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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

MISC:   Cold days posted by: Oscar on 10/8/2000 at 3:11:01 PM
It was a cold day on the trail - the first cold day of the year. Most of the folks on the trail were walkers, bundled with hands in pockets and hunched over against a snappy wind. My time to the end of the trail was good, but for miles long stretches, I was the only rider.

There were some of the regulars: Moutain Bike Goggles Guy and Ponytail Running Man waved as we sped past each other. Old Western Flyer Man was there too, but I don't think he recognized me until I had long past. I haven't seen Blonde Woman in over a week, Homeless Mike must have moved on, and Early Morning Goatee Guy is long gone. (Maybe he shaved, though.)

I don't mind the cold, and I can handle wet pavement, but it's nice to have the regulars to say hey to. It amazes me how many people have already put their bikes away for the year.

   RE:MISC:   Cold days posted by Art on 10/8/2000 at 7:05:05 PM
In contrast, Oscar, today was the first day theat I felt fall in the air. Temperature wasn't breaking a hundred. I think it was actually down into the eighties. Now people are taking their bikes out to ride in the day, not just at 5 am. Bikes will start showing up at yard sales and swap meets that avoided the summer heat. Who knows what the snow birds will bring with them this year.

   RE:MISC:   Cold days posted by Wings on 10/9/2000 at 12:53:33 AM
Cold day here today! 75 degrees at 11am as the sun started to pound through. Since I was riding at a different time I did not see the regulars but the BMX kids were out and all yelled: "Cool bike!" One guy with his family on wheels yelled a warm greeting across the road. For me my rides change from 8:30 am to eventually 1pm so I can still enjoy the warmth of the sun. Too late in the afternoon I get the Too Cool Ocean breeze. It continues like this off and on through November --almost all year round! When it rains I just pedal in side = very dull!

Art, Are you in Texas?

   RE:MISC:   Cold days posted by sam on 10/9/2000 at 6:30:15 AM
O.K.,which one of you guys in Minnesota left the door open,it's 45 degrees in south Texas!!!!!

   RE:MISC:   Cold days posted by Fred on 10/9/2000 at 6:54:27 AM
I finally caught my tall son one day last week and had him hand a gaggle of bikes up to me to be stored in the loft of my garage until spring. I also moved six of my "goodies" out of the family room into the garage to make room for my daughter and our grandson who are visiting from Florida. Riding is about over for me here in the wilds of upstate NY. Yes for those of you who think all of NY is the city, it can get pretty rural up here 150 miles from that other place. It has been cold and rainey for a week up here. This morning it was 30 deg. with a light dusting of snow, Ugh. As soon as the leaves are down and out to the roadside I am going to scoot south. It will be another summer eeason with lots of biking for us in Florida where I have another gaggle of bikes. Its like seeing old friends after a long absence. I am taking 4 bikes down to sell. I paid on average about $25 for each and will be lucky to sell them for that in FL. My wife thinks I am crazy to haul bikes to FL but there are people who want the older bikes and I just can't dump a good bike even if it is an old Huffy 3 speed. I wish all of you could come down and ride with me in the warm winter sun.

   RE:MISC:   Cold days posted by Art on 10/9/2000 at 7:06:53 AM
Wings, I'm in Phoenix and it actually sprinkled on me on my commute in to work this morning. And the Cardinals won. And I must be dreaming.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by: Jimbo on 10/5/2000 at 10:01:48 PM
I have a question for you knowledgeable experts about two px-10s I have. One Problem is that the aluminum serial #s are gone from the underside of the bottom brackets. The first bike has the fancy nervex pro lugs and the usual silver plastic rear simplex derailer along with the the stronglight, mafac etc. parts which came on early seventies bikes, the only thing different from most of the bikes I've seen in magazines and books like it is that the reynolds 531 sticker is on the down tube between the lower lug and the shiffters. The other bike has the less fancy nervex lugs and the proper reynolds stickers and usual components for a early seventies bike but it doenst have a derailer hanger on the dropout, instead it has a seperate hanger like you see on a UO8. I've looked at the PX-10 web page a bunch of times but have never really got the jist of the matter. Heres's a trivia qestion. what 60's rock album was named after a british prime minister and a ten speed.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by KingKong on 10/6/2000 at 5:17:16 AM
I don't know anything about Peugeots and as a matter of fact wouldn't be able to even spell Peugeot without being about to cut and paste it. But I've got one with an internally geared Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub and twin thumb shifters. Does this sound original? Any idea on the year? It has chrome 'box' fenders.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by Keith on 10/6/2000 at 6:29:56 AM
KK: Cool. I think the 5-speed Strurmeys were date stamped like the rest with the month and date of manufacture. So the bike would date shortly after the date on the hub assuming it's original. Also, 50s Peugeot hub gear bikes typically had an oil hole in the bottom bracket. And, I gotta ask, is the Schwinn forum is still down?

     PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by John E on 10/6/2000 at 6:33:33 AM
Does it look as though the derailleur hanger was cut off,
or was it never there? As Russ Fitzgerald's PX-10 site
notes, there are more PX-10 wanna-be's than real PX-10s out
there. Read your 531 sticker carefully; my 1980 PKN-10E's
sticker says "3 tubes reinforces (butted)." Unless you have
a full Reynolds 531 tubeset (frame, forks, and stays), you
probably have something like a PR-10. Some people cut off
the derailleur hangers on French bikes because they
mistakenly believed they precluded the use of non-Simplex
derailleurs. With a little filing, I was able to hang a
SunTour Cyclone on my Peugeot, with excellent results.

   Schwinn forum posted by John E on 10/6/2000 at 6:35:14 AM
Keith (and anyone else interested) -- the Schwinn forum is
up and running and better than ever (although this forum is
still the best). Enjoy!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by racerrex on 10/6/2000 at 7:06:09 AM
the sturmey archer will have a date stamped on it-- yr mo--.the 5 speed hubs with double shifters (the S5) were made for a couple of years. I have one from 67. for more info see sheldon brown's website.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by Brian L. on 10/6/2000 at 10:28:12 AM
The Trivia answer is: "Disraeli Gears" (sp?). I think that Ginger Baker was involved, but I could be wrong.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by Tom Adams on 10/6/2000 at 10:41:48 AM
Disreali Gears was recorded by the group Cream that included not only Ginger Baker but Jack Bruce and (genuflecting) Eric Clapton. Cream was renowned for developing the free form side of rock and roll, breaking free from the AM conventions that all songs had to be 2:30 long. Cream played 10 minutes or more per song, and featured extended instrumental improvs. Was this artistic vision, musical virtuosity or some other great inspiration? No. At their first show, Cream was alloted 30 minutes of stage time, but as I recall Clapton putting it, "We only knew three songs as a group." Hence, each song was stretched to ten minutes. Thus is great art created!

