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Archived: English Roadsters

MISC:   Grants Brand posted by: Demarest on 8/13/2003 at 3:14:50 PM
GRANTS, Olive Green, close to the color of a John Deere, unsure of the hub.

Maybe in some speak about SA Hubs and Rod Brakes, one feels like one is a novice, however,

I thoroughly checked out the archives for this area, for this brand and it was not mentioned. Must have been a dept. store, I mean doesn't "Grants" sound like a Woolsworth type of store, maybe localized to one region. The head badge, was a decal, a diamond, now looking a bit yellowed, maybe that was the orginal color with Grants written inside it. Just passing this new sighting along. 26 inch wheels, white seat, white grips, I believe, it had the grip shifter. Very good shape.

I've got to believe, seeing this bike parked outside of the library and a Motobecane as well, must have been more than coincidence, seeing my post of just a few days ago. Then, one doesn't want to be paranoid as well.

   RE:MISC:   Grants Brand posted by Mark R. on 8/13/2003 at 3:42:15 PM
YES! We had a "Grants" dept. store here in Millville NJ when I was a kid ( it's a pool hall now:-), and yes they DID sell their own brand of bike.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Grants Brand posted by Demarest on 8/13/2003 at 4:01:40 PM
In a way, I guess, I am a sentimentalist; there is a poem on the net somewhere, maybe I'll come back later, and get it when I have more time, a poem for a three (3) speed and if one goes to a search engine, you will probably be able to find it. Perhaps that's better.

I don't know, if Grants was here, in Minnesota: maybe the bike went on a trek from the North East, but ....

John Deere, I think, was pretty strong up here (still is, maybe not the bikes); but back to my point, made me feel sentimental, down on Payne Avenue in St. Paul, there is a Tru Hardware store, and sure enough, one can still see (or could last year at least), bikes, mainly kids bikes placed in the window for sale and some of those were not sparkling brand new by any means. The way things use to be (Sigh).

But I haven't been or seen an LBS in a Mall, so that's a good thing, heard Malls are in decline, XMarts, Big Boxes on the upswing; in the Vintage lightweights, believe someone wrote there or here, about seeing a dual suspension Mountain Bike at Target for $89 ; last summer, Target had some Mountain Bike for about $69 and less. You wouldn't believe it, no I didn't buy it, but I did try to ride it on the store floor a little bit, it didn't ride so well, but maybe it was a bit small.

Frequenting some of the big boxes, I can remember, at least 2 times, seeing parents buy their children bikes at these places, I don't really want to put down their products to much.

I've read some sentimental types of rants in this forum, excuse me, while I ....

   RE:MISC:   Grants Brand posted by Joe on 8/14/2003 at 8:15:52 AM
Grants was a store a lot like Woolworths. They were common at least in the mid-Atlantic region, mostly in NY and NJ I believe. They went belly up in the mid to late 70's. I would assume that the bikes were made by one of the common manufacturers like Huffy, Murray, or Columbia. All of the bikes I've seen with the Grant's logo have been lower end models with one piece cranks. I think I still have one in the garage, and yes, it's that same green. Grant's disappeared in this area around the time that K-Mart came to town.

   RE:MISC:   Grants Brand posted by Ron on 8/14/2003 at 12:50:00 PM
My sister worked at Grants City about 20 years ago here in Ohio. The stores in this area were bought by Ames Dept. Stores in the mid 80s. Grants was smaller, like a Woolworth's. Grants City was bigger, like a Kmart. I don't recall what kind of bikes they had. All the store brands, except Sears, were either Huffy, Murray, or Columbia, until the Chinese invasion. It seemed that nearly every chain of stores had their name on their bikes.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Grants Brand posted by Chris on 8/14/2003 at 5:44:11 PM
Did you walk down the creaking wooden stairs below the shop with it's wooden floors?
Did you buy up old inventory? Salvage and rescue counters and seats and light fixtures?
Or did it all go to landfil.
When it closed up, where were you?

   re:MISC:   Grants Brand posted by Demarest on 8/15/2003 at 12:51:58 AM
Makes me wonder, what kind of off brands, there might be? Whites Auto Stores? Gibsons? Woolco?

And of course, in mentioning Sears, one can not forget Montgomery Wards as well; Hawthorne,

Now, I don't know if Hawthorne was always Montgomery Wards, some "history" of the American Bike at the library, photo coffee table styled book, showed some old ads, like from the 20s or 30s of Hawthorne bikes, years ago, right after college, by default, I got to use a Hawthorne, lady's bike, and really enjoyed it. I would like to see how content I would be to use it now. It was a 10 speed however.

I know it has surely been mentioned, my research showed, a company Cleveland (named that to avoid confusion) manufactured Hawthornes as well as other bicycles. Then the stores put their names on it. But who knows, what part of history and time this is. Perhaps, Cleveland has a tie in with Roadmaster. Speaking of reflectors, I am strapped for money, but Ebay had an auction for one, Cleveland imprinted on it. No special significance to me, but if I had the time, space and funds, why not?

   RE:MISC:   Grants Brand posted by Demarest on 8/15/2003 at 1:07:31 AM
point of info; found a Hawthorne unicycle http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3622177510&category=2904 right now at Ebay, type in Hawthorn with out the e, may find more, that is the problem with finding things, in auction sometimes.

One can mark favorite searches, still slips through the cracks, I have 3 Speed, and Three Speed, in Transportation Collectibles and the Bike section on Ebay, then someone comes along, their abbreviation is 3 SPD, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3621726607&category=7298 , see this Robin Hood, nice looking, again, if I had the extra time.

