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Archived: English Roadsters

FOR SALE:   New (NOS) Parts Site posted by: Ginny Rini on 1/3/2003 at 4:56:41 AM
I have a new site that I am beginning to post parts on (It will take awhile to get them all posted). Keep an eye on http://rini20@attbi.com. I also have a operational site for Old School BMX at http://ginnyrini.home.attbi.com

   RE:FOR SALE:   New (NOS) Parts Site posted by ginny rini on 1/5/2003 at 6:05:56 AM
sorry i posted a bad link--try http://rinienterprises.home.attbi.com that will give you access to all 3 of my bicycle sites.

MISC:   Women's frame brakes posted by: David on 1/3/2003 at 4:08:31 AM
The frozen rear brake is driving me nuts. The pulley arrangement seemed impractical, so now I wonder: would it help to cut the cable housing in two - so water could drain from the loop?

   RE:MISC:   Women's frame brakes posted by Ray on 1/3/2003 at 3:37:19 PM
Before getting out those cutters try using a generous supply of WD40. It is designed to remove water, in fact the WD stands for Water Displacement. Get a spray can with the long red nozzle and put it up to the cable opening and shoot away. Force the spray into the housing till it comes out of the other end freely. If it is clogged then grab the housing and wiggle it around in a cranking motion and bend it in small bends along the length and try spraying again. Do this till the cable frees up. It is cheaper and will save the cable and housing if you have a mind to. Once you get the cable out clean it off with some acetone (nail polish remover) then dry it. Spray out the housing again and then turn it over to drain the excess spray. Get a good thick waterproof grease and generously coat the cable and re insert it. Pack the housing ends with more grease or wax and have at it. After doing all of this grab the hand brake and squeeze it about a hundred times to work the cable inside the housing. Add more greas to the opening and you should be set for life.

   RE:MISC:   Women's frame brakes posted by ben on 1/4/2003 at 12:32:27 AM
I assume this is an old cable set that you cannot take the cable out of the housing without cutting the end off, and that you want to save the cable housing also? If so, and nothing else works, cut the cable, replace with new and use a clamp-on end. Clean the inside of the cable housing with a weak solution of CLR delivered through an eyedropper, or use some old cable and coarse rubbing compound, or both...never tried this, but seems like it would work.


   RE:MISC:   Women's frame brakes posted by David on 1/4/2003 at 2:31:25 AM
Indeed, the cable has both ends. Taking the whole thing off and letting it drip indoors all morning and then blasting WD40 and putting on gobs of grease to seal out the water gave me releasable brakes in the snow. So mebbe it's ok for the season.

AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by: David Poston on 1/2/2003 at 11:17:40 PM
This whole talk on cotter pins has got me thinking that the Park tool is a must. I never thought much of removing any cotters until I needed to install a chaincase. Now, I'm wondering how on earth the mechanics overhauled the bottom brackets on my bikes without removing the cotters. There's no way around it, right? If they removed 'em and put 'em back without a fuss, then why couldn't I with the proper tool? If you overhaul your bottom bracket with new grease every two years (which is what the mechanic recommends), then would the cotters go bad? Maybe when they first designed these machines, they expected people to use the bottom bracket oiler port, not to use grease. This would explain the hellishly difficult cotter pin removal process. They simply didn't expect people to remove 'em very often. However, my 70's Raleighs don't have the bottom bracket oiler port. You have to grease it. So I'm stuck with outdated crankshaft technology to be used with updated methods of lubrication. Am I in a fix or what?

David, whose recently installed a new SA gear cable from hub to trigger and is still amazed that he could do it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by Warren on 1/3/2003 at 12:15:46 AM
Old time mechanics had better tools than we did do...including cotter pin tools. Chris mention a VAR removal tool earlier. Their stuff is great. I bought a VAR spoke wrench new from an old bike shop last year and it is amazing. Big, cast, strong...just like the bikes they fix, older is often better.

I would never reopen an old roadster bottom bracket unless it starts getting crunchy, stiff or too loose. I've opened BB's that I swear hadn't been opened since they were made 50 years earlier. The bearing surfaces were pristine even though the bikes were obviously well used. They used this weird grey grease back then with a distinct aroma, (some carcinogen, I'm sure). Just remember when you do rebuild your BB...you can't use too much grease. I also prefer loose balls to bearing races. You end up using more balls and have more bearing surface contact. Another thing, I don't like modern moly bike greases like Park. I use thicker motorcycle bearing greases. They are thicker, stickier and seem to stay in place longer.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by alonzo on 1/3/2003 at 3:50:16 AM
Sorry to hear about the dearth of cotter pin presses.

I've had success simply suspending my bike over a four-inch bench vise and squeezing the cotter pin out. Clamp the frame in a bike stand and locate the crank and cotter pin between the jaws. Fit one socket large enough to go over the round pin end and another socket balanced on the threaded end, so as not to mash the threads. Be sure you locate all this in the middle of the vice jaws, not at one end or the other. Squeeze.

One question: What's the best way to file a cotter pin so as to keep the face flat?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by Tom on 1/3/2003 at 3:10:58 PM
I picked up an old "Multi" cotter pin removal tool. Very big and heavy, cast iron with oak handles. Works great. Also can be used to put them back in. These tools are great. You can find them the odd time on Ebay but they get high bids.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by David on 1/3/2003 at 4:39:27 PM
Does VAR still make cotter presses? Are there Japanese ones? (Millions of cottered cranks in J, but they're slowly disappearing. And I think the Japanese just throw away their bikes and buy new ones.)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by sam on 1/3/2003 at 6:39:01 PM
I can tell you never saw the bikes(roadesters)the Japanese keep hidden in japan.They may be 26' wheels but the workmanship is like 1920s ruge!There is no part of them that is cheaply built.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by David on 1/3/2003 at 8:26:23 PM
They've definitely kept them hidden when I've been there. The bikes used by the postmen seemed to be the best. Most of the bikes on the street are very cheap - pinched and spotwelded stays, e.g.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   When do you need to remove 'em? posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 1/3/2003 at 10:12:17 PM
(Sarcastic, but this is true)
"Oh, Yes, we overhauled the bottombracket for you already, We did everyting you asked us to. Your bill comes out to $158.42"
Now of course 'overhaul' meant that they shot some oil in there, or W.D. 40 so whatever they put in there is sloshng around in the 40 year old hardened grease.
You are getting charged and they took little time and because you were not there to know better they lied and got away with it. A real overhaul takes some time to do it properly but the results are well worth it.

