ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   two questions posted by: meaux on 8/2/2006 at 12:00:52 AM
I was given a '75 DL-1 for rehab. New tires,tubes and chain; seat and longer post from a donor bike, and lots of anti rust chemical and wire brushing the 28" rims has it back to work. I'm a commuter--transportational cyclist.

Two questions for this group and I've gone back about a year on the list and have not found the answers:

1) the rear cog is 19 tooth and I live in some hills. I've seen a number of recommendations to go to 22 tooth but the only one I can find for a 1/8 chain is Pyramid and the picture doesn't show the tabs that secure it to the hub. Will this work? If not where can I find one?

2) It has a Brooks b73 seat. The hardware is fine but the leather is toast (20 years on a patio). I have found the advice to replace the whole thing with a new one but nothing satisfies me as to why. I am not willing to invest heavily in a bike that may be stolen from downtown-lamp-post-cable-lock-parking. Why can't a new piece of leather be cut and riveted to the intact and tensionable frame?

Any help from this experienced group would be most appreciated. Meaux

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   two questions posted by David on 8/2/2006 at 2:20:19 AM
Harris Cyclery in Newton, Mass (www.harriscyclery.com) has sprockets from 14 to 24 teeth for SA hubs. Several years ago, someone posted a description of making a mold for a leather saddle [from an old one] and replacing the leather. I think the cyclart.com can arrange to do it, too. (I'd buy a new/used saddle myself)
Good luck.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: two questions posted by Neal on 8/2/2006 at 2:47:16 AM
For replacement cogs, the Shimano Nexus cogs will work, too, I believe. AirBomb lists a 22-tooth model for $3.17, not including shipping: http://store.airbomb.com/ItemDesc.asp?IC=FW7022


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: two questions posted by Warren on 8/2/2006 at 10:13:35 PM
Custom leatherwork is a a highly skilled craft and I can't see how anyone could make a properly cured and treated replacement saddle cover and install it for anywhere near the price of a new one.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   two questions posted by Meaux on 8/2/2006 at 11:37:28 PM
Thanks for the tips guys. I was willing to do the installation of both the cog and the leather myself. Rivets are not that tricky but the molding obviously is.

I am new to these roadsters but had always admired the working bike from travels in the third world where the rod brake still rules. I am just a little disappointed that you can't find cogs for 1/8 chains (if you click on those at Harris it advises they have them for 3/32 chains only). Yes the latter will work but won't stand up to hard use. Meaux

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: two questions posted by Neal on 8/3/2006 at 2:13:19 AM
Another source for cogs is OldBike Trader: http://oldbiketrader.co.uk/display_Sturmey_Archer.php?options=gear.
They list 22t 1/8" cogs for 5 pounds each.


   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: two questions posted by Kurt K. on 8/3/2006 at 1:02:09 PM
Most local bike shops should have a bin full of old 1/8" cogs on hand.

Beware of the 1/8" Shimano cogs made for coasterbrakes - these are just a tad smaller then the Sturmey cogs, and will give you fits while trying to fit it.

Bring your Sturmey hub while you're at it if possible - and if not, bring a spare Sturmey AW driver.


   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   two questions posted by Matthew on 8/3/2006 at 9:04:23 PM
Sorry folks, one and all, I'm going to be a pedant.

SO PEDANT WARNING - don't read if you are easily upset.

There are NO COGS on bicycles what so ever.

Cogs are the small peices of applewood (self lubricating) which are fitted into wooden wheels in wind and water mills. They are the teeth of the gear wheels which drive the machinery thus providing the clonkedy clunkety noise that mills make.

What we all have on all our bicycles are SPROCKETS which drive or are driven by chains.

In our Sturmey Archer Hubs we have GEARS which are machined to drive each other by close intermeshing.

On our derailieurs (spell that how you will)we have clusters of, you guessed it, SPROCKETS.

There you have it, the rant of a middle aged agricultural engineer. I can't help it its in the training. Now we can talk in the proper terms but I forgive everyone their gears cogs and sprockets, so please forgive me.

Matthew - the draughtsman made me do it!

