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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by: Mike on 3/16/2003 at 3:15:27 AM
Just picked up a white low-end Peugeot 10-speed from a guy's backyard for $5. Nothing fancy, but I think it could be a decent rider. Any ideas?
Serial number is under BB, on a riveted tag, red lion head tube decal, Ava bars/stem (broken from corrosion on quill), clamp-on Simplex shifters/front derailleur, rear Simplex der clamps in dropout slot, Mafac Racer centerpulls/Mafac levers, seat tube has a shim for fairly narrow seatpost, 'Record Du Monde'and 'Tube Special Allege Peugeot' decals on seat tube, rusty 52/40 chainrings, cranks, and rat trap pedals, Rigida 27" chrome steel rims with Normandy hi-flange hubs (front QR, rear alloy wingnuts), no evidence of ever having fenders/rack. That's about it, I think. Any assistance is greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by Gralyn on 3/16/2003 at 5:53:24 AM
It may be a U-08

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by JONathan on 3/16/2003 at 6:46:39 AM
The riveted ser. plate would place it early '60's, I guess. Put alloy wheels and you have a great bike, for cheap. I have a mixte UO-18 that has the riveted plate which matches your componentry. It rides fine, with the tourist bars.
The Mafac "racer" brakes are OK. The aluminum rims are superior for braking and for any climbing. That model is remarkably versatile. I have one that I rate as my favorite all-around bike. I paid out $40 US for it, and it needed a new rear derailer.
I use the SunTour cyclone in place of the busted up Sachs-Huret that was OEM.
You done good.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by luke on 3/16/2003 at 8:40:00 PM
hey, mike! sounds like you got a deal.i recentally bought
a 1971 peugeot much like yours for $75 bucks. out of 10
i place it at a 9, so im happy!my s.# is on the left
dropout and has a plastic lion headbadge.fix yours
up a little and you'll have a great ride.

   early 1970s UO-18 posted by John E on 3/16/2003 at 8:46:57 PM
You definitely have a very early 1970s UO-18. By 1974, for obvious security reasons, Peugeot had abandoned the riveted serial number plates in favor of the direct-impression system used by almost everyone else. These are comfortable, stable daily drivers, particularly when equipped with aluminum rims, aluminum crankset, and Japanese or Campag. derailleurs.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by JONathan on 3/17/2003 at 3:04:06 AM
The "Allege" is I think just another name for "high tensile" steel...like Peugeot's "Carbolite 103", which appears on others. Maybe the "special allege" is different than plain "allege". I have the "special allege" sticker on my mixte, which is not the type of frame you'd have for a high performance bike. You won't regret any small effort it'll take to get it rideable.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by Mike on 3/17/2003 at 3:40:01 AM
Thanks very much for all the responses. The s/n is a seven digit number, ending in 072. Could '72 be the year? Also, the UO-8, UO-18, etc designations - are those catalog 'model' numbers? Am so used to seeing bikes that display both the make and model name/number that it threw me when I didn't see an obvious model name (unless the 'Record Du Monde') decal was it.
BTW, on why it hadn't been ridden... When I went to service the headset, I found that the previous owner had tried to hammer the broken section of stem quill out, which severely distorted and cracked the steerer tube and threads. One reason I like these is that great swoopy fork, and would hate to lose that, but the repair costs (lots of other problems as well)are mounting up too quickly for what is justifiable (even for me), I think.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by Warren on 3/17/2003 at 4:26:23 AM
1) The serial number has nothing to do with the year... I think...although '72 is roughly the right vintage. 2) They are model numbers. UO-8 is a road bike...UO-18 has braze-ons for fenders, rack and generator. 3) Finally..there are hundreds of thousands of those forks out there and if you are patient, someone will find one for you. I've discarded a couple of these frames in the last few years. What colour do you want and we can keep an eye out for one. Seriously, there are that many of them out there. Put the bike in the "future project" pile.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   What Is It? posted by Mike on 3/17/2003 at 5:08:23 AM
Thanks a lot for the information. A white fork would match, and it would be great if I could dig one up. Or, maybe a builder could replace the steerer tube with an ISO one, since the upper headset is trashed, too...
I won't throw it away, but will have to put it in the 'pending' file for now.

   UO-8 fork posted by John E on 3/18/2003 at 12:10:23 AM
I think I saved the original white "swoopy" fork when I broke the frame of my 57cm UO-8. Are you interested? It is definitely nowhere near NOS, but it does have the original finish.

The UO-8 has a diamond frame; the UO-18 is the equivalent mixte. The European/touring versions with mudguards, lights, etc. are the UE-8 and the UE-18. The AO-8 is an economy-model UO-8 with low-flange, non-QR hubs, non-chromed forks, and half-tape on the drop bars.

   RE:UO-8 fork posted by Mike on 3/18/2003 at 4:39:52 AM
Thanks for the clarification.
You've got mail.

   RE:RE:UO-8 fork posted by Mike on 3/20/2003 at 2:58:47 AM
Well, it's like this... The blue trash day Nishiki donated a clean, straight ISO-spec fork with a like new headset to the Peugeot. At least it's on two wheels again, albeit with an inch shorter wheelbase.

AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Traveler? posted by: larry on 3/16/2003 at 3:32:47 AM

?? value on a mid 60s schwinn traveler in very good shape. it has a 2 speed kickback hub (red stripes)

PS it's a boys and it's red (has generator light too)


AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Traveler? posted by: larry on 3/16/2003 at 3:32:47 AM

?? value on a mid 60s schwinn traveler in very good shape. it has a 2 speed kickback hub (red stripes)


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Traveler? posted by Tom Findley on 3/17/2003 at 2:11:32 PM
Bendix 2-speed hub: $60
Rest of bike: $10

AGE / VALUE:   Old AMF Roadmaster posted by: Gralyn on 3/15/2003 at 5:29:50 PM
I can't believe it - I found 2 bikes this morning! One was a Schwinn World - the wheels and components were pretty rusted - but the frame was in terrific condition. The other bike - an AMF Roadmaster 10-speed. Help me out here....This is my first AMF. It's a 10 speed - the larger rear cogs are the skip-tooth kind. It has those big winged nuts on the front and rear wheels - kind of like an early version of quick release. It has no braze ons - but those old-style snap-on metal clamps. I think it has a Wrights saddle. It has 27 X 1 1/4 wheels. It has Shimano Dura-Ace deraillieurs, shifters, and brakes. The brakes are center-pull - and somewhat remind me of the old Mafac Racers....but they're Dura Ace. I believe it's all original. Is there any way to determine the date of these? Any serial number charts? I'm guessing maybe it's from the 60's - but I'm not sure.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Old AMF Roadmaster posted by Warren on 3/15/2003 at 8:33:53 PM
Dura Ace was first marketed in 73 There was some speculation that the centrepull brakes were released before the rest. There were dates stamped on the Shimano groups starting in 76. For instance a component stamped A B was made in the year of '76 (A) and the month of Feb (B). A component stamped B C was made in '77(B) in March(C)...and so on.

What colour are the components? The original Dura-Ace components were Cranes...what say yours?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Old AMF Roadmaster posted by Gralyn on 3/16/2003 at 3:12:58 PM
I had done a little research - and saw that the Dura Ace was introduced in 1973. I would have thought the bike was older than that - but - remembering back....back to about 1973 - that could be about right.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Finally Spotted a Lightweight posted by: Gralyn on 3/14/2003 at 3:07:18 PM
I finally spotted somewhat of a lightweight. It was a ladies model...Schwinn Traveler. The neat thing about it - is that it is the mate to a mens model I already have. It's Celeste Green....just like mine....everything is the same - except that it is a ladies. It was more than I would usually pay - considering I wouldn't be riding it - and that I couldn't re-sell it.
But, I decided...I will go back today....if it's still there - I will get it. I would either keep it - to have a his-hers package - or maybe use all the components, wheels, etc. on another frame.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Finally Spotted a Lightweight posted by WIngs on 3/15/2003 at 7:20:37 AM
Gralyn --
I notice you are finding more bikes and this Schwinn Traveler is one that you said: "I wouldn't be riding it - and that I couldn't re-sell it."

Be careful -- bikes tend to multiply like rabbits and some day in the future you may realize you have too many. I talk from experience and yes I have a green traveler his and hers but I do not know why!!! I had to rescue them. I buy sometimes to just get the parts -- and then I do not part them out! Be careful. Be selective! But then do whatever you wish!!!

I have an addiction to the Schwinn Breeze. No one wants a breeze! I just like the way they look. I don't want to see another Breeze! I think I have found a way out of this! When the weather improves I will line up the 1000 Breeze bikes, spend a week on determining the date made on each one and then keep one male and one female Breeze -- the earliest made of the lot. The rest of the beautiful Breeze bikes I will part out (astabala stems for cruisers, chain rings for cruisers, etc. And the nicer ones I will fix up and find good homes for them! Then I will not have to protect the 1000 Breezes from rain, wind, and spiders! My life will then be easier and I will ride my oldest 3 speed Breeze in the hilly country in which I live! :)

Good hunting. Shoot only what you can eat! But you should do as you wish!

Good luck!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Finally Spotted a Lightweight posted by Gralyn on 3/15/2003 at 5:29:37 PM
I've stripped the frame of all the components - for now. I thought of maybe re-building it and trying to offer a his/hers package deal and sell them. Or, I may use all the parts on another frame. I suppose after going so long without spotting a single lightweight - I just grabbed it up - because I could always use the parts.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Finally Spotted a Lightweight posted by JONathan on 3/17/2003 at 4:01:50 AM
I've seen zero, zip, nill, nuttin' in 3 speed male frame bikes. Where'd all the millions go? I'm looking for Sears (Stery-Daimler-Puch) 3 speeds at all the thrifts. I want one for personal nostalgia. I had a couple of these fine bikes as a kid. I'll try the garage sales this spring and church rummage sales. I can't believe that I haven't seen any. Something is wierd 'bout that.
Good luck with the AMF's. I just refurbed an AMF "SkyRider" for a friend. It's a real "duece and half". JONathan

MISC:   The passing "click" of SIS posted by: JONathan on 3/14/2003 at 3:16:03 AM
An interesting event has piqued my interest. Seems that oncoming bikes passing me on the bikepath emit a "click" right at the passing point. I've noticed this occurs often enough to be a predictable event. Is it to demonstrate that the SIS is working for my benefit to observe? Of course my mount has the good ol' (quiet) "friction" shifters that may elicit a "knee jerk" type response to make an SIS "click". Maybe, I'm just more aware of it happening, and it has been happening all the time. I know that I usually don't shift as a I pass an oncoming bike. What gives here?
As a side thought, the prospect of a Tour De Anywhere wherein the riders all have to ride vintage road bikes (and fix their own flat tires, chains, etc.) is a very interesting prospect, IMHO, of course. An exception to my "working hypothesis" ; the road-runner types just blow right on by, like a cool breeze.

   retro rides posted by John E on 3/14/2003 at 8:49:24 PM
I have been on a couple of retro rides, in which everyone is encouraged to use an "old" road bike. The most memorable was last May's Hetchins Heaven, in Fallbrook CA, in which my 1959 Capo was only the third-oldest, rather than the oldest, mount.

