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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

MISC:   First Dumpster Dive posted by: Bryant on 6/28/2002 at 9:23:11 PM
I found what I first thought was a Panasonic 10 speed in the dumpster today. As I was stripping the brakes from it I saw that the derailleurs were Shimano 600. Since I was riding my bike, I thought I'd come back and get the rest of it with my car. When I got it back home I saw Schwinn decals on the downtube, but the headbadge was definitely Panasonic. Now I think I heard of Panasonic making Schwinns, But I didn't think they would put the Panasonic Headbadge on it. Anyone hear or see this before and do you know what model it is?? Or Did someone just do a repaint and add the decals?

   RE:MISC:   First Dumpster Dive posted by Walter on 6/29/2002 at 12:23:45 AM
Panasonic did indeed make many if not most of the "Schwinn Approved" lightweights such as the various LeTour models. I too have never seen a Panasonic label on one but Schwinn imported them by the thousands so you never know.

MISC:   Tour de France posted by: darryl on 6/27/2002 at 8:40:14 PM
What is a good website to watch live action of the Tour?

   RE:MISC:   Tour de France posted by Steven on 6/27/2002 at 10:26:29 PM
OLN is showing it on TV. Maybe you could check out their website.

   RE:MISC:   Tour de France posted by Keith on 6/28/2002 at 2:29:19 PM
The official website is pretty good. It has reports updated every few minutes when things really heat up, graphics on key rider posisions,elevation maps of the course, photos and commentary by notables including Phlil "Unbeleivable!" Liggett, and Chris Carmicheal (Lance's coach).

AGE / VALUE:   FUJI Special Road Racing posted by: Gralyn on 6/27/2002 at 6:20:14 PM
I didn't have a Fuji in my colletion...and I had been keeping my eyes out for one....and today - I found one. I suppose I really bought it for parts...specifically, the Quick Release skewers, and other misc. parts. I only paid $3.99 for it. The rims are rusted pretty badly....I doubt they will clean-up. Also, the pedals are rusted to the point I don't think they will clean up either.
I'm guessing at the date: 1980
It has 5-speed cassette
Cotterless cranks
QR front and rear
Dual position brake levers
Hex bolt for stem - instead of allen bolt
Foam handlebar grips.
Old-looking leather saddle.
Pump pegs
Down-tube shifters

With the exception of the handlebar grips (the black foam rubber kind....very deteriorated!)...other than that - I would think mid-70's. It has the same front sprockets as a Japanese I have from 1975....and all the other features scream 70's

The frame looks pretty good...but has a lot of surface rust...there's no way I can save the original finish...it would have to be a re-paint.
It also has the chrome fork-ends....which are also rusted.

Does anyone have any idea on this bike? I am assuming it rates along side a Peugeot Grand Sport, or a Schwinn World, etc.

I didn't see a frame sticker....there is one there...but I couldn't make it out...and am not sure it is for the frame material. I don't think it's a 4130, or 531, etc. It's pretty light...but not that light....kind of like most of the average 80's lightweights.

If anyone has any experience or knowledge of these - please pass on the info.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   FUJI Special Road Racing posted by Keith on 6/27/2002 at 9:01:32 PM
The 5-speed freewheel, and to a lesser extent the downtube shifters, indicate early 70s to me. Maybe an S-10. What does it say on the rear derailleur? (Suntour V, etc.).

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   FUJI Special Road Racing posted by Walter on 6/28/2002 at 11:12:34 AM
It's probably a 1970s bike. The foam grips are a brand called Grab-Ons or a copy of them. They would have been added to the bike though they I used Grab-Ons starting in the late 1970s so they could be nearly as old as the frame.

Fuji had a proprietary tubing called "Va-Lite" a vanadium alloy. Made a reasonably light frame, probably what yours is. Somethings suggest it's a lower-line bike. The hex nut on the seat clamp. Since you describe the rims and pedals as rusted I assume they're chromed steel, not aluminum. If so I doubt the bike is a S-10 which was a higher line bike, unless somebody "dressed down" a S-10 frame for some reason. With a bike that old, anything is possible.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   FUJI Special Road Racing posted by Gralyn on 6/28/2002 at 11:31:19 AM
I'm leaning toward 70's on this one, too. A few other things: it has SunTour. Dia-Compe brake levers (dual position) It has center-pull brakes. Nitto stem and bars. The rims are chromed steel. They do have a brand on them - but I didn't have good enough light to make it out. The saddle looks really old....and it's leather. The pedals are small for this type bike...and they look like they were made for using toe clips....and they don't have reflectors on them either. Actually, the bike doesn't have any reflectors now that I think about it (every bike I have ever picked up - had reflectors). Another neat thing....with the exception of the pump pegs - it has no braze-ons. None at all. There are 3 neat-looking chrome (but rusty now) clamps along the top tube to secure the rear brake cable.

