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Archived: English Roadsters

AGE / VALUE:   bicycle catalogs posted by: sam on 7/30/2004 at 3:58:14 AM

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Royce Union and Armstrong posted by: Frank Bennett on 7/29/2004 at 9:06:19 PM
Doe's anyone have information on: Royce Union (hub number 65 3) and Armstrong (hub number 53 10) bicycles.

Thanks Frank

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Made in England HOC posted by: Jorge on 7/29/2004 at 2:49:54 PM

I live in Israel and I started my old bicycle colection 2 years ago. I have 3 bicycles, "Made in England" labeled HOC. The serial numbers are 65986, 96101 and 111978 respectively. I wonder if you can help me find the year these bicycles were produced.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Made in England HOC posted by GMS on 7/30/2004 at 11:07:11 AM
This is a really common answer here...if they have a Strumey-Archer rear hub, the year should be stamped on it, or if its some other sort of date code, post it here and im sure somebody know what it means

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Made in England HOC posted by Un on 7/31/2004 at 9:49:07 AM
Most of ENGLAND made are use SA Hub but not at all there are many way to define the year of yr bicycle .... in Raleigh or humber u can find in this Oldroads but am not sure that other company has it like both bicycle but if you give more information about yr bicycle it can helpfull

AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by: humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 7/26/2004 at 1:23:35 PM
I wish somebody would mix up vintage bicycle paint and put it in cans and sell it on e- bay. That would be nice.
Some vintage bicycle web site offering it would be good.
Take the bike, re-finish it have it sprayed. decals, shop for the other bits.
Everybody marveling at how nice it turned out.
Nope it does not work this way! Sending out a bike to be re- done and chances are it'll come back all wrong after you waited and consented to being painfully overcharged.
Somebody remarked at recieving: "Back of the hand service."
That stuck in my brain how the poor fellow was treated and I cannot use that company for my own project. I don't want a list of folks to add to the stay away from s-list. No, I want it done correctly.
The Raleigh equipment with the fine folks who made the wonderful bikes, the equipment and paint code information is gone.
It did go somewhere and despite the secretive nature of how things work somebody must know how to paint a Humber and have the thing come out correctly.
Now I am looking for Humber Royal Blue enamel.
Enough for 2 bikes.
If you have had a cycle restored or if you can offer advice on how to find this please e- mail me.
The ladies bike I have looks black but the pictures I have on my computer show it to be dark blue. In the actual bike before me it is black-ish but looking it over better, it is a blue bike so now I have an actual sample to go on.

This is a weird hobby. Weird and mystical and aggrivating.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by Chris on 7/26/2004 at 2:54:38 PM
A kitchen is no easier either. I went after a particular shade of Butter-cream maple cabinets. Finally after finding what I wanted, he held up a drawer sample over expensive lunch and sold me that. Guess what? the sample was made in 2002. The company now has a different looking cabinet with the same name in 2004 and so... Yes! It is not anything like what I ordered.
Then it was delivered. Cannot get the company to make what I was offered and sold because they won't do that. They also have none of that in stock. The fool showed me an outdated sample. Now, the flooring had to be re selected and I hated the other choices, so I went with the original choice that does not match the cabinets. The decorator shook her head so we are making up for it with the paint, and window treatments. Then I had to step in and take charge with outside workers or else it would have gone all to heck. The guy should not be working in the field at all. I fired him and two others after him. "You are stupid, you don't listen. Get out"
I had to say it. It hurts because I want it to work, I liked these people, I wanted to beieve in it coming out great.
Not just the greed and overcharging and ineptitude that one expects but there is more, it deepens into more strange madness. Then I find "Kimberly the warrior decorator" and she took charge with her black whip.
To be quietly in the presence of somebody who knows what they are doing, to see the magic working properly is like a dream. "Hey, you know what you are doing, this looks awesome!" and he looks at me like: "So, this is how I do all my work."
The not listening, the opening up of the wall and trying to yank out plumbing until I grab him and scream "No!" was a nightmare.
I think I am properly reved up to try to restore my Humber bicycle now.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/26/2004 at 4:58:19 PM
Easy. Take a Humber chainguard or mudguard or the pieplate to a gearcase etc. to an auto paint shop. They can match to a readily available auto paint in a heartbeat.

Or "eyeball it". I wanted touch-up paint (Polychromatic Electric Blue) for my '51 Clubman. So I looked at cars... those VWs looked pretty close. Did a quick web search: "Blue Lagoon". Not a close match. An exact match. You can even get little pots of auto touch up paint via eBay through one dealer. You just specify the colour.