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by KingKong on 10/6/2000 at 12:29:27 PM
Man you guys (generic for all genders) are great. I ask a question over my first coffee this morning and come back on my afternoon break and there are some answers..!

I'm aware of the S-A date code on the hub, though I forget the date on it and will check tonight. RacerX, is your S5 hub on a Peugeot?

I don't remember seeing anthing on the frame that looked filed off. (if that question was directed to me.) I'll look for an oil hole on the BB.

Thanks all,

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by racerrex on 10/6/2000 at 1:28:45 PM
The S5 hub I have is NOS and not on a bike. An interesting offer could put it in your hands. (No shifters)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PEUGEOT PX-10s posted by Jimbo on 10/6/2000 at 1:39:59 PM
The peugeot has the reynolds frame sticker that is the 531 beneath the reynolds (what Eugene Sloane calls the thoroughbred or aristocratic) at a 45 degree angle and also has the triangle stickers on the forks. It doesnt look like the derailer hanger was cut away. I thought it was a PX-10L or PX-10 super, which were both made for touring. It also has chrome stays and came with a brooks pro saddle. It has the aluminum serial # badge on the bottom bracket too. It also seems to have a smaller chain ring on the stronglight crank than my other PX-10s.

   it's a mystery to me posted by John E on 10/6/2000 at 7:30:24 PM
I cannot explain the lack of a derailleur hanger, but it's definitely a PX-10, given the diagonal 531 sticker and the chrome stays. I wonder if it was a European model designed to accomodate the buyer's choice of a fixed-gear, an internal hub, or a derailleur transmission. Sheldon could have used that frame for his "PX-7" (Nexus 7-speed) project bike.

   RE:it's a mystery to me posted by Keith on 10/10/2000 at 9:51:48 AM
You should be able to identify a simplex droput even if it was cut and filed -- it will still say simplex, and will be noticeably thicker where the quick release fits into the droput. This would distinguish it from the cheapo droputs, which were uniformly thin and plain aside from holes for attaching mudguards. Aslo, the bottom bracket oil hole would have a nice little metal cap.

AGE / VALUE:   80's Univega posted by: Brian L. on 10/5/2000 at 2:00:19 PM
I have an 80's (my guess) vintage Univega sport/tourer hanging in my basement that I salvaged from the side of the road. I vacilate between fixing it up and donating it. At present I lean towards the former. It is a very pretty dark maroon/wine color with white piping. Can't remember the model name in script and I'm at work as I write this. Lugged frame, nice, if plain joint work and the geometry looks like it leans more toward sport than touring.

My questions are these: 1) Are Univega's Italian? I read that somewhere below, but I thought they were manufactured in Japan. Italian-owned, Japanese manufacture? 2)Tubeset says "4130" what is this stuff? I assume double butted. Apologies again, I don't remember if the tubing maker was I.D.ed on the label.

Thanks for the input.

    80's Univega posted by John E on 10/5/2000 at 4:40:13 PM
If I recall correctly, Italvega was a short-lived Italian
brand. Production transferred to Japan, and the bikes were
rechristened Univega. Your 4130 tubing is decent,
plain-gauge CroMo. The bike is probably a good beater or
commuter, but I would not advise investing much money into
fixing it up.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   80's Univega posted by Keith on 10/6/2000 at 6:41:13 AM
According to Sheldon Brown, Univega was a brand name owned by Lawee, Inc., which used to import Motobecane. More recenly it was bought by Derby, which also owned Ralreigh. It was made in Japan, mostly by Miyata (which makes freat bikes). A friend at work recently brought his in for me to look at -- it was a budget touring model with Suntour Mountaintech Ds, Sugino half-step triple, and cantilever brakes. But the frame was not full chromoly (hi-ten rear triangle), and the shifters were downtube instead of bar-end, so I think it was a low to mid-range model from when dedicated touring bikes were "in" in the 80s. I agree with John that it's not worth sinking money into it, unless it's really a higher end bike, as in the tubing is triple-butted and the equipment is Suntour Superbe, Cyclone, or Shimano Dura Ace or 600.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   80's Univega posted by Brian L. on 10/6/2000 at 10:31:41 AM
Thanks for the info. I wondered if there wasn't a Univega/Italvega connection. Isn't/wasn't Italvega also an auto design studio or short lived brand of sports/GT cars? Any relation?

How about Miyata? Can someone please clarify the relationship with Koga Miyata, which is/was Dutch. I have seen great bikes under both brand names: triple-butted, splined tube jobs with nicely filed lugs.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   80's Univega posted by Keith on 10/6/2000 at 11:13:18 AM
I believe Koga Miyata is a European importer of Japanese Miyatas. If you scrounge around with a search engine, you'll find a site that sells a few NOS lugged, triple-butted Miyata frames. The site also gives a brief history of Miyata, which is no fly-by-night company. It goes back to pre-1900, and at this point, it's outlasted Raleigh and Schwinn. They draw their own tubing. I'm repeating myself, but my wife's early-80s Dura-Ace equiped Miyata Pro is better than a lot of so-called top-end European stuff I've seen.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   80's Univega posted by Keith on 10/6/2000 at 11:16:34 AM
P.S. Here it is -- Koga-Miyata is a partnership between the Dutch company Koga and Japanese company Miyata. I think that bacially Koga designs stuff, and Miyata makes it for them.

