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Archived: English Roadsters

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Cotter Presses posted by: Eric on 2/27/2003 at 2:20:00 PM
Hello all. While I don't have any stock or personal interests in ebay, for those looking for cotter press, they have a few for auction. see items 2713812590, 2713810978, 2713808958. Now back to our story......

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Cotter Presses posted by David on 2/27/2003 at 2:41:45 PM
I wonder why this guy is using 3 different Ebay IDs (bikerman59, thumper68_2000, biglots2003) to sell all this bike stuff. In case he gets negative feedback he can discontinue using one? I hope he actually has 3 presses and not just 3 auctions.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Cotter Presses posted by Eric on 2/28/2003 at 8:13:48 PM
I understand and would check out the buyers feedback. Again, I don't know the guy, don't have any gains or interest in the item. Just a messenger to inform folks who are interested.


ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   raleigh sprite posted by: ron on 2/27/2003 at 4:26:58 AM
when did raleigh start making the sprite raleigh? did they ever make a roadster, and if so are they rare.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   raleigh sprite posted by George on 3/2/2003 at 6:12:18 PM
Hey Ron, I'm no expert on the history of Raleigh but I do love them and own a few. I have a Sprite from the late sixties. It has an internal SA five speed, I believe that later models came with five speed deralliers and 27' wheels(internal 5 speed is less common). Every Sprite I've seen has been or originally was a 5 speed. In my opinion they are rarer than the Sports but not nearly as rare as a Tourist, that's where I live anyway(Northeast USA). I like my Sprite but I find the internal 5 speed finnicky, partly my own fault for insisting on using the original shifters, I've restored it to the correct period(hate that term). While technically not a Roadster (neither is the Sports) often refered to as Roadsters. Hope this helps. George

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   raleigh sprite posted by: ron on 2/27/2003 at 4:26:58 AM
when did raleigh start making the sprite raleigh? did they ever make a roadster, and if so are they rare.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   WANTED RALEIGH ROADSTER 50'S posted by: ron on 2/27/2003 at 4:23:19 AM
must have enclosed chain guard, and rod brakes, 28 inch wheels, thanks.

AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by: Chris on 2/27/2003 at 2:12:41 AM
510.00 and it's not over yet!
E- bay item #2712232835

You just never know.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by M.R. on 2/27/2003 at 1:26:04 PM
Oh my God! I wonder what my NOS '78 with full chain case would go for!!! I never meant to sell it, but......

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by Cal on 2/27/2003 at 2:57:12 PM
They're selling a rough Tourist here on oldrhodes for around $250. Maybe I can buy that and flip it on ebay!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by M.R. on 2/27/2003 at 8:10:19 PM

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by Chris on 2/27/2003 at 9:36:11 PM
Seeing this happen is great, I was thinking that the price these fetch has come down because of e- bay. It brings back fond memories.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/27/2003 at 11:04:38 PM
$611.. well to put that in some perspective, let us recall how much these machines cost new near the end.

Here is my receipt for my DL-1, serial NL9000707, dated 21 April 1981, from Cycles & Sports, Washington, D.C.:

DL-1, 24" frame, 3-speed, gents $264.95
kickstand $ 8.95
reflector on rear fender $ 1.95
bag, rear, Raleigh $ 10.95

total $283.86
tax $ 17.03

TOTAL $300.83

So, she's doubled her value in 22 years. Iraqi war bonds would have done about as well. So, $611.00 is fair value I guess considering what Raleigh USA get for their Asian-made junk now.