Amazing too, comparing this one with my other Japanese bike - the zebra kenko / golden sports - from about 1975. The zebra kenko looks almost new for it's age....but this one looks like it's been in a high moisture climate for a long time.

It's a Special Road Racer.....not a Special Road Racing

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   FUJI Special Road Racing posted by Jonathan on 6/29/2002 at 7:29:07 AM
"Team Fuji" had 4130 quad-butted tubes. It's a fast bike, esp. for 1984. Check the fork rake. I'm no champ, but it can keep up with the latest bikes. I'd find out if it's a Team Fuji, the fix up is a good bet to make you like a pro on the road.
IMHO, the bike looks fantastic with less than $50. The bike is 21 pounds with campy wheels (slurge) and Sugino crankset/Atom peddles and Diacompe brakes. The S-10 is not the same look or feel.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   FUJI Special Road Racing posted by David on 6/29/2002 at 10:45:28 AM
My 70s Fuji catalog (unfortunately missing the last page with the specs for this) has the S10-S as the lowest end model with pump pegs (and they're marked "Special Road Racer"). The next model up ("America") touts its alloy rims, so I think the S10-S has steel wheels. Leather saddle, 3 cable clamps, no "safety levers" or toe clips pictured, downtube shifters, cotterless low-end crank, cloth handlebar tape. I remember them as good-handling but not very lightweight bikes. (sizes 21,23,25") They were extremely popular in the mid-70s.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   A potential eBay $ record in the offing? posted by: Walter on 6/27/2002 at 4:38:56 PM
eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116597181 is the Real Deal, a Mario Confente with documentation being sold thru CyclArt.

Will it dethrone that PX10 as the top (at least that I've seen) bid attractor for an eBay bicycle?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   A potential eBay $ record in the offing? posted by Keith on 6/27/2002 at 6:05:51 PM
You beat me to it -- I was just about to post too. I hope it does top the PX-10 -- go to this site, read the story, and get an idea of why I feel this way. http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/mario_confente_home.htm

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   A potential eBay $ record in the offing? posted by David on 6/29/2002 at 10:57:45 AM
Amazingly beautiful bike.

   A potential eBay $ record in the offing? posted by John E on 6/30/2002 at 8:27:49 PM
I saw that bike in person two weeks ago during a 4-man "Capo reunion" at CyclArt. I would definitely rank it above a PX-10 in both quality and collectibility, but the open auction market is always full of surprises!

MISC:   Shimano hubs, Must you buy the highest $ to get a good hub? posted by: Robert on 6/27/2002 at 12:31:48 PM
Is it necessary to buy high dollar hubs to get decent wheels? I realize that there is a great divide between Acera and 105 Shimano hubs. But if you only ride maybe a 1000 miles a year divided between a couple of bikes it would seem that the "lower" grade Acera would do fine.
Older bikes , ie Raleigh Sports, used a pretty basic front hub but were ridden by many on a daily basis for a fair amount of miles. I have not heard of any wave of failures of Raleigh front hubs.

I don't plan on doing a tour or weekly centuries, just riding when I get the time. (Not often enough) So if lower quality hubs are maintained , shouldn't thay last for many miles??
Looking for your comments.


   RE:MISC:   Shimano hubs, Must you buy the highest $ to get a good hub? posted by Steven on 6/27/2002 at 1:16:59 PM
You can probably get by with the cheaper version without any problems. Production tolerances of robotic machinery today are such that it is hard to get a hub that is not acceptable. The cheaper price is usually accounted for with cheaper and weaker axles, ball bearings, cup races and cones. But, as you say, you will use lightly and maintain well.

