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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   It's Peugot summer school for me! posted by: ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/22/2001 at 12:01:54 PM
Oh! Garaage sale and they have a bike! Gold decaled Peugot, faded orange it's a " Spirit" model mens, lightweight with 27 X 1 1/4 wheels. Simplex plastic deraiulur, shimano parts 12 speed Selle San Marco saddle looks to be the best part. Really faded. cost 650.00 15 years ago now he wants $150.00 I looked it over and decided not to bite. I need to go to "Peugot bike class 101" I left it there and will go exploring the other side of the pond this afternoon.
All it said was Spirit and to me it looked like a low end model but I could well be wrong.
There will be other bikes.

   RE:Peugeot-spotting posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/24/2001 at 8:01:34 AM
It is best to look at every web site you can find. I get up close and study it and I look over the componets really well. Don't forget to check if it has a bent fork also, don't be afraid to haggle all they can say is "No"

   Peugeot-spotting posted by John E on 4/23/2001 at 6:58:57 PM
Peugeot (deliberately?) made it difficult to distinguish one model from another. Each several-year era has a specific look to the decals and paint, and this spans across models. The PKN-10E has a small black script "competition" decal on the top tube, where a 1980s PX-10 would read, "super competition." The frame tube composition sticker is a good point of differentiation, if it has survived. A PX-10 will have a decal, in French, of course, with the 531 printed diagonally. On the PKN-10E, the 531 is printed horizontally, with the words, "3 tubes renforces [butted]." Check out Russ Fitzgerald's interesting PX-10 website, which you can cross-link from either sheldonbrown.com or cyclesdeoro.com. I hope this helps. To determine the quality of a given Peugeot, I usually have to get close enough to note its component ensemble.

   Peugeot pix posted by John E on 4/23/2001 at 7:03:16 PM
I posted a few pictures of my PKN-10E under bicycleforum.com's photoalbum heading ("half-step plus grannie"). I have seen PX-10s and lesser Peugeots with the same paint colour and graphics. Many of the earlier PX-10s have chrome stays, but the later ones do not.

   good call, Christopher! posted by John E on 4/22/2001 at 8:15:16 PM
Since I have owned several Peugeots, I am allowed to say that most of them are nothing special. (Sheldon accurately calls Peugeot the "Schwinn of France.") Thus, the price sounds too high for what you described. The top Peugeots of the early 1980s were the PKN-10E Competition (butted Reynolds 531 main triangle) and the PX-10 Super Competition (full Reynolds 531). I paid $140 for my PKN-10E a few years ago, and that was perhaps too much, but it has given me good service, with its "just right" balance between performance and comfort. My opinion: Peugeots are good, cheap, pleasant transportation; only the best-preserved PX-10s are or will be serious collectibles.

   Need a lesson in Peugeot posted by Ray on 4/23/2001 at 2:41:43 PM
I have always had a hard time distinguishing between the Peugeot models. Can you tell me how to spot a PKN-10 bike quickly or do you have to get really close up to do it?

AGE / VALUE:   Sew ups posted by: Oscar on 4/21/2001 at 8:00:38 PM
I've got a nice set of sew up wheels for the Frenchie. I've never used sew-up tires before, but I've always wondered, how do you fix a puncture on them...or do you. The whole idea of sew-ups seems fragile and expensive. At any rate, I'm going to be fast on the track this summer.

Also, what kind of glue do you recommend, and for that matter, glue remover?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Sew ups posted by nick on 4/21/2001 at 10:38:26 PM
yes you can I would suggest renting a bicycle repair book to show you how because its seems to be a diligent tediuos process wich is ment to make you wast time

   Sew ups posted by John E on 4/22/2001 at 8:26:00 PM
Hi Oscar,
There are several good "totally tubular" links from Sheldon and bicycleforum.com. I used to cut about 3" of the cross-stitching carefully with a small hobby knife, pull out and patch the affected segment of the inner tube, then reassemble and close with a much simpler stitch. It was a good time-passing activity while watching television or while engaged in social conversation. I learned the repair procedure by reading the excellent instructions that came in a small tin "tubular tyre repair kit," which I bought at my LBS. You must use the special rim cement or risk the disaster of tyre roll. I gave up sewups about 20 years ago, but they did serve me well for the decade before that, when the Michelin Elan was the only high-performance clincher available. I loved the road feel and low rotating mass of my tubular wheelset, and nothing says "serious cyclist" more emphatically than a folded-up spare tyre tucked under the saddle. Have fun! I have a real love-hate relationship with tubulars, as I suspect alot of other folks do.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Sew ups posted by Keith on 4/23/2001 at 11:33:09 AM
Wow -- this brings back memories. I have a couple of bikes with sew ups -- but I NEVER ride them. Two fond memories: dramatic explosions, and tire cement all over my hands at the side of the road. Some still absolutely swear by them -- that the ride quality cannot be matched by any clincher. I think there actually may be some truth to that, but the aggravation isn't worth it for me. I suppose if you have lots of money and can by them a gross at a time, okay. One thing's for sure -- you can make a really light set of wheels with them -- lighter than all but the most trick contemporary stuff. Geez, you're inspiring me to use them again.