Mechanics also 'overhaul' headsets by dripping oil in the headset races with the bike upside down. A real overhaul means taking it apart, cleaning, putting in new balls and new grease. Once again, a discussion should be had over the phone or either in person about wear on the cups and what to do about replacing the parts that they no longer have in stock. People should be combing this site and everybody else on the web who might have parts for these.
Instead, we sidestep the whole issue of finding parts for these bikes. The Raleigh headsets are not a problem.
For most Raleigh bikes in the hands of folks here , an original Raleigh headset is sold by the Raleigh Chopper website in England. I'll get back here and post the exact address. Now Vin here, sold out of his stock or original Raleigh headsets. These last a long time, and usually an overhaul means that you replace bearings, grease and take a good look at the ball races in the headset. Grooves are acceptable but pitting is not. Take a magnifier glass to it and look. I have popped in used headset parts that have less wear than what came out of it. I always put in new ball bearngs and replace grease after a clean out.

The Raleigh Chopper bikes use the exact same headset cups as the Raleigh Sports, the Raleigh D.L.1. Tourist, and the other Raleigh bikes, only the top nut is diffrent and just for looks, it is taller. Same Raleigh thread, same diameter everything. Visit the Raleigh Chopper web sites, ask and find and pick up a new Raleigh Chopper headset and pop it into your Raleigh Sports or Tourist. The part is exact!
Same thing with the bottombracket cups! But that may be more difficult to find or expensive.

Phillips made bicycles with their 24 t.p.i. Threading is ever easier to replace as modern parts like Tange were/ still in use.
Bottombracket cups, headset races. So you drift a bit into B.M.X. parts. The quality is good!

The difficult thing to find is the new bottombracket cups. Raleigh threaded 26 T.P.I. cups. Mechanics, shop owners, collectors, racers, Raleigh nuts like myself hoard these cups. Especially the fixed cup, that requires a special, often homemade tool to replace it.
Ask everybody, e- mail, watch e- bay,visit the shops you know of. These are out there. The locking ring on the adjustable cup is re-usuable so not worry with that. In the mean time, overhaul it with new balls, new grease, after a clean out.
Until you have found a new spindle, new cups. To put in there. Keep it original and running sweetly. I have overhauled lots of bottombrackets and left in cups and the bike still runs excellently. A new chain(unless yours is enclosed and is running in oil and in that case leave it alone) and an overhauled bottombracket. Look to overhaul everything that moves, free up everything. These bikes stiffen up with age, the hubs, the chain, the moving parts. Clean in solvent, replace, re- pack bearings, replace bearings, adjust and examine for wear, pitting and cracking. A machinist can turn out a new spindle but before you do that, contact other Raleigh/bicycle folks and ask them if they will let something out of their grip to help you out. The e- bay fellow in Niccosea, Cypris had new Raleigh spindles for sale. The original Raleigh spindle for the 28 inch rod brake D.L.1. Tourist is marked 08 GCC. The others , I have to look up.
Comb through Sheldon's site. All the tricks are told already and it's been updated. The bolt and nut tool trick to remove the Raleigh fixed cup story is told there. I believe they say to use the Stein Tool that works on these cups.

look, Whenever and where ever somebody says that they are cleaning out an old bicycle shop and selling some things. Immediately! Ask them if these have what you are looking for. You will have to describe the parts minutely because the folks selling it do not know, seldom is this stuff marked and of course, the parts do not speak. Experience or somebody with it is the only way you will know. I'll post people and contact info here soon.

A bottombracket overhaul means that they removed the pins, pulled off both cranks and cleaned out the old dried varnished gunk and that they replaceed all the ball bearings and set them in new grease. They should have called you on the telephone to speak with you about worn parts and to tell you that they don't have them. Usually a reoverhaul means you get involved searching for N.O.S. 26 T.P.I. (Raleigh) bottombracket cups. Or some used cups that are not as worn as yours are.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Cotter Pins--one more tactic... posted by: Michael McGettigan on 1/2/2003 at 4:48:20 AM
Once a cotter pin is totally bollocksed (by somebody else, right?)--our Brit Bike guy Brian Kenson (now emeritus and teaching painting/design) came up with this:
Get a steel pipe 2" in diam or so... cut to about 3-4 ft.
The bike is in a workstand, off the floor.
Place one end of pipe under (in horizontal pos) crank arm, so pipe supports the arm (adj. bike up or down)... other end of pipe should be on the steel baseplate of workstand or a square piece of steel.
Then take dead blow hammer and punch to the sawed-off (formerly threaded) end of the cotter that's buried inside the crank arm.
By supporting the crank, damage to the BB is reduced and because the arm/bike, etc is not bouncing around, force is concentrated on the cotter. A nice touch is to hold the punch in an 8" visegrip, which keeps your (or your helper's) fingers well away from the action.
When cotter is pounded out... lay pipe back in corner next to storage shelving for use next year (you hope!). Remove crankarm and place on workbench.
Open beer or beverage of choice.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Cotter Pins--one more tactic... posted by Stacey on 1/2/2003 at 7:57:37 PM

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Cotter Pins--one more tactic... posted by Catfood Rob on 1/2/2003 at 8:36:27 PM
Glad to see that bolloxed is used over there as well as the home country. One of my favourite words!!!! :) :)

