ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   The stuff dreams are made of! posted by: gmarten@hotmail.com on 11/17/2003 at 2:21:26 PM
Check out this beauty. Glass cased wall art quality!

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   The stuff dreams are made of! posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 11/18/2003 at 12:30:53 AM
Now that is really something ELSE! Though, I don't know... seems a bit pricey. But then purportedly, or not, it's all "NOS" from 1951?

Certainly an interesting find! Though with the motor hanging that low, I don't think there's a lot of ground clearance. Even looks right with the handlebars upside down!

Thanks for posting the link! That truly is cool!



ENGLISH ROADSTERS:Raleigh Tourist and DL-1 Name posted by: jim on 11/17/2003 at 1:10:33 PM
Are all Raleigh Tourist bicycles called DL-1 or is the DL-1 name used for a particular type of Raleigh Tourist. Mine only has Tourist on it.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:Raleigh Tourist and DL-1 Name posted by David on 11/17/2003 at 5:43:41 PM
DL1 is for "moDeL 1" That's the number that appeared in catalogs. I think that the name, though, of Raleigh's basic model varied over the years. Can anyone tell us when "Tourist" was first used to describe this bike?

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:Raleigh Tourist and DL-1 Name posted by David Poston on 11/18/2003 at 2:23:02 AM
P.C. Kohler will surely know more about this, but I think that the DL-1 was simply the last of the Tourists, a one-for-all cycle that replaced all the Populars, All-Weather Tourists, and the like. The Raleigh Popular was the Model 1 for a long while, so I'm not sure why they chose "DL-1" for this bike.


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:Raleigh Tourist and DL-1 Name posted by sam on 11/18/2003 at 9:32:09 AM
I seem to remember someone saying that DL stood for DeLux ,which was very popular in the 20s/30s with bicycle companys.But not sure anyone knows for sure---sam

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:Raleigh Tourist and DL-1 Name posted by P.C Kohler on 11/18/2003 at 3:26:43 PM
"DL-1" is a headscratching Americanism that means nothing to those outside North America.

It is, as David points, out a variation, in name only, of the Raleigh no. 1, 28" wheel roadster which was the basic machine in the range from c. 1900-87.

I haven't a clue as what "DL" stands for either. Nor I suspect does anyone else. The "DL" prefix was used for ALL Raleigh machines imported into the USA by Raleigh North America, at least post-war. That includes the Sports, Gran Prix, International, Colt, Sprite... everything.

I think we all tend to use "DL-1" because everyone, I mean everyone, just hated the word "Tourist" that was associated with this machine. No one wants to be called a "Tourist"! It's like calling it the DL-1 "Tosser".

Whatever it's numbered or called, it was always no.1 in the Raleigh catalogue, in sales and longevity.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:Raleigh Tourist and DL-1 Name posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 11/20/2003 at 1:03:14 AM
Having owned one of the last 7 of these bikes that left the warehouse after production was stopped in 1987 and opening the box and seeing it the chainguard and paper tags called the bike
"Royal Roadster"
28 inch wheels
22 inch frame
rear rack, Brooks leather seat
enclosed chainguard and powder coated paintwork that made me cry.
This was 7 after Raleigh stopped shipping the black D.L.1. Raleigh Tourist to America.
"Tourist" is a proper name for it too.
As this type of machine carried people around the world on them.

I do not see these anymore at garage sales or anywhere the rod brake stuff has dried up locally for me.
So if any of you find it, please cherish it.