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS: two questions posted by sam on 8/3/2006 at 11:00:50 PM
The 22 tooth sprocket you need was a standard idem on the german torpedo 3 speed.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   two questions posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 8/4/2006 at 9:43:57 AM
He's right you know. After all.... that's why Spacely Sprockets and Cogswell Cogs were really never in competition to begin with!

But I wonder... how they got "casette" out of "cluster"...



Larry "The CAD designer" Bone


   RE:RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   two questions posted by Kurt K. on 8/4/2006 at 3:04:57 PM
>But I wonder... how they got "casette" out of "cluster"...

I'd put a wild guess that the VHS-cassette tape reel engagement system had something to do with it.


AGE / VALUE:   Hercules Hercumatic 3 speed hub shifter posted by: Chris on 8/1/2006 at 3:36:15 PM
It's mint, and marvelous and guess what! The spring is shot! The bottom or first gear does not hold under pressure because the spring is not tense or tough enough to hold it down.
Sorry, but I use low gear. I remember Edward fixing a Sturmey shifter but anybody ever do a Hercules "Hercumatic"?
I wonder because of Sturmey- Archer's dislike of Sir Edward Crane's altering of the 3 speed hubs and shifters. I wonder if somebody thought they would be cute and give the Hercules Co. faulty shifter springs?

Should never have a problem with these springs. Blue steel, and wide and marvelous springs. The one part that kills the whole shifter.
How come Hercules did not copy the four speed hubs as well?
Sturmey- archer was making 3 speed A.W. type hubs in their plant in Nottingham but over in Birmingham, England ........ Hercules, and Brampton fittings ( another large company, not related to Crane's Hercules company) were making the same A.W. hub design with differences in Birmingham, England. We see pictures of the Nottingham Sturmey- Archer hub plant and machinery that made the A.W. 3 speed there in Nottingham.
It seems that rival Hercules Cycle and Motor Co.s involvement has been forgotten.
The Birmingham England Hercules Cycle and Motor Co. factory plant that made the Hercumatic 3 speed hubs with their higher quality machines steel 3 speed hubs with better ball end caps and differently made up 3 speed shifters and different looking cables, and different style cable clips and different steel cable stoppers, different indicator chain nuts, e.t.c. That was a whole another plant building all set up for making the 3 speed hubs and it must have been almost as large as Sturmey- Archer / Raleigh was in Nottingham. This is the basic bread and butter 3 speed hub.

Birmingham was as large or larger than Nottingham as a bicycle center of industry.
Sturmey Archer had their hands full with both Crane's
Hercules cycle and Motor and then not to mention B.S.A.

I have been reading and comparing books and will explain further.

If you are familiar with the: War of the(electrical) Currents which was the struggle between George Westinghouse's A.C. current and Thomas Edision and D.C. current and the outcome of it all.

Something similar was happening in England between Sturmey- Archer ( Nottingham) and Birmingham's Sir Edmund Crane's Hercules Cycle and Motor Co. of Birmingham. The Brampton Co and also and maybe more so, B.S.A.
Also we have the J.C. Higgans 3 speed hub that I tend to think was made in Birmingham by perhaps Hercules and then lets skip off to Graz, Austria and take a look at the Steyr- daimler Puch version of the A.W. hub.
What happened to Steyr's plant and machinery? Was it the old Hercules tooling, just up rooted? I don't think so. there are differences and another question is: Did the Hercules Cycle and Motor Co (Birmingham, England and Graz, Austria Steyr Daimler Puch bicycle hub factory plant operate side by side running production in two locations at the same time period making these hubs that are so similar?
Thats a lot of bicycle 3 speed hub tooling machinery in a lot of locations. There is more to this, hadland skipped over a lot of information regarding the bread and butter mainstay of the cycle industry. the 3 speed hub.
I'll finish tomorrow.
The 3 speed hub was a big thing in the beginning and Sturmey could not cope with demand and this kind of became crazy and it got out of hand.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Hercules Hercumatic 3 speed hub shifter posted by Bryan on 8/1/2006 at 9:16:04 PM
I wish Mel Gibson would make a movie about this history instead of getting himself into trouble about religious issues. This is a story that needs to be told. Good work rooting all this out Chris.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Hercules Hercumatic 3 speed hub shifter posted by Chris on 8/2/2006 at 8:52:44 PM
I might be able to uncover a spot or two but all this is buried and digging it up and piecing it back together to learn about it is beyond me. I keep trying, mesmerized by this stuff.
Maybe I am wrong,or partly wrong. This is just very difficult to unravel with everything intertwined. I am just comparing two books and wondering why things don't fall into line.I'm not able to root thru Europe, examine archive collections, ask people who were there and so on.
So what I'm thinking about out loud here is going to be rough draft type wonderings. I will elaborate more and be specific and leave the group here to think about what I am saying.