AGE / VALUE:   wood to metal posted by: mel on 4/21/2001 at 6:15:06 PM
My friend nick an expert collector thinks what i did was crazy. heres what i did. I finally found a 1920s bike that had all the parts. The original white tires didnt pump up so i bought new ones at the hardware store. they didnt fit so i took 27 inch wheels off of a sears fine speed put them on. the bike, i decided, will have to become a five speed. i took the deraller off and everything else off of the five speed that had to do with gears and brakes and with a little help from a drill put them onto the older 1920s bike. The original cracked saddle was thrown out and i put a gel seat saddle on, the wooden junky pedals that should never had been put on a bike were tossed, thre handle bars are neat so i kept them but put on the five speed ones. The original white and black paint is scratched and i was told by my friend not to mess with it. Would the value of the bike depreciate if i sray paint it a different color? i only paid a $100 for it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   wood to metal posted by Oscar on 4/21/2001 at 7:58:03 PM

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   wood to metal posted by Jon on 4/22/2001 at 3:32:01 AM
If you bought the bike to ride, I'd say you can get a "beater" for $20 that'll
run great. If you want to have a collectible, I'd say keep it as original as possible, including the wooden pedals!
Sounds like a "home made" bike that somebody put together. I mean, wooden pedals
can't be a major innovation from a reputable maker. They'd snap right off. If the
wood was just the friction rest, then maybe. How does/did
the wooden pedals attach to the crankarm anyway?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   I bought 3 posted by: Fred on 4/21/2001 at 5:40:13 PM
I have added 3 bikes to my fleet this season. They are; a Bugatti, and pair of Schwinns. The Bugatti Touring Sport is a 10 speed with a 2 top tube mixte frame. A very nice riding bike with alloy rims, hubs, stem, cranks, and other bits. I cleaned it up and painted the fenders. It is very presentable now.

The Schwinn pair, model; World Tourist,mens and lady's, are truly fine in copper tone paint. To most folks they appear to be new. The only flaws are a shallow dent and some small scratches in the rear fender of the lady's bike. the man's bike is a 10 speed, the lady's bike is a 5 speed. Both bikes have front free wheeling cranks (Shimano FFS). The Schwinns will take their place with a group of my bikes that are in exceptional condition. This group of bikes are kept in my family room where I can enjoy looking at them every day.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   I bought 3 posted by Oscar on 4/22/2001 at 4:56:12 PM
I'm starting to warm up to mitxies. They actually can be quite elegant. Especially with center-pull brakes with the long straddle cable.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   I bought 3 posted by Fred on 4/22/2001 at 5:45:36 PM
I forgot to mention the serial numbers on the Schwinns. They are: men's, G0383, the ladie's is G0483. Can anyone shed any light on these SN's?

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:  Mixte frame bikes posted by Jon on 4/23/2001 at 5:27:24 PM
Scwinn had Panasonic and Giant as "branded manufacturers" according to a history
article that I read somewhere on the site or on one of the links. Mine (World Sport) is a 12 speed
that was almost brand new after 15 years of being a "yes-I-got-a-bike-bike" probably leaning against a garage wall.
No fenders or anything hanging off the frame except shifters and brakes. Suntour
rear and front tranny; brakes are light wt. side-pull with no name. The crank has "Custom" stamped on each arm.
It rides great. It is not a busy bike either so you can enjoy the scenery a bit.
Whatever the cost was new, I'm sure that it exceeds expectations.

   made by Giant of Taiwan in 1983 posted by John E on 4/22/2001 at 8:33:28 PM
I recall an earlier post about Schwinns of this class. Someone thought the G denoted that well-named Taiwanese company, Giant, and the digits were MMYY date codes. Are there some longer serial numbers elsewhere on the frames?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   I bought 3 posted by Jon on 4/22/2001 at 11:34:33 PM
Yep, the G is for "Giant". The 03 is for march and the 83 is for 1983. Is it a World Sport model?
I have one and it is a smooth riding bike. No rattles or squeaks after a tough run on the trails.
If it/they are not beaten up (check the wheel bearings) then they are better than the 'spensive bikes if you ask me.
Happy ridin'.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:  Mixte frame bikes posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/23/2001 at 9:31:37 AM
I hear these are expensive to make and are almost as strong as a mens diamond frame

WANTED:   Nervar 128mm BCD chainring posted by: John E on 4/21/2001 at 12:20:07 PM
I am looking for either a 50T or a 44T aluminum chainring, in decent, serviceable condition, with Nervar's proprietary 128mm 5-bolt circle. I am willing to pay or to trade either a 52T, a 45T, or a 42T ring (your choice) with the same BCD, or, if you prefer, a 130mm or 110mm ring that meets your needs. I am also willing to buy or trade if you want me to take a Nervar Star crankset with the 50T or 44T ring.

