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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   Wander posted by: Marco on 6/2/2000 at 7:35:46 PM
Ever heard of a Wander road bike? Definitely Italian-bred, old campy parts, sculpted chrome lugs, cottered cranks, probably late 60's-early 70's. What's up with this?

   component details, please posted by John E on 6/21/2000 at 6:56:00 AM
Interesting find, Marco. If the derailleurs are Campy Gran
Sport, it is probably early, rather than late 1960s. Are the
brakes center- or side-pull, and of what brand? Half-step
gearing, such as 52T/47T or 49T/46T chainrings, was popular
until the late 1960s and early 70s, when almost everyone
switched over to 52T/42T, and eventually 53T/39T. "The
Dancing Chain," by Berto, Shepherd, and Henry, may provide
additional clues regarding the age and origin of your bike.

AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Record posted by: Marco on 6/2/2000 at 7:25:48 PM
Please tell me about my Motobecane Grand Record--silver w/black trim, Campy Nuovo Record components (except brakes), Champion sew-up wheels w/Normandy hubs. I think it's mid 70's but not sure. The impressive thing about it is its incredibly light weigh-in--the tubing seems to be paper thin. What's up with this?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Record posted by Wings on 6/2/2000 at 11:53:12 PM
Motobecane made great bikes!
I have a "Grand Touring". It has Vitus 888 tubing and the bike is very light. You have better components and I think a much better bike!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Record posted by hs on 6/4/2000 at 8:35:00 PM
I actually purchased an MGR in 1973. It came with sew-up rims, campy record gruppo, brooks saddle. Color was exactly as yours: black on silver. The frame was reynolds 531 through and through. A lot of bikes would only have 531 triangles or a lesser level of reynolds (I think it was 501). But the MGR was 531 forks, tubes and stays. Great bike.

AGE / VALUE:   schwinn world posted by: frank on 6/2/2000 at 6:35:41 AM
my schwinn world ser.#c64013 has sturmey archer 3 sp hub what is it worth

WANTED:   Ron Kitching decals posted by: Bob Shadel on 6/1/2000 at 7:49:51 PM
I have a late 70's Ron Kitching bike with top tube decal which says Cylclassic. It is a full Campy bike, yellow with the Black Ron Kitching seat and down tube decals which have become unattached and crumpled. Does anyone know how I might obtain new decals??? It's a great old road bike -- was my first "good" road bike.

   RE:WANTED:   Ron Kitching decals posted by ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 6/6/2000 at 7:45:00 AM
H. LLOYD CYCLES! (In England)They have a web page with all the decal transfers they offer, also small bit parts. e.t.c. Type in "Cycles De Oro" and go thru until you find the restoration section and scroll down until you find them below the painter section. Good luck to you. LLOYDS is A- PLUS! 5 star!!!

   RE:WANTED:   Ron Kitching decals posted by Bob Shadel on 7/10/2000 at 7:40:26 PM
Thanks for reply -- will give them a try.

AGE / VALUE:   54 schwinn world posted by: frank on 5/31/2000 at 11:33:17 AM
i have a 54 schwinn world 3sp does anyone have idea of value

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   ID an old bicycle posted by: Russell McClure on 5/30/2000 at 9:11:28 AM
I have an old bicycle with a nameplate that says "Cooper

The rear fender says it was made in 1917 in Elmira, N.Y.

Does anyone know anything about this??

The wheels are trashed. It had an old Morrow hub which was
disintegrated since the bike sat outside for 80 years...

Stil have the original seat leather though...

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Cyclart is Great? posted by: Bruce on 5/30/2000 at 4:51:43 AM
I see a comment on Cyclart below and wanted to put in my highest recommendation. They cost a lot but the quality is unparalleled. They restored a vintage Eisentraut for me 10 years ago and it's unbelievable!!! See their web site (cyclart.com) for the latest in pictures. He (Jim) has been around since Masi USA and was partners with Mario the Master. Nothing they can't do, and I've bought from their vintage parts list at least five separate times with great results, they have a soft-copy version downloadable on the web page...

