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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   Holdsworth and SR frames posted by: Howard on 11/5/2000 at 5:04:00 PM
I suppose this is as good a category as any. I have a couple of questions. I have a Holdworth Special purchased new in Denver in 1985. It was built here with Shimano 600 goodies and is still so equipped except for a new rear wheel. I am refurbishing it, (won't take much, brake hoods, good cleaning, relubing, rebuilding hubs,etc.). Would like to know where to find that era 600 goodies, etc. Also have a SR frame, with alloy cranks, but steel wheels, bars, etc. Would like to rebuild it with alloy wheels, better components. Does any one know shops, sites that deal in that era of components, etc.? Would like to find Cinelli bars, (42-44 cm X deep drop), Shimano or Suntour derailleurs 28 x 14 or so, and sundry goodies to go along with them. thanks in advance. -Howard

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Holdsworth and SR frames posted by Skip Echert on 11/5/2000 at 8:10:59 PM
For used parts, Recycled Cycles in Seattle is great. Mostly sell from their storefront but also sell mail order or over the web. http://www.recycledcycles.com/

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Holdsworth and SR frames posted by Keith on 11/6/2000 at 6:38:08 AM
If you're patient, old Shimano and Suntour stuff shows up at yard sales -- this includes nicer lines like 600. It can be fun hunting, but it can take a lot of time. There's a steady stream of Campy/Cinneli pieces on Ebay. Also try the Campy Only classifieds. There's another major site for vintage Campy stuff, and I forget the name -- someone here will post it (Bicycle Classics used to be a major player, now it's basically out of the picture).

AGE / VALUE:Ganna bicycle posted by: Pete on 11/4/2000 at 5:14:57 PM
I have an Italian lightweight bicycle of very delicate design
which may be 50 or more years old. The only marking on it is the
name Ganna on the steering head. Can anyone tell me about this bike?

AGE / VALUE:   1970's Schwinn Sprint posted by: Steve Good on 11/4/2000 at 6:30:30 AM
I have an mid 70's Schwinn Sprint, I have been debating if it is worth restoring. The Sprint had a seat tube which was formed with a noticeable bend backwards to put more weight over the back wheel. Any comments would be appreciated.

   Schwinn.com/heritage/collector's forum posted by John E on 11/4/2000 at 8:29:29 PM
You will want to post something on the Schwinn.com heritage collectors' forum to be sure, but you may have a decent bike there. If it fits your size and riding interests, by all means fix it up. If you substitute modern components, keep the originals to enhance potential future collectibility. The close-coupled rear triangle was unusual in its day.

MISC:   Fantasy posted by: Art on 11/3/2000 at 6:05:47 AM
What 2 bikes would you add to your collection, if money, availablility, etc. weren't a concern. You could still keep the bikes you have. I'm just curious about what bikes people want, are searching for, fantasize and/or lust after.

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by Mike Q. on 11/3/2000 at 7:35:38 AM
Only one. An original, mint condition Dursley Pedersen.

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by Tom Adams on 11/3/2000 at 5:08:20 PM
Schwinn Paramount racer, and then a Mercian King of Mercia 853 touring frame. Parts would be Campy, probably newer parts except for friction shifting. An older Gios Torino would be great too.

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by Wings on 11/3/2000 at 8:38:50 PM
Iver Johnson

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by Oscar on 11/3/2000 at 9:07:10 PM
Schwinn 1911 road racer and Rivendell All Rounder. Other than than, I'm covered.

   Colnago or Masi posted by John E on 11/4/2000 at 11:31:03 AM
Road racing -- 1st tier Italian steel frame; current Campy Record components, but with friction downtube shifters.

Mountain -- Marin?

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by Skip Echert on 11/5/2000 at 8:34:57 PM
An early 70s Cinelli with Nuovo Record to ride on SPECIAL occasions.

A titanium LightSpeed with (new) Record for those few rainy days here in Seattle.

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by Keith on 11/6/2000 at 6:25:29 AM
1. Merckx's Hour record bike; 2. Any bike ridden by Fausto Coppi in any major race, but preferably the '49 Giro.

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by Art on 11/6/2000 at 1:37:14 PM
First choice would be an original Rene Herse touring bike with racks and vintage bags. I'd like a Rivendell All Rounder, too.

   RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by RShearer on 11/13/2000 at 11:46:24 PM
I'd take a built-for-me Albert Eisentraut, forest green w/yellow decals (top-end Campy or Shimano, I'm not picky). For the second, just about anything from the 60's or 70's from a good British builder (Jackson, Taylor, Hetchins, Mercian, etc.).

   RE:RE:MISC:   Fantasy posted by VR on 11/18/2000 at 9:14:52 PM
Eisentraut? Heck yeah!!! I though I was the only one left that knows he's still around and building, as a matter of fact my latest is half way done right now! Of course it's going to be ugly what with using those unsightly (?!!!yeah right) Nervex Pro lugs and all. I'll be posting pics on Cycles De'Oro Vintage page when I get it in early 01... I like some of those older 60/70's bikes too but believe the Cinelli fork crown is the ugliest known to mankind...

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   paris posted by: phil on 11/3/2000 at 3:30:02 AM
Paris lightweight-twin top tubes, cut off seat tube.etc
Anyone got any info please- anything on the web?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Is Cycles D'oro Gone? posted by: Tom "Mad Cow" Faust on 11/2/2000 at 3:48:46 PM
Is the Cycles D'oro web site gone? My bookmark has been returning "no such address" for several days.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Is Cycles D'oro Gone? posted by Brian L. on 11/2/2000 at 4:52:04 PM
Don't know, been wondering the same thing.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Is Cycles D'oro Gone? posted by Tom Adams on 11/2/2000 at 6:03:50 PM
According to Dale Brown, the webmaster at Cycles De Oro, he changed web hosts and the new guys screwed the site all up. Couldn't make updates, links didn't work, etc etc. So he is trying to find another host, or get back with the old one. Patience is advised.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Is Cycles D'oro Gone? posted by ChristopherRobin on 11/3/2000 at 8:24:37 AM
Oh thats just great! Lovely! Next to Sheldon's page, this is just one of the best and more complete and informative pages out there. A lot of work went into this page from real fans and now it's a mess. Hope they get it back on line soon.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by: Scott W. on 10/31/2000 at 5:51:50 PM
Anyone see the cool 60 continental up for bid on ebay? I would love to have that bike. What are these bikes worth? I saw a later 61 go up to over $500.00 But the reserve was not met. Wonder what the reserve is on the 1960? The bike looks like its in mint cond. any thoughts??