AGE / VALUE:   Brrooks proofhide posted by: James on 11/17/2003 at 1:53:42 AM
Is one supposed to apply hide food to the underside of a brooks saddle?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Brrooks proofhide posted by Edward in Vancouver on 11/17/2003 at 3:57:16 AM
According to the sales literature that came with my new B66 (in 4 european languages plus Japanese...) Proofhide is applied sparingly to the top. The underside may be treated but if the bike is equipped with fenders, it is not necessary. Never apply when the seat is wet, never "force" the seat to dry, like with a hairdryer or near a heat source. Avoid using any other products, especially neatsfoot oil. These "tenderize" the leather, much the same way papaya enzmes tenderize meat, breaking down the fibres, and weakening the leather so it rips and tears pre-maturely.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Brrooks proofhide posted by James on 11/17/2003 at 9:14:01 AM
If I recall correctly, you mentioned Value Village in one of your posts. Are you in Vancouver, WA? Is there a value village that has old bikes or parts?
I've heard of people finding Raleighs and raleigh parts at Value Village, the person who sold me a used brooks saddle claims to have found stuff even Brooks saddles there. But of course the location of this value village was not disclosed.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Brrooks proofhide posted by Edward in Vancouver on 11/17/2003 at 11:11:32 PM
Nope, the "real" Vancouver,Canada.
Ahh, Valu-villages, my nostrils quiver, my lungs and head ache at the very mention of the name. The stale re-cycled air with a good dose of mothball and just plain dirt. You gotta enter this store with the same mentality as if you were to ask, say, Claudia Schiffer for a date. More than likely you won't find anthing, but then again if the stars line up in a certain way and if you're wearing your lucky socks, you just might find something, if you're lucky...

I'm spoiled for other choices here. There's two sports consignment stores, and a funkly old community bike workshop/store. Over the past three years of hitting these places on a semi-monthly basis, I've managed to "score" the following:
'54 Superbe
1930's S/A front drum brake
'60's RSW 16"
? B 72 in decent condition
'78 Brooks professional in exec. shape
several GH-6's
various bits and pieces

Just be persistant and never expect to find anything.
Regards, Edward

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Brrooks proofhide posted by mike patterson on 11/19/2003 at 4:23:27 PM
THE real vancouver indeed. Once lived there, now live on east coast, in Saint John, New Brunswick ( the real New Brunswick, not the Brunswick in Maine) and we too have Value Village here, I havent found any good bikes there yet but have heard of finds in the Balloon tire catagories. Have found equipment, tools, books and of course great work clothes there. What is the name of the " community bike workplace and shop" you mention and do they have an email address or website? Thanks.....Mike

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Brrooks proofhide posted by Edward in Vancouver on 11/20/2003 at 2:58:02 PM
The place is called Our Community Bikes, or, just plain OCB, located at 17th and Main. Unfortunately they don't have a website, and tend to delate every e-mail message that doesn't come from someone they know.

FOR SALE:   A Vintage SUNBEAM ! posted by: Mark McGinnis on 11/16/2003 at 7:54:42 AM
My bike is for sale on ebay. item #3638831899

"This Is A True English Classic"
One of great Britains Finest...
Sturmey-Archer 3speed, smooth as silk !
Tires like new(26x1 3/8"), Good Paint(normal wear),
Decals VGC !

Truly, "one of a kind"...
standover heigth is 30"
Has been boxed professionally & is ready to go to its new home .

   RE:FOR SALE:   A Vintage SUNBEAM ! posted by Mark R. on 11/17/2003 at 2:28:43 PM
Uh...this is a Raleigh made bicycle with "Sunbeam" markings. It is a reasonably low grade model at that. You can find many "Sunbeam" "Robinhood" "Dunelt" etc...that are more or less exactly the same.

   RE:RE:FOR SALE:   A Vintage SUNBEAM ! posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 11/20/2003 at 1:15:19 AM
Do not be embarrassed, and your enthuasim is cool.
This is a common mistake unless you are more seasoned in old British bikes and everybody starts someplace. I did and my bike pals were patient w/ me.
Raleigh did in fact buy up the name years after the Real Sunbeam bikes ceased.

It is cool to find a Raleigh made Sunbeam as the badge is still cool. The name is well known but the bike is a b- grade Raleigh.

I still jump at a Raleigh made Sunbeam just for that badge!
My last bike find was a 5 speed ladies green Raleigh Sunbeam bike.

But... Yes, the real Sunbeam bikes will be older and far more difficult to find. They will be hidden away and will cost more and if you look enough even you can find one and buy it and beat out to the punch the seasoned bike collectors here.
You only need to be more persistent in your hunting and be prepared to shell out more money for it than another more common bike.

Sunbeam, the real old ones are the best bikes of this type.