Cyclart is A+++, I'm sure others will agree!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Cyclart is Great? posted by ChristopherRobin on 6/1/2000 at 7:02:54 AM
I am glad you are happy with the work they did. Everything came out well, you are satisfied and a happy camper, good to go!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Cyclart is Great? posted by Dan Wyman on 6/2/2000 at 12:32:37 PM
I, too have had work performed by Cyclart. They do beautiful work, not only restorations but custom braze-ons and the like.
I highly recommend them.

AGE / VALUE:   Western Flyer posted by: Cindi on 5/29/2000 at 9:23:26 AM
I just picked up an old WF at a garage sale for eight bucks. It's all original, and in really good shape. The back of the seat says Made In England and the serial number is 38464 N WB, it also has a patent number on the kickstand, and under the seat there is a stamp that says Raliegh Factory Nottingham England. It is a three speed, and seems to have the same lines, handle bar style etc, as the Schwinns made around the early 60's. Anybody know how I can find out the year made? And value? I don't think I want to sell it, but am concerned about having it restored as I don't want to damage it anyway. It still has original paint, original decals, and rides beautifully.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Western Flyer posted by sam on 5/30/2000 at 6:58:12 AM
Cindi,if the paint is good advise to just wash the bike.The decals might be hard to get.I have a schwinn american with original decals that are impossable to replace.I plan to take the chain gard to a real good paint store and have the color read(specographed)for touch up paint.Also if the rear hub is a s-a you can date the bike by it.You can get more info on Raleigh bikes in the roadster bunch.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Western Flyer posted by ChristopherRobin on 6/1/2000 at 7:06:53 AM
Here we go again, more decals that are impossible to get. Excuse me while I pause to scream. Most of the old time folks who have the answers to our questions are not on the internet.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Western Flyer posted by Warren on 6/3/2000 at 11:27:29 AM
If the rear hub is Sturmey Archer...it should have a year and month stamped into it.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Western Flyer posted by Cindi on 6/6/2000 at 10:56:48 AM
Roadster bunch? Forgive my ignorance, but what is that? I have had lots of advice not to refinish, so I'm not going to do that, but would like to know an approximate value. I did have a decent offer on it a couple of days ago from someone who drove by and saw us outside with it, but am not anxious to sell it, unless of course the price is right and I have NO idea whether it is or isn't Thanks so much for the replies, any more help would be appreciated.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Steel treks posted by: Keith McClenning on 5/28/2000 at 5:29:49 AM
I am interested in steel treks and would like information about model series numbers. It seems to me that the -20 series are touring bikes, -60, -70,-90 are road/racing bikes. can anyone enlighten me. Thanks Keith

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Steel treks posted by Skip on 6/2/2000 at 8:37:02 PM
Hello Keith -
A snippet of history - The first Trek frame was the 900, beginning in about 1976. Mine is from the first year and has Columbus tubing (but may have been available in 531 as well). They made Frames only at first; bicycles came later. Initially Sport/touring geometry, racing later.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Windsor posted by: Adam on 5/24/2000 at 7:02:17 PM
I have a Windsor bicycle. The paint is badly damaged and it had been converted to a 3 speed style with Raleigh bars. I am in the process of turning it into a fixed gear as it was pretty trashed when I got it and no where near original. It has mostly Suntour parts and drop outs (some are chromed) and a Columbus tubing sticker on the frame. It looks like it says "Competition" as a model name. Can anyone tell me if it is all Columbus frame and if it is SL?

I will repaint it and remove the remaining cable stops. I had hears Eddie Merkx set the hour record on a Windsor and I would like to try and match the colors of this bike. Con someone direct me to a picture or let me know what those colors were?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Windsor posted by Eddy Fan on 5/26/2000 at 2:40:21 AM
Trust me Adam, Eddy did not ride a Windsor during his hour record! Yeah, it did have a couple of Windsor decals that he added when they offered him $150K to slap them on his Custom Colnago-made frame but it wasn't anything more than a money making stunt. I had a decent Windsor Pro with Columbus SL in '74... It was a Cinelli Supercorsa rip-off and the Campy dropouts were so misaligned I can't believe I walked out of the shop thinking I had purchased a bargin... Oh well, It was all NR except for the Universal Super 68 brakes. Not sure what you have there, but if it's a Mexican Windsor it's junk. Good luck, and see cycles D' Oro Classics web page for a pic of a decent looking Windsor Pro...

