AGE / VALUE:†††BSA Twenty posted by: Charl Cilliers on 9/12/2005 at 9:35:08 AM
Watch this space for a 1973 BSA Twenty folding bicycle that I got for free. It has a 3 speed sturmey archer hub and a grip-shift gear changer. Someone added a SA 3 speed shifter that I need to remove. Needless to say I get a lot of "looks" when cycling this one around Stellenbosch. Not a "manly" bike!


MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by: Joe M on 9/12/2005 at 12:50:49 AM
I was at a local flea market this morning, and found a complete ladies model Raleigh Sprite 5.
I've had Raleigh Sprites before, but never a 26" wheeled 5 speed internal hub bike before. It looks mostly all original, with the exception of the shifters, cables and grips. It has two triggers, one on each side. The right trigger works normally but the left side is a two speed trigger. The left side of the hub uses a belcrank that looks like one from a shimano hub, which I didn't think would even work on the SA hub? The cables and right shifter look brand new, not even dusty. I didn't even have to air up the tires to take it for a ride, the tires are dry rotted a bit, but still holding, the rest of the bike is pretty decent as well.
The odd part about it is it's size, the frame measures only 21" c-c at the seat post, but with the seat post about 3" out of the tube, I can just about straddle the seat, and my normal sized bike would have a 34" standover height. The headtube looks huge, way taller than my 24" framed Robin Hood. Was the geometry different all around for the ladies frames?
When I first saw it, I was thinking parts, but after taking it for a ride, I hate to part it out. The chrome is 90% with only a few small spots that will probably polish up, and the paint is fair to good, but the decals are faded badly. The seat is a super sized Brooks branded sprung mattress style saddle, (never saw one of these before either), it looks like a copy of an old schwinn cruiser seat in vinyl, I doubt if this is original, but it sure is comfy. Riding this bike, it feels much shorter than my mens Sports model or my Robin Hood? The headtube is as long as my 25.5" framed Super Course. It has real good ground clearance as well, you can pedal through a hard turn, and never worry about hitting the crank in the dirt.
It even came with a nice matching Prestube Minor rear carrier and add on Rampar generator lights.
The fenders are in decent condition with a few bumps here and there, but would clean up nice with some work.
I cleaned off the grease from the hub, and it's marked 67 and either a 1 or a 10? A very clean '67 S5 hub. The B.B. has some numbers stamped on the bottom, but it looks like someone stanped in a date, 08/11/67. I see no signs of a serial number, not on the seat or head tubes either? The headbadge is different from the other Raleighs too, it's the usuall brass colored heron, but not in 3-D, just flat with red and yellow screened on colors, it says "The Raleigh", Nottingham, England. The cranks are full length, and it has the usual Heron pattern chainring, and looks to be a full sized front chainwheel. The decals are quite plain, a Heron on the seat post with two gold rings above and below, a plain "Raleigh Made in England" script on the chainguard and upper tube, and a '5' on the middle of what looks like wings on the bottom downtube. The fender look like those on my Sports. It's the common Raleigh green in color and even still has the original John Bull brake pads. The hand grips though are from a 50's Schwinn.

Has anyone ever seen two triggers used for shifters on an S-5? Did they make a left side belcrank that could pass for a Shimano piece? (The belcrank even has the red 'N' in the window like a Shimano). I was going to eBay the S-5, and part this out, but I like the gear ratio of this combo and may just build it up with a men's frame, but I like the height of this thing, I wish I could find a men's frame with this stance. (The bottom bracket is almost 3" higher than my '65 Raleigh Sports). What would this have had for shifters originally? I've seen the twin stick style, but never one done like this, I first thought that the someone simply used a three speed trigger, but it's only got two detents. The right shifter is a modern platic version, but the left one is all chrome, with no markings.
I'm not big on the idea of riding a ladies frame, but it ride so nice, and if I use one of the spare Raleigh Sports frames, which are 23", I loose the height and clearance, but could use some length added, but a loger stem would cure that, (knees close to bars). Any suggestions?


   RE:RE:MISC: Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Mark Stonich on 9/13/2005 at 1:56:38 PM
Correct Shifters:
I just happen to have a very original '67 Sprite 5 that I'm trying to sell or a riend, so I just went out and shot the shifters. However, two triggers work so much better I wouldn't bother unless the rest of the bike is super clean and original.

