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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   God's bike posted by: John E on 11/26/2001 at 3:53:46 PM
One of my early 1970s cycling buddies used to claim that "God rides a white Masi." Perhaps He is finally trading up to something newer, and selling His Masi as eBay item #1035411289. $1500 and counting ...


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   God's bike posted by Oscar on 11/26/2001 at 7:09:54 PM
I would have thought that He would ride a taller frame.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   God's bike posted by smg on 11/26/2001 at 10:19:31 PM
There's a song by Mark Cohen in which it is asserted that God would drive a silver Thunderbird. Now, what would be the bike rack to link the two. . .?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   God's bike posted by Joel on 11/27/2001 at 7:52:12 PM
I think he has lots of cars. Just today I saw a Buick and a Cadillac with personalized plates.

AGE / VALUE:   Carlton lightweight posted by: dafydd_williams@yahoo.com on 11/26/2001 at 1:44:38 PM
Not mine, just looking for info:


Does anyone know anything about pre-Raleigh Carltons? I just know that they were bought out in 1960.

    Carlton lightweight posted by John E on 11/26/2001 at 2:34:01 PM
I have never seen a c. 1950 Reynolds 531 decal in such good condition. As we all know, the Reynolds 531 or Columbus decal is the first thing to go ...

Nickel plating is indeed more durable than chrome, which is why the head badge on my Capo still looks great after over 40 years near the Pacific Ocean. Can one of our resident metallurgists tell us why chrome was so much more popular?

   RE: Nickel/Chrome posted by Eric Amlie on 11/26/2001 at 6:22:00 PM
I am surprised to hear that nickel is more durable than chrome. The old quality chrome jobs used what they called "triple plating". First a layer of copper, then a layer of nickel over the copper, and finally a layer of chrome over the nickel. Chrome is very hard, I would guess harder than nickel, but as to overall durability...? Many of the newer chrome jobs involve just plating the chrome directly on to the steel. You often see the chrome peeling off in sheets on these jobs. Nickel is what gives stainless steel it's rust resistant properties. Not sure if it also contributes to the toughness of stainless. Just some thoughts, I'm no expert in this.

   RE:RE: Nickel/Chrome posted by Mike Slater on 11/26/2001 at 8:48:47 PM
Chromium is what gives stainless steels resistance to corrosion. Generally, most stainless steels contain at least 10% chromium.

   RE:RE:RE: Nickel/Chrome posted by Jonathan on 11/27/2001 at 8:00:21 AM
Nickel/copper alloy (UNS NO4400) is exceptional in it's resistance to alternate wet and dry exposure to sea water.
The chromed surfaces that I've had near sea water, develop severe localized/crevice corrosion. I think chrome has its appeal in being glittery.
You won't see too many chrome anchor cleats. I find that if the chrome is polished, it is substantially more resistant to corrosion due to brackish
water and sea water exposure.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Carlton lightweight posted by Keith on 11/27/2001 at 4:23:41 PM
I've seen the exact thing Eric describes on Raleigh 3-speed rims made after about 1970. Single plate to cut yet another corner and save money. Yet very old Schwinn rims -- triplpe plated -- that look horrible can often be rescued with the right stuff (like what VVVintage sells) and elbow grease. I've been told another contributor to chrome quality of the lack thereof is the preparation and cleanliness of the surface. Specifically, any trace of flux will eventually lead to the chrome flaking off.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Carlton lightweight posted by Walter on 11/28/2001 at 12:29:17 AM
Neat bike.

Is that shifter in the right place there along the toptube?

   top tube shifter posted by John E on 11/29/2001 at 3:48:29 PM
Yes, I think it is, having seen several 1950s bikes with original top-tube-mounted rear derailleur shifters or S/A 3-speed triggers. The standard 1960s-1980s downtube shifters allow open cabling, for improved shift response, plus enhanced safety in a mishap.

AGE / VALUE:   UP FOR GRABS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by: Kevin K on 11/25/2001 at 4:43:28 PM
Hi. I've got a nice 1972 woman's Super Sport frame I'm giving away to the first caller. I do not want to ship it. Sorry. I live outside Toledo, Ohio. The paint is extremely nice. chips on the top tube a a couple here and there but otherwise WOW! Includes headset/crankset only. Kevin

MISC:   Information on a Moto-Mini bicycle posted by: Robin on 11/25/2001 at 4:40:11 AM
I bought a different bicylce today and was wondering if anyone had any info. on it.
It is a moto-mini Australian made womens frame. It has a hinged frame that allows you to fold it in half?

AGE / VALUE:   Cinelli for sale posted by: Steven on 11/24/2001 at 3:57:00 PM
I mentioned below about the availability of TA cranks and chainrings through bicycle specialties in Toronto. Check out the cinelli listed ontheir site. I don't know whether still available.


Cinelli model B.

