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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   Dura-ace equipped PUCH posted by: "Elvis" on 4/11/2002 at 5:58:25 AM
Hi all... I just got a new road bike [Trek 1000] and promised myself I wouldn't pick up any more junk bikes and restore them, but when at a bike shop a fellow came in with a grey PUCH roadbike. The wheels [which has sew-ups on them!] where totally shattered and the guy said he had done the bike in by accidentally pulling into his garage with it in a roof rack (!) My eyes saw the two-tone Dura-ace cranks and chainrings,black side-pulls, and black downtube shifters, Shimano CRANE rear dureilluer and noticed too the bike frame was my size! when he said he didn't want to pay to have the wheels rebuilt I offered to buy the bike for $50. That afternoon I cleaned it up and put a set of wheels on it. It rides great but I have no idea how old it is. It has streamlined Areo brake levers but all other parts seem original. The guy said he bought it in the 1980's from the first owner who used to ride in races and group rides... Any one have an idea how old it is? And is it even possible to get sew-ups any more, or to use them on regular rims?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dura-ace equipped PUCH posted by Kevin K on 4/11/2002 at 11:47:48 AM
Hi. Try ebay for sew up wheelsets and tires. Better to hit swap meets though. Here in the Toledo area the bike shows are geared mostly twards Stingray's and balloon tire bikes. Most lightweight stuff sits if it's even at market price but will sell if low $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ are asked. Saw a great set of Mavic sew up rims, NOS last year for $25. I picked up an NOS pair of sew up tires for $10. If you are close the Ann Arbor bike show has some lightweight items pretty reasonable, but overall it's not like the swap meets in other parts of the country. Good Luck Elvis

   RE: thanx for the advice, guys! posted by "Elvis" on 4/11/2002 at 3:10:53 PM
Thanks! I I like thew bike and it is good that there are some other people who know about them. I tried the internet searching for "puch" sites and got nothin' but mopeds (!) I almost gave up on anybody knowing anything about the bike! Thanks a bunch!
About the sew-ups -- you have to get NOS, huh? I was afraid of that. Most good stuff goes out of style...

   RE:RE: thanx for the advice, guys! posted by Walter on 4/11/2002 at 4:24:17 PM
Sew-up rims can still be had new in shops/catalogs/internet sources. Clinchers may finally push the sew-up to extinction but it hasn't happened yet. Your difficulty might be the hubs if they didn't survive the accident. Modern rear hubs are for dropouts with 130mm spread and I'm pretty sure your Puch will have 126mm. Plenty of NOS hubs out there as well as quality used. If your hubs are
OK you'll have no problem finding and lacing on new tubulars if that's the way you want to go. This applies to rear hubs. The spacing for the front hasn't changed.

   rear axle width posted by John E on 4/11/2002 at 8:45:08 PM
If the Puch is already 126mm wide, just spread it to 130mm and use a modern wheelset. Those of us coming up from 120mm have a little tougher problem.

   RE:rear axle width posted by "Elvis" on 4/12/2002 at 5:10:03 AM
Oh, the axle spacing is not a problem... The wheels I put on are from an early 1980's bike... they only have six gears in the back so they fit fine. I threw out the old wheels because the rims were broken up into pieces like stale cookies... I'm curious about the sew-ups because the wheels and rims on the bike now are regular "clincher" rims and I've never ridden sew-ups [though I've heard great stuff about them, and this bike originally used them] -- but the seat bag under the seat contained an old sew-up tire and it looks usable. My main curiosity was, can you get whole sew-up wheels, if the tires are available? Or is it possible to use them on regular rims?
Also, I just noticed a barely visible decal on this PUCH bike saying "Royal" -- could that be a model name?

   RE:RE:rear axle width posted by Walter on 4/12/2002 at 4:02:25 PM
You can buy new wheels with sew-up rims but they'll be the modern 9-10 speed cassette hubs not the 6 speed freewheel you're using. If your current hubs are good rebuilding your wheels with sew-up rims is cetainly doble by any decent wheel builder.

You do need sew-up or more properly, tubular rims to run sew-up tires they will not, cannot work on clincher rims.

Sew-ups have some advantages. They're usually lighter and good quality ones have a "feel" that is hard to duplicate or describe.

OTOH they're expensive, flats mean using needle and thread for repairs and the glue is messy. I use a set on my retro Basso because the wheels are better suited for me than my clinchers are but I ride a known route with good clean roads. Modern clinchers (also expensive) give a superb ride esp. when compared to what ws available when your bike was new.

WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by: Dick on 4/11/2002 at 3:45:32 AM
Does anyone no of a source for NOS ribbed (preferably white) cable housing that came on early 70's Raleighs? I've got 2 Super Courses, a Grand Prix and my Dawes Galaxy project that all need replacements. Also, what is a good replacement/upgrade for all of these Weinmann centerpulls that won't look too "incorrect"?

