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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:†††CENTURION posted by: Art on 4/9/2001 at 12:50:04 PM
I found a Centurion COMP AT roadbike this weekend. All Shimano 600, stem with interior binder bolt on the side (never seen that before), Suzue sealed hubs, 27 x 1 Araya metallic copper colored rims, Bernard Hinault seat, for $20. Anyone know this bike or any opinions. Columbus tubing, Japanese. Lugged frame. Age?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††CENTURION posted by Skip Echert on 4/9/2001 at 5:49:41 PM
Hello Art -
Great find - and the price was right! I wish I had found it. As to age - Shimano 600 was 79 to 87 (per Frank Berto's The Dancing Chain). The last two years were SIS (index shifting). How many gears does it have? The 27" wheels would put it in the earlier part of the date range. Do you mean it has Columbus tubing, or are you wondering if it does? Centurion was Japanese, I believe made by the same company that made Nishiki. The Nishiki name was put on a few columbus-tubed bikes that were apparently made in Italy. What name on the dropouts?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††CENTURION posted by Art on 4/9/2001 at 7:28:09 PM
Skip,I was wrong, it is Champion 2 tubing not Colombus. Sorry. The drops are Shimano ST.

(I had been at Phoenix' annual bike swap Sat. and my goal was to sell and get rid of stuff. I unloaded and donated to local bike center a number of bikes. I've got an interesting bike coming in (more on that when it arrives) and I just had to make room. I wasn't looking to buy anything, when I heard a guy say he had a Colnago frame for $50. I spun around and a yellow haired mountain biker snapped it up. He said he'll hang it up on his rec room wall! That hurt. I stopped at a yard sale on my way home Sunday and these cute little girls are having a yard sale. I buy the bike and toss it into the back of my truck, thinking that the idea of "making room" didn't last very long.)

   nice bike, Art! posted by John E on 4/10/2001 at 7:36:36 AM
I agree -- that Centurion is one of those surprisingly high-quality, still-undervalued finds. If the serial number is engraved into the bottom bracket shell and starts with a K, followed by a second letter and several digits, it may well be a Kawamura, which was indeed Nishiki's framebuilder for many years.

AGE / VALUE:†††schwinn world sport posted by: garyb on 4/9/2001 at 9:42:14 AM
I recently bought a Schwinn World Sport road bike for 20$.It is a mint, very nice bike.
the number on the bottom bracket is GJ829473.Does anyone know the age of this bike?
I think it might be late eighties?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††schwinn world sport posted by Skip Echert on 4/14/2001 at 10:22:51 PM
Hello Gary -
Can you tell us the number of gears, derailleur type, indexed (click) shifting?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††schwinn world sport posted by garyb on 4/19/2001 at 10:34:38 AM
Sorry i'm so late with a reply.
It's a twelve speed,it is indexed,
but I don't remember the derailleur type.
I'll have to look tonight

AGE / VALUE:†††WANTED: SUPER SPORT FRAME posted by: Kevin on 4/9/2001 at 8:14:51 AM
Hi. I'm looking for an early 70's Super Sport ( frame only ) A 24" is best, but may consider a 22". Thank you, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE: WANTED: SUPER SPORT FRAME posted by Jim on 4/13/2001 at 3:21:48 PM
I've recently come into possession of an old Super Sport 10-speed, serial number 3F02911. I don't know what vintage that translates as. It seems to be a pretty nice frame... but I think it's a little newer, as it has 700C wheels, not 26"ers. Is this a Panasonic-made frame, or Made in the USA??

FOR SALE:†††NOS Simplex front derailleur on Ebay posted by: VVVintage Vintage Bicycles at OldRoads.com on 4/9/2001 at 7:19:59 AM
With box and instructions. Ebay Item #1132883042


VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Mossberg? posted by: Terry Rutt on 4/9/2001 at 6:49:52 AM
Anyone know anything about Mossberg bikes? I bought one this weekend for the wife to ride around the neighborhood, and I really can't find any info on it. Is this the same Company that makes Mossberg guns? What years did they make bikes? Any info is appreciated...thanks!

   what components ? posted by John E on 4/9/2001 at 10:44:45 AM
I vaguely recall Mossberg during the early-mid 1970s bike boom, when everyone was making or at least marketing bicycles, including AMF Spaulding and Browning. I do not know whether Mossberg (yes, the arms maker) made their own frames (doubtful) or rebranded something from an American or Japanese manufacturer. The [bicycle] marque was not around very long. How is it equipped? What is the serial number? Are there any telltale decals on the frame?

AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh repro catalogue 83-87 posted by: Garth on 4/9/2001 at 5:58:56 AM
I would love to have a reproduction of a 1983 up to 1987 Raleigh of America catalogue. I own a Raleigh Prestige road bike, 1986, and am unable to find any at Retro Velo or other internet sites. I will pay of course, so if you have access, please e-mail.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh repro catalogue 83-87 posted by Pete Geurds on 4/9/2001 at 10:02:33 AM
A 1980 Raleigh catalog would be Raleigh of England.
Raleigh catalogs show up frequently on ebay.

Pete Geurds

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh repro catalogue 83-87 posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/9/2001 at 8:25:29 AM
I have one from 1980 e- mail me at ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh repro catalogue 83-87 posted by Pete Geurds on 4/9/2001 at 10:02:18 AM
A 1980 Raleigh catalog would be Raleigh of England.
Raleigh catalogs show up frequently on ebay.

Pete Geurds

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Raleigh repro catalogue 83-87 posted by Garth Libre on 4/11/2001 at 2:21:45 PM
Last night I purchased a Raleigh brochure from 1983, on Ebay. Thanks to all, but my Raleigh Prestige frameset was only sold from 1983 on. Any other information on the 1983 - 1986 Raleigh Prestige with all Reynolds 531-C frame, stays and fork, would be appreciated. Thanks Garth

AGE / VALUE:†††Campy derailleur posted by: Tom on 4/8/2001 at 10:07:56 PM
I just got a ladies bike with campagnolo front and rear derailleurs,clamp on friction shifters and bottom cable guide all in good shape. The front derailleur looks like a 50,s/60,s gran sport I saw today on ebay. It looks like a box with a pin that moves in and out to shift. The rear derailleur as a Valentino,Extra, with 13-36 stamped on the back side. The shifters look early 60's. Does anyone know what year Campy I have here? The bike is an Atala Milano Officine Meccaniche. It has been put together with Rigida (France) steel rims, Eturmey Archer (England)steel hubs, Suntour gears, Sella Italia Anatomic seat. The bike is not nice and it is heavy. Are the campy parts worth anything?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††Campy derailleur posted by Chuck on 4/9/2001 at 12:59:46 AM
Check the Campagnolo Timeline at:

   Campy derailleur posted by John E on 4/9/2001 at 8:19:54 AM
According to Berto, the Gran Sport rear came out in 1951, and remained popular until the early 1960s, with the introduction of the Record. The matching pushrod front probably came out in the mid-50s. Both were original equipment on my 1960 Capo. The Valentino, an early 1960s low-end Campy offering, was perhaps after-market on this particular bicycle. The 13-36 is the (huge) rear cog tooth capacity; in contrast, Gran Sport rears are rated 13-26.

Check out Bicycleforum.com. An Italian gentleman named Marcello knows quite a bit about Atalas. Sheldonbrown.com also has some Atala info.

From what I have seen on eBay, there is definitely a market for your Campy derailleurs and downtube shifters. I do not believe the frame is collectible, but I have been surprised before!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Good deal for you large frame riders posted by: Brian L. on 4/8/2001 at 5:40:20 AM