Me, I would have bought that 1958 Raleigh Trent that sold for a fiver the other week!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by Chris on 2/28/2003 at 1:28:41 AM
No white stripe on the rear mudguard either.
Seller said it's a time warp machine. The secret's out!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by Geoff Rogers on 2/28/2003 at 4:17:04 AM
I confess. The bike is (or was) mine. I did try to sell it through this forum last summer, but didn't have much luck, so I tried ebay. I was surprised at the result, I must admit!
Now, Chris, as to the white stripe on the rear mudguard, what exactly do you mean? This bike is absolutely, 100 percent original, I am sure of this. The lining on the fenders is pretty close to perfect, the original tires still have mold marks on the tread, the pedals are unworn, even the bearing caps on the outside edges of them are scrape-free. It looks to me as though it was bought in 1975 and never ridden. But I am curious about the white stripe. Do you mean the lower portion of the mudguard should be painted white?
I stand behind this bike, and will cheerfully refund the buyer's money if it is not as advertised. There: you are all my witnesses!
Meanwhile, I will keep riding my ratty 28" '66 Dunelt. This DL1 is too nice for the likes of me!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by David on 2/28/2003 at 5:44:58 PM
Don't the later DL1s lack both the mudguard-mounted reflector AND the white stripe on the end? Thanks to US DOT, maybe?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by Chris on 2/28/2003 at 8:08:17 PM
I believe the bike to be 100% original as it was the day it left Nottingham.
Without question. The bicycle is fine.
We have been chewing on this white stripe issue and trying to figure it all out.
Some Raleigh's had the white stripe and many did not.
There was a change to a bigger(ugly) reflector that some say was mandated by an updated regulation. It's all part of the history on these.
It interfered with the bicycle's look and character but ya gotta do what ya gotta do and they did.
Myself,I love the all black rear mudguard with just the smaller earlier rear reflector.
The bicycle went through changes and this one is a great example of one from this spot in time.
The seat is beautiful on this.