Sunbeam was king. Raleigh was for the common working man.
Enjoy what you have, or what you see but keep looking for the real Sunbeam. These rarely pop up on e- bay, it is not cheap to buy one.

FOR SALE:   Raleigh 28" wheel prop stand for sale posted by: David Poston on 11/15/2003 at 5:46:53 PM
Shameless, self-advertising this is.

The following item is available for sale on e-bay:



ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Trophy Bikes Moving Sale posted by: Brian on 11/15/2003 at 1:20:49 PM
Did anyone make it to Philadelphia for the Trophy Bike moving sale? I'm wondering what I missed (as I was down in their basement last year & spotted some English bikes/parts I would have bought had they been selling then) & what other's may have bought.

MISC:   Correct rims for mid 60's Sports? posted by: Joe on 11/14/2003 at 8:24:13 AM
I am in the process of putting together a mid to late 60's Raleigh Sports. I acqired it in pieces, along with what appears to be original Chrome fenders. Nearly all of the parts I have here are mint, but I have two styles of rims, one style is the older Raleigh pattern Sturmey Archer, and the other set is a pair of Dunlop rims similar to the ones on my '66 Robin Hood. I have been told that the corect ones are the Raleigh pattern rims, but I remember having one of these years ago and I don't remember it using the raised center rims? Was there more than one rim used? or was the Raleigh pattern rim only used on Deluxe models?
I'm not certain of the year of the frame either, it's brown metalic, with braze-on chainguard brackets on both the down and seat tubes. The hub that I got with it is dated '65, along with a set of Raleigh 'Record' white striped tires that look almost new. I aquired it with a cracked front fork, and since I had a matching fork, I figured it would make a good project bike. The chrome fenders are a first for me too. I've seen pics of all chrome Raleighs, but I never have run acrossed a set of chrome fenders before. They are identical to the painted version right down to the clips, but are completely chromed. The chainring has the Heron pattern as well.
The front hub is 32 hole, with the black metal oil hole cover clip and the Raleigh logo in the middle. It even still has it's original working pump!

   RE:MISC:   Correct rims for mid 60's Sports? posted by P.C Kohler on 11/14/2003 at 5:03:55 PM
"Raleigh" or Westrick pattern rims are correct for the Sports. The plain Endrick ones were indeed used on the lesser Raleighs like the LTD-3, Robin Hood etc. and I assume at the end of Sports production when the model just went to hell in a handbasket. But the classic Raleigh Sports needs those Westrick rims and your model, even if the age seems a bit of muddle (braze-on chain guard stays are late 60s I think), needs the shiny chrome ones (marked Raleigh or Sturmey Archer) not the older style with dull centre spoke strip.

Check out Sheldon Brown's site; there is useful timeline for the Sports over the years.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:MISC:   Correct rims for mid 60's Sports? posted by Ed on 11/14/2003 at 9:05:07 PM
I own a 1963 Hercules with chrome fenders of a design identical to those found on Raleigh Sports of the period, but I have only seen painted(bronze green or black) fenders on On Sports of that era. Good luck with the project.

   RE:MISC:   Correct rims for mid 60's Sports? posted by paul on 11/14/2003 at 10:12:12 PM
I have a cranberry red 1963 Raleigh sports, with two tone red&white mattress saddle all original with plain dunlop style rims, paperwork was in saddle bag, I believe I am second owner, bicycle is unrestored excellent and a 1965 maroon Rudge with Raleigh pattern rims and I believe here I am second owner, also excellent unrestored condition. Therefore it is assumed these mid sixties Brit bikes came with either rim style! hope this helps in research, paul