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Windsor posted by Adam on 5/26/2000 at 12:43:09 PM
I'm actually pretty happy with the frame all in all. I was riding it around as a track bike today. The alignment seems good and I really like the Chromed lugs. I didn't ever think Eddie was actually on a Windsor but I thought as long as I'm painting it I might as well paint it some classic colors. It's nice and without the drivetrin its pretty light. I got NR hubs and stuff, but had to get a moderen steel headset due to the stack height.

I like riding it so It's not junk anymore.

Can you provide the URL for page. I would like to see the bike.

It's also amazing that someone that won tours also set hour records...


   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Windsor posted by David on 5/29/2000 at 6:59:44 AM
In the 70's i was consideringbuying a windsor the mecahnics in Cal. said that the problem with windors was not that they were junk but quality varied greatly with each. One would be very ghood and the next would be junk

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Windsor posted by Keith on 5/30/2000 at 6:47:00 AM
I bought a used Windsor in 70s mainly for the Campy parts for another bike (I removed the brakes and other parts, replaced them with cheaper stuff, and later resold it). The brazing looked better than cheap Euro bikes. I could ride it with no hands without having to lean to one side or the other, and to me this means the frame was aligned acceptably well. If you can do the same on yours, then yours is probably one of the okay ones.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Windsor posted by Michael on 6/19/2000 at 10:02:03 AM
Eddy's Colagno was painted bright orange. Its not dayglo, but is pretty distinctive. Lots of the Eddy Mercx labled bikes were that colour. I saw an old EM bike in a junk shop on Saturday, and it was just another factory 10spd. These days of couse, Eddie only puts his label on quality machines.
I saw his hour record bike at a show. The frame looks pretty conventional road bike, and the components were all drilled to bits, as was the fashion.

AGE / VALUE:   Mid-fifties Hawthorne lightweight girls... posted by: Rif Addams on 5/24/2000 at 2:50:28 PM
Hi all!
I was recently given a girls Hawthorne lightweight, possibly a european. It had balloon tire rims on it that were binding (for obvious reasons). It has peaked fenders, and now an internal three speed set up from an old huffy I had lying around. The rims are 26"X 1 3/8" and look correct (size).
I will admit, I am Kustomizing this bike so originality isn't that big of a deal. But I would like to find some info regarding the Wards Hawthorne lightweights.
Any one got anything for me?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Mid-fifties Hawthorne lightweight girls... posted by Gordon on 5/25/2000 at 9:25:46 AM
According to the catalog reprint book, they were first introduced in 1950. They seemed to call them English bikes some years, Hercules occassionaly and Hawthorne lightweights other years. I have 2 of these bikes, both boys 26 inch, one is a 3 speed and the other a coaster.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Mid-fifties Hawthorne lightweight girls... posted by Rif Addams on 5/25/2000 at 4:48:40 PM
Hi Gordon!
Thanks for the info, I believe this bike was a fixed gear originally, but I don't really know for sure. That is purely conjecture on my part.
Either way this old gal is going to be a real sweet ride when I'm done.

AGE / VALUE:   1965/66 Legnano posted by: TR on 5/23/2000 at 7:05:39 PM
Does anyone have a good knowledge of Legnano bicycles from circa the 1965-66 model years? I have a model with the serial number FL 9784. It is in excellent shape with the exception of missing pedals and rear derailleur. It is green in colour with gorgeous chroming around the dropouts. The wheels are Cidneo extra hubs laced to ambrosio rims with db'd spokes. The crank is a chromed Legnano cottered piece. I need to know three things: The model of Campy rear derailleur, the make of pedals, and the original type of freewheel.