AGE / VALUE:†††1960 Schwinn Continental Tourist posted by: John E on 4/7/2001 at 2:32:36 PM
Last month, a lady named Kristie posted an inquiry about her 1960 Schwinn Continentals. I just spent a delightful half-hour with her and her husband, Kelly, looking over, photographing, and discussing the bicycles, which belonged to his grandfather. I will post some pictures in bicycleforum.com's picture gallery on Monday. Everything appears original except the rear derailleurs, shift levers, tyres, and saddles. Mechanical details, for all of you Schwinn-o-philes:
build date: Nov. 1960 (both);
frame sizes: 21" and 23";
overall condition: not pristine, but decent;
front derailleur: Simplex suicide; both are slightly bent; the low gear adjustment screw has broken off one of them;
rear derailleur: one old Shimano steel, one old SunTour steel (obviously NOT original);
shift lever: steel Huret(!) (Had Schwinn perchance changed over to a Huret rear derailleur by November 1960, in which case this shifter could be original? It seems weird that someone would replace the Simplex lever with a Huret while switching over to a SunTour/Shimano derailleur. It would be much easier and cheaper for K&K to procure period-correct Huret Allvits, rather than those crummy-and-rare Simplex Tour de Frances.);
chainrings: standard Huret 3-bolt/6-bolt steels, 52-49;
saddles: one "Made in Holland," one Messinger, both wide mattress-style (not original, but period-correct??);
spokes: zinc-plated; fronts are very rusty;
freewheel: Atom 5-speed, 14-24? (Kristie-- please count the teeth on the largest and smallest cogs);
pedals: Schwinn rubber with steel band -- identical to Corvette picture in The Dancing Chain;
hubs: Normandy with round holes instead of the more familiar Schwinn-style triangular cutouts;
rims: serrated steel 27" (NOT 26"!!);
brakes: Weinmann sidepulls with original red pads;
handlebars: standard upright, swept-back, as on a Schwinn 3-speed of that era, with black Schwinn grips;
paint: coppertone (perhaps my favourite Schwinn colour), with those great 1960-specific decals, Knights' helmets and all;

My recommendations, to walk that fine line between utility and collectibility:
1) overhaul all bearings, clean up everything;
2) save all original parts following any component upgrades or swaps;
3) replace (and save) the chains and brake pads;
4) be on the lookout for period-correct Simplex and/or Huret rear derailleurs;
5) install wide-range "ultra-6" freewheels;
6) straighten each suicide shifter to make the cage parallel to the chainrings and tracking the outer ring's tooth profile;
7) install knobby 27 x 1-3/8 tyres;
8) solicit additional advice from oldroads.com regulars, some of whom know Schwinns far better than I (I own only one!).

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††1960 Schwinn Continental Tourist posted by Kelly on 4/7/2001 at 9:27:58 PM
Thanks again John. We started cleaning up the 21" and once we got through the top layers of dust and grime, it started to clean up nicely. The only problem I am having is locating the master link on the chain. We also ordered the cleaning kit off of this site to tackle the surface rust on the chrome. We will keep you posted on the progress.


   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††1960 Schwinn Continental Tourist posted by Oscar on 4/7/2001 at 11:13:56 PM
Kelly, it sounds like Dr. John has done you a solid. When you're grime fighting, you might consider a product called Xenit. It's one of those citrus-based cleaner-degreasers. I found some at the auto parts store yesterday, and I'm impressed by how easily it gets through grime. Best of all, it smells better than WD-40. There are other citrus cleaners, and I have also heard good things about them.

A word of caution about citrus cleaners, though. I have a small cut on my thumb, and that stuff burns like orange juice.

   1960 Schwinn Continental Tourist posted by Eric Amlie on 4/10/2001 at 6:44:07 AM
John E. Thanks for taking the time and effort to shoot these pics and post them for us to see. I for one greatly appreciated seeing them. You should not be surprised that the wheels were 27". It was the Varsities that had the 26" wheels from '60 through '62. The 10 speed Continentals always had the 27"s. Thanks again.