   80's Univega posted by Jonathan on 10/17/2000 at 10:52:40 PM
Interesting. I have a Univega MTB that's made in Taiwan...I think; last time I looked at the head tube.
It has a biopace chainwheel which is OK for climbing, but for flat-runs, my knee (right) feels sore after a few miles.
The bike is tough enough for my off-road riding. The official name is Univega
Alpina Uno; as painted on the top-tube.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Paramount posted by: Art on 10/3/2000 at 10:12:12 PM
Here is the sccoop on the Paramount I just got. It came with the original 1954 paperwork and includes a letter from 1977 from Schwinn to the then owner confirming the specifics of the bike. It is a Tourist model with 27" wheels built by Oscar Wastyn. What is on the bike as components differ in some ways from the original specs. Here is what I have. The paint is an older repaint, the '77 letter tells the owner to mask off the original decals when painting it the original color gold, which he did. The paint job, while not professional, has an aged look to it and works pretty well with the decals. On the seat tube are three decals, the traditional oval Schwinn decal, a decal of a top hat in a circle, and an AS decal that is circled by the words Chrome Molybdium. The words Schwinn Paramount on the down tube are only on the top of the tube and are in script rather than the block letters I've seen. Brakes and brake levers are the older Schwinn Built scripted ones and I believe they are original. Mattress saddle says Schwinn approved, not sure if that is original. The crank is not original, the spindle axle is too long to be correct and the steel crank and arms aren't consitant with the specs. Rear derailleur and down tube shifter are old Simplex Tour de France. Rear hub is a Bayliss Wylie with three speed cog, rim is a lightweight Dunlop. Front hub is a BSA with Rigida superchromatix. Tourist style bars, stem and seat post are older but have no marks on them. The bike has older chrome fenders and the original aluminum chain guard. Since I have no way of knowing how this custom bike was originally built up, I'm not sure which way to go. Any suggestions? I do want to make it a servicable commuter. If anybody has any of these parts, it may help me decide which way to go with it. I need a Schwinn Paramount head badge. Screw holes are on the side. I would like to find 50's vintage front and rear racks. The original crank is speced as Schwinn Racing cranks, 3 pin mounting. I need those. I have older pedals, seatposts, stems, and bars that are the right vintage. I don't know what to do about a wheel set. Specs were extruded alloy or Schwinn Tubular. Schwinn Puff tires(?) Hubs options were stiff(?), free wheeling, or Sturmey Archer.
I know this is a long post, but I'm pretty excited about what I have and could use any suggestions or help you readers have to offer. Thanks.

   Schwinn Paramount posted by John E on 10/4/2000 at 6:38:18 AM
1) Nice find!!!!
2) I assume a "stiff" rear hub is simply a fixed-gear, as on a track back. Do I read correctly that you currently have a 6-speed close-ratio half-step transmission with "suicide" derailleurs (stick shift front, normal-low "into the spokes" rear)?
3) I have reservations about using this bike as a daily driver, unless you have an easy commute with no significant hills. To me, the difference between a 1960s bike and a 1950s bike is akin to that between a Ford Model A and a Model T. You can drive a Model A safely on today's roads, because it has four-wheel brakes, a 55mph top speed, a sliding gear transmission, and fairly conventional controls. The T has two-wheel mechanical brakes, a 35mph top speed, and pedal-controlled two-speed planetary gearset (talk about "suicide shifters"!). Having said all that, I do admit it would be fun and classy to show up for work on that Paramount! Let us know what you do with the bike.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Paramount posted by Keith on 10/4/2000 at 6:47:10 AM
Great find. According to Waterford, only 1000 Paramounts were made during the entire Wastyn era, between 1938 and 1958. I passed one by once -- $350 complete -- and I'm still kicking myself. Wastyn era Paramount collecting is a lofty and specialized matter, well beyond my limited knowledge. But of course there are special experts around -- I'd contact Michael Kone of Bicycle Classics to ask who is really up on the Wastyn bikes. Warerford may also help. I have seen ads in books that would give an idea of specs, but I also think they were 100% custom special order, so they were probably set up with whatever the buyer wanted, although it seems the six-day/track bikes were fairly standardized and, as you probably know, were equiped with lots of Schwinn parts. America may not have been the hotbed of lightweight development in the 30s to the 50s, but Frank Schwinn certainly kept the flame alive with the Paramount.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Paramount posted by Keith on 10/4/2000 at 7:02:04 AM
P.S. I agree 100% with John that this is not commuter material. There are lots and lots of good-performing bikes for daily thrashing out there that are not as rare or valuable. This Paramount is worth preserving. Save it for special occassion rides.

   RE:Schwinn Paramount posted by Art on 10/4/2000 at 7:03:53 AM
The current gearing on this bike is just a three speed. There is no front derailleur of any kind. I thought stiff meant the same thing as you do John. I do have a faily easy, fairly flat commute and it would be an occassional ride, on a Friday, like taking out the old Ford for a Sunday drive. At the same time I want to be safe enough and sturdy enough to get there. I'm hoping I can find some of the parts I need, and what I find will probably determine how I build it up. Like Keith said, the Tourist was a 100% custom so as long as it is correct for the early fifties, almost anything could have been used on the original.

   RE:RE:Schwinn Paramount posted by ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 10/4/2000 at 8:38:09 AM
Not every day does someone tell us they found a Watson made machine. Excellent find, Bravo, well done jolly good show old boy

   Watsyn posted by John E on 10/4/2000 at 11:58:12 AM
I had not made the connection between Schwinn and Watsyn. I
saw a great-looking late 1960s(?) Watsyn Custom, complete
with TA cyclo-touriste half-step/grannie triple chainring,
on a Los Angeles Wheelmen ride about 30 years ago. The paint
and metal finishing were stunning.

   Wastyn posted by John E on 10/4/2000 at 12:01:51 PM
Oops -- Wastyn is correct ... Sorry about the dyslexic
moment there ...

   RE:RE:RE:Schwinn Paramount posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/5/2000 at 3:58:39 PM
I would hang it up on the wall with a little card telling what is is. Too rare to ride, Keith is right on.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Paramount posted by Keith on 10/6/2000 at 7:36:58 AM
Art -- I saw a Wastyn P on Ebay yesterday -- it was bid up past $1,200 and the reserve still hadn't been met. I'm sure you already realize this, but your Paramount is a serious collectable, a big cut above the typical Campy 70s -80s bikes we discuss here. I don't want to beat it to death, but I'd either clean it up, or if it's rough send it to Waterford for new paint and decals (since you already indicate it's not original finish), then wax it 3 times, and then, as Chrisopher Robin suggests, hang it with a plaque and period jersey, and ride it, if at all, on dry, sunny days. Then wax it again.