This bike is in 'as new' condition. The frame has been perfectly restored by the renowned Toronto restorer Tony Beek. All parts are either NOS or in excellent condition.
Frame Cinelli model B.Size: 58cm (c-c)
Crankset Campagnolo Record, 170mm, 53-42T.
Derailleurs Campagnolo Nuovo Record
Pedals Camp. Record, chrome steel side plates.
Seatpost Campagnolo Record, two bolt type
Hubs Campagnolo Record large flange.
Bottom bracket Campagnolo Record
Headset Cinelli
Handlebars Cinelli model 64
Stem Cinelli 1A
Brakes Universal Model 61
Rims Mavic.
Tires Tubular.
Saddle Brooks Professional
Price $1995.00 CDN. ($1350.00 US)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Cinelli for sale posted by Warren on 11/25/2001 at 3:59:57 AM
I've seen this bike on display. I know it's a shameless plug but it's a great shop. I've had a couple of bikes restored by Tony Beek as well and his work is absolutely perfect. The Cinelli is beautiful.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Micro Minibike posted by: Kerry on 11/24/2001 at 4:16:51 AM
Would anyone have information on a micro minibike with an Oldsen & Rice 2-stroke motor? It has hard rubber tires and is approx 24" tall. Thank you.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Micro Minibike posted by JimW. on 11/26/2001 at 2:54:28 PM
The O&R "Chicken Power" motor was used on many bikes, usually added to the owner's own bike. O&R didn't make bikes, only engines. To identify your specific frame, we will need more information to go on.

FOR SALE:   many 80's road parts for trade.. posted by: wayne davidson on 11/23/2001 at 5:12:09 PM
Hi, I do have a list of NOS and second hand road bicycle parts for trade, I may sell, mainly italian but also some french stuff. Email me at wayne.collect@xtra.co.nz for a list and I will send it to you, its an email and not an attachment....regards wayne...

   RE:FOR SALE:   many 80's road parts for trade.. posted by Lamont on 11/26/2001 at 2:04:18 PM
Interested in your proce list, especially looking for triple crank

WANTED:   3ttt handlebars posted by: wayne davidson on 11/23/2001 at 5:08:15 PM
Hi, I am trying to locate a set of 3ttt handlebars from the 80's, they were made by 3ttt and have a flattened section next to where they mount on the stem, NOS preffered and also a large width, looking forward to any replies....regards wayne...

WANTED:   Re Rigi front deraileur posted by: wayne davidson on 11/23/2001 at 5:04:58 PM
Hi, I have just bought a Rigi road frame, I need help, I am after a front deraileur for it, any help would be good, I have found out the deraileur they came with is a Gian Roberts....regards wayne...

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Paramount aversion? posted by: Walter on 11/23/2001 at 1:04:13 PM
The '53 Paramount track bike went for $480. I'm not the most knowledgable but I'd consider that a somewhat low price. In comparison a Frejus track went for $622. Each bike had "issues" but I don't see why the Frejus outbid the Paramount.

The Frejus was a '58 but non-original components unless they made DuraAce back then. It did have its original chrome finish. The Paramount was all original but had been refinished, albeit professionally by CyclArt. Looking at Sheldon Brown's price guide I'd think the Paramount should do well "against" a Frejus.

No relation on either end to either bike. I follow bike collecting and am hoping to hear some feedback from some people more experienced than I.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Paramount aversion? posted by Chuck Schmidt on 11/23/2001 at 8:17:43 PM
Hi Walter,

My take on the Frejus and Paramount: I think it came down to the condition of the frames as they both had non-original parts. The Frejus frame was in original condition (all original chrome and decals). The Paramount had been refinished and didn't have decals or a headbadge.

Replacing the incorrect parts on both of these bikes is doable. Replacing the _originality_ of the finish on the Paramount is impossible. The one rule of collecting: You cannot replace originality! That is why long-time collectors place such a high value on bikes with the original finish intact, even if the paint and chrome are not in such wonderful shape. I will accept quite a bit of "patina" for the chance to see past the weathered finish to what the bike looked like when it was new. No matter how accurately a repaint mimicks the original finish and decals, in my mind it is still a "reproduction."

I didn't feel this way when I first started obtaining old racing bikes; I "restored" them to brand new condition. I now realize that I turned those bikes into "reproductions." On the other hand, some bikes are in such poor condition that there is no original finish to preserve so you have no choice but to repaint them.

Chuck Schmidt
South Pasadena, California
http://www.velo-retro.com (reprints, T-shirts and Campagnolo Timeline on site)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Paramount aversion? posted by Walter on 11/24/2001 at 2:26:37 AM
Thanks for the response Chuck.