Me, I'm betting that the dark blue on a 1988 Jaguar is a close match to Humber Royal Blue.

Humber "Polychromatic Lilac" (that gorgeous shade used on their club bikes).. now that's a challenge!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by Chris on 7/26/2004 at 11:15:47 PM
House paint tale, we'll see what hapens with the car/bike paint when I do go to try that.
Well, the last time I was in the paint store I asked one store to match another companies paint. No dice. Nope, some subtle difference throws it off. Hmmm. The guy said with glee "Ah, but next month we get into stock this wonderful piece of scanning equipment" he called
"The eye"
Yes, the eye will be able to read and copy the paint exactly! The man rubbed his hands together and grinned at me!
So if I wanted to match Behr at the Sherman Williams store and not trudge across town back to the Behr dealer-store I can, in a month.
Does the auto paint guy have this "Eye"? I'll see.
Because I want it dead on matched up so well done, we all think it is original from the Raleigh factory.
"Dude ,that's original!" and they all look it over and believe that it is original. Yes! I want to fool them all. Then after I've had my fun with them I'll admit, yes, it's a restored bike. If I don't tell them they have to believe it is new, never used and just found in the attic of some old shop where it was sealed up in a wall for the last 70 years.
I don't want to take old faded parts to try to scan nor play about with car paint. As close as the Jag paint may be, I want original Raleigh paint. I want to research and find the recipe for the original paint. The guy who worked at the factory. I'm waiting for somebody to sell it to me in a bottle or a can. I was recently asked "Ya wanna sell the "Humber stuff?" I snapped at him: "No, because one day I'll find the original paint!" And then.....
Let somebody else enjoy the fruits of my searching for those frames and forks and all those bits? Never! Never! I escorted him back uop the stairs and out! Thanks for the reply, I may end up doing it that way. I'm still being stubborn and wanting more.Watching Indiana Jones pry up the stone slab and find the Ark of the covanant, makes me believe that's where my Humber paint is! Or in a Government wharehouse!
Somebody out there has it! When you tell folks about how cool and magical old bikes are and they look at you funny you just show them the bike with the polychromatic lilac paint and if they still don't understand this whole vintage bike deal, then they are hopeless! Wish me luck!


   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by Edward in Vancouver on 7/27/2004 at 3:42:43 AM
Yep. Can identify with your situation. In my case it was the TYPE of paint, not the colour. Managed to get a scrap of original paint for my Superbe from under the Raleigh Heron headbadge, oxidized, but not faded, and got it matched. Ah the classic "British racing green" description, must have been about 6 different B.R.greens, but I got a real good match, except, ah, get this, except only available in powder coat. The painter in question was very proffesional, does alot of bikes and wheelchairs, and did a good job on my frame, fenders, and chainguard. Key operative word here, chainguard. I had looked and exhausted every avenue to get a full chaincase, and besides, the bike originally came with a chainguard, so the hockey-stick guard was painted.

So now I have this wonderful B.r.green Superbe with all the decals, and Dyno battery tubes and Pletscher rack, and then if you please, as if by magic my un-obtainable full chaincase materialises. The basic case here, a pie plate there, an elbow here. All within 6 months. Lovingily I strip the paint off of the various pieces, do some brazing with solder here, tweak and fit there, shape and grind with the Dremel, and it looks great, just needs paint. Right? Powder coat needs to be baked, and at the prescribed temperature the solder used to join all those pieces would melt.
No way I'm gonna strip a freshly painted bike to match the chaincase, and can't match the chaincase with normal paint to match the bike. The ready to paint chaincase, the thing I was obssessed with getting, now sits on a shelf, mounted on a sawed-off rear triangle of an Eaton's Glider, just grinning at me... So Chris, now I'm in paint Perguatory with you. Pour me another beer, wouldja?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by sam on 7/27/2004 at 4:57:46 AM
The British Cycle Corporation was using Power Coating in 1958--says so right in the BCC book(but not on all bike parts)---I'll bet there is an old can of paint just setting on a self some where----maybe the new owner don't ever know it there ...sam

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by Chris on 7/27/2004 at 3:04:24 PM
Available in powder coat only? The original was enamel. Powder coat paint stinks. It's cheaper and prone to chipping and is not as nice as enamel.
Thanks for your replys

