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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

MISC:   site update posted by: christian on 2/12/2001 at 7:23:24 PM
when you get there, hit refresh to view new contents. then update your bookmarks. thanx, christian

MISC:   Not quite an emotional rollercoaster posted by: Oscar on 2/12/2001 at 6:34:59 PM
All this between appointments today:

I got turned away by a resale shop manager in North Yuppieville who wouldn't even show me the ballooner in the back of his shop. Yeah, but he wanted to sell an old People magazine with Farrah Fawcett and Lee Majors for a bundle. (Talk about concentrating on a quality product to make your living.)

I looked in on a small shop that had helped me out on some small parts two years ago. Hanging in his window is a 57 or 58 Continental 10 speed. Suicide front lever! Some guy had gotten it from his father and was ready to thrash around on it. Rescue! Not for sale, but the shop owner (2nd generation)loves it because it was sold by his dad forty-some years ago. He also hangs his dad's Oscar Wastyn track bike from the 40's. Great show, and the guy could have spent hours talking about old Schwinn's with me.

Concentrate on quality.

   The Schwinn's a 1960 or 1961 posted by John E on 2/13/2001 at 6:47:48 AM
Hi Oscar,
Actually, Schwinn produced 10-speed Continentals with Simplex suicide shifters in 1960 and 1961. I have seen these "first-generation" specimens sell for $45-832, depending on condition.

   RE:The Schwinn's a 1960 or 1961 posted by Oscar on 2/13/2001 at 3:04:55 PM
I knew you would catch that. The owner knows his beans, but maybe this will require further interrogation. The frame is brazed, not electorforged. There is also a three-pin cottered crank. The crank has a double chain ring. They look like 52 – 49. I guess with that small spread, you wouldn’t use the suicide shifter very much.

I don’t know what a Simplex rear derailleur looks like. The derailleur on this bike looked like a Huret – a heavy looking chromed appliance.

   Aha -- it is a pre-1960 Varsinental! Very nice! posted by John E on 2/13/2001 at 6:27:08 PM
OK, Oscar, it is indeed one of the collectible earlier-generation Varsinentals from the 1950s, rather than one the familiar electroforged, Ashtabula-cranked tanks that first appeared in 1960. I did not realize they ever got to 10 speeds with the before 1960. That heavy chrome appliance sounds like an aftermarket Huret Allvit, which was a nice derailleur if you did not mind the weight or frequent cable replacement schedule. I love half-step gearing with a 3-tooth chainring drop, because it yields near-perfect gear ratios with a 2-tooth progression in back and shifts well with almost any older front derailleur. (I now use a 48-45-34 mountain bike triple on my Peugeot.)

   I'm confused posted by Art on 2/14/2001 at 6:15:52 AM
Now I'm confused. I thought the 60 and 61 Continetals had the Simplex suicide shifter and Tour de France rear derailleur. The tires were 26" I thought. Weren't these the first years for the Continental. Now, did 50's Schwinn bikes have suicide front derailleurs? When you call them 50's varisentals John, what did Schwinn call them? The Allvit sounds aftermarket but wouldn't the original have been a Tour de France...thus did Schwinn use the Simplex derailleur combo on 50's bikes? When did 26" tires give way to 27" for the Varsity and/or Contintental?

   that's because the subject is confusing posted by John E on 2/14/2001 at 12:29:48 PM
Hi Art,
Varsinental experts should feel free to jump in to help or embarrass me ...
pre-1960: Schwinn applied the Continental name to various European-style (lugged frame, cottered crank) lightweight road bikes, such as the specimen Oscar described. I had never before heard of one of these with 10 speeds, but suicide front shifters were common on French bikes of the 1950s, and these Schwinns used lots of French components.

1960: Schwinn introduces the familiar mass-produced, heavy electroforged Varsity/Continental models, with suicide front derailleurs, Tour de France rears, and Weinmann sidepull brakes. The Varsity had 26" wheels and 8 speeds, and the Continental had wing nuts instead of Campy-style quick release.

In 1961, Schwinn changed the Varsity to 10 speeds and introduced the 15-speed Super Continental, with the Simplex suicide shifter and half-step plus grannie gearing. In 1962 and 1963, the 15-speed variant, now with Huret derailleurs, was called the "Superior."

