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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   simmons - wood wheel bike posted by: Steve on 12/28/2003 at 10:09:17 PM
I found a Simmons wooden wheeled bike - How old is it? I have no information on it. Can someone help me out?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: simmons - wood wheel bike posted by jack on 12/29/2003 at 3:09:37 AM
Try counting the tree rings.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   simmons - wood wheel bike posted by sam on 12/29/2003 at 6:15:37 AM
I don't know that brand but generaly woodwheel american bikes were pre 1940.They did make some track bikes using wood rim but I'm not up on those---maybe some others can add to that.---sam

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   simmons - wood wheel bike posted by Gralyn on 12/29/2003 at 3:26:33 PM
...still keeping my eye out for something old. Haven't been so lucky to find something with wooden rims.
....sounds pretty old to me!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vintage Bridgestone posted by: jack on 12/28/2003 at 4:14:43 AM
In a decrepit, dingy bike shop lies an old Brigestone 10-speed. Looks like 60's or 70's 23". Has multi-plate fork-crown and the plainest and thickest lugs this side of a Raleigh Sports. Surprisingly clean brazing, looks like stored most of its life. Also has a real attached headbadge, albeit plastic. Any interest to/from BOB-heads?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Randonner Bars posted by: Gralyn on 12/28/2003 at 3:18:12 AM
I think maybe the spelling is correct - Randonner Bars - Anyway, I've discovered that I really like them. I have several old bikes that originally came with this type bars - and I like the way the look and feel. I think they look pretty cool.

Does anyone have a particular preference when it comes to bars?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Randonner Bars posted by jack on 12/28/2003 at 9:40:47 AM
I've converted several road/tour bikes from dropbars to uprights for greater comfort. Some list members point out the loss in ability to drop down out of the wind on longer rides. I agree, and have thought about trying randonneur. Maybe someone out there knows where to get some at a good price as I hesitate to pay $50 or more plus stem if necessary.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Randonner Bars posted by Gralyn on 12/28/2003 at 3:00:40 PM
No, these are still drop bars: the difference is that instead of making a straight horizontal plane from each side of the stem - and before the bend for the drops.....these start out straight but then curve upward slightly before the bend for the drops.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Randonner Bars posted by Gralyn on 12/28/2003 at 3:15:08 PM
Here's what they look like: I found some on e-bay:


   RE:RE:RE:  Randonner Bars posted by Ken on 12/30/2003 at 3:26:04 AM
three notes: 1. Sakae made a nice randonneur bar marked "Randnner" which may explain the spelling variation. 2. "randonneur" translates roughly as tourist, and is distinguished from racing by the French who pay attention to this stuff. 3. Next time you part out a rusty Schwinn Continental see if it has the beautiful randonneur bars made by GB (Burgess) in England, by far the best component on the machine.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Randonner Bars posted by Walter on 12/30/2003 at 3:28:46 AM
I can remember helping unbox and assemble Schwinns around 1977 or so and seeing Randoneur bars on some but not all Continentals. Don't know (or remember) if the Contis with them were somehow special or if Schwinn just shipped X% out that way.

I agree with JONatan that they do look cool. I'm sure I've owned a set somewhere along the line but can't recall for sure.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Randonner Bars posted by Don on 12/30/2003 at 3:42:48 AM
I found these bars to my liking many years ago & grab them up whenever I find some. most are SR SAKAE brand & the Japanese mangle the spelling on the bars as "Randnner", I also picked up a few "Pivo" bars from France. Don"t know if anyone else made them.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Randonner Bars posted by T-Mar on 12/28/2003 at 3:42:21 PM
The Nitto Randonneur handlebars usually sell for $25-$30 US, though I occassionally see them as low as $20 US. Try your LBS first, but Harris Cyclery, Bicycle Classics and several others offer them via mail order if you can't get them locally.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Randonner Bars posted by jonC. in desMoines on 12/28/2003 at 6:50:21 PM
and all this time I thought the bars on a few of my bikes were bent! I guess its a good thing I didnt try to straighten them!Just picked up a couple of older schwinn ten speeds that have the described bars. thanks!

     Randonner Bars posted by John E on 12/28/2003 at 10:36:58 PM
Randonneur bars, very popular in the early 1970s, were once standard equipment on much of the Nishiki line. Since the forearm's neutral/relaxed position is similar to that of a handshake, with the palm vertical or facing very slightly downward, some cyclists, particularly those who do not keep their elbows tucked tightly inward, may indeed find randonneurs more comfortable than conventional drops.

   RE:  Randonner Bars posted by Gralyn on 12/29/2003 at 3:18:06 PM
I've seen them in the LBS.....for like $20 - $30. I remember being surprised to see that you could still get them. Well, I have a few: I know one set came on an old Nishiki, another set on an old Ross.....I may have 4 or 5 of them.

   RE:RE:  Randonner Bars posted by JONathan on 12/29/2003 at 10:53:12 PM
I've got a few of those, one is "Champion" (Japanese) as I recall. Pretty nice bars. None of my riders have them. The true drop bars or touring (flat) drops are best for me, so the Randonneurs are hanging high. Whatever advantage they offer is lost on me. I find the flat or slight downturned top to afford great grip flexibility. Just an individual preference, I must profess.
I guess it depends on how one rides. In my case, the grip is almost constantly shifting...only way to avoid the "tinglies" after a few miles.
Sometimes I push with the heel of the hands against the bars, the upturned top section makes this feel unstable...not that it is stable in any configuration!
Not recommended grip! Also, you have the braking issue. The racing contour and regular touring shape, especially the former, allow for quick access to the brakes, IMHO.
They do look cool, I have to admit. Makes for a mean looking front profile.

AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot PA 60 "Gentlemen" posted by: John R on 12/26/2003 at 11:39:33 PM
What a stroke of luck, a matching pair of Peugeots! They are very similiar to the model PA60 Gentleman and the PE25 Mixte on the Classic Rendezvous, Peugeot site. I believe both were imported privately because there is a bike store sticker on the Mixte from Bruxelles and the rear fender has the holes in the edgest with ferrels for the skirt net.

The PA60 is almost exactly like the one pictured at the Rendevous French catalog page, white frame, blue Bluemel fenders and small front rack. The only difference is the saddle. In the 1976 photo it is listed as an Ideale 80. The one on the bike I have is an Ideal 2001 like the ones listed as standard equipment in the 1975 catalog. Perhaps the bike was manufactured towards the start or end of a model year change.

I have some experience with U08s but I have never seen a PA 60 before. Does anyone know how to determine an accurate date of manufacture by the ID number? I've looked at a couple of websites but have not located much regarding Peugeot ID numbers. Any info is greatly appreciated.

AGE / VALUE:   The aesthetic of Lugs posted by: John S on 12/26/2003 at 8:25:52 PM
Tis a season for many to be thankful for something. Among many more important things, I am thankful and a sucker for fancy lugs! Hetchins-type fancy is not my favorite, do love the Nervex Pro, though not rare, pretty just the same. Paramount and Mondia's I do have, chrome Nervex looks so fine! Also have an early 70's Nishiki Road Compe with some of the longest points I've seen, though not nicely filed and finished, these chrome head lugs look great. Oh, I've got an 80's Italian-made Paletti, kinda plain lugs, but with pantograph engravings in every one of 'em! Then there is the 3Rensho, simple, understated, but subtly elegant and unique Japanese design aesthetic.

What are you thankful for?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   The aesthetic of Lugs posted by John E on 12/27/2003 at 9:22:03 PM
I concur with your post, and I have posted a few Capo pictures under the bikeforums.net / classic & vintage / "show us your classic ride" thread. Living a km downwind of the ocean, I try to avoid chrome, but a two-tone paint job can set off head lugs almost as well as chrome.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Headset Height posted by: jack on 12/25/2003 at 12:59:15 AM
After 20yrs of using a (ugh)Tange replacement fork on my Raleigh Int'l, I found an almost suitable replacement w/sloping crown, 531 and Campy tips w/eylets. Only trouble is, its about 1/4-1/2" too short. Yes, I can replace the steerer tube but a headset with a low stack height may also work.

Anyone know the lowest height headset for English 1"? Would a threadless take up less space?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Headset Height posted by Walter on 12/25/2003 at 1:54:39 AM
If by "threadless" you mean the modern headsets I don't think that would help you. The stem clamps onto the steerer tube so you'd actually need more steerer tube to try that. Also, I have no idea how the presence of threading would affect the ability of a threadless stem to clamp onto the steerer tube. There are extensions for threadless set-ups but if you're that short on steerer tube I doubt one would safely clamp on.

You could convert to full threadless but then you're alot farther from "authentic" than you are with that Tange (which aren't bad forks).

I'm afraid I can't recall alot of stack height info.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Headset Height posted by Warren on 12/25/2003 at 2:12:03 AM
A 1/4 to 1/2 inch is a lot...what was the original stack height? The lowest modern headstacks are in around the 30mm height. Old Dura Ace 7600 and Campag Pista for instance. That is the minimum you will need. If you want to measure it, I have a Sutherlands and Barnetts and can reference the closet ones. However my manuals are older and don't have the latest ones out there but I suspect the threaded steerer headsets haven't changes too much.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Headset Height posted by schwinnderella on 12/25/2003 at 2:29:00 PM
Jack ,if you decide you can not use the fork I may be interested in it.I bought a Raleigh International frame last summer without the fork. I believe my frame is 21.5" and I think I need a steerer tube about 6 3/4 to 7"?thanks

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Headset Height posted by Derek Coghill on 12/25/2003 at 2:33:30 PM
For a threadless steerer, the top of the tube should be about 3mm (I think) below the top edge of the handlebar stem. Best not to use a threaded fork for this, as the thread-cut tube is a lot weaker than an uncut one; with the captive nut under tension I wouldn't like to chance it.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Headset Height posted by T-Mar on 12/26/2003 at 1:09:15 AM
I believe Jack's suggestion of a threadless headset is feasible, however in doing so he will have to convert to a threadless stem, which may be undesirable. Profile and other companies make a adapter (approx. $20) that permits modern 1-1/8" threadless stems to to be used with 1" forks equipped with threaded headsets. The adapter looks like a quill stem without the extension and fastens via a traditional bolt and expander plug. The diameter that inserts into the fork is 7/8", but is 1-1/8" for the top few inches where the stem clamps. Used in conjunction with a threadless headset and stem, the adapter would solve the problem, providing the appearance is acceptable. A spacer could be used between the headset and stem so that the stem is not clamped to any section of the protruding steering column.