BTW does yours have this "way too cool" rack"

Tall Woman's Frames:
Here's mine

   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Matthew on 9/13/2005 at 6:55:54 PM
I'm glad to see a photo of Mark's sport, basic geometry of which is very similar to the Triumph Traffic master my Mum had, which came to me before I sold it to my friends wife. The frame was very whippy at speed. the headstock and seat post would gyrate laterally at high speed but it was a forgiving and compfortable ride. I agree with the anti theft theory but that also goes for supply and demand. Ladies sports are twice as common and half the price of equivalent gents models.

I prefer the Raliegh Wisp type of ladies sports with twin narrow top down tubes and drop handlebars. they are stiffer frames and may be longer wheelbase, rather graceful and cheaper than chips too!

MATTHEW - not so sporty.

   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Joe M on 9/13/2005 at 7:02:09 PM
Mark, the shifters in your pic are the ones I have seen before, the rear rack is different than mine, mine is the common Prestube Minor rack, made of stamped sheetmetal. Your bike looks very similar to mine, looks to be the same color, but with different decals. Mine has blackwall tires, (old Carlysle's), and that huge seat.
I included a pic:
( )

If this was a large frame men's model, I would probably go for all original, but as a ladies frame, I am not too concerned with it. Right now, as you can see in the pic, its a bit dirty, the rear hub is covered with grease, and the rest is covered with heavy dust. I blew off the majority of the dust to take the pic, but it will need a real good cleaning. Your's looks quite a bit cleaner than mine.
Your rear basket reminds me of my old Dunelt that I had deliverd newspapers with. Seeing that basket mounted on yours, really shows the difference in the frame geometry. I had Wald's largest rear basket on the back of my Dunelt, and it just cleared my heels in the front, and was even with the rear fender at the back. I had even taken a flat piece of aluminum and tied both my baskets together at the bottom, as well as attaching the homemade brace to the fender where the reflector was since I had put two lights on the rear brace, one at each end, in place of a rear reflector, it looks sort of like a bumbper, but was there to keep the baskets from swaying outward. I had also added another down support to the center to help hold the weight.
The rear support on my baskets was nearly vertical, and the front attached to the seat clamp bolt with a bracket.

I also notice that your frame has pump pegs, and the lack of the Heron pattern front sprocket? Mine has no pump pegs. One thing I noticed about mine, it that I think the rear rack is mounted too low, the chrome spring clamp hits the top of the fender and as made a slight dent in the top of the fender.


   RE:RE:RE:MISC: Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Kurt K. on 9/13/2005 at 7:30:01 PM
Looks like I came a bit late to put a few my two cents in, but I'll see if I can keep up:

Joe M: Sounds like someone made a cheap repair with a common 3 speed trigger the wrong way 'round on the left side of the bars to operate the left side bellcrank.

From your description, it does not sound like any Brooks vinyl saddle I've seen before. I'm only familiar with the S-30 (if I'm not mistaken) type that found itself onto many Raleigh Twentys and late '60s Robin Hoods (and also onto spartan Sports S22/S22Ls), and the late '70s pleated type - dual rails, no springs.

Your description of the badge sounds, if I'm not mistaken, like the '67 Raleigh Anniversary badges used on the Carlton models? Is the badge of an oval shape, or the conventional type?

From Mark's comments, I highly suspect that your bellcrank is a Shimano piece tapped for the SA axle. Since the Sturmey piece is such a rare little item, that's exactly what I'd expect a shop to do, if faced with the challenge of replacing the bellcrank.

Yes - one of the six gears is a duplicate - whether you are in high or low, second position on the right is always direct-drive. The proper shifting pattern is:

1st: LH.: Slack, RH.: First gear as like the AW, full tension
2nd: LH.: Tensioned, RH.: First gear as AW, full tension
3rd: LH.: Tensioned, RH.: Second gear as AW, central position
4th: LH.: Tensioned, RH.: Third gear as AW, slack
5th: LH.: Slack, RH.: Third gear as AW, slack

I'll put together a simple diagram on The Headbadge website as soon as I've re-done the HTML.

The SA S5-equipped Sprite frames are identical to the Sports, save for the transfers. The derailer-equipped 5 speed Sprites introduced in '69 have a wider rear dropout spacing for obvious reasons.