AGE / VALUE:   RALEIGH RECORD posted by: Jeff on 10/2/2000 at 6:58:50 PM
Just acquired a Raleigh Record. The serial number on the bike is DA524827. It has aluminum handlebars & steering stem, and aluminum Weinmann center-pull brakes, and 27 x 1-1/4 tires on steel wheels. It has a Simplex derailer. Does anyone know how to date this bike, and what type of value it might have. Everything works - it just needs some cleaning up. I'm used to riding English Roadsters, so a 10-speed is new to me. Is this thing worth keeping?

Thanks, Jeff

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   RALEIGH RECORD posted by Keith on 10/3/2000 at 8:35:39 AM
he Raleigh Record is worth keeping as a fun rider, for short club rides, erands, etc. The Record was the lowest end model of Raleighs line of lightweights, below the Gran Prix, Super Course, Competition, International, and Professional, The frame was plain luged steel, like that used for the 3-speeds. I've seen them equiped with either Simplex Prestige or Huret Alvit in the early 70s, and later with Suntour. In my opinion it is not collectable because it was low end and was imported in large numbers during the early 70s "bike boom." An absolutely pristine one might be worth $50. Maybe. Don't sink money into restoration.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Swiss/French bottom brackets????????? posted by: Robert on 10/2/2000 at 5:40:39 PM
How do you know if you have the now obsolete bottom brackets that you can no longer get parts for.
I bought a Peugot? mountain bike and want to know if it has the this now unavailable part.

Could use your info on this.

   I think... posted by Oscar on 10/3/2000 at 12:51:47 PM
I think that Peugeot stopped using French threaded bottom brackets in the early 80's. This would be before the birth of production mountain bikes. It's probably English.

Some bottom brackets have the treading type stamped onto it. Look for something that would indicate the tpi (threads per inch). Sheldon Brown's very informative site would be able to tell you what the tpi for English and French bottom brackets is. See www.sheldonbrown.com

   Swiss/French bottom brackets posted by John E on 10/3/2000 at 4:53:21 PM
I think Peugeot's mountain bikes were made in Japan and therefore have English-threaded BBs. If your BB cups are stamped "1.37 x 24TPI," they are English; if "35mm x 1," they are French (clockwise-tightening fixed cup) or Swiss (counterclockwise-tightening fixed cup). Since 1.375" is almost exactly 35mm, Swiss and English differ only in thread pitch (25.4 TPI versus 24 TPI). If your cups are unmarked, remove the adjustable one and try to screw in a known English cup. If it starts resisting after a few turns, you have a metric BB.

By the way, you may not want to try this at home, but I forced English-threaded Sugino BB cups into the Swiss BB of my 1980 Peugeot and have ridden it that way for 5 years.

Although Swiss and French cups are relatively scarce, Sheldon, Loose Screws, etc. still have some.

   RE:Swiss/French bottom brackets posted by Robert on 10/3/2000 at 8:27:32 PM
Thanks Oscar and John!!

   RE:Swiss/French bottom brackets posted by Robert on 10/5/2000 at 7:20:14 PM
Your info is correct. This Peugeot MTB has an English BB. Makes life a whole lot simpler. Thanks again for the info.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   New lightweight vs. old safety & comfort posted by: Grant on 10/2/2000 at 12:19:52 PM
If you want a real shock look at this 19lb. lightweight made it
1893. Super comfort from its hammock seat and under 20 lbs, soft
soldered steel tube frame, 19th century technology and all.
What could you do with modern steel and aluminum components?
How about a super sturdy, comfortable road bike under 15 lbs?
Check out the Dursley -Pederson and don't overlook the links at
the bottom of the page.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   New lightweight vs. old safety & comfort posted by Oscar on 10/2/2000 at 1:11:18 PM
Replace the single quote character before lalleman with a tilde (the squiggle next to the 1 key)

There's a lady who rides a Pederson around town here. Very classy.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   New lightweight vs. old safety & comfort posted by Oscar on 10/2/2000 at 1:43:20 PM
It looks like a cross between an English Roadster and a circus tent. Next time I see that lady on the Pederson, I'll ask to try out her bike. (I complimented her bike last time I saw her. She acted like no one had ever noticed her bike before.)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   New lightweight vs. old safety & comfort posted by Keith on 10/3/2000 at 9:02:57 AM
It was a relolutionary bike and was used to win many races in its time. At least two different companies still make it. Also, the more recent "space frame" Moultons use the same concept. Think of the amount of time to braze all of those tubes!!!!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   New lightweight vs. old safety & comfort posted by sam on 10/3/2000 at 11:28:14 AM
Can't wait for one of thost to show up at Goodwill!!!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   New lightweight vs. old safety & comfort posted by Grant on 10/3/2000 at 4:46:20 PM
If you want a brand new DP frameset they are available for
945 Euros or $830 US. Size and color to choice.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   New lightweight vs. old safety & comfort posted by Michael on 10/5/2000 at 9:33:34 AM
I saw a new example of the design with polished rosewood rims and lots of shiny brass fitings outside a london bike shop. It has that "I want one" quality.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Columbus Fall Challange Stories posted by: Keith on 10/2/2000 at 10:22:09 AM
Okay, 'cause you asked, just a few. It was a perfect weekend. The hills were stunning, as in I felt stunned when I reached the tops! The scenery was awesome -- leaves were starting to turn, lots of variety. One guy put everyone else to shame -- he rode a coaster brake one-speed with a Schwinn Varsity frame, steel rims, fat tires. He went up the hills slalom-style -- weaving from side to side, and gaining only a few feet with each pass. I did well time-wise, not among the fastest or the slowest. I passed titanium and carbon, but since about rides it that doesn't mean much. I saw only two other 70s vintage bikes: a Schwinn Paramount P-15, with Campy triple, and an old Schwinn World Voyager. Also a handful of 80s lugged steel bikes. It was mostly titanium, carbon, and aluminum out there. I saw the aftermath of a pretty bad crash --luckily the rider wasn't hurt too badly -- cut on head and dislocated shoulder. This year the ride went DOWN "Savage Hill Road." You can easily go 50mph coasting. One problem -- there's a stop sign at the botton. The rider lost control and wiped out. It may sound crazy, but I put a brand new Brooks B-17 on my Mercian the day before the ride. I put some Proofide on it, rode it to work and back Friday, and it was comfortable right out of the box, I swear. Maybe only the Pro is tough to break in. Along with recently added cable housings and bar tape, it made the Mercian look like a new bike. The Mercian performed wonderfully. I received several comliments on it, and some noticed my old wool club jersey (I also had wool shorts). I saw a lot of roadside problems. A friend of mine with a new Waterford had his front Shimano Ultegra derailleur jam into his chainrings and the chain broke while he was riding on a very bumpy road. Some of the roads were very rugged -- rougher and bumpier than normal chip and seal. Some of the climbs and decents were on these roads. Oner some I felt as if the handlebars were going to be vibrated out of my hands. Decents are scarier to me since the recent, untimely death of Saturn Team member Nichole Reinhart, who my daughter and I met and watched race in Wendy's Classic series. She hit a pothole on a decent and hit a tree. May she rest in peace.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Columbus Fall Challange Stories posted by Brian L. on 10/2/2000 at 12:07:57 PM