By 1963, the Varsity had 27" wheels, and the Simplex derailleurs had given way to Huret Allvit. The Continental eventually got center-pull Weinmanns and true QR wheels.

By 1967, Varsinentals had the familiar bike boom era features of chrome spoke protectors, chainguards, TwinStick shifters, and 1.5-step "Alpine" (52-39 / 14-28) gearing.

   RE:that's because the subject is confusing posted by Eric Amlie on 2/15/2001 at 7:30:05 AM
Not to say it's neccesarily correct, but here is what the catalogs show:

8 speed Varsity and 10 speed Continental were introduced in June of 1960 (from Pridmore/Hurd book). I think the Continental had 27" wheels (I'm not absolutely sure though). The Varsity definitely had 26" wheels.

No change for 1961. (possible the Simplex Tour de France rear derailleur was replaced by the Huret Allvit though. This is in Berto's "Dancing Chain" but I don't have it here right now to look it up).

1962: Varsity became a 10 speed. Suicide front shifter replaced by Huret downtube mounted shifter and cable operated front derailleur. Both deraillers are now definitely Huret. Continental loses fancy "Knight" decals. Varsity still has same down tube decal except it now reflects change to 10 speed. 15 speed Super Continental offered. This was just a Continental with a Huret 40/47/52 chainwheel set. 15 speed Superior also offered. This model had the fillet brazed 4130 chrome-moly frame, alloy rims, gum hoods on the brake levers, and booties on the shift levers. Gearing was the same as the Super Continental.

1963: Varsity gets 27" wheels and the downtube name decals change. Continental unchanged. Super Continental is replaced by the Sierra (basically the same bike as far as I can tell). Superior unchanged except that full chrome fork is replaced by chrome tipped fork.

1964: "Sprint" equipment introduced. Large spoke protector. Gearing changes from half step (47/50 Huret chainwheels) to Alpine (39/50 Sprint chainwheels). Varsity gets a different seat tube decal. Superior no longer offered but Super Sport (10 speed with same chrome-moly frame) is introduced. Last year for the Sierra 15 speed which gets a 30 tooth freewheel cog to replace the former 28 tooth for a 36 inch low gear.

This is all off the top of my head without my reference materials at hand so there may be other details I haven't listed here (fork type and paint & trim treatment, headbadge changes, etc.) There were also freewheel gearing changes in the '60-'62 models that I would have to look up. If anyone cares about some detail I can look it up.

Again, most of this info is from the catalogs which doesn't neccesarily mean it's so. For instance there is at least one case of a Super Sport with a '62 serial number.

   I knew I could count on you, Eric! posted by John e on 2/15/2001 at 10:08:08 AM
Thanks, Eric. I would add that eBay recently featured a (1961?) 15-speed (Super?) Continental with the suicide front shifter. I suppose someone could have swapped out the crankset and chainwheels. It may also have come out late in the model year, after the catalogue was printed.

The $832 1960 Conti on eBay appeared to have 27" wheels.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Info wanted on a "Capa"??? posted by: Mike Slater on 2/12/2001 at 12:35:44 PM
I recently inherited a 10 speed and would like any info on it.

The badge on the stem tube says "Capa" in fancy script.

There is what appears to be a badge of a knight holding a flag, with a sword at his side on the seat post.

Very fancy cut-out lug work.

531 sticker from the 50's

This would seem to be a rather high quality bike - probaly from the 50's. Any info would be deeply appreciated.

Mike SLater

   That's "Capo," actually. Ausgezeichnet! posted by John E on 2/12/2001 at 5:34:34 PM
Please check through the archives, Mike, for one of my January postings. You have a fairly rare Austrian Capo from the very late 50s or very early 60s. Please check out the website at www.capo.at, and do send an email to Harald ("Hary") Cap, the company president and son of founder, Otto Cap. I think he is willing to start a vintage Capo owners' web page.

According to Hary, with whom I have exchanged several cordial emails recently, those fancy lugs were hand-made in Otto's factory. Wilkommen to the Capo owners' club! (There are not many of us around, at least in the U.S. Peak worldwide production was less than 5K units/year, and the original production line closed in 1970. Hary started the new line of high-end custom bikes in 1980.)