I figured it probably revolved around the finish. So in at least 1 way, if I send my classic off to even a first-rate restorer I take away forever some collectibility value? Actually, makes sense I see the same thing all the time with furniture on Antiques Roadshow. See the poor guy's face when he finds out the restoration he paid so much for or perhaps worked so long on just COST him 10,000$.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Paramount aversion? posted by Walter on 11/24/2001 at 2:29:33 AM
At the risk of sounding obsessive, I still don't understand why that original Watsyn racer didn't draw a bid back in Sept.

   original paint posted by John E on 11/24/2001 at 3:25:30 AM
Chuck is right, of course, which is why I have advised various owners of old Schwinns, particularly 1960 Continentals with those distinctive knight's helmet downtube decals, NOT to repaint them. Paint is the main reason my 1960 Capo was a $20 yard sale find, whereas a 1959 Capo in pristine condition fetched $1500 at an auction a couple of years ago.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Paramount aversion? posted by Warren on 11/25/2001 at 4:04:21 AM
Feel the same way Walter...but I'm a sucker for old track bikes with wooden rims. Woulda bought that one if I was flush,

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   location of serial numbers for '70s Raleighs posted by: Lenny Dintenfass on 11/21/2001 at 9:55:29 PM
I own and ride a number of older English bikes, including a Raleigh Super Course and a Super Course Mk II. The latter has a serial number stamped underneath the bottom bracket, however; the former appears to have no serial number anywhere on the bike (it appears to be about a '73 model from its components). I've also noticed the same apparent absence of serial numbers on Raleigh Grand Prix models from the same era.

Any suggestions? I wonder if the serial numbers were just painted over, or perhaps these models didn't "merit" a serial number! BTW, I've had newer and fancier bikes (including carbon-fiber), but for my kind of riding (moderately-paced rides of 10 - 20 miles), I always prefer riding these Super Courses. They are lively enough to be enjoyable, but their moderate wheelbases (41" for S.C. and 40 1/2" for S.C. Mk II) are kind to a middle-aged rider's body (IMHO).

   serial numbers; old touring frames posted by John E on 11/22/2001 at 12:16:30 AM
I have seen serial numbers on the left rear dropout (Schwinn, Chicago IL), the upper seat tube lug (Bianchi), the top of the bottom bracket (Schwinn, Greenville MS), the upper portion of the seat tube itself (Capo), the bottom of the head tube (Schwinn, Chicago IL), and the bottom of the bottom bracket (various). Have I missed a spot, anyone? Except for Otto Cap stamping the seat tube (and denting it a bit in the process!), everyone stamps or engraves the number into a lug, dropout, or other heavy-gauge part of the frame.

   in praise of old touring frames posted by John E on 11/22/2001 at 12:25:47 AM
I know what you mean about older steel touring frames. I enjoy the contrast between my 1982 Bianchi and my 1960 Capo; each has its place and purpose. Since I don't race, the Bianchi has as stiff a frame as I care to ride; it is quick, fun, and responsive, but reasonably comfortable. The Capo, with its classically long fork rake and long, pencil-thin stays, is delightful on long slow distance rides or level cruises, but it is too whippy for aggressive hill climbing or sprinting.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   location of serial numbers for '70s Raleighs posted by Jonathan on 11/22/2001 at 7:28:33 AM
Maybe they went on break, just when that one was coming down the track. You check the seat tube carefully?
My Bottechia ('66) has a faint stamping on the seat tube just below the seat stays, it runs vertical. I have to look hard to see it.
All three of my Raleigh racers have the serial on the BB (2 record aces and 1 gran prix). I've been commuting on a Peugeot mixte (a la UO-8) and it's very smooth. Really is an under-rated machine, considering it was a reclamation project. Kenda cheap tires and steel rims are not a big deal for the flats. I sure wouldn't want to push it up a hill, to be sure. Another Peugeot mixte is cro-mo steel that I use for longer runs.
The Gran prix is a bit more responsive than the records. They have the 2030 steel, too. Real nice rides.

   S/Ns on the seat tube posted by John E on 11/22/2001 at 7:01:18 PM
Interesting -- your Bottechia's S/N is stamped in the same fashion as those of every Capo I have encountered. Mine is very lightly stamped, making the first digit hard to discern. It makes alot more sense to stamp a lug than a tube.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   location of serial numbers for '70s Raleighs posted by smg on 11/28/2001 at 10:50:41 PM
You might want to go to the "Retro Raleighs" site and click on "Determining the Age. . ." which is a description of the serial numbers through the years. They might be able to answer a question about an un-serialed frame. I recently bought a Raleigh that had been rebuilt with a new fork and repainted. I hoped it might be a Super Course, but the form of the serial # indicated that it was really a Gran Sport, which pleased me greatly.

