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Archived: English Roadsters

AGE / VALUE:   Prices of Roadsters posted by: John on 3/27/2004 at 5:56:10 PM
I don't mean this to be negative so please don't take it that way. I have noticed that in general I agree with opinions, the positive ones at least, that have been expressed on this discussion area. That's why I joined. A lot of the time I don't even have to say anything here because in short order it has already been said and better by someone else than I would have.

From time to time I see mention of the high price of new bicycles that are still being made in England, or Holland, or other countries where workers cannot live on the equivalent of approximately $1000 per year. From what I have found out that is about the yeary income of a worker in the countries where most of today's bicycles are made. If someone has more up to date, (my data is a year or two old), information please correct me here. I do want to know and I am willing to be proved wrong to find out.

As much as most anyone else I like to find a nicely kept discarded English bicycle. Besides that, getting something that has been thrown away is usually a great deal, I have the feeling of saving a fine piece of machinery from the fate of being crushed and melted down to be made into, quite likely, a much inferior piece of machinery, if the scrap is ever used at all.

Yard sales are also exciting. Keeping a straight face as one bargains as low a price as possible with a seller who has visions of getting that 1950's English bicycle, that maybe has gone only ten miles so far in its lifetime, out of their way so they can have a clean attic or barn, or so they can fit a new car into their garage without danger of that old bicycle falling against the new car. They have no idea that anyone can want such an old, oldfashioned, rusty, dirty, bicycle, and they are concentrating on not having to pay someone to pick up what's left that won't sell. "Look, if you lower the price to $45 I'll take it" often will get you the bicycle even if others are there that want it. It won't be a DL-1 unless you are really lucky but it will be better than anything else in that price range if only it is made in England.

I can't afford one of the few new roadsters that are still made in England nor do I need one thanks to garage sale and ebay purchases. But if you can afford one, and need one, buy one. You are not in time to save the Raleigh, Sturmey Archer, nor Brooks factories in England, but by buying a bicycle manufactured in England you may be adding time to the employment of some very gifted and dedicated English craftmen. Just be sure to make it plain to anyone who may come to own that roadster after your time that they not discard it nor sell it carelessly even if it is dirty and a bit rusty. I have entertained the thought of selling some of the bicycles that I have purchased to get the money for a Pashley but so far I just don't have enough bicycles to sell.

If you are asking if I work for Pashley or any of the others, I don't. The nearest I come to that is that I have brought Biria bicycles to the bicycle shop where I am a buyer. But I do recognize superior workmanship and, in a time when it looks like superior workmanship is threatened, I want it to survive that time and beyond.


ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Newly built roadsters available in the U.S. posted by: David Poston on 3/27/2004 at 7:49:47 AM
For those of you who are interested in newly built classic roadsters with 26" or 28" wheels, you might consider Pashley Cycles of England, which now apparently has a US retailer:

North Road Bicycle Company
519 W. North St.
Raleigh, NC 27603

I think I came across their website at some point. They send me e-mail updates re. special offers on Pashley cycles from time to time. They are currently running a "special" on Pashleys (I can forward the LONG e-mail if anyone is interested). The prices are still pretty exorbitant, though. Like around $1000. However, these are supposedly "handbuilt" cycles from ENGLAND. Most models have drum brakes and alloy rims (a Dutch influence, perhaps?).


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Newly built roadsters available in the U.S. posted by BillG on 3/27/2004 at 2:52:32 PM
Speaking of Dutch influence and drum brakes, what is the story on this? A Raleigh Sports with an enclosed gearcase and 27" wheels with drum brakes?

eBay# 3668219127

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Newly built roadsters available in the U.S. posted by Mike on 3/27/2004 at 7:10:27 PM
That's VVVintage sale I think, I saw the same bike on the page here I thought. I think it's great, something a little different than the average sports you see. A bit steep on the price side for my blood though. I have to fix the ebay Hercules I got first anyway =P

AGE / VALUE:   I'm not finding them the old fashoned way anymore posted by: Chris on 3/26/2004 at 8:38:09 PM
I don't know about you guys and gals, I read that you folks find these still. You know, the old fashoned way, in the trash, in the garage or estate sale.

For me it was the way I found these, or else ask somebody who was out for a ride and I'd sometimes pry their butt off of it with the lure of green bills.
Or thru the shops.

Yes, I found a lot. But, For me, in my area. These have dried up. I do not find old bikes anymore.

There is e- bay and the internet and places like this one.
I'll keep looking, holding out hope to find a Raleigh on a corner of a garage with a paper tag on it that says, $25.00 but like I say, It has not been happening. To have to bow and stoop to the internet is not how I have been doing it.
Oh, how I miss the 1970- oh,.... 1989 stretch in there.
I had fun.