   RE:RE:MISC: Correct rims for mid 60's Sports? posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/15/2003 at 4:41:59 AM
Paul; my boyhood bike was a '62 Sports in the same colour: does yours say "Sports" in white letters on the downtube?? Mine had Dunlop "sports" rims too, not Westricks. c. 1962-64 they may have had these lighter rims.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:MISC:   Correct rims for mid 60's Sports? posted by Joe on 11/17/2003 at 8:39:29 AM
So far, from what I've seen online, and by going through various old catalogs, it looks like the Sports Deluxe model lists the Raleigh style rims, and the plain Sports model does not specify. Other than the Raleigh fork, pump pegs, and chainguard braze-ons, it looks nearly identical to my '66 Robin Hood. The fenders polished up well, they almost seam to be some sort of stainless steel? They weren't realy rusted, but just hazy looking. Even the undersides are clean. The fender braces are cool looking too, they're chrome plated aluminum, with a small Sir Raleigh logo stamped near each end. Which brake pads were used on the mid-60's Sports? I have both Fibrax and John Bull pads here. Also, it came with 2 sets of grips, one is black and ribbed on top and the other set are gray with no finger notches.

FOR SALE:   NOS Raleigh pattern 36h rims posted by: Jim on 11/13/2003 at 6:26:11 PM
Nice pair from Andreou a reliable guy I've purchased from located in Cypress. NMA, etc. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2202711119&category=420

AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by: David Poston on 11/13/2003 at 6:00:02 PM
Has anyone here attempted coach (or box, whatever the proper term is) lining by hand? Transfers are difficult to source, and it seemed to me that painted lining would be the authentic way to go. How did they do this in the factory? I'm thinking that a stencil pattern must have existed for doing this stuff, and why can't we replicate our own?

All of my cycles have worn or missing lining, and it would be nice to have this restored. Gold and red paint is as easy to find as food in a grocery store.

Let me know what you guys think.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by Stacey on 11/13/2003 at 8:14:53 PM
The common term here in the states David is "pinstripe". Done by artisians freehand. It takes a steady hand and plenty of practice. An accomplished striper can have two framesets completed in the time it would take someone to even find the stencils. I'm sure a Google search will provide you with the information you'd need to get started towards Master. Who knows, maybe in five years you could quit your day job.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Coach lining posted by Warren on 11/13/2003 at 9:35:01 PM
There are numerous professional pinstripers in the motorcycle restoration business. All the BMW's were pinstripted by hand up to the 70's. Try searching that industry.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/13/2003 at 9:45:49 PM
Gosh, David, next you'll be braze welding frames!!

Carriage lining (or coach lining) is indeed an art but it's done with a special brush by I think Bugeler or something like that. Sold by auto parts places and like anything else nowadays on the web.

Of course the types of machines you prefer, the classic roadsters, simply are covered with carriage lining and double red and gold for Raleigh, green and gold for Sunbeams I think. So you'll be an expert soon enough with one frame. Pre-war Raleighs generally had no metal Heron's Crest badge but a transfer on the headtube boxed, of course, in carriage lining. The red paint Raleigh used for this is enduring stuff: my 1948 Raleigh Dawn has most it intact on the gearcase. The gold has turned to that 'orrible rust brown or disappeared except for a faint shiny line.

The other route you can take, which I have done, is to buy lining transfers in red and gold from Nick at Lloyds. But this is a VERY expensive route (a single roadster literally needs about 12 sheets of each colour of lining at £2.20 a sheet of four lines) and matching up the lining is very tedious as these are of course only about 5 inches long and need to be cut and joined. They also need to be heavily overcoated in varnish as they are more delicate than paint.

Either way, it's an essential part of the "look". And a wonderful tradition Raleigh maintained up to the last DL-1 frames they produced in Nottingham. Today, it's all comic book type wacked out "graphics", everything at some aggressive angle. Eeech.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by sam on 11/13/2003 at 11:47:30 PM
In the Houston area contact Jaun DeLeon and talk to him on pinstripping.juan@bikevato.com or Http://www.bikevato.com
I really like doing box lining.After a couple of thousand frames I'll have worked my way up to Poor.At present I've done 3 so I have a ways to go.There really is nothin like it.Decals,stencels,tape,not even close!But please do try!Get the brush,one shot paint,talk to Jaun,get an old frame and practise.---sam

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by David Poston on 11/14/2003 at 12:24:35 AM
Do you think I can get by using stencil tape? I don't think I have the patience nor time to learn to do it by hand. Here they sell several different stencil patterns; one is bound to work for Raleigh.


Red and gold paint shouldn't be that hard to match, methinks.