The Green Royal Roadster I took delivery of in 1987-88 which was one of five left in wharehouse reserved for Raleigh bigwigs came with the white stripe. It turned out that only three were actually spoken for.The other two were available and a pal got the other one.
I was the last regular customer(non- Raleigh employee) to take delivery of a D.L.1 which by that time had been re- named to Royal Roadster.
After that,there were only parts available from Nottingham and that was winding down.Tires were Cheng Shin by then and not Semperet. Still, the bike had Semperet tires. It was an odd sight, an assembledge of left over parts. They were trying to get them from Africa and back to Nottingham but it was tricky. I went after motorized African Raleigh D.L.1'S too. That frame had been changed, the familiar Raleigh bottom bracket was changed to this icky- finished 24 T.P.I. set and the green paint was changed to a chip resistent powder coat that didn't resist chips. My heart fell at once as I saw that paint. Still, it had an enclosed chaincase on it. The chrome on the (changed again) handlebar rake was not so great. It was the last hurrah for the D.L.1. Cost was way over $700.00(with shipping) and getting it here was a real pain.
Shop and jobber folk were stunned! You did what?? That is what?? He called and checked and I remember the whiskers sticking up on his chin. It was by the book. More of the "You sold it to him? That idiot??? Eyes blazing.
Actually, these days I am doing a lot less with these bikes than I used to.
This was fun, I was at the right time at the right place and I had nerve!
The big mistake was letting Mr. Debates Sr.'s( Of Red Devil's racing fame) personal bike slip from my grasp. It had proto-type Campagnolo equipment on it. He hob-knobed with Tullio. I made money but I messed up serriously! His wifes bike and the daughters bike I also had. I still own many of the man's personal building and cycle repair tools to this day and they are not for sale. The machine had silk tires, and was light as a feather! Amazing! The book? The book with those clippings? It was family history and she did not care to allow something published about it. I don't know what happened to it. I tried, but pals were not believing me and thus I was alone on it. I was green, had not met enough folks yet and was not yet schooled on who in this is a good guy and who is to be avoided or handled carefully. I did not drink and was not like the other cycle people that had contacted her. She liked me and I liked her. The other things like the racers machines I do not know what happened with that. Getting into that is a problem becauser of the way people act and they don't share anything without being connected and paying them and then they'll keep the best material screened from you. Not everybody is like this. It never would have happened if her grandson had not beat up grandma's bike on a visit. I repaired it,then bought it. She was disgusted and said "You wanna hear a story, You have any money? Can you go get them? I have them at the other house and we did.
When somebody old tells you that "Poppa made me a new fork after I caught it in a trolly track" listen to them. Yes, I love gettng all the weirdo's because one out of 1000 is to be believed and taken serroiusly.
Later on, I swept in and under one of the most aggressive,nasty, cunning,talented,well connected, experienced and well known figures in this and I ate his lunch/dinner and good!
It's been a wild ride! I'm not caring all that much to go to the Cirque but I have some things I'll lend to a pal and it may get shown.
Had I had any of this that is available today I would have that bike today. It was sold and then he sold it and it was sold again. I went to him, and we tried but where it is today I do not know. I have pictures of this bike somewhere.Other things are in the works now also.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by Chris on 2/28/2003 at 8:39:15 PM
Show them that you care, that you're serious and they'll open up a rollo-dex and arrange it for you. You'll go with a letter of introduction but you'll also be going to bring them back from whatever evil mess they got themselves into. The fellow was a drunk, his career over but "This guy Chris" went to California to "Pull you back from Indian Territory" He stoped and looked and listened and I got the assignment. It broke my heart however. Another time I got in touch of the fellow who wrote the book and I said that "I went chasing this stuff and this is what happened." It was unbelievable and he droped the glass and looked at me open mouthed. There was stuff he left out of the book. There usually is. My part and his part together made up the remaining parts and we went together.
I have to stop here. I took it all in, I believed when others did not, When they critizised I ignored them, when they got weird or nasty I went on alone. I never stoped believing and trying and going on with faith and wonder and devoted, patient interest.
I would not have missed a minute of it, but I would have held onto more of the souviners.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Raleigh Tourist 1975 posted by Chris on 2/28/2003 at 9:01:18 PM
They were at the end of the run. Shop went back to the 1930's. I was not hooked up with others that they didn't want involved when it was time to close it up.
The keys went flying and he caught them with a leather gloved hand. "Take Chris over there, we have the things he wants" "Of course they never made these, that why it's a prototype stupid"
That was fun too. There are reasons why things go headlong into landfil. Many times it's so other folks that they don't like or don't know can't profit from what they have been holding onto for 70 years. People retire and don't care anymore. It's a sick version of "take it with you so others don't get it."
Sure beats the time needed to shred it too. Other reasons and it could be anything. I know you only want the bike and you can have it. I know you don't know or care about those paper files but please come out of there and it isn't because you might get hurt and sue. You don't understand and don't need to either.
What's up with that? I'll never know.Nobody will, not ever.
Pirates dumped gold and treasures overboard with zeal and passion if somebody got too near. It still happens.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Crank Axle Slipping posted by: John on 2/26/2003 at 8:29:33 PM
Recently I was lucky enough to find a complete 1970 Raleigh Sports, with excellent paint. When I got it home and finally took it for a ride, the pedals would go around with some resistance, but the bike wouldn't go forward very well. At first I thought the SA 3 speed hub was slipping since the bike had obviously been sitting for some time so I checked and cleaned all the pawls to make sure they weren't gunked up. There was some old residue in the hub, but cleaned easily and everything looked good. I got back on the bike and the same thing happened. This time I looked closer and discovered the bottom bracket axle was spinning in the chainring while the pedals were turned. Before I get involved trying to remove the crank and destroying the wedge I would like to know if anyone else has had a similiar problem and if so, is there a quick fix? Any info is appreciated!

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Crank Axle Slipping posted by M.R. on 2/27/2003 at 1:43:11 PM
Yep! that's the answer. Someone had it before you, and did not understand that the cotters need to be kept tight, so they simply kept riding the bike even though there was a noticable thumping, and knocking in the crank, and one day it simply wore and pounded the pin to the point that the crank could slip all the way around. It's an old story. You can fix it yourself for about $4 Just buy new pins(they don't have to be english, you can find the right size in an aftermarket pin in GOOD bike shops). Simply follow the directions available here somewhere to install the new pins.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Crank Axle Slipping posted by Stacey on 2/27/2003 at 3:25:52 PM
If I'm understanding correctly John, the crank arms are fixed fast to the BB spindle... it's the chainwheel that is slipping where it is swedged on to the right side crank arm, yes?