Things have changed I do not find anything anymore. Not this stuff.

To go back and meet myself as a 13 year old kid on his knees in the back of the shop with the bicycle shop's parts drawers open while the owner stands there and lets me buy whatever I wanted. Or to be given so much because it was " three speed junk" when they were clearing space for 10 speeds and mountain bikes. Wish I could pop back and tell that 13 year old skinny kid a few things.

I'd instruct this:

"In the future there will be a way of selling and buying over this new thing called the internet, it's the computer that will be in everybody's home and you buy all you can and save it all because in the future people will pay crazy prices for that junk that Larry is throwing out!"

It would be to: Buy more and keep them all tis time! cycle parts, whom not to get involved with, to watch your weight ectra.

Yup, I'd be the old Biff from the future like in the movie
"Back to the future 2"
"Let's just say were related and that being the case I have something to give to you!" and I'd give myself "the book" with all my notes on what to do.

Going back into the past with detailed knowledge of the future?

I just might take over!

   RE:AGE / VALUE: I'm not finding them the old fashoned way anymore posted by Chris on 3/26/2004 at 9:04:43 PM
What drove the desire to buy and collect so much of it? I love the look of the things, I believed this stuff held beauty that needed to be saved and preserved and I just loved the awesome boxes and loved to ride the bikes and tinker.
I had no feeling it would ever be worth more than what I was paying. No intuition, no wildest guess. I just loved this stuff and I cannot describe it.

I feel like an old Viking that you young people just let sit home and tell tales by the fire. Too old to go on the hunts anymore. It's not that realy, I just don't come back from the hunt carrying things anymore.

So I raise my glass and toast my pals here, may you in your hometown find these cool old bikes and save them and restore them and ride and sell and make a buck too! I'm here to offer my best advice !

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: I'm not finding them the old fashoned way anymore posted by Chris on 3/26/2004 at 9:08:44 PM
Last summer, I found a Phillips and had a blast getting into the fellow's inventory getting into the "secret stash" talking shop and getting to see and pick up some godies. It was fun like old times!

If you find old 3 speeds in your area, I am soo jealous of you!

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: I'm not finding them the old fashoned way anymore posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 3/26/2004 at 9:55:43 PM
CHRIS! Eloquent as always and assuredly, you are not alone... just peruse the various and assorted musings found within this forum.

And fer cryin' out LOUD man... DON'T GIVE UP HOPE! They are OUT there... just going to take a bit more to find them methinks.

Warmest regards,

Larry "Boneman" Bone

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   I'm not finding them the old fashoned way anymore posted by James on 3/27/2004 at 9:46:50 AM
try craiglist. I've found quite a few Raleigh Sports on there, bought a nice J.C. Higgins for $40. I have a theory, it urban areas the gentrifying retro/vintage loving populations have created a large vintage everything industry, you won't find a whole lot because those vintage store people get to it first, leave the city. The moment you leave Portland, you start seeing old bicycles at Goodwill and thrift stores. I found two early 70s Raleigh Roadbikes at a goodwill for $15 a piece, as well as a black Huffy 3 speed for $10, I didn't buy them because I couldn't fit them in my car and really don't need any more bikes.

FOR SALE:   2- raliegh bikes posted by: tony silva on 3/26/2004 at 5:18:17 PM
these bikes must not be worth much
got no response
bikes in fair condition
located in ca.

FOR SALE:   1970's ralieghs -2 posted by: tony silva on 3/25/2004 at 5:26:21 AM
guess these bikes are not worth much
I got no response
they are 3 speeds in fair condition
Located in ca.