   RE:WANTED:   Nervar 128mm BCD chainring posted by Bill Putnam on 4/25/2001 at 12:44:56 PM
With a little bit of filing, or with a mill, it doesn't take
much to get a standard 130 mm ring to work. I did this on
my Nervar Star crankset to replace the original 45 T small
chainring with a 42 T. Worked fine until the crank cracked.

   Nervar 128mm BCD chainring posted by John E on 4/25/2001 at 6:26:31 PM
Hi Bill -- Yes, you had mentioned that to me when I bought the 45T from you, and my next move will probably to get out my father-in-law's drill press and have a go at the mounting holes of a 130mm 44T ring. (One mm of elongation on each should do the trick, and leave it useable with a 130mm crank, as well.) I could just use my spare Bianchi/Ofmega crankset, for which I have both 52/44 and 50/42 ringsets, but that Nervar Star really looks classy and correct on the Capo, with its Brooks Pro saddle, ornate lugwork, skinny stays, and first-generation Weinmann centerpulls. Thanks for posting!

FOR SALE:   Simplex alloy chainguard posted by: ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/21/2001 at 11:03:15 AM
Simplex alloy chainguards, I have two. make offer

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rene Herse posted by: dickshooter on 4/21/2001 at 6:37:21 AM
That Rene Herse on Ebay closed at $5300 and still didn't meet the reserve! Wow! Saw one in Warwickshire a few months ago. A man's model that looked better than that one. The shop wanted 850 pounds for it, which I thought was high! Should have bought it, had it air freighted over here, and made myself some money!

WANTED:   Campy thumbshifters posted by: Walter on 4/20/2001 at 2:25:40 PM
I put this on the wanted board also. I like the idea of keeping the Basso I mentioned as all-Italian as possible. To that end some Campy thumbshifters would be peachy. Friction type is mandatory. Actually only need 1 but realize they'll come as a pair. Got some you're willing to sell? I have accumulated a pretty good pile of surplus parts so a trade might be workable but I'm definitely willing to buy.

MISC:   Need help identifying older schwinn posted by: Greg Groth on 4/20/2001 at 12:18:32 PM
Digging around a bike shop basement the other day. I stumbled accross an older schwinn lightweight in pretty bad shape. I wasn't going to give it a second look, when I notived it had brazed on downtube shifters, not clamped. The frame appears to be identical to a Varsinental except for this and a different chainring set than the Varsinentals used. Bike was painted over (cables, seat, calipers, and all) with black Rustoleum. The headbadge wasn't the oval, it was round. From looking at the indentations on the badge, it wasn't the old Paramount / Schwinn logo either, the red one with the cross they're using now. I can't find my catalogs, but am guessing this one is early seventies, but I can't figure out which model. Any help out there?

   RE:MISC:   Need help identifying older schwinn posted by Kevin on 4/20/2001 at 12:53:38 PM
Hi. Sounds like you found one of Schwinns early fillet brazed frames, poss. an old Super Sport. Does it have Huret forged dropouts? Titan stem with Sport handle bars ? Leather seat? Sounds like a bike to research, and poss. restore. Kevin

   1962-3 Varsinental posted by John E on 4/20/2001 at 3:07:17 PM
If you are lucky, Kevin is right. If you are unlucky, I am right. If you are interested, I posted a 1960 Continental head badge picture in bicycleforum.com's photoalbum section, along with several other pictures of two 1960 Contis that a couple brought to my office. If it has flat-bladed forks, it's definitely a Varsity.

I am still trying to piece together Varsinental history, relying heavily on Kevin's, Eric's, and Mike's various postings, but I think the 3+6 bolt Huret 52-49 half-step chainrings were used on the 1960 through 1963 Varsinentals. The 1960s and 1961s had Simplex Competition ("suicide") front derailleurs, the 1963s had Huret Allvit, and I am not sure which were used in 1962. Please post the serial number (probably on the left dropout): assuming we have the right general time period, the initial letter is the month, and the first digit after it is the last digit of the production year. (How's that for a Y-2K problem?)

   black Rustoleum saddle posted by John E on 4/20/2001 at 3:13:57 PM
Black Rustoleum on the SADDLE, too? That's right up there with some of the idiocy (including the price, shifters, and crankset) of that Dunelt on eBay!