In the early '70s, the 27"-wheeled, 5 & 10 speed derailer Sprites replaced the S5 models. These frames are completely different then the Sports.

An earlier 5 speed internal Sturmey-Archer hub that isn't an S5? That's new to me too - what's the model type on the shell?

Mark: I have never seen those stem shifters before, although on close examination, the Sprite in the '67 catelouge seems to feature them.

Now, up to now, I believed that the standard Sprite shifters for '67 were the plastic/metal top-tube mounted type, as shown on Martin Hanczyc's '67 Sprite:

I've also seen these shifters myself on a 21" bronze green '67 Sprite at last year's Coral Ridge Mall vintage cycle show. Perhaps you can shed a bit of light as to which came first? P.S.: Shell was dated 6-67.

Say, Mark - do you have any spare S5 internal parts? I harvested an NOS S5 axle, planet cage & dog ring from the drawers of old parts from the LBS, but have yet to find the planet pinions, pinion pins, or the two left-hand sun pinions for it. You wouldn't happen to have some spares that you'd part with, eh?

Take care,


   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC: Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Kurt K. on 9/13/2005 at 7:33:11 PM
P.S.: Is that a Canadian Sprite that you show in the rear rack photo? The chainguard has that particular "Raleigh" transfer seen on so many of the Canadian models.

P.S. #2: Just for the record, here's the standard SA 5 speed top-tube trigger as used after 1969:

I can get these NOS for $35 + shipping BTW, if anyone's interested.


   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Joe M on 9/13/2005 at 11:36:09 PM
I concluded that seat is recovered with some sort of slip on cover, but has been glued in place with spray adhesive, the seat beneath is leather, sort of like a super wide B72. The undercarrage of the seat is cheap looking though, all stamped steel with two chrome rear springs. I doubt if it's original, but there is a small rectanglular tag on the cover that says Brooks, but the tag is no more than a piece of cloth. The cover may say Brooks, but looks like a cheap import. The seat is pretty comfortable, but not like the original Brooks saddles.
Where would the original shifter have mounted? On top of the upper tube? I don't see any paint marks from where one may have been, nothing on the stem either. I agree that both of the triggers are wrong, but they do work as is, so I'll probably leave them for now.
Somewhere I have another SA 5 speed hub, I took it from an early 60's Hercules that I parted out. I was told that they were not as reliable as the later one's so I never really bothered with it, I'll have to do some digging to find it, I can't remember the date stamping, but it seems to me it was earlier?

From Marks pics, I have concluded that my belcrank is a retapped Shimano, I have an original SA one here, I may swap it out. I had bought a bucket of old SA hubs a few years ago for parts, I think there was one of the cast ones in that pile. I may also have a set of those black plastic and chrome levers, I had thought back then they came from a muscle bike or something.

The headbadge is not the aniversary addition, I have one of those on a SuperCourse. This one is the same shape and style as the common Raleigh Heron, but with less detail. The colors are different as well, unless it's simple one that I have never come acrossed before? All of the other badges I have, are engraved and have more of a 3d look, this one is almost all just painted, no recessed or engraved letters, just paint, and different colors as well.
I can email you a pic if you want, the free website isn't cooperating right now for some reason.


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC: Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Mark Stonich on 9/14/2005 at 1:05:21 AM
Kurt, the gear sequence you described was for an S5/1 or /2

For an S5 it goes.
1st: LH.: Tensioned, RH.: First gear as like the AW, full tension
2nd: LH.: Slack, RH.: First gear as AW, full tension
3rd: LH.: Slack, RH.: Second gear as AW, central position
4th: LH.: Slack, RH.: Third gear as AW, slack
5th: LH.: Tensioned, RH.: Third gear as AW, slack

This is why I prefer an S5 with a spring on the bellcrank to an S5/1 or /2. 95% of the time, the left cable is slack, and the sun gear springs are uncompressesd.

As for spare parts, I don't know. I've a box of used S5s and FWs. I haven't had time to pull them apart yet to see if they're all good. If they aren't, then I'll have some parts. In the past year I've also aquired 4 NOS S5s and 2 alloy shelled S5/2s. The S5s were all 28h but I gave some to friends to swap the guts into their AW wheels.

I prefer two triggers or a trigger and a thumb shifter to any of the Sturmey 5 speed shifter setups.

