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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

MISC:   looking for some info???? posted by: warren on 5/13/2003 at 9:51:53 PM
I have a road frame that I know was mad in Osaka Japan. It is a Zunow with a wishbone rear end. That is all i know about it. If someone knows anything about this bike please e-male me. Thank you for your time.

   RE:MISC:   looking for some info???? posted by Warren Young on 5/14/2003 at 3:14:28 AM
They are supposed to be very sweet frames and the wishbone stays are part of the attraction. I think they were first made in the early 70's and were spec with 1st generation 600 components.

A keeper.

   RE:RE:MISC:   looking for some info???? posted by Dave on 5/14/2003 at 5:28:46 PM
Check out www.classicrendezvous.com under the Japan bike section, they are cool looking bikes with nice lugwork. I bid on a frameset once on Ebay but the price zoomed way up.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   looking for some info???? posted by Tim Welsh on 5/14/2003 at 9:26:52 PM
I have a Zunow that I bought 2 years ago as a fresh frame and built up with recent parts (600 STI). The workmanship on the frame is stunning, although the multi-colour paint scheme is kind of overwhelming.

Mine has the 'aero' fittings on the frame, so it looks like a carbon fibre monocoque but is actually steel. I was once told that my frame is their top model. In Vancouver, there was one shop that sold Zunow's in the early 80's, and I occaisionally see one around town.

I'm curious, how much did the auctioned Zunow go for? To my eyes, they are at least as nice craftsmanship as most highly sought after European frames.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   looking for some info???? posted by Dave on 5/15/2003 at 2:37:23 PM
Somewhere between $250 and $350 I seem to recall.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank cotter removal posted by: Ken on 5/13/2003 at 12:36:57 AM
I had the same problem as everyone else removing the cotters on my Steyr. I tried the c-clamp and socket method and only ended up bending the c-clamp.
What worked was a flat "machinists vise" and a 3/8 drive socket. Place the fixed side of the vise against the threaded end of the cotter, put the socket over the flat end wedged against the movable side of the vise. I needed a piece of pipe to tighten the vise down the last little bit, but both cotters popped out and no damage to anything else. The same vise is sold as a "drill press vise" at Home Depot for fifteen bucks, and that beats scavanging for the Park press.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank cotter removal posted by Rob on 5/13/2003 at 12:56:18 AM
That sounds pretty good...I'm going to have to deal with several old Peugeot BB's soon and I like the idea of using a smaller vise...any sense that the vice was being strained or anything? How about protecting the threads on the end of the cotter...original Peugeot cotters have a cap nut...I wonder what the cotter TPI is or thread pitch? I guess that'll be in one of Sheldon Brown's sites...

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank cotter removal posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 3:30:15 AM
The drill-press vise is a perfect selection for the job. I use and ole box-section machinist vise, but the drill-press vise is better I would say. My drill-press vise is a Palmgren high-precision vise that I'd hate have get away from my bungling, WD-40 covered fingers and dive on the driveway! I'd be out a few pizzas. $15 is good if it'll work only 10 times, it's paid for itself. If you have a box of or organizer with used fasteners from all the bikes you ever worked on...you are bound to have a match for the crown nut. I use two nuts to prevent bending the threaded end. Just amke the outside nut flush.
NOTE: I'd be worried about using a pipe cheater on a "new" $15 vise. Some C-Clamps I have cost over $20. Good luck..WEAR FACE GUARD.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank cotter removal posted by Tom on 5/13/2003 at 4:20:32 AM
Rob, there are two styles of Peugeot cotters. Both use 7mm x 1mm threads and are 9mm in diameter, The old style has a taper along the entire length of the body and is 37.5 mm long. The new style has a partial taper and is 42 mm long.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank cotter removal posted by Chris on 5/13/2003 at 7:22:31 PM
French parts, Oh yes!
The fact that there are various size cotters out there has led me to just grabbing up the whole drawers full of cotter pins and dumping them on the desk and buying every stinking one of them leaving empty drawers behind.
My answer to the obscure, hard to find parts problem is buy everything you can lay paws onto. I have headed off so many headaches this way.
I can say to myself: "Chill Dude, you have it somewhere."

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank cotter removal posted by Tom on 5/13/2003 at 8:23:24 PM
I hear you, Chris. As a last resort, we could just drill out all our cottered crankarms to acept the 9.5 mm diameter, ISO cotter pin. There appears to be an abundance of those.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank cotter removal posted by Chris on 5/14/2003 at 6:16:19 PM
The 9.5 is hard to find! I've gone nuts over those too. They may be plentiful in your area and I'd lay in a stash of them if that's true for you.

AGE / VALUE:   unknown bike posted by: michael kerk on 5/12/2003 at 4:20:40 PM
i cant find where or when this bike was made or its vale. the bike looks very much like a 50's raligh, the plaque says
"NO.1" F.K.I. CO. LTD. the serial # is rf50278. the bike has rod brakes that are all brass, the fenders and enclosed chain guard are copper, the leather seat is hung by circular
springs, the tires are 26x1 3/8 and made by iwao rubber co.
any info would be appreciated

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   unknown bike posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 9:25:42 PM
Sounds like a cool bike. Beats me. Try the "roadster page" at this site. Those guys are up on the Dl-1 types. Good luck....JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   unknown bike posted by Chris on 5/14/2003 at 6:18:32 PM
Never seen rod linkage as you describe. Copper enclosed chain guard sounds really cool. Never seen that before either.

MISC:   Great City for Bikes posted by: Bryant on 5/12/2003 at 10:53:15 AM
I was in Philly on Saturday to watch my daughter row in the Dad Vail regatta. I always enjoy my time in Philly just looking at the bikes. They are everywhere. It seems like everyone rides a bike there. The great thing is there are bike lanes in just about all the major roads. And since Philly is relatively flat (unless you go the boathouse row on the river) it is a great place to ride.
I gave my daughter a Fuji Special Tourer last year to ride to practices. Probably the best gift I ever gave her. She rides it constantly and calls me to ask how to repair/maintain things. Since then I've given a Panasonic mixte to one team mate and sold my Moto Nomade (for $25) to another. I'm fixing up a Schwinn Letour Mixte now and will probably sell that one (again $25, it all goes to my daughter anyway) to the Coxswain who is looking for wheels. Anyway, If you love riding bikes, you will love Philly. I am envious of all you who live there. Great city!!

   RE:MISC:   Great City for Bikes posted by JONathan on 5/12/2003 at 4:26:32 PM
Bryant, $25 is about half the cost of minimum restoration. I go $25+ for tires. Then you have brake pads; bearings; cables; and tire tubes ($10/pr.). Now, if you add handlebar tape, seat, and a couple reflectors...that's a steal at $25. Those vintage bikes are worth it. I think they will come back, esp. with the younger set picking up the slack. You're a generous guy!!...JONathan

   RE:RE:MISC:   Great City for Bikes posted by Bryant on 5/12/2003 at 4:52:43 PM
I give them a break because they are on my daughters crew team, and they need the transportation. I've got two in college and they never have money. $25 doesn't even buy a book. So yeah, I don't cover cost on those but hey it's a hobby and I make someone happy.