Now, for the HARD part--Where to put it? I have a rear NOS mudguard lying around that I can use as a template, but for the frame? I'm afraid that what little pinstriping was left on my DL-1's was sanded off when I took off those ugly 70's decals. I only saw red though, no gold.

It may seem like a lot of work, but I think all my machines would look a lot bloody better if they had brand new pinstriping. Don't you guys agree?


   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by sam on 11/14/2003 at 1:20:45 AM
The auto paint suppliers in your area will carry all these supplies too.Just look in the yellow pages under paint-auto.Save the shipping cost.Tape leaves an edge on the paint.---sam

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by Edward in Vancouver on 11/14/2003 at 2:46:34 AM
David, I was in your predicament two years ago and I opted the cheapo-route. Got the pinstriping done at an auto detail place with stick-on tape. Cop-out, I know, I know...
Beugler makes a pinstriping tool, but it's quite expensive and will take practice to use. There are cheaper versions of this tool at hobby stores. Basically a bottle with a metal wheel at the bottom. You move the bottle and the wheel deposits a line of paint. Not the best thing for hard surfaces like metal, but ideal for poster board and canvas. Don't buy the cheapo hobby one, I've got one in drawer at home... "Real" pinstriping is done with a dagger brush, because it's shaped like a dagger. Takes a steady hand and a lot of practice. Start hunting down old timer's car and M/C clubs and ask about pinstriping, because most body shops wil give you a blank look and then ask how many feet of detail tape you want to buy. When you find the right guy who can do it, don't bargain or quibble about the price, it takes alot of practice to get a straight line down a curved fender or a 1 '/2" tube.
Regards, Edward.
Oh, see my posting under chaincases about pinstriping the round pie plates....

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by Joe on 11/14/2003 at 8:17:49 AM
Try your local sign painter or truck letterer, they may still have someone there that still or hand letter or stripe with enamel.
The Buegler pinstriper tool mentioned above is available at: http://www.eastwoodco.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=37025&Dep_Key1= They also sell 'One Shot' sign enamel.
These work on the same principle as a ball point pen, this model, unlike the cheaper hobby shop ones, has a plunger that forces the paint out even on smooth surfaces. The important part is to set up a good guide to trace along before you begin.
A friend of mine, who does glass lettering and custom pinstriping, turned me on to another method, a paint pen.
It looks about like a Sharpe Marker, but uses enamel instead of ink. These come in all sorts of colors including gold leaf. I found this much easier and neater to use than the Buegler and is quite durable as long as applied to a clean surface. I've found these at various craft stores, hobbie shops, and sign painting suppliers.
Just be sure it is an enamel type marker and not a water based ink or paint. Always pinstripe with a slow drying enamel, it makes mistakes easy to wipe away and redo, and the slower curing paint will adhere much better.
The paint pens also come in handy for spot repairs of factory lettering or decals.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by Stacey on 11/14/2003 at 11:22:24 AM
Oh, you're looking for someone to do it FOR you... There's only one place to go if you ask me. BMW Motorrad in St Louis, Mo. All the retentive BWM riders would have their stuff done there. It ain't cheap!

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by David Poston on 11/14/2003 at 5:33:14 PM
Hmm...Too many ideas and now I'm all confused...I think I want to do this myself, actually.

Alright, supposing I hit upon a good method for doing the job, how do I find out where the pinstriping should go? As mentioned above, I've got some mudguards for templates, but for the frame???

I'm doing a men's and lady's DL-1; however, I'm wanting to do c. 1930s-50s specs. P.C., are you there?


   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Coach lining posted by WArren on 11/14/2003 at 7:57:26 PM
Hey! I resemble that remark....

(77 R60/7 and a 72 R75/5)

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by P.C Kohler on 11/14/2003 at 8:08:44 PM
David... you must have the 1937 Raleigh catalogue, the one with all the gilt and those gorgeous illustrations... these show the lining quite well. This pattern of lining was used up until the war. Post-war, it was almost as elaborate until 1952-ish.