   RE:MISC:   Shimano hubs, Must you buy the highest $ to get a good hub? posted by Keith on 6/27/2002 at 6:27:58 PM
In a few cases, the lower priced items are actually more durable. The Veloce rear hub, for example, has an oversized steel axle -- the Record, Chorus, and Centaur use aluminum (although these oversized axles are basically bomb-proof anyway). The Veloce rear is smooth, built to last, and relatively inexpensive. The Veloce front is nice too-- traditional cup and cone. Unless you're already stuck with Shimano for some reason, I'd give the newer Campy stuff a good look. Internet stores sell a set the Veloce for about $50, and the front for about $18. Another example of a good less expensive component is the lower-end Ritchey Logic headset, which is surprisingly smooth and durable given it's low price.

   RE:MISC:   Shimano hubs, Must you buy the highest $ to get a good hub? posted by Warren on 6/27/2002 at 9:57:00 PM
I suspect there may be very little difference between many of the older Shimano lines...during the late 80's they had about a dozen different groups. It's a lot of branding and marketing.

   Campagnolo quality posted by Steven on 6/27/2002 at 10:09:01 PM
The former production director of Campagnolo who led me for a number of tours through the plant always complained that Campagnolo was not able to sufficiently differentiate between their top, mid and bottom line products. Keith's comment is therefore very valid, if possible go for a low-end Campagnolo.

   RE:MISC:   Shimano hubs, Must you buy the highest $ to get a good hub? posted by Keith on 6/28/2002 at 6:40:58 PM
Campagnolo's last few sales brochures only reinforces the prod. director's observation -- the groups are even arranged in a similar way, and look a lot alike, no doubt in part because some of the key forgings nad patterns are used in multiple groups, with the only real difference being finish. I suppose those who'd settle for nothing but the best will always get Record anyway, while those who seek the best value will look at Chorus and perhaps Centaur (fka Daytona fka Athena), and bargain hunters can look to Veloce. BTW, those of you who haven't should go to the Campy official site -- they've got complete small parts catalogs with exploded diagrams. One of the things I like most about Campy is that you can still buy every little bolt, pin and gear that they use, and repair or rebuild the components. On the other hand, to tie this into the vintage discussion, the other day a local mechanic and I were discussing Campy Ergo v. Shimano STI. I use two sets of Ergo shifters and they're fun. But I also use old Campy downtube friction shifters and ratcheted Suntour barcons. At some point the STI levers wear out, and the Ergo will have to be rebuilt. But the friction shifters, which are already very well used, will likely never need service at all.

AGE / VALUE:   Children's racing bike posted by: Steven on 6/27/2002 at 4:40:32 AM
Take a look at the following bike up for sale on French Ebay. Fits the bill for anybody looking for a bike for their 8-10 year child.


VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Enfield info posted by: Ted L. on 6/27/2002 at 12:38:09 AM
Any information wanted on a English Royal Enfield Firefly 10 speed, circa 1960's,center pull brakes say 'Vainaueur/999',chrome Huret derailers, front chain rings very close to being the same size? Are these scarce, I haven't seen one of these before, a great looking bike!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Enfield info posted by ken on 6/27/2002 at 8:15:46 PM
That's Vainqueur, I believe. The halfstep rings suggest a classy bike.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic Groupo bike posted by: Keith on 6/26/2002 at 3:54:44 PM
For Stephen and the rest of you, here's one of the examples of stunning French componentry, a world apart from the crummy Normandy/plastic Simplex stuff of the early 70s. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1839222532

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic Groupo bike posted by rickey@knowles bicycle shop on 6/26/2002 at 5:14:58 PM

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic Groupo bike posted by Ray on 6/26/2002 at 6:54:24 PM
Stunning French Componentry? More like a league of nations. Here is the posting with my input in (paran).
4cd mavic rims (French) continental supersport ultra 700-23c tires (German),time pedals and shoes size 10 (French), cinelli stem and bars, cork tape (Italian), 7sp dura-ace cluster (Japan), 52-39 chainrings, two campagnolo aero water bottles (Italian), full mavic group (French). At least the bikes with the crummy Normandy, plastic Simplex stuff were all French. Still a nice bike but a mutt none the less;)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic Groupo bike posted by Dick on 6/26/2002 at 7:06:34 PM
Yes. Very nice. But then look at the starting price (reserve not met yet) compared to the going price for the "crummy Normandy/plastic Simplex" equipped bikes of the 70's. And manufacturing technologies and capabilities are far superior today. Plastic mechanical stuff (the Simplex rear derailuer was Delrin) was very hi-tech in the late 60's when it was first introduced. Comparing your nice example to a 70's equipment is "apples and oranges".