    Grants Brand posted by Brian on 8/15/2003 at 10:46:24 AM
Funny thing - I was reading listees recounts of Grants department stores, & am wearing my 1960's Grant summer shirt. It looks as good as new, and it was Made in Japan (remember when!) with the high quality associated with many other Japanese products (so much nicer than much of the cheap attire at Walmart) - Life is full of coincidence!

MISC:   Trying to identify Vintage Rod Brake bike posted by: Joe on 8/13/2003 at 6:08:27 AM
Hi, I recently aquired an old rod brake style bike, unfortunately it is quite rough and the head tube decal is worn almost completely away. I have posted pics of it at: http://bikepics.s5.com/ if any one has any idea of who may have been the manufacturer, you can email me from the above link or post here. I am at this point figuring it is too rough to restore, but it ma be good to someone as parts. I first need to figure out what it is. It has bolt on rear seat stays, reverse drop outs, 28" tires, and an oil port on the left side of the bottom bracket. The fork is not the usual Raleigh Tubular crown type. There is a portion of the headtube decal remaining, it appears to start with the letters "D(MB?...)" The rear hub is a single speed freewheel. The fender design is sort of flat acrossed the top, with a slight edge, not very rounded.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Joe

   RE:RE:MISC:   Trying to identify Vintage Rod Brake bike posted by Chris on 8/13/2003 at 11:48:35 PM
I think that is a Unicorn from the Humber badge. Thus it is a Humber.
An old one.
Williams chainwheel, I think. A mismatched set up?
Great for parts! I love those wide handlebars!

   RE:MISC:   Trying to identify Vintage Rod Brake bike posted by David Poston on 8/13/2003 at 7:31:18 AM
This looks like a pre-war ladies Phillips, if I'm not mistaken. The second picture reveals a remnant of the lion on the headbadge. (Others correct me if I am wrong). It looks like a nice find, except that there is a lot of rust on the frame.


   RE:RE:MISC:   Trying to identify Vintage Rod Brake bike posted by Joe on 8/14/2003 at 7:56:34 AM
It looks to me like it could be either a lion or a unicorn? Theres too much worn away to really tell without having a good decal to compare to. Might anyone here have a pic of either head decal to compare?
I was also wondering what the DMB or what ever it reads stood for, it's most likely only part of the letters but it could be a clue to who made the bike. I was guessing 1920's as far as age, only by comparing it to others of that time period. I have seen a few bikes that were similar on eBay, most of those were made in Holland. One was a Burco and another a Fongers. Each of those though had some sort of difference in the frame and all of them had riveted head badges. Most of the prewar ladies bikes I have seen have had a short connector tube midway between the two downtubes, this one has two separate tubes. Lug work is too plain to really be an identifying feature, and with a bike this old, any bolt on parts could certainly have been changed over the years.

MISC:   Last Year of the Lenton posted by: P.C. Kohler on 8/12/2003 at 9:09:01 PM
What was the last year the Raleigh Lenton Sports (1949-????and Super Lenton (1952-????) were produced?

My catalogue collection gets very weak c. 1955-65. I have a hunch these were gone by 1959 but I am guessing.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:MISC:   Last Year of the Lenton posted by Mark Thomas on 8/16/2003 at 9:39:27 PM
I have a 1955 Raleigh catalogue (UK version) and both Lenton models are listed in it. Super Lenton: model 27, Lenton Sports: model 28. Hope this helps.

   RE:RE:MISC: Last Year of the Lenton posted by P.C. Kohler on 8/16/2003 at 11:40:24 PM
Thanks Mark... the Lenton Sports also shows in the U.S. market catalogue for 1962 (on the Retro Raleighs site) in a six-speed Benelux gear configuration. No mention of frame material however and clearly near the end of the run. I THINK this was the last year. But would like to see some UK catalogues c. 1959-63 to confirm.

P.C. Kohler

AGE / VALUE:   Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by: David Poston on 8/12/2003 at 6:21:54 AM
By some stroke of luck, I finally managed to squeeze on the snap ring onto the rear sprocket on my AG dynothree hub and was about to gleefully fit the rear wheel onto my DL-1, when the reality struck me:

The hub would not fit in between the chainstays! I was able to slip in one adjuster screw on one side, but the other one would just not fit. After a closer inspection, I realized the truth: the AG hub which I had had H. Russell (COY) build into a 28" rim was intended for a "sports" bike with 26" wheels! This was the first time that I realized SA hubs differed from roadsters to sports.

The question is: What can I do? Can I remove one of the threaded washers/nuts on one side so I can fit both adjuster screws between the rear dropouts? Can I get by with one adjuster screw on my DL-1? Is there a file or manual on the web somewhere (e.g., exploded parts diagram) which shows how to adjust these hubs (i.e., roadsters vs. sports)? PC's Rollbritannia?


   RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by P.C. Kohler on 8/12/2003 at 12:38:27 PM
They are? Well, that's news to me... there's no mention of this in any Sturmey-Archer stuff I've seen David. As far as I know, you could install an ASC three-speed hub on a DL-1 as long as it had the required spoke holes and was laced to the right wheel.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by Stacey on 8/12/2003 at 2:57:03 PM
Perchance, is the Dyno-Three slightly wider than an AW? I don't know, I never had the opportunity to hold the two next to each other.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by steve on 8/12/2003 at 3:01:09 PM
I seem to recall from Tony Hadland's book that many S-A hubs were available with a longer axle for use in tandems. You might have found one of them.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by P.C. Kohler on 8/12/2003 at 5:02:20 PM
Well, I have a dynothree hub on my '78 DL-1 and on my '51 Rudge De Luxe Sports and they sure look the same size to me. There is no way Sturmey Archer could have or would have designed separate hubs for different machines: talk about a production nightmare! Maybe it's the axle but surely that can't have varied between a DL-1 and a "sports"? That means I guess the indicator rod would have had to be a different size too and I just can't see that being done.