   RE:MISC:   Great City for Bikes posted by Ward Davis on 5/12/2003 at 11:39:24 PM
You are correct Sir! Philly is a bike friendly town! Check out Trophy Bike Shop and Via Bike Shop next time your in town,(no relation here). They are very friendly and Mike Mcgettigan at Trophy and Curtis Anthony at Via really are unique individuals.

   RE:MISC:   Great City for Bikes posted by P Lavery on 5/13/2003 at 12:23:02 AM
You should try the Freedom Valley Bike Ride sponsored
by the Bicycle Coalition of Greater Philadelphia
Their web site is www.BicycleCoalition.org
I rode it last year and it's an excellent tour of the
city and surrounding area. This year's ride is coming up
on June 15th.

AGE / VALUE:   Clamp Style Down Tube Shifters posted by: Tom on 5/10/2003 at 7:52:14 PM
A couple of posts back, someone was looking for friction, clamp style, down tube shift levers. I thought my LBS had some and checked it out this morning.

My memory wasn't playing tricks this time, there are 10 sets of Shimano SL-Z408-BA from 1984. They are dual aluminum friction levers, with a chromed steel down tube clamp and mounting hardware. Cables and end ferrules are includued. Cost is $7.50 US per set, plus shipping.

If you are interested in a set or want photos, please e-mail me directly. My LBS is not interested in the hassles of mail order, so I'm willing to act as the middle-man (but without the middle-man mark-up).

AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by: JONathan on 5/10/2003 at 5:33:58 AM
The recent post and thread on cottered crank removal and the inherent pains has me wondering. Is it feasible to drill a hole in the BB and attach a grease nipple (threaded). Unless the bearings are shot or crank spindle is bent, usually the BB just needs lub. Just hook up the grease pump and punch a couple ounces of grease into the BB. How bout that?
Also, how do you get the crank arms set at 180 deg. exactly? Or is that not possible except through sheer luck?...JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Edward in Vancouver on 5/10/2003 at 7:12:43 AM
This would be a thread for the English Roadster group! I think that just injecting grease in the BB would result with a lot of grease (and weight) in the BB shell, with the old grease and crud contaminating the new. Of course I'm a chef, not a bike mechanic. Also, one way to get the crank arms FAIRLY 180'ish is to have the cottered bolts facing in oposite directions. That is, if you were seated on the bike and looked down, the bolt head on the chainside crank would face to the front wheel, and the left crank bolt head would face to the back wheel. This little trick took me quite a while to figure out, was wondering while it felt funny when I was spinning "weird circles" until a someone told me.
Ah, cottered cranks, what a joy. Never forgot the time I spent over 2 hours trying to extract the bolts from a rusty Raleigh RSW 16" and finally had to restort to a hacksaw and new cranks. Makes you wonder, intricate internal hubs were around since the early 1900's but cotterless cranks didn't come on to the scene untill the late 70's.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/10/2003 at 8:01:28 AM
Thanks for the tip. I just finished witha Peugeot UE-8. Got them to within 1 deg.from 180. Can't really tell unless you measure against a straight edge, but it bugs me. I guess if I file the bevel down a tad, the arm will settle toward the unthreaded end of the pin. If I go too far, then I'll have to use another pin and go through all this again.
The problem is the pin is the right diameter, but the bevel is too steep. Maybe that's by design. Beats me. A guy can't expect much from pin manufacturers these days. The more I delve into metal work, the more it's just like woodworking; sand, snad, sand...fit, fit, fit. Nothing new.JONathan
Of course the intelligent thing to do is fitting a cotterless set and throw all the cottered stuff in the soup pot.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Joe on 5/10/2003 at 8:51:05 AM
JONathan, As far as good crank pins, I found a guy in NJ that has original Peugeot crank pins, the kind with the cap nut like those that came on the UO-8 when new. They fit perfect with the original cranks. His email is njbicycle@netzero.com He also had many of the other items I needed for mine. I found him through eBay.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Warren on 5/10/2003 at 12:25:09 PM
I don't mean to rain on the parade but I think the grease nipple or "oiler" is a little overrated. This is why we saw it dissappear from use. I tried packing in some grease this way....later I opened the bb up and there lay a big glob of grease in the middle of the axle no where near the bearings. Of course you could fill it to capacity until it squeezes out and on your shoes. Personally, I don't mind opening the bottom end up every five years or so, repacking with new bearings and clean grease.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/10/2003 at 7:40:49 PM
Thanks Joe. I think I have the guy's address from a previous posting. Nice to know they're available. I just filed the flat of the pin to a slightly (very) more acute angle and it corrected the crank arm alignment. Yes, Warren, I agree with the disassembly not being a major problem. Just slightly inconvenient for a lazy person, like me. The fitting (hypothetically) would best be placed on the face of each bearing cup. That way the grease would go into the bearing and not just glob all over the spindle. An allen screw would cap the hole. Remove the screw and thread in the fitting. Lub and remove the fitting and recap with the allen screw. Just a dumb idea. JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Tom on 5/10/2003 at 7:47:25 PM
JONathan, getting a crank within one degree of perfect alignment sounds pretty good to me. That's only about 3mm (1/8")out. One degree of misalignment would satisfy 98% of the population, but for those other 2%, read on.....

There are at least four variable parameters that can affect the alignment:

1. Difference in the angles of the taper on the cotter pins.

2. Cotter holes not perpendicular to the crankarm.

3. Spindle flats not parallel.

4. Bent crankarm.

Due to variability in manufacturing, none of these parameters will be perfect. I don't know what the typical tolerance was for the industry in the 70's, when cottered cranks were prevalent, but I wouldn't be surprised if the culmulative tolerance for these four parameters was close to one degree.

Having said that, if we look at the four parameters, the only one that is controllable (for most mechanics) is the taper angle on the cotter pin. There are a couple of relatively simple ways to detect differences between pins as small as 1/10 of a degree. Thus we can eliminate at least one variable.

The easiest method requires a precision mesuring caliper. Take two cotter pins and place them taper against taper, but with the threads pointing in opposite directions. Now place them between the jaws of the measuring caliper and adjust the caliper so that the length of the pins are in contact with the jaws. The jaws will hold the pins parallel and if you hold them in front of a light you can detect amazingly small gaps (0.025 mm or 0.001 inch). Any visible gap at one end of the tapers indicates the difference in angle. If you can't see a see a gap at one end of the tapers, then the angles are, for our purposes, identical. Of course, if there's a gap, the trial and error comes into play. You have to file and recheck until you have something that is satisfactory.