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Cotter Pins--one more tactic... posted by Jim on 1/3/2003 at 6:04:13 PM
FWIW: I've been working in a cyclery since '75. everyone has their own way of handling cotters. The Park press is about the best when everything goes well. Press removal: after the nut is removed apply a small amount of penetrating oil into the gap around the threaded end of the cotter, tighten the the press, but don't muscle it, give a tap with a hammer to the center of the press & tighten a little further, repeat. If the cotter bends after this, and you own an airchisel; shear off the now curved & or mushroomed threaded portion of the cotter by holding a cold chisel with a vise grip (wear your goggles). Remove the pedal, loop a toe strap thru the pedal opening and around the chaistay or downtube (you might want to do this first), make a divot in the cotter with a pinch & hammer. Apply your air chisel. Cotter almost always drops right out. I think using the press to tighten a cotter is probably best after a few miles of riding. If the pin is slightly cocked when you first replace it & you apply the press, it may develop a distortion on the flat & never really tighten properiy. Or, see Sheldon Brown's piece on the Harris Cyclery site.

AGE / VALUE:   Now that's a lightweight! posted by: David Poston on 1/1/2003 at 9:16:35 PM
Check out this BSA lightweight! It's all black, none of that polychromatic green with white celluloid mudguards for me. This is one I'd actually go for, though I'm not a road bike person. I have bought from this seller quite a bit, too. Well, I don't have room nor funds at the moment, so someone else can have it.


David, who wouldn't be seen on a bicycle in any other colour than black.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Now that's a lightweight! posted by P.C. Kohler on 1/1/2003 at 10:11:10 PM
Now David... really! Remember that most mudguards on club bikes, including BSAs, were always white celluloid. And I'm thumbing through a 1938 Raleigh catalogue here... and I see a Silver Record Model 40 that was, well, all silver. Including the celluloid pump and mudguards. Or how 'bout the Golden Arrow Model 41? Or the 1940 catalogue with optional "Lustre Finish Maroon, Blue or Green" for roadsters. The best BSA roadsters of the 1920s (which rivalled Sunbeam for sheer quality) were green, lined in 22 k gold. A veritable rainbow of colours.

So does this mean my 1951 Polychromatic Olive with White Celluoid mudguards (and pump too!) Raleigh Lenton Tourist can't go out with your black DL-1L? They say opposites attract and you know those Lentons, real babe magnets they are. No DL-1L could possibly say no to alloy GB components or an alloy shell FM four-speed hub.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Now that's a lightweight! posted by Ben on 1/2/2003 at 4:10:50 AM

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Now that's a lightweight! posted by Ian on 1/2/2003 at 8:15:25 AM
Did you notice that he has Union Block pedals listed separately? Would anybody care to try and put a year on this, I notice that the seller does not make any suggestion as to what era it is. Love the spearpoint on the front guard, I have just acquired a rusty but restorable Leader with a metal guard in this shape and would love to know who made them and when. The front guard was the main reason for taking the bike! Regards, Ian.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Now that's a lightweight! posted by P.C. Kohler on 1/2/2003 at 4:49:23 PM
I hate machines without Sturmey Archer hubs if only because it's a headscratcher when the bike was built without them! This looks like the standard BSA club bike of the mid 30s to the war including the black handlebars. I have pix of the same basic machine in the 1940 BSA catalogue which was, I believe, the last for the duration. The mudguards are a bit of a puzzle: all the BSA adverts I've had show white celluloid (sorry David!) mudguards and with that neat "spear-point" extension. On this bike, they are painted steel or ...? For me, most of these club bikes are a non-starter since they are invariably 21 or 22" frames. British blokes were just vertically challenged in those days!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Now that's a lightweight! posted by David Poston on 1/2/2003 at 6:17:34 PM
Vertically challenged?!! I beg your pardon, good sir! At 5'7" tall, this lovely machine would fit me perfectly. But alas! I'm moving into an apartment (with my soon-to-be bride), and I doubt she would even tolerate a conversation about "another one!".

I've contacted the seller (we've done a lot of business together), and he says it is a pre-war bike. According to him, he "needs the space." I'd "make space" for this one!


   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Now that's a lightweight! posted by P.C. Kohler on 1/2/2003 at 8:33:37 PM
David... you are daft not to get this if the price holds anywhere near what's he's asking! Make room!! This is a lovely little (sorry!) club bike.

P.C. Kohler, still unable to buy trousers at Marks & Sparks as the inseams stop at 33"!!!

AGE / VALUE:   Booze and Bikes posted by: paul on 1/1/2003 at 3:23:51 AM
fellow readers and posters: do we again have to listen to the endless ramblings of whining reader? I'm starting to feel he is not really against the possibility that a rider will imbibe any alcohol but rather he cannot stand the promoter for whatever reason. ENOUGH ALREADY!!! paul

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Booze and Bikes posted by T.D. on 1/1/2003 at 3:41:49 PM
I suspected something along those lines as well, since the whole affair is so illogical. I wonder if someone had a bad experience with someone in the past?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Booze and Bikes posted by Anonymous Frequent Poster on 1/5/2003 at 1:11:33 AM
Jeez...wait until that guy hears that I often bring my pot pipe with me on club rides! It's what I call being tea-total.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   NEWSPAPER DELIVERY BIKE posted by: Tom on 12/31/2002 at 6:23:56 PM
Here is a nice Raleigh bike that was used for delivering the news and tobacco. I could just see back then how this guy made a living doing this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=420&item=2152389500&rd=1

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   NEWSPAPER DELIVERY BIKE posted by Ian on 1/1/2003 at 7:39:51 PM
Nice example of a Grocery Delivery bike that originally would probably have had a cane wicker basket. The butchers bikes usually had 26" wheels front and rear and a metal mesh basket that was about half the depth of this one. Meat was so much heavier that it was impossible to carry as much as the large basket on the grocery bike would hold. The metal mesh did not stain with blood from the meat like the cane one would. Happy New Year, Ian.