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    paint quest! posted by sam on 7/27/2004 at 3:15:56 PM
A few weeks ago I sat in my brother in laws paint & body shop.With nuttin to do I got the paint books and started searching for the perfict color for a 36 english tandem I want to restore.It was blue original,but blue just doesn't "look" old.The original catalog says black was standard.And British green I think would also be a good choise.I hate the though of changing an original color ,even one I don't care for. But turning through the paint book no blue looked just right.Then I saw another set of colors,these in boxes.So I opened them to see if I might find the perfict blue.These boxes were color varables.After the "eye" scans the paint and gets you in the door,then the paint man has to find the shade(up to 120 different shades in one paint code!)Black--6 different paints for chevy black--same paint code!Each brand of car with different codes!And each color offered a different code.I think some day the Tandem will be a nice dark black green.--I do recommend the book"Mr.Blandings Builds His Dream House" by Eric Hodgins----sam

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    paint quest! posted by P.C Kohler on 7/27/2004 at 4:40:56 PM
Little secret: I betcha anything you like that Raleigh and all other cycle companies didn't have little elves conjuring up bike paint colours. They used ready mixed auto enamel shades from the get-go. I used to restore old streetcars (trams) and guess what: all of the transit lines used (and still do): stock auto enamel. Honest.

So don't believe for a minute that Jaguar blue isn't Humber blue. Or Morris Oxford blue. And also consider that these colours changed with time too... look ar Raleigh's Bronze Green which morphed from a rich handsome shade in the 1960s to that icky limey mess by the late 1970s. Still called Bronze Green. That, by the way, is a close match to Ford Pinto paint (which is a depressing thought!).

If you can't find a colour in an auto paint shop to match what's on your bike, it's painted rust!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    paint quest! posted by sam on 7/27/2004 at 7:01:15 PM
But sometimes you run into a paint that is not being reproduced today.we had several 1957 color packs for maroon .The color was no problem to reproduce but the paint manufacturers were not using as fine a grid to screen the pigments---the answer is to paint the hold car --which is usualy not a problem with bicycles.I've never had trouble as P.C. said in finding a color.And I like my colors to look new--they should look new---then in 50 years they will weather to what the experts think they should look like---sam ps--1952 Claud Butler turquoise is paint code gm061

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by Tim on 7/27/2004 at 7:19:13 PM
Just a tip. I match paint colours by taking a sample to my friend who runs a colour printing works. He has a scanning machine that identfies the colour and gives the RAL number. I then quote that number to the paint factors and get my enamel mixed. The machine can scan down to 2mm small. Incidently, RAL is an international paint identification code used everywhere in the world. Who knows, they might even use it in America! Never had any problems since I started doing this.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by James on 7/28/2004 at 7:36:27 PM
Is Humber blue actually the same as a Jaguar colour? The paint codes for old Jags are still available, I know I got the codes for my 68 XJ6 from the friendly people in Coventry (the dealers are all assholes and won't even talk to you if you don't make 200k a year), it turned out to be less than useful as the car had been repainted a similar but incorrect colour, but if anyone has actually seen a blue Jagaur that looks like Humber blue and knows what model it was maybe the factory or Jaguar-Daimler historical society could help. Just don't bother talking to the people selling Jags in this country.
I wonder if there aren't any shops online selling paint for 1950s British cars, even if not correct that pea green used on the Morris Minor would look pretty good on that scratched metallic robin hood I have sitting around.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by James on 7/28/2004 at 7:46:26 PM
http://www.terrysjag.com/paint.html here are some paint codes now the hard part is figuring out which blue is the right one

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by James on 7/28/2004 at 7:54:07 PM
this site has some examples, I've never seen humber blue but there is a dark blue that was used from the 50s to the 70s http://www.classicjaguar.com/paintcodes.html

it looks very dark in the photo.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Humber blue paint quest posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/29/2004 at 3:16:50 AM
James and others: you are perhaps taking me too literally but yes.. if you have a British cycle, start with British cars first... it looks close to me just seeing one the other day, a mid 1980s example. Also check Morris Minor blue. Eyeballing is pretty accurate I have found.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Humber blue paint quest posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/30/2004 at 2:46:16 PM
Before we flog this issue to death, recall that towards the very end of its production, the Raleigh Sports came in a blue which I am quite positive is the same as Humber blue. Not to be mistaken with the polychromatic blue that was used on the LTD-3 in the 1970s either. Raleigh Industries very often interchanged colours between their various ranges. That amber colour (known variously as polychromatic amber or sunset yellow) was originally a Humber Clubman colour and found its way on everything from Hercules kiddie bikes to Lenton Grand Prix and all sorts.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Humber blue paint quest posted by Chris on 8/1/2004 at 5:50:43 AM
I want to find the exact shade of blue, paint an old Humber bicycle in it. With the right decals and lining applied and have folks think that the bicycle is original.