   Pretty bike regardless posted by Walter on 6/26/2002 at 7:48:24 PM
I don't know if the "mutt" label is fair. Many bikes are "international." DA freewheels are the best FWs around IMHO and a welcome improvement over any French made ones.

Mavic drivetrain componentry is relatively rare which is unfortunate b/c they outperform the Simplex stuff hands down and are a viable alternative to Asian derailleurs if you're not building a Campy bike but want to stay Euro.

I do think that bike is overpriced but I'm not familiar with "Davidson" frames.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic Groupo bike posted by Keith on 6/26/2002 at 8:34:03 PM
Some of you are completely missing the point. This is a continuation of an earlier discussion in which I remarked, somewhat unfairly, that French-made components are junky. Although it's true to some extent -- and a fair observation as applied to the typical low to mid-range French stuff of the early 70s -- this Mavic groupo is an example of French design and manufacturing at its very best. I know at least two local guys who have boxes of vintage Campy stuff who'd say this Mavic stuff was at least as good or better than the Campy of the day, and would love to have this groupo. I have a set of these Mavic hubs and they are smooth as glass after almost 20 years. I can't say whether the frame is worth anything, or whether the price is fair. As for the plastic Simplex-equiped bikes of the early 70s -- I know some of you guys seem to really like them. That's fine. But over the years I've found that if you put a lot of miles on your bike, it's best to go high-end, not to be elitist, but because Campy, Phil, and the components of similar quality will work better, last much longer, and not break down like the cheaper stuff will. In other words, you get what you pay for. BTW, this Davidson is not a contemporary bike -- it's from the mid-80s.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic Groupo bike posted by rickey@knowles bicycle shop on 6/26/2002 at 10:26:53 PM
to spite what can be said it's sweet

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic Groupo bike posted by rickey@knowles bicycle shop on 6/26/2002 at 10:27:24 PM
to spite what can be said it's sweet

   RE:  Mavic semi-Groupe bike posted by Steven on 6/27/2002 at 5:05:46 AM
Sorry to be pedantic, but lets try to get terminology correct. Campagnolo and other Italian component sets are 'gruppi' which is the plural for 'gruppo'. French component sets are 'groupes' which is plural for 'groupe'. Further corrections include that this bike is not full Mavic at all, as it lacks the headset, stem, pedals and bars. The Mavic stems and bars were never anything special, but the headsets and pedals were superlative. Furthermore, because it has the Mavic name does not make it a French component. Modolo made most of the Mavic-branded brakes in Italy. As Keith pointed out, the French components on this bike are indeed of superior quality. The SSC hubs are among the smoothest and longest-lasting hubs in the world (sorry Campagnolo and Shimano). The rear gear has the durability of the best Campagnolo gear and the option of moving the cage to the perfect distance from the largest freewheel cog, making it among the best shifting old school derailleurs with close-ratio cogs or with freewheel cogs having higher numbers of teeth than was ever possible with Campagnolo (not speaking of the Rally). The brakes are surpassed by most contemporary models and the chainset is downright ugly. The $1000 asking price is only in the seller's dreams. This bike is neither vintage nor modern, with a mish-mash of parts, built up on a little known frame-builder's frame. Although it might be the best riding bike around, it does not deserve anything more than $600-800 in my opinion.

   RE:RE:  Mavic semi-Groupe bike posted by freeespirit on 6/28/2002 at 8:33:17 PM
Bill Davidson was a frame builder from the pacific northwest (around the Tacoma-Seattle area), when I got to visit his shop in the late 70's. He had one of the better road racers ( possibly Jacques Boyer) of that era to ride his racing bikes. I saw his frames for sale in REI's in the SF bay area. I've also seen his name listed in the framebuilders section of bicyle guide up thru the 90's.