MISC:   Crank cotters posted by: David on 12/31/2002 at 1:39:09 PM
I'll do my bit to push the flames off the end by asking a Q.

Many people have mentioned filing the cotters before installing them. Why? A new cotter has a FLAT wedge surface and the spindle has a FLAT slot machined in it. Isn't that the best fit we can hope for? Are we talking about removing a ridge that might exist on a used cotter? Enlighten me.

   RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Warren on 12/31/2002 at 3:10:34 PM
Good question...over the years, manufacturers of cotters, axles and crankarms had varying tolerances with respect to the angle, depth and length of the pins. If your pins and cranks don't mate well, you end up with a crank that very quickly loosens itself and needs replacement. I think this is partly the reason why pins ended up being made with soft steel...whack them hard with a hammer and they deform and partially fill the gaps and voids. This is a poor substitute for a matched set of hard steel pins, axles and crankarms. I have a small stash of hard steel cotters and I use them sparingly on my premium bikes. Daily riders get the soft ones. However, a filed soft steel pin will still work perfectly...they are just a little harder to get out.

You may find that replacing one crankarm or pin will result in a pair of crankarms that don't line up perfectly. Replacing both pins may help, but a mismatched pair of crankarms may result in a situation where you can't get them perfectly in line, 180 degrees from each other.

BTW, I have a Park Cotter pin removal tool # LO83 and it has saved me immeasureable grief. If you plan on working with vintage bikes for the foreseeable future, get one. The right tool for the right job.

   RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Ray on 12/31/2002 at 3:31:27 PM
Let me add a little to what Warren says above. He is exactly right and you will find that if you just go and get a pin without sizing it you will most likely be disappointed with it. The ramps differ a lot between sizes and you could end up with a pin sticking out a 1/4 inch on one side of your bike and have it flush or recessed on the other side. If you are replacing pins then it is a good idea to take the original with you even if it is beat up. You can still use the ramp to compare and get the right match assuming it was right in the first place. If all else fails take the bike and crank with you when you shop for a pin.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by P.C. Kohler on 12/31/2002 at 5:04:48 PM
OK, already! I want to be a real British cycle MAN and remove my own cotter pins!

So... where do I get this Park Tool no. L083? It was my understanding this was no longer made. True? Then why did they stop manufacturing it? Any sources for used ones?

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Warren on 12/31/2002 at 5:44:27 PM
It appears that Park still make it under another name. Got to...


   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by P.C. Kohler on 12/31/2002 at 5:53:28 PM
Warren.. this is GREAT! Thanks.

One question: am I right in supposing that once the original cotter pin is removed, even with this tool, it should be replaced by a new one???


P.C. Kohler, out for a spin on his '49 Rudge

   RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by David on 12/31/2002 at 6:38:01 PM
Park Tools told me by email that the CR-2 cotter press is no longer produced. Although the descriptive page is on the website, you'll notice there's no link to it in the index. I've heard that Harris has one or two for sale and other shops might, too. They come up on ebay from time to time. Great tool, but I think a c-clamp and socket would probably do as well. (I'll go try it right now!) Oh, and I don't know why a new cotter would be required. They're not subject to sudden failure and your feet will sense immediately any play in the crankarm.

   RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by David on 12/31/2002 at 6:57:45 PM
The problem with a c-clamp is that it tends to wander around on the cotter. Possibly removing the ball-and-socket flat piece and hollowing out the end of the screw (like the Park tool) would improve it. The short lever for turning and the coarse threads also don't help. I was afraid I'd bend the bolt end of the cotter with it because the tool wouldn't stay centered. Of course, the Park tool pressed the cotter right out; that's been rusting into the crank for fifty years. Smooth as butter.

P.S. Park Tools might be able to refer you to retailers who might still have one on the shelf.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Chris, the crabby old tool magpie! on 12/31/2002 at 8:50:52 PM
I'm going to go and buy another one of the cotter pin presses. For no reason whatsoever. Just to have it on hand. That will be nine hanging up alongside the V.A.R. tool that I trudged through real aggrivation and grief and expense to own. I think they were stupid to stop making that tool. Stupid!
This and the thin 26 X 1 3/8 tires. Gee, what else can be done to help sabotage interest in these bikes?
Now folks will have to go to e- bay to search for a lousy cotter pin removal press. I was assured that this tool would remain in production. No reason to worry and we can always order another one for you. Yea, right, sure.
Shops close, things vanish and are not seen in the new updated book. All of a sudden, not available.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Warren on 12/31/2002 at 11:05:12 PM
Trust me, a c-clamp and socket doesn't come close. It's a shame they don't sell these tools anymore but let's face it, it's a dwindling market. Email Sheldon Brown at Harris Cyclery and see what he has to say.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by P.C. Kohler on 12/31/2002 at 11:13:33 PM
Well.. try and leave ONE for me.

P.C. Kohler, starting 2003 with an absurd hunt for a bloody tool.....

   RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Joe on 1/2/2003 at 1:49:21 AM
I was just out in the shed working on a '64 Hercules trying to remove the cotters and find the very topic in discussion here! I had a thought, did anyone ever try anti seize compound when installing them to facilitate removal later on?

   RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Warren on 1/2/2003 at 5:19:25 AM
I think anti-seize is counter productive, as is any lubricant. Cotters are driven in with a hammer....the nut is just to hold it in place if it loosens. You want that steel to steel surface contact to make it strong...anti-seize will encourage the friction-fit pin to loosen. Oddly enough, you rarely get any rust or corrosion problems in the cotter/axle/crank assembly anyway.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by P.C. Kohler on 1/3/2003 at 12:39:08 AM
From Calvin Jones of Park Tools:

"Thank you for your note. We do leave old tools on the site, as the site is often a reference. We have removed all links from the regular pages to this tool. If we have missed one, I apologize. I suspect you may have found this page using a search engine.
The CR-2 was a made of a cast steel body and a threaded shaft. We have not made a run of these tools in years, and the cost of the casting went up 4 times. While we do offer over 200 products in our line, we did not feel the CR-2 would be a viable tool at a greatly increased price. I own two bikes myself with cottered cranks, and understand the need for such a tool."