If that's the case, I've never experienced a failure of of that joint, but believe that the only repair is replacement of that crank arm. It's just a matter of pressing out the cotter, removing the defective crank arm, installing a servicable unit, pressing in a new cotter and cinching up the nut. Should be about a 10 min. job once you have the new crank arm... longer if you have a full chaincase.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Crank Axle Slipping posted by John on 2/27/2003 at 5:26:28 PM
Thanks for your responses. Unfortunately I don't think the cotters are the problem. The crank arms are still secure on the bb axle. The axle and crank arms turn together, but the chainring does not. I was wondering if a couple of spot welds where the crankarm is swedged to the chainring would ruin the asthetics since I don't have a replacement yet. Any ideas?

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Crank Axle Slipping posted by Max M. on 2/27/2003 at 6:27:35 AM
My $0.02 worth of advice. My 69 Sports had a similar issue. It must have been the cotters that they used those years... I had my local shop fit a nice tight new pair of cotters and it never slipped again. The crank arms were rotating on the axle and the old pin had gotten worn. Aside from that the bike has been a very reliable tank with dynahub lighting. I use it to commute to work daily.
Good luck.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Crank Axle Slipping posted by M. R. on 2/28/2003 at 3:37:17 PM
Hey I didn't realize that! You need a new crank. Spot welds will work, but you really need a new crank. I have one if your interested.

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Crank Axle Slipping posted by John on 3/1/2003 at 4:57:23 PM
I'm interested in the Raleigh crank. Please send the particulars.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh DL1 pair posted by: Tom on 2/26/2003 at 4:57:45 AM
Here is a pair of Raleigh DL1 bikes on ebay. The have a motor attached to them. Might be worth the purchase and sell the motors. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=12&item=2511361654&rd=1

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh DL1 pair posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 2/27/2003 at 11:06:12 PM
If you want to see one of these bicycles ridden on film. And get a look at one of these you want to get ahold of the "Son of the Pink Panther" video. There is a lengthy scene in it that is excellent.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh DL1 pair posted by Ian on 2/26/2003 at 8:47:43 AM
Although the motor on the ladies bike and the one in the spare wheel are Cyclemasters the one on the mens is even more interesting. It looks to be a Mosquito made by Garelli of Italy and also made under license in England by Crossley. Powrcycles are another whole different ballgame in cycle history and great fun to play with. If anybody goes for these and wants info or contacts just email me. Regards, Ian.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh DL1 pair posted by Mark R. on 2/26/2003 at 7:39:18 PM

Here's another one on a Forever!

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1930 Raleigh Racer posted by: Tom on 2/26/2003 at 4:52:22 AM
Here is a nice Raleigh on ebay. It is in very nice shape. May be one of the earliest RRA style Raleighs from the 1930's. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=420&item=2161916464&rd=1

AGE / VALUE:   frame angles posted by: sam on 2/26/2003 at 3:04:14 AM
How do you measure frame angles? Like Seat tube angle,is this the degrees measured between the seat tube and the top tube? And head tube angle? And what frame angles does the DL1 have?Sorry for the 50 question game,I'd like to start the mead project by compairing the English roadester to it's American cousin.----sam

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   frame angles posted by Frank on 2/26/2003 at 4:28:11 PM
I don't know how it's normally done, but it might not so easy to obtain an accurate measurement with a protractor arrangement. Alternatively, for the rear triangle of the frame, you might get a fairly close measurement by using the following trigonometric identity, which works for any triangle:
A = arc cos [(b^^2 + c^^2 - a^^2) / (2bc)],
where A is an angle of the triangle, b and c are the lengths of the sides adjacent to A, and a is the length of the opposite side.
(It seems to me that it would be easier to measure lengths, rather than the angles directly.)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   frame angles posted by Ron on 2/27/2003 at 1:17:58 AM
The seat tube and head tube angles are measured in relation to the ground. Sears sells a magnetic protractor that can be attatched to just about anything to measure the angle. It has a pendulum, so as long as the bike is on a level surface, it will give you the correct angle.
Measuring the inside angle between the seat and top tubes will only work if the top tube is horizontal (many are not).