   RE:WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by Keith on 4/11/2002 at 6:24:37 PM
I know guru Michael Kone uses the phrase "evil Weinmann center pulls" but I've never understood why. I've never had a single problem with them and they stop a bike just fine. In the 70s people snubbed them because Campy sidepulls and later their many clones were deemed better (okay, I hopped on that bandwagon too) -- but the only advantages of sidepulls were that they were more simple and lighter -- not more powerful (actually less). And of course the Campy NR brakes really are beautiful (got one on my desk as a paper weight right now) -- a good notch above anything else in terms of finish and graceful lines (even Modolo IMHO). The bikes you have are mid-range models, and I don't think Campy NR would be worth it. There are some Campy Gran Sport brakes out there -- even some NOS -- and I think some later year Raleigh Comps were spec'd with them, but they don't grow on trees. You can find tons of Weinmann 500 sidepulls (hey, Tom Ritchey used them cause they were the lightest), and their Japanese cousins by Dia Compe. Universal 68s are fun ultra retro Italian, but not quite correct -- and Univesral 61 sidepulls would not belong on a Brit bike. Shoot -- Weinmann CPs are the real thing and correct -- if you want to upgrade, get some salmon pink coolstop pads to fit them (I know the old Weinmann pads harden to stone and aren't much use -- that could be part of why you're unhappy with them.)

   RE:WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by Cal on 4/12/2002 at 1:36:23 PM
NOS ribbed English cables are sold right here on this site!

   RE:WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by Bill Putnam on 4/12/2002 at 2:42:05 PM
Weinmann center pull brakes were very common on bikes in the
70's and work fine. As with most older good quality brakes, the most substantial improvement in performance is by upgrading the cables. Sheldon Brown has a nice article on this http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cables.html If you really want to keep the bike looking period correct keep the Weinmann brakes and try to find some teflon liners to put inside your NOS ribbed cables along with some slick inner cables. Add some new brake pads. Salmon colored Cool Stop Continentals are a great value although they don't look period correct-you could shorten some pre 1999 Cool Stop campy refills and put these in your original shoes http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html

Read Sheldon's article on cables, clean, lube, and adjust, and your brakes will work better than they ever had before.

There's a fairly in-depth discussion of brakes at http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.15.html if you're interested in the relative merits of different brake designs.

   RE:WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by Hallyx on 4/12/2002 at 6:40:14 PM
I appreciate "period correctness" as much as the next guy but, in my opinion, safety supercedes it every time. Not that ribbed cables are unsafe, but modern cables are a sufficient improvement to persuade me to overlook that "period" appearance.

I remember, in the late 60's/early 70's, when everybody was swapping out their stretchy European cables for the stiffer Japanese versions (motorcycles too). If I got an NOS Super Course, in the original container, the first and only modification I'd make would be to replace the brake cables.

I'm restoring a Dawes Galaxy too, Dick, and would enjoy hearing from you about your project (I'm working on decals, if you're interested).


   RE:WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by Dick on 4/13/2002 at 1:42:56 AM
Wow! To hear you guy's tell it, I'm lucky to ba alive after rideing those thousands of miles all through the 70's and 80's with those inferior brake cables. That said, I'll reserve any further comment until I've read the references you've directed me to. Thanks for the lead to the source ofr the NOS cable housings, and my appologies to our host for not finding it myself.

   RE:RE:WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by Bill Putnam on 4/15/2002 at 2:17:55 PM
Personally I do not consider older high quality brake cables unsafe. The inner cables supplied as original on older Raleigh Sports or Schwinns (ca. '50's) were larger in diameter than a lot of the aftermarket replacements, and worked fine. The new lined cable housings and "slick" inner wires such as the QBP stainless slick inner cables (see http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakes.html#cables ) just reduce cable friction and give a nicer feel to brakes. Possibly a little better modulation of braking, but in practice I never found this to be a problem with older quality brake cables. Basically, the new ones just feel nicer and work better. For someone who feels that their old brakes don't work as well as modern brake designs, modern cables properly installed, decent brake shoes, and proper cleaning/greasing of brake calipers will result in older brakes working quite well, IMHO. Granted the mechanical advantage on the new dual pivot brakes is higher, giving more braking for a given pressure on the brake lever, but this is at the expense of reduced brake travel which can become a problem if your rims aren't perfectly true and your brake pads not adjusted very close to the rim. If you have small or weak hands then I could see that higher mechanical advantage might be a better trade off, but for most people the loss of travel at the brake pads is not a good trade off. If anything, this is comprimising safety as if a modern system gets a little out of adjustment you can bottom the brake lever without acheiving maximum braking, wheras the older systems will still have enough lever travel to acheive maximum braking (which is dictated by the wheelbase and center of mass of the bicycle and bicyclist.

WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by: Dick on 4/11/2002 at 3:45:32 AM
Does anyone no of a source for NOS ribbed (preferably white) cable housing that came on early 70's Raleighs? I've got 2 Super Courses, a Grand Prix and my Dawes Galaxy project that all need replacements. Also, what is a good replacement/upgrade for all of these Weinmann centerpulls that won't look too "incorrect"?