   correction: Simplex, not Huret posted by John E on 4/8/2001 at 8:40:16 AM
Correction: The rear shift lever IS a Simplex. It fooled me because its simple outline closely resembles a Huret Allvit, rather than the earlier, more ornate levers, with the narrow shaft and rounded end. The gear cluster is 15-17-19-22-25, which is great with the 52-49 chainrings, although the 53" bottom gear is a bit stiff for hill dwellers. The 53-93 overall range is a few percent above that a typical English 3-speed.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††1960 Schwinn Continental Tourist posted by Wings on 4/8/2001 at 8:13:54 PM
I would never use WD40 on a bike. It also kills your hands and is bad to breath. Some citrus cleaners are too harsh.
I clean bikes all the time and I use SIMPLE GREEN. It really works and has never harmed any finish.
First I use a brush to brush the dirt of gently.
Next I clean the bike with SIMPLE GREEN.
Next I use a mild "cleaner" (auto) on any light scratches.
Next I touch up bad areas with the small touch up spray cans in auto stores (pep boys), but if it an odd color this is hard to do. You can punch little holes in cardboard, and hold the cardboard an inch from the blemish and spray through the hole. It leaves a fethered finish that blends.
Last, I wax the frame. Sudden Finish is what I like to use.
Good luck.

MISC:†††Early Paramount posted by: Greg Groth on 4/6/2001 at 7:36:30 PM
Anyone have any idea what kind of rims Paramount used on their early track bikes? Bike currently has 27" steel clinchers which I believe have been replaced.

   RE:MISC:†††Early Paramount posted by Oscar on 4/7/2001 at 11:15:44 PM
Wood? Many racers used steel rims for training, saving the woodies for the track.

   RE:MISC:†††Early Paramount posted by Keith on 4/10/2001 at 8:09:15 AM
They would have been wood. Check with Waterford Precision Cycleart, or the Classic Rendevous list for more information.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††What is this posted by: Don on 4/6/2001 at 2:53:50 PM
I don't know how to create a link, but I was wondering if anyone has seen the bike on Ebay # 1129260521. Anyone know anything about that brand (Wapner)?

   What is this posted by John E on 4/6/2001 at 6:48:44 PM
If I recall correctly, someone posted an inquiry about this marque several months ago, and someone else responded that Wander was a German brand which sold some rebadged Italian bicycles, as well. That frame is beautiful! The Simplex suicide / Campy GS derailleur combination is curious, since Campy did have a matching cable-operated pushrod front in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Perhaps it came with a Simplex clockspring rear derailleur, and the hubs and rear derailleur were aftermarket upgrades ...

MISC:†††Late 60s Schwinn Supersport headset size posted by: brent on 4/6/2001 at 2:46:57 PM
I just tapped out the headset on my '69 Super Sport and noticed that it's huge. None of the other cups that I have fit. I measured it and it looks like the inner diameter is close to 1 1/4. I held up a threadless 1 1/8 stem and I'm wondering if I can put a 1 1/8th headset and fork on it. The bike is set up as a fixed gear and I was considering trying to scrounge up an old cyclocross suspension fork for it.

   RE:MISC:†††Late 60s Schwinn Supersport headset size posted by Warren on 4/7/2001 at 5:21:39 PM
If it is a 1 1/4" headset you may find them at a decent mtn bike store. That size was more common in the late 80s. I have heard but not seen, that there are reducing sleeves that would size down your head tube.

Failing that, here's an idea...see if you can find a tall headtube off of a tall framed womans roadster that would fit inside your headtube. As a matter of fact I was just about to throw such a frame out in the garbage...it's severely twisted. I just measured the outside diameter and it is exactly 1 1/4". Just a thought!

   RE:MISC:†††Late 60s Schwinn Supersport headset size posted by Bill Putnam on 4/10/2001 at 1:26:04 PM
The headset is not a standard size. To get my Super Sport to
use a standard headset to go with a standard fork, my local
bike shop brazed in a smaller diameter tube inside the head
tube to shim it to standard. Note this is the only method
I would recommend-plain shims would likely not take the
stress of riding. I'm trying to imagine, though, what
use a suspension fork would be on a fixed gear...

AGE / VALUE:†††Hetchins Curly/Magnum Opus on Ebay posted by: desmo on 4/6/2001 at 12:19:57 PM
Hetchins Curly with a Magnum Opus lugset frame, also some interesting braze ons.


   Hetchins Curly/Magnum Opus on Ebay posted by John E on 4/6/2001 at 6:52:29 PM
Thanks for sharing! eBay can be a fascinating bike museum at times.

MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by: Wings on 4/6/2001 at 12:06:06 AM
It has been a strange year for finding bikes. I go out at least once each week and check thrift stores. It has been slow since September. After the holidays there is usually tons of bikes for great prices, however this year there were very few bikes for high prices.
I notice that the quantity of goods in the thrift stores has also decreased. Now I hear that Goodwill is cutting back 25% -- I think nationaly. Perhaps this was and is a trend as we also see in the stock market and other places.
Today was the first day I found a couple of bikes in a month. One Raleigh 502 (What is that?) and an old Trek Mountain bike.
Have you also seen the treasures getting harder to find?
I am in California.

   RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by Joel on 4/6/2001 at 7:20:02 AM
I haven't found a decent bike in a thrift store (Alabama) in over a year. I've NEVER found one in a Goodwill store (or anything else of value for that matter) because their employees steal anything good that comes in. (this is evident if you compare the contents of any goodwill store to that of any other thrift store).

If they are closing some of their stores, I'd say good ridance. Maybe their donations wil go to a worthwhile charity.

   RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by Keith on 4/6/2001 at 10:58:51 AM
A few years ago at this time, there were several pages of garage sales listed in the local paper. Now its about a 1/4 page! I think two things play a role in this: Ebay, and more stores that buy and resell used items, at least locally.

   RE:MISC: Treasure Hunters posted by Bob on 4/6/2001 at 11:06:39 AM
There is a thrift store near my house that usually has bikes and I have picked up some interesting stuff there over the past two years. I think the bikes are picked over before they ever reach the sales floor so real "finds" are usually something odd or uncommon.

Pawn shops can also be a real source but things are a bit more expensive there. A fellow I know picked up a Japanese bike with a full Campy Super Record "gruppo" for $150.

Small old bike shops can also be a good source. Last year I picked up 4 Mavic 330 rims still in the plastic for $10 each.

I know several people who do the yard sale thing on the weekend and I have given them a list of what to look for and if they see anything they give me a call.

   RE:RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by Mark Poore on 4/6/2001 at 11:35:50 AM
A fellow came into our shop last year and saw my Mercian hanging and proceeded to tell me of his find. About two years ago he was in a Mall bike shop that had mostly BMX stuff. He started talking road bikes with the owner, which the owner didnít ride, and said he had a road frame in the back that was with in the stock when he bought the store. He brought it out and it was a new Mercian Vincitore. He made an offer of $200 for it and the owner turned it down. He told the owner that he was from out of town and had a flight the next day. Anyway, he stopped by the shop the next day and the owner asked if he was serious about the bike. He walked out with the frame for $250. To buy the frame today is about $1,200.

Keep looking!

   RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by Tom on 4/6/2001 at 8:05:47 PM
About 4 years ago I was at a garage sale and these 2 guys were talking to the owner of the place about this bike he had in the sale. It was a Mercian, King of Mercia, in pieces but complete. He said it was from the 60's and he got it from the 1st owner in 1970. The two guys were holding the bike so I couldn't look at it. The owner said he wanted 15 bucks for it(Canadian money, about 10 bucks US at the time). I pulled the money out of my wallet and waited to see if they would put the bike down and walk away. They walked away for a minute to talk among themselves, probably to try to get it cheaper. I threw the guy the money and grabed the bike and walked past the two suckers with their jaws wide open. The bike turns out to be a 68. Not the nicest bike but worth the money.
This week a guy I work with asked me to fix the lights on his truck, and offered me a bike in payment for the work. He said it was in his garage sale for two years now for $20. It never sold. The bike is an 84 or 85 Bianchi with Suntour components.He says it weighs about 24 lbs, and that it was quite expensive back when he bought it new. I said I would take it for payment. I have not seen it yet, I get it tomorrow. I don't even know what model it is. I will get my surprize in the morning when he comes to get his truck.
Watch those garage sales, the bikes are still out there.

   Japanese Bianchi, perhaps? posted by John E on 4/7/2001 at 9:11:42 AM
It may be a Japanese frame, which is not bad, but which lacks the prestige and collectibility of an Italian-made Bianchi. If the bottom bracket cups are English-threaded (1.37" instead of 36mm diameter), it was made in Japan.