   RE:retro rides posted by Oscar on 3/15/2003 at 3:17:17 AM
If the rider has to shift to pass you, it means that he had to work to catch you. If he was much of a stronger rider, he would have blown past you in the same gear he was riding for the last five miles.

   RE:retro rides posted by JONathan on 3/15/2003 at 4:14:45 AM
I try to be careful in using the word; "old", when; "vintage" best describes the bike that improves with age...like a fine piano, the tone gets richer and the dynamics, mellow with time. My Maino road bike is a mass produced bike (Alessandra, It.), but it shares some of the same attributes as the Capo, I think. The lug work is very ornate. Columbus tubes give it a "bigger" look than a R.531 frame, but it is very light for a '60's bike. Next would be my Bottecchia (deluxe?) from the same decade, although it has considerable chrome on the forks and stays. The headtube lug is chromed and ornate. The Capo has the most intricate lugs of any I've seen. The seat stays on the Capo seem to barely join the seat lug. I'd probably go with my Bottecchia for the "retro ride", not that the Maino isn't faster (it is; quicker that is), but since my chances of winning any places are miniscule, I may as well be comfortable. The Bot. can handle 28 in. wheels, too. Is that fair? I know the Bot. can topend higher than the Maino on the straights, with those 28's eatin' up the blacktop. I surprise a few "green" (my term for "new") LW's on the main. I read where Otto Capo built 5,000 bikes a year. Is that close? There were very few, here. Surprising that in 1959, the Schwinn "varsity" was about to make the scene. As for Oscar. Absolutely right, if he/she passes in the same dir.. It's the oncoming pass where I can't understand the phenomenon of the "click". Shift smooth and coast long, JONathan

   Capo posted by John E on 3/15/2003 at 8:58:17 PM
The 5K units per year peak production (ca. 1960) figure came from Harald Cap, Otto Cap's son and current owner of the business (www.capo.at), which was founded in 1930. The company was overshadowed by the giant (100K bikes per year, including the earliest Sears Free Spirits) Steyr-Daimler-Puch conglomerate.

I think the gradually increasing popularity of lightweight French, Italian, Austrian, and British road bikes in the late 1950s induced bike racer and Schwinn junior executive Keith Kingbay to propose the Simplex-geared 8-speed Varsity and 10-speed Continental to a very skeptical Frank Schwinn in 1959. In turn, the immediate success of the Varsinentals induced the Europeans to send more road bikes our way, culminating in the bike boom of the early-to-mid 1970s. This is a splendid example of capitalizing on a market paradigm shift (here, bicycles for nonracing adults).

   RE:Capo posted by JONathan on 3/16/2003 at 3:47:27 AM
It was unjust of me to mention the Varsity as the match-up bicycle with the likes of the Capo. I forgot that the Paramount as the Schwinn counterpart to the European LW road bikes.
The Varsity was a bike for the "non-racing" adults. I remember feeling snubbed that my older brother got a Schwinn "racer", while when it was my turn to get a real bike, my father gets me a Sears "JC Higgins" 3 speed (money was tight). It was made in Austria, as I recall. The bike was much lighter and I could actually ride to over the coast range to the ocean and back in a day; something nobody had done on our block of "racers". I crashed the Higgins (felt sick about it) and it sat for a month. Finally, my father decided that it was cheaper to get another bike than it was to repair the Higgins. I could have gotten a Schwinn, but I wanted the Higgins. I think he was bit surprised. I got another Higgins...with spares parts from the crashed one, I managed to keep it alive through high school. For college, I got another Sears bike. A ten speed with Campagnola front and rear derailers. It was a great bike, but I crashed it coming down a hill to make a class and chainwd it by the front wheel. When I came to ride back up the hill, the bike was gone, except for the qr front wheel which was bent from the crash. I always wondered who made that bike for Sears ca. 1966. Any ideas who might have? JONathan

   Sears posted by John E on 3/16/2003 at 8:57:37 PM
Although Sears dealt with various manufacturers, I believe most of the 1960s Sears 3-speeds and 10-speeds were made by Steyr-Daimler-Puch, of Graz, Austria. Unfortunately, later Free Spirits, including the only really bad* bicycle I have ever owned, were Huffy or Murray boat anchors.

* a pre-beaten $10 yard sale special "beater"; weight > 18kg; stamped steel non-rebuildable pedals; plastic Elgin derailleurs with horrid stem shifters; 26" smooth steel rims; "nonstop" steel sidepull brakes; ugh!