   RE:WANTED:   NOS ribbed cable housing. posted by Cal on 4/12/2002 at 1:37:30 PM
Click on "Bicycles and Parts For Sale" at the top of this page. They carry them here on old roads.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Free Raleigh Super Course frameset. posted by: Dick on 4/11/2002 at 3:40:29 AM
Anyone see the free Raleigh Super Course frameset at Classicrendezvous.com? contact: Ford Kanzler, El Granada, CA 650-726-4243, ford@prsavvy.com You pay shipping.

   size? posted by John E on 4/11/2002 at 2:14:58 PM
If the size is close to 55cm C-T, I'm interested.

Since I have bikes with French, Austrian, Italian, and American frames, I may be able to convince my wife that I really do need a British frame, as well!

MISC:   A Real Pain In The .... posted by: Art on 4/11/2002 at 1:32:32 AM
Someone once said that there are two kinds of men. Those who know they have a prostate gland, and those who don't. I envy those who don't, having been well acquainted with mine for some thirty years or so. As a cyclist I need some advice and who better to ask than a bunch of cyclists, a few who may suffer the same malady and have some suggestions. Through all my travails with prostatitis and an enlarged prostate I've always ridden through it...never spending much time off the bike. Recently I've been bugged to the extent that I've had to curtail my commuting. I'm seeing a doctor, etc. etc. but often those guys don't really know everything about everything. One of the things that I read mentioned that riding a bike is jarring and a bike shouldn't be ridden if the rider's prostate is acting up. I've sort of followed the advice this time, but I'm having a hard time getting back to normalcy and I'm wondering if the opposite isn't true. That, in moderation, riding a bike with a good seat is good for the prostate. Any one have any suggestions? If your prostate is bugging you, do you ride or sit in out? Also, I've got a couple of anatomical saddles that are pretty good, not as stylish, but more comfortable than my Brooks saddles. Any suggestions? Sorry if this post is inappropriate, but I'm hoping someone can relate. Art, standing around a lot, in Phoenix.

   RE:MISC:   A Real Pain In The .... posted by Dick on 4/11/2002 at 4:18:35 AM
Art, it sounds like your discomfort exceeds what I've expierenced at times. I find that a well broken-in Brooks is better than any of the "anotomical" contraptions I've tried over the years. It really is a matter of personal preference. You are correct in not trusting your physician to fully understand a cyclist's special needs. I have wonderful doctors and a super chiropractor, who all caution that traditional "dropped" handlebars found on ten speed road bikes is not a good riding position for my weak back. They all say I should be riding in an upright position. Hawgwash! I'd much rather ride suspending my spine between my shoulders and hips than to compress my vertibrae as I bounce along sitting upright. Back to your problem. Try Randy Ice at http://www.bikescor.com/. He's a physical therapist who specializes in using bicycling to help heart disease patients. He also does professional bike fitting for those with special needs. He's in Southern California, but I'm sure he can recommend someone in your area. Good Luck and happy riding.

   RE:RE:MISC:   A Real Pain In The .... posted by Dick on 4/11/2002 at 4:21:22 AM
That should read "recovering" heart disease patients.

    A Real Pain In The .... posted by John E on 4/11/2002 at 2:24:44 PM
When I was a lad, I could use any bicycle saddle without discomfort (and I could run in virtually any shoes, etc.).
However, at age 46, when I first got the Bianchi, which had a conventional narrow padded vinyl saddle taken from a Marin mountain bike, I started having prostate discomfort on long rides. I now have very little discomfort thanks to a daily dose of saw palmetto and careful saddle selection. My three best saddles, in order of prostate friendliness, are a never-tightened 1973 Brooks Pro with 40K mi/65K km of my own use, an even older Brooks Competition with a bit less cumulative use, and a 1996 Serfas ARC anatomical.

   RE:MISC:   A Real Pain In The .... posted by Keith on 4/11/2002 at 6:39:31 PM
Art -- I'm right there with you. But my doctor has NEVER suggested that I reduce riding. There are some semi-effective medications -- Floxin and certain blood pressure medication. Ibuprofin helps the pain, for me. Teke hot sits baths of 20 minutes or more. Drinking lots of water also. I've also used saw palmeto -- can't say whether it helps or not but it can't hurt. Same with extra zinc. And -- I'm going to say it because it's true -- regular sex. SADDLES: padding and gel are bad, not good, because it actually squeezes up against your prostate that's my personal experience and, more importantly, the opinion of the nearly infallable Grant Petersen. Brooks B-17 -- YES!! Keep the saddle level, or with the nose pointing down about 1-2 degrees. But, pointing the nose down causes you to put more weight on your hands, so for long rides I find level is best. Aside from Brooks, I have found some of the modern cutout saddles comfortable, despite Grant Petersen's objection based on some little known Italian study. It may require trying a few. I favor the Selle Italia Flite Trans Am -- it has it all, and I'd even say it surpasses the Brooks for comfort. I also agree that an upright position is, at some point, less comfortable. I find drop bars that are level with or 3-5cm below the saddle are best, at least for me. Don't stop riding! Exercise (not to mention fun) is too important!