Any more info would be appreciated. Thanks.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1965/66 Legnano posted by ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 6/1/2000 at 7:08:25 AM
Please E-mail me and I will referr you to a friend.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1965/66 Legnano posted by paolo on 6/3/2000 at 12:31:59 AM
My brother used to have a bike like that of the same years. It had a Campagnolo sport with just one wheel and a Regina extra freewhel with three gears. I do not think the pedals are important.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Standard 500? posted by: B.B on 5/21/2000 at 8:38:13 PM
Has anyone out there heard of the brand name "Sekai"?
As far as I know she's made in Japan and she seems to be a high quality bike.She's a men's Standard 500 12-speed. Seems to be an '88. Right now I'm in the process of rebuilding her. She's an awful pretty little lady. Would ya tell me how much this baby's worth restored? Not that I'd ever sell her, ya understand.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Standard 500? posted by Keith on 5/23/2000 at 8:00:46 AM
Sheldon Brown's material at the Harris Cyclery website includes a page on Japanese bicycles. I'm not familiar with the brand, but my impression is that most Japanese bikes are not considered very valuable or collectable, though their quality is quite good. Moreover, the 1988 date is latish to be consided vintage. Plus I think that by 1988, the top-end road bikes were 14 speeds, not 12. If the components are top-of-the-line, such as Shimano Dura Ace or 600, then you might have something. My wife has an early 80s Dura-Ace/600-equiped Miyata Pro that I think stacks up against any Euro bike, and I have a Campy-equiped Lotus of similar quality. But the low- to mid-range Japanese bikes were imported by the millions, and if your bike is of that description, then it's not worth much in terms of re-sale value, though it might be a good, reliable rider.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Standard 500? posted by Wings on 5/23/2000 at 10:13:07 PM
Re: "Sekai"
Could it be "Sakae" or "Sakai" rather than the above spelling?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Standard 500? posted by mandy on 5/24/2000 at 4:20:05 PM
No,it's spelled S-E-K-A-I-.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Standard 500? posted by B.B on 5/24/2000 at 4:22:33 PM
No,it's spelled S-E-K-A-I-.

   Sekai posted by john.eldon@nctimes.net on 6/13/2000 at 8:02:31 AM
Sekai Royale (SR) made lots of cranks, stems, and other
components and made (rebranded?) Japanese frames for a few
years. I suspect it is a competent commuting or recreational
bike, but not a collectible.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by: Austin Boyd on 5/19/2000 at 8:35:28 PM
Have a Raliegh Professional 1977, blue, all Campy. Would like to get a sense for whether that frame will accomodate new STI shifters and Shimano 105 Ultegra, or should I sell it and move on. Tired of bending over to shift....

What is the market for a Raleigh Pro these days? Love the old girl, but would like to simplify the shifting now 23 years after I bought her.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Rob Ertoni on 5/20/2000 at 8:51:48 PM
You are in the wrong place, STI/Ergo is wrong and you have been brainwashed my friend. A Raleigh Pro in decent shape with decent NR components is worth about $1000 but still worth keeping! (look at the junk a grand will buy today!)Don't destroy it! Look into your heart and do the right thing.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by bernieh on 5/21/2000 at 8:01:41 AM
I recently converted a 1969 Bottechia to STI and love it.
I was told that the rear stays were to narrow, but it turned
out that they had enough flex to accomodate. In addition I
had to turn the Campy clamp on downtube shifter mounts to
hold the STI cable mounts, this was done with two bolts.
You can buy the 9 speed conversion kit from Performance for
about 180 dollars. You will also need a new rear hub. I
opted to convert to 700c wheels they were Forte/Open pro,
very nice for 150 dollars, also from Performance. If you go
this way your brakes may not fit the rim, although my Mafacs
did. You can make a drop hanger easy enough though, see
Harris Cyclery on the net.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Fred on 5/21/2000 at 6:43:52 PM
NO!! NO!! Please don't destroy a good original. You have enjoyed it for what it is for 23 years, now let someone else enjoy it. There are some very good bikes with the conveniences you want for what you could sell your bike for. Or better still, build a bike to your specs. I have and it is great fun.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by ChristopherRobin on 5/22/2000 at 6:41:37 AM
I agree with them, but if you must change things then at least save the origonal parts. When you want to sell it down the road the buyer will not care about your modifications and he/she will want it origonal. Save the parts, label them and box them up!