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   frame angles posted by sam on 2/27/2003 at 1:32:06 AM
That's what I needed to know,Ron,Thinks.By rights Frank did answer the question I ask,but I needed to know the relation of the angles.

AGE / VALUE:   What you always wanted to know about that "white stripe" posted by: David Poston on 2/24/2003 at 11:12:17 PM
At least, I always wanted to know more about it:



   RE:AGE / VALUE: What you always wanted to know about that posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/25/2003 at 12:34:19 AM
Thanks, David... Martin's web site is great.

And that white stripe... just an essential part of a British cycle! How well I remember getting my first brand new DL-1 home and painting that on the rear mudguard within the first 30 minutes. By 1979, it had been deleted as a factory-applied item in favour of those wretched reflectors.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: What you always wanted to know about that posted by Jeff R on 2/25/2003 at 1:26:27 AM
My Phillips made early 50's Indian Scout and Indian Princess do not have the classic white stripe. Probably because they were made for the American market only.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   What you always wanted to know about that posted by David Poston on 2/25/2003 at 7:07:07 PM
I'm trying to figure out this puzzler: Despite the regulations described in the article, I noticed, in some pictures, that cycles in the UK post-1950's do NOT have the white stripe. However, all the ones here in the U.S. seem to have them. This is confusing. Perhaps some manufacturers failed to meet the regulations? It is interesting to note that PC's 1978 DL-1 did NOT have the stripe factor applied, while my 1977? DL-1 has it.


   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   What you always wanted to know about that posted by David Poston on 2/25/2003 at 7:10:03 PM

Sorry, I just re-read your post where you stated that cycles post-1979 did not have the white stripe. Maybe yours is 79, not 78? I am still confused as to why I have seen cycles from the 1950's without the stripe.


   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: What you always wanted to know about that posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/25/2003 at 9:48:49 PM
Dated 1978, bought in 1979! Both of my DL-1s (one was stolen @#$%$%) bought new in 1979 and 1981 did not have the white stripe, this was deleted with the imposition of the USDOT reflector regs for bicycles in the USA. I think this was c. 1978.

I don't recall seeing any new British cycles post-1945 without the white stripe. Maybe you are looking at older models, I believe, too, this applied to ALL machines built in the UK including those for export. Reflectors are a different story; many export machines to India, Africa did not have reflectors.

Raleigh and Rudge catalogues prior the war (at least mid 1930s on) all show the white stripe as well. So the regs simply followed the best industry practice.

P.C. Kohler, no need for white stripes on my Clubman and Lenton 'cause the whole bloomin' mudguard is white!

   RE:AGE / VALUE: What you always wanted to know about that posted by Martin Hanczyc on 2/26/2003 at 1:08:02 AM
I do not know how long the regulations concerning the white patch remained in effect. All the information I found so far was in the 1946 Cycling Manual. I would welcome any more info.

Cheers! Martin

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by: Frank in Boise on 2/24/2003 at 7:42:46 PM
I have several questions on SA top-tube shifters which I am sure the experts here will be able to answer-

1. When were they used? Did they vanish at some point in the 50's in a transition to handlebar-mounted shifters?

2. How are they mounted - does one use a fulcrum clamp and a short length of cable housing, or does the cable go directly from the shifter to the pulley?

3. Do they work on all 3-speed SA hubs? (That is, the ones marked low-neutral-high.) I suppose the technical question is whether the cable travel (between gears) was the same for all the 3-speed hubs.