   RE:RE:MISC:   A Real Pain In The .... posted by Keith on 4/11/2002 at 7:38:08 PM
P.S. I know "spin is in" among a lot of riders, but I also find it helps to push a bigger gear than most. To me, spinning at 90+ rpms is just a way to bounce on my prostate. In contrast, pushing a bigger gear lifts you off the saddle somewhat as you ride. Also, as I recall, you ride rollers, and I think the kind of riding form rollers help to attain reduces the bouncy pedal stroke at any caddence.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   A Real Pain In The .... posted by Art on 4/12/2002 at 4:46:49 AM
Thanks, gentlemen. I do most of the things you suggest Keith, except for the ibuprofen, which I'll try. I tend to push bigger gears anyway, but what you said about spinning makes sense. As this epsiode begins to subside, I paln on playing with what is the best seat for me. I've come to the conclusion that not riding as a remedy is probably well intended if it applies to the upright type of riding you mention. That is jarring to me, even on a good day. Also, I've read a lot recently about how caffeine can be a real irritant and how quercitin, an herb, can help. Thanks a lot guys. I felt much better today.

AGE / VALUE:   Mystery bike posted by: Pilar on 4/10/2002 at 2:16:09 AM
Black ,women's, one speed was found on the streets of NYC. It has New Departure model D hubs and the rear fork is bolted on. There is a number stamped on the frame under the seat, G85515, but the stamp looks more recent than the bike itself. The badge is red, silver and blue? and is half gone. The leather seat has large springs and slides on an @ 1" pipe welded perpendicular to the seat stem.. Any ideas anyone? plimosner@earthlink .net

MISC:   ride posted by: RICKEY on 4/9/2002 at 8:56:35 PM

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Happy Days... posted by: Rob on 4/9/2002 at 7:04:43 PM
This past weekend proved very interesting...one of the nearby suburban communities was having a spring clean-up week...non-garbage day household discards placed on the curb for pick-up by the muni or anyone else...It proved quite rewarding...

Five interesting bikes in various condition in about five hours over two days...

1) lates 80's early 90's blue/yellow Gardin, a very good Canadian made bike in good shape with some nice components...Shimano 'Light Action" der., Ambrosio rim/Azzuro hub, etc. I don't know too much about the make...any Canadian posters want to fill me in?

2)Nishiki Landau...about 1979, no wheels, everything else there, nice bike.
3) badly crash-damaged Bianchi, about 1984, nice components
4) Peugeot UE-8, most components...frame looks good, one 1/4" dent in the top tube, handlebars, levers, rear der. not original.
5) And the find of the year for me... a white, late 70's Gitane Tour de France!!!...Reynolds 531 tubing...enough of the decals remaining to clearly identify. This bike had been messed with quite a bit, but the frame whheels and brake calipers all look good and original.

Here's the run down:
Crankset--Sugino "mighty Competition" - 49/42t...this can't be original??
Pedals--Lyotard "Rat Trap", Mod. 460, I think.
Brakes--MAFAC Competition...no levers.
Stem/Bars not original
Derailleurs--changed to Shimano Titlist.
Hubs--high flange Shimano/Shimano QR's
Rims--Araya-light alloy 27x 1 1/4 reinforced eyes, but galvanized spokes.
Seat--Vetta on steel post...likely not original.
Freewheel--Shimano 5 speed 14-17-20-24-28t.

Does someone want to give me the details on what the original components would have been and the likely year of manufacture?

I hope this encourages some of you...the bikes are out there...build up your knowledge base, carry on with life and keep your eyes open...when you see the goods ones you'll know it!!!

   RE: Gitane TdF posted by Eric Amlie on 4/9/2002 at 8:45:10 PM
I bought a '70 or '71 (anyone know how to date these?) Tour de France from the original owner. It had a Sugino Mighty Comp. crankset on it which the owner swore is how it came when he bought it new. I have since changed it over to a Stronglight 93 which seems to me to be the "proper" crankset for this very French bike. Aside from the French sizing and threading oddities it is a very sweet riding bike. I actually prefer it to my '71 P15-9 Paramount tourer.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Happy Days... posted by Warren on 4/9/2002 at 11:15:34 PM
Your blue and yellow Gardin was a popular bike here in Toronto. I'm fuzzy on the exact details of who owned/manufactured Gardin bikes but they made many different models...most of them middle to high end. They went "under" about 5 or 6 years ago and I think the quality of the last bikes was suffering but the earlier models could be very nice riders. Not collectable but worth putting on the road.

   Gardin posted by Steven on 4/9/2002 at 11:37:46 PM
Although I am not in Canada, I can tell you about the history of Gardin. Joe Gardin set up the company in the West end of Toronto after he got Canadian distribution rights to Cambio Rino derailleurs. At the time, he was running a forklift company (where he earned his money). He then brought over a master frame builder from Italy. He initially sold bikes under the Cambio Rino name in the early 80's, then moved on to sell Gardin bikes in the mid-80's. While far from being what I would call high quality, they offered an incredible value for the money, giving competent bikes for comparatively little money. At the time, if you wanted a quality bike in Eastern Canada, you would go for a custom-built Marinoni (they are still around)out of Montreal or a Mariposa out of Toronto. I heard that the Gardin went bust in the 90's under perhaps questionable circumstances. You will nonetheless be happy with the bike.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Happy Days... posted by Gralyn on 4/10/2002 at 12:11:09 AM
Your post does give me some encouragement - especially after this past weekend. It was very discouraging for me. I had found a couple of old Nishiki's - one in particular was very light - and I especially wanted it. It was at a thrift store - but it hadn't been processed and priced yet. As it turned out - between Saturday evening and openning time on Sunday - all the good bikes got gone. I have been really upset to have discovered that. I have wondered how many good bikes really never make it to the store floor. Only the really crappy one's got put out for sale - the good one's - someone with connections got them, I guess. Well, reading your post does give me some hope - I may yet find a good light frame to build into a fixed gear bike. Of course, if I had plenty of money - I would just buy what I want - but money is very limited - so I hit thrift stores when I can.