I wish I lived in the Birmingham, England area and able to pick thru Nottingham and surrounding area doing research. The few big name collectors in England who go about and gather up used bikes and advertize are the fellows at the jumbles selling used bikes / parts and you know, the big guys who offer n.o.s. old inventory on e- bay and so on. They are in this for the money and yes, they are also riders and fans of old British and French bicycles the big time collectors who make out big on this. They are the ones with the knowledge and they know so and so who has an "in" because they know people. The collector who gets the paper records and photos and notes as well as so many hundreds of British pounds worth of old cycle collectables before it goes to another collector or the tip/ garbage.
They are the ones who are the ones to ask these questions of. They walk away from you and are silent or grin and drink beer. Only putting up with you because they know you are going to pull out money and buy something from them. People clam up and don't volunteer things many times too.
This was an entire industry with many different business and factories and a lot of people had work in a cycle trade doing different things and all these companies and it folded into itself and then it just vaporized like steam off of a hot road until there is nothing left. It is astounding. We just have this little puddle to play in whereas there used to be a whole huge lake to swim and boat in and now, it's just all gone.
I'll bring my notes with me next time I sit here in front of the computer.


AGE / VALUE:   my CamelBack posted by: Hollis on 8/1/2006 at 3:08:40 PM
Ok, you guys must be getting sick of my pestering by now, lol, I will post a pic of my customized presumably 50's british camel back. It originally sported 28's it now rolls on 26x1.95 on/off road knobbies with hard centre beads. Front rim is a Weinman USA aluminum 36 spoke, the rear is a 28 spoke doublewalled eyeletted cyclocross rim laced to a nos 1973 Sturmey AW. All routing of cables is using chrome Strumey clip on cable mounts and pulley, trigger shifter is from the early sixties?
The steering tube races are from a Raleigh Tarantula and the aluminum stem comes off a super cycle 10 speed and the "made in Holland" red n' white was also made by Supercycle.
seat. Cranks are from a 1978 Raleigh Sprite or Sprint there a three peice 49 tooth Sugino single speed with guard ring and Aluminum arms, new pedals are aluminum BMX platforms with replaceable studs. Bottom bracket is Brass, has oil port and new cups and bearings from a 2007 Raleigh Portage.
Rear brakes are the wacky big plate style mountain bike brakes with the brass slider track, -- remember these????
seat post is aluminum from a trek, bars are Zoom aluminum
downhill/bobber style with crossbar. Chrome springer front end with bullet light, red sparkle motobike grips. Brake lever is aluminum Weinman . reflectors are vintage cateyes and lucas...... oh it's painted poppy red.

AGE / VALUE:šššB.S.A. Paratrooper bike posted by: Chris on 7/31/2006 at 8:44:38 PM
I still have not found a seat post in alloy that fits the B.S.A. Paratrooper bike. The one that came with the bike is way too small. My alloy fenders have eyelets for two braces on each side the kind that you have with Blumels mudguards. There is no drilling in the tail end of the bike for the braces. I am not going to drill the fender and mount a basic wire type Raleigh Sports fender brace on this and ignore the braces for the fenders. I have the funky wingnuts for the fenders but the bike was not made by B.S.A. with any holes for fenders or for that matter a rear rack. I have original bolts and nuts but not taps to cut the threads. The bike came stock for the fellows in the war and fenders were never put on the B.S.A. except for post war models. I don't know I will have to look at more pictures. I was looking thru the Schwinn book that shows the Schwinn paratrooper bike and I like it better than the B.S.A. when it comes to the pedals that are normal type and how ingienously ( intelligently designed) that they folded up. Never saw a Schwinn version of the common B.S.A. Paratrooper bike except in the picture in the book.
The original cranks to the para bike I threw away and I hang my head in shame (well not really) as I hate the sliding bar pedals. I want a real pedal. I went back to original brakes and leavers and I'll be crazy enough to fit new salmon kool stop/ Scott Mathauser pads into these ancient olive drap brake shoe holders. Maybe the Hidiuminium brakes after all? I dunno.