Alternately, you can perform a similar check using an old spindle, a piece of straight rod (you'll need about a 30 cm or 1 foot long piece) and a flat surface. Place the cotter pin on the flat surface, tapered surface facing up. Place the spindle at the head of the cotter pin and lay the rod over top. Adjust the spindle position until the rod contacts the full surface of the taper. Again a light from behind makes it easy to see very small gaps. Now, carefully remove the cotter pin. without disturbing the rod and spindle. Carefully place the second cotter pin under the rod and slide it until the taper just touches the rod. A visible gap at one end of the taper indicates the angle difference. To ensure you didn't disturb the set-up, recheck using the first cotter pin. There should be be no gaps at either end of the taper. If there is, the set-up was disturbed and you need to start all over.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/10/2003 at 10:08:56 PM
No jive. That works great, TOM. Thanks for the engineering lesson. I happen to have a granite slab that's the straightest surface I've ever worked witfor level testing. It was a cut-off scrap from a big kitchen remodel. The slab works great. I like the method #1 as it is remarkably simple for the high level of precison attainable. Part of the fun for me is that I can use a low level (non-dedicated) set of multipurpose tools that with imagination and practice can produce amazingly sound results. I used the T&E method filing and checking the pin placing. Fairly labor intensive. I can't thank you enough for the tips, as I had no quantitative way to measure the process...just all subjective; look and fiddle. I was amazed I got the results that occurred without applying your methods, but with a lot of time fussing. Now, in future efforts, thanks to you, I can proceed with great proficiency. I agree with your conclusion about accepting my results as "good to go". I was trying for perfection, which wasn't warranted...JONathan. That ole UE-8 crank spins better than new!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by sam on 5/10/2003 at 11:17:26 PM
The fitting seen on some old english roadesters is for oil not grease.What you really want to do on bike barrings is keep the grease mosist.Too much grease/or dry grease will only make it hard to pedal.And only a drop or two not too much to disolve the grease.You would still need to over hall as Warren said.And BTW they made cotterless cranks in early 1900 too--beats me why they stopped---sam

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/11/2003 at 4:37:15 AM
Cool. Like some old cars had oil resevoirs that you pumped oil onto the valve train from inside..before the oil pump. You could have a little resevoir under the seat that you could pump for oil to go down into the BB bearings. As for 18th century cotterless cranks. Before there was the metallurgy to alloy steels, the cotterless cranks were probably very expensive to forge along with the precision spindles. The cottered crank is an ancient technology, I'm sure. A very inexpensive way to harness the heavy torques from a crank. I suspect that cottered steel cranks are the strongest of any and all cranks. I think you are more likely to spin the drive spindle before the crank would sheer off the pin. Steel will yield before snapping, which is different than what to expect from cotterless alloy cranks. I just put 20 miles on the UE-8 with cottered cranks. I could easily go 50 miles. You get an interesting dynamic. I notice a harmonic at certain rpms, that seems to amplify the torque...or maybe I'm just imagining this happens, but it is a definite frequency related phenomenon. Those old UE-8 are supernatural bikes...JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Rob on 5/11/2003 at 5:29:58 AM
Boy, you guys are impressive...lots of useful thoughts and ideas in this thread. JONathan, I was going to say the cotters are the only controllable aspect here and have to be absolutely symmetrical, but the thread moved well past that. I try to be continually open-minded about bike technology...Bikes are a continual compromise, based how the bike will be used. I was interested in the comments about harmonics in the steel cranks...we all know the main reason for alloy cranks is weight, but I wonder if in some applications the 'flywheel' principles related to a heavy steel crank can be a positive advantage...maybe in areas of mostly level terrain, steel cranks are a better choice. Maybe there is something else I'm overlooking... Just some thoughts...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Rob on 5/11/2003 at 5:47:51 AM
Oh, I almost forgot...JONathan, I thought you would like to hear this...my last find on my 2003 spring clean-up campaign...Thurs. night, just past the last light...a mid '70's UE-8 in absolutely original shape...all lights fenders, generator, rack. My first thought?...Oh no, here we go again...The thought of it going to the scrap steel yard was too much. It's in very good shape, except there is lots of surface rust...looks like it sat for untold years in a carport. I hope it will clean up OK...so far I couldn't even budge the QR's...I think I'll have to loosen things up with WD-40 first, before attacking it with a wrench.
French bikes...what is it about them??? Low end, high end; they all have some kind of inexplicable charm...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/11/2003 at 6:08:00 AM
Right, Rob. I take the bike path along the bay for testing different rides becuase of several reasons:
1) it is relatively quiet
2) it is flat
3) the surface is smooth, on the main path
4) evenings usually have a calm point where wind is nill
5) the path has mile/KM markers
and lastly, and most important, I have run the path 1000's of times on dozens of bikes.
It isn't exciting, except for wildlife here n' there, but it's a good test run. The Peugeot UO-8 bicycle is by far the most unusual ride. I really have no way to quantify (hence the "supernatural" concept for things we can't comprehend) the data; it's subjective in nature, but something is going on with the bike as a whole. This is on half dozen different U-series mounts. I hit the "zones", as I call 'em, almost at random, but at a medium gear with near redline for that gear. I back off and just add slight pressure for quit a distance before I notice that I'm slowing down. Just a wierd thing and especially with the cottered cranks.
That particular product has attributes worthy of further investigation. Besides, they're a blast to ride. My latest project ('60's UE-8) just needs a brake tune and it'll be tip-top...THanks, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/11/2003 at 7:29:55 AM
Pretty sharp eye, Rob. UE-8's are hard to come by. A little snow-sand blast and paint will do it justice. My UE-8 is incredible for a 40+ BP bicycle. Decals and paint are sweet. Those Mafac "racer" brakes were ahead of the times. The strong dimension of the caliper takes the load, unlike the flat faced calipers. MTB pads slide right in the anchor pin. My UO-8 has Weinmann "vainquers" cp as does my mixte. They are real good brakes. My remaining 8 Peugeots are complete bikes, but mothballed from service. Well, the folder is operational, stoppers are Mafac "racers". I pick up any Peugeot. What's one more? Nice job finding the tourer. They're like rain in the desert, here. BTW, does it have a rear tail-light lens? JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Lenny on 5/11/2003 at 2:41:59 PM
Hi Rob,

Interesting that you mention the "flywheel" principle regarding steel cranks...I was just thinking about this a few days ago while riding a Schwinn Varsity (with its wonderfully strong, heavy, 1-piece "Ashtabula" steel crank...no cotter pins!!!) on a local bike trail (mostly level ground). If I maintained a light pressure on the pedals just so (and with a cadence maybe around 75 rpm or so?) it just seemed that I was getting some kind of flywheel effect. Can't quantify it much more than that...perhaps some more mathematically-inclined posters to this list can comment. Regards, Lenny

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Tom on 5/11/2003 at 4:42:44 PM
There will be a certain amount of flywheel affect (a.k.a. rotational inertia) from steel cranks, but it small relative to amount obtained from steel rims and heavy tires. In simple terms, the flywheel effect increases with distance of the mass from the centre of rotation. For this reason, a steel rim has a greater flywheel effect than a steel crank that weighs more.

It's probably the effect of the steel rims that you're experience on those old Peugeots. Remove the chain from the cranks and spin the cranks and front wheel. Which one stops first? The cranks. That's because they have less rotational inertia. And you've got two wheels to double their inertia, relative to the cranks

How big is the inertia from steel rims? Try swithching to aluminum rimmed wheels and notice the big difference. Better yet, hold a steel rimmed wheel by the axle and give it a good spin. Try twisting the wheel by moving your hands slightly in opposite directions. Notice how how hard it is. (If you're sitting in a good swivel chair, or bar stool, the effect can spin the chair when you twist the axles). Do the same with an aluminum rimmed wheel and notice how much easier it is. That's the flywheel effect of the hevier steel. If you've got some smaller wheels, do a comparison and notice how much smaller the effect is with the smaller wheels. That's because the mass is closer to the axle.