Sounds like you had an awesome ride. I love my Mercian as well and it was my number one bike until I got my Marinoni. They look incredible, the craftsmanship is great and they are completely undervalued, as are most Brit bikes in comparison to their Italian contemporaries (with a few exceptions for wacky, weird and rare like Bates). My one complaint about my Mercian is also a positive aspect: the looong chainstays make for a stable, cushy ride, but they seem to affect shifting performance. I've eliminated other factors and that is the only thing I can pin it on.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Columbus Fall Challange Stories posted by Brian L. on 10/2/2000 at 12:10:22 PM
I forgot to add, one of the consistent top finishers in RAMROD (Ride Around Mt. Rainer in One Day), one of the top NW rides, 150 miles, 10,000+ elevation gain, is a gent who always rode a 24"-wheeled single-speed bmx bike. Talk about humbling.

   Uphill with Granny posted by Oscar on 10/2/2000 at 1:02:39 PM
Illinois is so flat, if you spill a glass of marbles, they will pretty much stay where you dropped it Here in the flatlands, the steepest climb I’ve encountered can be handled with a 40 front– 28 rear combination. . How much used did you get out of your small crank ring? Would I wind up like the fellow on the single-speed?

   RE:Uphill with Granny posted by Keith on 10/3/2000 at 8:47:50 AM
Granny. I'm just learning it -- when best to use it, which rear cog to pick, etc. I used it on the steepest climbs and liked it a lot. On most climbs I used a 38 front x 28 or 26 rear. I saw plenty of riders -- really strong folks -- lumber up the steepest climbs in a standard 39 front x 28 or 26 rear. But they were crawling. I actually passed quite a few of them by sitting down and spinning, which I think is more efficient though not as macho. You could probably do it with a 40 front x 28 rear, but the soft tissue in your knees might pay the price at some point. Aside from the Southeast quadrent of Ohio, the rest is as you describe Illinios, flat as a pancake (with rare exceptions). BTW, my granny triple is completely jury-rigged from a discarded Suntour mountain bike crank, with a weird 26/38/52, that people say won't work, but it does.

   Shouldn't work posted by Oscar on 10/3/2000 at 12:57:44 PM
From what I've read (in an old Rivendell Reader) your triple shouldn't work. It's not recommended to have more than a 24-tooth difference between the largest and smallest rings. I guess you've proven that wrong.

   triple chainring size spreads posted by John E on 10/3/2000 at 5:04:16 PM
For those of us who know not to cross-chain, the 24-tooth maximum spread recommendation is probably overly conservative, and he is only two teeth over the limit. I have adopted a 48-40-24 / 13-26 "Alpine over crossover" system on my mountain bike, which puts me right at the official "limit," but it works beautifully.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Columbus Fall Challange Stories posted by Keith on 10/4/2000 at 6:55:56 AM
For what it's worth, the rear derailleur is a lowly Shimano RSX, which I got new from Nashbar for about $15. It wraps miles of chain. With 26/38/52, I have to sacrifice 26 rear x 13 front, but that's really not much of a sacrifice. It not only works, but works well, quietly, and even under lots of stress. Ugh!

AGE / VALUE:   Lambert?? posted by: Gordon on 10/1/2000 at 7:41:51 PM
I was visiting a guy who pulled this bike out of his shed for me to look at. I'm a balloon tire person so the bike didn't do much for me, but I was wondering if anyone might be familiar with it. It was a 15 speed with a Crane derail. The decals on the frame said "handcrafted for Lambert Bike Co. England". It also repeated that on some bronze looking overlays on the handlebars. It had bar end shifters and centerpull brakes. Quick change seat post adjuster and skewer hubs front and rear. According to the owner it was a titanium frame but I didn't see anything on the bike to back that up. Anyone have any knowledge of this bike and possible value? He wanted to sell it to me in the worst way. It needs tires and cables. The paint isn't great but might get by with touching up (it is white).

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Lambert?? posted by Brian L. on 10/2/2000 at 5:29:17 AM
Lamberts were not titanium, but did come with alloy fork known as the "death fork" for their tendency to break. Check out www.cyclesdeoro.com under their vintage bike web page and you will find a detailed history of the marque. Possibly worth buying if the seller wants $25 or so and you promise to replace the fork (if original).

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Lambert?? posted by Keith on 10/2/2000 at 7:02:56 AM
I remember when they came out -- everyone was impressed with the low weight. But when stories of broken frames and forks got around, interest dried up. If it's mint it may have very nominal value as an oddity, but maybe not even that -- unlike a low-end Japanese bike of the period, it's not even worth fixing even as a rider. The long-cage derailluer might be worth a few dollars, though, if it's perfect.

   ref: Dancing Chain posted by John E on 10/3/2000 at 5:08:04 PM
I, too, remember being impressed by the light weight, but if you read the Lambert paragraph in "The Dancing Chain," you will not want to risk your life on that fork. However, since most frame failures are benign (unlike fork failures!), I suppose you could replace the fork and enjoy the bike.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   $10.00 Louison Bobet posted by: hjfl on 10/1/2000 at 5:15:25 PM
I am looking for info on a bike I bought at a garage sale this weekend. The bike is a louison Bobet , mixte frame , french , I believe about 1960. Unmarked alloy bars and steel stem. Normandy hubs and MM atom quick release. Huret shifters and derailers. Brake levers unmarked, Racer centerpull calipers(mafac?), Steel Nervar cranks, Triple front chainring , lyotard pedals, Eua stamped in bottom bracket.Also bought a Fiorelli from the same sale , the seller said he bought them both around 1960 , but he told me several things about the Fiorelli that I know are not correct, so I do not know how much to believe about the Bobet. Any place on the web with a picture? Will answer all email with regard to this bike. Lets compare bikes. I know the previous owner changed some of the components on this bike probably around 1980.

   check the archives posted by John E on 10/1/2000 at 6:53:35 PM
Check the September archives for a good Bobet thread. Nice find for that price!