   RE:Sears posted by JONathan on 3/17/2003 at 3:39:54 AM
Thanks, John E. I remember that the Campy wasn't; "Valentino". It may have been "Nuova Sport". It was in the Sears catalog. I remember picking it out; gold color; leather seat; alloy wheels; even had a toolkit in a leather pouch for under the seat. What was Sears thinkin'? Did Steyr-Daimler Puch get out of the bike business? If a guy can get almost two (that's 2) bikes for the price of one Schwinn...the price to value ratio was unbeatable.
Both of the JC Higgins (Steyr-Daimler Puchs) had fenders and lights, and steel wire cargo cages on the rear. My father ended up riding one of the Steyr-Daimler Puchs for years, everyday.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sugino Crank Date Codes posted by: Skip Echert on 3/14/2003 at 2:56:25 AM
Hello Fellow Cyclers -

Larry Osborn and I are trying to understand the date codes on Sugino Cranks. Our current information is at .
We need some data to sort out the year codes. Do you have a bike for which you know the model year, and that has a Sugino Crank? If so, please e-mail me the information that is stamped or cast into the backside of both crank arms, the model of the crank, and the year and model of the bike.

Many thanks,

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sugino Crank Date Codes posted by Gralyn on 3/14/2003 at 3:02:28 PM
I have observed - when breaking down bikes - and on bikes I know have never really been taken apart - and are pretty-well intact, original......I have noticed that a lot of the components will pre-date the bike's date - lots of times - by a year or two....sometimes more. Which makes sense.....you have to have all the components made up ahead of time - before you start assembly. It wasn't like today....where it's "just-in-time" and everyone keeps inventory levels very low.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sugino Crank Date Codes posted by Skip Echert on 3/15/2003 at 3:04:05 PM
Hello Gralyn -
Good Observation. Component dates are an indicator, but no guarantee, of the date of a bike. A Specialized Expedition we have looked at appears to have components made two years earlier than the model year.
However, from serial numbers, we can date many 1976 - 86 Treks to the month the serial number was applied to the bare frame. This date is typically within a few months of the date of manufacture of the components that eventually are placed on the bike.

AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Paramount posted by: Bill on 3/13/2003 at 10:43:23 PM
I have and old track bike. It looks like the centerfold of the Pridmore Schwinn book. It does have a difference. The bb is split. Is it a paramount? photos at http://home.earthlink.net/'wm.patterson/_wsn/page2.html


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Paramount posted by Warren on 3/14/2003 at 2:10:37 AM
A really nice bike. One thing...are those really Chater Lea Cranks with a Raleigh chainring or are they just Raleigh. They look like the standard fluted cranks you find on a Clubman.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Schwinn Paramount posted by Bill on 3/14/2003 at 5:36:37 AM
The cranks say Chaterlea on them. There is a birds head on the chainrings.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Schwinn Paramount posted by Martin on 3/14/2003 at 6:20:38 PM
The chainring is from a Raleigh club bike. The frame looks similar to a BSA. For example see:

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Roger? posted by: Robby on 3/13/2003 at 5:21:53 PM
does anyone know of a Roger, the one I have come across has nice front chrome lugs, knockoff Campy components, all in all a nice bike, but anyway just curious to see if anyone had heard of this bike brand or builder...

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Roger? posted by Skip Echert on 3/14/2003 at 1:16:29 AM
Hello Robby -

This is from Lou Deeter's Used Bike Guide:

"ROGER: France. Some examples have sculpted lugs. Believed to have been made in the 50s and 60s. Olympic rings displayed with head tube decal."

Lou's guide costs only $3. See the bottom of

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Gitane Supercorsa posted by: Randy on 3/13/2003 at 9:00:32 AM
Hi I recently aquired a Gitane supercorsa frame from around 1982-83 and it is made of vitus 980 tubing my question here is that the fork crown seems to be larger than the usual 26.4 size that most headsets are, does anyone know what the deal was with this frame.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Gitane Supercorsa posted by Mike Slater on 3/14/2003 at 2:12:20 PM
It is most likely 26.5 mm diam. This is a obselete French size. There is a Sugino headset on e-bay that is this size - 1 day left for $25 opening bid.