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by Keith on 11/1/2000 at 5:59:27 AM
I can't decide whether the early Continentals and Varsities are of more interest to vintage lightweight collectors, or to Schwinn balloon, middleweight, and Krate collectors who want to branch out. The last time this came up the regulars took some stabs at it only to be corrected by a guy I think is more of a Schwinn guy. I think these early Continentals and Varsities are interesting, historically significant and worthy of collecting and preserving. On the other hand, if the prices of anything other than original year models begin to exceed that of Paramounts from the same era, which are true hand-made, high-end lightweights, then I'll start getting nauseated because that's how I feel when I see 70s Krates priced at 2-3 times more then 70s Paramounts.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by Keith on 11/1/2000 at 6:06:09 AM
P.S. Scroll down to Mike's 10-8-00 posting about his '60 Continental. "Ray" who seemed to know a lot about it, and had opinions as to the value, is, I believe, a Schwinn/Ballooner/Krate type guy. His email address is posted with his name.

   evolutionary dead ends posted by John E on 11/1/2000 at 7:04:04 AM
The 1960 Varsity and Continental are worth far more than their successors because they are first-year models, and because their suicide shifters, unique decal graphics, and 26" wheels give them a distinct appearance. Objectively, a 1963 Varsity (27" wheels, modern cable-driven front derailleur, Huret Allvit rear derailleur) or almost any good European road bike from the same era is a superior machine, but of course collectibility is determined more by scarcity than anything else. Also, the 1960 Varsity and Continental are arguably the most historically significant American road bikes ever produced, and total production of each was well under 1000 units.

To learn more about these bikes, look for VarCity's postings on Schwinn.com's Heritage/Collector's Forum. The man really knows his Schwinn light(?)weights!

   RE:evolutionary dead ends posted by Keith on 11/1/2000 at 9:08:02 AM
Yikes! I'm with you on historically significant -- but MOST historically significant? -- okay, maybe it really is -- well, not even maybe -- it just is -- so many people started out on one, myself included. Wasn't the Varsity the best-selling Schwinn model ever (in terms of total sold)? Nonetheless, I can't fall in love with a bike that rolled of the electroforge assembly line the way I can one that was painstakingly handcrafted and silver brazed, no matter how rare the former is. And as for rarity, in 1975, 875 Paramounts were made. Only 270 were made in 1958, and 420 in 1964.

   our niche posted by John E on 11/1/2000 at 11:03:54 AM
I agree completely, but the American public seems to like early Varsities and 1956 Chevies -- it's the nostalgia thing. By the way, four of my five bikes are nicely hand-brazed, and I do not plan to add a Varsity to the stable. (My above-the-car-hoods rafter hook storage system works best with sub-30lb bikes!)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by Brian on 11/1/2000 at 2:59:42 PM
I have seen these "first year" 60 Continentals go for as much as $800.00! I recently came across one at a bike/swap meet in Pa. The 1960 model is a very "handsome" looking bike. The gentlemen selling it wanted $350.00 for it & it needed some work. Looking back! I wish I had bought it. These bikes can only go up in value.

   1960 CONTINENTAL appearance posted by John E on 11/1/2000 at 7:36:07 PM
Yes, the 1960 looks much better than the later Contis. Why? Without the usual "safety" (sic) brake handles, chainguard, spoke protector, padded vinyl saddle, and "TwinStick" shifters, it looks much lighter and more European, even though it still weighs 36 lbs. Furthermore, that nice open-looking spider on this one's one-piece crank actually conformed to the near-universal European standard 3-bolt BCD of the day. Seeing this one on eBay brought back memories of my high school friend's chrome-plated 1960 Conti, which sported an aftermarket Campy Gran Sport in place of the Simplex rear changer.

The 1961s look almost as good as the 1960s and have the vastly superior Huret Allvit transmission. (Note that the clockspring of the normal-low Simplex rear derailleur on the eBay specimen is apparently too weak to pull the chain all the way to the inside freewheel cog. I used the Benelux equivalent on a 14-16-18-20 cogset for a couple of years -- it was by far the worst rear derailleur I have ever owned.)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by Keith on 11/2/2000 at 6:42:43 AM
I have to confess -- I own a completely non-collectable basically worthless early 70s Schwinn Varsity that I got at a garage sale because it it EXACTLY like the one I got at age 11 back in 1970. It's pristine and original, down to the matching green plastic tape. I added NOS chrome fenders, for looks and to make it even heavier. Ahh, nostalgia -- if I could only find a 1970-71 purple 24" Gitane Interclub, I'd be all set. Okay, add the '65 purple Sting Ray I had too.

   Bikes I had & wanted posted by Eric Amlie on 11/2/2000 at 12:53:40 PM
Ya Keith, thats how I got started in this whole bike thing. It's a nostalgia thing. I'm collecting the bikes that I had ('65 Varsity tourist) and wanted. I'm a little older than you so maybe mine are worth slightly more than your '70s Varsity, but not much. When I was 12 all my friends were getting Varsities. I was not allowed to have one as all things that hinted at speed were possibly dangerous and therefore verbotten, ie. "racing" bikes and "speed" skates. So I daydreamed of not only a 10 speed Varsity but going one better to a 15 speed Sierra or Superior. Later I coveted a friend's Gitane Tour de France but could not afford one myself. Now at 48 years old, married with no kids, house paid off years ago, I can afford these bikes so I'm going after them. At first I just wanted my old Varsity back and maybe the Sierra, but now the bike bug has bitten. I have several pre-67 Varsities, a '65 Collegiate, a '63 Sierra (very hard to find), a '71 P-15 Paramount tourer, an assortment of Schwinn 26" 2 & 3 speeds, an early '70s Gitane Tour de France, and I just scored a '66 Super Sport from the "For Sale" section of this website. Now if I can just find that '62 or '63 Schwinn Superior maybe I can stop all this nonsense and get on with my life.
As for the discussion and lamentation on the lack of other peoples appreciation for vintage road bikes; as with most other things, the more a person knows about something, the greater his ability to appreciate it. I suspect most of the people you meet on the bike trails who do not give your bikes a second look, do not know anything about vintage bikes. They do not realize what they are looking at. I myself have only been into this bike thing for less than two years and most of the bikes you guys talk about here I wouldn't recognize or appreciate either. However, I am trying to learn as much as I can (which is why I follow this discussion page) so that I can further appreciate your exotic bikes. In the end though, I think you must do it for yourself, not for others. I know that probably no one else in the world gives a tinkers damn about a '63 Schwinn Sierra or even knows what it is. It would be nice if someone else were to recognize and appreciate my bike, but that is not my prime motivator. The bike makes ME happy, even if no one else cares.