Hey, with Spring here - there will be yard sales!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Happy Days... posted by Rob on 4/10/2002 at 9:29:49 PM
Slight correction...the one good Gardin rim is Record Serie Professional, not Ambrosio as I previously stated. The Ambrosio rim with an Suzue front hub inexplicable survived the crash that evidently befell the Bianchi...rear Bianchi rim didn't survive...Does anyone know who makes the Record Serie Professional?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Happy Days... posted by Rob on 4/10/2002 at 9:30:27 PM
Slight correction...the one good Gardin rim is Record Serie Professional, not Ambrosio as I previously stated. The Ambrosio rim with an Suzue front hub inexplicably survived the crash that evidently befell the Bianchi...rear Bianchi rim didn't survive...Does anyone know who makes the Record Serie Professional?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Happy Days... posted by ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/10/2002 at 10:45:05 PM
You're mentioning Gardin ! I have a lot of old Gardin catalogs from Canada.

Who wants Gardin catalogs? e- mail!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   one of my two commuting/transportation bikes posted by: John E on 4/9/2002 at 7:08:31 PM
This specimen is a bit taller than mine, but these are decent photos of a ca. 1980 PKN-10, for any Peugeot fans out there. The "3 tubes renforces" 531-mix frame can accommodate 28mm tyres and has eyelets for racks and mudguards, but is lively and responsive.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   one of my two commuting/transportation bikes posted by Hallyx on 4/9/2002 at 8:09:03 PM
That dimbulb sure doesn't know what pics to take or info to give (pedals, brakes...sheesh). Are those really Campy hubs and derailers and headset? Looks like it says "Campagnolo" on the frame. Hard to tell much from the photos. Is that worth keeping an eye on?


   RE: Peugeot posted by Eric Amlie on 4/9/2002 at 9:07:25 PM
I think that lettering on the top tube that Hallyx thinks might say Campagnolo is actually the model name and may say "Competition". I have a bike that looks just like this but is probably a lower model. My forks have the chrome ends. It says "Course" on the top tube. The tubing is Peugeot 103 (I think later known as Carbolite 103). As with my Gitane Tour de France (see post above) it is a sweet riding bike, especially being a relatively low end model. There is just something about that French bike ride!

   RE: Correction posted by Eric Amlie on 4/9/2002 at 9:09:25 PM
My forks do not have the chrome ends. Brain going faster than the fingers.

   Peugeot PKN-10 posted by John E on 4/10/2002 at 2:11:47 PM
The top-tube decals read, "Competition," as opposed to "Super Competition" (i.e., PX-10) on one side, "hand-brazed" (in French and in English) on the other. Carbolite 103 frames of the same vintage have very similar lion-and-checkers graphics, but no Reynolds or "hand brazed" decal. Original components are Simplex B9 crank with factory-drilled 52-42 rings and a Swiss-threaded BB, Peugeot-labeled aluminum Simplex derailleurs, Normandy Luxe Competition hubs, and better-than-Campy Galli single-pivot sidepull brakes.

   that's "Stronglight", of course, not "Simplex" posted by John E on 4/10/2002 at 2:13:41 PM
The crankset is a Stronglight, with their traditional 122mm BCD.

AGE / VALUE:   GB 130 mm stem posted by: ChristopherRobin2@starmail.com on 4/9/2002 at 3:14:57 PM
e- bay item#1818716521 G. B. 130 mm stem

Take a look where the wedge fits in between the slots in the alloy.
This is where mine broke off. Also these G B stems are not the older and more finely finished stems but rather the later day 1970's Raleigh Record stem. By about this time Raleigh had played a part in destroying the smaller independent companies like GB. The nut and bolt is crude looking and every time I see these I wish I had something of G.B.'s that was older.
Not my auction, no relation to seller.
I don't consider these to be in the same league as the death stem but still, I don't like these.
This particular one looks unused to me.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1-Speed posted by: Nuts on 4/9/2002 at 11:09:04 AM
Is it possible to get an old 1-speed lightweight road bike? If so I'd like to get my hands on one. thanks.