Bring back the oppulence, the glamour, mystique. When folks see it I want to hear them use the word: Lovely. Not garish, or modern looking. Properly done.
I want this mystery solved.
I would love a building with the used bikes comming in on one end and a conveyor belt with tools hanging up and folks working on a bike as it comes in. Stripping off parts, cleaning and re-working bearings and parts are removed and re-built and re- assembled. Proper grips and new seats are fitted, bearing cups and bottom bracket cups installed, then a new set of re- worked wheels and new tires are fitted and out the other end a new - re- built bike is being ridden and parked. The old refurbished classics are being put back into service into the hands of folks who will appreciate them.
Saved and back in use again and not in some rubbish heap.
Wouldn't that be great?

In this,I look around at what all is lost and what once was and I want to bring it back. Thanks for the discussion, I'm not going to give up on this quest. When I find it I will share my findings so other old tatty looking bicycles can be re- born properly and not look mutated and garish.
Take a look at the Humber double fork, that is a work of art worthy of restoration.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Humber blue paint quest posted by andy on 8/12/2004 at 2:15:08 PM
Can anyone tell me the approximate value of Men's 1970 Schwinn Speedster in nice shape and for a matching ladies 1970 Schwinn Breeze?

MISC:   Boston Bike swap posted by: Linda on 7/26/2004 at 1:57:11 PM
Sorry for short notice but it took a long time to find a place. There will be a swap on August 7th from 10-2 at the Hibernian Hall in Watertown MA. 151 Watertown Street. Contact me for more info. Be there or be square.
Do not miss the Larz Anderson Show the next day!!!


ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Need more height posted by: Tom on 7/26/2004 at 1:09:11 AM
I have a '69 Raleigh Sport with a 24" frame and I need more height to ride upright. I need to lean too far forward to reach the handlebars. I have the seat tube at maximum extension as with the handle bar stem.

I am looking for a fully sprung Brooks saddle, I expect this will give me an inch or so. Has anyone had experience with an adjustable stem as on MTB's. If I understand it, the Raleigh stem size is smaller. I suppose I could just have the stem turned.

24" is the largest frame Raleigh made isn't it? Does anyone have a suggestion? I am 6'2".

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Need more height posted by Dick in FL on 7/26/2004 at 2:52:35 AM
Hi Tom
I have this same problem with several of my bikes. There is a small amount of fore-and-aft adjustment available in the saddle rails. You can achieve a dramatic adjustment simply by reversing the seat post clamp in the saddle undercarriage. Typically they are installed with the pinch-bolt behind the seat post. Just re-install it ahead of the seat post. There is over an inch of adjustment available from this approach. The best solution, of course is to swap out the stem for a longer one.
Dick in FL

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Need more height posted by sam on 7/27/2004 at 5:02:20 AM
ya'll need to find an old raleigh exerice bike for the long stem and seat post.---sam

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Need more height posted by GMS on 7/27/2004 at 1:17:55 PM
I am 6'2 as well and have noticed that many of the older bikes are on the small side. Years ago people weren't generally growing as tall as we do today...so bike frames were built accordingly. Try putting in a longer seat post and maybe a different stem, other than, you could always chop up your bike and extend the toptube and downtube, but thats hardly worth the trouble.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Need more height posted by David on 8/2/2004 at 2:33:46 AM
The stem may be tougher, but www.bikepartsusa.com has longer seat posts.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Need more height posted by Vin - VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc. on 8/3/2004 at 12:13:50 PM
We sell a long (12 inches) seat post right here at OldRoads.

Part number ZURPOST for $9.95 on page: http://oldroads.com/fs_p_eng.html


MISC:   File Uploads posted by: VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc. at OldRoads.com on 7/25/2004 at 3:10:21 PM
We're working on adding "file upload" capabilities to OldRoads. Here's our first cut at it:


Vin - VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc.


MISC:    posted by: James on 7/24/2004 at 9:50:24 PM
Does anyone has the url of the company that sells reproductions of old Raleigh catalogues? Another piece of information that disappeared with Rollbrittania.

   RE:MISC:    posted by sam on 7/25/2004 at 12:17:30 AM
Until someone comes up with that adress--check out

   RE:MISC:    posted by Vanda on 7/25/2004 at 11:25:11 AM
I am not sure if they sell them from this site but you can view the contents. Try this address

AGE / VALUE:   Rudge Sports posted by: James on 7/24/2004 at 9:39:27 PM

This looks to me like a Raleigh built sports modified to look like a clubbike, or is it one of those low end clubbikes that was essentially a Sports with upsidedown handlebars and wingnuts like my Hercules Sports?

