ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Fork lock posted by: James on 3/25/2005 at 8:18:40 PM
Has anyone tried to have a key made for a bike with a fork lock that came without a key. Is it possible?
I just bought a 57 rudge with downtube mounted lock and no key. Is there any way for a lock smith to figure out what they key should be? just curious, I highly doubt I will do anything about it.


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Fork lock posted by mike on 3/25/2005 at 11:28:28 PM
i think there is a way for locksmiths to make a wax inpression of the lock and thenmake a key from that. have you tried picking it?

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Fork lock posted by Dick in FL on 3/26/2005 at 6:35:21 AM
Hi James
As it happens, I still have both of my original keys. One side has stamped "WILMOT UNION BREEDEN". The other side proclaims "made in England" and has stamped a number that begins with "NGN". Sure enough, this same number is stamped on the face of the lock cylinder. I know that a locksmith like Armstrong here in Orlando can come up with the key profile given the manufacturer and number.

You will probably discover that having the proper key will not quite deliver all of the satisfaction you might be anticipating. These days the Raleigh/Rudge/Humber fork lock is just a vanity or conceit to remind us of a more innocent time. (My Superbe gets secured with a heavy 5/8 inch shackle lock.)

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Fork lock posted by James on 3/26/2005 at 9:15:28 PM
I've been using a dutch bike with wheel lock, the wheel lock is extra security or extra frustration for any theif, something that could in theory be provided by a fork lock.

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Fork lock posted by humberchristopher28@hotmail.com on 3/28/2005 at 12:45:22 AM
Yes, any good locksmith can cut a key for your Raleigh Superbe. The locksmith has a book and it crosses over with a British car key in the locksmith's book. Even without the book info, the smith can cut your key. Bring him the entire bike too, you don't need to remove the fork.

The keys say: "Wilmont Union Breeden" on them. Don't ask me to explain what that means.
Keep us posted. We've covered this matter before and we have lock diagrams here in the Raleigh rudge Humber diagrams section under:
Good Luck!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Fork lock posted by Chris again on 3/28/2005 at 12:46:40 AM
The NGN series went from one thru 50

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Fork lock posted by Dick in FL on 3/30/2005 at 3:02:35 AM
Where did you uncover that factoid? I'm impressed!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: Fork lock posted by Chris on 3/30/2005 at 4:26:48 AM
My pal Dick in Florida told me! Thanks!

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Fork lock posted by Geoff Rogers on 3/30/2005 at 3:23:29 PM
Union Keys were used in just about every British car made (although Rolls Royce used Yale locks), right up through the 1970s and sometimes even later. I belive the company was formed by the union of the Wilmot company and the Breeden company, a long time ago. I usually refer to them as "Wilmot Breeden" keys, but that's just me.
I don't think the NGN series was ever used on cars, although I might be wrong. Most of the car ones were "F" or "M" series. In the old days the AA (Automobile Association) and the RAC (Royal Automobile Club), roadside repair services all, used to carry huge rings of Wilmot Breeden keys to help stranded motorists get into their locked cars. They would just try one after the other until they got in! One can find these rings of keys at autojumbles in England today, but a key from one will cost 3 or 4 pounds. I like to buy original English keys for my old English cars, plus a spare or two for each one. I have not yet figured out about keys for the forks on my two Superbes, so thanks for the tip on the key blank! I will look for NGN keys next time I am in the UK (this coming fall, I hope!) and if I score a bunch, I will let you all know here.
The locking forks were interesting. All Superbes had them, as well as some of the other premier Raleigh names (Rudge and Humber). At one time, Raleigh said that only the Superbe has the locking fork, although it could be ordered at other times on Sports models. I have a 1952 Sports with a locking fork, and it is not a Superbe. It's black for one thing, while all Superbes were green--I think!
Mid fifties in Northampton, Mass, and sunny today, so I will take my '61 Superbe out at lunch today, speaking of Superbes!

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Fork lock posted by Pete Groh on 3/25/2008 at 2:27:22 PM
On the keys, NGN series. I am located in the USA, and have some of these keys on hand, cut and stamped with the key code number. I also have a source for wilmot breeden keys in the UK. My source has a wall of keys, and can make inquiries on key not in my possession. I source my present keys from a shop in CA. The keys were sold for scrap metal thru a Radio show in the UK. I had to go thru buckets of keys to find keys used on British cars, MRN, FNR, FA, FP and FS seres (all single sided keys) Kind regards, Pete Groh (keyguy) Ellicott City MD USA

FOR SALE:    posted by: mike on 3/25/2005 at 6:30:12 PM
i have a sturmey archer 3 speed coaster brake hub in good condition, a strumey archer 3 speed trigger shift that is broken, and a HER-CU-MATIC 3 speed trigger shifter for sale.
25$ email me at sickcycles@optonline.net if you are interested.

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   The collection... posted by: Kurt K. on 3/25/2005 at 1:55:37 AM
Under construction, only a few thumbnails up.


Not sure how it views in Firefox, but I hope someone here will let me know.

Take care,


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: The collection... posted by WArren on 3/25/2005 at 4:38:45 AM
That link doesn't work in any browser...

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: The collection... posted by Kurt K. on 3/25/2005 at 5:15:24 PM
Rather odd - works fine here.

Anyone else experiencing the same problem?


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   The collection... posted by David on 3/25/2005 at 5:56:34 PM
Site works fine. A word to website builders... the possessive of "it" is "its" despite the many contrary examples we see ("Fine dining at it's best..."). Fixing that goes a long way toward giving a site some cred.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: The collection... posted by Warren on 3/26/2005 at 4:53:50 AM
Funny, tried it in Mozilla 1.6 and Explorer and neither worked last night...musta been my provider.