      1-Speed posted by John E on 4/9/2002 at 3:11:00 PM
How about a track bike from the 1950s or 1960s? The wheelbase will probably be comparable to that of a modern road touring bike.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1-Speed posted by smg on 4/9/2002 at 3:45:46 PM
While you're looking for the real thing (swap meets, eBay, etc.) you can easily build something you can ride. Take whatever bike-boom 10-speed you have or can find/afford and fit it with a single BMX freewheel replacing the cluster and derailleurs. Expect to have to fiddle with the crank to get the chainline right, but you don't have to spend a lot of money. This conversion seems to lively-up the bike all out of proportion to the reduction in weight; not sure why. Enjoy!

   fixed-gear posted by John E on 4/9/2002 at 6:42:07 PM
I think a fixed-gear conversion could "lively-up" a bike, but I doubt that a single-speed freewheel would have the same effect.

   RE:fixed-gear posted by Dan on 4/10/2002 at 12:57:06 AM
I bought a 1980 Schwinn Collegiate single speed this week and after a stare down I thought ditch the mini-flare fenders put on some drop-bars and I'll have a nice single speed road bike !

   RE:fixed-gear posted by Gralyn on 4/10/2002 at 2:31:55 AM
I would recommend fixed gear over single speed free-wheel. It makes for a very interesting ride - and it gives you a better work-out on your bike. Plus - it gives you more of a "oneness" with your bike.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1-Speed posted by Keith on 4/10/2002 at 4:26:50 PM
To get a real flavor for early 19th century, I once built a fixed gear bike around an Indian Avon Roadster frame, which had about the same frame geometry of many bikes back then (68 degree seatube angle, super long wheelbase). It was fun to ride for a while -- then I gave it away.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1-Speed posted by Keith on 4/10/2002 at 4:27:59 PM
Oops -- I meant early 20th century. Early 19th would be a hobby horse.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Question #3 posted by: Hallyx on 4/9/2002 at 1:53:06 AM
Just for fun:

Why are pedals threaded with right-hand threads on the right and left-hand threads on the left? Seems counterintuitive to me.

I know why the recommended pedal torque spec is an incredibly high 30/35 lb/ft. So what difference could thread direction possibly make?

And why is the right-side bottom bracket bearing cup left-hand threaded?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Question #3 posted by Steven on 4/9/2002 at 2:22:34 AM
The pedals have opposite threads so they will not come undone when pedaling. On both pedals, the act of propelling the bike forward would lead to further tightening of the pedals instead of even possibly loosening them. The same holds true of the bottom bracket cups. Your comment about it likely being overkill given the proper tightening is also true, however back when the idea was first mooted, the tolerances were not nearly as good as now and therefore the possibility to tighten sufficiently was not possible. This same idea of tightening as you go forward also is teh basis of the fact that virtually all bicycles have the drive chain on the right, as this would automatically tighten a screwed on cog using standard threads.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Question #3 posted by Steven on 4/9/2002 at 2:26:06 AM
The pedals have opposite threads so they will not come undone when pedaling. On both pedals, the act of propelling the bike forward would lead to further tightening of the pedals instead of even possibly loosening them. The same holds true of the bottom bracket cups. Your comment about it likely being overkill given the proper tightening is also true, however back when the idea was first mooted, the tolerances were not nearly as good as now and therefore the possibility to tighten sufficiently was not possible. This same idea of tightening as you go forward also is teh basis of the fact that virtually all bicycles have the drive chain on the right, as this would automatically tighten a screwed on cog using standard threads.

   thread direction posted by John E on 4/9/2002 at 3:28:24 PM
To Steven's correct answer, I append an observation and an explanation.

Although British and old Swiss-standard (Austrian, Swiss, German, 1980s French, etc.) bikes do indeed have anticlockwise-threaded fixed cups, Italian and very old French BBs use RH threads on both sides, and these wrongly-threaded fixed cups DO self-loosen if not torqued down very securely, preferably with LocTite. (My first-hand experience is reinforced by Sheldon's website.) I read somewhere that the LH-threaded fixed cup was a British invention, for which the French and Italians were unwilling to pay patent royalties. It is also possible that they preferred and manufacturing economy and simplicity of using the same threading on both sides.

Second, the counterintuitive tightening arises from the epicyclic action of the ball bearings; if you had primitive greased bushings, a RH-threaded right pedal would indeed be self-loosening. As you push the right pedal forward, the ball bearings themselves rotate anticlockwise, but their inner surfaces push the spindle in a clockwise direction. (You can demonstrate the effect using any set of ball bearings, such as an old hub or pedal with the dustcaps removed.) Despite the specified tightening torques, a RH-threaded left pedal or LH-threaded right pedal WILL self-loosen. When a friend tried to make up a crossover tandem chainset from three regular Sugino cranksets, he found that both left-side pedals (RH-threaded for the synchro chainrings) and the captain's right-side pedal (LH-threaded "left" crankarm) self-loosened rapidly in normal use. He resorted to re-threading/cross-threading the cranks to use RH-threaded pedals on the right and LH-threaded pedals on the left.

   RE:thread direction posted by Keith on 4/9/2002 at 6:01:34 PM
Good explanation John -- it's always seemed counterintuitive to me. My non-original favored method of removing pedals illustrates it: once I get the pedal loose a couple of threads, I hold the wrench on the pedal flats, and PEDAL FORWARD -- this REMOVES the pedal. Pedal backwards for instalation.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions #2 posted by: Hallyx on 4/9/2002 at 1:32:46 AM
Here's the next question:
I've got my bulletproof Weinmann concave rims nice and true, with only a small dent/hop of no consequence. But the rear rim sits 5mm off center to the right. This is not "dish," the rim is actually closer to the chainstay and seatstay.