   RE:Bikes I had & wanted posted by Wings on 11/2/2000 at 10:39:47 PM
Well, in 1967 I deposited my Phantom and Iver Johnson from childhood at the back of a Goodwill store.
The garage was empty then and it looked so much better without them -- I was a runner.
I think of it every time I go by that store!
I bought a Varsity (used - $35) in 1963 or 1964.
Two years ago I deposited it at the back of another Good Will store! After all my garage, house, and patio and added sheds are full of cruisers (a deep wish to recapture my departed Phantom). The rugged Varsity that I rode for many miles was just one of millions that were made. I was buying them all the time for less than $9 for parts for my cruisers. Now this is the second string of messages telling about the Varsity as a collector item. I just never get it right!!!!!!!!!!! I do see old Schwinn lightweigts in a few bike shops with a price tag of $200 on them--when I first saw that I could not believe it! I saw a breeze -- 3 speed SA -- it was 30 years old and looked like it was new--it was awesom! I had to restrain myself! It was on sale for $120. It is nostalgia--Now I miss my old used Varsity! But there has got to be some logic here also. I have a nice old Motobecane in the living room. It is great -- so much better than my old Varsity. So much lighter -- so before I return to the 45 pound desire of my feelings -- I will just pick up that old Motobecane -- and learn to enjoy it! Because I never could have afforded that Motobecane that I bought for $25 and it is like a new bike!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by Ray on 11/3/2000 at 1:47:22 PM
Well I am that guy "Ray" who posted on this topic once before. As you can see this bike is valued more than the other Varsity and Continentals just for all the reasons mentioned above. This one on ebay is nice and in about the same condition as my coppertone one. They hold collector interest from both the Schwinn and Lightweight community because of their unique place in bicycle history. It really was the first (mass produced) derrailluer bike in the US. As such it has many unique parts which indicates that Schwinn was still not convinced that this was a good idea. Once it took off they then went the mass production route on their many components and that is why the subsequent year bikes are not as valuable. Also the Suicide front shifter is just a real piece of history along with the Simplex flat spring rear derrailuer which works in reverse. The Simplex rear was only on the Continental and the Huret on the Varsity. Also the 1960 Varsity was only an 8 speed also making it an oddity that collectors like me warm up to. You will note that the decaling on this bike is also a work of art, later years was more standard cookie cutter type. All of these things add up to a desireable bike from a collecting viewpoint. I own one each and will be keeping a close eye on this one. As for you Paramount folks, I agree that it is a far more superior bike but as someone said above collectors not only value performance they also look at bikes like art. After all the Mona Lisa is only oil on canvas. There is another aspect of the American Lightweight history. Schwinn made some lightweight derrailuer bikes in the 50s but they sold so poorly that they were recalled and stripped to make them all single speed. A few of these bikes did get out to the public. I have never seen one but they are well documented in the book "No Hands" the biography of the Schwinn Company. An let me set the record straight. Although I have some knowledge of these bikes I am really not a "Schwinn Guy". Those who know me and have seen my collection can testify to that. I have approx 60 bikes and they are everything from an Ice bike which I ride every year once the ponds freeze over to a 1878 Rudge Hi Wheeler that I ride around town. I collect the unusual and some Schwinn just happen to fall into that category. Cheers!

   Varsitiy vs. CONTINENTAL posted by John E on 11/3/2000 at 3:29:23 PM
Interesting, Ray -- so the 1960 Varsity had a Simplex suicide front and a Huret rear derailleur? I am puzzled that the more primitive flat-spring, normal-low derailleur was selected for the 5-speed, and the more reliable, more modern derailleur was used with the 4-speed, rather than the other way around. I suppose they wanted to put a unified "group" on the more expensive Continental.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by Ray on 11/3/2000 at 8:31:31 PM
Yea John it is interesting. I thought the same thing when I first saw them.
I have a Schwinn shop manual with photos of this bike showing how to assemble and repair them and sure enough the Conti photo has the Simplex.
Your explanation is a good as any I have heard.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   NICE CONTINENTAL posted by Keith on 11/6/2000 at 11:27:33 AM
Rivendell Reader-5 published a letter from the Varsity's creator, Keith Kingsbay, to Frank Berto. In it, Kingsbay says the original 1960 Varsity had a Simplex rear derailleur, and goes on to explain how Huret came into the picture a year later. Part of the letter was reproduced in Berto's "Dancing Chain" book.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by: Keith on 10/31/2000 at 10:26:59 AM
Some recent postings brings up the subject -- who the heck are vintage lightweight collectors? It seems to me that none of us who frequent this site are the high rollers -- those with Campy Corsa-equiped Coppi-era Bianchis, curly stay Hetchins, and the like. But who out there is looking for the garden variety 70s to mid-80s vintage lightweights? My best guess is mostly people who cut their teeth on these bikes in this era. But there are plenty of people who started riding then, and who still ride, who really couldn't care less about vintage lightweights. They've moved on to contemporary road bikes and they're quite happy. They may recognize my Mercian or Paramount, or my friend's PX-10 on a club ride, but they'll just smile and that's it -- they don't want to own one. I honestly think there are very very few of us. On large group rides I see very few vintage bikes. And even then, some of those who ride older bikes have no sense of vintage nostalgia for them -- it's just a bike that happens to be older! Another sign I see is Bicycle Classics Michael "Mr. Vintage Lightweight" Kone's recent pronouncement that he's basicaly gettng out of the business and becoming a Waterford dealer. He was and is truly a leading expert, and I think it's fair to assume that at least one reason he got out was general lack of interest and money. I also cruise Ebay regularly, and see nice looking, well credentialed bikes go for far less than the "Wild Guesses" prices, or go unbid altogether. Now, this isn't necessarily bad news. What's good about it is that there are a lot of beautiful, funtional vintage bikes out there for us, and they should be available for a lot less than some people have been suggesting. So the next time someone asks "how much is my all Campy 1970s _______ worth?" unless its a Masi or Cinelli I'm gonna say about $400-500, because I think that's really where we are. (BTW, the most I've spent on an Campy NR bike was $335, I've bought a few for quite a bit less).

   Who am I? posted by John E on 10/31/2000 at 1:15:32 PM
I was born on Tullio Campagnolo's 49th birthday (hence, my eBay alias, "tullio-49th"). Of the dozens of bicycles I have owned, only two, a 1963 bottom-of-the-line Bianchi and a 1971 American Eagle Semi-Pro (Nishiki Competition) were purchased new. I derive far more satisfaction from discovering and fixing up an older bike than from buying a new one. My bicycles are daily drivers -- I do not have space for a "look but do not touch" museum at home, although I am glad some folks do. Because I value value (it's a Scottish genetic defect), I look for nice second-tier equipment, which is 95+% as good as the very best stuff, at less than half the price. Since my tastes favor European frames and Japanese components, I have two "East meets West" bikes, on which I have replaced Simplex or worn-out(!) Campy Gran Sport with SunTour. (Don't worry, the Campy brakes, pedals, and derailleurs will stay on the Bianchi.)

Keith is right about most people's reactions to old bikes --only those who really know bicycles tend to notice or comment on one of mine.