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Brian on 5/22/2000 at 10:17:59 PM
Def. stay away from that STI trash! The 'marketing generation' is the one pushing this technology for no real reason. Who really wants to keep their hands on the bars at all times? I find shifting fun just like a 5-speed in a car make it more sporty, STI reminds me of my wife's mini van... This site is called "vintage bicycles," I'm sure there are sites such as Shelton Brown's that describes this dirty deed (vintage to STI), let us keep vintage!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Keith on 5/23/2000 at 5:30:10 AM

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Dan Wyman on 5/23/2000 at 11:20:10 AM

I'd probably keep the bike as is and get another bike with STI. That's what I've done. You'll enjoy both, but STI is great, no question about it. I have Ultrega parts on my Klein, and I love the shifting; it's much more convenient than shifting on the downtube.

Anyone who's ever ridden a mountain bike knows that shifting on the bars is fun and efficient.

Dan Wyman

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Keith on 5/23/2000 at 12:26:22 PM
I'm tellin' you -- bar cons -- they ARE on the handlebars. Should be able to find them for $40 - $70 (check Campy Only, Bicycle Classics, etc. -- I think Rivendale has NOS ones). Compare that to about $1,200 and up for a decent 105-equiped bike, or the several hundreds you'd spend on a conversion. As for STI/Ergo -- it's appropriate technology for those who actually race, or for those who ride competatively at 20 mph or more in hilly areas. Otherwise, it's wasted technology, over-complicated, and not particularly durable. I have a friend who is on his 3rd set of 105 STI levers in 4-5 years. And the last time I rode with him his shifting was sloppy. I had an Ultegra-equiped Trek 5200 OCLV. Whopdie-doo! Sure, it was "fun" for awhile, but then I sold it and don't miss it at all. Seems like everyone out there has an OCLV Trek, a Litespeed, or a Cannondale. Your fine old Raleigh is unique among these glued and welded cookie-cutter bikes! Give me brazed steel and Campy (or other high quality) friction shift over anything else! But remember -- BAR CONS!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Fred on 5/23/2000 at 4:09:19 PM
Had enough Austin? Well, here is one more. I am with you on downtube shifters. I'm just not good enough to steer with one hand and shift down around my knees without losing my line. I am with Keith regarding barcons as a solution. I installed Shimano bar end shifters on my Fuji Allegro and like them very much. I can shift down by rolling the heel of my hand down over the RH shift lever. I shift up with my little finger. Trimming the shift is very easy also. The only disadvantage I can see is that the darn things get hooked on cables etc. of adjacent bikes in my garage. As Keith says though, in your case; BARCONS. Not to imply bias I also enjoy the Rapid Fire STI shifters on my Fuji DS.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Dave Shoe on 5/24/2000 at 8:05:01 PM
I just picked-up a 25-1/2" 1972 Raleigh Pro that's way too nice to daily drive. As you mention you might be interested in selling your ride, I would need to know the frame size to become interested.

I understand that the down-tube shifters are less convenient than modern handlebar shifters. They are, however, infinitely cooler than the new-tech stuff. I really enjoy shifting at the down-tube, partly because I realize it takes more effort and more sharply tuned reflexes, and partly because it takes me back in time.

As far as modifying your bike, I'd say, "Have at it", just so long as anything you do is fully reversible and you save all the old components (even the ones that break). It's my opinion that the vintage Pros have a class that doesn't weather technical upgrades very well. You can add all the modern whoop-de-doos, but it just makes the bike look like is a new-tech wanna-be. The classic, understated look of a highly-crafted pre-technology bike is again becoming a show-stopper, as more and more of the stunningly beautiful modern-tech bikes flood the showrooms and fewer of the old bikes can be found.