I don't know if the Sprite in the photos is Canadian, but I love the rack.

News flash, I just got a phone call from someone agreeing to buy it for $140. I think $100 would have been about right.

Mine sit too far back. I welded extensions on my basket supports to get them to sit level. I should have modified the way they mounted to the seat stays to move them forward. I'll fix when I get time. Carrying a couple of cases of beer, they have more to say about where I'm going than the handlebars.

   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Joe M on 9/14/2005 at 2:45:50 AM
I guess I got a deal on mine, $140 for the Ladies Sprint?
I only gave a $10 bill for mine, I guess I am too used to getting them at yard sales. Maybe I'll stop looking at the ladies versions as parts donors. I have passed up quite few over the last few years, parted out a few too, a couple nicer than this one. My biggest problem is space, if I picked up every $10 or $20 bike that I saw, I would probably need a warehouse by now. I have about 10 riders right now and about 20 in process awaiting my time or small parts. I only have a small shed about the size of a one car garage, and about half of my basement. I have some stored at a friends place, but those are mostly parts. I spend a lot of time fishing, and have lots of gear for that as well, it's always a battle between the bike parts and fishing tackle.
I have to move one out of the way to work on another. I had a spare room in the house, but it's turned into a work room in the summer, an airconditioned work room, sure beats a hot garage when building wheels or assembling a new project. Half of my garage looks like a bike shop, the other like a tackle shop. But they all seem to merge together lately. Too many toys, not enough space.

   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Kurt K. on 9/12/2005 at 2:34:55 PM
Here's a "quick list" of replies to your questions:

Early S5 hubs use a Sturmey-Archer bellcrank - later ones used an indicator. You may want to check that someone didn't shove a Shimano bellcrank on the SA hub as a jerry-rigged replacement.

Interesting how you mention the dual trigger shifters - you wouldn't happen to have a photo, would you? These usually came with rather fragile dual shifters clamped to the top tube - a beefer all-metal variant replaced these in 1969.

Yes, it's no secret, the ladies' variant of the Sprite, Superbe and Sports feature a slighly different frame geometry then the gent's frame - starting with a shorter center-to-center span, as you noted.

It was common for the women's models to have rather long headtubes in comparison with the seattube. I suppose this has something to do with the shorter c-c span as well.

Brooks made those mattress things back then - depending on the type, it may be original.

Take a closer look at your specific headbadge - it's aluminum, not brass.

Sounds like someone replaced the original top tube shifters and put that left hand trigger in it's place. Got a picture?


   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Joe M on 9/12/2005 at 8:05:19 PM
Both shifters look to be just standard triggers, the one on the right is the newer style with the black plastic cover, the one on the left looks like the cover has been knocked off. Both cables are brand new universal types with black casings.
The seat looks to be newer, it doesn't have stitched seams, but looks more molded, and is about 3" wider than the standard Brooks mattress saddle. It has a "Brooks" label stiched on to the under lip tucked under the springs, sort of like a shirt tag, but in vinyl. It almost looks like an excorsisor seat., but has the under carrage like an old Troxel seat. The tag is branded 'Brooks' but does not say Made in England anywhere. I thought it was a slip on cover on an old Troxel when I first saw it.
After a closer look at the headbadge, it may be aluminum, but is brass colored, the bigest difference is the addition of the white and yellow background colors. The badge itself is flatter with less detail than the others I have here, with only the head of the Heron being raised. The area that says Nottingham, England, is in white, in place of black, and the letters are painted black, not engraved or raised. The main 'R' area of the badge, which is usually all red in a recessed area, is red with white shading. The size and rivit position is the same as the other badges. At first glance, it resembled the badges from the Holland build Raleighs. I'll try to get some pics posted later.
I unscrewed the left shifter belcrank, and it looks like it fits the threads ok, but does look to be the same as a Shimano. Someone may have retapped the belcrank housing? I didn't realize that the Shimano part would work on an SA hub? The belcrank I am used to seeing is more of an open mechanism, with no indicator window. This is the first bike I have ridden with an S-5 hub, I like the gear ratios, but first is way low.
What is the proper shifting sequence of these hubs? If the left lever is a high and low, and the right side gives 3 ranges, why is it not a 6 speed? (3x2?). Is one of the ratios a duplicate?
I measured the wheelbase on this compared to my Raleigh Sports, and it's only 1 7/8" shorter, but with the combination of the taller headtube, and overall height, I guess it really give the impression of being much shorter than it is. I do like the way this thing handles and tracks, it's one of those bikes that rides like it's on rails, very stable, even at low speed. Would the mens version of this be the same frame as a Sports, or was the Sprite it's totally it's own design? I have a pretty clean Sports that is missing a few pieces, and was considering using this to make that one complete. I also have a later Sprite men's frame but I believe that is a 27" wheel frame. I just hate to part out a ridable bike, but if this is missing the corrct shifters, belcrank, and seat, and it being a woman's model, I may just use the parts to build up anotehr nice Sports. I like my bikes to be as original as I can get them, with no modern or Asian pieces added. I have anther 5 speed SA hub here, but it's earlier, before the S-5, I don't know if that belcrank would work or not. I don't have the original shifters for that one either. The bike they came from had an under the bar trigger, and a stem mounted single lever for the left side shifter. It came off of an old Hercules.
I am mainly trying to figure out what belongs, and what does not, I have had, have had, or seen many different year examples from Raleigh, but not many Sprites, and I don't believe I've had anything from 1967, so I have to do some research before I just toss a part in favor of what I think belongs.