4. Why were they abandoned? (Do they stick or slip or tend to malfunction mechanically?)


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by Tim Powell on 2/25/2003 at 1:12:40 PM
Yes, about 1955 was the last time these were made. I have three bicycles with Top Tube shifters. They go straight to the pulley and down to the toggle chain. There were several manufacturers of these shifters around and some had quite fancy enameling on them. I have only seen ones for three speeds but in principle it would be possible to make one to fit a four speed. I find it odd that these devices post date the handle bar mounted Bullet Shifter as one would have thought that the conventional trigger would be the next logical development.


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by PETE on 2/25/2003 at 1:28:46 PM
The Top tube shifters have been around for a very long time
The first being around from the first hub in the early 1900s
One of the earlier shifters was infact a round banjo type.After this they went to a triangle shape,but the quadrant was smaller. The L-N-H is low, normal, high. Some of the early levers were N-L-H to suit the early hub arangement. Also in the late 1930s Sturmeys made a four speed top tube shifter and I've only ever seen one

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by David Poston on 2/25/2003 at 7:01:03 PM
I would also like to know the answer to Frank's question #3 and #4. If I mount one, am I asking for trouble? Do I need a period hub to go along with it?


   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by PETE on 2/25/2003 at 7:45:38 PM
Yes they will work on all Sturmey three speeds. I guess the reason they were discontined was they went out of fasion.
They work just fine as long as the protrusion on the lever
is not worn,or the hole is also not worn. Also a weak spring can cause problems. All can be repaired

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by David Poston on 2/25/2003 at 9:18:17 PM

To get these to work, do you use a regular pulley/clamp along with a regular toggle chain? What about the cable? Just cut a regular cable to length?

I've always seen these come up on e-bay, but never bid on one, for fear that it would be hard to install or use.


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by Max M. on 2/27/2003 at 6:37:38 AM
Now I have a top-tube quadrant shifter on my Phillips roadster and I think it is great. I have less clutter on my rod-brake handlebars and there are no extra cables floating around.
It mounts easily you can use the current Sturmey replacement shifter cables that have an adjustable end. They work simply and effectively and the bottom line is to avail falling onto your top-tube.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   top-tube shifters posted by Frank in Boise on 2/26/2003 at 1:30:30 AM
Tim and Pete,

Thanks for the information and advice; I'll install the shifter as indicated above, sans fulcrum clamp, with the cable straight to the pulley.

I'm trying one as a lark, in a non-authentic application: on a 1968 Robin Hood which has already been highly modified.
Mainly, I like the way the top-tube shifters look, and I also don't mind getting the shifter off of the bars, where it's always in the way when one leans the bike against a wall.

One last question: any idea how rare the top-tube shifters are? I've never actually seen one on a bicycle, but in this part of the country there are almost no old bikes on the street. The shifters seem to go for about $20-40 on ebay, I was able to get one for $27.

Thanks again,

AGE / VALUE:   Robert's bike posted by: sam on 2/23/2003 at 11:20:57 PM
Well on inspection Roberts bike may have been up graded(at the bike shop?). My hercules has a braze on for the top tube shifter.Robert's was a clamp on,and no name on the guard.But I traded Robert a green hocky stick guard to match and he has a 3 speed of correct vintage.Had a good visit.Then went by a used book store and picked up a couple of bike books.The small one ,"Bicycles", has great roadester photos,most from Italy and France.And the Mead frame arrived too---sam

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Made my day posted by: Edward in Vancouver on 2/23/2003 at 10:29:37 PM
TThe Sun was up before 7 this morning, so I got out of the house as quick as I could to get a small ride in before the rest of the house woke up. Cold, but clear, and no busses in sight, couldn't have had it better. Anyway afterwards I stopped for coffee at Granville Island, and as I was locking up my bike I noticed this older guy, around 70-ish staring at me through the window. His eyes took in the B-66, front drum brake, the rear dynohub, then his brow wrinkled when he traced the lamp's wiring to the battery tube. That's when he noticed me noticing him, so he went back to his coffee. He made eye contact with me as I entered the building, so I stopped to chat with him. Said he used to have a bike like that when he was a kid, he would squirt gasoline in the drum brakes, go screaming downhill, jam on the brakes, and let friction ignite the brakes and scare the bejesus out of everyone who looked at him. He looked at bit wistful, but then his wife came back from wherever she was, and the conversation was over. It made my day though, still can't wipe off that #$%^ eating grin off my face...

