6:19:28 PM
I usually work alone, unless I need help in bring in the big and ugly net tearing fish's. Then you can drive the boat!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Trying People, attitudes, stupidity. posted by Chris on 6/27/2002 at 6:49:43 PM
Then again some folks are so wonderful, such a joy to talk with. I have made some friends and they're good ones.

AGE / VALUE:   bluebird--CCM posted by: sam on 6/24/2002 at 3:08:55 AM
Warren,check out this post over on the cabe http://www.thecabe.com/wwwboard/classicbikeforum/messages/97.html Might be something you would want to read.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   bluebird--CCM posted by Warren on 6/24/2002 at 12:36:27 PM
Thanks Sam...

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Rod brake pads posted by: David on 6/23/2002 at 2:52:04 AM
I just spent a miserable half hour getting new brake pads into the holders. Is there a different sort of holder that makes getting an old pad out and a new one in easier? It's hard to imagine that those boxes of Fibrax pads were intended to require bending and prying the damn holders in order to jam in the new pad.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Rod brake pads posted by Matthew on 6/23/2002 at 2:11:50 PM
Yes, what a pain trying to squish that hard rubber lump into the clamp without destroying it or your fingers. I have used spit or WD40 (very very sparingly) to lubricate the rubber as I push it in. Washing up liquid, liquid soap woul do too. Don't try any silicone spray as this would seriously jeopardise your ability to halt ever again. I hope this helps a little. Matthew

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Rod brake pads posted by ChrisH on 6/24/2002 at 3:24:38 AM
I intend to put my Fibrax pads in the freezer before trying to coax them to fit. I'll let you know if it works.