So there you have. Damn.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:MISC:   Crank cotters posted by Ray on 1/3/2003 at 5:01:52 PM
I do not recommend using a hammer to drive a pin home. The pin press tool works well in reverse to do this job. In a pinch I will use a plastic tipped hammer to tap it into place firmly then tighten the nut to secure it. Make sure you have a washer between the nut and the crank arm. If you accidently use the wrong pin size and sock it with a metal hammer you can wedge the pin in place and have a heck of a time removing it without the tool. You also run the risk of grooving the ramp on the pin to where it cannot seat properly and wobble when you ride. You also have to make sure you use the same size pin on both sides of the crank or you will have arms that are not at 12 and 6 o'clock. Mismatched pins will sometimes produce 12:25 and that is not good for riding or looks.

AGE / VALUE:   Rudge posted by: Will Carey on 12/31/2002 at 1:20:24 AM
I have just discovered this site. What a great find!

I have had a Rudge bicycle for many years which is complete and working for the most part. A few more years when I retire I will put it right. In the meantime I was wondering the value and want to confirm the age. It has 52 on the rear Sturmey Archer dyno hub. The hub also says Dyno Three although the shifter says 3 or 4 speed. The bike is dark maroon with a covered chain. The cover says Rudge Whitworth and the head badge says Rudge with the 'hand' and a made in Nottingham on it. It has a fork lock, but no key. There is an orginal matching pump on the down tube and a battery tube on the seat tube which I guess keeps the lights going when the bike is not in motion for the dyno hub. It has a head light and tail light both wired to the hub and battery tube. It also has matching fenders front and rear. The rear has a reflector in a white plastic mount (original??). The front fender has the remnants of a mud flap. The saddle is a vintage tattered and rotting Brooks, but still supports a rider. So, I am comfortable with this being a 1952 bicycle, but is it rare or common? Is it worth 'restoring'? Also, can I get most of the parts I may need to replace when I tear it apart?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Rudge posted by Jeff R on 12/31/2002 at 3:07:11 AM
The bike is worth restoring. Clean up the chrome and polish the paint. Don't repaint it. I think a medicore origional paint job is more desirable than a repaint. You will be able to find most of the parts that you will need. Hub parts, bottom bracket bearings, steering head bearings, and cables are availiable.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Rudge posted by P.C. Kohler on 12/31/2002 at 1:53:50 PM
Will, I have the same machine you do, although mine is a year older. Identical. This is the top-of-the-line for Rudges of the era, a De Luxe Sports Tourist (assuming yours has cable not rod brakes) and the distinctive Rudge maroon paint was reserved for only that model. So as Jeff says, very much worth restoring! Polishing compound to take off some of the "dead" paint and then brown shoe polish. The only thing on your bike that is not original is the white reflector; should be a black rubber-mount but those are little details.

You have a true classic example of an English three-speed. Enjoy! And take good care of her..

P.C. Kohler

AGE / VALUE:   Reply to McGettigan posted by: Albert on 12/30/2002 at 4:47:37 PM
Come to your own conclusions about McGettigan's character when he crafts a posting condending the following organizations have taken no position on his bike and booze outing.

The facts are these:
A Philadelphia Police community affairs officer has spoken with McGettigan. The officer later spoke to me and said McGettigan seemed unreasonable and refused to alter the activity even though he was advised against it.

The Executive Director of the Bicycle Coalition of the Delaware Valley, Dr. Snowe, had several lengthy discussions with McGettigan in which he advised against the activity. Snowe described McGettigan as hard headed.

The Philadelphia chapter of Mothers Against Drunk Driving sent McGettigan a lengthy letter in which the dangers of the activity were laid-out.

I would suggest that the doubters contact the above for verification

   Albert, and on a pos note, the GBBW posted by Michael McGettigan on 12/30/2002 at 8:18:31 PM
Albert, you are now entering into actionable territory. The facts:
1) NO Phila police community affairs officer has spoken with me. Therefore, you are fabricating a conversation and trifling with libel and slander. I challenge you to produce this officers' name and the relevant dates of your imagined conversations.

2) Neither Parker Snowe, nor the Bike Coalition have taken ANY official position on the GBBW and further, Parker Snowe has NOT advised me against this activity, nor have we had any "lengthy discussions" about ANY GBBW activities.

3) The local MADD chapter sent me a letter inquiring about the GBBW and noting that alcohol and driving don't mix. They had only a few lies from Mr. Meinster to go on BUT STILL DID discuss anything specific about the GBBW , NOR lay out any dangers of any activities of the GBBW.

Mr. Meinster's comments and lies are becoming beyond a nuisance and moving into slander and libel.... something that threatens my good reputation (as well as demolishing what's left of his) ...
Having seen many sites damaged by trollers, cranks and flamers, I am sorry that I've gone on even this much about this sorry man's problems.

Let the record show, finally, both here and via his personal email, that I have invited Mr. Meinster to come along on the Great British Bike Weekend (at no charge) to observe and if need be intercede, should he see any unsafe bicycling practices.
He, thus far, has not responded.