Remember the lining almost never lies on the centreline of a tube, it's always one-third towards the top or a mite more. And I can never ever remember if it's red on top or gold on top (even I don't have a Raleigh roadster in my office!)... just be consistant!

Everything is lined. Everything. Twice. One in red. One in gold. All three main tubes, head (assuming it's a transfer Heron not a metal badge), backstays, chainstays, forks, gearcase, pie plate and mudguards. Remember: pre-war Raleighs the mudguards had a double "box" of lining on either side of the bridge attachment i.e. not one continuous line but two "boxes". An essential detail. And a heavier gold stripe between the white "black out" paint on the rear mudguard and the black enamel.

Whew! Me, I'd find a professional to do this.... but if you can carriage line a pre-war roadster, you are The Man!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by David Poston on 11/14/2003 at 8:51:34 PM
Actually, my 1938 catalogue is in black and white, not in colour...And, it's missing! I'm not looking for period authenticity (given the fact that I am outfitting my 70's DL-1s to older specs), but just some general advise...

OK, which tubes get the box lining and which just get stripes??? Box lining on top tube, downtube, and seat tube only?

Looking at my mudguards, gold goes outside, red goes inside. The box is closed on either end by gold, no red. Does this sound right?

Somebody please point me to a picture/catalogue or send me one of their own before I screw this up....Even if I take it to a professional to have it done, I will need to tell him where to put the stuff...


   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Coach lining posted by Stacey on 11/15/2003 at 12:16:35 PM
No offense intended Warren. My inference wasn't that all Teutonophiles are retentive, jus those that are...

She who cut her teeth on an R27 :-)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Coach lining posted by Catfood Rob on 11/15/2003 at 8:30:20 PM
And lets faxce it, if you mess up, you can always rub it off and start again,,,,,,, after all, its only an old bike.......

   RE:Stacey posted by Warren on 11/15/2003 at 10:09:41 PM
I know that!

R27 eh? That was a thumper, I think...to die for. A woman after my own heart...next to my wife of course. She owns the R75!

AGE / VALUE:   White patch on rear fender posted by: Andrei on 11/13/2003 at 6:34:34 AM

Does anyone know if the white patch on the rear fender was ever pure white, or an off-white? My old Raleigh has a patch that is off-white or creamish in color. Did it darken with age?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   White patch on rear fender posted by Tim Powell on 11/13/2003 at 2:40:51 PM
It would depend on if the patch was painted on in 1939 as per wartime regulations by the owner using any old paint that came to hand, or if the manufacturer did it. I have a few examples of DIY efforts ranging from old distemper paint to houspaint. My Raleigh Utility has mat white paint but my Royal Enfield has gloss white. Take your pick.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   White patch on rear fender posted by Matthew on 11/13/2003 at 9:40:32 PM
Pre 1960's paint contained lead amd yes you guessed right it went cream with age. See plenty of older messages about the white mudguard subject.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   White patch on rear fender posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/13/2003 at 9:59:08 PM
Lead was banned only from household paints. Auto enamels and other "professional coatings" were loaded with lead and I suspect still are. The best auto enamel of them all, Dupont Dulux, sadly out of production as of this past May, was a wonderful lead-based synthetic enamel and the first of its kind. Thinned with enamel reducer and brushed on with about six light coats, rubbed down between, Pitch Black Dulux is the best match out there for British Bike Black. Just gorgeous! Remember that black bikes were almost never, ever sprayed. They "dunked" the frame and components in the stuff and then baked it. Best finish in the world. You can also brush apply the new Dulux auto enamels. But the Dulux had that warm glow and gloss instead of the harsh "glass" finish of the new generation of paints.

Lead is essential for good paint. I guess I was a strange child having never acquired the taste for eating paint chips. My doctor told me that there was zero risk of me using lead paint, saying that I was losing far more brain cells to age than to lead-based paint. Great.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   White patch on rear fender posted by Pete on 11/14/2003 at 5:25:12 PM
The white patch regulations came in about 1935/36 and not for the war. The new safety laws required 12 square inches of white There were lots of different items available , clipon patches,short mudguards etc. I guess some people just got out the paint !!!

AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh round-section, 26" mudguards posted by: David Poston on 11/12/2003 at 2:52:56 AM
Can someone tell me when Raleigh switched from round section, "roadster" mudguards for 26" wheel bikes (Dawns, Sports Tourists, etc.) to the typical "Sports" mudguards with the ridge and chromed bullet?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh round-section, 26 posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/12/2003 at 4:13:03 PM
1946-47 for the Dawn models. They got the "sports" style mudguards (which were introduced c. 1939) and brazed on backstays for post-war production.

That nifty and clearly pre-war Dawn offered by OldRoads got one bid on eBay; $295.00 for a nice example with what sure looks like a pre-war dynohub. Amazing how some things get so little attention especially when folks pay $600 for a '65 Sports!!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh round-section, 26 posted by David Poston on 11/13/2003 at 6:16:17 PM
Yes, I was wondering why that Dawn had round section guards. I didn't realise that it was a 22" frame, otherwise I would have considered it. A bit rough for a $295 opening bid, but I suppose it was there for the taking with only one bid.

Speaking of mudguards, we need to develop a proper glossary for them: round section, deep section, etc. I'm getting confused as to how to refer to the ones in my "collection." Is this listed in a file or diagram somewhere?


AGE / VALUE:   Stainless steel spokes posted by: Chris on 11/11/2003 at 8:55:59 PM
For all my love of Stainless steel spokes, the way they look and all of that, the stainless steel spokes crack over time and need replacement.

AGE / VALUE:   Old style Spokes for Robin Hood posted by: James Biffin on 11/11/2003 at 5:00:29 AM
I got my dynohub set in the mail today and now face the task of building myself a new wheel. I'd rather not use the new style spokes, they are too bright and don't match the vintage and well worn look of the bike. Does anyone still make spokes similar to what Raleigh used to use? Or does anyone know where i could get new old stock spokes?

Another question, what were the old spokes made of? Zinc plated steel? or were they just not polished to the same shiny finish?


P.S. I know someone who has a Raleigh delivery bike from the 60s he wants to sell. It appears to have been built like a tank and is a one speed.
email me if you are interested, it's in Portland, OR

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Old style Spokes for Robin Hood posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/11/2003 at 4:23:05 PM
Patina, that favourite e-Bay word, is desirable.. to a point. You can still get the old-fashioned zinc spokes I think. But do remember stainless steel spokes were standard issue for many Raleigh models as far back as 1939! And before that, chrome-plated spokes were introduced c. 1935.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Old style Spokes for Robin Hood posted by James Biffin on 11/11/2003 at 8:34:44 PM
I assume the spokes on my Robin Hood are zinc plated, they have a dull grey finish, or do old stainless spokes turn a dull grey?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Old style Spokes for Robin Hood posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/11/2003 at 10:01:30 PM
If they are dull grey and have that slightly soft furry feeling, they are zinc. I guess one of the economies wrought with Robin Hoods et. al. were zinc instead of stainless steel spokes. It could be a lot worse: nothing rusts quite like those pre-war chrome-plated spokes! Your local cycle shop should be able to order zinc spokes; I doubt too many stock them nowadays.

P.C. Kohler

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Gumwall "cleaning" question posted by: Larry "Boneman" Bone. on 11/11/2003 at 1:05:40 AM
Just wondering if anyone has had any success cleaning gumwall tyres. I was pondering trying a wee bit of simple green but thought I would post here to possibly avert disaster.

Oh.. the tyres are 28 x 1 1/2" and mfg'd in Mexico.

Appreciate and and all comments, suggestions, warnings... or even obstreperous dialogue... heck even loquacious pugnacity would be fun to read. ;-)



   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Gumwall posted by kohl57@starpower.net on 11/11/2003 at 3:53:24 AM
Sorry, don't how that happened but my two pence on this subject appears below the preceding thread...

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Gumwall posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 11/11/2003 at 4:10:26 AM
Well, methinks it's in part due to the residual effects of the lunar eclipse we had here Saturday night. Between that and the changes in the coriolis acceleration effect as we approach the winter solstice, I can see it happening.

(well, it's the only quasi-plausible thing I could think of).