I'm not sure whether to move the rim over with spoke tension or to start swapping axle spacer washers. (The rear triangle strings out as being .5mm to the right. Certainly acceptable for a street bike.)

I'm not ready to install my drivetrain yet; I think this is going to effect the alignment.



   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions #2 posted by Oscar on 4/9/2002 at 1:54:39 AM
The point is to have the rim even between the stays. If you can swap spacers that would be the easiest thing, but you only have a cone and a locknut on the non-drive side to play with. I think you are going to wind up dishing the wheel. Good luck.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions #2 posted by Steven on 4/9/2002 at 3:37:16 AM
When a wheel is 'Dished,' it means that the rim is perfectly centred between the two points of contact between the axle and the inside flat of the drop-outs. As the rear hub has a major space taken up by the cogs of the freewheel, you must either increase the total width of the axle or have the chain side spokes be shorter in length. As the structural integrity of the rear axle lessens as the axle gets longer, you must balance the strength of the axle against the desirability of having equal length and thus equal tension among the spokes. I hate to mention that Oscar is right, as it means that you will now need to learn the real meaning of 'dishing' a rear wheel. Weinmann Concave rims, because of their engineering and heft, are among the most difficult rims to redish. Good luck. Back in the 80's when I was building wheels to help pay my way through college, I used to demand an extra dollar for wheels built up with Weinmann concave and any of the Italian rims with spoke washers (Nisi, Fiamme...) My rims of choice were first the Mavic Module E, then the GP4, the G40 and Superchampions. I never had much luck with Araya and other rims from the Orient. Nowadays, I like the Campagnolo rims.

   wheel dish posted by John E on 4/9/2002 at 3:37:50 PM
Step 1: orient/organize the axle spacers to achieve the best possible chainline. This often entails setting the smallest cog so that the chain just clears the dropout and seatstay in high gear.

Step 2: now adjust the lengths of the spokes to center the rim in the frame. If the rim is too far left, loosen all left-side spokes 1/2 turn, then tighten all right side spokes 1/2 turn. Repeat until centered, then fine-tune and true. I recommend either comparing the rim position with the wheel backward and forward or checking the frame alignment (using a ruler and strings from the head tube to the dropouts), to make sure you are not mis-dishing the wheel to compensate for an asymmetrical frame, although I understand that some modern frame builders now locate the right dropout farther from the centerline to accommodate 10-speed freehubs without overdishing the rear wheel.

   Question question posted by Oscar on 4/9/2002 at 4:27:13 PM
I've heard about but have never seen Weinmann concave rims. Do they curve outward(toward the axle) or inward (toward the bead)?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions #2 posted by Keith on 4/9/2002 at 5:45:38 PM
Use of a frame for dishing is not recommended for the obvious reason that the rear triangle can be misaligned, but if you do it make sure to flip th wheel over -- the postion of the rim should be the same with the cogs on the right and the left. The entry level Park dishing tool is not very expensive. Dishing is important both for proper tracking and to help prevent undue stress on the rear axle. The profile of a Weinmann concave rim curves inward toward the spoke bed. They are fairly wide, heavy, and apparently intended for touring. I'm currently using a set on Campy high flange hubs, 5-speed 120mm rear, flat release levers.

   concave rims posted by John E on 4/9/2002 at 6:47:29 PM
The concave inner surface serves as an arch, which supports and distributes the tension of the spokes.

   RE:concave rims posted by Hallyx on 4/9/2002 at 7:39:42 PM
As usual, great suggestions and advice. Thanks. Flipping the wheel around and checking centering from both directions just never occurred to me ....Duh!

This hub came with three 2mm (eyeballing) washers between the cone and locknut on the LEFT side, just about the amount of my problem offset. I now think they were misinstalled. Apparently, this old Campy rear hub was originally designed or intended for 120mm dropout spacing, then axled and spaced to fit into a 126mm. Old bikes are sooo befuddling.

The Weinmann concave rims, as described, are arch-shaped in section with the high point of the arch furthest from the hub; the spokes enter the apex or top part of the arch. But, just as important, the tire trough is nominally rectangular in cross-section. This leaves roughly triangular shaped hollow tubes behind the rim flanges, making them very stiff and strong.... and heavy.

Btw, although not as streamlined as modern "aero" rims, they are, surprisingly, more aerodynamic than typical square section rims. (Don't get me started on bound vortices )

Again, thanks,


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions #2 posted by Keith on 4/9/2002 at 8:37:09 PM
One last point -- if these are old vintage spokes and nipples you might end up with some fairly serious windup as a result of your truing efforts, since either no spoke prep or long since dried up linseed oil may have been used. Make sure you turn the nipple about 1/2 turn past the point you want it, and then back to where you want it. I was able to get a bad flat spot out of another set of W. Concaves by loosening all of the spokes, carefully bending the rim back into place, and then retensioning the spokes and redishing ther wheel essentially from scratch.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions #2 posted by Hallyx on 4/9/2002 at 9:25:41 PM
Thanks for the tip on "windup" (twisted spokes), Keith. Those spokes/nipples had been soaking in Liquid Wrench along with my frozen freewheel. I turned them all out a couple turns, squirted WD-40, and turned them back before I started truing. Even then, I had to CAREfully hold them with duct tape-covered vicegrips while I adjusted them. A pencil mark on the spoke assured me they were not twisting.