I'll close by noting that this year's GBBW looks to be the biggest yet, with interest from all over the U.S. and perhaps England as well....

thanks and cheers

Michael McGettigan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Reply to McGettigan posted by A. Friend on 12/31/2002 at 12:54:17 AM
WOW! I find all of this hard to believe when you concider that what you are talking about are perfectly LEGAL activities. Yeah, you can get into big trouble bad mouthing and besmerching a fine individual when there are no illegal activities involved. That's right! Having a drink or even two in PA is perfectly LEGAL!!! Getting shit-faced and driving a car or riding a bike is ILLEGAL. Any law abiding citizen can have a drink, or even two for God sake without causing anyone any harm. Most people arrested for operating a vehicle (bike or car) are DRUNK. There is a BIG difference. I personally would never drive/ride DRUNK, but I and everyone else here in the real world (including probably Albert and everyone else) have driven/ridden after a drink or two, and we all know it. Especially in the Summer. But I have to say that after all this emotional garbage, maybe it would be a good idea to drop the whole thing.....

AGE / VALUE:   Reply to McGettigan posted by: Albert on 12/30/2002 at 4:47:37 PM
Come to your own conclusions about McGettigan's when he crafts a posting condending the following organizations have taken no position on his bike and booze outing.

The facts are these:
A Philadelphia Police community affairs officer has spoken with McGettigan. The officer later spoke to me and said McGettigan seemed unreasonable and refused to alter the activity even though he was advised against it.

The Executive Director of the Bicycle Coalition of the Delaware Valley, Dr. Snowe, had several lengthy discussions with McGettigan in which he advised against the activity. Snowe described McGettigan as hard headed.

The Philadelphia chapter of Mothers Against Drunk Driving sent McGettigan a lengthy letter in which the dangers of the activity were laid-out.

I would suggest that the doubters contact the above for verification

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   CCM Tandem posted by: Warren on 12/30/2002 at 3:29:48 PM
It ain't English, it's colonial so it's close...an early 60's single speed/coaster CCM Imperial Mark IV tandem in sparkling original condition. It's still at the bike shop where I spotted it Xmas eve but I'll get it next week when they reopen. It's got inverted dropbars, Wrights mattress saddles, EA1 wheels and a 4 to 5 foot hockey stick chainguard....you could use this one to play hockey, seriously. I'm trying to figure out how to adapt a Sturmey 3 speed transmission to it...the rear triangle doesn't have a brake bridge. That creates problems for a bike that is already short on stopping power. An SA 3 speed hub with coaster brake may help but I never see them. I'm also loathe to spread the rear drops to accomodate a nexus hub (yeah, it's blasphemy but they have great brakes), because I don't want to weaken a frame that is very pedestrian to start. I may have to go fixed gear on this one. I'll have pics in a week. Any suggestions would be welcome.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   CCM Tandem posted by dafydd on 12/30/2002 at 5:12:48 PM
I'd use a S-A AT or AB, put a Mafac racer on the front. If it's that pedestrian, it's probably not worth too serious an attempt at hot-rodding. I purchased a Schwinn Twinn Sport with wild delusions of Phil Wood hubs and a cantilever fork... now I realize that it's best to just ride it and save up for something nicer. You could also consider brazing on a bridge or bosses.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   CCM Tandem posted by Fred on 1/4/2003 at 3:34:41 PM
Warren: Contact me directly, I might be able to help you with the 3 speed coaster brake hub.


AGE / VALUE:   Hello ,Mr Travel agent? posted by: Chris on 12/29/2002 at 8:54:51 PM
I sent a metal Brooks rear rack, and Sturmey-Archer dynohubs and parts to this guy on a island in the Pacific. He sent back wooden carvings. I wonder if he could help arrange a place to stay on the island until after April?
I found his picture last night with him and his bike on the white sandy beach. He seemed like a cool fellow, him and his wife and there are no cars there either.Riding in paradise missing black ice and cold mornings and especially this pub crawl discussion would be nice. I'll bring along my Park tool cotter pin press!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Hello ,Mr Travel agent? posted by Stacey on 12/29/2002 at 9:45:52 PM
Could you make room for a friend, Chris?

AGE / VALUE:   $10 bikes posted by: sam on 12/29/2002 at 3:29:41 PM
For those of us(me included)that have limited skill,buy a $10 sports bike and abuse it.You only loose 10 bucks!Remove those cotter pins,clean&grease the BB,replace the head set,open the rear hub up!Hay,it's only 10 bucks---sam

AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by: David Poston on 12/27/2002 at 12:17:51 AM
I am now trying to work up the courage to remove my cottered cranks. My original plan was to take it down to the mechanic, but I'm wondering whether I could do it myself. I just need to install a chaincase, that's all. I'm wondering whether any of you have done this when installing a chaincase, etc. I've taken a brief glance at Sheldon's article, and it looks frightfully difficult. Please advise me as to whether I should attempt this myself with my limited mechanical skills and tools or go to the shop.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by David on 12/27/2002 at 5:11:40 AM
I'm sure you've seen the discussions about removing crank cotters. If you're near Boston, you can borrow my Park cotter remover and it's E-Z. My second choice would be to use the big C-clamp and socket arrangement to press out the cotter. While you've got the crank disassembled, grease and adjust the bottom bracket. Email me off-line with specific Qs. My main advice is to avoid using hammers.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by dafydd_williams on 12/27/2002 at 7:08:12 PM
Hammers are definitely a bad scene. I tried hammering one out and succeeded in bending it sideways. Then I had the brillant idea of cutting the threaded part off and using a drift and hammer, which caused it to mushroom and of course made everything worse. I let it sit for a few months until I bought a VAR press. Took about 2 minutes once I had the tool.

Good cotters are hard the find, most of the new ones are way soft and will always loosen up. Anyone have a source for older/good quality cotters?