   RE:RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/7/2001 at 10:16:01 AM
I asked about the pile of boxes and tobacco tins full of small parts. He told me it was all junk and it was going for scrap. Well, I was very persistant and finally I got him to let me take it all. I was lucky this time, I had failed over and over and knew it was about to be all lost. I still kept at it, finally he heard me,or found my devotion to old bikes a good thing. The ancient Juy Simplex deraileurs and skewers peeking out at me proved he was just wrong, dead wrong about it being worthless junk. To a devoted bike collector,fan, lover, devote whatever I am, it drove me crazy to think all this might be lost. Well, I have sorted thru it all after geting it home and it is truly amazing at what was tossed into these tins and boxes and treated like garbage.He brought it home 15 years ago and then was going to scrap it all. He has lost interest suddenly and it is unsettling to see a giant collector pal do this. Im glad to get it from him but for the guy to do a 180 suddenly is unexpected. it was like finding many diamond rings in the manure pile. I know what is what, what goes to what, who made this and that and what it is to and now, thanks to the internet I can get an idea what is worth more than other parts. I am working on a list of exactly what I have because some of it I will offer for sale. It is a race against time as usual. I went about fitting parts on bikes and completed many unfinished projects. I filled the truck and have to go back again.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by Wings on 4/7/2001 at 10:48:20 PM
Go Christopher!!!
Hip Hip Hooray!!!

   RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by jon on 4/7/2001 at 11:19:16 PM
Salvation Army Stores have lots of bikes leaning against eachother in the back outside storage area. I have not seen a good
"beater" or even a "parter" for that matter. Goodwill stores
are a different story. There are 3 along my bike route and I stop in occasionally and I have seen a few nice bikes, but the prices are the same whether it's a "disposable" unit or quality machine. Also, only one of the stores has any bikes at anytime.
I guess it's a good idea to check out different stores. Garage sales used to be fertile hunting grounds, but folks are getting wise, because the prices seem boosted up to not "sell", but hope some guy is looking for a particular bike and that he'll fork (no pun intended) out
a sought after gem.
I may try University bill boards, but the kids aren't riding collectible vintage bikes or
"beaters" much any more. I see lots of cars with bike racks, which says something. I still gooseneck the garage sales we pass on the road, looking for that rare find. With me, when I try to find something actively looking...forget that; it's better to just keep a casual attitude
and good things happen! Good luck.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/9/2001 at 5:41:53 PM
At least some University campus still have old bikes around. Not so with the one I checked out. It was like somebody took every one and left Huffy's in their place. A whole town full of nothing but Huffy's. I tell you it was painful to see.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by Oscar on 4/7/2001 at 11:20:55 PM
I jumped for joy (figuratively) when I saw Simplex JUY derraileurs on the bike I bought for $35.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:†††Treasure Hunters posted by Wings on 4/9/2001 at 1:08:45 AM
You are saying the same thing I am seeing in Goodwill and Salvation Army stores. My best Thrift stores are "association of Retarded Citizens" and a Mission Thrift Store. I have picked up lots of bikes -- good ones -- on University campuses. I was at USC for a meeting one day and during lunch I could hardly eat because I was walking by all the old cruisers -- lots of great bikes. One university campus had lots of old Raleighs (I was not looking for them then) and ten speeds in addition to cruisers, and a few BMX and sting rays. It is an awesome experience to see all the bikes. But it pains me to see old classics knocked down on the ground, wheels tacoed in racks, and the general demolishing of bikes that occurs on university campuses.

MISC:†††First Drench posted by: Oscar on 4/5/2001 at 8:53:00 PM
After only a few rides to work this year, I got head to toe drenched on the last leg home. Its all part of the adventure, and I look forward to many more.

Even though my fendered commutermobile was down with a flat, so I took the skinny tired Italian. Talk about rat-tail plumes through the gutters.

   RE:MISC:†††First Drench posted by jon on 4/8/2001 at 11:33:24 AM
How about the MTB skunk-stripe that adorns a windbreaker after a hurried commute? Even after a wash, you can still see the stripe outlined. I wonder how much greater drag there is with
pushing up water instead of air? I notice a fatigue factor
in my amphibious commutes.