   RE:MISC:   Need help identifying older schwinn posted by Greg Groth on 4/20/2001 at 4:57:54 PM
First 2 digits are F2. May '62? It has 27" wheels, rims do not match, are not schwinn. Hubs are both Normandy, oval hubs which seems right. Front derailleur is not suicide, and is the same type I have seen on every other varsity I have touched, don't know the model though. Crank is what has been referred to as a 3+6 as far as I can tell. Rear derailleur is gone, no help there. Original color was blue. Definately flat bladed fork, with the chrome piece that sits on the top. Seat is not leather, but one of those vinyl covered, spring loaded (the long springs that run front to back, not the two big coils) and reminds me of an old Ideale. Head badge says Schwinn Chicago, is round and has an S in the center. Headset is the deluxe version that I've seen used on Continentals, not on Varsitys, where the adjusting cone is actually a cup. Handlebars are steel, and seem somewhat narrow. Stem reminds me of an english stem, is chrome plated, and doesn't look like any varsity stem I've seen before. The rear freewheek is 5 spd, appears to be an atom, and I did not count the teeth.

From what it sounds like, I have a '62 Varsity. I'm not sure, but I think I can get most of the black paint off without serously hurting what's underneath. Does anyone know what rims Schwinn was using at this period in time? I know that this was the start of the 27" wheel, but don't know if Schwinn was making their own rims at this time or not. I'll probably end up fixing this one up, because I don't have a lot going on,

   bingo! May 1962 Varsity posted by John E on 4/21/2001 at 9:10:01 AM
I think those fork blades clinch it. Yes, it is a 1962 Varsity. The correct rear derailleur would be a Huret Allvit (with "Schwinn approved" label? -- help me, Schwinn experts!). The correct rims would be steel S-7s, 27 x 1-1/4. Yes, they would have used an Ideale saddle. The earlier Varsities used nice tensioned leather saddles, the later ones, padded vinyl.

I have argued before that 1962-3 were the Varsity's finest years. I have never liked Simplex derailleurs, particularly the Tour de France and Competition, and I hated the big chrome chain guards, spoke protectors, stem shifters, brake extensions, and other heavy junk on the later Varsities.

Please keep us updated on your progress. If you can nondestructively strip that top layer of paint, you will be way ahead!

   RE:MISC:   Need help identifying older schwinn posted by Eric Amlie on 4/21/2001 at 4:02:04 PM
According to the catalog a '62 Varsity should have 26" rims. It's possible that they switched to 27" sometime during '62. The '63s definitely had 27"s. It is also possible that it is a '63 bike that they used a frame from '62 to build. They did use up old frames this way but you would think it would have been a frame from later in '62 than May. It also sounds like there is a collection of miscellaneous parts on the bike so it may have gotten changed around over the years. John, I have several of the Huret chainsets from these early bikes and the small chainwheel on all of mine is 47 teeth, not 49. I will have to check this to be sure but I think the ones on my '62 Varsity are 47/50 and I know for sure that the ones on my '63 Continental are 47/52. I think the 49 tooth small chainring might have disappeared with the front suicide shifter. I will double check the Varsity large chainring and post again. Rear derailleur was definitely Huret Allvit (no Schwinn approved on it).

   Varsinental gearing posted by John E on 4/21/2001 at 5:16:09 PM
Makes sense to me, Eric. 52-47 / 14-28 makes a near-perfect 10-speed half-step, as does 52-49 or 50-47 / 15-25 or 14-24. The 1960-1 bikes needed narrow-range gears front and rear, because of the severe limitations of both Simplex derailleurs -- hence the 52-49 / 15-25 I saw on Kelly and Kristie's machines. Schwinn probably changed to 14-28 when they replaced the Simplex with Huret Allvit. My 1962 (Huret Allvit) Bianchi was geared 52-47 / 13-26 (9 unique ratios, with large-large redundant).

   RE:MISC:   Need help identifying older schwinn posted by Eric Amlie on 4/21/2001 at 10:57:49 PM
Rechecked the '62 Varsity chainset. It is 47/50. The crankarms also have a more rounded appearance than the later "lightweights". They look more like the crank arms on the "heavier" Schwinns.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Found my Holy Grail...almost posted by: Warren on 4/19/2001 at 5:53:17 PM
I finally got into the basement of a shop that has had one owner since the late forties...well actually he passed on and his wife tends it now. The past couple of years I've been fixated on CCM track bikes and fixed gear club bikes and thought I might be able to at least source out some bits and bites. There it was, covered in about 60 years worth of dirt and grime...an NOS CCM track Flyer frame and fork, tied together with baling twine and the delivery tag still tied to the headtube. Gulp. Calm down. "I'd like to buy that one...". And so it came to pass. Funny thing though...it wasn't perfect...shop wear had taken some toll on the paint...moisture got at a rear stay and even odder is that it looks like it was a factory "second". One of the welds on the seat stay/seatube joint was off and the pinstriping down the stay veered offline. And finally there is no headbadge and no holes for it. Now I do know that they used to rebadge bikes for other brand names but...so what.

Anyway, I'm as happy as a bike guy can be. I also got 4 Solite rear track hubs, a pair of NOS Philco frame mounted brakes, (never seen a front before), two pairs of Blumels, Bayliss Wiley BB and finally a Cyclo "B" derailleur and shifter . I just don't know what is missing from it...cables and what? Are there any exploded diagrams for Cyclo derailleur out there?