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Rudge Sports posted by Warren on 7/25/2004 at 1:52:21 PM
A model/date for the rear hub as well as the rim size would probably determine the truth.

The rims look like EA1's to me based on their width, so it is entirely possible it was a true club model.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rudge Sports posted by Edward in Vancouver on 7/25/2004 at 2:57:41 PM
Take a look at that rear hub, the indicator sticks out on the left side, so this is no ordinary AW, A four speed maybe, hub's too full of crud to tell. Description says that the gear trigger is missing The front and rear wing nuts are nice, not something that got slapped on by mistake. Nice bike, too bad it's so far away.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rudge Sports posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/25/2004 at 3:55:29 PM
This appears to be a 1950 Rudge-Whitworth no. 121 "Sports". Looks quite original to the specs, too. The hub is likely the S/A three-speed medium ratio AM that was an extra. The handlebars and all else are spot-on per specs. The mudguards are painted steel or should be. The downtube transfer is that introduced in 1950, the final year for this model.

Why worry it's in Australia? It's actually cheaper to ship a bike from Down Under to the USA than from the UK. Looks like a nice clean, original machine, the classic low-end club bike of the Raleigh-Rudge-Humber range.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rudge Sports posted by Chris on 7/26/2004 at 2:16:54 AM
On the Rudge, Those white mudguards are metal and not celluloid/plastic as some of you may think. The one photo shows the front mudguard and that nose piece on that tells that the whole thing is metal. They did not put the decorative bullet on the plastic Blumels/ Raleigh mudguards.

Looking at the Triumph bike this seller is offering, I love that rear rack! Original and rare rack. Whole bike is nice! Oh those handlebar grips, Ugh! Not original grips.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Rudge Sports posted by Edward in Vancouver on 7/27/2004 at 3:20:53 AM
One thing that has me confused on the bike though. Nice forks and the quill style pedals along with the narrower rims and un-identified S/A hub which is not an AW suggest the bike is a club style or, for that matter has a smidgin of racing in it's blood. But look at the photo of the BB shell and Rudge crank: Look past the yech-y cheap kickstand and focus on that blob on the right chainstay. Now is that a what I think it is, a braze-on drilled and tapped anchor for a full chaincase?

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   5 speed hub in Sports frame posted by: James on 7/23/2004 at 10:51:25 PM
I friend of mine wants me to "make" him a 23" Raleigh sports with a 5 speed hub and new wheels, does the current hub have the same dimensions as the AW? if not has anyone has a rear triangle widened to accept it? I've always been a bit scared of doing this. If anyone has a good 23" Sports they want to get rid of email me.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   5 speed hub in Sports frame posted by Tom on 7/26/2004 at 1:40:10 AM
I have had a 5 speed hub in my '69 24" Sport for several years now. I don't recall having to stretch the frame. I used another 3 speed shifter on the left for the high-low range shift on the transmission. I suppose any pre-index thumb shifter for a front derailer would do, there is only a high and low range.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   what model raleigh is this? posted by: leigh on 7/22/2004 at 10:38:29 PM
I am loking for help on identifying a raleigh model
I have no idea of the age as the only marking on the s/a hub is AW-9
It is black in colour and has white celluloid mudguards with a chrome tip on the front
it also came with s/a wingnut on both wheels and i believe these to be original to the bike
The crank set is a Williams with an oilport on the bottom bracket shell
The saddle is a lycett L20 model and it has a front dynohub
the wheels are 26/1-4 dunlop rims
Hope somebody can help identify this model as i got it for a good price and would like to restore it
BTW if it helps the brakes are cable operated


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   what model raleigh is this? posted by Kurt on 7/22/2004 at 11:12:36 PM
Sounds like you have a Raleigh Clubman. You will want to see the article below by P. C. Kohler:


Take care!


   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by leigh on 7/23/2004 at 12:35:52 PM
Hi Kurt
thankyou for the reply i checked out the link but my model is not a clubman as the rear mudguard stays come from the rear dropouts and not halfway up the seat stays
thankyou again for your reply


   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/23/2004 at 2:02:12 PM
Leigh, we're going to need more information than this to identify this machine! What is the frame material? Reynolds 531 or 2030 steel? What are the lugs like? Plain or cutaway or "fishtail"? Shape of forks and stays? Any markings or is this a repaint? Steel or alloy rims? What type of handlebars? Drop or North Road?? The AW-9 on the hub is the best clue you've got.... this means if original to the machine, you have a 1939 Raleigh. What's the frame size?? I suspect it's a 21" and possibly a Sports Light Roadster.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by leigh on 7/23/2004 at 7:40:55 PM
I have posted aphotograph to see if this helps with identification please be patient if it does not work as this is my first attempt





