AGE / VALUE:    posted by: S.H. on 9/4/2008 at 9:22:01 AM
Correct me if i am wrong,but think B.S.A. were taken over by Raleigh in 1960 and the brand name B.S.A. was carried on being used.What I want to know is when the name was dis-continued.Thanks!

   RE:AGE / VALUE: posted by Matthew on 9/4/2008 at 11:49:34 AM
Hi Stephen,

BSA cycles were still available in the early 1980s.

Matthew - Busy Bee

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Stephen Hogben on 9/4/2008 at 12:38:29 PM
Thank you Matthew,I am suprised the name carried on so long! I have been offered one with cable brakes,have not seen it yet but it is blue with silver mud guards.Maybe worth getting as a future "old" bike. Thanks again.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/5/2008 at 2:33:15 AM
Look at the attachments for the rear fender stays... and of course the date stamped on the hub. Not sure what the paradigm of "old" is for you but I have a 1961 pre-Raleigh Armstrong that is red with "silver" (read-finely aged chrome) mudguards. It's a wonderful machine that I'm converting to a feaux-clubman.


Larry "Boneman" Bone - is that what they refer to as "patina"?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Stephen Hogben on 9/5/2008 at 1:19:07 PM
I thought my definition of old was pre 1945, but I have a 1962 Hercules (the one I use by far the most)and I think of that as old with its rod brakes etc.So old is as you see it!Preferably old is well pre 1957,the year I was born!No, nothing can be old unless it is 1940's,FACT!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/5/2008 at 4:07:48 PM
Yes... time is "relative" after all. It does bring to mind an "olde" saw pursuant to the USA and Europe. Folks here in the US think 100 years is a long time... whereas Folks in Europe think of 100 miles as a long distance.

Seeing as the velocipedes we favour are of a timeless design... well... there you have it.


Larry "Boneman" Bone - a year older...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Steve on 9/6/2008 at 2:13:45 AM
My children think I'm ancient but I tell them not to worry because I'm still young at heart (I don't mention the aching limbs), they reply...well why do you like old junk !

Wife is often heard saying...Stephen, I wished you'd grow up and act your age !

I think I'm due to have a mid-life crisis soon !

Steve - you're as young as you feel...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Stephen Hogben on 9/6/2008 at 7:50:32 AM
Larry,have not heard of that"olde saw" but you are dead right,a 100 years ago is virtually yesterday,a 100 miles is a bl**dy long way!

   RE:AGE / VALUE: posted by Matthew on 9/6/2008 at 12:28:55 PM
Hi Folks,

On the relative age scheme; Yes 100 miles is a long way and a hundred years only takes us back to my granddad being a toddler (except he would have been an infant as toddlers weren't invented in 1908). In the UK we think a 3 litre car has a large engine, in the US of A you'd call it a town car with a little 180 Cu.In engine. We think 16" wheels with 205 rims on cars are large, in the USA they would be a bit narrow. We put diesel engines in hatchback cars, you call them compacts and put petrol engines in lorries (trucks).
We put 40 mph speed limits on local dual carriageways and drive at 70mph nationally. You drive a 55mph nationally and have 8 lane highways just to get across a city.

But you know something we all appreciate? A well built bicycle regardless of age and ancestry.

It is that which makes this undoubtedly the very best discussion board on the whole net.

Matthew - off on a 250 mile charity ride on Wednesday

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Stephen Hogben on 9/7/2008 at 12:14:45 PM
250 miles!!!!!!! Matthew I salute you!

AGE / VALUE:   Errors in the book; Raleigh and the British Bicycle Industry posted by: Chris on 9/2/2008 at 2:07:47 PM
Raleigh and the British Bicycle Industry an Economic and Business History, 1870- 1960

Roger Lloyd- Jones and M. J. Lewis with the assistance of Mark Eason
Ashgate publishing co.

Well first off I want to recommend the book, it should be on your shelf alongsides the Tony Hadland book: The Sturmey- Archer story.

However, there are proofreading problems with the book.

For example, on page 248 We are told that on August 1 1960 just 23 days prior to the death of Raleigh's president Sir Harold Bowden Raleigh was converted into a new trading company to acquire all the assets of it's subsidiaries....... ( We are in the section where the book discuss the 1960 merger with the B.C.C. British Cycle Corporation.

Now go down the bottom of the same page and it says that in 1961 Bowden comments on the range of Raleigh mopeds saying
"We consider that we have the finest range of mopeds in the world and the performance of our lightweight scooter has already created for itself a wonderful name"

How can he say that, if he died 23 days after August first of 1960?

Did he( Sir Harold Bowden) come back from the dead?

Dates and or names are wrong.