   52 and 42 chainrings for 128mm BCD posted by John E on 10/1/2000 at 6:59:28 PM
If you have 5-bolt Nervar cranks with a 128mm BCD on the two outer rings, I have a 52T and a 42T ring that will fit. Also, someone else told me that 130mm BCD rings will often work on Nervar cranks, which opens up all kinds of gearing possibilities.

   RE:52 and 42 chainrings for 128mm BCD posted by ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 10/3/2000 at 10:20:59 AM
Louison Bobet is mentioned in: The Dancing Chain
Does your Bobet have the front and rear racks and the aluminum fenders?

AGE / VALUE:   Derailur with a twist grip? Cool! posted by: ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 9/30/2000 at 8:35:58 AM
I noticed this junky Sears bike had a Shimano Lark 5 derailur with a twist grip! This uses two cables and is a five speed set up. Neat! The Martha Stewart in me kicked in, I bought up all the Fire King Jade-Ite and then moved in for the bike! I have never seen a derailur with a twist grip from this time period. The bike is from the 70's Now it is common place.The coming of winter means the cars have to come in and the bikes put away.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Derailur with a twist grip? Cool! posted by Gary Main on 9/30/2000 at 9:19:22 AM
i am sure that twin cable idea was a flash in the pan, i also have one, see below. if your considering fixing yours up, i have a ladies model huffy with all parts functioning, looks good and rideable i would take 35 dollars for, you pick up.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Derailur with a twist grip? Cool! posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/3/2000 at 4:44:47 PM
He is right! Todays derailur twist grips are single cable!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Derailur with a twist grip? Cool! posted by Michael on 10/5/2000 at 9:36:03 AM
twin-cable twist grips have made a comeback. I've seen one example from an MTB trick component co.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Derailur with a twist grip? Cool! posted by Gary on 10/6/2000 at 11:53:32 AM
what a small world. i sold my huffy twin cable to a regular customer, it was loaded with goodies, nice seat, etc. made his day. So today after i come back from lunch, in my Bike Drop-off pile, sets a huffy ladies twin cable, that made my last one look like a goodwill bike. its mint! AND a 20 in girls schwinn, like new. Its easy to do, just become known as the place to discard bikes, and one or 2 times a month, strip them, put the parts in tubs, and donate the frames to recycle org, or recumbent builders.

AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by: Gary Main on 9/29/2000 at 6:48:27 PM
WOuld anyone care to speculate on the future collectibility
of older road bikes? i have been hanging some nice stuff up in back, and now i ask myself IS IT WORTH IT? i have a Motobecane, lots of Schwinns, several real nice FUJI, a Trek 1200, a Ross, and lots of others, i get them free usually, although i invested in the Trek.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Brian L. on 9/29/2000 at 7:26:28 PM
None of the bikes that you mention sound like they would garner you any real dinaro either now or in the future. The exceptions might be the Motobecane (emphasis on might, at some point in future) and certain Schwinns (Paramounts, 6-day racers and other track bikes or vintage fat-tire cruisers). Fuji made some beautiful bikes, but no one seems inclined to offer much. What are some of the other bikes? Post a list if you are interested in selling.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Art on 9/29/2000 at 8:25:52 PM
It's hard to know what you have from your descriptions. What kind of components do they have, what kind of saddles, racks? Sometimes the parts are worth more than the bikes. Unfortunately, like Brian said, these bikes probably aren't worth a lot. Future collectability is always a crap shoot but one of the things that I have learned is that higher end bikes tend to hold (and appreciate) their value more than any other bike. Another thing that seems to effect collectibility is if a person wants a specific bike that you have, even if it is a low end junker. They may have had one like it in college and now are willing to pay to have one again. One can always get lucky and find a high end bike for free, but there is such a glut of low end bikes out there that they will probably be around for little money for a long time. Keep looking though, these pages are filed with stories of guys finding some great bikes in alleys and junk piles.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Gary Main on 9/29/2000 at 10:16:04 PM
Well guys i worked in a bike shop at 18 and loved it. In this same town, i now have bikes i sold and repaired myself.
i started my own to avoid heavy mechanical labor, did that no thanks. So i am always working on some kind of bike. i have bikes in most all these categories. out of the 120 bikes i am holding, maybe 35 are holding for speculation. let me see, 65 stingray junior, 71 schwinn hollywood, the Motobecane i beleive is a liscenced product, maybe 10 older schwinn 10 speeds. 1 front freewheel schwinn ladies 10,
Evans ladies bike my guess 30s flat fenders, late 50s western auto mens 26, 71 murray ladies ballooner near mint,
Mongoose LoopTail, Schwinn thrasher, ladies Hawthorne, late 50s, Huffy Eldrado Ladies, Prewar2 type Western Flyer ladies, Disk Brake Huffy 10, Ross Apollo Racer, Raleigh Ladies 3sp Coasterbrake, 2030 frame nice. old Tandem, unknown, looks 50s by the bars on it, 71 Schwinn Racer with coasterbrake, a small group of various real nice 10 speeds mens and ladies, ladies Galaxy flyer, some 3speeds. 71 AMF 3sp mens, nice, Twin cable grip shift huffy ladies 5sp, had one of the first Hiawatha Mountain bikes in mint condition, but some guy talked me out if this summer. Whats cool guys is that i am on the longest rails to trails in Mich, on the north end, last paved stretch, I rent these devils for 5 bucks a day each, pick your model, and there is all types here. 27 miles round trip, they are paying for their own storage. I like this forum, and will be posting bikes here more often. i have often wondered why i have gotten so many Mint Fuji bikes in here, maybe 8 this summer.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Grant on 9/30/2000 at 9:05:13 AM
When they were tearing apart old Schwinn Phantoms to make beach cruisers who would have believed they
would be worth money some day? When they were tearing apart Orang Krates to make BMX bikes who would have
believed they were worth saving? Your bikes may be worth something someday. After everyone throws theirs
in the dump and yours are the last ones left.

   only the rare bikes will be collectibles posted by John E on 9/30/2000 at 1:44:46 PM
Last month, someone sold a 1956 Peugeot road touring bike for $510 on eBay. It was in original, but not quite pristine, condition. Its Simplex transmission (reverse-shift split-cable rear derailleur and direct-stick front shifter) was obsolete at best, suicidal at worst. I doubt my 1980 "almost a PX-10" PKN-10E, my wife's 1973 U-08, or any other mass-produced bike will ever be worth that much. However, a top-of-the-line Colnago or de Rosa, or twenty years from now, a Rivendell, might fetch a good price.