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Older Road bikes posted by: Joe on 2/12/2001 at 11:57:06 AM
I recently purchased a Zanella 12 speed from an individual. Zanella is the name of a local bike shop (I live in Italy courtesy of the USAF). I have not been able to find out much about the bike yet. It has lugs on the frame with the Cinelli logo and a plate on the bottom bracket that also says Cinelli. The front triangle is made up of crimped Columbus steel alloy tubing. The Columbus decal appears to be one from the early 80s. The bike had a mixed bag of parts including a Campy Nuovo Gran Sport rear derailleur and Record rear hub. Does anyone have any information on this bike? I also have the chance to pick up a Panasonic S1000 for about $50. Anyone know if this is a good price? Paint has some chips and slight rust but appears to be complete. Both bikes are 53cm frames.

AGE / VALUE:   1965 Schwinn Continental for $3Kon eBay posted by: John E on 2/12/2001 at 11:29:00 AM
Since the best price I ever saw for a Varsinental was $800+ for a near-perfect 1960 model, I doubt anyone will come with the $3K ante for this one.
eBay Item #1111190200

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1965 Schwinn Continental for $3Kon eBay posted by Wings on 2/12/2001 at 4:54:48 PM
I just cannot imagine that high of a reserve on that bike!
A picture is not even available!
0 Bids! Don't bid on it -- contact me, I may have one almost as good in the shed for $2500!

MISC:   EMOTIONAL ROLLER COASTER PART 6 posted by: Art on 2/12/2001 at 8:53:23 AM
My plan was to spend Sat cleaning up the assorted parts and frames that were cluttering up my studio. I've got to get rid of some of this junk. Sometimes I'm not very smart. I forget I have a bike stand and spend hours hunched over a bike. I forget that if I torgue down to hard I can really aggrevate a shoulder messed up from trying to remove too many frozen seat posts and stems. When I woke up Sunday, I was in some significant pain. But I figured my regular ride for java and bagels would stretch me a little and I'd feel better. Warned not to forget the bagels as I left the house, I figured returning with a dozen was better than six even if I had to cram the rear pocket on my vest with them. I took a route through a neighborhood which was scheduled for large curbside trash pickpup this week. I saw a bike on top of a pile of trash. Is that a lugged frame? Is that a Brooks saddle? Are those Campy parts? I was living Keith's dream. On further inspection the bike was a Cilo Pacer, '73 on the saddle, low end parts, put except for Weinmann brakes all campy. I'm on my suspended mt. bike. I'm five miles from home. I can't leave it.I can't stach it anywhere. Then I asked myself What Would Christopher Robin Do? (WWCRD?) I had to save this bike though I figued as rusty as it was, I'd never get the parts off. I slung it over my shoulder and pedalled home. Afer a mile my back was killing me, but I kept going. When I got home my wife and son weren't impressed. Where are the bagels? she asked. Oops. When I pulled the bagels from my vest, they were flat as pancakes. I retreated to my studio to lick my wounds and assess the Cilo. Three pin crank with chain rings rivetted together, pedals, valentino front and rear, downtube shifters...hardly worth the pain I thought. But the saddle is a savable pro and there is this cool clamp on bottle cage and gee everything is coming off this bike with a minimum of effort.I even got the stuff off the frames that was frustrating me Saturday. And really I think the bagels tasted pretty all squashed like that.

   RE:MISC:   EMOTIONAL ROLLER COASTER PART 6 posted by Keith on 2/12/2001 at 9:36:18 AM
A Cilo was my third road bike -- 1. Varsity, 2. Gitane Interclub, 3. Cilo, 4. Mercian. The Cilo was my first Campy bike, which I got in 1972 when I started to get serious about racing. I later got a deal on the Mercian frame and switched the components over. I stipped the paint off the Cilo, found chrome underneath, and made a really fun fixed gear bike that I wish I still had (of course). I have yet to find anything Campy in the trash or at a garage sale. I have slung junkers over my shoulder just as you describe, riding with them in extreme discomfort. But finding Campy by the curbside -- even Valentino -- wonderful! I eagerly await my turn.

   and all I got was a Varsity posted by j.eldon@abac.com on 2/12/2001 at 11:43:31 AM
Valentino derailleurs are the Edsels of the Campy line, in more ways than one, since Valentino was Tullio's son. However, your Cilo certainly beats my latest dumpster find, a rusty yellow 1975 Schwinn women's Varsity, which I lightly repaired and then decided to leave on my own curb for someone else to take. Sorry, Varsinental fans, but we already have 10 operable bikes and four frames at my house, and I needed to declutter a bit!