AGE / VALUE:    posted by: Mark R. on 3/26/2004 at 1:54:49 PM
Dumb question: I want to make a "pseudo" club racer using a Motobecane reynolds frame, and a S/A three speed hub laced to rather nice Nisi 27 in. rims. I also have 700c Weinmann rims if there aren't any decent 27 in tyres available anymore.
The question I have is this: Has anyone else ever done this, does the bike work well, is a modern S/A three speed hub available with an alloy shell? I pretty much have everything need except mudguards. I'd sure be interested in your feedback on this.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Wayne on 3/26/2004 at 5:22:14 PM
I've recently finished a project like that and I'm quite pleased with the results. The only major difference is that I used an S-A Sprinter 7 speed hub with coaster brake.
The frame is a mid 1980's Raleigh lightweight with 27 inch alloy wheels and 27 x 1 3/8 tires.
In this part of Ontario it can be somewhat hilly so I opted for 7 speeds and because I will ride it even in a Canadian winter I have used a hub with a coaster brake.
I had to cold set the rear stays for the hub width, but other than that the project went very well.
I now have 200 KM on this bike and it is fast becoming my favourite.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by steve on 3/26/2004 at 11:04:14 PM
The club-bike lust hit me about three years ago, starting with the notion to come up with a better commuter bike using the Shimano or Sachs/SRAM 7-speed. It soon turned into a Sturmey-Archer project, and I've ended up with FOUR such bikes. Now the trouble is finding time to ride them all as much as I'd like!
#1 uses an S5/1 hub on a ca. 1973 Raleigh "Super Course" frame. With lights and fenders, it's the most utilitarian of the fleet.
#2 has an FW 4-speed on a ca. 1975 "Super Course" frame, and is probably my favorite. It's perhaps the closest to the classic ones. A Campy "Sport" steel cotterless crank has a TA chainring, and the ride is superior to #1. The frame has shorter chainstays and a longer top tube, and the change seems to have been for the better.
#3 is the best - a ca. '73 Raleigh "Gran Sport" (likely full 531) frame with an alloy S5/2 hub. It's the preferred daylight/good weather commuter. All three Raleighs have long plain rear dropouts, which is an advantage with Sturmey hubs.
#4 is perhaps the most enjoyable ride - although at the same time the most limited and self-indulgent. A Fuji S-12 frame (mostly cro-mo) from the '70s has an AM medium-range 3-speed hub and an SR Campy-copy track crank. Not very practical here in Seattle - I live up on top of a hill, so I have to either piggyback it on the car or walk the last half-mile home -- but, down on the level, the AM hub (about like a 14-18 freewheel) is pure ecstasy to ride. Ah, to be either 25 years younger or live in a flatter town. . .
All these bikes were put together by a process of scavenging and scrounging, both locally and on eBay. One typical problem was getting the chainline to come out right. If your Motobecane has a French-threaded bottom bracket, you can use two sets of movable cups and put the chainring wherever you want it.
If your frame was originally designed for 27" wheels, I'd suggest sticking with that size if you can get tires to your taste. In going to 700c wheels, I've had some problems with brake reach on the Raleigh frames.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Mark R. on 3/29/2004 at 2:48:28 PM
Well, I more or less threw everything together to give the idea a "try" and surprisingly the bike isn't bad just as is. It rides very well of course because of the fine Mtobecane frame. I think the gearing is just a tad high, and I may use a slightly smaller chainring to adjust. I think it will develope into a nice ride. I probably will use the 27 in. wheels if I can find good tires. I put a spring saddle on it, and I think I will switch to a Brooks professional since I'm not sure I like the ride with the saddle I have. I will up-date latter, and THANKS!

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   SA S5/2 Hub Lubrication posted by: Mark Brekke on 3/25/2004 at 4:51:49 PM
Hello All!

I acquired a NOS Sturmey Archer S5/2 hub with controls on eBay. I'm intending to build a wheel to convert my 5-spd derailleur Raleigh Sprite to a 5-spd internal. The hub is dated 90-2 and does appear to be new, but the internals sound rather dry to me. It does not have a lubrication port, however! The technical literature I've been able to find (Tony Hadland's site being the best I've found) shows a lube port on the S5/2. Did SA change this on late S5/2's, or have I got a bad one somehow? Thanks.

Mark Brekke

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   SA S5/2 Hub Lubrication posted by Robert on 3/26/2004 at 2:43:42 AM
Definately bad, probably dangerous. Ship it to me and I will dispose of it for you:) Not sure when they got rid of the port, but you can lube it thru the end of the axle after you remove one of the indicator chains. Few drops of oil, spin it some and it should quiet down.
You wanted it more than me , but I would like a 5 speed for my Dunelt.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   SA S5/2 Hub Lubrication posted by steve on 3/26/2004 at 4:03:45 PM
Just to make things more mysterious, I have a later S5/2 (no date, decal markings, alloy shell) that does have an oil port.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   SA S5/2 Hub Lubrication posted by Mark Brekke on 3/27/2004 at 5:28:47 AM
Thanks, Gentlemen! I hadn't thought of oiling it through the axle. Makes sense. Away we go!