P.C. Kohler, whose '49 Clubman has a terribly sick AM hub and who is rapidly developing a taste for single speed "fixed and free" gears!!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by David Poston on 8/12/2003 at 6:46:34 PM
I guess what I meant to say is that the AW hubs on my roadsters and sports differ in the arrangement of the washers/locknuts on either side of the hub. Comparing the rear wheel off my '72 Rudge Sports to my '77 Raleigh DL-1, I came up withthis arrangement (inside the chainstays, not including the axle nuts and washers outside):

LEFT SIDE OF HUB (moving outwards from the hub)

1) Sports. Bearing adjuster nut?, spacer?, locknut, slotted washer.
2) DL-1. Bearing adjuster nut?, locknut, roadster adjuster screw thingie.

RIGHT SIDE OF HUB (moving outwards from the sprocket)

1) Sports. Rectangular thingie, locknut, slotted washer.
2) DL-1. Rectangular thingie, roadster adjuster screw thingie.

You see, the Sports has the addition of a spacer? on the left side and a locknut on the right side which takes up more space on the axle, hence the reason why I could not add the roadster adjuster screw thingies and fit the whole thing inside the dropouts on my DL-1.

Furthermore, measuring the space between the rear dropouts on these respective cycles revealed that roadster models have about 4 1/4" between, while sports are closer to 4 1/2". A rough measurement of the width of the respective hubs with their associated nuts on either side (excluding the DL-1 adjuster screws and the Sports slotted washers)revealed that the sports was somewhere around 4 1/4" wide, while the DL-1 was closer to 4". The 1/4" gap would undoubtedly be filled by the DL-1 adjuster screw nuts on the roadster, and the washer slots on the sports.

There is probably a very simple answer to my long and contorted question; I'm sure that someone like Sheldon or Chris knows right off the bat, and I'll soon feel very foolish.

David, who has a tendency to make very simple things complicated.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 8/12/2003 at 7:13:29 PM
I am honored to be mentioned in the same sentance as Sheldon Brown but that should not be the case.
Sheldon has been writting articles for years and he is so way more advanced, learned and qualified than I. He has more resources, experience, connections, and is a old and new bicycle god as it were.
I'm near the rear, Sheldon is up leading the pack with the big dogs.
I have tried to help and answer questions, and I do know my way around this stuff but, when it comes to either me or Sheldon you will find me pointing to this cool man and his shrine to vintage bikes. I hope Sheldon lives to be 100 years old and keeps his computer with him at all times. We need him and all this will be in poorer shape should we lose this old bicycle lighthouse keeper dude.

These hubs were made to go in either the Sports or Roadster machines.
One fellow rode around the world in exactly this same model hub that you hold.
This was on a 28 inch machine too!

No, something is not right here. Like probably the washers arrangement you have on this hub.
You could slightly pull the rear end and have somebody hold it while you slide in the rear hub. I have worked on my Roadster bikes with the 28 inch wheels and had this happen but it all goes back together and a bit of a tight fit is acceptable.
You need to look at the exploded diagrams for this hub and you should look at Tony Hadlands exploded diagrams at his web site: Hadland.net there is a link and ALL the hubs are shown there in P.D.F. format files that take a few moments to load. Type in: Tony Hadlands web site and find his bike site.
Still, it is all there dissembly and re- assemble instructions there and you can remove a washer or spacer if needed.

You could put in a 3 or 4 speed dyno hub or even a drum brake hub in this bike and it should fit.
You need the serrated spacer washer and the chain adjuster in the set up.
We should be able to get you back together but you can always e- mail Sheldon and ask but you should look over his site first.

Check out Tony Hadland's site for notes on adjustment. This info is out there on the web just gotta find it!
Good Luck,

It is hard in a minor sense not being able to see this in person but we and you DO have the diagrams and it should be fine.

Take the printed diagrams of the hub to the bike shop and /or your old bike helper fellow in your area.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by Chris on 8/12/2003 at 7:17:30 PM
Leave out the flat, non- grooved or plain washer out of the thing and try it.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by Chris on 8/12/2003 at 7:31:39 PM
Can he put the serrated, grooved washer on the OUTSIDE of the bike? I think so.
I usually put them on the INSIDE but if there is a tight fit problem AFTER he removes the plain washer than that might be a way to fix the problem. As long as David has the washer with the groves with the part that fits in there he is ok.
The adjuster is next to the frame with the axle going through the frame and then the serrated grooved washer put up against the frame then the regular right and left axle nuts.

Washers on the outside of the axle nuts?
I think it is best done with them on the inside and omit a plain washer.

You cannot omit the cone lock washer tab thing. Then you need the thin washer and thenn you should have the adjuster piece then the serrated grooved washer then the frame.
On the outside you need space for a fender wire attachment unless it is routed differently on your bike.

I use a serrated washer on the inside and a round dynohub type flat toothed washer on the outside then the nuts and you are all done.

Good Luck,
Wishing I was there with the parts drawers opened up to help out. It is mix and match to a small extent when getting these together.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Touris posted by Chris on 8/13/2003 at 10:33:19 PM
Go do a internet search under : search
type in:

Tony Hadlands website.
just like that.
It should pop up.
click on that.
wade thru the site, find the bicycle gears section and go read all he has there that may shed light.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Tou posted by Chris on 8/13/2003 at 10:37:58 PM
Tighten it up and then back it off half a turn. Don't panic, you can get it back to where it should be.