   Bike Rental Business posted by Oscar on 10/1/2000 at 9:12:42 AM
How's the bike rental business? I always smile when I hear of a practical use of old bikes. At $5 a pop-your pick, it sounds like a great deal for your customers.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by gary on 10/1/2000 at 7:32:39 PM
well like i said right now they just pay their own way, but its my first year, i will hit it hard next year, i have just built inventory to use for this biz, amongst reselling used machines. BTW i have some real cool mountain bikes to choose from, and a few shop built cross trainers, i hope to cover the interest range. I am considering putting in a range of decent, road machines, like that trek 1200, or the motobecane, Fuji. i dont let those out to just anyone with 5

   Bottom line posted by Keith on 10/2/2000 at 7:15:04 AM
A few absolute truths: 1. Most derailleur-equiped road bikes from the 70s and 80s are NOT "collectable" or valuable of cash they would generate in a sale. 2. The ones that are collectable are top-end models from the most highly-respected shops. 3. With respect to the collectable top-end road bikes, the market and demand are thin -- thinner than for ballooners or krates, which appeal to many, because the lightweight road bikes are nostalgia items for far fewer people. 4. Everything will be collectable some day, so if you have the space and want to hold onto your low-end Fuji or Raleigh Record, it will be worth something in 50-100 years.

   RE:Bottom line posted by Keith on 10/2/2000 at 11:57:29 AM
I meant to say, "not valuable in terms of cash they would generate in a sale." There are lists and articles to help identify #2. Basically, its the absolute best stuff that was made in Italy (Bianchi, Cinneli, Colnago, De Rosa, Masi), France (Peugeot, Gitane, Motobacane), England (Bob Jackson, Mercian, Hetchins, Raleigh Professional) and the U.S. (Masi, again, Witcomb, Schwinn Paramount). It would have a frame built with name-brand, double butted steel alloy tubing, such as Reynolds or Columbus (look for a sticker or the remains of one). In general, it would have Campagnolo Nouvo Record or Super Record equipment, though a select few might have the very best Simplex or Huret. Note that big names like Raleigh, Peugeot, and Motobacane also built pretty crummy low-end models that won't be worth more than $20 in our lifetime, so don't get too excited when you see these names. Only top-end. Everything else -- go ahead and rent it for $5. (If the saddles are narrow I'll bet they pass buy the road bikes anyway.)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Eric Amlie on 10/2/2000 at 2:02:22 PM
You just never know what's valuable to the one person out there. That's what's great about the internet. Personally, I will pay top dollar for a '62 or '63 Schwinn Superior. I'll bet there are not many out there, and I'll also bet that not many want one.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Keith on 10/3/2000 at 9:00:46 AM
It is interesting that every s often a Ballooner guy will discover lightweights by accident or whatever. But I think mostly the audience consists of the people who rode them in the 70s or 80s, and either want the bike they had or the one they dreamed of back then. And yes, there's an "Ebay lottery" factor in this - recently a crummy women's Raleigh Gran Prix went for lots of money on Ebay, though I'm at a loss to explain it. That's true of every object in existence -- someone on ebay may pay a mint for it. The Superior was cool, as was the even nicer Paramount of the same era. Along with the World Traveler, Frank's attempt at a Raleigh 3-speed. But heavier, sturdier, and more expensive.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by tim on 10/5/2000 at 1:37:55 AM
in reply to the question of value of these road bikes of yesteryear... It's so easy to write them off as not having any significant monetary value (debatable) The real value is in the pleasure of owning a peice of history, maybe a part of "your" history, (or someone elses)a bike that dreams were made of...for a young boy or girl looking at that bike in a bikeshop window...Or possibly a appreciation for a type of bike construction that is rapidly becoming a thing of the past..."craftwork"...(or maybe just love of bikes) Value, though frequently described as "dollar value" comes no where near the joy that the above yeilds ...and i just thought i'd add my two cents...

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Keith on 10/5/2000 at 10:40:51 AM
That's great -- save 'em all if you've got the room. Every old bike could be someone's dream bike. Unfortunately, I don't have the space, and low-end bikes are sold, given away, or stripped of parts and pitched. So if any of you are willing to pay the shipping cost for the rusty pink girl's Murray 10-speed my neighbor gives me, just let me know!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Road Bikes posted by Gary on 10/5/2000 at 5:51:42 PM
for sure on the ugly cheap stuff, i part them and donate the steel to the loval recycler. BUT these are real nice units, and dont need anything but ridden

AGE / VALUE:    posted by: Schultzie on 9/29/2000 at 3:07:54 PM
Is anyone out there familiar with bikes made under the label of Turin of Chicago? I recently picked up a large frame model with Mafac "Racer" brakes, Simplex derailleurs,aluminum rims and a lightweight frame with fancy lugs. The decal says "Turin" with a cool logo combining the Chicago Picasso sculpture framed by stylized handlebars.Any information would be much appreciated.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by hjfl on 9/29/2000 at 4:23:18 PM
Turin is a bike shop in the north suburbs of Chicago , I believe in Evanston.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Please wish me luck posted by: Keith on 9/29/2000 at 7:58:44 AM
This weekend I'm riding the "Columbus Fall Challenge" -- 220 miles Saturday and Sunday through the hollows ("hollers" locally) and over the ridges of the foothills of SE Ohio. Coming to terms with my 42-year-old and rather delicate knees, I've prepared by changing the 13-22 on my Mercian to a 13-28, with a 26t on the front. One out-of-towner described CFC in a posting as "brutal, brutal, brutal." I'll let you know if I survive.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Please wish me luck posted by Keith on 9/29/2000 at 11:30:35 AM
P.S. The steepest and longest climbs are on roads with descriptive names, like "Savage," "Revenge," and -- so Ohio -- "Chicken Coop." People do come in from out of state for this. Maybe I could host some of you guys here and we could do it together with vintage style next year.

   go for it, Keith!! posted by John E on 9/30/2000 at 8:13:08 PM
I was half your age the last time I did anything that ambitious -- the Los Angeles Wheelmen Double Century (12 hours, 18 minutes). Although we took the coastal route instead of tackling the hills of Malibu, one guy from Kansas observed, "I have never seen so many %$%@$^#& hills in my life."