With a little elbow grease and some 320 silicone carbide paper, you can get a standard 26.4mm diam race to fit.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic cpx 22 rims posted by: Junglejim747 on 3/13/2003 at 2:04:30 AM
Concerning my Gitane TDF project, I'd just like to let Keith and Chuck know, I purchased some Mothers Aluminum Polish and tested a small place on my Campy Tippo Hubs. Without hardly wiping the q-Tip across a small place on the aluminum, it turned black. So I guess they are not anodized. Anyway, I polished them and they look great. Now I'm looking for a set of Mavic CPX 22 rims (700C - 36 Hole. I can't find a retailer who sells them. Someone said that it is only an OEM product. Does any one have any info?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic cpx 22 rims posted by Junglejim747 on 3/13/2003 at 2:44:59 AM
Does anyone say "No, No, No!! about Phil Wood Grease for wheel bearings? When the hubs and the grease were first marketed in 1971 (?) They were quite a niche product. I did not know any bike-o-files that even used them. Is there any scoop after 30 years?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic cpx 22 rims posted by JONathan on 3/13/2003 at 5:38:45 AM
You could try the phone number for Mavic dealer: 888 GO-MAVIC. Those are nice rims with the wear indicator and 500 gms. wt. I have a set of tubless aluminum alloy "montiery" rims; (from '70's) on Exceltoo "super competition" hf hubs. As for Phil Woods grease, I use it all the time on my MTB's for the waterproof characteristic and the viscosity holds up better than any other grease. I tried some aircraft grease that was close to the specs., but it was a little heavy for the wheel hubs. Finish Line works OK, but the PW is better, IMHO, of course.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic cpx 22 rims posted by Keith on 3/13/2003 at 6:49:30 PM
I acquired my CPX 22 rims from Airborne at one of its garage sales in Dayton OH. I'm certain these used to be available, but I looked at most of the online dealers I've used, and the CPX 22 isn't showing up. I believe the Velocity Aerohead is similar to the CPX 22. http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&Category=1415 It all depends on what kind of a wheel you want. I'm glad the polish worked. I've been too busy just cleaning slime and crud off my bikes' drivetrains to worry about polish right now.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic cpx 22 rims posted by Ray on 3/13/2003 at 11:21:14 PM
Have you tried www.ital-tecno.com?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic cpx 22 rims posted by Keith on 3/14/2003 at 6:26:46 PM
Ray, I didn't see them there either. Another thought is the Open Pro, which is kind of the contemporary standard for a 700c clincher rim. My experience with them has been very positive. I once heard an anecdotal story about them failing, but I've never known anyone who actually reported that, and there are probably more Open Pro rims in use by serious road cyclicsts today than any other model of rim.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mavic cpx 22 rims posted by Junglejim747 on 3/15/2003 at 1:30:15 AM
I am primarily a "commuter" rider. I like the CPX 22 because it is built tough like the MA-3 but is cool looking with it's aero dynamic shape. I've never worn out a wheel. I've ridden more miles than most but due to several reasons (car collisions, stolen, and I worked in a bicycle shop), never had one fail due to wear. I want a rim that is lightweight, strong, and looks good. I have two boys whose ages are 10 and 9, they want me trekking off road alot of times. Commuting is a tough job for a bike.... but maybe no worse than club riding. Anyway, thank you everyone for the advice!!

AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by: Tim Welsh on 3/11/2003 at 8:50:26 PM
After months of eyeballing every bike I see to find a 'gem', and just about giving up, I really hit the jackpot recently. A fellow was on the sidewalk with a road bike, and I glanced to see 'Professional' on the top tube. I boldly asked him if he wanted to sell, without even looking close at the dirty bike. He didn't hesitate in selling it to me for about US$50, saying he has two bikes (I saw the other, a Peugot UO8). He had bought the Pro in the early 80's for about $300.

I brought the bike home to find that it was barely used, and had been disassembled when new and the frame wrapped in bar tape EVERYWHERE there is a clamp. The dirt dripped away when I applied some green cleaner with a spray bottle, I didn't even have to wipe with a rag. The 531 decals are, of course, ratty around the edges, but other than a few very minor scrapes, the bike is pristine. All Campy NR, except the rear wheel, which is a Shimano 600 (too bad). Original bar tape, cables, brake pads (not even worn). The Brooks saddle has the big brass rivets. Under the bb is a 'CC' cut-out. I haven't figured out the year yet, but am so excited to have such a pristine Professional. I already have a beautiful but not original 531db Competition (72?), a so-so Super Course from the late 60's, and a mint 40's Clubman, so my Raleigh collection is becoming well-rounded.

Anyone have a Campy wheel?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Junglejim747 on 3/13/2003 at 3:49:39 AM
Not to take this discussion group out of the Vintage Lightweights subject, but, I mentor a street person in Orlando, FL and he really does not have the same grasp on life as the average WASP. Most of these persons do not have all the marbles that are dealt to the general populus. It is not to mean that they are inferior, it is just Christian to: "Don't take advantage of impaired people.", "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." I think it is proper that Rob doesn't take advantage of those he feels aren't properly equipped to do battle.
and that's my opinion but what do I know....

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Richard "the bum" on 3/13/2003 at 5:42:09 AM
The average wasp? Does skin color and religous preferance matter to you? P U.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Bill on 3/13/2003 at 10:43:03 PM
A have some old campy wheels.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Richard on 3/11/2003 at 11:08:53 PM
Nice. It just goes to show, it never hurts to ask.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Rob on 3/12/2003 at 12:36:11 AM
Gee...and I think I live in the same city as you...where was this man??? Last summer I saw rather beaten-down 30ish guy, obvioulsy a 'street person', slowly pushing a brown lightweight...I couldn't tell the make...too many plastic bags hanging off various parts of the bike, but my eye did catch the 531 sticker on the seat tube...I didn't have the nerve to approach him about the bike...and I guess I would have felt guilty anyway, if I didn't pay him its full market value whatever it was. Now if it had been someone with a better grip on life, well...'all's fair...'

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Tim Welsh on 3/12/2003 at 1:34:45 AM
Now, I have a personal policy that if someone is using a bike as their lifeblood, I don't ask them to sell, no matter how collectible (have passed over some nice bikes). The fellow I got the bike from was not a 'street person', had a nice house, and was eager to sell the bike to me. Of course I didn't discuss fair market value with him, but he was plenty aware that it is a good bike, he bought it for a fair price all those years ago.