Where are the rear fender stays attached? Do these go on the rear hub axle or are they out of the picture?

Have you tried to open up the rear fork ends of the bike to get this hub in there?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Tou posted by Chris on 8/13/2003 at 10:41:15 PM
If you do a search like I said you should be able to click away and get there without worrying about the stupid tilde character or whatever that cursed little squiggley line thingie is called.

I can't believe that thing would stop you from accessing Tony's site.
But I could be wrong.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by Chris on 8/12/2003 at 7:33:13 PM
Should be: then you need the thin lock nut. Not thin washer.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by David Poston on 8/12/2003 at 9:10:01 PM

Thanks for the long posts.

Just to clear some things up here:


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by David Poston on 8/12/2003 at 9:20:49 PM
(Accidently hit "reply" too soon). Continued...

1) Why does a "sports" AW hub (same as my AG dynothree hub) have the hexagonal locknut on the outside of the rectangular thingie on the sprocket side, while my DL-1 AW hub does not? Do I need to keep this locknut on my AG dynothree?

2) Do the roadster adjuster screw thingies have to sit inside the frame, or can one (or both) side outside? Regardless of the washer/loop portion being inside or outside the frame, the screws will still index with the chainstays themselves, but I have always put the adjuster loop/washer inside the frame.

3) On my AG dynothree hub, on the left/dynohub side, there is the hexagonal adjusting nut on the outside (I assume this is for adjusting the wheel bearings). Inside of this, there is a thin washer and what looks to be a round spacer right outside the hub itself. Can I remove either one of these latter two items?


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rear SA hubs: roadster vs. sports posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 8/12/2003 at 11:06:20 PM
I will have to look and get back with you tomorrow for the other questions.
The chain adjusters have to go on the inside.

    Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Tourist posted by Chris on 8/12/2003 at 11:25:59 PM
go to:
This is the phantom diagram for the A.G.
This web site is where it is all laid before us.
Just a moment.

   RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Tourist posted by Chris on 8/12/2003 at 11:30:55 PM
Now go to: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/'hadland/sa/safitadj.pdf.

read all that.

   RE:RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Tourist posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 8/12/2003 at 11:51:38 PM
Read the hub width part.

You can remove part # X-42. The spacing washer on the dynohub side. There is no matching one on the other side the side where the gear is.

part# GL-347 is a locking washer and I would leave that in place.
part # K-428 is a knotched cone adjuster and that definitly needs to be left alone.
You need the K-47 nut in place also.

Have you tried to spread the frame a bit to get this hub in place? Don't really have it spread very much, mind you but you should be able to move it a little.
You will need a frame spreading tool or a pal to hold it apart.

part #K-521 can go on the outside. This is the same as the serrated/grooved part I was mentioning earlier. The K-521 part is the cheaper predecessor to the more recent grooved washer.
These can go on the outside.
You might want to try putting the loop style chain adjusters on the outside however I am not comfortable with that route. As long as it aligns back into the rear frams as you said you should be ok. That might hang up with the serrated washer and be an issue.

I have left out the chain adjusters altogether before but it makes adjusting the chain tension more difficult. I was riding the thing without a problem but my mechanic pal asked:
"Where are the chain adjusters?"
Are you having to worry about mudguard stays in the picture or are they mounted on the backstay bridge nuts?

I'll actually take an AG hub to one of my bikes and get back with you tomorrow.
I have been exacxtly where you are before and I always found a way to skin the Sturmey- Archer cat.

   RE:RE:RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Tourist posted by Chris on 8/12/2003 at 11:57:38 PM
Removing the chain adjusters is not really a good idea and I don't think it will be necessary in solving this problem.

The axle in the sister hub, the F.G. is a different model axle and it will not fit into the A.G. even if it is longer.

Did they make more than one length axle size for the AG?
I don't think so.

You can ask Tony Hadland or P.M. Read( Pete Reid)
who is really kind and smart and helpful on this. Both of them are really, and they are experts (with parts too).

   RE:RE:RE:RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Tourist posted by David on 8/13/2003 at 6:26:22 AM

I've been having trouble accessing the Tony Hadland pages. I even tried converting the ' to a ', but to no avail.

On the plus side, I removed the round spacer from the dyno side of the hub, but left the thin washer and the hexagonal locknut. I do use this hexagonal locknut on the outside to make bearing adjustments, right?

I now managed to fit the hub in between the chainstays; hopefully, everything is kosher.

I will have to start another whole post on how to wire this thing once it is properly set-up. I have a headlamp, but no tailamp, so some of the standard Raleigh instructions are confusing to me.


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE: Sturmey- Archer hubs: Trying to fit an AG model into a tight fitting Raleigh Touris posted by David Poston on 8/13/2003 at 7:21:23 AM
Oh no! When I removed the round spacer? from the dyno side of the hub, the DYNOHUB armature? spins with the rest of the hub, instead of remaining stationary as it should. I tried to put back the spacer, but now the cone adjustment is not right. The cranks tend to turn as the rear wheel turns.

You'll have to try taking apart the locknuts and washers on the dyno side of your AG hub to see what I'm talking about. I'm worried now that everything has to stay as is for the thing to work.


ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1948 Humber info posted by: maureen on 8/12/2003 at 4:51:26 AM
ok guys,I have a little more info on my 1948 Humber.
It is a 26" ladies model. It has the original paint and striping in what I would call "average" condition. It is missing the front fender. It has cable brakes. It has a Brooks leather seat that I would bet is the original.(very worn and old looking) It's a 3 speed. It's got 26 x 1 3/8 tires, front and back. It has the Hockey stick chain guard. Don't get me wrong here, it certainly is not in beautiful shape, but is still pretty groovy lookin'.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1948 Humber info posted by Chris on 8/12/2003 at 6:46:11 PM
What color is the bike?
Does it have the wacky double bladed fork? The Humber Duplex fork?
This is worth maybe between $50- 175.00 or so.
Ride it and enjoy it!

If you tell us the color perhaps somebody here will offer to sell or gift you a front fender!

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1948 Humber info posted by maureen on 8/13/2003 at 6:45:46 PM
it does not have the duplex fork. It is black. Maybe I'll throw it on E-bay and see what happens!

WANTED:   1968 or 1969 Hercules/AMF 3spd. original chrome model posted by: Harris Spracher on 8/12/2003 at 4:04:05 AM
The old I had one then and let it get away.It may have been as early
as 1966/7?I know for sure it was a Hercules/AMF with twist grip shifter
and was chrome with red headtube and bands on seat tube.Thanks,Harris.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Anyone owns a SUN ??? posted by: Ric Sona on 8/11/2003 at 6:32:39 PM
Does anyone out there owns a SUN bicycle, made by SUN CYCLE and FITTINGS, BIRMINGHAM ENGLAND.I have not seen a post on the subject. THANKS.......Ric

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Anyone owns a SUN ??? posted by Chris on 8/11/2003 at 9:37:02 PM
I have never seen one except for in ads.
Hopefully one day!

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Anyone owns a SUN ??? posted by Ian on 8/12/2003 at 8:45:06 AM
I have a 1937 Sun Tandem and recently sold a "sports" model from about the same year. Although it looked like a lightweight with dropped bars etc it had a three speed hub and drum brakes front and rear. Sam sent me a copy of some info on the Sun Cycles and Fittings Company (they also made motorcycles) and if he does not reply to your post I will look it out and scan it to email to you. Regards, Ian.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Anyone owns a SUN ??? posted by Ric Sona on 8/12/2003 at 4:48:30 PM
Thanks Ian ..for the reply.Sam did direct me to the webpage regarding Sun....mostly on motorcycles.
Interesting to know you have a tandem..don't mind if I ask you about the headbadge.They seams to change it postwar and later when they were made by Carlton.Would you mind to tell me how much you sold the sports for?
You could email me at auyong1@singnet.com.sg

Thanks again....Ric

MISC:   RE: possible scam posted by: red on 8/11/2003 at 5:19:34 AM
After skimming through the messages I noticed that on 8/8/03 Charlie described what I was concerned about and thus writing to question the readers. Apparently I have experienced the same thing as Charlie. Sorry for reposting, but I was concerned that, due to the date, this might otherwise go unnoticed.

I have been receiving e-mails from one “williams lateef” who has been asking me (in broken English) to sell him SA hubs. He was vague at first as to what hubs (possibly because I don’t have any for sale) but then he decided that he wanted to buy my entire inventory. The description of the payment method seems a little sketchy. Has anyone else been approached by this guy? Here is a little excerpt from the e-mail:

“am intrested in purchasing your (Sturmey Archer hubs) i want u to tell me
the cost price it,and don't worry about the shipping agent i have a
shipping agent that will carter for the shippment i have a cleint in U.s
who is owing me sum money.And he has promise that he will be sending the
certisfied cashier check down on my behave,i want you Have it in mind that
the remaining balance of the excess fund will be wire via money gamm to
the shipping agent who is coming for the pick up.”

   RE:MISC:   RE: possible scam posted by Ward DavisDeer on 8/11/2003 at 12:12:54 PM
dEER mr. lateef: me collect bridges and swamp land in sony flada,and if u wood lick to bye sum,jus male me the $$ and I wheel send it nixt dey ayre.(member 2 spektify wwitch bridge u want ).Yoors trooli,Jimmy Hoffa.:)

   RE:MISC:   RE: possible scam posted by Bryan Masone on 8/11/2003 at 9:59:51 PM
Talk of this possible scam is troubling, mostly because I feel like the people on this website (and the other vintage bicycle sites I visit) are like my extended family. Seriously, I think we have a real community here and I feel like I personally know some of the frequent posters. In fact, as I read the various posts, I have voices and faces imagined in my head for the various people here like when I read a novel. So to hear that some goon might be trying to sucker us with information obtained here makes me sick. I know that I am inclined to give a fellow English bicycle enthusiast the benefit of the doubt, because in the grand scheme of things, there ain't many of us. I guess the best defense here is normal common-sense caution. If anyone we don't know wants to buy something, they should pay in advance before we send the goods. And no, I wouldn't accept a "wire money gram" or wire transfer or anything weird like that. I'm not a bank. They can send a postal money order and then I will send the parts. Its sad we have to worry about this, but, as a community I think we can work it out. Kudos to Red and Charlie for bringing this matter to all of our attention.

   RE:MISC: RE: possible scam posted by Chad Hahn on 8/14/2003 at 7:29:26 PM
This is a scam. The cashiers check is a forgery but a good one. Banks can only hold up money for so long, you get the money in your account, think the check was good and wire the balance to the buyer. Eventually the bad check comes bouncing back, the bank takes out the money it gave you and you are out your parts and the money you wired him. I have heard about this scam on camera bulletin boards


ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Motobecane Tri Star posted by: Demarest on 8/11/2003 at 4:01:06 AM
Here, mentioned prior one time, is a Motobecane Tri Star 3 Speed Shimano, Light Tubing, Motobecane USA Approved, http://hometown.aol.com/bikekarma/ one can see, the Motobecane head badge, a nice ride. Taiwanese made, pretty good. Have you ever seen any other Motobecane Three Speeds??