The book also messes up the Humber twin tube fork introduction date. It was already a famous part of the Humber bicycles long, long, before Raleigh bought up Humber in 1932.

Few pictures in the book, it is confusingly written, and not very well written over all.

It's not forgivable to have so few photographs in the book. Proofreading errors lead to confusion

George Wilson was killed in a car accident along with his gardener about this same time 1961 This goes unmentioned completely.

Three pages for discussion of the 1960 Merger with the B.C.C.


A poor job of a book. I still recommend it, it has it's strong points it's a place to start as you jump off into your quest for answers. It re- tells already published things and does not shed much new light on the subject.

Others could have done way better.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Errors in the book; Raleigh and the British Bicycle Industry posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/4/2008 at 9:36:00 AM
Corrigendum..... that's what it is... and sounds to be a plethora of them.



Larry "Boneman" Bone - Logophile, Luddite, Curmudgeon

ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Took me long enough... posted by: Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/2/2008 at 12:12:58 PM
After... I dunno.... a couple of YEARS... I finally get around to the DL-1 "project".

I had determined that for the hills in the Poconos here... that standard gearing was too tall and while I would ride the machine around... and it was enjoyable... it certainly could have been even more so.

Meanwhile... the rear tyre had developed a leak... and the tyres... gumwalls actually... were getting a bit tatty. Actually... you could hardly tell the rear tyre was a gumwall at all.

So... a while back I actually procured a set of new Kendas for it... as well as a 22T cog.

Had to actually play hookey to find the time... but doggone it's out there ready to roll. I took it up the block and back and the difference was markedly noticable.

I'm waiting on the doggone UPS guy... as I have something incoming I have to SIGN for... :-S but once that's taken care of I tend to go for a nice cruise with it.

And as kewl as rod brakes are... what a JOY to have to deal with getting them out of the way.... and re-adjusting upon re-assembly.

Glad it's not something need be done frequently for certain.

I'll post back a ride report once I get out there.


Larry "Boneman" Bone - today was the tomorrow I said I would get around to it yesterday.

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Took me long enough... posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/2/2008 at 2:49:09 PM
Ah.. the machine rode as gracefully and comfortably as I well remembered. The new gearing is perfect for me... yet at the end of a 4 mile ride, the legs knew the difference between the DL-1 and the Sprite I've been tooling around on of late.

The Kenda tyres roll quite nicely... are inflated to the max of 50psi and ride as well as expected.


Larry "Boneman" Bone - anachronism on wheels..... ;-)

   RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Took me long enough... posted by Thom J. on 9/3/2008 at 9:40:31 AM
Larry- Great to hear how well the DL-1 turned-out and rode. I've been searching for one to add to my collection for a while but haven't found anything worth spending the money on. Your satisfaction with the bike has given me the boost to search again. Thx much, Thom.

   RE:RE:ENGLISH ROADSTERS:   Took me long enough... posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/4/2008 at 6:09:08 AM
Thanks Thom. Good luck in your search... they are out there. Be patient... I'm sure one has your name on it.

I guess the best way to compare is if your used to driving... say a small or mid sized car. Like a Cobalt or a Neon.. that would be like riding a Sports.

the DL-1 is most assuredly a Lincoln Continental or Cadillac Coupe DeVille by comparision. Not only in ride characteritics... but alas... weight to.

It has to do with the size, weight, large tyres and of course the woderfully slack frame angles.


Larry "Boneman" Bone - It rolls... like a Rolls.....

AGE / VALUE:   SAY IT, SAY IT, SAY IT!! posted by: Chris on 9/1/2008 at 7:46:02 PM
Sam Kinison used to yell: Say it, say it, say it!

I want you all to say it aloud right now. Then say it to everybody you meet. Say, (your name here)" I am looking for old bicycles and this is my phone number."
I told the people I was looking for a bike, that I loved old bikes. She told me they have like 50 bikes, a tandem, a three wheeler and "old fashoned bikes with those balloon tires"

You have to ask all the time, tell them, tell them you are looking. you always must be looking and searching and telling people and asking and asking if they know anybody who has an old bike or bikes.

the bikes ARE STILL out there. the old stuff, the good stuff the utterly fantastic collections forgotten in the sheds, garages, attics, antique shops that have closed down. People die and the stuff falls into hands of folks who don't know. These people who have the old bikes don't know what they have and I know my stuff!
You should know your stuff too,

If a blind squirrel like myself can do it, then so can you.
I was getting a ride from these people and she told me they have old bikes. She said it, matter of factly, like it's no big deal but it is a big deal because out of 50 I'll find something worth bringing home. something worth MORE than what I'll pay for it.