Just my opinion,

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Wings on 5/24/2000 at 11:20:53 PM
Suntour Barcon user comments:
1. I use two barcons on my Schwinn retro cruiser and wonder why I have rapid fire shifters on my mountain bike when I repeatedly have to shift on start of long downhills.
2. My favorite--a recumbent with 63 gears-- I use one barcon on my 3 chainrings and it is so easy to keep them trimmed!
3. I am in the process of installing SIS 9 speed barcons on a long wheel base recumbent. Flightdeck or rapid fire means many repeated shifts. This will allow for a smooth movement to the correct gear.
4. Everytime I see barcons on an old bike I buy the bike to get the Suntour shifters! Greatest thing since peanut butter!
5. To each his own! I must add for retro cruiser riders there is nothing like barcons on the end of that big handlebar! I live in hill country. I am also old and senile!

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Keith on 5/25/2000 at 10:17:33 AM
Wings makes an interesting point in #1 -- you can't do a "grand slam" shift with STI (from largest to smallest rear cog) in one smooth move, the way you can with friction. I too always look for Suntour barcons -- found my last extra set on an early 70s Japanese bike that was being thrown away by a neighbor! I confirmed that Rivendell has NOS barcons, though they are relatively late models that are friction/index. Go to the Rivendell site and read "a note about shifting." There are good reasons other than just vintage purity for staying with friction.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Wings on 5/25/2000 at 9:27:33 PM
Bike Nashbar, Catalog 148 Early Summer:
Page 62:
Shimano Bar Cons Shifters- Complete with cables and housing. Specify Model: 8 Speed (Ultegra) or 9 Speed (Dura Ace). SH-SLBC-(Model).............$44.95
www.bikenashbar.com or 1-800-NASHBAR
(1 800 627 4227)
Listen to Keith!!!!!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Austin on 5/27/2000 at 8:46:21 PM
Wow...I am impressed with the quality and the breadth of the comments to my request for help. After much consideration, I have decided to restore the frame through Cycl Art (760-599-1015). They provide original or better restoration for my minor scratches and assorted rust spots. I will keep the Campy, and will learn more about the Bar-Cons. For those who cannot fathom the need for STIs... I ride roads with steep berms and less than friendly drivers. Shifting on the down tube can (and has) result in loss of line control when running the edge of the road and has nearly cost me my life more than once. I am a fan of history but at some point maybe we also need to stay alive long enough to restore these grand old ladies. So, I will chase a few Bar-Cons, and maybe even build up a touring bike with STIs to round out my mountain and road bike pair. Many thanks to all who brought comments to this question. Austin Boyd 256-971-6640

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by Wings on 5/28/2000 at 11:31:45 AM
After reading about your road conditions, perhaps STI is the way to go. Everything is at your fingertips including brakes. Bar cons would still require hand movement away from your brakes. Rider safety has to be the top priority! However, I would ride other roads with bar cons! :)

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Professional 1977 posted by ART on 5/29/2000 at 6:52:30 PM
Boy....going to Cycl art for rerstoration could provide another long series of comments. I've got a couple questions... What did they tell you it will cost? and when did they tell you it would be ready? I'd like to know what you think of their work when you get it back.

AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by: tim w on 5/16/2000 at 9:22:42 AM
i recently came across a pair of bikes i assume are approx. 25-30 years old. i found a serial or prod. # on the rear left frame that reads K1631. i would appreciate any feed back estimating the age and/or value of these bikes. i am impressed with the seemingly complex 3-speed gear shifting mechanism and the fact each bike has an attached hand pump. if there are any bike historians out there that could give me any insight into these bike i'd appreciate it. maybe i am way off base but they just seem unique too me. thx. Tw

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by ChristopherRobin on 5/16/2000 at 10:10:47 AM
I have never heard of this name and it bothers me. I think I'm such a know- it- all and it bothers me to get stumped so often here. They sound cool! are they complete and in good shape?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by tim w. on 5/16/2000 at 11:57:36 AM
now you've got me thinking. the only place i saw "schwinn" was on the handle bar grips, which of course could easily be replaced. i did try and match the i.d. # i found with the charts available at old roads but that was inconclusive. perhaps its not a schwinn at all. the bikes are complete, there is some surface rust but nothing major. the bikes have a lot of neat features that just caught my eye and seemed kind of advanced for an old bike. the shift cable glides on a disk/pulley and attatches to a delicate looking chain which activates the gears within the rear wheel cylinder. i am not a huge bike buff as i have seen alot of this sites users are so please forgive my attempts at explaining myself in terms not common to this unique group. any suggestions on how i can identify these bikes? did "indian" the motorcycle manufacturer, ever make bicycles? thx for your reply christopher robin. Tw