   RE:go for it, Keith!! posted by Wings on 10/1/2000 at 10:26:11 PM
When I was about 13 yrs old I rode my old Iver Johnson coater brake one speed from Culver City to La Canada and made it home for dinner! That had to be close to 100 miles. It didn't phase me! I think I would feel it now!
We may not hear from Keith for awhile -- he may be too tired to type.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Please wish me luck posted by Keith on 10/2/2000 at 6:56:54 AM
It was beautiful, breathtaking (in more than one way), and truly a challenge. Some of the hills were obscenely steep - little township roads with rough chip and seal -- one local who was watching the ride from his front yard yelled, "is anyone of you an engineer -- this is too steep!" I'd tell a lot of stories about this ride, but I don't want to take up too much room here. The old Mercian with the expanded triple performed perfectly, and I did not feel a bit disadvantaged among the Lightspeeds, Trek OCLVs, Merlins, Sevens, etc. Best of all my legs worked too. I plan to do it again next year.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Please wish me luck posted by Oscar on 10/2/2000 at 8:44:06 AM

Go ahead and tell us a story or two. It sounds like a great ride. Maybe even an idea for next year (255 miles from Chicago to Cincinnati).

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by: Keith on 9/28/2000 at 11:09:28 AM
I had lunch with a friend who rides a trek 5500. He's gone through two carbon frames so far -- came unbonded. One came unbonded at the downtube-headtube joint while he was riding. He's now talking about getting a lugged steel frame. Good idea!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Keith on 9/29/2000 at 6:49:13 AM
P.S. He's also worn out two sets of STI shifters. It's crazy how you can't just buy the little gear that wears out -- gotta buy the whole lever.

   the throwaway society posted by John E on 9/29/2000 at 6:55:11 AM
... and you told us to be careful riding our "fragile" old
classics! In a letter to the magazine, a Machine Design
reader complained that his Northstar V-8 engine, with 40K
miles on the clock, had started to consume a quart of oil
between changes. The editor responded that many of today's
luxury cars are being designed for the life of their
original 3-year lease. In contrast, my 5th grade teacher
was able to own a Mercedes because he bought it used and
kept it another 20 years.

For me, owning older vehicles (1988 and 1989 cars and 1960,
1980, 1982, and 1988 bicycles) is a satisfying counter-
culture protest.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Keith on 9/29/2000 at 7:54:09 AM
The best thing is lugged steel, properly silver brazed, without significant internal rust. It's out there, new and used. Be careful of the old stuff that's rusted, and be careful of the newer stuff that's glued (as well as crownless TIG forks). Lugged steel, without rust, it's what you really need!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Oscar on 9/29/2000 at 8:25:31 AM
Carbon fiber bikes are for temporary use by race teams. They were not designed for folks like you and I who will use the same bike year after year.

I think bike manufacturers like Trek, Specialized, et al should restrain themselves from marketing race-specific bikes to the public. I know some bozo will pay gobs of money to ride a clone of Lance's bike, it seems every bike shop has two or three on the floor.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Keith on 9/29/2000 at 11:08:59 AM
The Dancing Chain offers an intersting perspective on this. For the first 3 decades or so of the 20th century, touring cyclists led the way in the development of new technologies that were eventually adopted by racers. At some point, perhaps with the introduction of the Gran Sport, perhaps, there was a crossover and racing became the breeding ground for much of the improvement. For many years, a lot of the racing-developed technology, both in frames and components, had application to touring or recreational riding. In the 70s until the mid-80s, a pure-bred racing bike was also a pretty good century bike, and could be counted on to last decades, at least, with proper care. Later, perhaps the 90s is the time, what was good for racing was no longer the best for recreation riding or touring. Yes, we can walk into a shop now and get the exact bike Lance Armstrong rode. But my friend's experience shows that an 18 pound carbon road racing bike is not the best choice unless you are actually racing and need the edge that the lighter bike, STI, and all that may give you. I would place the super-light aluminum bikes in the same catagory. I really can't say about titanium. Some say it will last forever, and some say steel still has an edge on durability -- I don't know. But even with titanium -- is a 39" wheelbase, twitchy racing machine best for the average non-racing rider? Anyway, unless you're sponsored by a team that will replace your bike anytime something goes wrong, I think you're better off (and will be more comfortable) with, you guessed it, lugged steel.

   39" wheelbase posted by John E on 10/1/2000 at 1:03:58 PM
Actually, my Bianchi's wheelbase, with the rear axle in the middle of the Campy dropouts, is about 39 inches, and I do not consider the bike twitchy. However, I do not think I would want to go any shorter. The Peugeot PKN-10E, at 39.5 inches, is slightly spongier on climbs. Maybe I'm just used to "twitchy," but I always found my Peugeot U-08, with its longer fork trail, 72-degree angles, and 40.5" wheelbase, a bit slow in its cornering response.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Keith on 10/2/2000 at 8:06:08 AM
Rivendell's Grant Peterson has written some insightful comments on chainstay length, and how it affects the transmission of power and the subjective feeling of acceleration. I'm in the process of questioning a lot of what I was brought up believing about road bicycles -- that some frames are "whippy" and therefore slower on climbs or sprints, and others are stiff due in large part to geometry. The only objective data I've seen on the web does not show that much difference in frames in terms of flex -- frame material seemed to matter most (this goes along with tubing diameter too). So, Kleins and Cannondales are very stiff. As far as cornering goes, I don't know. I have a couple of purebred racing bikes with short chainstays and wheelbases. One is a Campy NR-equiped '84/85 Cannondale crit bike. Wicked. But I'm discovering how nice it is to have a 41" (Trek 400T) on a century -- the feeling of straight-ahead stability and slightly enhanced vibration damping outweighs having to slow down slightly at corners. My Mercian is a compromise -- 40". I also have a Raleigh DL-1 with 67 degree seat tube and 46" wheelbase -- super stable and comfortable, and it corners fine. Vintage bikes are not fragile; on the contrary, good ones without bad rust will easily outlast glued or TIG stuff.