Go on, make me proud of you! tell us about what you find. I want to see your bikes that you bring home I want to see them cleaned up and listed on e- bay and I want to see the bgike you gave 20.00 for bring in the 429.00 dollar profit when you sell the thing on e- bay. And if you don't want to re- sell what you have found then want to hear that you are riding it and that you enjoy it.

Cleaning, overhaul, restoration, we can help you.

You have visited old one of the very best web sites out there for old bicycles and I want you to make money, find and enjoy vintage cycling to the fullest.

The people that post here and especially the large number of lurking readers we have here are so smart and experienced and talented they would knock your socks off!

Now go tell everybody that you are looking for old bicycles. Go!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SAY IT, SAY IT, SAY IT!! posted by Steve on 9/2/2008 at 1:39:17 AM
There's a lot of truth in what Chris says, I don't shout quite that loud but I do talk to all sorts of folk on my travels.
Interesting bikes may not be so visable these days but you can be pleasantly surprised what is lurking not so very far away.
Over the last twelve months or so I have had bikes and many wonderful accessories actually given to me, I will also confess to having paid proper money (not a fortune) for three of my bikes.
I have this knack of "landing on" real basket cases, but it's amazing what can be done to a bike in a day or two if you've got some decent bike tools, a variety of bearings and a bit of enthusiasm.

From being an avid "biker" when I was younger to relying on the internal combustion engine for 25 years, I'm now more than happy to revert back to pedal power.

One thing that does happen quite often if you're riding an interesting bike is that people stop you in the street and talk to you...yes actually talk to you !

A young lady of approx 90 to 100 years old stopped me outside the Post Office yesterday and offered to buy my bike, I told her she'd be better off with a BMX...she replied she'd already got one of those but wanted something with a bit of character to it !

If you are venturing out on elderly bikes, do keep an eye on them and secure them properly when parked up.

Is there any truth in the rumour that the powers that be are considering introducing seat belts for cyclists !

Steve - confused


   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  What happens if you don't say it, or say it too late posted by Chris on 9/2/2008 at 2:40:21 PM
If you don't speak up? If you are not looking?

You miss out. It goes to landfil, the garbage man, the skip (as they say in Europe) Somebody else puts it on e- bay and they get the profit from it.
It was not just any old bicycle but a 1951 Club bike, with 531 tubing and rare parts. Sure, it was an old Raleigh, an old bicycle but you didn't dare to dream and be adventureous and go see for yourself. Now, it's gone.

You didn't sell it to Chris, did you?

Sure! He showed up, showed interest and he paid cash!

They looked at me and scowled but I had gotten there first.

I beat out rivals and also, many times saved it from the
landfil and scrap metal man.

How many of you printed out flyers and cards and are you looking?
Oh, we wish you had told us this sooner. I threw it away. it went to scrap, there was nobody who showed any interest.

It's buried in landfil. Hauled away. gone now.

Wow, I'd have given it to you. She (the widow) would have gladly let you have it or have it cheap, if you had said something. You never told us you liked old bicycles!

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  What happens if you don't say it, or say it too late posted by Chris on 9/2/2008 at 2:44:30 PM
The neat thing or one of the neat things has been that I have gotten to run thru huge stashes of collections 50 years worth of somebody's efforts in collecting. Stuff everyplace and I was the only one there.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  What happens if you don't say it, or say it too late posted by Chris on 9/2/2008 at 2:49:11 PM
Don't tell them you are a collector. That's like telling the moonshiners next to their still that you are a revinour/ cop/ agent or that you know or are related to revinour's.

No, you just like old bicycles. Maintain the air of innocence, don't talk any more then necessary.
Know your stuff, the values, what it is going for, buy it and bring it home immediately.

Don't ever mention "e- bay" that word in the kiss of death out in the field.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  What happens if you don't say it, or say it too late posted by Chris on 9/2/2008 at 2:52:40 PM

Slap it up on e- bay, after doing your research filled homework first!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:  What happens if you don't say it, or say it too late posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/2/2008 at 2:52:59 PM
I dunno folks... am I the only one that thinks Chris's passion for these machines is fading just a little?

"Just winding you up" as they say 'cross the pond. I feel your angst actually... I was rolling home with a pickup truck FULL of old british iron when I saw one just tossed atop the trash for collection in Walden, NY.

I simply had not one iota of room left on the truck to save it...



Larry "Boneman" Bone - Roadster Rescue to the rescue!

MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by: Larry "Boneman" Bone on 8/31/2008 at 3:22:15 PM
Alas... the original brooks mattress saddle on my 5 spd. Sprite (27) gave out today.... I have affixed on the machine a hairpin saddle that didn't work out on my DL1 and it seems rather nice on this machine... I procured it a while back from these folks:

I would rather have... a Mattress Saddle to kind of keep it original though.