   RE:and all I got was a Varsity posted by Wings on 2/12/2001 at 5:02:59 PM
You did well rescuing the bike!
Your priorities are excellent! Donuts and bagels can always be found!!!
I have never found campy parts on a bike -- I keep looking!
After about three days of stripping bikes I get the "killer elbow"! But it is all worth it!

   RE:RE:and all I got was a Varsity posted by Oscar on 2/12/2001 at 6:31:13 PM
I've been known to field-strip a curb bike for interesting parts. I've never found a frame worth hefting, but I would if it was worthy. Your story reminded me of "The Old Man and the Sea". (Nothing age related slights intended.)

   D'oh! posted by Oscar on 2/12/2001 at 6:53:25 PM
Proofread before posting!

   RE:D'oh! posted by Wings on 2/12/2001 at 10:35:02 PM
Two years ago I had a call from a homeless friend that the University had dumped a large number of lost and unclaimed bikes into a huge roll off (not hub) dumpster (semi trailer size with at least 8 foot walls. I took my tools and drove the 80 miles. Climbed in the dumpster which was in the middle of a field and went to work. I bet I spent 5 to 6 hours stripping bikes. I was actually walking on bikes. It was one of my more memorable days! I used a crankset from that dumpster on a bike last week!
My homeless friend would paint frames and build bikes. That is how he survived. He was a great bike mechanic and we did lots of trading of parts. Since the KMart cheap cruisers arrived he has moved on and I lost contact with him.
That was the best day of Dumpster Diving I ever had!!!!!

FOR SALE:   Im parting out a pile of 3 to 12 sp.stuff posted by: todjob on 2/11/2001 at 10:02:40 PM
some old schwinn/huffy/murray ect ect 1970 or so and up
send me a list or a pic. of what-u-want prices are cheap shipping is soso

AGE / VALUE:   for Keith in Columbus posted by: sam on 2/11/2001 at 1:13:46 PM
Keith,I got on this web site and seems to be some nice people from your area,you might want to check it out--sam http://www.geocities.com/jjegg63/index.html

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   for Keith in Columbus posted by Keith on 2/12/2001 at 9:25:53 AM
Thanks! I may actually have sold a few middleweights to one of these guys a couple of years ago.

MISC:   Bicycle Billboard posted by: juano on 2/9/2001 at 6:52:33 PM
The Bicycle Billboard is back up. Here's the address:
(Oldroads, love your website too!)

AGE / VALUE:   Speak up about spokes, PLEASE! posted by: ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 2/9/2001 at 12:03:25 PM
Somebody please speak about spokes! French spokes n.o.s. in the box, more than one brand and more than one box. I don't know what they will go to, these are like 8 1/2 length, they are chromed and in pretty yellow boxes. Is there any call for French spokes?

I guess if somebody was doing a restoration on a French machine they would want these. I do not know what to offer for them.
There are Union spokes too, N.O.S. in boxes nothing special, I mean nothing stainless or double butted, (not anymore) I brought it home where I will never use it myself.

Everywhere in this old shop I see old, used Schwinn crank hangers. They are greasy, old and worn. I do not understand it, why were these saved? You can get these N.O.S. and the quality is the same. very strange!
What does a box of spokes run today? I never have seen French Spokes in any other shop and I suppose that should tell me something.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Speak up about spokes, PLEASE! posted by Oscar on 2/9/2001 at 5:05:45 PM
I spend $20 for 36 stainless straight gauge spokes.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Speak up about spokes, PLEASE! posted by sam on 2/10/2001 at 12:31:17 AM
I relaced two sunrace high flange hubs on a mexican winsor.the old man at the bike shop said no one had ask for those in 20 years,paid $8 for the box of 100 union spokes--sam

FOR SALE:   1950s Carlton Frame posted by: Keith on 2/9/2001 at 6:36:01 AM
Ebay item # 1110695537. Not mine, but I know the seller and he's a good guy. So far no bids and minimum is only about $72, and as little as $45 to ship from GB. Even if you're not interested in buying, go look at it and admire those fancy lugs.