   Who am I? posted by Art on 10/31/2000 at 6:24:14 PM
I bought my first real bike, a Motobecane built Astra, in 1967 for $67 when I started college at the U of A. My mother couldn't believe I spent that much money for a bike. Over the years, I've collected different kinds of bikes, but I've moved most of those bikes on that I don't ride. I've got a nice Masi, a Nervex Allegro that I plan to build up, and a Rudge Clubman road bike. My Paramount has elevated my collection, but I only paid $200 for it which I think is a pretty good deal. The only bikes I'm really interested in now are high end bikes, preferably from the 40's or 50's. I'd love a Herse or a Hectchins, but I won't pay the kind of money most people want for them. I have bought new bicycles, most recently to support a local bike shop who helps me find and repair the old bikes that I love. But I probably wouldn't buy a new one again. For the price, the quallity just isn't there. I find value in good quality lightweights from the 60's and 70's because 1. I have the bike bug, 2. they're out there (the chances of me finding an affordable Herse are pretty nonexistant), and 3. they are still affordable. It's hard to pass up a good Gitane or Mercian for $30 or $40. What hasn't happened to the bikes you talk about Keith, but has happened to high end road bikes, ballooners, and even Sting Rays is the same thing that happened to old toys. Once those items got into the hands of dealers, they become no longer affordable to the average collector. That hasn't happened to most of the bikes we talk about here. It may be that public interest just hasn't caught up to these bikes yet.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by jimbo on 10/31/2000 at 11:04:07 PM
I collect bikes for the fun and excitement of finding a 60's or 70's vintage thoroughbred I wanted but couldnt afford. I'm just as happy to find a stella, mercier or carlton with an interesting head badge, decals or paint job. I go to thrift stores garage sales and hope to find the holy grail of bkedom, a campy reynolds colombus dura-ace european racer only to find the loch ness monster rusted crusted beast! I read in a bicycling magazine about a multi-millionaire who only bought limited edition gold- plated show display bikes. The wrost thng that can happen to collecting is that someone will read a story like this and then get a little idea that all bicycles are valuable, then all the bikes on e-bay will become "rare and hard to find". I hope this never happens and I can keep having fun looking for cool bikes, riding them and enjoying the nostalga of a bygone era.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by Tom "Mad Cow" Faust on 11/1/2000 at 12:49:43 AM
I am having a litttle difficulty organizing my thoughts on this one, but here goes. I agree with Keith and have noticed very few older lightweights on the heavily travelled bike path that I frequent. Most that I see are ridden by original owners and not cognescenti. Since the shape and design of the bicycle is determined by functionality it is difficult to present a radically different appearance. Consquently, most people don't see the difference. It also has to be considered that to some extent, bicycles, like bottled water, are a fashion item (for years, I thought those people strolling with a bottle of water were actually thirsty). The majority are only interested in the newest. A well cut lug does not attract attention at a distance, consequently most people don't notice them. More people are attracted by the "high tech" of TIG welding. I do enough of my own welding to realize that TIG is just another production method. In any case, the vintage lightweight does not stand out enough from the masses to make it a crowd pleaser. It also was probably not a part of the mass culture in the way that the "Stingray" may have been. Consquently, the nostalgia value is lacking. I notice that on those occaissions that I ride my Raleigh Sport, it draws considerably more commentary, and starts more conversations, than the GF's high end road bike. The lady friend is frequently chagrined that my thrift shop bike should do this. My Dawes and Austro-Daimler go unnoticed.
Perhaps there is some explanation here. Among my other "rides", aside from the Raleigh, is a 'Cuda convertible. This is not a car of the highest quality, but it has a certain visceral appeal. Last summer, while conversing with a 5 year old girl in the neighborhood, she informed me that it must be a "very happy car". I asked why, she told me that when I drove by, "everybody smiled".
Maybe the problem is that the vintage lightweight does not separate itself from the crowd. The best is not readily distinct from the worst. Consequently, only the well informed will readily distinquish one from the other.
There may also be a question of the perception of value. Does a new $1600.00 Bianchi give more satisfaction than a "find" at $100.00. Is it really 16 times better. As with my 'Cuda, realizing its "value" in cash probably wouldn't buy me a new Chevy Corsica, or whatever the current model is. But, the question never really occurs to me. I am thankful to whomever perceived a value in it in 1970, or else I wouldn't have it now. The same thanks to the persons unknown, who perceived a value in my Raleigh in 1965, my Dawes in 1972, and my A-D in 1978.
I guess that although I "value" a "good bike", there is a limit to that "value". I do not lust for a new Rivendell, I simply do not see it as significantly better than what I have. On the other hand, if someone does not perceive that value, my kid will never rescue one from a thrift shop or yard sale.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by Keith on 11/1/2000 at 5:20:22 AM
Tom makes a good point about the basic form - to 999 out of 1000, show them a mint 1972 silver Fuji S-10-S, and a 1972 Cinelli Supercourse, and yes, they'd say, "They kinda look the same." Functionally, they'll both get you from A to B. I think that's why we get a steady flow of questions like "how much is my Fuji (or Raleigh Record or Peugeot UO-8) worth?" People find a new-looking 30 year old bike in their attic or at a yard sale and they think, geez, this could be a rare collectable. On new bikes -- I think the average road biker is not that interested in the fine points as long as the equipment works. I don't think they are lured by technology as much as the hope that if they spend enough they'll get something that works well. I believe the drill is to look at a Bicycling issue or two (which lauds most everything), then go to a bike shop and get the most bike you can afford. And since many road cyclists, being middle aged, are at their peak income, they can afford a Seven, Merlin, or Colnago C-40, or at least the mid-range Litespeed or top-of-the line Trek OCLV. "This is exoensive, it must be good." And then it actually works for them, they get ohs and ahs from those who also read Bicycling and know that its the latest and how much it cost, so they're very happy. But as we know the old stuff works just as well, if not better, and for less, and with more style, character, etc.