Haven't had time to look around too much so I thought I would ask here... perhaps save a little time and effort... especially if it's a lost cause.

Thanks gang!

Larry "Boneman" Bone - saddled with an unsettled saddle....

   RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Stephen Hogben on 9/1/2008 at 3:42:11 AM
hello Larry,when you say a mattress saddle do you mean the saddle with springs running the length of the saddle underneath,then horse hair type stuff on top of them then the fabric type cover?If so I have one.It is a bit tatty but servicable,yes it is a brooks.It is of a 1935-1936 Rudge Whitworth ladies bike(light roadster)You are more than werlcome to it if it will help you out!Got a Brooks ladies finesse saddle on the bike now.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/1/2008 at 8:23:12 AM
Much appreciate the offer sir but methinks that's a MUCH earlier version you have there. What I'm looking for is this beastie here:

Thing is.... any "Original" seats like that... will pretty much be in the same dried-out shape. I was hoping someone knew of such a seat being currently produced.

I recall they actually sold one here on oldroads a while back so there is hope...

Again, thanks for the offer.


Larry "Boneman" Bone

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/1/2008 at 8:28:44 AM
Hmmm... here it is. Ebay item: 120298942917

A bit pricier than I would have thought.... That doggone hairpin saddle is looking better on the Sprite by the minute, eh? ;-)


Larry "Boneman" Bone

   RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Stephen Hogben on 9/1/2008 at 2:21:51 PM
Well wish you luck getting your saddle!All the best Steve.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/3/2008 at 2:31:10 AM
Thanks again Steve. Actually... whilst tooling around in the basement "Den of Machines" I was looking over the mattress saddle (Red and WHITE if you can believe it) that was on my 62 Armstrong... and it is of the variety you describe.... odd "stuffing" for sure... fibrous.. hairy...

Horsehair you say? It's amazing what uses they found for that stuff.... They used to mix it into the plaster used on olde-fashioned plaster on lathe walls here in the states.

I'm glad it's not used so much any more.... I'm not fond of bald horses....


Larry "Boneman" Bone - wondering what they stuffed equestrian saddles with.....

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Chris on 9/3/2008 at 7:30:20 PM
Yes, Horsehair. In your bicycle seat. It works well.
Underneath the marvelous pure all wool carpeting in my last house, was horsehair carpet padding. It resists insects and mites, I was told. Not sure why it is no longer used but I suspect it was due to costs.

I replaced it with ultra expensive Karastan "Grande Suite" carpeting because to replace it with pure wool of the class and grade of what was put down in 1949 would have been many, many thousands of dollars. Prohibitivly expensive and the sad things is nobody hardly does it.

Oak stairway's, the workmanship, craftsnmanship, is no longer done, not like that. The agent and his wife stood stunned and quiet and he said, they don't build these like this anymore.
We are living in different times, cheap times.
The people that bought the house have torn it out to appreciate the full oak floors which is the style today.

I love the old Terry's extracoil saddles. The foam they use today rots and falls apart.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Larry "Boneman" Bone on 9/4/2008 at 9:34:20 AM
Many excellent points... and a memory that to this day still flabbergasts me.

Shortly after my Aunt's passing... we were cleaning out the olde family home on Staten Island, NY and in the process tearing out the carpeting in the living room.

Underneath was the quarter-sawn oak floor... with WALNUT TRIM INLAY....

In it's day... constructed in 1928 as it were... it was considered a standard floor.

My dad remembered it from when he was a boy... I remembered it vaguely from my very early childhood. To see it once again revealed..... was absolutely grand.

Horsehair.... considering that the quantity of horses there are now pursuant to how many there were 75 years ago... I can see that cost going up.

Not to mention... I'm sure in today's realm... it would be considered... "icky".


Larry "Boneman" Bone - A horse of another colour maybe?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Chris on 9/4/2008 at 6:17:47 PM
I confess to at first thinking it was icky as well. Larry, I think it is awesome that you are saving the old British bicycles keep up the excellent work!


   RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by rob on 9/6/2008 at 8:34:40 PM
hi ive heard that brooks can re cover an old saddle.
think i saw it on their website if your interested cio
Cheers Rob

   RE:RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Chris on 9/9/2008 at 6:30:06 PM
The fellows name is Tony Colgrave, he does expert restoration work on antique Brooks saddles.

   RE:MISC:   Mattress Saddle Replacement? posted by Alex on 9/20/2008 at 10:45:32 AM
Not sure if this is what your looking for but I did notice this from spookytoothcyles, these are the same kinds made today from india i.e. kwcycles brands. Spookytooth only has this in brown and not in black.,shop.product_details/category_id,51/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,288/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,113/vmcchk,1/