MISC:   English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by: Joe on 3/25/2004 at 7:27:21 AM
I picked up a couple of old English framesets last weekend, both have oil ports in the bottom bracket, both have 26 tpi B.B. threading, both are missing their headbadges, both use 26" wheels, their forks look very similar to those on my '66 Robin Hood but are slightly beefier, and both have a small braze-on boss atached to the righ rear chainstay, just behind the sprocket. Both are spped up with house paint, but I took a blow gun and compesses air to one of them and the paint flakes off quite easily revealing a bright gold finish, with red pinstripes throughout. The crankset on the gold one looks heavier than those on a Raleigh, and has a common star type pattern, (no name or logo cutouts). Both are quite light compared to a Raleigh Sports frameset, and the headsets are neither BSA, British 26 tpi, or French threaded. I tried a Raleigh headset and it only threads on about 1/2 of a thread. Posibly an old Whitworth thread size?
My question is first, what is the boss on the right chainstay for? Posibly some sort of kickstand mount?

Second, how do I figure out how old these might be? I see no signs of any serial numbers yet, I have the gold one cleaned off about half way, there's nothing on the headtube, seattube, B.B., or rear stays.

There's no sign of any decals visable yet, but there was some fancy pistriping on the top tube and some lettering, but it's too far gone to guess what it may have read. There are several decals still burried with paint on the seattube, one set is probably an old bicycle registration decal, and the other two are at oposite ends, one at ht etop front, and the other is a narrow lable near the bottom. Both also have built in roller cable guides mounted integral with the seatlug.
They are both similar to the Rudge that was just on eBay and discussed last week here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2232279085&category=420
All is very similar to this bike but with a slightly flater fork crown, and different crankset. The pic in this ad of the crankset, shows the same type of boss on the chainstay visible behind the chainring.
I found them at a yard sale, in which I had asked if they had any old bikes, and the woman said no, but there's some old parts in the shed, "Your welcome to them if you want" she said.

   RE:MISC:   English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by Dick in FL on 3/25/2004 at 7:16:51 PM
The boss on the right chainstay was used to mount a full chaincase. Nice find! (I spent weeks improvising this functionality.) Evidently it was expedient to leave the boss on in the frame production line even though many models employed only a "hockey stick" or no chainguard at all.

If you ever get the opportunity to disassemble the BB, please give us a report on what extra design measures were used in these older models to seal in the lubricating oil. Attempting to employ oil lubrication in the later models creates a leaky mess.

   RE:MISC: English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by Warren on 3/26/2004 at 3:46:22 AM
I've got two bikes with those headsets...I too assumed they're whitworth. I misplaced one of the headsets in my basement for 2 years...I was starting to panic because they are very difficult to source. One is from a 53 Hercules club bike (also 26 tpi BB) and the other bike is pre-war Germany with a Thomson style BB and crank combo. Odd!

   RE:RE:MISC:   English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by Joe on 3/26/2004 at 6:29:59 AM
I have the bottom bracket out, and I really don't see anything special or different, it's a standard looking axle with "Williams" stamped in the center. The right crank is also stamped Williams. I have no way of knowing though if either the crankset or the bottom bracket is original or not? I would assume that some sort of thread sealer would help retain oil? I have cured several leaky AW hubs with a very light film of gas pipe sealer. It keeps the threads from leaking. I would use it very sparingly and don't use a sealer that causes threads to lock. Liquid teflon would probably do fine.

The paint is untouched in all areas where a chainguard would posibly attach, so it's my guess that it had no chainguard at all. The worst part is that someone has hacksawed off the pump pegs which were on th etop of the down tube. I suppose without a pump in place they got tired of torn pant legs? I cleaned the old paint off of the headtube this evening, and there are no headbadge holes, an no decal remaining. Which brands used a decal headbadge back then? This sort of rules out Raleigh, Rudge, Hercules, Phillips, Royce Union, and Sunbeam. At least those are the brands I have seen from a far back as the 50's.
The slope on the crown is not as steep as the Rudge on eBay, but is more than say a 60's Robin Hood, Phillips or Hercules.
The bearings were totally destroyed in the headset, but surprisingly, the cones and cups are fine. That says a lot for the hardness of the steel!

Warren, I have run acrossed that combo before, I have a 50's? Burger DNR which uses a non threaded three piece crank, with an odd threaded heaset. The entire bike is odd, the seat and headtube is laid back to a point where as when you sit on the bike, you are nearly over the rear axle. It's rear S/A hub says 10/59, but I can't say for sure if it's original or not. The rims are not marked, and it uses 36 spoke rims. I believe it was made in Holland, and was it's own brand. Very cool decals, and a strange bike overall, at least compared to the usuall British and Dutch/Raleigh bikes. It needs some work, but it will clean up nice when I finally get around to it.
One item that makes me think twice about the originality of the wheels is the fact that someone has apparently added a rear caliper? The front caliper is steel, and the rear is alloy and mounted on an adapter, as if it never had a rear caliper? There's too much flex in the adapter and the pads slide under the seat stays when the brakes are applied. I was wandering if it might have had just a coaster brake or a three speed with a coaster brake?