   RE:MISC: Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Mark Stonich on 9/13/2005 at 12:14:35 AM
May I ask what you paid for the Sprite? I'm trying to sell one for a friend, and have no idea what to ask.

That year Sprite came with dual stem shifters. All the cool guys replaced them with 2 triggers.

The 1st ones came with a terrible stamped sheet metal bellcrank. Front left in the picture.
Later a lovely machined one somewhat resembling a Shimano - front right. AFAIK These are scarce as hens teeth.

The one in the back is a Shimano/SA conversion. I made a 13/32" x 26tpi tap and fixturing to hold the piece in alignment. I drill out the 9.5x1mm threads and tap in the new ones. The threaded rod part is fromn a Sturmey indicator chain, for compatability with Sturmey cables.

The spring solves a shifting problem with the S5s. When you shift, the flat ends of the dogs on the sliding sun gear can butt up againtst the flat faces on the dogs on the axle. If this happens, the cable stops pulling and you end up in a false neutral. With the spring added, the cable keeps moving, stretching the cable. When the dogs are no longer lined up, the spring completes the shift. IMHO the spring makes the S5 superior to the S5/1 or S5/2, which were desighed to cure the same problem.

BTW every S5 I've ever seen, I own 7 and have seen plenty of others, has been dated 1976.

BTW I love my woman's framed Sport. Fitted with an S5, a 25t rear cog, and Wald's biggest "Newsboy" baskets, it's a great bike for running errands. The 2nd best thing about a woman's frame is that few 12-24 year old males, a demographic that includes most bike theives, would be seen on one.


   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Joe M on 9/13/2005 at 1:33:02 AM
I only gave $10 for the Sprite, the seller was asking $20, but when I walked away, he started dropping the price. I figured at $10, even the sum of it's parts was worth that. The one part I was after is the chainguard, but it's the wrong color anyway. (I have a brown Sports that's missing one).
The stamped sheet metal belcrank is the one I've seen the most, mine is like the top one, sans the spring, and I've noticed the neutral problem. I may try adding the spring, I won't have to worry about the threaded shaft, since they used a universal cable, with a clamp screw.
I have seen several S-5 hubs, but never had a complete bike with one, at least not one that was road worthy when I got it. All were earlier than this one. This one is definitely stamped '67' but the second number is either a
'1' or '1 something', there's a mark after the one, but it's not clear, it sort of looks like a small 'o'.
The rear cog is a 21, the front has a 50 or 52 teeth. Low gear is real low, at that, I can't imagine what 25 in the rear would be like, great for hills though.