Mozilla and Firefox don't display properly though.

AGE / VALUE:   Roll Britannia site posted by: Chris on 3/24/2005 at 1:34:25 PM
What is the status of the Roll Britannia web site?
Are we going to see it dug up, infused with life and see it around town any time soon?

Is all the original material lost? Can we piece it back together somehow?

Contact me, this was too good to let go.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Roll Britannia site posted by P.C. Kohler on 3/24/2005 at 4:49:15 PM
Most of the material posted to "Roll Britannia" went with the site, alas.... most of what I posted, especially the manuals etc., I of course still have.

No plans to revive.. the "chat" feature works fine here I think. The issue is finding a free and easy to maintain site for all of the pix, catalogues and manuals. Free and easy with enough bandwith for all that stuff... ain't easy! MSN Groups are great but they don't really work well for fullsize scans of manuals etc.

In the meantime, I've posted pix of my collection here:


Yahoo is still, by the way, deleting groups willy-nilly with no warning, reason or recourse. "Roll Britannia" was just one of hundreds deleted.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Roll Britannia site posted by sam on 3/25/2005 at 1:06:57 AM
I'd like to add my 2 cents.
P.C. has a rare gift to be able to define and put into (written)words subject matter.As an example the name"Roll Britannia" instantly conveys the though of english bicycling.I hear of talk of a book or web site on the Golden Era of British cycling.If that interesting group does put something together I hope P.C. lends a hand.(maybe a page or two if a web site)
Also I think the 3or4 British cycling events should form a group called "Roll Britannia" to saction british cycling in the U.S.---sam

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Roll Britannia site posted by paul on 3/25/2005 at 1:16:01 AM
I truly miss Roll Britannia and as the owner/ user of five British bicycles- 63 Raleigh Sports, 65 Rudge sports, 71 Raleigh sports, 76 Bickerton 3 spd folder and 58 Lenton FM 4 speed plus Cycle Benelux 3 cluster........revival of this type of site would be a welcome addition to what we have here with Old Roads..........paul

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Roll Britannia site posted by Warren on 3/25/2005 at 4:42:18 AM
..I miss it too PC...a friendly group that was quickly turning into another good resource.

Not unlike oldroads. The pics, the database...I've got some data/scans I could now add

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Roll Britannia site posted by P.C. Kohler on 3/25/2005 at 2:58:02 PM
I might try a "test" revival of Roll Britannia as an MSN Group. It works well for pix, discussion. But as I said I am not sure how scans of manuals etc. work with this as they must be full size to be legible. Yahoo offered the option of FILES and PHOTOS and the former could be full size.

Now another practical consideration: MSN Groups have NO space limit imposed on the actual group. None! BUT.... big but... each member is allowed only 3 MB of storage space for use with all MSN Groups they belong to. So it means to be a success, lots of you have to contribute. MSN Groups are really an excellent alternate to Yahoo and the photo function is actually better I think. Just takes some getting used to.

So... as the weather is so lousy lately, let me have a crack at this over the weekend. I don't promise to be able to bring it all back in a snap of finger, but since it's so missed, we might as well try. Emphasis on the word WE!

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Roll Britannia site posted by Bryan on 3/30/2005 at 2:28:09 AM
I have never been shy when telling people how great Roll Britannia was.

But I do understand PC's concern for his personal time. What with my professional considerations, I could hardly devote half the time he must have taken to run the Roll Britannia site.

I do miss, however, the updates from our friends around the world on their special daily rides, and the bikes they ride. Roll Britannia had that chatty feeling only a tighknight community could provide.

Without slighting Old Roads in any way, I would welcome a resurrection of Roll Britannia in any form.

-Bryan in New England

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by: Pete on 3/23/2005 at 9:31:48 PM
Anyone know if the slotted or drilled cogs I see from time to time were actually made by Sturmey-Archer?
Made for the club bikes or choppers?
Maybe they are another brand that happens to fit?

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by sam on 3/24/2005 at 8:21:26 AM
The 1930 Sturmey/Archer booklet says you can install the hub without removing the sprocket---sam

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by Pete on 3/24/2005 at 1:09:19 PM
"The 1930 Sturmey/Archer booklet says you can install the hub without removing the sprocket."

Sam, I'm afraid I don't get that.
What I was referring to was drilled holes as found on many freewheel cogs.
The cogs I have for my S-A hubs are all solid.
My club bike replica would probably look good with a drilled cog as opposed to my Sports which should remain stock I think.
I'm assuming they're too hard to drill?

   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by Chris on 3/24/2005 at 1:29:03 PM
There were many other brands and manufactuers that made identical and interchangable fiting parts. Perry, Brampton, e.t.c.

If it fits, use it. Exactly what is totally perfect restoration wise- would have the small sa inside a circle on the part.
Nobody would notice this anyways.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by Jeff R on 3/24/2005 at 5:40:54 PM
I purchased an alloy FW hub and an alloy FM hub and they both came with slotted sprockets and wingnuts. I think the idea was to save weight.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by Jeff R on 3/24/2005 at 5:41:36 PM
I purchased an alloy FW hub and an alloy FM hub and they both came with slotted sprockets and wingnuts. I think the idea was to save weight.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by sam on 3/25/2005 at 1:09:32 AM
I think the slotted sprockets are from the torpedo hubs.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   slotted/drilled S-A cogs? posted by Jeff R on 3/25/2005 at 7:37:40 PM
I just checked some of my old Sturmey Archer literature and there are pictures of AC, FC and ASC hubs with slotted sprockets. None of my sprockets from the 50's or early 60's have the sturmey logo on them. I have some newer sprockets from the 70's that do.