P.S. - The bike is blue, not brown.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Rob on 3/12/2003 at 2:23:03 AM
Sorry...I didn't mean to imply anything, just using your interesting story to launch an anecdote of my own...and as far as I know the 'Pros' are all 'blue mink', at least for most of the 1970's...except the team color ones.

I agree entirely with your sentiments...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Dave on 3/12/2003 at 3:29:27 PM
A friends wife has a Raleigh Pro that was given her.Its in very good condition, but the prior owner had put Shimano Index shifters/deraillers and upright handlebars on it.A real shame.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Richard "The Bum" on 3/12/2003 at 5:15:02 PM
What makes you think that a street person doesnt have a grip on life? Life is more than a wad of cash in your pocket! Do without for a while and you will figure it out real quick.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Finally found a 'Pro' posted by Keith on 3/12/2003 at 5:20:41 PM
Great deal! The finishing on Pros I've seen has been a cut above what I've seen on Raleigh's other models, including the next step down International.

AGE / VALUE:   Fancy 600 posted by: Darryl on 3/11/2003 at 9:03:25 PM
I recently bought a Shimano 600 rear derailleur on ebay(item#2712998540). I thought it looked pretty unique with the black background and scroll work. Are these pretty common? Any collecting value? I would guess they date to early '80s. This one is NOS. Thanks, Darryl

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Fancy 600 posted by Tim Welsh on 3/11/2003 at 9:52:52 PM
Hi Darryl:

In Vancouver I see a fair number of old fancy 600 derailleurs, although some seem to be originally nicer than others. The 600 derailleurs were put on a lot of mid-level bikes, such as on a Mexican-built, straight-guage Bennotto I have (mixed grouppo).

I don't know about value, but don't think 600's are in the league of Campy derailleurs. I even had the chance to buy a lovely old Shimano Dura-Ace derailleur from a serious collector recently for only $10.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Fancy 600 posted by dafydd on 3/11/2003 at 11:49:07 PM
They're sometimes referred to "Arabesque." I've been looking at them recently, probably even the one you bought. I don't think they have tremendous value, but probably something worth picking up for cheap. If nothing else they're very pretty.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Fancy 600 posted by Mike Patterson on 3/16/2003 at 3:45:50 AM
I removed a set (shifters, front derailer and rear derailer), from a Basso with Cinelli BB amd Campanog;a rear lugs. Unfortunately the frame had had a small accident involving a Backhoe at my favourite bike place (landfill) so I was about to toss the frame. It now is in attic of shed waiting to come back as ersatz track bike.
I also found 3 or 4 NOS MIB sets of the Arabesque shifters at a bike shop I do some work for , along with some suntour top-mount shifters. Anyone need a set?

MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by: Joe on 3/11/2003 at 10:04:54 AM
Hi, I was wandering if anyone here knows the difference between Reynolds 531, Tange Industries - Champion #1 or #2 chromoly tubing?
I have a Lotus frame which I picked up and it is labeled Tange Ind. "Champion" #1 Chromoly Tubing, I know Reynolds 531 is one of the lightest but I have no idea which of the others are comparable in weight.
I also have a Panasonic DX 4000 which says Champion #2 Cro-Moly Tubing on the frame. This frame never seemed to be all that light compared to regular steel frames of the same size (at least not like the 531 tubing frames).
The Lotus is the lightest of the two by a few pounds at least, both are large frames.
I am also looking for a fork for the Lotus frame, the headtube is 9 1/8" tall (231 mm). I am not sure of the model, I also need to determine whether this was built for 27" or 700c wheels, I found it as new old stock, unbadged and undecaled. If this turns out to be a decent frame I intend to build it as an everyday rider with some Shimano 600 components that I have been saving.
The Lotus frame looks extremely similar to the DX 4000 frame, the lugs are the same the way the tube intersect at the rear as well as the cable stops and guides on the top of the frame. I don't think I could tell them apart if it wasn't for the Lotus logo on the upper end of each rear down tube and the paint color.
I would also be interested in finding at least the headbadge for the Lotus as well but I don't even know where to begin to look for one.
Any info anyone has would be greatly appreciated,

   RE:RE:MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by Joe on 3/13/2003 at 6:12:51 AM
Rob, thanks for the link and info.
I weighed the Lotus frame on a postal scale just to see how heavy it actually is, it weighs 4 lbs. 4 oz. bare.
I don't have another bare chromoly frame to compare to, but this is a 25" frame, is this light or just average for this size bike?

   RE:MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by Joe on 3/13/2003 at 6:32:17 AM
Thanks for all of the replies,
Another idea has come to mind after seeing Robs chart below, is it posible for only the lugs to be Tange #1 and the rest of the frame some other tubing? It just seems so light, I stripped and weighed a Panasonic DX 4000 I have in the same size frame and it weighs 6 lbs 9 ozs. and is labeled Tange # 2 tubing. It's a very similar frame and almost identical in design as the Lotus but given the chart above it shouldn't weigh nearly double?
I was just surprised at the actual weights, does anyone have a weight on a comparable 531 frame? Not that it matters much, but I am curios as to what kind of quality this Lotus frame is. I have a chance to pick up a 531 frame but it's not anywhere near the condition this Lotus is in (the Lotus is new old stock).
Thanks again,

   RE:MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by Rob on 3/13/2003 at 6:24:15 PM
Joe, I did a bit of a web search and found this site....hopefully its totally independent from the last one:


I notice there are differences between the two lists...I would guess, as is usually the case, there won't be a definitive source and one will have to gather information from various sources and draw one's own conclusions...