I had an old Dunelt as a kid that I delivered newpapers with, I also had one of those giant Wald front baskets, along two supersized rear baskets, plus two smaller saddle baskets mounted outboard on the rear set. A set of punture resistant tubes filled with a self sealing fluid, (which would freeze in the winter), and a dual brake lever off of a tandem, for braking with my left hand. I ran that bike for about 8 years like that until the frame gave out. The headtube lugs cracked and started to sag, it had a BSA rear hub. I paid like $5 at a fleamarket for it then, and it was pretty rough, but perfect for what I needed it for. It had to be one of the best bikes I ever had as far as never needing any repairs, it just kept going and going, I can't blame the frame for the failure, the total load had to be a few hundred pounds every day, and it got ridden on a lot of rough roads. The worst thing that ever happened to it was one time I had it fully loaded, and got it going pretty good on a hill between areas of my route, and it was pouring freezing rain to boot, a car pulled out and I didn't dare hit the brakes, which forced me to veer off the road into a frozen over driveway in a slide dumping the bike on it's left side, I slid one way, and the bike slid the other right into a concrete wall, front wheel first at full speed, with a full load of wrapped newpapers. It survived with a slighlty bent fork, smashed basket, flat spotted wheel, bent bars, and crushed shift trigger. I finished the route that day with the bike like it was, and when I got home, did some makeshift repairs, and kept using it, The trigger was stuck in first gear, and would shift to second, but you had to hold it there, I hammered out the basket, straighened the forks with a piece of waterpipe, and went out and bought a set of knobby tires to which I added screws to for winter traction. The bike survived like that for at least 4 more years of abuse. My mistake at that time was ignoring the front wheel, the axle snapped a few weeks later, and by the time I got home, I had cored the entire hub, the bike spent the rest of it's life with a rusty used front wheel from an old Columbia parts bike. I never was sure what year it was, but from what I can remember about it now, it was probably an early 50's model. After that bike, I looked for nothing but British bikes. My bikes now have a much easier life, no baskets, no heavy loads except for me at 6'3" tall and 260 lbs.
I guess if I can find a chainguard for the Sports, I'll leave this together, maybe give it some TLC to spruce it up a bit, but it would make a great local runner, not to mention that the bike theives won't give it a second look.

   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Bryan on 9/13/2005 at 3:07:06 AM
I have a Sprite with those dual triggers. Mine is the green bronze color, I think its a 1967. It has a front dynohub. I always assumed it was stock, but not sure. Check Retro Raleighs, I think they have the catalog that details them.

   RE:MISC:†††Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Joe M on 9/13/2005 at 4:48:52 AM
I did check Retro Raleigh's, but the 1967 catalog doesn't show what it had for shifters, but I don't see any triggers on the bars. Being that the one's on mine look so new, I just figured that someone made an attempt to get this ridable again, and gave up when it didn't work out as planned, or decided buying a new bike was easier.
I took the saddle off and apart, it looks to have been recovered, but the original cover is fine, still, it's quite large, and nothing like the standard Brooks B72 or mattress saddles.
I guess this one will get the full treatment, at least be in line for a good going over. It will take me awile to get to it, but it will be another project for this winter.
I would like to find the correct shifters and belcrank though, maybe I'll find another donor bike at the flea market?


   RE:RE:MISC: Raleigh Sprite 5 posted by Dick in FL on 9/13/2005 at 5:36:53 AM
Second the motion for tall women's frames. They are typically found in better shape than men's bikes, are easier to mount and dismount with panniers or trunks, and are accordingly better suited to urban errands where one is frequently on and off. In fact, if you examine the training syllabus for police bicycle patrols, step-through bikes would be ideal (except for the machismo factor). One of the maneuvers a bicycle cop needs to perfect is a flying dismount after running down a fugitive. Much easier and safer with a step-through frame!

Here in Florida step-through bicycles continue to be popular with elder male bicyclists whose infirmities interfere with swinging a leg over.

WANTED:†††raleigh dl1 posted by: Gary on 9/11/2005 at 1:17:38 AM
I'm looking for a Raliegh DL1 in black in fair to good condition. It doesn't have to be pristine but it does need to be serviceable. Am I out of my mind? I don't really know how rare they are so don't laugh too hard if I appear naive.

   RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Mark Stonich on 9/13/2005 at 12:30:55 PM
As I said, "Best offer" at the ABCE. I'll be surprized if I get less than $300. I don't want to ship it. But I need to get rid of it, and a few others, so I can get the minivan back in the garage before winter. We only have room for so many bikes, but we've gained 3 in the last month, and I'm working on aquiring a 4th.