A more radical approach would involve using a low stack headset and some frame mods. Since it's an International, I assume that it has a Campagnolo Record Strada headset with a 39.1 mm stack height. The lowest, road stack height that I'm aware of is the Shimano 105SC, advertised at 32.7mm, which would gain you 6.4mm (approx. 1/4") If this headset alone does not provide the necessary thread engagement, then it is always possible to mill some material from the upper and lower faces of the head tube. Most frames have have enough head tube extension beyond the lugs to remove 2-3mm (approx. 1/8") from each end. It may also be possible to mill about 1 mm from the fork crown seat. You can probably gain about 5-7 mm (approx. 1/4") of extra thread engagement, which may solve your problem if used in conjunction with a lower stack headset. Just don't remove too much material such that the headset cups will contact the top and down tubes!

The down side to milling the frame, besides expense, is that it will lower the front end by the amount equivalent to what is removed from the fork crown and lower head tube face. This will steepen the head angle and quicken the steering, though it may not be sufficient to be noticable.

More significantly, the milling will affect the appearance of the lugwork. Typically, the lug collars that extend around the head tube are 6-10mm at the front, so reducing this by 2-3mm may alter the appearance too much for your liking. Some people may also feel that removing matrial from the collar weakens the head tube too much, in that it provides necessary reinforcement when inserting the headset. Personally, I don't believe this is a problem, provided the headtube is reamed to the correct dimensions for a proper interference fit. Remember that many of these same tubesets were used on TIG welded frames, without a reinforcing collar for the head tube.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Headset Height posted by jack on 12/26/2003 at 8:59:32 PM
Thanks to all for your suggestions. I may be out of luck with this fork unless I go a radical route which I was not planning on. I guess the Tange isn't so bad it's just not as period-correct as I would like.


AGE / VALUE:   Campy Differences posted by: John S on 12/24/2003 at 4:39:45 AM
Earlier post discussed differences between the Campy Gran Sport and Valentino front derailleurs. I happen to have one of each and here is what I can tell upon observation:

Gran Sport has chrome cage, adjustment bolt & spring, front clamp, clamp bolts and cage through bolt, the Valintino had galvinized or steel. Gran Sport box body is thinner and so the lever mechanism that actuates the pushrod is shaped different. At the back of the cage, the Gran Sport has a screw/washer/nut to complete the cage, the Valentino has a riveted affair. The Gran Sport cable fixing bolt is a bolt and nut through an unthreaded hole, the Valintino fixing bolt screws into the lever. The Gran Sport cage is fixed to the pushrod by a cap screw on the top of the cage (which is chromed), the Valentino cage is affixed by a cap screw in front.

My thought is the Gran Sport was Campy's 50's top-end front cable actuated front derailleur, supplanted by the parallelogram design in the 60's. The Valentino was the mid/low level, beefed-up, cheapened, refined-design Gran Sport for the early 70's (maybe late 60's too).

     Campy Differences posted by John E on 12/24/2003 at 6:12:42 PM
I concur with John S.'s assessment of the GS and Valentino front derailleurs. The GS, standard on many high-end road bikes of the late 1950s and early 1960s, gave way to the much more durable and better-shifting Record, just as Alpine and crossover gearing began to replace half-step. My 1959 Capo came with a GS front, which I had to scrap because the bore in the case had worn so severely that the cage would no longer track decently. (It was never a good derailleur, anyway, although the upward angle of its pushrod did make it work better than its Simplex equivalent, which had a horizontal pushrod. In stark contrast, I consider the Campag. Record front derailleur of the 1970s to be one of the best ever made.)

AGE / VALUE:   modolo brakes posted by: Michael Looney on 12/24/2003 at 2:20:26 AM
I have a set of modolo brakes in good shape are they worth anything.

    modolo brakes posted by John E on 12/24/2003 at 6:16:15 PM
They are very nice brakes, but for collectors they are greatly overshadowed by Campag. In the 1980s, Bianchi reserved the Campag. groupo for its top-end bikes, and provided its midgrade bikes with Modolo brakes and Ofmega cranksets.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   modolo brakes posted by T-Mar on 12/26/2003 at 1:18:15 AM
It all demands on which model you have. As John E. states, most of the common models were overshadowed by Camapagnolo, however there were some very good Modolo brakesets that are quite desirable and should fetch a good dollar; Kronos, MasterPro, 90 Master SLK and 90 Supertitanium.

AGE / VALUE:   ELVIS! Start here... posted by: Stacey on 12/23/2003 at 4:02:59 PM

This seller has a lot of 4 hubs. On of which is a 36 hole S/A 3pd unit. It will lace up to just about any 700c/27" alloy rim you happen to have laying about.

Hesitant about wheel building? So was I, until I found an excellent "How-To" at www.sheldonbrown.com complete with links to numerous Spoke Length Calculators. A plethora of information just a few mouse clicks away! From there it's just a matter of installing a a shifter (A cool vintage top tube mounted unit would be sweet!) then running the shift cable.

Want to go tres cool? Leave the rear derailler on and run a double (or triple) chain ring up front for six or nine speeds. Let your imigination be your guide and have fun.


AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR"BLUE"GROUP posted by: Kevin K on 12/23/2003 at 4:16:09 PM
Hi all. I just purchased a nice used Suntour Blue Group. It's different than others I've seen as the part that should be blue is black. This does not appear to be faded from blue either. Has anyone ever seen a " BLUE " group that is black like this one? Thanks, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by Rob on 12/23/2003 at 7:23:04 PM
Hi Kevin

I've got a "Blue" group on an early 80's Bianchi...I find the group (or derailleur set, I guess is the better terminology) appealing and am on the lookout for others...my only thought is the obvious one, maybe someone painted over the original blue with black...as the areas in blue are all more or less straight lines and in recesses, it would be easy to do...Can you find a hint of blue somewhere

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by Kevin K on 12/23/2003 at 8:27:41 PM
Hi Rob. Nope, these babies are black. THe front derailleur has the Suntour BL on it. It would have been nearly impossible to have painted it. These are not faded, but rather simply black. Yea, I too like the look of them. I usually only buy NOS but for some reason bought these sight unseen, not even pictures on line a couple weeks back. The guy described the blue area as black but I though he was simply mistaken. No, they are black. I've installed an NOS set of Blues on a Scarlet Red Schwinn Voyageur 11.8 I've got. The red is a candy color so the contrast with the blue set looks great. I've yet to locate a set of shifters. Also, 2 different style front Suntour Blue derailleurs were offered. On the rear, short and long cage. The one in question is a long cage, my NOS is short. A man contacted me a while back and sent me photos of the correct chain for the group, Yep, a chain with every other link in blue. Nice but.............maybe not. At one time these would show up on ebay every so often. Not any more. Bummer. I'll bet your Bianchi looks good too. Enjoy. Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by T-Mar on 12/24/2003 at 3:31:17 AM
Kevin, I have seen a SunTour BL rear derailleur with black banding. It was a short cage model (RD-3200, 24T max., 24T capacity). I don't know if the colour corresponds to the cage length/model or not. The blue samples I've seen have been either medium cage (RD-3600, 26T max., 30T capacity) or long cage (RD-3300, 34T max., 34T capacity).

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by Rob on 12/24/2003 at 6:16:54 PM

The set I have more or less matches the set shown in the CR site...I have the short cage rear der.


but the shifters which otherwise look the same do not have a blue background (I should say the original shifter, as one was missing when I got the bike)...after a bit of a search, I found several other shifter sets and partial sets...none have a blue background...the configuration with the hole at the top and "SunTour" below does not seem to be very common...I assume these shifters were also used with other derailleurs and the one that was left on my bike may not be original...I'm going to start watching for the black version...

Cheers, Rob

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by Rob on 12/24/2003 at 6:21:03 PM
I should clarify, after re-reading Tom's note, that my rear der. may be a medium cage...it's definitely not 'long'...I'll check the model numbers when I get home (well, maybe in a couple of days...), and if they indicate something different I'll post again...

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by David on 12/24/2003 at 7:11:46 PM
Hey Kevin. Would you accept used BL DT shifters for your Voyageur project? I think I have a pair.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by David on 12/24/2003 at 7:12:40 PM
Hey Kevin. Would you accept used BL DT shifters for your Voyageur project? I think I have a pair.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SUNTOUR posted by KevinK on 12/25/2003 at 2:00:41 PM
Sure. Check your emails. Kevin

AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by: Ed on 12/21/2003 at 2:38:29 AM
Does anyone here know anything of the Bauer nameplate for bicycles? I know they made motorcycles a long time ago and that they used to make some fairly decent bicycles, too. I am hoping to find out the year and or value of this bike.
I have a Bauer that I am guessing is from the 1950's. It is red in color with chrome chain-stays and fork ends. The drop-outs are Campagnolo, front and back, it is a 10 speed with very small cogs in back (again, campy parts here, too) It has an old steel Campy rear deraileur and a square body front deraileur (steel). The bike is very lightweight steel with Nervex lugging (chrome lugging) that is just simply beutiful. On the top tube (barely readable, heavily faded) are the words "1952 Modello de Weltmeister". On the seat tube, the word Bauer is in place and shows a color picture of a man's face.
Overall, this is a very cool bike, but I can not find out anything about it. I need a seatpost and seat for it and some vintage brakes. Just not sure what brand of brakes were on it. Please help me! If anyone is interested in trading or purchasing this bike, feel free to let me know. I tend to favor the old balloon tire bikes more. Thanks in advance for any help.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by Steven on 12/21/2003 at 3:58:31 AM
Ed, What model Campagnolo derailleur is it? If the rear derailleur is original and is a Gran Sport, the bike could be from the 50's or early 60's. If it is a Record derailleur it is from the 60's and if it is a Valentino or Nuovo Valentino, it is from either the 60's or 70's. The front derailleur you describe appears to be either the Gran Sport or Valentino model. Both of these models are quite similar, with the Gran Sport model having the cage fixed ti the rod with a both that threads in from the top of the rod. The Valentino has the cage attached with a bolt that threads in from the front. If the bike has Campagnolo hubs, you can usually get the exact year of production by checking the hub locknuts and cones for date codes which were stamped by Campagnolo. Generally they say Cam and the two digit year. If you have some photos of the bike, you can send them to me and I will try to give you more info.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by T-Mar on 12/21/2003 at 4:40:22 PM
Steven brings up a point which has always puzzled me, which is distinguishing a Gran Sport front derailleur from a Valentino. Steven states that the difference is in the position of the cage mounting bolt, however I have seen Valentino derailleurs with the top mounted, cage bolt, just like the Gran Sport (though I suppose this could be a Gran Sport cage on a Valentino body). However, Campagnolo catalogs from the late sixties and early seventies also show a top mounted, cage bolt on Valentino derailleurs.