AGE / VALUE:   Juy 543 derailleur posted by: Tom on 11/21/2001 at 7:50:25 PM
I cannot believe a rear derailleur for over $700. Reserve not yet met. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1036384744 Cyclo has a lot of nice stuff every week. I think after a year at this he could retire on the profits of his bike stuff. His items often go for hundreds of dollars.

   old Simplex posted by John E on 11/21/2001 at 8:48:53 PM
The derailleur in question is historically significant and in nice shape, as are many of Cyclo24's other components. Hillary Stone of the U.K. sells parts of similar quality and collectibility. I do not know how these guys have managed to find such great material. Of course, here in the U.S., Larry keeps coming up with 1960s Schwinn "lightweights" which look as though they have never been ridden.

Keep looking, everyone! There is still some good stuff out there.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Huret Allvit posted by: Mike (the Bike Dork) on 11/21/2001 at 4:51:09 PM
I'm working on a newly acquired Schwin Super Sport and am changing the drive train. Gone is the heavy Ashtabula crank and in went a nice Tioga 3-piece crank adapter.

My question has to do with the derailleurs. I can swap in some Campy ders from the parts box, but will the Huret Allvits on the bike shift acceptably well? Weight aside, are the Hurets good quality derailleurs?

    Huret Allvit posted by John E on 11/21/2001 at 8:55:56 PM
The H-A tracks a typical midrange (14-28, 13-26, etc.) cog profile as well as a SunTour slant planograph, but it is VERY hard on shift cables. (My first Bianchi had H-A with a 52-47 / 13-26 half-step. I broke one or two rear shift cables per year. I think I have broken only two or three shift cables on ALL of my other bikes, combined.) The matching Huret front is OK for double chainrings, but probably cannot handle a triple.

When I commuted by Varsity, I kept the H-A, replaced the TwinStiks with SunTour downtube levers (and a shim around the undersized downtube), and replaced the 5-speed 14-28 freewheel with a 6-speed 14-28.

WANTED:   handlebars for 26" lightweight Rollfast 1963 posted by: Sylvie Ball on 11/21/2001 at 7:40:25 AM
This ol' red bike is in need of handlebars (ideally ones that are as close to the original bars as possible) suitable for use with John Bull brakes. Bars need to be 1" diameter touring style, not drop, preferably chrome plated. Also need a source for 26" x 1 3/8" tires. Under the Sturmey Archer marking on the rear hub, it says, AW (skip down a line) then 63 10. Does this mean the bike was built in 1963? What's the AW and the 10?
Thanks in advance,
Sylvie Ball NYC


   RE:WANTED:   handlebars for 26 posted by Stacey on 11/21/2001 at 11:58:37 AM
Hi Sylvie! No input on your bars. However with regard to your hub; the 63 does indicate the year... the year the hub was made. Generaly the same year as the bike. The 10 indicates the month, in this case October, which being late in the year could have been put on a bike made in early 1964. AW is the model of the hub. The AW seems to be the most popular of all. If you go to sheldonbrown.com and pke around a bit you'll find a plethora of information on the S/A hubs. Have fun!

In the Wind,

   RE:WANTED:   handlebars for 26 posted by sam on 11/22/2001 at 10:48:06 PM
For the tires try K-mart or Wal-mart you'll find those tires anywhere.

AGE / VALUE:   Paramount Tandem posted by: RW Badley on 11/21/2001 at 5:52:21 AM
Hi all! I have a question about the Paramount tandems. We have one, I have not been able to find the serial #, thought it would be on the bottom bracket. It has the curved rear seat tube. I have seen several of the Paramounts on E-bay, and some of them do not have the curved seat tube. Why the discrepency? Is the close coupled frame earlier or later? Any thoughts on where my serial # should be? This bike is set up really cool, and rides like a dream. Thanks for any info,,,

   waterfordbikes.com posted by John E on 11/21/2001 at 2:28:23 PM
Either the waterfordbikes.com website or an email directed to them may bring some answers. I think the curvy seat tube is a c. 1974 thing ...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Paramount Tandem posted by John Hawrylak on 11/22/2001 at 3:22:28 AM
The 75 catalog shows the Paramount tandems with the optional "short coupled" (AKA bent seat tube) frames as well as the touring Paramount (P10/P15). The short coupled frmae provides a racing frame handling for a touring bike. It places your weight further back. The 73 catalog does not show this option. I do not have a 74 catalog.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Paramount Tandem posted by John Hawrylak on 11/22/2001 at 3:22:37 AM
The 75 catalog shows the Paramount tandems with the optional "short coupled" (AKA bent seat tube) frames as well as the touring Paramount (P10/P15). The short coupled frmae provides a racing frame handling for a touring bike. It places your weight further back. The 73 catalog does not show this option. I do not have a 74 catalog.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

   RE: Short coupled frame posted by Eric Amlie on 11/23/2001 at 3:30:48 PM
The '74 catalog does not show the short coupled frame on any of the Paramounts either. Must have started sometime during '74 or in '75. It does show this frame on the Sprint though.