The reasoning behind lighter bikes, particularly rotating parts, is to decrease the inertia and facilitate changes in direction and speed. A lighter bike accerlates and stops faster. It requires less energy to ride up hills. It will handle better, changing directions quicker and more easily. For most people, these factors outweigh the interia advantage of a heavy bike, on flat gound, at constant speed. Paticulary when the door opens on that parked car and you have to stop or swerve.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/11/2003 at 8:39:08 PM
Rob, the "varsity" has a beefed BB with very little torsion on cranking or transmitted from the chain-stays from my riding experience with the beast. The "gyro-effect" is significant to the handling at higher speeds. It tends to damp a lot of momentum // to the axle. The UO-8 has a thinwalled BB and a very lively chain-stay. What I'm experiencing is an acceleration which is like a harmonic, not just plain inertial momentum (Newton's 1st). If I think of the bike frame, myself and the wheels and cranks as a dynamic interaction, then I see a very complex universe of momentum going on. Obviously there is some harmonic damping going on or the bike would shake itself apart. Maybe, the energy is released through the cranks. Just a dumb idea, with nothing but experienced observation to lend support. I'm not claiming anything that is new to physics, just that it's not as simple as I thought...maybe...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/11/2003 at 8:44:40 PM
Bearing adjustments make a huge difference in the ride. I spent an hour getting the BB, frnt. and rear wheel bearings adjusted. Especially frustrating when they change slightly while mounting. The ole T&E method? Has to be.
BTW, those one piece cranks make a lot of sense to me, just for the reasons you stated.Happy rides, JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Keith on 5/12/2003 at 2:29:50 PM
Stronglight made cotterless aluminum cranks as early as 1949, and TA was definitely making them in the 50s, perhaps earlier? TA also made a cottered aluminum crank for a while. Campy, and perhaps others, made a cotterless steel crank. Sheldon Brown has an excellent article on adjusting bottom brackets. He uses the term "Kentucky windage." The problem of course is that when you tighten the lockring it pulls the cup out a bit as the threads get snug, and so the bearings actually loosen. It's also important to know that the quick release compresses hub bearings slightly, so that what feels right (smooth and no play) off the bike will be too tight when the wheel is installed. Sheldon also has instructions on making a tool with an extra quick release that preloads the bearings to get this part right.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/12/2003 at 3:56:14 PM
Thanks, Keith. Helped this putzer out a lot....JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Clyde on 5/13/2003 at 1:53:40 AM
LBS owner once showed me a cotter pin jig to hold pins at correct angle in bench vise. Guess you could have used a file or a stone the achieve proper angle or bevel.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 3:37:55 AM
Yes, a fine, smooth-file works great. I could have used a wet stone wheel, but I use that for my plane blades and the pin would have depressed the face on the wheel, requiring a dressing (not fun). The file works very well. Use a 1" wide, smooth file.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Tom on 5/13/2003 at 5:01:28 AM
Interesting jig Clyde, I haven't seen one myself. You only need to file cotters if they protrude too far, or not enough, or the tapers aren't equal (resulting in the dreaded JONathan syndrome - i.e. crankarms out of alignment - sorry JONathan, I couldn't resist). However, I have designed myself a jig that holds two cotters, so you can file them at the same time and acheive relatively uniform tapers. Basically, all you need is a two inch long piece of right angle iron (I used 1" x 1" flanges, 1/8" thick). Cut two 7 mm slots, 9.5 mm apart in one flange, to accept the threads of the cotter pins. Lay the cotters down on the uncut flange, with the tapers facing up and with their threads protruding through the slots. Now lay a flat piece of metal on the tapers to align them and secure the cotters to the jig using washers and nuts. Verify that the cotters didn't rotate during the securing process, using your metal flat. Now clamp the jig in your vise and you can file both cotters at the same and they should be relatively uniform. To file the thread ends of the taper you may want to cut down one flange. However, I prefer to raise the cotters using different thicknesses of metal as shims. This allows the the jig to be used with all common diameters of cotters (i.e 8.0 - 9.5 mm). It also allow the cotters to sit flat, as some angle stock has a small radius at the inner corner, that will prevent them from laying flat. Verify taper uniformity using the methods described in my earlier post to this thread.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 7:36:53 AM
Syndrome is good. More like "paradox". Why are the pins all alike? If parameters; 2, 3, and 4 were predominately correct, then it would make sense to have identical pins...the parameter #1 would have to be correct. But, since it is known that parameters 2, 3, and 4 are not predominantly correct, we have need for differences between the pins. Yet, they are the same. Therein lies the paradox. The paradox of the pins. So here I stand, file in hand and pin in a vise. I'll get it right somehow. Part of the art of vintage LW restoration. I love it...JONathan
If pi is (it is as far as we know) a transcendebtal number, then there can't be a perfect circle can there? I don't feel so bad about my skewed cranks!

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 7:42:28 AM
I mean "transcendental"...I didn't intend to coin a new word!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Tom on 5/13/2003 at 1:23:31 PM
JOINathan, you are absolutely correct, about the realtionship between the four parameters affecting crankarm alignment. While none of them may be perfect, manufacturing them within the specified design tolerances should provide alignment to satisfy the vast majority of bicyclcists (and maintenenance mechanics). The only time it may become an issue is when any parameter falls outside the tolerance, or when all the paramters lie near the same side of a tolerance limit. Generally, randomness will ensure that some parameters are manufactured on one side of the nominal/perfect dimension, while others lie on the other side. In these cases they tend to cancel out the effect of each other. Still, it's unlikely that the end result will be perfect alignment, though it should be within spec and satisfy almost all of us. However, for those perfectionists who are striving for the Holy Grail of Crank Alignment (HGCA), they can compensate by filing the cotter pins.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Dave on 5/13/2003 at 1:54:13 PM
Hate to be a fly in the ointment , Jonathan, but I had so much trouble with cotter pins that I replace them all with cotterless. I have had loosening up of cotterless crank arms,(mainly my fixed gear bikes) but Locktite seems to have resolved those problems. FYI , Suntour did devise a "Grease Guard" system about 15 years ago which the bottom brackets and headsets had grease ports in them.You would then have a grease gun that would inject new grease and remove old grease , I guess for off-roaders it was a great idea but now we have the "throw-away" sealed bottom-brackets and headsets nowdays.Just my 2-c's worth.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 4:10:37 PM
Tom, I think I understand. Have you considered writng a book about LW restoration. All of my books (>10) have very cursory treatment of all the thorny topics we encounter as "restorers". The same is true of motor repair manuals. Although nothing beats just taking the challenge along with hands-on work, it's really useful to have some grasp of the important elements...what the problem is all about. I'd buy your book!
And Dave, I concur 5x5 with what you're saying. The cottered cranks are superceded by the modern cranks. In a restoration environment or due to availability limitations the cottered cranks have a reason to exist. Cotterless cranks cost $$, and I remember the days when I was just happy to have a ride; any ride. I'd get some clunker going with the slippy, cottered cranks. I don't recall which effect bothered me the most; the knee tendonitus or the high pitch squeaking from the pin rubbing on the spindle. Part of the greater experience, I suppose. Right now, I wouldn't want a cottered crank on any ride other than a vintage LW fun ride. Which, indeed, is fun. I must admit, I find the cottered cranks to be an interesting study. Rides...JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   grease fitting on a BB posted by Tom on 5/13/2003 at 4:59:20 PM
JONathan, for me, the big advantage with cottered cranks are the long life of the steel chainrings. Cotterless cranks are expensive enough, without having to replace a worn out, aluminum chainring every 2-3 years! I would definitely pay the weight penalty to have steel chainrings on good, aluminum, cotterless crankarms. Hey, that's another marketing opportunity to go along with the cotter pin press!

AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Super Sport color's posted by: DannyJoe on 5/10/2003 at 4:07:36 AM
I posted earlier about a Super Sport I own with the serial no. starting as MH which would be Dec.'72, only the color of my bike is Sunset Orange a color used in '73. Having been a Dec.'72 bike did Schwinn paint up late '72 model's in '73 color's and bring them in as 1973 model's? If so, do I have a '72 or '73 Super Sport? Or just a '73 S.S. built in late '72. Were there componet changes from '72 to '73 or only color?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Super Sport color's posted by Kevin K on 5/10/2003 at 12:38:00 PM
Hi Danny Joe. Your bike would be a 1973 model as the Sunset Orange color denotes. Serial number does of course date the frame as having been produced in 1972, but the color wins in this case. I've a 1973 frame in Sunset Orange. I feel these to be one of the keepers as it was the last year for the bike and Sunset Orange was a one year only color. As for components, I don't worry so much. I use quality pieces that function well, Schwinn or not. Enjoy your SS. Kevin

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Super Sport color's posted by DannyJoe on 5/10/2003 at 4:23:40 PM
Thank's Kevin, it is a nice color and I was lucky enough to find this S.S. in great condition, it's almost to pretty to ride, I'm thinking about making it wall art...nahhh! It will be a keeper, I started collecting ballooner's a year or so ago, gathered a few and made them ridable. Then I picked up a couple of Varsity's to use to restore my wife's teenhood Varsity, but they were to nice to part out. So now I seem to have just as many Schwinn LW as ballooner's.

I have been a USCF amateur bike racer since 1987, I'm racing less now and have moved toward's spending more time collecting and fixing up the bike's I've found that interest me. On the LW side my favorite ride would be my '88 Schwinn Ontare which I bought new and raced on for a ten year stretch, it also came with a great fade paint which I think was called sunset, it's a keeper too, Schwinn's first aluminum built ride.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Super Sport color's posted by Kevin K on 5/10/2003 at 9:53:31 PM
Hi. I've seen pics of the Schwinn Ontare but never in person. I've got 2 Super Sports, a 1971 in Kool Lemon and a 1973 in Sunset Orange. Next comes a 1974 Letour in Opaque Blue. Then a 1977 Volare in Pearlescent Orange, a 1979 LeTour IV in Frosty Blue, a 1980 Voyageur 11.8 in Scarlet. Last is a 1984 LeTour Luxe. A blue/greenish color. None of my bikes are stock, but all have original paint. I've had several others lately I either sold off or traded. I'm attempting to keep the collection small. Not so easy. So enjoy the hobby. Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn Super Sport color's posted by Ken on 5/10/2003 at 11:20:51 PM
more info at

AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by: MC on 5/10/2003 at 1:39:01 AM
I just acquired one of these, but have found almost nothing on the web about it. This appears to be about 10-12 years old judging by the components. Where does this rate in the Bridgestone line?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by mike on 5/11/2003 at 6:45:34 PM
Hmmm. Never heard of a Bridgestone Spica and I used to sell the Bridgestone line. There is a Spica made by Giordana (spelling may be not right on). Does it say Bridgestone Spica on the headbadge or on a decal?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/12/2003 at 6:41:01 AM
MC, I have a blue Bridgestone "Spica". I have not found anything about it, except that one was for sale on some list...no price. So much for that plan. It is a road racer for sure, but not a pro model. Mine is in perfect shape. The "Spica" is on the top tube in a script font. Block font "Bridgestone" on the down-tube. Excellent ride. Mine has top end Japanese components for the day...late '80's. It could be RB-2 type that was Grant Peterson's frame design when he was at Bridgestone-USA, I think. Impressive quality of craftsmanship and details; the paint decorations are cool, esp. on the seat-stay flats. They are pretty rare bikes. Hang on to it. JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by Tom on 5/12/2003 at 4:19:43 PM
Well, it's been raining for the past two days, so I decided to sit down and go though my old bicycle buyer's guides from 1983-1994, which are the years Bridgestone USA was in existence. I didn't find a Spica, but here's what I did find for Bridgstone road bikes;

1983: Altair, Antares, Sirius
1984: 400
1985: 300, 400, 600, 700, GV2000
1986: No Bridgestone models listed
1987: Mile 112, Radac 2000
1988-1993: RB-1 and derivatives (i.e. RB-xxxx)

These buyer's guides did not necessarily list all models. However, it appears unlikely that it's from 1984/85 when the models used a base-100 numbering scheme, or post 1987 when they where all RB-XXXX series. So it's probably 1983 or 1986/87, when Bridgestone used names. The other possibility is that it's a foreign model. Maybe if JONAthan or MC would post their component mix, we could nail things down a little closer?

One of these days, when I have a few months to spare, I'll have to go through all my old magazines and create a spreadsheet that lists models, year and component mix!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by mc on 5/12/2003 at 10:47:47 PM
Sounds like I have the identical twin to JONathan's Spica. Mostly Suntour Cyclone. Could it have been a one-year-only issue? Special edition? Is "Spica" some sort of racing term used in the peloton? I thought that I knew them all.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/12/2003 at 11:48:51 PM
That's a good guess. I think it has to do with astronomy. Regulus is a major constellation. Spica is a doggone bright star...in the top 20, anyway. So I conjecture: Bridgestone was naming their bikes after astronomical entities.??
As for my "Spica".
Frame has 4130 tubes
SunTour rear der.
" " frnt. der.
" " hubs (hf)
Apex cranks
Bridgestone "sc" side-pulls (steep angle)
SR stem and bars (nice ones, too)
Geometry wreaks of performance, as opposed to comfort.
pedals are Japanese (Sakae?)
I rode it a few times and after I took a soil sample, it went into the garage to hang next to my Team Fuji...now THAT'S a bike!
A bit too twitchy for me, the Spica. If I had to get somehwhere in a hurry, I'd run it or the Fuji.
I like to have a "racing bike" just for braggin', I guess. Really don't have much use for 'em.
The Nakamura I have is a nice racing bike, too. Way small for me. Someone about 5'8" might find it great. It sure is a light one.
Were you thinking; "Kabuki"? I think Bridgestone built those, too. So my little ole Spica is a '80's bike from what I can gather?
Help a guy...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 3:46:31 AM
Tom, while you are still in a generous mood...the Nakamura "Challenge" has a biopace chainwheel; exage 3000ex derailers; shimano side-pull (like the 600's). The hubs are exage; wheels are ETRTO, 622-16, "Alesa" 116 alloy. Very heavy-duty alloys. 4130 tubes, Vetta seat. The Spica has the SunTour "power shift" shifters. Both bikes are down-tube shift. The Spica looks and acts like a superior ride. The Nakamura is too sm. for me, so I couldn't get a fair read on it, but it is a decent bike, I'd say. THanks...JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by Tom on 5/13/2003 at 2:01:33 PM
JONathan, we got lucky on the Nakamura search. It only took 5 minutes! I just happened to have a 1989 Sports Experts catalogue that incuded that model. It's an exact match for your description, assuming you committed typo and meant a 300EX group. I cross-referenced to some Canadian buyer's guides and there it was again, for 1989 & 1990 (no difference, except price.