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by David Poston on 12/27/2002 at 7:36:18 PM
How much will a Park tool cost me? With the Park tool in hand, do you envision any problems whatsoever?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by Robert on 12/27/2002 at 10:54:31 PM
Even with the proper tool, I don't have it, when you go to replace the cotter they often need to be fitted. A file and try proposition. If you don't plan on doing it often , I would just have it done by a GOOD shop. My 2 cents.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 12/27/2002 at 11:09:26 PM
This is one of the most frequently asked questions about these bikes. I understand. But,
We have covered this topic a hundred times over.Sheldon Brown had a page on this posted long before I arrived here and then he updated it again. No offense is meant here by me saying this, we are happy to help out. After all, this is a discussion group and please don't let me shake your tree with my admittedly impatience ridden tirade on this. Ask whatever question you want and know that you are in good company.
But, I guess we just have not gotten around to posting a permanent instructions on that yet. Neither has one of the Raleigh Chopper web sites. I was thinking "Geeze, why is the whole thing not already covered and be done with it by now?"
We are repeating ourselves here and with so many things having been already covered I would think a permanent thumb guide that unfolds into whole 'say all there is to be said' guide on a question like cotter pin removal tips.
Lets move on to the new ideas, the 'as of yet unattempted projects,' the ancient tricks of the old school, old dudes. The "smile and not tell you how they did it" stuff, told at last.
I'm looking to find a pair of special pliars that will crimp the brass tubing onto a stretch of derailer cable so I can really make my own Sturmey-Archer extra long length of trigger cable that holds. If you look at the brass ferrule you'll see how it is crimped on there. I am going to have mine exact and so I seasrch for pliars. Yawn! Yeah, even I'm tapped out and uninspired. Go to Sheldonbrown.com the Raleigh Bicycle care and feeding section and type in cotter pins.
I will recommend that you remove the nut and washer and drip oil on top of the part with the threads exposed and leave the whole thing sit overnight so the oil can penetrate into the thing. Get up and dribble more oil onto it again. Wash hands and go to bed. The next day the cotter pin should come out much easier. Please use eye protection( goggles) if you get up a tree and have to drill. Listen to the guys here and read all about what Sheldon has to say on this. Go slowly and don't bend the pins over to one side.
English cotter pins are 9.5 mm and when you need new ones, post a message here and we'll figure that out on how to get you some of them. Oh, just send to Harris Cyclery (Sheldon's lair) and they'll help you out. I'm going back to bed!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by P.C. Kohler on 12/28/2002 at 2:15:17 AM
David, one of the reasons my Rudges and Raleighs get on so well with me is that I 1) ride them a lot, 2) let them race (and beat) any carbon fibre, 20-speed, spandex-clad rider what's it cycle they find on the paths, 3) oil them "little and often" with SA oil and 4) Never, ever bugger them about with my hamfisted efforts at repairs other than basic stuff. Removing cotter pins? No way. I mean how often does one ever have to even do this? My advice: take her to a good shop, leave her (don't ever watch!) and let the experts do what they are paid and trained for. Then you can clean off all the grubby finger prints and enjoy riding her. Pay the $20 and save yourself a lot of frustration.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by sam on 12/28/2002 at 2:06:44 PM
Sounded so simple when I read it,"take it to a good shop".A good shop.Now you got to find a good shop.Which is a good,no a great thing to find!---sam

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by P.C. Kohler on 12/28/2002 at 4:09:14 PM
True enough Sam, I guess I have always been favoured living in Washington D.C. and growing up with good cycle shops and lots of really nice people running them: Towpath Cycle, Cycles & Sports and District Hardware, the latter is still in business and a bastion of the English three-speed. I think most shops would have someone working there versed in the basics of cotter pins; heck this is not rocket science. And I find English three-speeds are often the object of great nostalgia and affection by those who work on them. They are becoming increasingly "in" with the young guys raised on the horrors of BMX and whatevers.

Me, I just miss the old days when cycle shops were lined with new Raleighs and Robin Hoods and the shelves filled with Brooks bags, trouser clips, Proofide, Dunlop tyre patching kits in the yellow tins, those "pen" air-pressure gauges, and the place was redolent with the aroma of fresh enamel, SA oil, new tyres and leather saddles.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 12/28/2002 at 6:51:41 PM
We spend time here to tell folks how to do this type stuff themselves and still some folks say to take it to the shop. It's your choice.
Well, print out the info and take that to the shop in case they don't know how to do it.
Most shops these days don't deal with these on a regular basis. They most likely won't have the cotter pins on hand and if they do, they will be cheapies. Show them the printouts from the web and they'll say things like, "Thats very good, Where did you find this?"
It is not easy to go out and find a good shop unless you use one that is recommended by the group here. You'll pay a lot,and have to leave it and you'll risk who knows what by leaving it. I would not send the bike in with anything else but the basic 3 speed hub/wheel. I have heard stories about F.W.'S F.M., and other rare hubs being lost and switched out for A.W.'s ( basic three speeds)
You'll run into the attitudes like: These are obsolete, you can't get parts, we don't work on these, that type attitude. They'll look down their nose at your bike and think you to be strange and eccentric. Most shops don't care about the older stuff, just selling you a new mountain bike.
Take it into the shop? This is not like overhauling a 3 speed rear dynohub. It's cotter pins.
I think of all the things folks like Edward has done and what I have done and I shake my head.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by Chris on 12/28/2002 at 7:36:45 PM
Go to:

You can do this!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 12/28/2002 at 8:30:10 PM
Actually, unless you like riding on worn out spindles and bottombracket cups and if you like running the thing on 1960's grease and pitted/cracked ball bearings then you are right. You don't have to open it up.
But if you want the Sheffield Steel to run smoothly and quietly and properly then yes, you have to open it up and that means removing the cotter pins to get in there. I was fooling with cotter pins when I was twelve!
I remember being questioned "What do you mean, you can't?" He would frown and point at the tools and as long as I put things back in their proper place and did not leave it scattered on the bench, I was allowed acess and I was taught. Acting like I had trouble tackling new tasks and being afraid to try bothered many of my bike mentor fellows big time. I stoped saying "Can't" because I didn't want to get tossed out and lose the chance to have him teach me. Yes, I was scared and nervous, but that had to go. Teacher was not going to play that!
Every bike I ever got ahold of and intended to ride was immediately opened up so I could service it.
These are adjusted so those cranks just spin and spin. The only thing to be worrying about is where to find 26 T.P.I. cups and spindles.