Fingers crossed folks...it does happen.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Found my Holy Grail...almost posted by sam on 4/20/2001 at 6:07:02 AM
Tell me more....in fact tell everybody more.Write an artical,do an oral history on this lady,lisen to this frame.Ask questions...please.---sam

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Found my Holy Grail...almost posted by Chuck Schmidt on 4/20/2001 at 10:16:29 AM
I have some reproductions of Cyclo service manuals for working on the derailleurs. See my website at http://www.velo-retro.com

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Found my Holy Grail...almost posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/20/2001 at 1:56:06 PM
send me your postal address and I will send you out a free copy of some pages I have

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dawes Debonair posted by: Pete on 4/19/2001 at 7:58:07 AM
I have a Dawes Debonair cycle from about 1957 with a crack in the original plastic mudguard - has anyone had any success in repairing these cracks?
Also the frame is listed as being made from 'Kromo' tubing - anyone know what quality this was? ---- many thanks, Pete.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dawes Debonair posted by Pete on 4/19/2001 at 8:10:46 AM
Forgot to add - can anyone tell me what would have been the correct Simplex 4 speed derailleur when this bike was made?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dawes Debonair posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/19/2001 at 4:56:31 PM
I have some Blumels Popular in white for 27 inch wheel. These are newer model. Exactly what do you have? I want to say super glue for the fix but wait and see what others say.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dawes Debonair posted by sam on 4/20/2001 at 6:20:27 AM
Pete, we're talking 34 year old plastic here.fixing for diplay only or to be a rider?My 48 Chrysler has a lot of plastic on the inside.I live with the cracks in the steering wheel,but had to cast a nob for the shifter.I'd get replacements for every day use.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dawes Debonair posted by Pete on 4/23/2001 at 9:41:06 AM
Thanks for the responses. Yes, fixing to ride occasionally. I need to repair a split before it gets any longer.Pete.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Decal Protection pt 2 posted by: Walter on 4/19/2001 at 6:36:15 AM
To continue a thread from a week or so ago I went the hobby shop route to find a protective clear coat for my repro decals. ModelMaster by Testors worked well and for 3.99 I'm satisfied. Not as good as disassembling and spraying but alot easier.

On a related note my projects are finally finished. A 531 with N Record that was sold by Charlie Harding in Cal during the later 70s (thanks for the info John)that's for my wife and a mid 80s Basso with S Record that I pieced together mostly thru Ebay and Campy-Only sources. I will post pictures and the Basso might be interesting for another reason. Due to a motorcycle accident some years back I have to wire shifters and brakes to work from the right side of the bars. I have got it down to where it works really well with vintage equipment. To be honest it'd probably work better with modern Ergo/STI but that's not what I wanted. If you know someone who could benefit from such mods or just curious drop me a line and I'll be happy to share ideas/sources.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Decal Protection pt 2 posted by Oscar on 4/19/2001 at 8:09:08 AM
A few years back, Rivendell Bicycle Works featured Kelly "Take-offs". These were extensions that mounted on the h-bar where you could put your shifter levers. They were an answer to STI/Ergo, allowing one shift while on the handlebars. They could also be made to work for one-handed cyclists.

How did you handle the brake levers. I would consider tandem levers, which control front and back on the same lever. (You probably already use them, as it's an obvious solution.)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Decal Protection pt 2 posted by Walter on 4/19/2001 at 9:54:28 AM
Quality Bike Products sells an aluminum coupler that joins the 2 brake cables so that you have in effect tandem levers. Pulling the rt lever operates both brakes. Prior to this I was content to go fr brake alone. Riding sport motorcycles teaches you to rely on your fr brake and be wary of the rear. This at least partially translates to bicycles as well. The biggest problem is figuring out how to install it. It's a good bet that even the LBS mechanics have never used one and they come w/o directions of any type. Once I (my wife actually) figured out how to install I've been very happy with the results. Maybe not as good as independently pulling both levers, but if I could do that I wouldn't be making this post, but better than a single brake alone.

I like your shifter idea. What I did was mount a cheap thumbshifter on the top of the rt side of the bar for the r der. and and use an old Suntour bar-end for the fr. der. Works pretty well. Of course some might cringe at a no name thumbshifter pulling a Campy S. Record derailleur but such is life. Actually I'm sort of hunting for a quality friction shifter just so I can get a cleaner handlebar wrap. My cheapo has the screw end sticking out past the metal band that goes around the bar. On a new Univega I use an indexed SIS thumbshifter and the Campy Ergo remains for the rear. I haven't yet "coupled" the brakes on that bike. I think the aero style routing will be harder than the old "cables up in the air" style of my vintage bike.


   coupled brake controls posted by John E on 4/19/2001 at 1:50:08 PM
Here in San Diego, the QBC brake cable coupler is very popular with the bicycle polo crowd. They typically ride mountain bikes with a single chainring, a twist grip shifter, and one brake lever, leaving one hand free for the mallet.