I've always assumed the real difference was in the casting of the body. The Valentino derailleurs that I've seen have all had a flange where the push rod exits the body. The Gran Sport derailleurs that I've seen do not have this. I've always assumed that this was part of the Valentino re-design to add extra support/bearing surface for the push rod.

Are there any Camapgnolo experts out there who can provide a definitive answer?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by Ed on 12/22/2003 at 12:22:45 AM
Steven, thank you for your reply. I do not know much about the deraileur, either front or back. I do know that they are both not the original pieces offered with the bike. What I do know is that it is an all steel piece and kind of heavy. There is a marking on the inner side of the cage that says 13-36. There is another marking that reads "CATENA 3/32" which I assume is the chain width being that it is on the jockey wheel cage. The rear body is marked: and it is quite ornate in design.

The jockey wheels are interesting being that they are metal and appear to have serrated type edges on them and have full ball bearing mechanisms inside.
The bike shop I got the rear deraileur from had a price tag of $150 (I live in Seattle) on it. He told me that it would be period correct for my Bauer. He professed that he did not know much about Bauer but he could tell by the hubs on the wheels and the lugging that it was from the mid to late fifties.

The front deraileur is of a steel construction with the word CAMPAGNOLO at a 45 degree angle across it. The body is rectangular in shape and it is kind of heavy as well.

The bottom bracket is a stronglight piece. No crankset is on this bike, nor is there a chain.

The hubs are of a three piece construction. The cone end is stamped with "CAMP" on the top and "9x26" on the bottom. The hub body has a fancy Campagnolo script but the "world" symbol is absent. It has something that looks like a wheel with wings on it. Both front and rear hubs are of three piece design with loose ball bearings, not in a separate race piece. The rims are 27x 1 1/4". with no lettering cast into them but they do have the serrations in the middle like Schwinn rims do.

I was told that the bike was German made and that Weltmeister was some sort of race champion in 1952. Just the other day, I saw another Bauer in a bike shop, a cruiser though. It was not for sale, just in for service. No one in the shop had ever heard of the brand before, but could tell it was a higher quality bike by the level of componentry on it. This cruiser was a ladies model and it even had a campy front hub! Other than that, I would love to know how old my bike is, what it's value is or anything else that you knowledgable riders may have in the way of information. Thanks in advance. This bike is for sale, if interested.

I wish I could give you more information on these pieces, but my experience lies with the older balloon tire bikes.

     Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by John E on 12/22/2003 at 9:17:00 PM
"Welt" = "world"

"meister" = "master," or probably in this context, "champion"

This is probably a model designation, comparable to Peugeot's "record du monde."

   RE:  Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by Ed on 12/22/2003 at 11:57:47 PM
Thanks John. Any help, no matter how small it may seem could be the biggest help of all. Thanks to you, I learned another little detail. Thanks.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by Ed on 12/23/2003 at 1:31:52 AM
Steven, if you would like a photo of the deraileur, or any other shot of the bike, let me know by giving me an e-mail request. I would be happy to send some pics. Thanks.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by T-Mar on 12/23/2003 at 2:05:09 AM
There are some pics of a 1955 Weltmeister on Classic rebdevous that seem to match your description. http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Germany/Bauer.htm

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by Steven on 12/23/2003 at 3:26:44 AM
T-Mar asked about the difference between the GS and Valentino front derailleur. The front mount is a dead give-away as to a valentino, as no GS ever had that mounting. I cannot say with absolute certitude that no valentino ever had a top mounted cage. I too have seen the catalog line drawings. I have however never seen an Valentino FD with the top mount, where I could be sure it was all original. I can however guarantee that you can also tell a Valentino from a GS by taking it apart. The rod inside is different, and it has been my observation that the cable fixing part that pushes the rod is also slightly different, as is the front plate. As for basing everything on what appears in the catalogs, I should caution you that are numerous examples of the line drawings used for the catalogs differing from the production or not keeping up with the modifications. There are also many items that simply never appear in the catalogs. I believe you have to use the catalogs as reasonably accurate guides to what was produced. You should also remember that quality control 20 and more years ago was quite differetn from today and all factories thought nothing of making a change to a product midway through the production life of a product, without any notes being made of the change.

   RE:  Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by Derek Coghill on 12/24/2003 at 10:04:59 PM
Weltmeisterschaft is "world championship", so it may be a model or just cashing in on victory!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bauer Bicycle road bike posted by Bob Hufford on 12/28/2003 at 2:05:02 PM
Here is some info on the Bauer:


VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Frame ID posted by: jack on 12/21/2003 at 2:24:27 AM
I am hoping someone can possibly identify a frame I recently acquired. It's a "B"-quality Japanese road/race frame according to local frame builder with Shimano (almost vertical) rear dropouts, scalloped seat-stay ends, and long-point lugs.

The most unique features are a very small (1/4" diam) chain-stay bridge, and two elongated diamond-shaped plates that are surface-mounted to each of the seat-stays for brake-bridge attachment. Sound familiar to anyone?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Frame ID posted by T-Mar on 12/21/2003 at 4:56:28 PM
Your description does not provide any specific clues. The characteristics you describe are typical of dozens of frames. However, the brake bridge re-inforcements are indicative of good quality frames.