   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by leigh on 7/24/2004 at 11:26:18 AM
Hi P.C
In response to your request here is some more information
THe frame tubing is plain steel with what would appear'fish tail' lugs
the forks are round tubing with proper ends and mg eyes not pressed ends and the rear dropouts are what seem to be classed as the sport model also with mg eyes. there are not markings on the frame apart from the raleigh headbadge and i am positive the black finish is original
the rims are dunlop steel 26-1/14 and the bars are the 'north road' pattern with a fixed position stem
One more thing is the sides of the aw rear hub are finished in black not chrome like the later ones are
I hope this sheds some more light on the bike as i am really keen to find out what it is



   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/24/2004 at 12:53:52 PM
Sounds like you have a model 31X "Sports", 1939. 21" frame. See if there is any evidence of a seat tube transfer reading "Raleigh Sports Model". This machine came only in black. Mudguards were the original Raleigh "spearpoint" in white enamelled steel, not celluloid. Mudguard eyes are in the same location as roadsters.

Your Williams chainwheel is obviously a replacement; this had the standard non-detachable Herons pattern one. The handlebars, too, may be a replacement.. the original spec was for very shallow "dropped" bars, almost like a North Road reversed, and black celluloid covered.

The fact your S/A hub is black indicates this may be early war production... somewhere I read that there are no date codes for 1940-42 made S/A gears (I believe production ceased for the duration after that) and they just kept "9". Spec for 1939 shows a chrome-plated hub.

Cost: £5. 10 s. (a "bargain" back then!)

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by James on 7/24/2004 at 9:36:51 PM
Could you post the photo again or put it in the archies? I really would like to see it.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by Leigh on 7/27/2004 at 11:50:10 PM
Hi James
Posted a photo tonight to the archives says it will take a couple of days hope you like it


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: what model raleigh is this? posted by Vin - VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc. at OldRoads.com on 7/28/2004 at 11:49:25 AM
Hi Leigh,
Your pictures are not working because photos.freeserve.com requires you to include a password.

You did succesfully upload the picture to our Picture Database and we linked it in this morning:


ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by: Kurt on 7/22/2004 at 6:35:04 PM
Hello folks,

This post is mainly addressed to those who have purchased Raleigh decals from H Lloyds Cycles, specifially, decal A5, "RALEIGH down tube gold/black or silver/black blocks. As per Record Ace."

The site doesn't specify which era Record Ace these decals represent, the 1930 RRA version (similar to the late-60s decals used on the chainguard), or the 1970's RRA (used extensively on Raleigh Sports Light Roadsters).

I can't seme to get a definitive answer from Nick, and I don't want to spend the money to buy and ship the decals only to find out they aren't the right ones.

If anyone here has bought decal A5, I would be very grateful if they could tell me what variation Nick's A5 decal actually is.

Thank you.

Take care,


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/22/2004 at 8:53:43 PM
Yes.. I know the frustration! "Fancy curvy style with yellow thingys" just doesn't work as a decription as well as simple photo or scan!! Drives me nuts. But you can't argue with the man.

To my certain knowledge the RRA transfers (A5) that Nick sells are the classic 1930s era gold block ones. These were also the ones used post-war when Raleigh repainted RRA frames. They are NOT, repeat, NOT the glorious and wonderful 1948-1954 ornate ones nor are they the ones for the RRA Moderne c. 1957-58. These ornate ones came in several different contrasting colours depending on the machine's paint job.

My '48 RRA was completely restored and had duplicate transfers made but I am not sure by whom or how. I bought her in March. The other RRAs of the same era I've seen restored were by John Wild in Sidmouth (UK) and he made his own transfers as well.

So if you are trying to restore your '48-54 RRA to "as new" condition, I can't tell you where to find replacement transfers. If you have a '33-'39 RRA or want to have a post-war RRA in the classic "Reg Harris" carmine red factory repaint, you're in luck with Nick's.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Kurt on 7/22/2004 at 11:27:57 PM
Dear Peter,

Actually, I'm restoring a simple 1952 Raleigh Sports Light Roadster, with the conventional Sports Light Roadster scheme, as shown on this '76:


The downtube script is identical to the '73 RRA, that's where I got the idea that decal A5 might be it. Even more confusing is that both scripts are roughly the same size.

Oddly enough, I have been able to locate all the decals needed for my 1971 Sports (straight Sports), but the Sports Light Roadster decals appear to be non-existent.