How do you synchronize your brake calipers, Walter? I think I would want the front to close just before the rear does, except on a long descent, where I would like to be able to drag just the rear to prevent heat buildup and fading in front. This is the main time I use the rear brake, other than as emergency backup if I were to snap the front cable. Sheldon has a good discussion regarding why he advocates front-brake-only cycling, and why one can stop just as quickly with just the front brake as with both. At Bikecology, I had two upper limb amputee customers. One used a tandem dual-cable brake lever, but I never could convince the other that he would be MUCH safer connecting just the front brake, instead of just the rear. This is but one of the many dangerous cycling misconceptions held by John Q. Public.

   RE:Different coasts/different strokes posted by Walter on 4/19/2001 at 2:45:43 PM
Bike polo? Sounds interesting. Here in Fla I've never heard of it and the QBP coupler is rare enough to where I showed the LBS guys how to use it if they ever sell more.

The only way I've found to synchronize is thru cable length. The fr. is shorter so it closes just a bit quicker and stronger. I've read the Sheldon Brown essay and agree, though I also see your point about descents. Fortunately SE Fla is (except for the causeways to the beach) exceedingly flat and those bridges aren't enough to induce fade. Good thing b/c I can't climb worth a #@$% anyways. I suffered a severe brachial plexus injury. The BP is a nerve junction that controls the arm and some chest muscles. Surgery and alot of time in the gym resulted in upper arm recovery but no hand use. There are some new surgeries out there that might give some hand usage back. That'd be great b/c I still have a hard time getting really comfortable on a bike though it gets better each ride.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Decal Protection pt 2 posted by Michaelw on 4/21/2001 at 8:53:24 AM
One handed operation sounds like a use for hydraulic brakes. Synchronisation should be a bit smoother, and you should be able to set the front to bite first.
When were hydraulic brakes first used on bikes. I can't believe that they are a modern invention.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Decal Protection pt 2 posted by Walter on 4/21/2001 at 10:30:45 AM
Haven't seen them and don't honestly know how they'd go on a "lightweight" whether vintage or modern. I see more and more disc brakes on mtn bikes. They're cable operated I believe but disc systems are hydraulically activated all the time on cars/motorcycles so I'd imagine it's possible. You're right the resulting master cylinder would allow you to tune the brakes. For my needs cable operated calipers do what's needed.

I do have to point out though that my Basso has the 80s Campy SRs calipers and my new Univega has "economy" model Veloces. Despite that the new dual pivots are much stronger. I love and will keep my vintage SR but sometimes reality is impossible to ignore.

   brake pads posted by John E on 4/21/2001 at 6:55:39 PM
Braking effectiveness is a function of handle leverage, caliper leverage, and pad-to-rim friction. On the Bianchi, I use first-generation Campy calipers with Shimano aero handles and KoolStop pads. With all other pads I have tried, braking performance was unacceptable. The same comment applies to the original-equipment Weinmann centrepull system on my 1960 Capo. The most effective bicycle braking system I own is my mountain bike's RollerCam front / U-brake rear system, with motorcycle-style brake levers (and KoolStop pads).

   RE:brake pads posted by Walter on 4/21/2001 at 7:27:29 PM
While in college I shared an apartment for while with a guy who had what was probably 1 of the first Stumpjumpers. I remember being impressed with the cantilever brakes and those big motorcycle levers. I was not impressed with the weight to price ratio, both ends of the equation being way too high IMHO. Of course at the time I thought mtn bikes a soon to pass fad. Good thing I don't go to the track much. I do wonder why mtn bikes don't use those levers now. With the various suspensions I've seen the resemblance to motorcycles is becoming more and more all the time.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by: Mike Stone on 4/19/2001 at 5:50:10 AM
Oh, Man, how frustrating!

I am trying to remove the crank arm from a late 1960's vintage Philips 5-speed. I bashed on the cotter key like mad. Now, the cotter key is bent, mashed, and the cotter key still hasn't budged.

I used Liquid Wrench too.