Once the decals are gone, it's often difficult or impossible to identify the manufacturer. However, some manufacturers do have a distingishable serial number format. While some manufacturers attempted to provide a unique identity via lug design, cutouts, seat stay clusters, etc., these design features were often copied by other manufacturers. This led to practice of engraving the brand on seat stay caps and fork crowns. Unfortunaterly, there are only a very small percentage of vintage frames that can be identified via design peculiarties, once the decals are removed.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Frame ID posted by jack on 12/21/2003 at 11:02:22 PM
Thanks T-Mar, I knew it would be a long shot. The frame's Serial# is MA00670 in case this may help in ID. The frame also has an ID# stamped on the BB from a local university, UCD. My next move is to take it there and hope that their records include make (hope it isn't stolen!). The frame is 22" which is too small for me and it will be easier to sell if I know make.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by: dent on 12/21/2003 at 12:35:23 AM
This weekend I spotted several drop-bar bike's positioned in front of a mobile home on the Old National road east of where I live. The bike's looked to be for sale but the owner wasn't home, I'll make a return visit because I'm interested in a couple of the ride's.

'70's Raleigh Team Record (Huret), '70-'80's Gitane(Simplex,SR), '80'S Schwinn Prelude(Suntour Accu).

I wish I could have found a model name for the Gitane, a seat tube decal listed all the top race's. These three were in pretty good condition with the Raleigh having the worst paint. I don't believe any of the bike's are top of the line, the Prelude was mid-level the Raleigh Team Record maybe also, if I can't pick up all three for a decent price I think I'm going with the Gitane.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by JONathan on 12/21/2003 at 8:18:29 AM
The Raleigh "Team Record" sounds interesting. I'm a sucker for the older Raleighs.
If you can only get one, try each one. The "Prelude" has nice components, SunTour Ar is good.
Personally, I would get the Raleigh. Look for Reynolds sticker on the seat-tube, or heft the bike to see how it weighs.
A regular "record" has 20/30 tubes, but a "team" might be better steel. Worth a look.
If the Gitane had Campy components, maybe Stronglite cranks, I would definitely pick that one.
Hope you get all three!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by dent on 12/21/2003 at 2:40:26 PM
The Gitane had 20-30 tube's and larger version it seem's of the Simplex rear derailleur compared to another Simplex RD bike I own, plus downtube shifters and quick release wheel's. The Raleigh I should have looked over more, I thought the tube's looked oversized. It sported a red,black & yellow paint scheme. The Gitane & Raleigh both had chrome steel rim's(forgot to check on brand). My vintage LW collection is small but I should would like to add this trio for variety. dent

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by T-Mar on 12/23/2003 at 6:44:23 AM
I'm with Jonathan on this one. I'd be going with the Raleigh Team Record, unless the paint was objectionable. Being a replica of the Ti-Raleigh paint scheme, it's a relatively rare version of the Record.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by dent on 12/23/2003 at 11:56:52 PM
The paint was nicked and scratched with rust showing in those area's. The bike's are all sitting out in the weather.
I'll return in the morning and pick up one or all three, I'm sure some extra cash on Christmas Eve will be appreciated by the seller. *MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL*

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by dent on 12/24/2003 at 8:12:40 PM
I bought the Raliegh Team Record bad paint and all. The guy selling the bike was someone I knew 25 yrs. ago who was now living 30 miles up the old road. The Schwinn Prelude was a $700 bike he said, then he wanted to sell me a World Sport for $100, I knew then I wouldn't get the Prelude under $100 and focused on the Raliegh which I got for $40(US). After I clean and read over the Raliegh I may ask some question's here about it's originality. The tubeset is Raliegh 20-30 High Carbon not top of the line but does sport the Team color's, plus it has new(w/nubs) tire's and Brook's saddle.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by JONathan on 12/25/2003 at 12:29:32 AM
I have one from the early '70's with leather saddle (Brooks); Nervar steel cranks and Simplex derailers.
It's white and orange highlights with black lug trim. Another is yellow...looks exactly like the Retro-Raleigh
pic. for 1970 catalog. Both have steel rims with Normandy alloy HF hubs. Check the Retro-Raleigh site.
$40 is about what I'd expect for one that runs, fair paint and sound frame and forks. The newer wheels and tires make it a good deal.
I've upgraded a '77 RRA and it's a great runner/tourer. I've toured with it in the mountains. You can get a triple (TA) crank set to just fit.
I have a Shimano "crane" rear der. Although it was a flagship of sorts, it has seen better days. I have a SunTour 3000 derailer that's in v. good shape to replace the crane.
A little flimsy for heavy touring, but for light touring (20 pounds) the frame rides good...and I'm over 200#'s. The 20-30 tubes are strong, but heavier than the Chro-Mo frames.
You'll be surprised at how sporty they can be with alloy cranks and wheels; bars and Weinmann "Vainqueur" 999's. They don't make tough bikes like that anymore.
You done good...plus as Tom states, the model may be rare.
Good rides.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by dent on 12/25/2003 at 6:38:45 AM
The wheelset has excellent chrome, new tire's but they're mismatched. The front is a Waymer hub with a no-name(not visible)rim, the rear is a Raleigh logo 5spd. hub with a Sturmey-Archer K25.0 27x1 1/4 rim. The paint scheme is similar to the 1976 Team Raleigh on the Retro-Raleigh site, red(maybe orange)/yellow/black, same letter styling. I'm also a little mismatched on the componet side according to their 1976 specification list, Allvit instead of Simplex, Raleigh 610 Weinmann front and Raleigh 750 Weinmann rear. It does have the Raleigh crankset. I own two other Raleigh made bike's a '63 Western Flyer English LW S/A 3spd, '69 Triumph single speed. This Record is said to be compared to the Varsity class of bike's, only a few pound's lighter.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old road find's posted by JONathan on 12/25/2003 at 9:34:49 AM
Yes, I have heard the same comparison, but I think, IMHO and having both to make direct comparison, that the similarity was price.
My Raleigh "records" handle way better than the "varsity" mainly due to the forged steel forks on the latter. I would place ride closer to the "continental" and even at that, the "record" is much more nimble and softer riding.
The "varsities" that I have would undoubtedly run my "records" into the ground, which is saying a lot, because the Raleighs are built to be ridden hard over all kinds of roads.
Riding the "record" all day is no problem for me. Just my 2.
I beleive the lugged frame and 20-30 steel tubes make for a more responsive frame. The "varsity" has 16 Ga. 1010 tubes that are welded.
You can swap the steel wheels for alloy wheels to greatrly improve things on the road.
Good luck.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by: Elvis on 12/20/2003 at 11:03:12 PM
Has anyone else ever taken a 3-spd and a vlw and built the vlw up to be like one of those old "club bikes" [i.e., a 3-spd with drop bars, etc?] I am considering it if I can find a decent 3-spd rear wheel, but in my experience they are smaller than the 27 or 700c rims found on vlw road bikes and the brakes don't reach! Anyone else tried this -- got any ideas?
I figured this can be my winter project but am stuck on where to begin.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by John R on 12/20/2003 at 11:53:02 PM
It's actually quit a bit of fun to build a "Club bike." I've done a few so far since I was introduced to Sturmey Archer hubs by a fellow who I worked with in a bike store many years ago.