While I am at it, I love to ride this bike, in moods, shall we say, at times, it is the only one I do ride. It hasn't taken a beating to much on the paint, in fine condition when bought, somehow, I should avoid riding it in the snow, which by the way, it does excellent in so how does it figure? Got to keep the "Motobecane" simple decals in good shape.

I have been able to climb hills in this bike, very well. The one thing, though, is if there is a really steep grade, and I am estimating, I have a few very short jaunts, the steepest about 25% I guesstimate. Only on these very steep grades, do I ever have a crunching in the 1st speed. In fact, anything grade less than that 25%, I'd say 15% I am pretty confident in 2nd, and can probably even stand and do 3rd. Still, I wish I could make the steeper grade, if ever I am out that way. Any ideas? Does it crunch, cause of the chain and I really can't do anything about it. All the teeth on all the cogs seem okay to me.

Thanks for the time and help.

AGE / VALUE:   Chater Lea Crankset posted by: Smitty on 8/10/2003 at 10:22:12 PM
The chater Lea cranks look good. I found a bike with no markings. It has a Chater Lea crankset with 2 pins the third bolt is in the crank arm. I think they call this direct drive. Most of the ones I see on the internet are three pin. Which is the best of the two. It also has aluminium rims no markings and no eyelets (EA-1's). Rear hub is a SA AW marked 48 could these be Dunlop rims or something else. What's the value of this stuff. I posted this message on the lightweight page with not much response. I figured you guys would know.
Thanks Smitty

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Brands posted by: Catfood Rob on 8/10/2003 at 4:38:43 PM
We all know that by the late sixties Raleigh had bought up most of the smaller British cycle manufacturers, but any one know exactly how many? What were their names?
Heres my list : B.S.A. Carlton , Robin Hood, James, New Hudson, Rudge, Humber ,Hercules, Phillips, Sunbeam, Norman, Gazelle, what can you add guys?
Leave answers here for everyone to read, or mail me at
rob@catfoodcircus.comBut I think it would be nicer if you left a reply here...anyone?

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Brands posted by sam on 8/10/2003 at 6:32:19 PM
Sun and Dayton

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Raleigh Brands posted by P.C. Kohler on 8/10/2003 at 11:08:53 PM
Well, not so fast.... TI actually bought Raleigh in 1960 but turned over the cycle manufacture management to the good folks in Nottingham.

So, Raleigh never really "took over" in a corporate sense brands belonging to the British Cycle Corp. (TI's bike divsion) like Phillips, Hercules, Norman, Sun etc. They just got stuck trying to a) integrate their production in Nottingham and b) sort out and market all these marques when the cycle market was in dire straits. Remember TI was (and is) a huge steel conglomorate and bicycles were a tiny aspect of the operations. If anything, TI could be accused of a "hands off", "don't ask, don't tell" management of Raleigh.

Raleigh's actual cycle acquistions paled to those of BCC and were limited to Humber (1933), Rudge (1943), Triumph-Three Spires (1954) and BSA (1957). BSA had themselves acquired New Hudson and Sunbeam in 1943 so these too were part of the Raleigh "Empire" by 1958. I am not sure about Dunelt... I suspect they were absorbed by BCC by the late 1950s.

If not bought out by TI or Raleigh by the late 1950s, most cycle companies just folded. I don't really know what happened to Dayton, Comrade etc... there were so many of these good sized firms that just disappeared.

By 1962 the only remaining independent cycle manufacturers in England were, I think, Elswick-Hooper and Dawes. Moulton was a newcomer that year and TI Raleigh got them in the late 60s I recall.

The point here is clear: Raleigh was not unique in gobbling up independents and they were not the most voracious. And ironically, they were the ones actually "gobbled" in 1960 by TI.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh Brands posted by demarest on 8/11/2003 at 4:14:44 AM
Please pardon me, if this is mentioned somewhere, in the principal letter and the responses, is DUNELT mentioned? And isn't that one more, don't like the word, Gobbled, but that was picked up in time?

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Raleigh Brands posted by ron on 8/11/2003 at 1:36:13 PM
What about CCM, I know the co. os Canadian, the 60's bike are very nice, I don't know much about the brand though??????????

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Raleigh Brands posted by Edward in Vancouver on 8/11/2003 at 2:38:46 PM
I think Warren would probably have more knowledge on CCM, but I can assure you up until the late 70's it was a Canadian Company, sort of like a Canadian version of Schwinn. Like Schwinn, they died a bitter death, and were brought to life with Asian imports and marketing. On the other hand there was a Canadian Raleigh division which actually made bikes, in Quebec, I think, and still going.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1948 Humber Sport posted by: maureen on 8/10/2003 at 6:03:53 AM
I acquired a Humber in original condition. The rear hub tells me it is a '48. I would like to know how and where the best place to sell it is. If it's not worth much, I might just hang on to it! Any advice? I am new to this.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1948 Humber Sport posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 8/10/2003 at 6:45:13 PM
With my pipe in my mouth and looking at you with my glasses on and in my best Sigmund Freud immitation I ask:

" Tell me about your bicycle."
What size wheels? 26 or 28 inch?
cables or rod mechanical brakes?
enclosed chainguard or can you see the chain?
What color is this?
Gents or ladies frame?
Does it have the Duplex fork?
(This is two small tubes on each side that join together.)