   things haven't changed entirely posted by John E on 11/1/2000 at 6:53:52 AM
When I was a starving student who had just splurged $150 on my 1971 American Eagle Semi-Pro, because it was the only aluminum cranked, d.b. CrMo-framed new bike I could afford, most of the Masis and Colnagos were being bought by racers and by well-heeled 50-something guys (who also brought sports cars as part of their respective midlife crises). Just as their predecessors did thirty years later, today's racers and the 50-somethings are buying high end road machines. Because I like bikes that are sporty, practical, and cheap, I am happily stuck in my early 1980s time warp.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by Art on 11/1/2000 at 7:23:09 AM
I think that consumers are seduced by style and the appearance of being on the cutting end of something new. I think, unfortunately, bike makers realize that if they can't keep selling bikes, they can't stay in the black. Thus we get bikes that have become 'obsolete' after two years. Parts that can't be repaired but must be replaced. Racing technology that is unnecessary for the common rider. The newest line of mountain bikes that replace racing tech with downhill tech marketed to the general public as the 'new spring line'. Bicycling magazine, which has become a real rag, shoves this stuff in readers faces from shots of mt bikers flying through the air to it's ridiculous reviews of new bikes. What's a poor bike afficionado do? Bicycle classics shuts down, the Bicycle Trader stops printing it's paper full of articles. A call goes out to help Rivendell. The Brooks saddle-going-out -of-business thing which seems as full of contradictions and misinformation as anything else. What's a poor classic bike afficionado do? E-bay perverts the whole thing with "rare classic" thrown around like confetti, everything is an antique, and the idea that fair market value is what some moron puts on the reserve for a piece of junk that then dictates what every piece of junk is worth to some crap picker in Palookaville. Why are classic bikes of interest to us. The question ought to be, why are they not of interest to more people? I think what Tom said is the key. They aren't visually and instantly superficially superior to the average cyclist. One has to learn to look, one has to work at it. It is the one concept that is hardest for me to get into the heads of adolescent art students. I think the answer exists in sites like this, where people really teach each other about how to see, about what the true value of fine objects really is. And where profit is not the name of the game. I am convinced if in the long run, my Paramount doesn't work out for me, I will not put it into the machine for profit, but turn it on to someone who can and will appreciate it. Recently, I contacted a English fellow who had a curly Hetchins that he was thinking of selling. He got so interested in the bike, its history, the parts to restore it to it's original beauty, that through subsequent e-mails I saw him fallling in love with the bike. I'm sure he will keep it. And you know, it's not my loss that I won't get this Hetchins, it's the English fellow's gain that he fell in love with a great bike. If I was a dealer, or if I didn't see a larger view of collecting, which I attribute to your posts on this site, I'd be mad instead of happy for the guy. I think educating values takes a lot of different forms, or should I say forums.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by Christopherrobin@starmail.com on 11/1/2000 at 1:27:47 PM
I'll bet there are a lot of older riders who hate the new bike they just bought once they get it out and break it in. I'll bet they are wanting that specific bike they had years ago and should not have parted with. They look so grumpy as they ride along.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by jimbo on 11/1/2000 at 9:32:44 PM
One thing that might help vintage bike collectors is that mountain bikes have in a way made ten speeds obsolete! I have collected records for over twenty five years and thought almost all the good records were gone, but when cd's came out alot of people got rid of their collections and I've seen more interesting records in the last ten years than ever before. Nowdays mountain bikes have in a way done the same thing to ten speeds, offering 18 or 21 speeds, front suspension and an easier riding position.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by jimbo on 11/1/2000 at 10:08:07 PM
Anyway before I was interupted, I think a quote from the late Steve Allen will explain my thoughts much better " be that as it may, and it probably never was". I think new riders and old riders are getting into mountain bikes and dont know or care to know about vintage lightweights. The parts are french, italian and english and probaly in their way of thinkng archiac and inferior to the high tech wizarditry of STI shifting.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by Tom "Mad Cow" Faust on 11/2/2000 at 3:46:27 PM
Jimbo, may have a point. I do admit having converted some of my bikes to hybrid/MTB bars. They are more comfortable for the kind of riding I do. I will not violate the Raleigh.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who am I posted by sam on 11/2/2000 at 5:13:14 PM
I don't know squt about lightweights,just wanted a 2-speed middle weight like I had as a kid.So I got one on ebay which led to more bikes, this site ,more bikes,other sites,more bikes,more bikes,more bikes---well now that everybody is throwing out lightweights to make room for the new m/b's I run across more and more l/w . So I read what you can teach me,THANKS,Sam

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by Wheelman@nac.net on 11/3/2000 at 2:13:51 PM
Very interesting string. I am one of those guys who came over from the Balloon, Sting Ray, Middleweight and Antique side to the Lightweights. I probably know far less on lightweight bikes than any other but I am learning. I collect for 3 reasons. One to admire the art of the bike. Two for the ride and I ride everything I collect. Three to sell or trade to buy other bikes. Although I have favorites I really like to learn about a bike then turn it over. I work on my own and have a good network of friends who can help on virtually any bike I come across. As for lightweights, they have recently peaked my interest over the last 2-3 years. I also have a good friend in the Fanwood NJ bike shop "The Bike Stand" named Steve Willis. Steve is a real professional bike mechanic and builder who has forgotten more about lightweights than I will ever know. His clientel also comes from the ranks of national teams as well as olympians. He is a wealth of knowledge for me. I started with my two first year Schwinn Continental and Varsity. I then purchased from Steve a Raleigh Competition with Carlton frame and Huret Jubilee all around. I have an 86 Cannondale I got from Steve but I am looking for that first year 83. I picked up a real clean NOS 70s Motobecane at the Trexlertown antique bike show and it has such a nice blue paint with a great mixture of components from Campy headset to Stronglight cranks and rings. You would all shoot me if you found out what I paid for it. Last week I picked up at a garage sale an early SR lightweight bicycle with Shimano 600 all around. Real nice scroll work on that 600 set. If you think collectors are not going to get into this area you are mistaken. I don't want to alarm anyone but we are already here. If any of you were at the Trexlertown road show a couple of weeks ago then you know what I am talking about. BTW, I also collect rare lightweight components. I have NOS Benelux flat spring derrailuers, shift levers, Simplex of various types. I also have a set of Mattuck calipers and levers NOS and many other items. As I said I am always looking for a good trade. PS, how many of you know of Larkin, Sam or Curtis from this northeastern corner of the country. If you think I have some neat stuff you should see what they have. If you have been to any of the show I have been to then you know. Cheers!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by Steve on 11/3/2000 at 2:21:14 PM
Gentlemen, I'm very impressed with the postings on this site(my first visit) and this thread in particular. I agree with the notion that "our" bikes don't draw much attention from most because they aren't percieved as classics just old stuff(try driving your classic Ferrari around unnoticed!)But it occurs to me we have the best of all possible worlds for the time being, a still reasonably plentiful supply of pre-advertising driven bikes at what will probably become laughably low prices. If you stay away from the Campy NOS market there's plenty to be had for reasonable money. That will change as the supply of friction shifting, lugged steel bikes diminishes and we'll all be faced with the fact that the bikes we've ridden for years are then "too valuable" to actually ride. Rejoice, these must be the good old days after all.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Who Are We? posted by desmo on 11/4/2000 at 9:22:20 PM
It appears that most vintage racing bikes will remain a great value. The supply is greater than the demand. I can't relate to having my bikes ignored, though. My Teal Blue chrome-lugged Nuovo Record Bartali will draw stares from just about anyone, even if they know nothing about bikes. And nobody knows ANYTHING about Bartalis! My 531 '71 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, perhaps because it's less flashy, seems to escape the notice of any but the cognescenti even though I assume it's worth far more than my Bartali.