Just to clear any confusion, this is my current list of decals for the '52 Sports L.R.:

X2: A5 RALEIGH down tube (Since removed from list!)
X1: A13 RALEIGH fork transfers (He calls them "Little Sir Walter" fork decals - I assume that the stylized "R" style decal on the forks is supposed to represent Sir Walter with his cape. If not, I'm dead wrong!).
X1: A18 RALEIGH tubing transfer. 1950's. Cream/white/black (Also a wild guess - the tubing decal is the only one that had rubbed off the bike when I found it)
X1 (?): A6 RALEIGH Record Ace seat tube, vertical. gold/black or silver/black (Another guess - I suppose it is the same as the seat tube decal on the '76 Sports above, with the supposed "Little Sir Walter" R logo? Confusing, no?!).
X1: A19 RALEIGH heron head/mudguard transfer (At least I'm positive on this one! It's for the rear fender.)

I tried myself to print the decals for it on my HP printer, using decal paper, but I found the ink to be too transparent for the dark green paint - the gold dissapeared completely when the decal was applied!

I suppose an ALPS-type micro-dry printer would solve this transparency problem by printing a layer of white under the gold. I did find an Alps MD-5000 at a junk store, was worth a try for $12. Turns out the print head tears up the ink cartreges.

Oh well!

Take care,


   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/23/2004 at 12:36:19 AM
I am really, really confused now! You mean you are restoring this '52 machine but you want to use '76 era transfers? That's o.k., but a '52 Raleigh would have a minimal number of transfers to begin with.

I don't have a '52 catalogue but my '51 shows NO seat tube decal except the small script "The All Steel Bicycle" within box lining. And "Raleigh Sports" in the vaguely '30s style block lettering of the era on the downtube. That's IT except the Heron's Crest on the rear mudguard. No markings on the forks. But lining on everything.

Now.. I know that Classic Transfers in the UK have reproduced "Rudge Sports" in the same style.. perchance they have Raleigh Sports too.

Raleighs of that era were perfection in British UNDERSTATEMENT, a world away from the garish tosh that passes for bicycles today.

But to my certain knowledge nothing ever put on an RRA of any vintage would suite a '52 Sports Light Roadster, assuming you going for the period "look".

P.C. Kohler


   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Kurt on 7/23/2004 at 2:10:18 PM
Dear Peter,

When I found the Sports Light Roadster in the trash, the original decals were still visible - all of them matched the '76 version.

I think I've determined the source of the confusion though. It's not a '51, or a '52. All this time, I had guided myself on it's serial number #199476 T, which, according to the chart at Retro Raleighs (1951: 151179 T 1952: 236530 T), put it around 1951. Then again, 199476 T could just as well be a '76, from those last two digits.

The scheme on the "supposed" 1976/52 matches the '76 Sports in the catalogue perfectly, right down to the chainguard, so I guess there is no doubt about it's 1970's vintage.

I had never seen a 1952 Sports Light Roadster in person, so I assumed that the scheme was still in existence back then. Another wrong assumption on my part!

Oh well, it's off to find someone with 1976 Raleigh decals, and possibly continue the attempt to decode Nick's hieroglyphics!

Take care,


P.S.: How I came up with '52 instead of '51 on the chart is still another mystery!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/23/2004 at 3:49:14 PM
Ah... so... now it's clear.

No offense intended to the kind soul(s) who posted the serial number chart here (and elsewhere) but it's a load of rubbish! Except for the period 1948-49, I've had nothing in my hands that matches this information. Nothing. We see this on eBay all the time where kind, thoughtful souls are selling what is obviously a 1970s Raleigh as a 1910 one or a 1930 one because of this "chart". Just forget it!! If you have a machine that looks like a 1976 one, chances are it's 1976. More to the point, what is the date code on the hub gear?? That's a far surer bet than any of these serial numbers.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by David Poston on 7/23/2004 at 5:54:33 PM
I happen to be the owner of a '52 Raleigh Sports light roadster, and I concur with Peter on this, of course. The only decals present are the downtube "Raleigh Sports" decal in gold/white capital blocks, "The All-Steel Bicycle" in script on the seat tube, and possibly the "20-30 tubing" transfer on the seat tube as well. Oh, and there are the Raleigh heron's decal on either side of the front forks, and on the rear mudguard, too. Here's some pics of transfers on my '55 Raleigh, but they're identical to the ones on my '52 Raleigh, which are badly worn.



   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Kurt on 7/24/2004 at 12:40:49 AM
Dear P.C. & David,

Ah, that tibit about the serial numbers clear things up!