Even if you can't find these (and you can, if you look) you still should replace ball berarings and de gump/ re- grease it.Remove the varnished, dried, hardened grease and insect bodies and clean it out. I always want to know the status of the bicycle's engine room (the bottom bracket) before I set off for a ride.
I don't want to have a mechanical breakdown in case I meet up with that ugly, large, slobbering dog on the other side of the neighborhood that lives to chase me. Can you just imagine telling the dog or the person.
"Please don't chew me into ribbons today, It's not a good time, you see, I have to overhaul my bike."
No, that dog is going to grin and then bite and not stop to listen. Or the weirdo's that jumped out of their car to harrass you.( Plus folks would be asking "How'd it get ahold of you, Chris"
Ball bearings crack and break and after 45 years or whatever. It can happen. These are 1/4 th size and you can find these at any bicycle shop.
The neatest thing is tinkering until it is perfectly adjusted and running in lithium grease and oil on new parts. It's not as fun to ride if you don't have it in tip top order. After visiting these sites and reading and scaring up tools then you should not be so ham handed. But, suit yourself.
I broke my wiper switch in the car. It came clear off and the wipers kept going. It was unpleasent . I went and bought the part, asked questions, got a schematic diagram and sat down and fixed the thing myself. I looked at it, and went slowly, and studied it and asked questions again. I had tools everywhere. The old part slid out and the new part slid in. I hooked it all up, put every screw back in and It's all working perfectly. I had diagrams in my hand and I danced a jig on the lawn and I'm happy again.
I did not leave it, did not allow god knows to do it for me and I saved a lot of $$$ in labor charges. It's working and I did this as inexpensively as I could have. No mechanic droped cigarette ash on my velour and charged me to do it. No $268.34 bill on the thing. No waiting, all done!
I love to do things myself unless I am stoped by not having special tools and/ if they have not made fixing it beyond the reach of normal do- it- your- selfer. And then I go after it by searching out a book and lining up tools. It depends. Some things you have no choice on.Everybody is on a diffrent level. If cotter pin removal is not your bag, so be it. You always hear about clever and inventive folks taking things apart to see how they worked. I'm only like this when it breaks or will need servicing and then I get interested real quickly.
I have paid too often only to have things get messed up by the folks I trusted to fix it.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by P.C. Kohler on 12/29/2002 at 2:10:22 AM
You mean real men remove their own cotter pins?

P.C. Kohler, still getting dirt under his fingernails working on a neighbour's '69 Sports with a dynohub AND a rear carrier. And a loose cotter pin....

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by paul v on 12/30/2002 at 9:31:27 AM
i one day plan on having such a shop that you talk about.lots of old signs,bikes,warm timber and glass counters where you can actually see the product,lovely old time displays of accessories and bikes.some may say that im dreaming but such a place can happen if there is a need and we all know there is.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by Chris on 12/29/2002 at 8:40:35 PM
After a year or so somebody finally said Ya, know Chris, they make a tool for that! Why did you not tell me? The answer was "we enjoyed seeing you struggle!"
Why pay somebody to miss with the hammer and mar up my steel crankarms with ding marks when I can do that myself at home and save? Then they look me straight in the eye and tell me that damage was already there. Then they wave me off when I politely ask them to replace what they have damaged themselves. Do I have to photograph everything before and after it goes into a shop?

In the days of old that we wax so nostalgic over they had
rolls of cloth or leather and wooden boxes filled with tools and they knew how to repair, re-build and overhaul these things and they had all the tools to do so. Also, the money side of it. If you told your mum you spent so much money on paying a mechanic to do cotter pins she would have had a fit. The folks I hung around with and learned from would not do things for me, and if I tried they would act aggrivated and point to the tools and say "Do it yourself," and they would teach me if I needed it. Later on, I met people ( the type I have no use for) who would take it away from me, or edge me out and tell me to go away and not allow me to look on and learn. The fellow would do it himself and refuse to ever allow me to learn. Just keep me stupid looking and untaught and make it look like I was refusing to learn. Then he went to the boss and ran me down.
I looked up and realized that he had to go. Later on myself (and then we) did not rest until that idiot went skidding out the back door. It was not long, either. It was his job to teach us (myself included) "Why do you think I hired you Ron?" Ron sat around and smoked and this whole thing has conjured up bad memories. It's not my place to say who is a real man or not. I see good and bad in all sorts of people. I had a Pug dog ( a breed called a Chineese Pug) as a kid. Then I see on the news a branch of (or some of, not all) the Amish are running a puppy mill with dogs in squalid conditions. The Amish for god's sake! I threw up my dinner right there! You just never know!
All the information you need to do almost everything on and with these bikes is here. Plus a lot of hard to find parts are available and you are hooked up with all the great names and personalities in this hobby or business and both. It's not about men because women do things themselves too and often they do it better then the men do.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Removing cottered cranks posted by Peter on 12/30/2002 at 1:59:49 PM
My input is from experience of working on my own British bikes in the UK from being a boy in the late 50s, i.e. I all the bikes I learned on had cotter-pinned bottom brackets.
We always used to bash cotter pins out with a hammer with no support, we always ruined the threads, but regarded a cotter pin as a 'use once' item anyway. We never damaged a bottom bracket in the process.
These days I still use a hammer, but I soak the pin in penetrating fluid before I start, cushion the hammer blow with a piece of hardwood (perhaps used end-on as a 'drift'), and most importantly support the threaded end of the pin and crank face in the end of a piece of 3/4" metal pipe cut to length for the purpose, resting on a concrete floor.

This last makes all the difference, never fails. Helps if you can get someone else to hold the bike upright while you manipulate hammer, pipe and hardwood.

I always reckon to file down new pins to fit, I'd regard it as a distinct bonus if they fit with no filing.