Scarcity is largely irrelevant as a factor in price as my Bartali is probably the only one in this region of the country, I heard there was ONE in Sacramento CA, about 1500 miles from where I live in WA state, but if I put it up for sale I'd be surprised if I got more than $500 for it. It's so rare no one has ever heard of it, it's TOO rare!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Should I keep the Legnano-Frejus posted by: Dumbo on 10/31/2000 at 6:33:15 AM
I have been trying unsuccessfully to sell my early '70s Legnano, for I think a reasonable price. Maybe its the weather gettin' on cold in the bones, as they say here in Jersey, but it aint sellin'. But all my biker friends say I shouldn't sell it, its too valuable. But I don't use it, and it just gets more and more scrached in storage. Vhat should I do? Hare-brained in Hoboken.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Should I keep the Legnano-Frejus posted by Art on 10/31/2000 at 6:52:15 AM
Describe your bike and what you were asking for it.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Should I keep the Legnano-Frejus posted by Brian L. on 10/31/2000 at 9:09:34 AM
I would recommend that somebody buy this man's Frejus (Legnano) if its a clean, nice one. I just finished building up a 65(?) Legnano and it absolutely great riding. Smooth, but plenty stiff enough if you stand on it with nicely balanced geometry and bb height.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Should I keep the Legnano-Frejus posted by Keith on 10/31/2000 at 10:24:35 AM
When your friends say it's "too valuable," what do they mean? Scroll down to get my views on the vintage lightweight market -- it's "thin" and likely to get thinner over time for all but the rarest and most historically significant machines. The cyclingutah.com "Classic Corner" places your Legnano within the "second tier," of 70s vintage lightweights, with a value of $500 to $850. If it's pristine, and 100% original, then you might get the $850 from one of the 10 or so people in the entire country who might be nostalgic for '70s Legnanos. If you want a real eye openner, put it on Ebay -- maybe you'll score but I'd bet you wouldn't even get $500. What was your asking price? I think Legnano is a somewhat significant brand historicaly because it was one of the few European brands imported into the U.S. before the 70s bike boom. But yours is a 70s model. In all, I think those few of us, and you, who appreciate these bikes should keep them, preserve them, enjoy them, and ride them (unless they are truly rare, then maybe hang it on a wall). Don't count on retiring or sending the kids to college on them.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Should I keep the Legnano-Frejus posted by Drew on 11/3/2000 at 6:51:24 AM
Am asking $700(which I think is reasonable, as all the parts are campagnolo neuvo record), and its in great condition. I am having second thoughts about selling. Just looking at it is a lot of fun. But, alas I am a mountain bike man, I just get too damn angry yelling at crazy drivers on the roads 'round here. Cheers.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Should I keep the Legnano-Frejus posted by desmo on 11/4/2000 at 9:31:08 PM
$700 is too high for that bike, unless it's NOS. From what I've seen 400-500 is more realistic and 400 isn't unreasonable. Vintage racing bikes are remarkably good values and I see no sign that they won't always remain so, unless you must have a classic Cinelli or Herse.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Should I keep the Legnano-Frejus posted by Keith on 11/7/2000 at 7:31:04 AM
Personally I think your bike is worth $700 when you consider the cost of a new road bike. But I have to agree it will be very difficult to get that price unless you are very patient and find that rare person who is nuts for Legnanos. And this may never happen. Try posting on Bicycle Trader, Campy Only, and Cycles de Oro classifieds. Ebay should be a last resort -- only if you need to move it quickly.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   ROLLS-Eurocicio posted by: Fred on 10/31/2000 at 6:11:19 AM
Help! I recently purchased at a garage sale an Italian made bike I never heard of. It says ROLLS-Eurocicio, made in Italy on the head tube and seat post. The logo looks like the Colnago (clubs) and also has on it what appears to be the 5 Olympic rings. The fork tips are chrome as are the rears. The brakes are BALILLA. The alloy rims are AMBROSIO. The derailleurs and shifters are HURET. Shifters are on the down tube. Crankset is cotterd. The bike is a 10 speed with what appears to be racing gears. It'a a tall frame, 25'', but is extremely light. One of the decals also says Tour de France, another shows a map of Italy. The bike itself was purchased from the original owners wife who sads it was probably from the late 60's. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! Fred

MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by: robertbox@angelfire.com on 10/29/2000 at 8:00:42 PM
Can someone please tell me what is meant when a Schwinn wheel is described as having tubular rims??


   RE:MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by Carl on 10/30/2000 at 8:58:45 AM
This site has a Tire and Rim chart. You can get to it from the dropdown list at the top of this page, or from the main page (OldRoads.com) under the General Resources section.

You'll see rim cross sections and such.

   RE:MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by Art on 10/30/2000 at 11:05:41 AM
Clinchers or Tubulars. Clinchers take inner tubes and tires. Tubulars are tire and tube combined and are glued into the rim.

   RE:MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by Keith on 10/30/2000 at 11:26:31 AM
The term "tubular" here refers not to the tire type, but the rim. Schwinn "tubular" 27" rims were used on the 70s Varsities, Suburbans, etc, and took the 27" x 1 and1/4 Schwinn "Puff" tires, as well as any other standard 27" tires. They were heavy, well-chromed steel, and were basically bomb-proof. My wife caught a tree branch in her Suburban once, snapped 3 spokes, and the wheel was still rideable. She hops curbs on them all the time -- I mean every time we ride -- and they stay in true. I believe tubular refers to the "tubes" that are present in the cross section, which apparently make it stronger. I don't know whether other sizes of Schwinn rims are designated tubular -- I'm not a Schwinn guy.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by Wings on 10/30/2000 at 6:50:12 PM
All of my Schwinn rims say:
"Schwinn Tubular S2" (Phantom)
"Schwinn Tubular S7" and so on.
The 27 by 1 1/4 are all marked tubular on knurled (little marks on rim) rims.
The 26 inch rim is aslso "tubular."
Stingrays rims are marked "tubular."
It has been my guess (I underline guess) that "tubular" refers to a rim that requires a tube and tire combination.
As oppossed to my first bike (Iver Johnson) that had wooden rims and the tire had no tube and it was a family project to glue the tire to the wooden rim! But I don't really know.
I do know that your Schwinn rim marked tubular should be treated as a regular rim that takes a tire and tube combination because I have been installing those month after month!
Keith's comment about tough rims is certaily true! Those rims last.

   RE:MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by Robert on 10/30/2000 at 7:28:48 PM
Ok, heres the deal. These are early 70's Schwinn wheels. I've been told that the front has a Schwinn approved hub and that the rim is a Schwinn tubular. Rear wheel is a sturmey archer with a Taiwan rim labeled cmc. These are 26 x 1 3/8. Now my question is will these take your Wal Mart variety of 26 x 1 3/8 tires? Or do I have to by the "Schwinn Size" 26 x 1 3/8 tires?
Thanks for your answers so far.

   RE:MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by Eric Amlie on 10/31/2000 at 6:44:09 AM
First the rims. The "tubular means that they were formed from a steel tube, pressed to shape then curved to radius and welded together. Stronger than rims formed from a flat strip of steel. If you look at the cross sections you can see this. The 26" Schwinn lightweight rims take a 597 mm bead tire. The garden variety you buy at Walmart, and most British 26" are 590 mm and will not fit right. The British EA-1 tires have this same 597 mm bead so they will fit. Schwinn used special sizes in some of their smaller tires also. The 27" tires were always the standard size (630 mm bead?) though.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Schwinn tubular rims????????? posted by Robert on 10/31/2000 at 10:51:25 AM
Thanks Eric and everyone else for the info!!


AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by: jimbo on 10/28/2000 at 10:22:38 PM
I checked the e-bay and saw an Ideale saddle with the flat aluminum rails along with a matching zeus seat post which went for $280. I've also seen an original Brooks Swallow on the e-bay go for less than $100. Not long ago Brooks stopped making saddles and this was lamented by many of you at this site. Does any one have an opinion about wether classic original saddles will increase in value or which saddle was better Brooks or Ideale. I had a Brooks professional that was brooken in and it was much more comfortable than my brothers Ideale which was lke sitting on a cocanut.

    BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by John E on 10/29/2000 at 4:59:47 PM
Argument for tensioned leather saddles increasing in value: they don't make 'em anymore. Brooks Pros certainly have increased in value over the past decade or so.
Argument against: The average age of potential buyers increases by almost one year per calendar year. It's a thin market, akin to the demand for upper-middle quality road bikes from the 1970s. Is there any demand at all for leather saddles among our youth and young adults?

   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by John E on 10/29/2000 at 5:06:55 PM
I have owned three leather saddles: an Ideale (sorry, I never knew the model name/number), a Brooks Pro, and a Bianchi. Although the Brooks was the best-looking and most durable of the lot and is the only one I still have, I found all three to be quite comfortable, following initial (painful) break-in.

   RE: BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by jimbo on 10/29/2000 at 9:17:46 PM
You cant beat a brooken in leather saddle for comfort. I think my brooks pro saddle is worth its weight in new bodily contoured comfort saddles. I wondered which type of saddles were favorites. Nowdays "lite is right" with saddles made of declassified governmet top secret materials to one designed by new age faith healers and chiropractors. Have bike riders rear ends changed that much in 20 to 30 years. I was just curious if the persons who look at this site prefered Ideale 80 or 90 or the Brooks B15 or B75 or whatever. I always wanted one of the honey brown Ideales.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by Keith on 10/30/2000 at 8:46:12 AM
John said something very significant -- in essense, every year the average age of road bike riders goes up about a year. This is true of the local club, and, I've been told, the scene nationally. This does, of course, suggest one reason the vintage road bike market is thin. From a broader perspective, it shows the sport of road biking, as we know it, is aging and will eventually die with us (there will no doubt always be a few excentric antiquarians who take it up, as they did in the U.S. in the 40s and 50s). Here's to the next bike boom, whenever it comes!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by Keith on 10/30/2000 at 8:50:40 AM
P.S. I never spent any moe than a few miles on an Ideale, but I know Brooks has worked for me. Honey Brown? The Deluxe Champion B-17 sold by Rivendell was Honey Brown, and had copper plated rivets AND copper plated rails. Beautiful! I got two the week before they stopped shipping. Comfort? I rode mine on a back-to-back century right out of the box, without any breaking in pains.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by Scott Smith on 10/30/2000 at 1:52:04 PM
For anyone searching for a Brooks Pro, I just bought an antique brown Team Professional from an LBS here in Encino for 85.00. The owner still has another antique brown, a black and a honey colored Team Pro. It's Encino Cycles 818 344-4707. I'd by another but then I'd be hoarding. (already have a new black Team Pro as well)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by Mike Q. on 10/30/2000 at 4:52:22 PM
Hold on! What's wrong with you people? Brooks is still making saddles, and their U.S. importer, Persons, is still selling the full line at good, ol' normal prices. Ebay buyers are being played. Bike shops are gouging. Time for this nonsense to stop!!

Forget about Ideale, though. They're out of business.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by ChristopherRobin on 11/3/2000 at 8:31:39 AM
Ideale is in the belly of Brooks having been swallowed up years ago. Along with Brookes motorcycles, Dunlop's rubber seats(saddles) and a lot of other discontinued treasures of yesteryear. Brooks is up in the air at the moment, I guess, Sturmey-Archer is gone, being broken up and the name being offered. Brooks was part of Sturmey but it looked like someone was going to buy them but we haven't yeat heard about the fate of Brooks. Stay with us here, where we share what we find out. Ideale was not as high quality as Brooks and then became the Brooks B-line of seats.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by Daniel Rebour on 11/3/2000 at 9:52:45 PM
Ideale not as good as Brooks??? I'd like to keep this myth going because it will keep you from buying up the Ideales out there. An Ideale 90 or 90A (Flat Alloy rails) is much nicer than any Brooks Pro. I do have several Ideales and Brooks just because I can always pick up a Brooks Pro for $70 anywhere, Ideales will run you $140 and up if you can find it NOS.

Renaissance.com has all the Brooks models listed on the 'new arrivals' page for $70ish. That guy "BC" rules--Bicycle Klassics could never touch this master! I think the Rebour Ideale 90's are thicker and much nicer than the Brooks models, rivets are better, and the chrome under the saddle is thicker... Compare and I bet you'd take a 90 too! Viva la france, baby! I have five NOS 90's (Brown, Black, and the the crown jewel: tan!!!) to use but I bet I'll never even get to the second one, so look for an estate sale in forty years or so and enjoy...

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by Jon on 11/7/2000 at 5:24:14 PM
The shop I worked for picked up the Ideale line when we could not get Brooks Pros because of high demand at the time. It was a knock off of the Brooks. The general concensus was that it was an inferior saddle that was created to satisfy a demand.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   BROOKS VS. IDEALE posted by Rich on 11/8/2000 at 8:14:43 PM
Do some research junior, Ideale has been around longer and any 50's or 60's magazine will confirm the more desirable saddle of the golden era of leather saddles! A concensus that Ideale is a recent company is pure idiotiocy.

MISC:   A Collectors Lament posted by: Wings on 10/27/2000 at 7:16:22 PM
Now I know I have no lugs of Nervex.
That gives me a pain in my cervix (neck).
I thought my bikes were so great -- I was so happy!
But I have no cranks of Stronglight or Campy.

Even my Raleigh 3 Speed is not SA....it is Shimmano!
Hey! I'll keep looking tomorrow.
My 541 sticker is in the wrong place.
I really am in last place!

How can I compete with all of you out there?
My "collection" amounts to thin air!
Such despair.
But I don't care, you see I have something to share!

My only hope is in my last prize collection! It is my Magnum-Opus!
My hope at vintage value and classic pride is my choice, my election--it is my Free Spirit collection (I have every color!) -- or am I again hopeless?

   RE:MISC:   A Collectors Lament posted by Tom "Mad Cow" Faust on 10/27/2000 at 9:16:48 PM
Don't quit your day job!

   Stronglight crankset posted by John E on 10/28/2000 at 3:20:25 PM
If you are serious about the Stronglight cranks, I have a spare B9 set from 1980 (52/42T factory-drilled, 170mm, 9/16x24", 122mm BCD).

   RE:Stronglight crankset posted by Oscar on 10/28/2000 at 7:24:29 PM
I'll bet your offer came just in time
Only too bad it didn't rhyme.

   a limerick posted by John E on 10/28/2000 at 10:01:55 PM
You want poetry? Try this. (When properly read, this equation is a limerick of standard metrical and rhyming format.)

(12 + 144 + 20
+ 5 * /4

+ 6 * 11)

/ 7 =
6 + 0

   RE:a limerick: formatting corrections posted by John E on 10/28/2000 at 10:04:35 PM
The underline above the + sign should be over the 4, forming a square root sign.