   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by John E on 3/11/2003 at 4:57:08 PM
Sheldon Brown has a good analysis of frame materials. Most common steel alloys, including MnMo (e.g. 531) and CrMo, are comparable in density to the ordinary carbon steel of, say, a Schwinn Varsity. Frame weight is determined primarily by tubing thickness, and ride quality is determined primarily by frame and fork geometry. I do not buy into the commonly voiced myth that CrMo frames are significantly stiffer than Reynolds 531 frames (I own two of each).

   RE:MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by Warren on 3/11/2003 at 8:24:28 PM
Both Tange tubesets are good and the #1 is top-notch. I think the Japanese alloys are very comparable in strength vs weight but I don't have that data to back it up.

Don't forget that a frames weight often has much to do with how is is built...how the lugs are files, the tubes are mitred, the choice of lugs etc. Although I am not a framebuilder, a friend of mine is and he insists that building a very light frame is possible using many of the available double-butted tubesets...just don't ask me for details.

   RE:MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by Rob on 3/11/2003 at 8:27:24 PM
Here's some information I copied from a news group a few months ago:


REYNOLDS 501 2025
REYNOLDS 531C 1800
REYNOLDS 531P 1700
REYNOLDS 653 1700
REYNOLDS 753 1650
TANGE 2 2290
TANGE 1 2220
ISHIWATA 022 2200
ORIA ML 25 2100
VITUS 181 1790
VITUS 888 2030
VITUS 980 1507
VITUS 983 1624
VITUS Prestige
TRUE TEMPER, by order of weight, higher to lower: RCR, RC, RCX


Here's the link, (I don't know if this will work if you aren't a member):


You can see that the Champion 1 and 2 was not the lightest that Tange made and is not as light as 531. But of course lightness is only one aspect of quality tubing...

   RE:RE:MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by Warren on 3/12/2003 at 12:15:36 AM
Thanks for that...very cool.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Champion #1 & #2 vs. Reynolds 531 Chromoly Tubing? posted by Joe on 3/14/2003 at 10:19:15 AM
Rob, This chart makes the most sense, but if I go by this it looks like the lighter frames are really only suited for a smaller or lighter rider, I'm 6'3" tall and 240 lbs.
I guess if I was to go by the chart and it's recomendation I need to weigh in the 175lb range. I did notice one thing in the Lotus frame design, when I compare it to an older steel frame from the early 80's, I can see how much shorter the rear stays aand the entire frame is, this also saves alot of weight in this frame. I guess by some of the specs I have seen this should be a pretty nice frame for me to build into a daily rider, it's not to heavy and hopefully still strong enough to hold up with a larger rider. My next decisions are as to which size rim and tire to use, I figure on a 27" x 1 1/8" on either a Weinmann or Araya alloy rim. I was considering a Rigida 1320 set or even a set of Matrix Adonics that I have here, but with the rough roads around here, I feel safer on a little wider tire. The other choice I need to make is derailleurs, I have a mismatch of components laying around, I have a set of Dura Ace derailleurs that are from about the mid 90's both front and rear are NOS. the rear is an 8 speed index unit but I know I can run it as friction with the correct shifter. The Lotus has 126mm frame spacing and I have a set of small flange Shimano 600 hubs in 126 mm. (I don't need more than 12 or 14 speeds anyhow). My question is 1) what type of shifter will fit on the braze-ons that will work as either a 6 or 7 speed? and 2) will the Uniglide chain work with the Dura-Ace 7700 series derailleur? or do I need to go to a Hyperglide chain? In which case does this mean I will have trouble using the early Shimano 600 crankset I was planning on using? I noticed that the newer sprockets have cuts or dogs attached to the inside that I believe are there to help the sprocket release the chain, since the new chains are smother on the outsides, I guess they are harder to get to shift by simple derailleur pressure? If any one know about or has done such a conversion please let me know.

MISC:   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by: JONathan on 3/11/2003 at 3:40:39 AM
Experts abound here. Got a couple tech Q's. First, a 1968 Varsity needs a set of brakes. The guy gave me the bike after he removed the brakes. I was toying with placing center-pull Weinmanns and then I wondered if the side-pulls would be better. What brakes were there on a 1968 Varsity...assuming I want to keep it all original equipment? I know it's not a super find, but the bike is pretty slick. All the paint and decals are in good condition.
The 1977 Varsity is one that I got for $7 US about 10 years back. I've got it original except for a Weinmann "vancouer 999" fr. brake and a Rigida rear wheel with a freewheel that has a 32 tooth granny. The stock derailer can't get on the 32 t. cog. Is that beyond the capability of this derailer or is it an adjustment problem? I've spent lots of pit time fiddling with it to no avail, except I can physically pull the chain onto the cog. Henceforth creating a clicking noise as I pedal along...it's the pantograph type with the steel rod that "protects" the derailer. It has to be the most indestructible der. that was ever made. Weighs more that some wheels. Anyone know what the upper limit is for large cog? These Varsities are the ultimate beaters. Thanks for anything you got. JONathan

   RE:MISC:   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by Bryant on 3/11/2003 at 11:59:21 AM
Hey Jonathon,

The 1968 Varsity has side pull brakes on it. Not sure what make, but pretty sure they would be "Schwinn Approved". A good web site for earlier Schwinn lightweights is the Schwinn lightweight data book at http://www.geocities.com/sldatabook/cover.html. As for the rear cluster, I believe the Varsity standard was a 14-28 freewheel. Don't know if the rear der's can handle anything biger.