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Made my day posted by Brian on 2/24/2003 at 1:00:10 PM
Hey Edward, Reminds me of that song on Big Pink - "This Wheels on Fire!" I live next to the town where that song was recorded.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Made my day posted by Chris on 2/25/2003 at 11:04:23 PM
Great story!

AGE / VALUE:   1909 Ladies Raleigh posted by: Mike P on 2/23/2003 at 5:59:55 PM
Ebay Item #2712823396.
I have no connection to the seller or the bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1909 Ladies Raleigh posted by Matthew on 2/23/2003 at 10:00:41 PM
Oh why is it always my job to be the party pooper? This cycle is great and looks just as described with the excetion of the date. I know the frame number is said to equate to the given date but the hub could well be a K-series which if it has a 9 on would make the bike 1939, much more likely given the amount of chrome on the handlebars and wheels. I have a friend with a ladies Raliegh of the 1909 period and the plating is nickel not chrome and few models had this luxury I believe. Even if I'm barking mad and the cycle is genuinely 1909, and I have no wish to make the vendor out to be a liar, they may have more provenance than is shown or explained on E-bay, however the saddle, gear lever, rear reflector, and carrier are later additions. Caveat emptor.
I'm now ready to have Peter and Chris and other noteable worthies prove me wrong again and forgive me too! Thank you all for putting up with me. It's a pleasure knowing you all care.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   1909 Ladies Raleigh posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/23/2003 at 10:32:42 PM
If this is 1909, I'll eat my hat: a 7 3/8 Borsolino, medium grey, fine felt.

This is not even 1939, but more likely 1969.

The giveaway (well one of many): the rod brake bits are all chrome-plated. Prior to 1955, the long rod, cranks, brake guides on the forks and backstays were enamelled black.

Nor is the transfer on the downtube remotely "1909" or again 1939, not even 1949. The only place you found the word Raleigh anywhere near this era was on the gearcase and Heron's Crest on the mudguard and head. This style of transfer dates from about 1962.

P.C. Kohler, whose hat is worth rather more than this machine

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1909 Ladies Raleigh posted by Mark R. on 2/24/2003 at 1:06:12 AM
It's probably a mid to late seventies. I wrote to this fellow, as should all of us, but I am assuming I'll get a nasty e-mail AGAIN for my efforts.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1909 Ladies Raleigh posted by David on 2/24/2003 at 1:59:20 AM
Mid-to-late 70s would have a different "Raleigh" decal, so I vote for 60s. The lack of a front brake seems weird, though you can't see the handlebar clearly enough to tell if it might have been removed. The mattress saddle seems weird, too; it goes with a cheaper model. Maybe the leather was one swapped out. (These serial number lists seem to cause more trouble than they're worth!)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   1909 Ladies Raleigh posted by Mike P on 2/24/2003 at 4:26:33 AM
Hey, above Mike P. I'll come up with a different user name so as to avoid confusion. I do like yours, however, as it is most illustrious, and of the highest, almost Spra-bonderised quality.
This Mike P, known for incessant SC3 hub queries...