Fitting the bell after I have the handlebar grips and brake leavers on the new alloy handlebar means taking the grip off in hot water again and this is a 60 year old thick John Bull/ Raleigh handlebar grips. The set a bought a whole bike for for 300.00 just to get those grips. The bike? BAH. Parted it out. Those luscious grips. OHH. Now, you know the bike will fall over and that bell will get scratched or dented and look terrible.
When I go missing and I turn up in France it was for that Mavic Module 4 eyeletted rim that takes the 26 X 1 3/8 tire. Still am the king of small parts.
Invited the trashpicker into the house, gave him the grand tour, poured Coca Cola and showed him the vintage Cadilac brochures and pictures of Harley Earl with granddad and the diamond tie tack that says "Engineering staff" The tail fins on the the 58 Eldorado Biarritz are my grandpas and keeping that collection is easier than the bike stuff that is all over the now renovated house. Still catching it for throwing too much away. It's hard to part with the bike stuff because I picked it all up gathered it myself. The Caddy collection was inherited and stays put.
Gave some bike stuff away. John Bull made rubber cable clips but they were to fragile to survive transplanting and use on the next bike.
I just want to get the bike on the road I can play about with cool ways of setting it up over the winter.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: B.S.A. Paratrooper bike posted by Chris on 8/1/2006 at 3:35:00 PM
Lucas bell update:
I took a look at it. Just because Weinmann later used the same clip design, the Lucas people were smarter.
Something got ommitted with Weinmann and it makes a difference.
The clip is held in place with the bell by a screw. There is a flat half circle clip that has a square nut with tabs, one on each side. This square nut with the tabs fits into the flat steel handlebar clip. You see these type clips on weinmann brake handles.
Now those you can't pull apart because when you dislodge that square nut you'll never get it back together and I've ruined these clips and the parts wind up in the junk drawer.
HOWEVER ( and I love this!) with the Lucas bell there is the same square nut with two tabs but one end is spot welded in place to the clip and the other end is a tab in hole type fitting so you really can remove the bell with the screw and then unclip one tab out and then bend it back to wrap it around the handlebar and then pop it back into place.
Then you screw in the bolt and adjust the bell and Voilla! Thanks to the forsight of the engineers at the famed Jos. Lucas Co. you can install a bell without removing handlebar grips and brakes.
First time I have seen this square nut being held in place on one end permanently with a welded end tab.
This way you don't lose the bits trying to get it reassembled onto the handlebars.

A good, stable, rear mounted kickstand will keep the bike from falling over.
The frame construction on the B.S.A. is making fitting a kickstand a chore due to the width between the two parts that make up the frame.The bike has the original silver "two rifles" frame decal and it's mint.
This is the bike to mount a motor on like a Vincent Firefly but thanks to the frame construction, I'd get into mounting bracket nightmares with an underslung motor but other types of motors would work.

AGE / VALUE:   Sunbeam for sale posted by: Matthew on 7/31/2006 at 8:48:35 PM
eBay Item number: 170012546480

Gents Sunbeam with Lauterwasser bars and custom 'under tube shifter.

I shouldn't be telling you folks about this! Its near me, relatively, and my size too. Will it be my price?

You know me well enough to know that its NMA NRTS DKWSI NMSB etc.

Matthew - acronyms are habit forming, OYTR

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Sunbeam for sale posted by Bryan on 8/1/2006 at 9:20:12 PM
Beautiful! This one is calling your name Matthew.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Sunbeam for sale posted by Matthew on 8/3/2006 at 9:08:21 PM
It sold for a miserly £56 sterling. I didn't buy it for more reasons than I care to mention but some one is a happy cyclist tonight.

Matthew - less Sunbeam more sun dried.