   RE:FOR SALE:   1950s Carlton Frame posted by Art on 2/9/2001 at 8:32:32 AM
This is a great frame and will build up into a nice rider. The badge is also a Carlton variety I have not seen before.

   RE:FOR SALE:   1950s Carlton Frame posted by Bill H on 2/11/2001 at 7:43:47 AM
Keith, there is the frame for your fixed gear dream bike!

AGE / VALUE:   C.J. Higgins posted by: Lorraine on 2/8/2001 at 9:01:56 AM
I bought this vintage looking bike with all orginal equipment including front light fender. Can anyone direct me, as to where I can get educated, as to what I have???

   RE:AGE / VALUE:J.C.Higgins    posted by ChristopherRobin@starmail.com on 2/8/2001 at 4:03:16 PM
I think you meant to say J.C. Higgins. Do an archive search here.

MISC:   Commuting posted by: Oscar on 2/8/2001 at 8:51:25 AM
I’m back to being a weekend rider, and it’s not settling well. 184 pounds this morning.

I started driving a different route to work, along the same mellow street that I rode when there was daylight enough to commute. For the past three days, I saw the yellow clad cyclist on his commuter mountain bike. He has a sturdy frame, and 26” wheels with street knobbies. He also has a big headlight that looks like the type of lamp on an old BMW motorcycle. I’ll bet that he’s been at it all winter!

Keith, how as your car-less commute been working?

   RE:MISC:   Commuting posted by Keith on 2/8/2001 at 10:40:42 AM
I've been riding about 3 days each week, down from 4-5 in the summer and fall. My normal commute is 28 miles round trip on a bike path, and at times it gets too icy to ride, and then I use city streets (yuk!). Other times I ride a bus, and once in a while my wife loans me her car. I've been happy with a road bike (mid-80s Trek 400 with 531 frame), using 700 x 32 Avocet cross tires, which have a deep reverse tread that works well on snow and mud, but is pretty smooth on pavement. I use a 15w Vistalite powered by 2 NMHD battery sticks (but don't buy this set). I carry a change of clothes and packed lunch in a large Carradice saddlebag. I've re-learned the right clothing for winter cycling: polypropalene and wool, and have acclimated well to riding in the 20s (I live in central Ohio, and our winter has been mild so far this year -- no zero or below zero temps). I've had the good fortune to hook up with 3 other cyclists who leave downtown Columbus and head in the same direction I do at the same time, and we ride out together a couple of times each week. In fact I plan to have them all over for Chili and beer after the commute in about a week. All in all I'm very happy to get out on the bike and get some exercise. (And I lost a few pounds over the holidays.)

   Avocet cycle-cross tyres posted by John E on 2/8/2001 at 2:53:47 PM
I have been using a 28mm (the widest the frame will take) Avocet cross tyre on the rear of the Peugeot and have been very pleased with it so far.

I currently use a clip-on Cateye headlight with two NiMH C-cells and obviously would need to upgrade my lighting system if I did a significant amount of night riding. (My usual one-way commute comprises two 2km run/walk/jogs and a 15-minute train ride, although I occasionally cycle the 12 mile distance, instead. I keep one bike in my office for midday errands, etc.)

   RE:MISC: Commuting Hell! posted by Warren on 2/8/2001 at 5:26:35 PM
First the bad news...20 cm (8") of snow right at freezing point made for the worst posssible conditions in Toronto today. The snow would stay on the ground but melt as it landed on you. I've never been so wet or cold after a six km ride in my life. Couldn't wear goggles or glasses either. This ride would not have been possible without studded tires. Even the couriers were bailing out today.

Now the good news. Got a repsonse from a bike shop owner I've been working on for a couple of years. An invitation to look at a few vintage frames in his basement...a couple which are old track frames. Oh please, please, please...

   RE:MISC:   Commuting posted by Mike Stone on 2/8/2001 at 5:31:37 PM
Oscar, I've been year round commuting in Wisconsin for about six years. Even this winter with all the snow, I haven't used my car even once in the past month.

The most surprising thing to me is that so few people bike in the winter.