What you must do is acquire a Sturmey Archer AW 3 speed hub (or a Sturmey Archer FW 4 hub speed if you can find one) and make sure it has 36 spoke holes. You can get by with a 40 hole hub but the rims are harder to find. In choosing a rim, I have found that the Super Champions work well. They are very sturdy and durable. Next, find a quiet evening and lace the hub to the rim and you're almost ready to roll. You can use the larger width chain that three speed hubs use with almost any front chainring. The only problem I have ever had with it is that it is a litte more noisy than the thinner chain that works with a derailleur. If you are lucky enough you perhaps you can locate a threaded driver for the Sturmey Archer hub and that way you can screw on a thinner cog designed for use with a derailleur on the rear and a thinner derailleur type chain which is a little quieter. It is best to use the longest axle you can for the SA hub. That way it will fit in a frame with the rear spacing anywhere from 120mm to 126. Next, you can mount the shifter anywhere from the handlebar stem to the right side of the bars, below the brake lever facing away from you or on the seatpost. A friend had a small fitting brazed onto his seatpost and mounted the shifter there. I usually mount mine on the stem but I think the next one will be on the handlebar. Cable routing is no problem, use either the SA cable stop on the down tube, or if the frame you have has brazeons, use them. I usually run the shifter wire through the cable stop on the right chainstay and use a short lentgh of the plastic liner from the inside of a brake cable to help with its movement.

I communted to work on one of my favorite bikes, a Dura Ace equipped Schwinn Prologue with Mavic rims and an SW 3 speed rear hub for years. I was even able to adjust the 6 speed down tube indexed shifter to work with the three gear positions. There was never a problem with maintenance, just a few drops of oil every now and then.

Good luck on your project!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by JONathan on 12/21/2003 at 12:25:16 AM
Clever idea using the indexed shifter lever. I use Wolber 700C wheels, which heavy duty alloy rims with spoke eyelets. I found the Vainqueur CP "999" brakes are the best for me, being over 200# on a dry day.
That would necessitate a bracket on the headset for the cable stop and another seat-clamp bracket for the rear. Right now, I'm using the sidepull Weinmanns, short reach calipers, and the brakes are just OK. Actually, not bad with the shorter reach, which just allow for the plastic Bluemel fenders. I would use a Japanese bike, like a Fuji or Nishiki as they have extremely durable construction without a lot of extra mass. The only isuue would be to do what John E. describes.
The big advantage of the Japanese frames, is the componentry is readily available and standard BB and headsets, etc.
Araya made tough alloy rims, in 27 inch size. A good bargain, too. Continental 120 psi 28-622 (or 630's) tires are a bargain, too. The casing is like rhino hide.
Good luck. I'm working up a 1969 Raleigh "twenty" as my winter garage project or I would try a "club bike" conversion myself.

   VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS club bike posted by Elvis on 12/21/2003 at 12:38:55 AM
Thanks all. One other thing; much talk about shifters. I've got a couple a shimano bar end shifters, anyone know if they would work with a 3-spd rear hub?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS club bike posted by Ron on 12/21/2003 at 1:26:37 PM
In theory, any shifter would work, but in practice, it is better to use something that is indexed to corrospond to the SA hub. There isn't the noise like with a derailer to help you adjust your shift, it is either in gear or it isn't. If you are just barely on the edge of engagement, you could damage the gears when you push hard on the pedals. This is mainly the case in the middle gear. Low is when the cable is at full tension, and high is at full slack. It is when you go from either end to the middle that you could run into problems. There is also a spot between the middle and high gears that there is no engagement whatsoever. If you can see the shifter while riding, you could mark it clearly with an index for the gear positions. I just wouldn't recommend shifting totally by feel.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS club bike posted by JONathan on 12/21/2003 at 6:18:15 PM
Based on Ron's point, it seems to me that the cable travel/click is critical.
I think that was a critical technical concern when indexing came about. The Shimano "positron" derailer had the detents inside the derailer, which made cable travel a moot point.
In the SA hub, there are detents for the low and middle gears, which stay put under constant tension. The way I see it, some experimentation is required to get the indexed shifter detents and cable length to work so that the low and middle gear positions correspond to one of the "clicks".
Of course, you could just use a three-sp. shifter. The bar-cons are nice for lots of gears, but, IMHO, with only 3 (or 4) speeds, I would not be shifting around very much. You just choose a gear and stick with it until conditions change monumentally.
Good luck.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS club bike posted by Oscar on 12/22/2003 at 3:50:51 AM
I ride a home made club bike with an AW on 700 wheels. I shift friction with the thing. Friction shifting with a three speed is more art that science, but you learn the positions fast. You pull more cable than you think with AW's, and I tend to use the entire travel of the bacron.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by John R on 12/22/2003 at 5:18:12 AM
After thinking about your project a little more, I remembered one more important fact. If you are going to get a new frame (new to you of course) then it is necessary for the rear dropouts to be horizontal, not vertical. You can use vertical dropouts with an SA hub but it is necessary to install a derailleur or some other device to take up the excess chain.

I like JONathan's idea about the Fuji or Nishiki. They are both excellent club bike candidates. I'm also partial to Univega frames. The last Club bike I built was a Raleigh Super Course. I rode it for a while but the top tube just wasn't long enough for me so I sold the bike. One of the best new Club bikes I've seen was in a bikeshop many years ago. It was a Bob Jackson frame built with everything Campagnolo except the rear SA hub. It was very, very nice! I wonder how a Rivendell frame would work? Hummmmm!

   To first post    posted by Jimbo Jones on 12/22/2003 at 5:52:22 AM
Sakei (sp) made a lightweight 3 speed back in the 80s. It had aluminum 27 1 1/4 araya rims and a q/r suze hub up front.
I found a girls model and swapped the wheelset onto a schwinn traveler boys frame. The gearing was too tall so I put on a cotterd set off an austrian one speed (175s) 44 tooth. Now it works great. I wasn't aware of a clubmen when I put it together but it sure looks like one. Fun to ride. Not sure why less gears is more fun but it seems that way.

   friction-shifting a Sturmey-Archer hub  posted by John E on 12/22/2003 at 4:26:10 PM
One of my college-era commuting bikes was my 1962 Bianchi Corsa 10-speed, regeared with a 3-speed Sturmey-Archer coaster brake hub. Since the frame was designed for 26x1-3/8" wheels, the painless conversion entailed swapping in a pair of wheels from an English 3-speed bike. I used the original Huret Allvit downtube shift lever and found it extremely easy to shift through 1st, 2nd, neutral (very useful with the coaster brake), and 3rd.

   RE:friction-shifting a Sturmey-Archer hub  posted by JONathan on 12/22/2003 at 6:08:21 PM
The Sears (Steyr-Daimler-Puch) 3 sp. was a formative mount, the likes of which competed well against the common 10 speeds of the day. Struck into near oblivion by the bike-boom (west coast) I stuck with the SA/AW without regret.
Only thing was that an equal on a 10 sp. would work gradually away while I red-lined on the 3. I never thought to swap rear cogs! Tire pressure limitation was another delimiter of speed. Flat out sprints down the street...the 3 won everytime!
Hills...forget that. Those AW just have to be the toughest transmissions every built. The knee-wrenching pops from unwelcome shifting on a climb made me shutter to look down...but nothing ever worked loose or broke inside the hub. Now, this idea of a 700C or even a 27 inch hp rim, and careful cog selection
can create a monster for the road, or backroad, too. I remember the first time one of those hubs was explored on the garage floor, with little gears and springs..funny looking washers all over the place...fear can be a great motivator. I got it back together, much more to my surprise than to any observers.
The background encouragement; "I'm not gonna' get you a new rear wheel", rang true in my mind as I fumbled along feverishly. Funny how you never think to search for a manual...or even ask an expert. That AW hub was something, it ran great and there were a few little puzzle pieces showing up on the floor long after the bike hit the road!
One gets a feeling of extreme mechanical pride when one of those hubs is successfully serviced. Actually, careful observation and moderate fine motor skill is all it takes. Most of the hubs I have gotten are from castaways that mainly were just thristy for a drop or two of machine oil. The three speed with coaster brake are the toughest to adjust, but patience prevails everytime.
Whoever came up with this "club bike"...thanks. I think my winter garage project has just changed!

AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Grand Sport posted by: Dan James on 12/20/2003 at 6:48:58 PM
Have recently acquired a Peugeot Grand Sport. 27 inch steel wheels, 12 speed derailleur(Shimano, maybe)with gear changers mounted on handlebar stem, centre pull brakes with "Peugeot" badging, Weinmann brake levers, saddle also "Peugeot" badged, black paint with chrome on lower half of front forks, white chequer transfer, Peugeot lion transfer and "Record du monde" transfer on seat tube, "Grand Sport" transfer at saddle end of crossbar, Peugeot 103 tubing transfer at top end of down tube. Not a particularly light machine, but nice to ride. Can anyone give any details on approximate age, and how it fits into the Peugeot scheme of things?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Grand Sport posted by Derek Coghill on 12/20/2003 at 10:24:23 PM

This shows old Peugeot catalogues; you should find yours in there somewhere; early 80's?