Does anybody have any suggestions? What can I do now?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Keith on 4/19/2001 at 6:33:31 AM
Sheldon Brown has instructions on this at his Harris site, www.sheldonbrown.com Harris also sells new pins. There are cotter pin removal tools too -- but that's pricey. An old LBS may have one in its shop. I've had good luck with a center punch and a big hammer. Once a bad hit really mars it, it may be necessary to drill it. Christopher Robin who posts here is a genuine expert on this and I hope he has something to add.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Art on 4/19/2001 at 7:21:17 AM
Keith's last suggestion sounds right to me. Drill it! It can be time consuming but if you go carefully and slowly, you won't mar up the crank arm.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by sam on 4/19/2001 at 7:49:16 AM
get a large "C" clamp a a socket that fits over the cotrter.Place the socket over the cotter on the side it pushes out and use the "C" clamp to press it out---sam

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Pete on 4/19/2001 at 7:57:25 AM
I have removed cotter pins that I never thought would budge by supporting the crank arm over a piece of steel tube cut to length. With the crank horizontal, the head of the cotter pin sits in the end of the tube, the tube being long enough to rest on the ground - which must be concrete etc. The tube supports the crank arm and provides a really rigid platform to hit against.
This method has always worked for me.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Phil McBrayer on 4/19/2001 at 10:16:09 AM
Try a woodworking vice or a pipe vice with wooden sleaves over the jaws. You can sometimes set those crank arms in the vice at an angle so that the catter is one jaw and the crank arm in the other. Squeeze.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/19/2001 at 11:23:56 AM
I have done exactly what you have done a hundred times over. Park Tool sells a cotterpin removal press and you use it to also put them in securely too. Sheldon Brown can sell you this I believe. It's easier than trying to order it from your local shop. I'm not certain but this is like an $80.00 tool that makes it easier. I would get this tool even though it is a bit high, it is worth having. Sheldon Brown's site is a very helpful and important resource. He covers cotter pin trouble very well. Even still, with this tool the darned thing will bend over every once and awhile. The older 1950 ish bikes used better, stronger cotter pins but the newer 1970's bikes had cheaper cotter pins and these bend more often. You will have to carefully drill and be sure to use cutting oil and most importantly eye protection. Take your time you should be alright. You cannot drill thru the bottombracket spindle very easily but it may go awry and ruin the crank. You probably wont ruin the crank and most of the folks here could do this and not ruin the crank with the drill bit but I usually ruin the steel crank. Thats just me. You have to keep the drill bit straight! If you ruin the crank let us know and one of us should be able to get you a replacement. English cotter pins are 9.5 mm and Sheldon can sell you those also. People use a vice grip and a punch and work at it but if it is good and bent over them you will have to drill. http://www.Sheldonbrown.com old English bicycles old Raleigh bicycles scroll thru and find it.
Good Luck

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/19/2001 at 11:29:32 AM
The cool little domed cap nuts with the red Raleigh R are getting expensive on E- bay. Take them off and set them aside. It is unlikely that you will be able to put these on the replacement cotter pins you will get as the threading is diffrent but try anyway and be sure to save them. It's strange, a little handful of Red cap nuts and a bolt or two getting up like $30.00.
(I love these!)
I have had sellers remove these nuts in the past just to be naughty.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by sam on 4/19/2001 at 12:19:52 PM
Forgot.As Christopher pointed out late cotters are soft,so when in use they tend to bind as the crank and axel inter-act.try a little tap on the crank to the back pedal direction---sam

   cotters posted by John E on 4/19/2001 at 1:26:31 PM
At Bikecology [Supergo.com], we had a long-levered cotter press to use on the Peugeot UO-8s we sold, and it was a delightful tool for the purpose. Absent a press, I like the hollow-pipe-to-the-floor suggestion best, because simply banging on an unsupported crank can damage the BB bearings, cups, and/or spindle. Somehow, I do not miss cottered cranks at all!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by dave on 4/19/2001 at 2:22:26 PM
I too save the red cap nuts, likewise the same with the axle and seatpost bolt nuts. I know Motobecane made some with a blue M and I recently saw a Viscount with a V nut on the seatpost bolt ... who else made these?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/19/2001 at 3:55:25 PM
I have some with a red "C" so I think it is Carlton.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/19/2001 at 5:01:00 PM
I recently got a whole box full of cotter pins, but these are non Raleigh made and from Canada and they look diffrent. I haven't tried to use these yet but I will bet they won't work in Raleigh cranks.

   Cranky about cranks this evening posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/19/2001 at 5:10:09 PM
I have steel cranks, a few of the Raleigh ones. I was about to get a lot more of these but the fellow said "next time" I was promised that it would be safe and that I would visit again before the scrap man came by anyway.WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! He droped in and now I'm afraid he got four buckets full of cranks. Oh, I'm ill thinking about it. Now I have to go play inspector Clouseau and find this rogue scrap guy. God knows what he got!
I needed a bigger truck! AARRGH!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Jon on 4/19/2001 at 5:10:26 PM
The whole frame serves as a "shock absorber" for any tapping (or pounding) that you do on the cotter pin. I have gotten the
stubborn ones of by using a wooden block (oak is best) that just fits the base of the crank-arm so that; 1) ANY impulses are transmitted directly through the pin and not absorbed much by the frame and 2) the bearings, crank and
races are not as likely to be damaged. Safety goggles and a good quality ball-peen hammer are a necessity. A regular carpenter's hammer is likely to shatter or send chips flying out at tremendous (dangerous)
velocities. Good luck and be careful!