   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Gumwall posted by Edward in Vancouver on 11/11/2003 at 4:40:13 PM
Back in the days when I would "worship" my roadbike, I would scrub the tires and rims in a bathtub with a nylon nailbrush and shower gel. I would then rub some glycerin into the tire casing. The Glycerin keeps the casing soft,a nd is available at most drugstores and oddly enough, Bakery ingredient suppliers. This type of treatment will get you into major domestic trouble, the rings around the tub are a lot of work to scrub out...

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Gumwall posted by Sidney Sideline on 11/13/2003 at 9:48:56 PM
Pontificating upon the neccesity to renovate the tyre walls of your velocipede has led me to the forthright and succinct conclusion that a dental brush, some hand soap or washing up detergent would comprise the most effecacious equipmnet for the task in hand. the much rarer and almost obselete elbow grease (lubricanus radius) is also a pre-requisite part of the ensemble but alas is seldom found in those of less than 40 yrs of age.

Wishing every success in de-gunging your gum walls, I remain yours faithfully.

S. Sideline Esq.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Not too shabby! posted by: Larry "Boneman" Bone on 11/11/2003 at 12:57:59 AM
Well, the "hairpin" seat that I ordered two weeks ago finally arrived. First impression is that it's not at all a shabby unit.

The leather is a full 1/4" thick and doubled up on the underside. The chrome steel components seem rather sturdy as well. There are 6 rivets EQ.SP. across the back of the saddle and 3 across the front. The standard 3 uhh... well... "vent" holes on the top of the saddle as well.

I will be giving it a good coating of McGuiar's leather cleaner and conditioner (solvent free) prior to use. The leather itself is not only thick, but seems quite sturdy!

No indication as to it's actual origin, however, across the back, where one would normally find the "Brooks" nameplate, it is stamped:

ALAVEDA, CA 94501. PH. 510-769-0980

Will advise as to it's actual performance once installed on my recently acquired DL-1 (not to worry, I'm saving the original Brooks saddle).



   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Not too shabby! posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/11/2003 at 3:51:26 AM
Me, I always use Barkeeper's Friend, that wonderful, magical cleanser like stuff. Removes even bike shop repair guys greasy finger marks. Honest. But you have to really rinse this stuff off with a wet sponge and a cleaner like 409 to get rid of the white cleanser residue. The combination works pretty well. And if you get Barkeeper's Friend on the rims, even better 'cause it cleans chrome like a wonder.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Not too shabby! posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 11/11/2003 at 4:07:27 AM
Hmmmm. Sounds interesting though to be quite honest, I don't believe I've ever seen that particular product anywhere. Not to worry though. Sounds like a "cleanser" type product with a mild abrasive and some sort of bleaching agent.

Gives me a clue and a few other ideas.

Thanks P.C.!

Meanwhile, a colleague is heading to Mexico for some business in December. I don't know if the airlines would allow him to "carry on" two 28" tires, but we're lookin' into it. ;-)



   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Not too shabby! posted by P.C. Kohler on 11/11/2003 at 1:19:58 PM
You can get Barkeeper's Friend in most grocery stores; same container as Ajax or other cleansers but a lot better.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Not too shabby! posted by David on 11/11/2003 at 2:08:55 PM
Just put those tires over your shoulder and carry 'em on. I've done that more than once and had no problems. Put a twist in them and stuff them in the overhead compartment. They're big enough; it won't hurt them.

   Back on topic... posted by Tim on 11/11/2003 at 10:51:07 PM
Interesting. Looky here:

   RE:Back on topic... posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 11/12/2003 at 2:28:59 AM
WOW! Nice work.... I've been a bit fashed of late and had not even though of running a search. Some of the items there are pretty neat. I might look into acquiring a set of the "rubber English grips".

The three hole cranks are very interesting as well. Not sure if I would want a set, but a neat idea. And yes, there it is... the hairpin saddles.

And was not someone looking for zinc plated spokes as well?

The doggone repro oil lamps.... now that I may have to snag too.

Thanks Tim! Have it bookmarked. Though, your "find" just might cost me a bit of dough, eh?