The 2 over the last 6 should be an exponent for that number.

   RE:a limerick posted by Wings on 10/28/2000 at 11:45:34 PM
In order to get the rhyme and time am I to read the equation as it would be written in mathematics, ie. your lines 1 through 3 over the vinculum (All divided by 7) or are your lines a hint as to how the rhyme unfolds?
I wondered if you wrote the five lines due to the difficulty of writing it online as one would write the equation in math--of course I could also write that using a series of parenthese too-- but they are not needed.
I think I have it but the last line 36 + 0 has got me!
I hope you eventually share your answer--not yet as I want to suffer!
Good one!

   RE:MISC:   A Collectors Lament posted by Brian L. on 10/29/2000 at 1:07:17 AM
O.K. All that number stuff was just too esoteric, but if you want Nervex I have a clean, green Super Course with the requisite Nervex that could be yours cheap, plus postage, if you ride a 22" c-t.

   hint posted by John E on 10/29/2000 at 5:15:47 PM
The parens are needed for mathematical correctness:
(12+144+20+5*SQRT(4)+6*11)/7 = 6*6 + 0
The equation is written as a 5-line limerick, with my line breaks corresponding to the natural metrical line breaks, as in:
"There was a young woman named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster than light.
She set out one day
In a relative way,
And returned on the previous night."

Hint: Lines 1, 2, and 5 of the equation rhyme with "Gore."
The rhyme scheme of lines 3 and 4 is obvious by inspection.

   RE:hint--Maybe???? posted by Wings on 10/29/2000 at 5:50:14 PM
The sum of the quantity twelve, twenty, and one hundred forty-four,
Added to the product of 5 and radical 4,
Added to the product of 6 and 11,
All divided by 7,
Equals 6 to the second power and add no more!

Perhaps I may not have it!

   RE:RE:Maybe posted by Wings on 10/29/2000 at 5:54:54 PM
Who needs stronglight and campy,
When this poetry is so snappy?

   you are close posted by John E on 10/30/2000 at 9:24:54 AM
A dozen, a gross, and a score,
Plus five times the square root of four,
Plus six times eleven,
Divided by seven,
Is six squared and not a bit more.

   RE:you are close posted by Wings on 10/30/2000 at 6:59:09 PM
"Score" - Oh my goodness!!! That is not in my vocabulary!
Well, that certainly gave me a good laugh!
Thanks for the Puzzler!

AGE / VALUE:   Campag. Cambio Corsa derailleur posted by: John E on 10/27/2000 at 7:26:26 PM
The Campagnolo Cambio Corsa derailleur on eBay just hit $500, and Tullio's 100th birthday isn't until next summer! For those of you unfamiliar with this contraption, to me it is the ultimate "suicide shifter." "The Dancing Chain" has a great picture of a half-step-geared bike with a Corsa in the back and a Simplex Tour de France suicide stick in the front.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campag. Cambio Corsa derailleur posted by Keith on 10/30/2000 at 11:36:22 AM
This is that real top-tier collectable stuff -- how many sets of these did Tullio make in his shop with what -- one other guy? Not many! By comparison the Berto-maligned Nouvo Record stuff I drool over is downright common.

AGE / VALUE:   An exceptional Windsor Professional posted by: John Runjavac on 10/27/2000 at 8:47:06 AM
Anyone have an idea what a very clean silver 61 cm Windsor Professional is worth? I bought the bike from from the original owner. It's all Cmpagnolo except for the Universal Super 68 brakes, Cinelli Giro D'Italia bars and 1A stem. I replaced the tubular rims with clinchers but saved the Fiamme tubulars, installed new Universal brake hoods and Velox handlebar tape (that I got from Bicycle Classics before they folded). Any information would be appreciated.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   An exceptional Windsor Professional posted by Art on 10/27/2000 at 9:33:46 AM
For what it's worth, the Sheldon Brown site pegs a Campy Windsor at around $700. An interesting aspect of the Windsor is that they are often decalled and repainted to look like Cinellis. I'd hate to spend the bucks for a Cinelli only to find that it was a Windsor.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   An exceptional Windsor Professional posted by Keith on 10/27/2000 at 11:03:48 AM
Not to be a stick in the mud, but I think Michael Kone's "Wild Guesses" list, posted Sheldon Brown's site, is a bit high on the value estimates (perhaps one reason Kone has basically abandoned the vintage market to become a Waterford dealer is that the money and level of interest is fairly low). I see really nice-looking bikes sit on Ebay unbid, or unsold on various sites. The cyclingutah.com "classic corner" has, I believe, a more realistic outlook. Although it does not mention Windsor, I think it would fit in with the Atala/Bottechia "third tier," which would probably be more like $400-600. Remember, the vintage lightweight market is "thin," in Kone's words, and probably comprised mostly of a small fraction of the relatively few of us who were really into these things in the 70s and 80s. At some pount I wonder whether the value of anything other than the actual first tier (early Colnago, Cinneli, De Rosa and Masi, etc.) will really go up much, because when we're done, I doubt the next generation will share our facination with the fleeting bike boom era we loved so much.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   An exceptional Windsor Professional posted by Art on 10/27/2000 at 1:09:51 PM
I agree with you, Keith. I thought $700 was pretty high. If you think about it, unless there is some nostalgic factor, what collector is going to shell out nearly a $1000 dollars for a bike that honestly isn't going to appreciate and which probably will lessen in value due to the factors you mentioned. I keep coming back to the ride-ability factor. Am I going to be riding it or is it taking up space in the garage. I don't have $700 to invest in a bike that is going to sit around. I always ask this question and I never get an answer. In determining the Windsor's worth, what did you pay for it? That answer would tell me at least what one other person would spend on a Windsor. I bought a lower model for $40 and sold it for $40. I really don't know if was worth more. At the moment is was worth $40, but I wouldn't spend that for it today.

   Art & Keith are right posted by John E on 10/27/2000 at 7:21:17 PM
Yes, Windsor is third-tier, and therefore not particularly collectible. In fact, my second-tier Bianchi is probably worth alot less than $700. If it fits you well and meets your needs, keep it and enjoy the ride.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   An exceptional Windsor Professional posted by John Runjavac on 10/29/2000 at 9:20:28 AM
Thanks for the input about my Windsor. Even though it's beautiful enough to make me hesitate riding it, I think I'll take John E's advice, install my speedplays and enjoy the bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   An exceptional Windsor Professional posted by Keith on 10/30/2000 at 9:16:10 AM
Bravo! You will find yourself at no real disadvantage among the contemporary Ergo/STI titanium and carbon machines.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   An exceptional Windsor Professional posted by desmo on 11/4/2000 at 9:50:37 PM
Windsors were nothing more than cheap knock-off Cinellis made in Mexico. I worked in a bike shop and in '74 we had a Windsor and a Super Corsa that were identical in every respect as far as materials and components. The Windsor was tagged at $400 and the identically spec'd Cinelli was $800. I thought the Cinelli was a better deal.