It is hard to say what this may go for.
Anyplace between 75.00 and 500.00!
Is it missing any parts? Where did you find this?
Is it rusted anyplace?
My God, nobody painted it did they?
Nobody got funky with a paint brush and house paint I hope.
These came in black and that special, luscious blue they were known for and light blue/Perriwinkle blue for the lasses.(ladies)
Myself and a few other collector humber fanatics love these bikes.
The double fork is way cool.
The 28 inch model with the 28 inch wheel is seldom seen and worth more than you think.
I would be interested in buying this! Does not matter if it is 26 or 28 inch wheel model.
Send me a photo!
Put it on e- bay and probably 12 -14 folks will be bidding on it.
Up to you!
Or just keep it and be ever so Schway- Cool as the only hip- chick on your block to have one!
E- bay is strange.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1948 Humber Sport posted by Chris on 8/10/2003 at 6:52:09 PM
Does it have the original decals and pinstriping? (we call it box lining in old bicycle/ vintage motorcycle land.)
Does it have a leather seat?
I am very jealous of you for finding one of these!
If I saw you out on one of these bikes I would come up and ask you if it was for sale.
If so, I would hand you a roll of bills and as I took ahold of it I would be grinning.

I love Humber bikes! Can't get enough of them!
Just arrived back from vacation where I did not find anything of interest in anyplace I looked. No old, tasty bikes and I'm all bummed out.

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   1948 Humber Sport posted by Fred A on 8/11/2003 at 3:03:49 AM
I have a ladies Humber, rear Sturmey says that it's a '64 or '74 (anyone know when the last ones were made?). Bike has all of its original decals & pinstriping and Brooks saddle. Color is a coffee/copper brown. Overall, the bike is in gorgeous condition, looking as though it was hardly ridden. Everything is original. Saddlebag included.
Don't get upset... but a friend GAVE it to me. He knew someone who was going to throw it out but said he knew someone who collected bikes.

Once in a while you just get lucky!!

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   High Prices posted by: Tom on 8/9/2003 at 3:19:12 PM
I saw this Sturmey Archer hub on ebay and cannot get over how high the starting price is. Buy it now is more than most restored Raleigh bikes of that time. These hubs sell for half of his starting price. Where did he get his info on values of old hubs. This is a guy who is well known for high end restorations on bikes. I hope his work is not that much.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: High Prices posted by J M Vernooy on 8/9/2003 at 4:11:34 PM
The price is only confirmed if it sells at that price. I'm glad I only like the common Sturmey Archer AW hub that can often be had for around $15 - $20.

I'm worried about other auctions that have been offered, but so far they haven't sold at asking price.The Hercules courier at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2186725794&category=420 is out for the second try. The first try was http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2184663825&category=420.
If this is what the future holds, then I'm just about finished collecting.
I'm quite sure the SA ASC is more rare than the Hercules bicycles.In all fairness, seeing that Hercules courier makes me feel like I'm back in the early 1960's looking at it when it was only a few years old. But at the price of a DL-1 with a little wear? I would need a little more spare money for that.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   High Prices posted by Edward in Vancouver on 8/9/2003 at 4:21:06 PM
Over the past few years I've seen A.S.C. hubs go for as much as $700.00 on e-bay. These hubs are quite rare and are made for fixed gear riding--not for the masses. What is significant about this auction is that the hub is N.O.S. and has all the goodies, including the trigger and q/r cable linkage. The trigger for the A.S.C is unique, it will only work for that particular hub, and these triggers are near impossible to find.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: High Prices posted by P.C. Kohler on 8/9/2003 at 11:25:33 PM
OK, here's a real stupid question...

Why would anyone want a fixed gear bicycle for road use let alone one with three gears? This concept is so alien to me, I admit I don't even know how one would ride such a machine. A real headscratcher. I mean no freewheeling, no "click" of an SA hub. What's the advantage and the attraction with fixed gears?

By the way, would it be churlish to remark that most of the ASC hubs we see on eBay are indeed NOS. Maybe people in the 1940s-50s couldn't quite understand the concept either and never bought many of them!!

Me, I want an alloy shell FC hub dated 1951. I can get my head around that, real easy.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: High Prices posted by J M vernooy on 8/10/2003 at 12:02:11 AM
P. C. thanks for asking that question. It doesn't seem like a stupid question to me. I was just affraid to ask it.

I have read some explanations that explain that a fixed gear three speed is good for some riders but I still don't understand why. And I'm too set in my ways to be likely to try it. But that should be ok too as there are enough riders who like fixed gear three speed hubs to make them worth this price.

I can see how that ASC can be worth what is being asked. But many years of memories and the confidence instilled by the steady click in 2nd and 3rd gear while pedaling and the characteristic rapid steady click when freewheeling in any gear doesn't make me want to try anything new.

Those ASC hubs must be rare. I've been working with bicycles for more than 32 years and I haven't even seen a Sturmey Archer ASC hub yet and I don't even know what it sounds like. And that one on Ebay looks like it has the whole kit. But I'm not going to buy one just to get a better look at it.

Instead I'm going to look at Sheldon Brown's website to see what he says about them. And then Tony Hadland's website.


   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: High Prices posted by Warren on 8/10/2003 at 3:05:37 AM
You've just got to try it for awhile. It doesn't have to replace your other rides...it just compliments them.

You are unified with your fixed gear ride like no other bike. There is no style of riding that is more efficient...this is enough to make it addictive and desireable. This is why the world hour marks are always set in velodromes with fixed gear track bikes.