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by Oscar on 5/16/2000 at 1:32:25 PM
The internal gear hub that you're tripping on is a marvel. Sturmey Archer made the most and the best. Possibly somewhere on this site you can find a schematic to stare at for hours. If the hub is Sturmey Archer, the date will be stamped onto it.

Nice find!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by tim w on 5/16/2000 at 2:13:39 PM
i love this site! i will do some clean up tonight and see what else i can feed you tomorrow. thanks for your help. i hope to talk to you tomorrow. Tw

   RE:AGE / VALUE:indian scout and princess? posted by tim w on 5/17/2000 at 7:34:52 AM
morning. christopher robin, oscar? i did some clean up last night and found the hubs are indeed sturmey/archer. as far as a stamped date all i saw in addition to the sturmey/archer logo was the g.b. patent no. and the swiss numbers as well. stamped below the logo and above the words "three speed" was the # 51. not 1951 just 51. could that be the year? i also noticed the words "guaranteed made in england, and enough remnants of the word indian on the vertical frame post. so apparently the hand grips were replaced as they say schwinn. so christopher robin, perhaps you still are a know-it-all, i just mis-informed you. the hand pumps are made by phillips of england and the leather seats by wrights. the seats look to be padded with horse hair? i am afraid to take the rear wheel off to start clean up due to the gear linkage. i am only used to the more simple stuff i used to tinker around on when i was younger. what should i do next? are these bikes of value? is there a bike manufacturer simply called indian, if so are they the maker of motorcycles too? as always any feedback would be appreciated. thx. Tw

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:indian scout and princess? posted by ChristopherRobin on 5/17/2000 at 8:33:02 AM
I did not think that Schwinn made a bike under this name. However Raleigh Industries in Nottingham, England did. In fact Raleigh made a whole slew of bicycles under many diffrent names. The #51 is the year 1951 and that was when the hub was made and probably the bike also. You have a Sturmey-Archer 3 speed hub The A.W. and it is a good hub but it is common. If it is marked "alloy" then the hub is a bit desirable. More common are the steel shell version. The Wrights seat is indeed stuffed with horsehair.This is a B-grade Raleigh bicycle but still a very nice bike and you have a matching pair is good condition. These go from 15.00 to perhaps 100.00 each. What did you pay for these? You did alright I guess. Do not let the linkage on the hub gear scare you! It is the basic A.W. hub and you can re-set it by: Putting the shifter in 2nd gear and making sure the indicator chain is screwed into the hub all the way. You screw the two couplings together and you will see that the tiny chain links are riveted to this rod. (This thing is called an indicator chain) you want to set it up so that the end of this rod is even with the end of the protruding hub axle. doing all this with the shifter in 2nd gear. The hub itself is best left to someone with experience. You can put some sewing machine oil inside the hub. Not too much, a teaspoon full. You do not want it to run out of the hub and be sure you do not get it on the rims or tires. You should get all three gears without any slipping. Also there is something you need to watch out for! Do not get up off the seat and really haul because these hubs slip gears IF IT IS OUT OF ADJUSTMENT. The thing will spin around and not catch any of the gears and if you are standing up, you could slam your crotch on the top tube and you want to avoid this kind of injury.The sales people always taught this adjustment trick to the prospective buyer but you are getting this second hand from someone who did not know this. This is very much a wonderful and trustworthy hub, millions were made and it is still being made only they finally fixed it so this can not happen. You can put diffrent cogs on this from a 14 tooth to a 22 tooth to alter the ratios. A 22 tooth cog is for hilly riding. You need to check out the huge, awesome website of our good friend Sheldon Brown. Go to the Harris Cyclery section and look at old Bikes, 3 speeds, Raleigh, and take your time and look at everything. http://www.Sheldonbrown.com There are many links and if you ever get wanting to overhaul the 3 speed there are tips. Do not raise the seat too high. Pull it out completely and then put it back in and be sure to observe the limit line. It is possible to get a alloy or an extra long seat post. Because so many of these were made it is possible to find replacement parts to keep it running forever. Cables, brake pads,indicator chain,tires, tubes,hub parts you can get from Harris and some things like cables you can get here from Old roads.com Enjoy the bike! I am not sure about the link to the Indian Motorcycle company with this one, but Raleigh did make Triumph bicycles, and other motorcycle names made it onto Raleigh's bikes. Motorcycle collector people grab any bicycle with a name associated with the bikes they collect just to have it.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:indian scout and princess? posted by ChristopherRobin on 5/17/2000 at 8:37:35 AM
There is a line on the end of the indicator chain. Any doubt, take it to a good bike shop.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:indian scout and princess? posted by tim w on 5/17/2000 at 1:39:48 PM
you guys are unreal. that is a ton of info. thank you. so you are quite sure its a raleigh, huh? you know better than i. actually i didn't pay anything for the bikes. i trash picked them. a family was cleaning out there aunts house who had recently passed. i saw the bikes on the curb and stopped to inquire. a gentleman said the auctioneer and st. vincents passed on the bikes. they really are not in bad shape at all. i just need to decide what i want to do with them now. i have had some experience with foreign toys. last fall i sold a 1961 sunbeam alpine i had had for 18 years. maybe i could use another project. with your encouragement and detailed directions i think i will start by removing the rear wheels and start some clean up. thx again. Tw