Thank goodness my slight hop will not require such elaborate correction. Great advice...duly printed and filed in my goofy-old-bike repair notebook.

Thanks again,

   spoke torsion posted by John E on 4/10/2002 at 2:26:43 PM
Doing this can be a bit of a pain, but has anyone else tried holding the spoke shaft with pliers whilst turning the spoke wrench? Once a wheel is built, pretensioned, and prehaps even test-ridden and broken in, this is yet another technique to avoid spoke torsion during that final tune-up truing.

Incidentally, piano tuning manuals uniformly recommend over-tightening each string by about 1/8 turn at the peg, then backing off with the tuning hammer (wrench) until the desired pitch (tension) is reached. Using this trick, I can get my 1928 Wurlitzer Apollo 5-foot grand to hold pitch for a few weeks instead of a few days. (Unlike guitars and violins, pianos do NOT improve with age, and the newer ones hold pitch far longer than the older ones do.)

I have never tried the analogous operation of overtightening each spoke (by 1/16 turn of so?) and then backing off to the desired adjustment.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions #2 posted by Keith on 4/10/2002 at 8:44:56 PM
I've used the "turn past" method for some time, and find that it works -- BUT, it still isn't foolproof for eliminating windup, at least for the home mechanic like me. My wheelbuilding mentor says it's a matter of experiance and touch (one reason handbuilding is superior), and really, the 1/4 turn isn't right -- it may be less or more depending on the position and tension. He says building with bladed spokes is a good test of this acquired skill (I have yet to do this). I've also found that dabbing a bit of Phil's Tenacious oil inside the eyelets seems to help the spokes unwind when you stress the wheel (sproing!). As far as I know, no one's ever offered a special tool to hold spokes in place -- have you ever encountered one Steven? (I've heard of attempts with vice grips and a piece of inner tube.)

   Wheelbuilding posted by Steven on 4/10/2002 at 11:34:02 PM
My own preferred method was to generously grease the threads of the spokes (any kind of grease that you want, although I used mainly bullshot)in such a way that some grease would pass on to the outside of the nipple. This ensured that the nipple would not bind with the spoke or the rim. I also only accepted to use new spokes of the same brand as every brand seemed to have varying rates of stretch and twist. Aero spokes, contrary to what is noted above, were easier than most to build as the flat in any cross pattern would come in contact with the flat in the crossover spoke. I always stressed the each and every spoke cross and then the whole wheel before completely tightening the spokes. I believe it is natural to overtighten the wheels somewhat and then back off during the final truing, But I would say that it is necessary or even advisable to use this as a tried and true method. I still ride my racing tandem with 25 mm tires on Mavic MA40 rims built 13 years ago. They have never been retightened and are still true.

   RE:Wheelbuilding posted by Keith on 4/11/2002 at 6:52:11 PM
Steven is absolutely correct, and I mispoke -- what my more experianced wheelbuilding friend said was not that spokes are harder to build with -- rather, they will show immediately whether the builder had mastered the feel for windup.

   RE:RE:Wheelbuilding posted by Keith on 4/11/2002 at 6:53:34 PM
P.S. I'm speaking of aero spokes above.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions: Various and sundry posted by: Hallyx on 4/9/2002 at 1:20:06 AM
Not to monopolise the board, but I have a few questions. I'd like to post then separately so as not to confuse myself. Here's the first.

Any opinions on "VVVintage Vintage Bicycle Cleaning Kit?" Is bronze wool any better then the brass wool I find commonly available --- or stainless wool?

What are "spoke sticks?" I thought everybody just used an old toothbrush inside a T-shirt with Simichrome or some such (like my mother taught me when I was 10).

Is "VVVintage Mixture" any better that Happish Simichrome or Wenol, or Brasso ...or toothpaste, for that matter?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions: Various and sundry posted by Stacey on 4/9/2002 at 11:53:06 AM
Ooooooo........ You asked "THE" question.

Biting the hand that feeds us, eh?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Questions: Various and sundry posted by Cal on 4/9/2002 at 6:43:55 PM
Well, don't use stainless wool or steel wool or you will scratch your chrome.

AGE / VALUE:   Alex Singer bike for sale posted by: Steven on 4/9/2002 at 12:41:33 AM
There is an Alex Singer for sale on E-bay. While not the more exciting touring version, it is still very nice. Take a look: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1819002091

   wow! posted by John E on 4/9/2002 at 6:52:47 PM
Thanks for posting. Objectively, it is superior to the early 1960s PX-10 which sold for $7000+. It will be interesting to see where the bidding goes on this one.