I would have no problem paying $500 for a new ASC hub. I think the top of the line Phil woods track hub is in the $300 range and it has only one gear ratio.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: High Prices posted by Edward in Vancouver on 8/10/2003 at 7:53:34 PM
Up until a few months ago, fixed gear was a stange concept to me as well. Vague bad memories of pre-kindergarten years with a cheap tri-cycle (well, it is a fixed gear, I guess)cemented my opinion on fixed gear. Until I met up with cycle courier on a fixie, who let me have a quick spin around the block. I was hooked. I made a Fixed gear out of a '60's Philips "10 speed" frame and a hodge-podge of parts. Like Warren says, You gotta try it.
Since Vancouver is hilly, and since I have only one gear, I'm starting to appreciate the concept of 3 fixed gears. I think there are some instructions on Mr. Hadland's site about converting an AW to 2 fixed gears, but it requires some serious machine-shop tools.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   High Prices posted by David on 8/11/2003 at 10:53:34 AM
Cycle Art is a business; they do it to feed themselves, unlike us hobbyists/collectors. Did you see the gorgeous Claud Butler NOS frame they just sold for $1850 that was part of the estate this hub came from? (Obviously the hub and frame were intended to go together.) And remember the PX10 that went to Japan for, what was it?, $8K? Look at Classic Rendezvous for examples of sky-high prices that have been paid...

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   High Prices posted by Bryan Masone on 8/11/2003 at 10:19:30 PM
Sheldon has a lot of good info on fixed gears machines. Other advantages of fixed gears include more stability in snow or slippery conditions, and certain conditioning advantages for racing cyclists training early in the season. Not a good choice if you could only have 1 bike, but I definitely want one!

AGE / VALUE:   Hercules posted by: Ron on 8/9/2003 at 10:47:58 AM
My dad has a Hercules that he bought at a garage sale for $2. It is nearly identical to the 1970 Hercules pictured for sale on this site. The hub says Hurcules instead of Sturmey-Archer. Did Hercules use the same numbering system for the year like SA? If so, there is a "58" on the hub. Dad didn't know what he had, until I showed him the hub markings. He had already overhauled the internals and got them working, without any manuals.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Hercules posted by J M Vernooy on 8/9/2003 at 2:15:04 PM
The Hercules hubs that I've seen are identical mechanically to the Sturmey Archer AW hubs. In 1958 Hercules was using Hercules hubs instead of Sturmey Archer hubs so it is likely that that bicycle is a 1958. I've never seen a Hercules hub with a date stamped on it but the 58 is very likely just that.

Hercules was also using the Herc-u-matic Gear Control shift lever which was similar to the Sturmey Archer trigger shift lever. It was larger and did not operate as smoothly and shifts were not as positive.

In 1958 Hercules was not yet under the complete control of Raleigh and that Hercules hub was probably one of the last ones produced.

A 1958 Hercules and a 1970 Hercules are significantly different but in small ways. I'll list just a few of the most obvious. The 1958 should have an oiling port on the bottom bracket shell to lube the crank axle bearings. The chainwheel should have either "H" or "Hercules" in the design between the center and the teeth and the 1970 will be plain. The mounting of the rear fender braces to the frame will be high on the 1958 and low on the 1970. And the front will be the opposite, low on the 1958 and high on the 1970.

Hercules bicycles were changed when Raleigh took over so they could use their parts and not Hercules or Phillips parts. Phillips brakes and pedals that were used in 1958 were replaced with Raleigh brakes and pedals. But you are correct that at first look a 1958 Hercules will appear to be very similar to a 1970 Hercules. It's when you look closer that you see the differences.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Hercules posted by Ron on 8/10/2003 at 6:37:17 AM
Thanks for the info. The bike was hanging in Dad's garage when I looked at it, so I couldn't see some of the details. The chainwheel doesn't have "Hercules" but there may be an "H". I didn't notice if there was a bottom bracket oiler. The bike, or at least the fenders, has been resprayed, but you can see the white stripe on the inside of the tail end of the rear fender.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   the sport was a sport , but i got a colt! posted by: opie on 8/8/2003 at 6:14:13 PM
The '77 Sport I went to look at was too big for me, not an 18" frame afterall, but he also had a '64 18" Colt. Wow! Fell in love with it on site. It's a little sad, with a lot of rust and Dynolights that had been working but didn't when the gentleman went to show them to me. Which leads to question #1:
Do plans for Dynohubs exist? The bulbs and immediate connections test good, but I don't want to go into the hub
without some advance info., so I don't accidentally ruin my new favorite toy! Question #2: I took a bit of a ride on it a few minutes ago and there's a funny feeling in the cranks or bottom bracket, like a wiggle or a hump, not like anything is loose, but more like something is bent. By any chance is this a normal feeling?? Or should I be looking for a bent crank or axel or something?
All advice gratefully appreciated!

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   the sport was a sport , but i got a colt! posted by Robert on 8/8/2003 at 9:05:41 PM
Go to this yahoo group and join the group.
Then look under the files section and there is a pretty good amount of info on servicing dyno hubs.


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   the sport was a sport , but i got a colt! posted by Stephen on 8/9/2003 at 6:54:18 PM

As you expected, the cranks and bottom bracket should turn smoothly, and should not have wiggles or humps.

If you don't think anything is loose (ordinarily, I'd check the cotter pins first), I'd look for bent cranks first. Bent cranks are not rare, they are easy to check without disassembling the bottom bracket, and it's not hard to find replacement cranks (easier than finding BB axles).

I would be surprised if the axle is bent - they are very strong and hard to bend without showing lots of other damage to the frame and cranks. You'll need to take the bottom bracket apart to check it.