   RE:RE:RE:  Mavic semi-Groupe bike posted by Steven on 6/28/2002 at 10:27:02 PM
Thanks for the information about Davidson.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Relacing w/used stainless steel spokes posted by: darryl on 6/25/2002 at 11:16:41 PM
Does anyone see any problem with relacing a galvanized laced wheel with used stainless steel spokes? I stripped a few wheels of their SS spokes about ten years ago and the spokes appear to be in pretty good condition. I recently bought a Fuji Espree w/ clean frame, alloy components and Valite tubing but has unsightly galv. spokes. Thanks, Darryl

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Relacing w/used stainless steel spokes posted by Steven on 6/26/2002 at 5:56:08 AM
Darryl, the problem with re-using spokes is that they have stretched according to the stresses in the original wheel. This means that they have generally had unequal stress and therefore stretched differently. It is therefore nigh impossible to get them to build a durable wheel the second time around.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Relacing w/used stainless steel spokes posted by Mark R. on 6/26/2002 at 5:07:56 PM
You can only get away with doing that on a wheel that is not under high tension, like a kids bike or sometimes on an older roadster or such that is only going to be ridden slowly, and isn't laced as tightly, but I would argue against doing so on a racing wheel. It could lead to catastrophic failure of a wheel.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Relacing w/used stainless steel spokes posted by Robert on 6/26/2002 at 5:57:05 PM
Here is some additional info on when to re-use and when not to.


   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Relacing w/used stainless steel spokes posted by Steven on 6/27/2002 at 5:20:18 AM
I was perhaps too hasty in my note above. Yes it is possible to rebuild a wheel with the same spokes under the particular conditions described by Jobst. Reality does however enter in the discussion when the shop doing the rebuilding calculates how much to charge you for rebuilding the wheel as described. Switching the spokes over one by one will require more than double the time needed to build a wheel from brand new spokes, hence it is likely that the building charge will be at least double too, which likely equals the value of the new spokes. Besides, having worked a long time in a shop, I can tell you that wheel building is one the pleasant breaks that you get from working on other peoples' filth, so to be obliged to build a wheel using used (read dirty) spokes is not a suggested way of ingratiating yourself with a master wheelbuilder.

AGE / VALUE:   Gitane Tour de France posted by: tom berger on 6/25/2002 at 9:14:52 PM
I have a '76 Tour de France frame (double-butted AL),Strong-
light crank with vintage Campy equip except for the Sun Tour
front derailleur. Am having a hard time finding parts, plus
the frame is becoming scratched. Any advice out there?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Gitane Tour de France posted by Keith on 6/26/2002 at 6:06:05 PM
Try: www.Renaissance-cycles.com, www.CycleArt.com, or www.bicycleclassics.com

AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh posted by: Tom on 6/25/2002 at 2:35:35 PM
I've been offered a bike, the seller (a bike shop)wants £100, it's a raleigh 12 speed, it's got stickers on saying "phoenix racing" and "4130 tubing", toe straps and looks in pretty much as new condition. I want something for weekend rides in the hills, my old peugeot has just about had it. It was a pretty cheap bike but was reliable and was a good ride for the money, 501 tubing etc, does this Raleigh sound about on a par with it. I am only a casual rider but I would be willing to part with a little more if it meant getting a noticeably better machine.

Thanks, Tom

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh posted by Warren on 6/25/2002 at 9:31:17 PM
You can do much better. Look around, check local papers and bulletin boards. Ask the list for a bike and give a size.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh posted by Keith on 6/26/2002 at 5:58:34 PM
I agree completely. Campy-equiped full db tubing bikes from 70s to 80s go on eBay regularly for $400 - $700, and can really be a bargain. Mid-range stuff, like you describe, are much cheaper. I don't know whether you have garage sales or yard sales across the pond, but I find the kind of bikes you describe at such sales for $20 to $40 (last one was a second-year Trek 520 for $25). Of course a shop will want more.

AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by: Wings on 6/25/2002 at 6:28:59 AM
I found a Raleigh Super Course Mark 2 today. It has these components:
Normandy Hubs,
Wiemann Rims,
Nervar Crank (First one I have ever found),
Down tube shifters,
Huret Jubilee Rear Derailer -- the most beautiful, shiny clean Huret I have seen -- that is why I bought the bike!
I don't know what tubing is used.
I don't know where the Super Course Mark 2 fits in with the other Raleighs! I really don't need another bike either but I could not pass up the rear derailer!
I appreciate your comments.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by Kevin K on 6/25/2002 at 11:56:35 AM
Hi Wings. Bikes like your Raleigh should be kept intact. It's English with nice components. Too many of the nice bikes from Europe have been parted out. If she's pretty complete and in good shape there is a collector out there that would love to have it just as it sits. Just my 2 cents. Enjoy, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by Keith on 6/25/2002 at 1:55:18 PM
I didn't know the Super Course ever came with the super light, sought-after Jubilee. (I know the Competition did for a time.) What kind of lugs does it have?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by smg on 6/25/2002 at 4:42:56 PM
The "Super Course" of the '70s seems to have meant a straight-guage 531 main frame, presumably with lower-grade forks and stays. Go to the "Retro Raleigh" site for a tabulation of specifications over the years. Yours would seem to be from 1974 or 1975. A very similar bike, identified as a 1974, is currently being offered on eBay as a frame and separated components (1838290068 et al.)
This model was a step up from the Record and Grand Prix, with a slightly better frame and components. I have a somewhat earlier one that is a very enjoyable ride. Good catch!
I would take catalog specifications of components of bikes of this era as an approximate guide only. There was a lot of variation and substitution due to availability of components at the moment. I would not at all be surprised to find Nervar instead of Stronglight, Huret for Simplex, or Ideale for Brooks--even before past owners started refitting the bikes to suit their tastes.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by Rob on 6/25/2002 at 9:45:11 PM
Hopefully I'm not adding confusion, but I thought the Mark 2 had double butted 531 main tubes and 531 forks and stays... Sounds like the bike is pretty well original...what color is it?? I think the choices were red and a coppery green. The crank sounds interesting...what is it...52/42 and 165mm?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by Wings on 6/26/2002 at 6:13:42 AM
I checked Retro Raleighs and it seems to fit the 75 year model.
It is luged but I do not know my lugs to say what it is.
52/42 Chain Rings.
Red with white head tube. Chrome stays, chrome fork ends.
"Carlton" is on a big sticker on the seat tube.
"Carlton Race Proved Workshop England" is on a triangle sticker on the fork.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by Keith on 6/26/2002 at 6:16:34 PM
Wings, the Super Course was a nice bike, but as lightweights go, it was low mid-range. I'd say it's as low end as I'd personally go and call something of this era worth collecting. I believe that by 1975 Raleigh was no longer using the more ornate and more vintage Nervex Pro lugs on the Super Course. These gave the earlier year models some additional charm. Stil, the '75 gets points from me for using Reynolds 531, whether it's db or not. Did anyone find out whether the Jubilee was ever spec'd on the Super Course? I think the Jubilee is worth as much as the rest of the bike by itself. Given that you can find nice Raleigh Pros and Internationals for $400 to $700, with full db 531 and Campy NR stuff, and Competitions go for $200 to $300, I'd say the Super Course you describe is worth about $125 to $150, including the Jubilee, assuming it's clean. As is the case with similar vintage lightweights, the intrinsic value this bike has as a means of reliable transportation outweighs any value as a collectable. In other words, ride it.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Super Course Mark 2 posted by Wings on 6/27/2002 at 6:24:29 AM
Thanks guys!
Keith -- thanks for the information. The bike will clean up and look great! I will do that in the next couple of weeks and see that it is ridden again -- but the jubilee will probably be replaced with another derailer as it is cool!

I have the unique situation of collecting bikes I enjoy (I prefer Moto, Schwinn, ...) and gathering bikes to fix up and keep a charity supplied so those without cars can get to work and back. I do not sell bikes --so far. So I am always looking for bikes of all types. Today I found a Free Agent 16 inch wheel BMX for $1.99; a Robinson Chrome BMX (Awesome) for $14.95. The Raleigh was a deal -- only $1.95!!!!!!!!! But I don't collect Raleighs -- oh well I do like the folders, and then there is the colt 3 speed that decorates the kitchen ... so I do like them also but I usuallly find them a good home.

Thanks again guys!

AGE / VALUE:   Ciocc Road Bike Info posted by: jesboogie on 6/25/2002 at 4:03:36 AM
Hi, Im looking for info on a bike I might buy, a Ciocc (she-osh? ) bike, decent paint, with full Shimano 600 group. Colombus tubes, I think. Looking to date it. Thanks in advance.