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/19/2001 at 5:14:29 PM
Don't wiggle the drill bit around and remember that you may break the drill bit if you do. Buy two bits at the shop.

   VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Mike Stone on 4/19/2001 at 8:33:02 PM
Well, fellows, I tried and tried and tried your fantastic ideas. I also tried Sheldon Brown's idea of heating the crank.

Nothing worked. The cotter is absolutely trashed. Even the pipe I put to support the crank is trashed. The counter-sink awl I used wore the threaded part of the cotter right down to the cotter itself. I tried to drill, but couldn't get the center right.

I have to guess that the assembly guy was having giggles that day with his friends at the Phillips bike company in England and really reefed on the cotter press. Maybe he was thinking, "Let's see somebody try an' get this out!"

Anyway, I got one out with relative ease, but not the other. I was able to clean and re-grease, but not able to change the bearings on the drive side.

I have to assume that the cotter will not come out. If it ever does, I want to be there to see it. I will bite that damned cotter with my own teeth, stomp on it, curse it (again), and, well who knows.

Anyway, I have no choice but to give up. I spent an entire afternoon on it and that is too much.

Thanks to everybody who replied so quickly and gave such great advise. Under normal circumstances, I think they would work.

It looks like the bike is there to stay.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Keith on 4/20/2001 at 10:13:13 AM
A veteran rider friend of mine told me his father got fed up with the cottered cranks coming loose, so he took all of the family bikes and welded the arms to the spindles. Leave it stuck and drip some Phil's oil or motor oil into the bb.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Bob on 4/20/2001 at 12:39:17 PM
Lots of excellent advice on cotter removal. If you want to drill it out and you are having trouble geting the bit to center correctly it is probably because the surface you are trying to drill into is a bit mangled at this point and the drill tends to "walk" to the side. There is a special machine bit in which the shaft is fairly "fat" until the very end where it goes down to a small size. This bit, in a drill press or mill, will not "walk" even on an uneven surface if the item being drilled is also clamped. Use it to start a pilot hole where you want it and once the hole is properly started a regular high speed bit will work much better. If I were doing it I might also cut the mangled end off with a hack saw so I would be starting with a relatively good surface.
I suppose the big question before you go any further is "How much is this bike worth to you?" A good machine shop could probably pop the thing out, or at least safely drill it out.

   RE:Not cranky after all posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/20/2001 at 1:59:46 PM
I was way lucky! The scrap guy didn't take them. One is from 1952 and is steel and is engraved Legnano.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: How can I get stuck cotter keys out? posted by Jon on 4/21/2001 at 3:02:50 AM
Try titanium/nitride coated drill bits. I've drilled holes in 6-point (v. hard steel) bolts that were frozen/fused into
an engine block. It takes a while, but just don't "stand" on the drill. It's pretty hard to get a big ol' Buick block into
a vice, so I had to drill by hand. If you spent an afternoon working on that pin extraction...I'd look for a side hole, where a pin might be
set into the crank and pin...like a shearpin on a prop. I'd like to give it a try, myself. Interesting problem.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   arrow harris? posted by: lawrence on 4/19/2001 at 3:37:11 AM
a friend of mine has picked up a lovely old frame (possibly 1930s?) which he has been told is a arrow harris?

Neither of us has heard of this make and we were wondering if anyone out there knew anything.

It is absolutley beautifully made, lugless and obviously double butted with braze ons for some type of gearing system and fancy hooks under the rear drop outs (which are horizontal) to ease wheel fitting. It has a completely smooth bottom bracket shell with no threading on either side. It has fairly steep frame angles. the forks have been lost but were fine with a long rake and a lamp boss braze on.

Any info greatly appreciated,

Happy cycling


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   arrow harris? posted by Warren on 4/19/2001 at 5:29:49 PM
I can't help you with the brand of frame but the threadless BB requires a steel insert...essentially the first generation of cartridge style bottom brackets. There is even a little hole in the shell to accomodate an oiler assuming you have one. I have five bikes with this same system.

FOR SALE:   Falcon Competitor 105 posted by: Jim on 4/18/2001 at 12:23:32 PM
54 cm Falcon Competitor 105. Matrix ISO CS-11 rims, 600 hubs, 14 spd RSX STI,105 calipers, crankset & bottom bracket. Less than 100 miles, never crashed, not my size (note the feeble attempt to jack the stem & seatpost !). Photos on "Reader's Web Pages" on the page titled "Retrocycles". Shown with a rise stem, OE stem - a Nitto is included.

   RE:FOR SALE:   Falcon Competitor 105 posted by Jim on 4/18/2001 at 12:30:36 PM
Forgot to mention: Reynolds 531 frame & fork.

   RE:FOR SALE:   Falcon Competitor 105 posted by Jim on 4/19/2001 at 10:51:17 AM
Last brainlock edit - the price; $300 obo or partial trade for Humber or Humber frame w/ bifurcated fork