FYI, the original cost was $425 - $430 CDN (about $325 US) . Only the 3 main tubes are Cr-Mo. The stays and forks are high tensile steel. Everything you have described is original equipment. This should give a ride quality somewhere between your Peugeot U08 and Fuji Team.

I always thought that the Nakamura was the house brand for a Canadian chain of sports stores. I have never seen them anywhere else and don't recall them ever being listed in the US buyer's guide. If so, it's curious how one reached you. But then again, maybe I'm mistaken. It certainly wouldn't be the first time!

Now, back to the detective work on the Spica!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 4:24:13 PM
Thanks, Tom. Living near 3 major universities and the magnet that was the dot.com boom, there is a considerable influx and "outflux" of people. The thrift stores have settled down in rough parallel to the dot.com era. I have seen a large number of LW's on the road. Lately, I've seen several mixtes! The Nakamura has aero-brake levers, too. The Spica is a better bicycle. The biopace phenomenon ended I thought in the mid-80's. I can't recall seeing biopace on a road bike, only MTB's....Thanks, JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by Tom on 5/13/2003 at 4:44:55 PM
The Cyclone series of derailleurs was produced in non-AccuShift versions for about 10 years, so that doesn't help much. Date codes on Suntour equipment haven't been cracked, that I'm aware of, so that won't help either. However, if it's got Suntour derailleurs, that means it's probably got Dia-Compe brakes and an SR stem, seatpost and maybe crank. Dia-Compe and SR date codes are easy to decypher.

Starting with Dia-Compe, there should be a numeric date code on the back on the caliper arm and/or inside the top of the brake lever. Usually it's a numeric MMYY format, where MM = month, YY = year (i.e. 0483 indicates April 1983). Some parts may have a clock type date code, with the year in the middle and a ring of numbers with a tick mark pointing to the month.

SR/Sakae dates are found on the back of crankarms, and somewhere below the insertion on stems and seatposts. Different numeric formats include YY.MM and YYMM. They also used combined alpha-numeric codes X-YY and YY placed over X(where X represents A through L and indicates January through December). I have seen date codes that are both cast in place or stamped.

Bear in mind that component date codes are not definitive evidence of the year of manufacture for the bike. They could be replacement parts, or old stock ther manufacturer was trying to use up. However, if you can find two or three date codes within the same year, it probably represents the year of manufuacture. The exception are date codes late in the calendar year, which probably represent a bike model for the following year (i.e dates codes on parts for November and December 83 would probably be for an '84 model bike).

Now all you have to do is find those date codes and hope they correlate with each other. Good luck and please post your findings, as I'm curious about this model.

Right now, I'm going through the same thing with an old Legnano. So far I've found date codes on both the hubs and cranks that point to 1960!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/13/2003 at 11:29:26 PM
Spica has a "82" stamped into the inside of the left crankarm. If that is the date; 1982, then it's possibly '81 or 82, is that reasonable? The Nakamura has KALLOY stem and seatpost. The stem has KA80 stamped near the "max hgt" marker. The crank has a raised "86" or "80" (can't say for sure) with a bent looking "0". FC-A300 on the drive crankarm. The bars have a fancy design graphic with "live" over "chin" embossed near the stem clamp. It's just another "terrior" in the kennel. Has forged drops and integral hanger. Nice enough to fix up, but I need the parts for other projects. As a woman's bike, it could be a winner. The Spica is definite second string to the Team Fuji, but I'm keeping it tuned as a spare for mountain blacktop runs. The Team Fuji with a Campy front wheel is fast. I could hit 60 mph no problem, except I'd be scared outa my gloves! JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by Tom on 5/14/2003 at 12:26:34 AM
Since the crank is an SR Apex, the "82" is likely the date code. That would make the Spica a 1982 or possibly a 1983 model, assuming the cranks are original. We'll have a btter idea if MC can provide some info off his Spica.

As for the Nakamura, I believe the "KA80" is the KALLOY part number, with 80 designating an 80 mm extension. "FC-A300" is the Shimano part number for the crank. Shimano's date codes are all encryted and closely guarded, so you can't take what is stamped as being literal. Some even believe that the encrytion is different for for every part (i.e. cranks use a different encryption than brakes, etc.) I'm sticking with 1989 or 1990 as the year for the Nakamura.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/14/2003 at 3:13:15 AM
Thanks a lot, TOM! I'll stick with that. That Naka is all busted down for parts to feed the Peugeot UO-8 with the AVA stem and hevy hoops. The brakes are "exage" that have a "binder bolt" that threads over the anchor pin like a sleeve on a notebook fastener. Pretty doggone funky. Can those be adapted to a regular frame by changing out that bolt to a longer one and use normal half-pipe washers and a nut?
I know you don't charge for technical advise...yet! Thanks, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by Skip Echert on 5/14/2003 at 6:29:35 AM
Hello -
Tom above mentioned the date codes on SunTour components. A likely decode scheme is given at

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by mc on 5/14/2003 at 11:57:47 AM
I stand corected...my derailleurs are VX, not Cyclone. Otherwise a carbon copy of JONathans. The pantographing around the seat tube cluster is very attractive. I'm thinking about selling it...what do you think it's worth?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/14/2003 at 4:02:52 PM
MC, I just checked mine has the Vx, too. The "cyclone" is a superior gear-changer. It's a high performance bike for someone like me...weekend sport-rider. As for $$, I wouldn't know. e-bay, perhaps? The Japanese machines are superb rides, but there were so many and at VERY competitive pricing, it belies their value. It's hard to find a performance bike that's built to handle a 215# driver who's hard on equipment, which is my plight. It's also one of the very few bikes of its genre that I feel comfortable pushing, so I'm keeping mine as a ride. I crashed once already, but only messed up the front wheel a bit. Changed to Campy front that I alternate on my Team Fuji which is a much better bike, IMHO. It was driver error as I was going too fast for the conditions and swung a turn into some muddy sand on hard surface...a bad mix for tiny tires. I probably would have cleared on my UO-8. It takes practice to handle those higher-spirited mounts. Think about what it would cost to have a similar performance bike that's new. Well, in my looks, there aren't any until you start looking at the ones hanging with security cables. There isn't much in between junk and "outa sight". Just my 2c's. In my case, the Spica uis a ride not a collectible...Good luck in selling....JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bridgestone Spica posted by JONathan on 5/15/2003 at 2:41:21 AM
Thanks, Skip. That is a great source for date decoding....JONathan