Last week I lucked into an '81 DL-1 that had been ridden once, then stored as an investment. It looks like somebody sent it here in a time machine, directly from a 1981 bike shop. I'm riding it, but only on sunny days. We get some funny looks, with Jane on her tiny white '70 Moulton MkIII and me on that huge, shiny black beast.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Gary on 9/13/2005 at 1:41:07 PM
OK then, but if it doesn't sell and you are in the mood to ship it let me know. I know, it'll be a snowy day in July on Lake Calhoune.
remove the remove spam and the (at)

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Mark Stonich on 9/14/2005 at 4:02:49 AM
As popular as old Raleighs are here, I don't think I'll need to ship it.

Speaking of a snowy day on Lake Calhoun, See this ride I led a while back;

BTW I just heard of the most amazing development. There is a group of guys here in Minneapolis, all Mexican, who race beat up DL-1s, indoors. They've asked a local bike shop owner, to import a batch of special 28" tyres from China, that supposedly won't mar floors.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Gary on 9/14/2005 at 5:48:18 AM
Aw heck, when we were kids (late 60's, early seventies) and spring fever was kicking in we used to ride on Lake of the Isles just for kicks. It was where the ice was cleared off for skating. Have you ever tried turning on two wheels? It was fun just to crash!
Is there still a bike shop on Hennipen near uptown called Wheel Goods?


   RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by sam on 9/11/2005 at 8:10:04 PM
there not rare buy sence everyone is ebay wise expect to pay between $200 and $300 for one.Hope you find one for $50!---sam

   RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Kurt K. on 9/11/2005 at 9:09:34 PM
There's a 1978 DL-1 on eBay right now that should fit the bill:

Never mind his nonsense about it being from 1947 - it's not.


   RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Kurt K. on 9/11/2005 at 9:12:26 PM
P.S.: Look close - front half of the leather is nicely torn off the nose of the saddle frame.


   RE:RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Gary on 9/11/2005 at 9:48:05 PM
Thanks for the heads up for the one on Ebay. You know, I can't figure out why that one got past me. I thought I had all the searches for a DL1 covered.
Question- Are these DL1's the bikes with the really big frame and wheels?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Kurt K. on 9/12/2005 at 1:03:34 AM
Hello Gary,

Yes - the DL-1 model features the large frame and the 28" wheels.

Beware though - many sellers on eBay have a tendency to incorrectly list Sports models with chaincases as "DL-1s". Let the rear-facing dropouts, bolt on rear stays, fender pattern, and slack frame angles be your guide as to whether it is a true DL-1 or simply an early Sports/Superbe with all the options.

By the way, I use these six searches to find DL-1s:

"Raleigh Tourist"
"Raleigh Roadster"
"Raleigh DL"
"Raleigh DL1"
"Raleigh DL-1"
"Raleigh Rod"

Take care,


   RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by jack on 9/12/2005 at 4:32:25 AM
I have one that is too small for me that I'd take $225 for. Trouble is, I can sell locally so I don't want shipping out of state (CA).


   RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Mark Stonich on 9/12/2005 at 11:38:29 PM
Will you be at the ABCE in Minneapolis this weekend? Hard to pass up an event with a Hetchins toss.

I'll be selling a '76 DL-1 there for "Best offer". It's a little cleaner than most, not having been ridden since taking "Best in Show" at the 1st ABCE, but it's not pristine by any means. The bikes that should have beat it were all owned by judges.

   RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Gary on 9/13/2005 at 4:15:54 AM
Minneapolis? Wow! We used to live there when I was between 10 and 15 years old. That's where I fell in love with the DL1. Our next door neighbor had one and he used to let me ride it around Lake of the Isles.
So, how much for your DL1? And I'm sorry I will not be in Mpls this weekend.

   RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Jud on 9/18/2005 at 4:50:01 AM
The DL-1 has had a bit of a cult following in Minneapolis for years. There are always quite a few at the Blind Lizard picnic every June on Nicollet island. But I've got to know more about DL-1 beater races. When, where, how?

   RE:RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Mark Stonich on 9/19/2005 at 3:21:04 AM
Yes I have tried turning a 2 wheeler on ice. I commuted 32 winters into downtown Minneapolis. At the 1st Annual Human Powered Ice Vehicle World Championships another longtime winter commuter and I tried running on just rubber tires. Thatís when we discovered just how much slicker clean lake ice is than dirty street ice.

Wheel Goods has been gone for many years.