The secret, from a machine standpoint is to have several bikes for different winter weather. I have a single speed girl's bike with fenders and nobby tires for icy-slushy days that are going to be slow-riding days anyway. The salt eats bikes, so the old %5.00 single speed takes the abuse

For heavy snow days, I use a 21-speed mountain bike. I need the gearing flexibility to get through the snow. On snow days, the salt is at a minimum, so I don't have to worry so much about the salt eating up the derailures and cables.

For windy days with dry pavements, it is a Schwinn Varsity (with fenders).

Clothing is a science all to itself. You can figure that out - just like cross country skiing.

Get on your bike and Ride.


   RE:RE:MISC:   Commuting posted by Oscar on 2/8/2001 at 7:44:53 PM
I've got excuses up the wazoo...

I'm a salesman, and a suit-and-tie guy at that. My clients are all over the city and suburbs, and those stoggy old guys don't have bike racks at their offices.

Enough of the bad excuses. The only good one is that I work from 8:00 until 6:00, but it's still dark at 5:00. From spring until fall, though, I've got it made. My commute is 10 miles one way, and I can make it in 30 - 45 minutes. Best of all, I have a shower next to my office, and a private closet to shash a suit, shirt and shoes. I really can't wait!

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Commuting posted by Oscar on 2/9/2001 at 7:05:04 AM

What part of Wisconsin are you slushing through?

   RE:MISC:   Commuting posted by JN on 2/9/2001 at 1:41:13 PM
Check out the website www.icebike.org for information about winter riding.
Much of the information is geared towards recreational snow
riders, but there is useful info for commuters. I live in Michigan
and only took the bus to work three days this winter, never drove.
Studded tires help with the ice, and I would recommend using a winter beater.

   Slush Commute posted by Mike Stone on 2/9/2001 at 7:32:31 PM
Oscar, I am slushing through Northeast Wisconsin.

By the way, fellows, a kinda fun websight for bicycle commuting, winter biking, and other topics is:


Check it out. I think you will enjoy it. You will be happy to find other guys that are slush commuting. You will also meet people from southern California that ride in the sunshine even in February. That hurts.


   RE:MISC:   Commuting posted by sam on 2/10/2001 at 9:27:40 AM
Keith,have you checked out the Cen. Ohio bike club web site?they out of columbas http://www.geocities.com/jjegg63/index.html sam

MISC:   Pictures from Larz Anderson 4th National Bike Show and Swap posted by: VVVintage Vintage Bicycles at OldRoads.com on 2/8/2001 at 4:41:10 AM
We've just added pictures and award info from last year's
"Larz Anderson 4th National Bike Show and Swap".

Click on the banner above.

Also, if you are near New England, Jim Huntington's show is THIS WEEKEND!

Jim Huntington is holding his show and swap in Monson, Mass on Rt. 32 at
Memorial Hall on Main St. Set up time 7-8:00am Date: Sunday February 11th,
call Jim Huntington Days: 413-283-4113
Nights: 413-267-5230 Call up until 10:00PM
If not in leave a message and Jim will call back/ Swap spaces $20.00 call
early as this show will fill up fast. A Judged bike show will also be held
with awards given.

FOR SALE:   NOS Titan fully adjustable stem posted by: Ray on 2/7/2001 at 3:08:51 PM
Look at my auctions under the seller name Wheelman@nac.net and you will find a killer Titan stem. Totally NOS found in an old bike shop. I mean this is really a beautiful piece that can adjust up down or in and out just like Major Taylor invented.

   RE:FOR SALE:   NOS Titan fully adjustable stem posted by Warren on 2/7/2001 at 7:38:06 PM
If you would like us to look at your auction for an item, could you please just post the item # so those of us with slow connections don't have to waste time? It would be considerate.
Thank you.

   RE:FOR SALE:   NOS Titan fully adjustable stem posted by desmo on 2/8/2001 at 4:05:17 PM
Even better yet, post the URL of the item to cut out yet another useless page load! I always find it mildly annoying when the seller only supplies the item number. Why make it harder (or slower) than it has to be?

   RE:FOR SALE:   NOS Titan fully adjustable stem posted by Art on 2/9/2001 at 8:39:46 AM
Looking through the list of stuff for sale and seeing all of the red phantom parts for sale, I remembered a strand on another location about parting out complete bikes. A rather emotional item it seemed to me, reading the posts at the time. At what point to the parts of a bike out sum its whole?