The hub, however, is another story in itself. When I found my '76, it was missing both it's wheels. Purely by chance, I located a local fellow who had a seized Sturmey AW with the original Westrick rim in his backyard parts bin (fellow repaired bikes at his house). The hub is dated 52, and sure enough, I ended up putting it on the '76.

David, you've just added to the confusion! Your '52 Light Roadster has the same decal scheme as my gold 1971 Sports!

Or my SUPPOSED 1971 Sports, shall we say. At least that's what the hub is stamped with! I do have more confidence that THIS particular bike is riding on it's original Sturmey-Archer Endrick rims though (both are nice and warped!)...hopefully the hub wasn't replaced!

One other interesting thing to note: My gold Sports (the '71...?) has a Sturmey-Archer twist-grip shifter, and the sweped-foward chainguard - and matches the description of this 1972 (or is it?) Sports in the Picture Database perfectly, right down to the paint color:


(Of course, it doesn't have the headlight, which appears to be an addon. Neither does my Sports have the rack - which I have never seen painted body color on a Raleigh either. No sense in opening up another can of worms however!)

All the best,


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Kurt on 7/24/2004 at 12:43:00 AM
P.S.: Speaking of the original topic, I'm probably out of luck for the '76 Raleigh decals, right?

Take care,


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Matthew on 7/25/2004 at 9:13:49 PM
Try www.classictransfers.co.uk they are a workable alternative to Nick Lloyd, who can be rude and unforthcoming (though I am sure he can be a decent fellow too). I know of folks who have had perfect artwork refused by Nick but the folks at classics came up with brilliant results.


   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Kurt on 7/26/2004 at 7:19:27 PM
Dear Matthew,

I have contacted them - thank you very much!

P.S. Out of curiosity, I emailed the folks at http://www.cyclart.com/ about the same thing.

They told me they have transfers for all the 1970's Raleigh lightweights (RRA, Record, Grand Prix, etc), but they reqire the bike in person, due to licensing restrictions. It's a reasonable requirement, but just a whole heck inconvenient!

P.S.: They have a GOREGOUS N.O.S. Raleigh Record Ace frame for sale:

...as well as three Sturmey 3-speeds, one AW from '69, one AG (dynohub'ed AW) from '51, and a GOREGOUS NOS 1954 AB:


Take care...



   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Todd on 8/13/2004 at 3:43:16 AM
Hey All-
I'm new to the Raleigh phenomenon- but I've recently become hooked when I stumbled across this beauty- All indications are that its a 1965 Sports....
Like the image above (the '52 Raleigh) it has (or at one time HAD) the same down tube decals...I'm desperate to get ahold of a new set (See other image I'm including also...)
Nick at Lloyds (my only real lead on decals is OUT of them...anyone have any ideas as to where I may find them, or is there another year or model with a similar style? Like above, I must say its very difficult to commit to a few different decal purchases at Lloyds based on such a vague description....maybe other bikes used the same decals?
Any info would obviously be appreciated!


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   H Lloyds Cycles - Raleigh Decals posted by Todd on 8/13/2004 at 3:45:48 AM
Here's that other image for reference....


ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Nice Dog Bone Wrench posted by: Tom on 7/21/2004 at 11:03:16 PM
Whitworth Wrench Dog Bone; Item number: 3689096996


AGE / VALUE:   Sturney Archer oil Wowser Price posted by: P.C. Kohler on 7/21/2004 at 4:04:01 PM
My jaw made the most wonderful sound hitting the desktop when I saw this:

2 un-opened cans of Sturmey-Archer oil fetched $47.00 on eBay today.

For the sane among you are visiting the UK, just go to any Halfords (the big auto and cycle parts people) and buy their Halford Cycle Oil for about £1.80 a bottle; it's the same oil. Better still, buy a carton of the stuff and find some empty S/A bottles...

P.C. Kohler


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Sturney Archer oil Wowser Price posted by plum_village@hotmail.com on 7/22/2004 at 6:04:05 AM
certainly clue us in to the auction number on this.

MISC:   Changes to OldRoads Discussion Areas posted by: VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc. at OldRoads.com on 7/21/2004 at 2:44:11 PM
We're busy turning wrenches but - since we've gotten so many emails on this -we are trying to find time to add some new features on the English Roadster Discussion Area.

The first change is to implement inline images (via thumbnail).

We're also working on an FTP-like system for uploading non-picture files.

Vin - VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc.


   RE:MISC:   Changes to OldRoads Discussion Areas posted by vin on 7/21/2004 at 2:47:04 PM