   RE:RE:MISC:   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by Tom Findley on 3/11/2003 at 4:15:03 PM
You may need a long cage rear derailleur for the 32 teeth sprocket. The replacement dr is a Shimano SIS on my '71 Sports Tourer with 32 teeth 1st gear. After getting into 2rd gear, I shift the front derailleur to the big front ring.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by tf on 3/11/2003 at 4:16:44 PM
Shift to big ring in 3RD gear.

   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by John E on 3/11/2003 at 5:08:03 PM
The Varsity always had Weinmann sidepulls, often rebadged as "Schwinn Approved." They are lousy brakes only because of the long reach, the steel rims, and the brake pad material. To make my Varsity into a reasonably safe commuter, I installed aluminum rims and KoolStop pads. Weinmann centerpulls, standard on all but the first-year Continentals, perform slightly better and are much easier to keep centered and adjusted.

Unless you really need that 32T grannie, consider installing a 14-28T or possibly even a 14-30T freewheel, preferably a narrow-spaced 6-speed, if you can still find one. After I replaced the TwinStiks with SunTour downtube levers (with a fat shim under the clamp), my original Huret Allvit was very happy with a standard-spaced 14-16-18-21-24-28 freewheel and the original 52-39 chainrings.

Although the Varsity is indeed a great beater, I prefer the Peugeot UO-8, which is almost 5 kilos lighter. Of course, my Varsity probably would not have ruptured a chainstay after 4 years of commuting up a 12-percent grade.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by JONathan on 3/11/2003 at 5:15:51 PM
Thanks for all the information on these two Vsrsities. I like the funky rear derailers, so I'll switch to the 28 teeth low gear freewheel.
As long as I keep max. pressure in the tires the granny gear isn't critical...I won't be tackling any steep hills with eithger bike. These heavy machines are OK.
I turned 20 miles on the bike path. Headwinds weren't a problem. Thanks, JONathan.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by JONathan on 3/11/2003 at 5:37:14 PM
Thanks for the brake comparisons, John E. The UO-8 is in a different league IMHO. The Varsity has a heavy, damped steerage compared to my UO-8. I won't commute on the Varsity unless nothing else is running.
For what must seem like esoteric reasons, I have this compulsion to restore the 1968 Varsity to original state. The '77 "beater" is going on the picnic table for changeover to the aluminum wheels. With close to 300 pounds GVW grinding to a halt, the kool-stops on Al is the only way to go.
The UO-8 was my first French bike restoration. I have the cyclone rear der. replacing the blown Sachs-Huret that was on it. It can't get the top-end that some of the regulars ride, but in tight, the UO-8 is better balanced than a lot of the $1000+ bikes. IMHO, of course. Thanks, again, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   1968 and 1977 Scwinn Varsities posted by Dave on 3/11/2003 at 7:15:41 PM
I have a '64 Varsity(W/Downtube Shifters & Cromoly Fork) for commuting, (not having the Original flatblade fork makes a big difference) and a '73 U-08.Both bike were fitted w/Alloy Rims, and I have to agree W/Jonathan, the U-08 does have a nice ride.I use it for distance rides,those Mafac Racers are great stoppers.

   UO-8 posted by John E on 3/12/2003 at 1:48:49 AM
After I broke the (d.b. Ishiwata CrMo) frame on my 1971 Nishiki Competition, I transferred most of the components to a 1973 Peugeot UO-8 a friend had given to me. Despite its plain carbon steel tubing, the Peugeot frame rode ald climbed better than the Nishiki and was very close in weight. The only UO-8 aspect I dislike is its very slow turning response, which arises in part from the unusually long fork rake. My current UO-8, with an aftermarket Japanese fork, handles a bit better, although some people might object to its slight toe-to-wheel overlap.

   RE:UO-8 posted by JONathan on 3/12/2003 at 4:51:32 AM
The UO-8 is my favorite sport bike. That SunTour Cyclone is a super derailer. You are right about the Schwinn "approved" Weinmanns being lousy. I looked at my '77 Suburban that has those brakes and I noticed that the front brake left caliper was bent near the cable attachment anchor. When I applied the brakes and pushed the bike forward, they flexed to a disturbing degree. I have a few Weinmann sidepulls in a box that look exactly like the Schwinn approved brakes. What are these brakes good for? I guess they are better than no brakes.
Back to the UO-8. Mine has the forged dropout with integral der. hanger, no adapter "claw" nonsense. Throughout the history of bicycle development, I think few designs can match the UO-8 for all around riding. I find mine to be incredibly versatile. It takes rough roads, can rip on the blacktop, slaloms well in traffic, and it is exceptionally efficient on long distance riding (touring). If I was to vote on "best all around bike"...the UO-8 is it. The UO-18's are pretty cool rides, too. I have one of those, but it is less responsive than the UO-8. Why have a mixte frame? Are there any advantages?
Thanks for all the advice and opinions. JONathan