Jesse D

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Ciocc Road Bike Info posted by Mark R. on 6/26/2002 at 5:15:22 PM
It's a Ciocc, pronounced cho-ch (rhymes with roach, choch with a long "O"). Probably from the mid eighties.

   RE: Pronunciation posted by Eric Amlie on 6/26/2002 at 8:01:21 PM
This is great! I've been watching this and a parallel thread on the Classic Rendezvous list. There have been about five different pronunciations of this name authoritatively put forth. One by a guy with a very Italian sounding name. I'm waiting for Steven (who apparently lived in Italy for some period of time) to weigh on this.

   RE:RE: Pronunciation posted by Steven on 6/27/2002 at 10:00:26 PM
Ciöcc is most definitely not an Italian word nor does it follow Italian grammatical rules and cannot therefore be pronounced using standard Italian phonetics. The best explanation that I have heard is that it comes from a regional dialect from Lombardy and has to do with cards. I have always heard it pronounced as one single syllabel made up of an initial sound similar to 'chee' and completed with a conclusion similar to 'otch'. For your information, I am fluent in 6 European languages and can state categorically that the spelling Ciöcc makes no sense in any of them. It is likely simply made up to get people like us to discuss their name.

   RE: Thanks! posted by Eric Amlie on 6/28/2002 at 12:45:08 PM
Thanks for your input Steven. With your knowledge of languages, I'll go with your pronunciation.

AGE / VALUE:   Ciocc Road Bike Info posted by: jesboogie on 6/25/2002 at 4:03:36 AM
Hi, Im looking for info on a bike I might buy, a Ciocc (she-osh? ) bike, decent paint, with full Shimano 600 group. Colombus tubes, I think. Looking to date it. Thanks in advance.

Jesse D

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Ciocc Road Bike Info posted by Brian L. on 6/25/2002 at 2:43:58 PM
All of the Ciocces I have ever seen in the round and on ebay have been very nice bikes with good workmanship and tube selection and better paint than most Italian frames. In general, value will be higher with Campy components and pantographed (engraved or silk-screened to match the bike brand) parts. I believe that it's pronounced Che-o(long vowel sound)ch.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Ciocc Road Bike Info posted by Warren on 6/25/2002 at 9:47:50 PM
I've been told by a reliable source that it is Chee-oak. They can be very nice. Details about everything would be needed to date it properly.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Ciocc Road Bike Info posted by jesboogie on 6/26/2002 at 10:58:16 PM
Thanks for the info. I put a down payment on it. Its costing me $300. 100% rideable with new continental clinchers. Hope to have it in my posession soon. Will put up a pic or two then.

Jesse D

BTW, these are three pronunciations Ive gotten so far,

* "cho-ch" rhyming with coach,

* Cio as CHo in chopped,and cc like a "k" in
key, Try to say "tchokk"

* the ci sound is ch, second, the o is oh, third, the cc is ch not k because the cc is
following an o, actually an io making it a soft ch sound.
"chi oh ch"

Tomatoe, tomato anyone?!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   stripped hanger posted by: Ron on 6/25/2002 at 3:18:04 AM
I stripped my hanger while removing the rear derailleur when the dropout was bent.D o I have to go back to running Simplex or can I rig it to continue using Suntour? No cheesy adapters please.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   stripped hanger posted by Stacey on 6/25/2002 at 10:42:49 AM
You might try a Heli-Coil insert to effect a thread repair. Any good auto parts store should carry them.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   stripped hanger posted by Hallyx on 6/26/2002 at 12:51:23 AM
Please, no cheesy adaptors. Yes, they are commonly used on cheaper bikes. Buy also on older classic bikes. They can be replaced if bent, thereby saving your dropout or saving you the incovenience (special tooling required) of straightening a dropout.

Also, with only a hacksaw, drill and file, you can custom build one to extend the range of gears a given derailer can accomodate. I'll be using a 32 tooth cog (maybe a 34) with my Nuovo Record rear derailer. Try that with a cast-in hanger.

I'm not big on braze-ons, anyway. I think brightly polished pump clips, shift-lever brackets, bottle cage straps, cable guides/stops and, yes, adapter claws (derailer hangers) are pretty and add a sparkling vintage essence to an old bike.