Someone from out of state came to the ABCE this weekend and, not being aware of how highly they are valued around here, sold a fairly decent DL-1 for $100. That put an end to my trying to get a good price for mine at the jumble. At least it went to a friend. You missed a damn good time. Lots of great British lightweights and roadsters there.

BTW, Jane and I have only missed a few of the Blind Lizard Picnics over the years.

Iíve some feelers out, trying to get details on the indoor rod brake races. Iíll send you details when I get them.


   RE:RE:WANTED: raleigh dl1 posted by Lindsey on 6/14/2006 at 10:10:51 PM
I just joined the motorcylce movement and work at a dealership. Just heard of the Blind Lizards, when in June is it this year?

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:†††A monograph upon Raleigh serial numbers of 1947-1955 posted by: Kurt K. on 9/10/2005 at 8:21:43 PM
I wrote up a monograph this morning on my current findings as to the pattern of Raleigh's serial numbers from 1947-1955 and some additional information.

It became a bit long to post here, so I ultimately put the text in an HTML file for all to read:

Will keep everyone updated as to future updates.

Take care,


MISC:†††Rollfast three speed w/SA hub with British wheels and running gear? posted by: Joe M on 9/10/2005 at 4:55:32 AM
I picked up an odd Rollfast three speed today, it looks like an early to mid 60's bike, but it has all British components? The frame is definitely American, non-lugged, with the name UltraFlight. The bars, stem, wheels, seat, and fenders look like they came off of an old Robin Hood or similar bike, but it has one piece cranks, and the usuall Rollfast trim. I have seen early Rollfast bikes that actually say Made In England, but they look like a rebadge of a British bike,lugged frame and all. This one is just using the British bolt ons.
I was wondering if anyone might know what the chances are that this is original? Or, is it most likely a bike that someone has done a parts swap in the past. The SA hub is dated 1963, British brakes, John Bull pads, and it uses a twist grip shifter. The bike rides great, but it's in only ok condition as far as cosmetics, but with a lot of elbow grease it would clean up to be pretty nice, but not mint. The fenders are chrome, and look like the ones on my Raleigh Sports. Normally, I would assume that it's a put together bike, but everything looks so untouched (years of grease and grime build up). I found it at a yard sale, the owner looked to be about 80, and said he had it for years, but couldn't ride it, but said his son had bought it for him used years ago. The tires are matching US made Carlisle's, and they show a good bit of wear, so I am guessing that they were at least with the rims for at least 20 or so years. All cables are original, and working, and the cable clamps look to never have been moved, there is no sign of any other set being on the frame either. I got cheap, if only for the parts, so I didn't get hurt, but before I part it out, I just wanted to check, I hate to part out an all original bike, especially one that's in good riding condition.
It took it for a quick ride, and it rides great, not a single mechanical problem, but if it's not original, I could really use the parts for a '63 Philips frameset I have here.


   RE:MISC: Rollfast three speed w/SA hub with British wheels and running gear? posted by sam on 9/11/2005 at 1:57:39 AM
I've never seen one but D.P.Harris did import a lot of english stuff---wouldn't be supprised to learn it was original---keep looking for info---sam

   RE:MISC:†††Rollfast three speed w/SA hub with British wheels and running gear? posted by Joe M on 9/12/2005 at 7:15:52 AM
I got the name wrong on the 3 speed Rollfast, it reads Ultralight, I read it quickly and thought it said UltraFlight. I also have an Ultraflight, it's a single speed with a Bendix red strip hub, and Crown everything else, in other words it's all made by Rollfast. It's probably about the same age. I do know that they used SA hubs, but can't say for sure if they ever used any other British components. The part that's confusing is that it all looks so untouched, no paint marks from old components, no wrench marks, and everything fits and works so perfect. The Raleigh and Robin Hood I have has the fender stays attached to braze ons, but the Rollfast uses solid aluminum stays, which go to the axle nuts, but the fender tin is identical other than it's chrome. The stays are solid aluminum half round bar, not stamped sheet metal.
I was never a big fan of the American built three speeds, but this one rides so well, and it's still in as found shape. I haven't done anything to it yet, not even a relube. I did a Google search for Rolfast hoping to find a pic or two, and there's not much out there. I know they have been gone since the late 70's, but I have found nothing on the older three speeds at all. They see to be known more for their middle weights and cruisers.