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:It's from the 1960's posted by Chris on 2/25/2003 at 10:26:18 PM
E- Bay -bay item #2712823396
It's a 1960's bike because of the decal scheme on the down tube. Sheldon Brown has a photo laden table guide on the Raleigh decals and equipment changes to these bikes at his web page.
The seller has corrected it after several e-mails. The hub date is given, it's from the 1960's.
I am noticing : wrong handlegrips, They are English at least. bent rod gear, yes that can be straightened but still. wrong seat,(should be leather Brooks B-72 or a B-66
a wrong rear rack,( Should be a German alloy Pletcher or a Raleigh used Presti-tube minor brand. Anyways this is a American rear rack and out of place looking. Heavy too ( American)
paint chipping on the rear mudguard, silver paint or something on the rear rim/ lifting(crappy) chrome on the rim too.
Spoke threading showing also. I'd like to see these wheels on their insides to see if the spokes are all the way through the nipple and if they-re ground off there or not.
The frame is nice, it is a ladies style and it is long looking. There is a rumor of two diffrent sizes of frame for this model bike. A tall womans model. I mean to say that some of these ladies D.L.1.L's (l meaning ladies) were longer than some of the others. There is no proof of that except I heard that once. Also some of these look longer visually to me.
The square mudguards are original but the round type is nicer and these square ones are not the norm. They're masculine looking on a ladies frame bike. Original Raleigh yes, but it's weird.
This is a very smooth, wonderfully riding machine. I love these, they are easy to ride and with a Sturmey- Archer 4 speed hub I can go all day on it. This is one of the few bikes I'll ride and not give a rip that I'm a guy riding as ladies frame bike. It's that nice to ride and carry groceries on. Easy,laid back, smooth and it can get up and go!
Also ,I love this particular decal scheme. The way the letters are written. Excellent. This was the bike that got me hooked and started it all. This exact model, only it had round mudguards (fenders)
This was intended for sale in the States, because of the:
No enclosed chainguard,no bell, no mudflaps, no lights, a rear rack added at the cycle shop out of their inventory after the sale.

As with any bike you buy without physically traveling to see it before you buy it, Once you get it assembled and ready to ride take it for a spin and see if you can ride down the street no hands to see if it will glide along of if it dives to one side or the other. If you need to have a hand on the handlebars to keep it straight then something is off like a bent fork or something.
You should be able to steer it (a bit anyways) by leaning your butt to the left or the right.
We kept the baby seat on it and shoved a large bag of groceries in that and with the wrap around nature of the plastic seat and with a good bunjie cord, off you go. I sit here with new ideas that have not been done yet as I ramble on.
The front fork looks good but that's not a very good test. Ya gotta ride it.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:It's from the 1960's posted by Chris on 2/25/2003 at 10:33:46 PM
Taking a look at that loop frame and not probably being a bicycle expert I can understand how a seller can make a mistake.
The older ladies frames were loopier.The handlebars came up higher. There was a frame change to these Raleigh Tourist D.L.1. L model bikes after like 1950? or so in there.
A set of Indian rims,a better seat, a few touches and off you go.
This will go cheap I think and if you have parts and wanna a ladies project bike this is a good one.Nice frame and handlebars, a fixer upper.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:It's from the 1960's posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/26/2003 at 3:22:04 AM
The square cut mudguards on DL-1s were replaced by the more rounded ones about 1970. I can't decide which style I prefer: my DL-1 of course has the rounded style; my wife's DL1-L has the square cut type.

The only change to the ladies frame on DL-1Ls that I am aware of was the post-war deletion of the lug connecting the top and down tube at their closest point. This unsightly practice continued on lesser makes such as New Hudson into the 1950s. I know what you mean when you say that DL-1Ls look "longer"; it's optical I think due to the frame geometry. For the same reason, to my eyes, a Popular in a 26" frame looks "smaller" as the angles close up. Small until you try getting asride the thing of course!

P.C. Kohler

PS: the lister of this cycle has been a real gentleman about all this. I've had several nice e-mails from him. This has once again shown me that eBay is 99.986 per cent really nice, honest people, buyers and sellers.

MISC:   Oil posted by: David on 2/23/2003 at 1:42:15 PM
I've run a few fool's errands to auto parts stores and it appears the only way I'll get a quart of 20W non-detergent oil is to buy a case. (I don't NEED a case!) If several Oldroads people are interested in dropping by (Arlington, MA) or paying for shipping, it might be worthwhile to do it. Let me know. (Please, let's not argue about "proper" SA oil this time!)