What brand is your German bike?


   RE:MISC:   English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by James on 3/26/2004 at 9:05:52 AM
I came across a german bike the other day, probably from the 50s, it had a cable operated plunger brake in front and coaster in the rear. I'm not sure how the cable operated plunger works, cables usually pull things not push them. strange

   RE:RE:MISC:   English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by Stacey on 3/26/2004 at 12:12:06 PM
James, if the inner wire is attached to a fixed location and the the casing is secured to a movable point then the cable can be used to push.

   RE:MISC:   English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by sam on 3/26/2004 at 4:32:50 PM
The BB uses grease-the oil ports were only to add a drop or two of oil to keep the old style grease from drying out.--sam

   RE:RE:MISC:   English frame / 50's - 60's? posted by Dick in FL on 3/26/2004 at 7:18:18 PM
Is that right? *Very* illuminating!!! Do you have a pointer/link to a relevant SA maintenance document somewhere on the web?

MISC:   Dynohub Power? posted by: GMS on 3/24/2004 at 11:25:32 PM
Does anybody know how much power a typical dynohub should put out(on volts) I know it depends on the Hub, how well it works and the general speed that its spinning, but surely somebody must have a ballpark figure!

   RE:MISC:   Dynohub Power? posted by Steve Ringlee on 3/25/2004 at 4:50:01 AM
Dynohubs put out 2 Watts at 6 volts. Modern bottle, hub, or bracket generators usually put out 3 Watts at 6 volts. You can now find 12 volt generators (very expensive.)

   RE:RE:MISC:   Dynohub Power? posted by Joe on 3/26/2004 at 6:36:18 AM
I have a DynoHub which is putting out over 12 volts even at a slower pace? It's dated 1958. I checked it after it blew out several 6 volt bulbs, I have been using motorcycle bulbs since. It looked all original and the center armature says Sturmey Archer? I did notice when I serviced the bearings, that the armature was painted orange instead of white like my other two. Did they make a 12 volt model, or could someone have modified the armature?

   RE:MISC:   Dynohub Power? posted by Tim on 3/26/2004 at 2:03:12 PM
Sturmey did make a 12 Volt Dynohub back in the early 1950's. I have one which still works perfectly.



   RE:RE:MISC:   Dynohub Power? posted by James on 3/28/2004 at 11:14:05 AM
Is the 12v dynohub the one with a black centre section? I'm getting a Rudge with such a dynohub, built late 40s early 50s, still has the "war grade" dunlops on it.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Durability of SC3 SA hubs...? posted by: Lenny on 3/24/2004 at 10:25:54 PM
Hi All,

Most of my bike restoration hobby is devoted to bike boom 10-speeds, but I'm currently fixing up a 1982 Schwinn Collegiate (tourist model) with a Sturmey Archer SC3 3-speed coaster brake hub. I'm getting ready to take the hub apart (have all the exploded views, plus Glenn's 1973 repair manual to guide me). Can anyone offer any additional pointers based on their experience of the SC3 hub? Thanks.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Raleigh/Hercules pedals posted by: Scott on 3/24/2004 at 4:39:41 PM
Hi all, I just listed a great pair of rubber block pedals with Raleigh logo on ebay. Perfect for Superbe, Sports or DL-1 I also have one Hercules pedal as well. Here's the item number: 3668493514

FOR SALE:   Parts for sale posted by: David Poston on 3/24/2004 at 3:34:09 PM
I just listed a bunch of parts for sale:





Mudguards, pedals, etc.


FOR SALE:   Parts for sale posted by: David Poston on 3/24/2004 at 3:34:09 PM
I just listed a bunch of parts for sale:


AGE / VALUE:   Hercules Info posted by: Mike on 3/24/2004 at 3:21:07 PM
Hi, anyone with a familiarity with Hercules 3 speeds might be able to help. I'm looking for information about Hercules bicycles in general, especially in the 60s and early 70s. I recently purchased an old Hercules and am not greatly familiar with the make. Item number 2234046355 on ebay for pics. Anyone with information about the age, parts availibility, and history of these bikes might be able to help. Several people have come forth with information, and I thank them for their help.

AGE / VALUE:   Schylling Bike Bell posted by: Larry "Boneman" Bone on 3/24/2004 at 1:40:40 AM
Was in New Hope, PA Sunday and came across a real nice bike bell. They sell them at the General store if anyone is in the area and is interested. A whopping $5!


Unfortunately, not yet available online.

I've been looking on Ebay for bells but I really like this one. Certainly loud enough to get the attention of pedestrians and the plethora of DEER in my area here.


Larry "Boneman" Bone