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:indian scout and princess? posted by ChristopherRobin on 5/17/2000 at 2:58:51 PM
I am surprised that St.Vincents passed up these. They must have no floor space for them.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by ART on 5/18/2000 at 7:24:34 PM
From what I could find out, there are two Indian bicycles. The American version, I believe, appeared in the teens, Early wooden track racers needed pace bikes, a motor on the bike made the pace bike faster. Thus motorcycles evclved from this line. Excelesior with the Schwinn connection and the Indian bicycle and motorcycle line. I've seen literature on a whole line of 28 in tired bikes, from racers to ladies bikes. In the first version of the Evolution of the Bicycle book there is a photo of a 1947 Indian bike with a tank (Pg.186) The English version, as Christopher said, was made by Raleigh. The question that I don't have an answer to is this: Is the English Indian related to the American Indian? An old guy who I talk with who knows a lot about this stuff thought that perhaps there was, that perhaps the English was a promo line in the fifties for the motorcycle company.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by ChristopherRobin on 5/19/2000 at 7:19:18 AM
I ran across a guy who can supply decals for these.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by Paul R. on 5/27/2000 at 6:13:14 PM
Although made by Raleigh, I beleive these bikes were sold through Indian motorcycle dealerships. Like the BSA and Triumph badged bikes you can expect to sell these for bit more than your typical brands of "english racers" due to the motorcycle connection.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   schwinn indian scout and princess? posted by tim w on 6/8/2000 at 7:10:18 AM
wow, i was so excited to see the conversation had continued while i was away. thank you art and paul r. for your valuable input. i think with this new info. i will now take the bikes from the garage downstairs to my work area. an area until now that was used solely for woodworking. now its going to be a bike clean-up area. from what i can make out of the indian deacal, it looks to be the same as the indian motorcycle logo. i still quetion the manufacturer though. i was at the sheldon brown sight and came across a shot of a "typical" raleigh dropout. its different from what i see on the indian scout/princess. and the number K1631 stamped on the dropout does not match any raleigh serial number archives. christopher robin, i would certainly appreciate getting the name of your contact who could get the indian decals. if i scan in some photos of the bikes, where could i post them for you guys to see? and what details would you like pictured, if any? am i getting to carried away with trying to identify the make? either way i am planning on doing some clean up of the bikes. thanks again. talk to you soon. Tw