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mixte Schwinn Le Tour posted by: Bryant on 5/10/2003 at 12:44:54 AM
Well after I picked up my Peugeot with the stuck cotters from my LBS, I stopped off at a Goodwill store on the way home. There were two bikes of interest, a Raliegh Grand Prix, and a Schwinn LeTour Mixte. I checked out the Grand Prix, noticed the made in Japan sticker, and passed it by. Now I know the LeTour was made in Japan by Panasonic, yet I saw that as okay, a part of the Schwinn history. If the Raleigh was made in England, I would have chosen it instead (or maybe also). Strange how the mind works. Am I becoming a bike snob? Anyway, I place the year of manufacture of the LeTour at 1975, first year of the Letour Mixte, based on component dates (Dia-Compe Brakes are great for that). There is no date stamp on the Schwinn world on the Head tube and I can find no other serial number other than on the rear dropouts. Anyone know where I can look to confirm my guess at the date?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mixte Schwinn Le Tour posted by JONathan on 5/10/2003 at 5:30:30 AM
I don't think you are a bike snob. If you were buying one to ride, you might pick the Japanese Raleigh. I would. The Japanese bikes are great rides. The historical attributes of vintage bikes is what fuels my interest. The British bikes are doggone funky, too. The Schwinn mixte is a bit rare. Never have seen one myself. I have a fair collection of Peugeot mixtes and a Motobecane. I use one for hill climbs and boonie-bouncing up the canyon. They're a trip off road. I put ape-hanger bars on it so I can ride upright (step machine) on the pedals. Way cool. It's like a cross between a BMX and road bike. I can wheelie, no problem. Can't handle the BMX circuit because of the 41 inch wheelbase high-centering or bridging on the jumps. Pretty doggone tough frame, too. If the Schwinn is like my Peugeot UO-18, you got a real nice bike for a change of pace ride. Mixtes are under-rated machines, IMHO....JONathan

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Mixte Schwinn Le Tour posted by Kevin K on 5/12/2003 at 10:39:00 AM
Hi Bryant. Your LeTour may be a USA built frame. From 1979 until the mid 80's most LeTour frames were built in either Chicago or Greenville. Tell me more of what the frame decals/headbadge say. Kevin K

MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by: Bryant on 5/9/2003 at 3:45:39 PM
HELP!!! I picked up a Peugeot UO-8 sometime back and was having a problem getting the cotters out of the cranks. Took it to my LBS and let him try. That was three weeks ago. He tried the very large C-clamp and socket, with heating and soaking and a little tapping, and nothing happened. Short of using a sledge hammer, I welcome any other ideas. These guys are really stuck!!! I am willing to sacrifice the pins (got another pair of 9mm cotters), and the bottom bracket (take it off an old Gitane from the same time frame) if need be.

   RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 4:11:21 PM
John E. spoke of a special tool that is specifically dor cotter pin removal. Aside from the remote chance that you know someone in this day with that tool...may I suggest my method which has worked well on even the toughest stuck buggers. Firstly, I spray a little bit of WD-40 on both ends of the pin. Unwind the nut to make flush with the tip of the threading. I place a stubby socket that allows the unthreaded end of the pin to slide through. I have an old, old, 2 inch vise that has a box-section slide for the moving jaws. DON"T use cheapo new vises! You need strength and precision. I position the jaws dead center in line with the pin. Crank it a bit to make sure it all looks squared up. WEAR GOGGLES from here on out. I just start working the vise a little at a time, tapping with a PLASTIC hammer to impact the "welded" interface. Eventually, the pin gives a bit...STOP. Crank the screw a bit further out. Drive the pin a tad more. You can figure the rest. Oh, I also spray a tad bit of WD-40 on top of the spindle. This is so you can loosen any adhesion of the crank arm. Sometimes the pin has been jacked in out of alignment, such that you need to move the crank arm a bit to get it so the pin can exit. This has worked for me. Trick is to get an OLD vise somewhere, preferably one built in Pennsylvania or New York...or Toledo, Oh. That's my 2c's...
SAFETY NOTE: I bought a full-face shield at Sears for $13. That investment has proven worthwhile on many occasions.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 4:38:36 PM
Hello, Bryant. The C-clamp is poorly designed for the purpose. The problem is in the ball and pad on the end of the moving screw. You need three hands; 2 to work the thing and a third to keep that swivel squared up. Fine feat if you can master it with 2 hands.
Sometimes the threaded end of the cotter will bend. To avoid this obstacle, I place a couple washers or (better) another nut on the pin. If you have about 1/16 inch gap between the lower nut and the crank, the chances of bending the threaded part goes away down. Just remember to STOP as soon as you feel some give. Then take off the second nut that was the "spacer" and proceed.
A rag around the vise handle cushions your hand...sometimes you gotta really heave on it. I just finished a UE-8 BB overhaul and I was in a hurry and bent the threased part. I just rammed it on through. Itiot that's me. It's better to not scrap up the crank inside. Remember, the Peugeots take the 9.0mm pins. I bought a bunch when I found a guy who had some. Most LBS's, esp. the bike assemblers barely know what you're talking about. I live a University that has a shop with service for older bikes. That's the hardest part to find in modern shops....JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by David on 5/9/2003 at 4:39:27 PM
Any bike shop that has been around more than 20 years ought to have the Park cotter press tool. (In fact, they ALL should have it!) I tried the big C-clamp technique and it failed utterly for me - and the Park tool removed the same cotter as if it were stuck only in butter. It's hard to imagine a cotter that could resists its pressure. Try calling bike shops in your area and just ask if they have one. They come up on ebay from time to time; around $50 generally.

   RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Rob on 5/9/2003 at 4:46:34 PM
JONathan's approach is exactly the approach I've used on old Peugeot cotters, but with a 4" vise, always, so far successfully, but I must say I usually can't salvage the cotters. I haven't had any trouble buying 9mm cotters, though the facet angle is always an issue...usually requires some careful, steady treatment with a file.

Heed the safety warnings though...when the cotter lets go it's usually with quite a sudden 'pop'...

   RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 4:58:03 PM
Yes, Rob. The bigger jaws are better. I have come close to maxing my little ole 2 on a couple runs. Problem is, his big brother weighs 95# and is carriage bolted to bench. The idea I guess is to remove the cotter without destroying the whole bike at the same time....JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Lenny on 5/9/2003 at 5:35:04 PM
Hi Bryant,

I have had good luck with drilling out the cotter pins (starting from the threaded end is usually easier), then using a metal punch to knock out the "shell" of the cotter. Not elegant, but it has worked for me. However, you need to use a drill bit large enough in diameter to remove most of the center part of the pin, but not so large as to damage the axle or the crank arm. It's always fun to see the wide variety of equally effective solutions offered up by posters to this list.

Regards and good luck,

   RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Chris on 5/9/2003 at 5:39:07 PM
The big table vise. Lay the bike across it and hold it straight while somebody turns the handle and it'll pop out just as they have been saying. Soak it in household oil. Rusty? Use ammonia.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Chris on 5/9/2003 at 5:40:06 PM
French cotters are no problem to replace anyways.

   RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Tom on 5/9/2003 at 6:53:08 PM
Peugeot had two different cotters, that I'm aware of. This could be part of the problem. Both were the same diameter (9mm), but had different lengths, flats and threads. The older style was shorter, had a flat that extended the entire length of the body and used 6mm x 1mm threads. The newer style was 2.5 mm longer, had a partial flat, and used 7mm x 1mm threads.

JONathan, your approach is novel and should work as well as any dedicated cotter pin press. The only advantage with the cotter pin press, is that it's not as cumbersome. That vise and socket trick must be a two person job! On the down side, the press is expensive, unless you use it often.

Chris, thanks for the ammonia tip. I've never had one that my cotter pin press wouldn't remove, but you never know when and where such a trick could be helpful.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 8:38:47 PM
Hey, Tom. Thanks for the cotter lesson. I'll check that out, next time things get squirrelly. Oh, the ole 2" vise is a two-hander. I can hold the socket and position the jaws with the movable jaw TDC on the nut. I used to tape the socket in place, but if you get into the "zen" of pin removal...don't need it. My outdoor "workshop" is hit with sun and the steel gets hot! Leaving a bike on the table will heat that crank up enough that I bet the ID of the spindle hole will expand (more than the pin) making it even easier, if you wear gloves! Hold some ice on the end of the pin for a minute. Just a crazy thought. I've had C-clamps (imported species) literally fly apart on me. That's when I decide there needs to be a better way. Drilling out? First off, use titanium-nitride bits, becuase they are very hard on the surface of the bit. Brittle, but very hard. I recommend a "pilot hole" that's sole purpose is to set the stage for the bigger bit. Use a small bit for the pilot. WEAR GOGGLES, especially with drill bits...they can send off like shrappnel when they go. Don't force it, let the bit cut. The pilot-hole is essential, because the larger bit will track off...ever want a perfect hole? Grind it, don't drill it. Use a chaser that's designed for impact and always use a ballpeen hammer, they are designed to not shatter chips like I've experienced with claw-hammers (carpenter's). A "dead-blow" hammer is good if you have one...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 9:31:28 PM
That's the "dead blow" hammers designed for driving pins, axles, steel, etc. Not the "carpenter's" with cheap castiron heads!!

   RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Bryant on 5/10/2003 at 12:43:22 AM
Well, thanks for all the info. I'm going to think about it awhile and maybe see if a cotter press comes avaialble. My LBS tried to order one and found out Park doesn't make them anymore. He said Park told him to use a drift pin and hammer. There's no rush and I found patience in these matters is a virtue. Thanks again all.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Chris on 5/10/2003 at 4:06:14 PM
Park Tool is stupid if they did tell a customer to use a hammer and punch!

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Chris on 5/10/2003 at 4:17:11 PM
My feelings and my comments are not meant at anybody here:
Ok, enough already. It's time somebody makes a tool and offers it here for sale here at this web site for this group. A good, workable tool priced right. This is garbage, all this hassle with cotter pins. It's not rocket science and this subject has been written about a lot for years.
Half the point in making the cotter pin press was so the user would be safe from flying bits of cotter pin or bits of a breaking apart punch.
They stoped making the tool and now people will possibly get hurt in trying to drill and punch these out. Like I said, use a table vise. The punch can miss and spark and break off. Bits of metal lodged in ones skin even with eye protection.
Unless you use a drill press you will ruin the crank, break off drill bits, and it's a messy, bothersome, risky. pain in the tail to do.

Why was a decision made to discontinue this tool? Especially with all the millions of cycles still equiped with cotter pins?
Heck, why don't we just go making other tools as well why were at it? Sell then cheaper too and have these tools come with every bit of information ever written about how to use this or that tool and how to do it all like a pro as well. A fold out sheet making it easy for the newbie or novice.

   RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Jimbo Jones on 5/12/2003 at 6:35:38 AM
Interesting how logic and futility go hand in hand. I tried on my own the socket and C clamp method and broke the C clamp. Then I tried a sledge. Then I drilled about 75 % of the pin away ( took about three days and five bits) and then I tried the sledge/ hole punch method. Then I finally took the bike to my local LBS who got it out in less than a minute. He didn't charge me so I didn't ask questions. My guess is that even though you may be attacking the pointy end of a wedge, the pin is in so tight that any blunt force still ends up musherooming the pin into an even more solid state with the crank arm. When you finally realize that fact you realize how silly it was to try and use the C clamp. Doesn't look like it would take a special tool but it sure does.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by JONathan on 5/12/2003 at 4:13:45 PM
Jimbo, I use WD-40 which seems to work into the edges of pin-spindle contact. I let it do it's thing for a half hour. If you do any mechanics work at all, I'd look around (flea markets?) for a good ole vise. If you have to do it, the vise is the only way to go. Since the C-Clamp snapped, it was probably the cast iron type. The forged steel clamps are hard to find and expensive. Ever looked at a Stanley Jack plane from 5o yrs. BP and then looked at one at the "tool" center of major stores? That's why I love the vintage LW's; they were built with pride...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Really Stuck cotters posted by Jimbo Jones on 5/14/2003 at 11:59:12 PM
Yes indeed I do think the vise I have now would have done the trick. Didn't try any solvent either.

AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by: Kevin K on 5/9/2003 at 12:05:39 AM
Hi. I was given a set of old stock Cycle Pro 27 x 1 1/8 " folding tires. I am installing them on a 27" UKAI rim. Not going on so well. What's the trick to putting these on? Thanks, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 3:25:10 AM
Hi, Kevin. I have kevlar MTB folders. I haven't used one yet, because I take it as a spare on overnights in the boonies. My plan is to partial inflate the tube inside the tire, OFF the rim. Then mount one side of the tire and adjust inflation to get the closing side on the rim. Tweak it then inflate to STP. The tire can't collapse if the tube is pushing out against it. As stated, never done it, but that's what I was planning on doing. Goo luck. In the Warner MTn. of N.E. California there is a lot of volcanic rock that can chip chunks out of heavy vibram soles. It only takes a little swipe on the wrong rock to mess up the tire. Those folders are nice for compact transport....JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by Kevin K on 5/9/2003 at 10:58:01 AM
Hi. Ok, but the problem is that it's like putting a 26" tire onto a 27" rim. I've got one bead on but the other, no way. Any ideas? Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by Ron on 5/9/2003 at 12:38:51 PM
I had the same problem with a new set of Nashbar tires on a set of older Wienmann rims. Starting at the valve, keep both beads in the groove, and slooowly work the bead around. Make sure the tube is well concealed by the tire so that it doesn't get pinched. This is one time that partially inflating the tube will work against you. Good Luck!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 4:49:59 PM
It can't be as bad a motorcycle tire! Try swabbing the bead with some diluted dishwashing soap. Don't use the scented variety unless you want to smell it for a few days while riding...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by Kevin K on 5/9/2003 at 6:55:44 PM
Tried it. Not even close. Bummer

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by Darryl on 5/9/2003 at 9:29:23 PM
I had same problem with Victoria 700x23 clinchers on NOS Nisi rim. Very tight. A thick rim strip can make a tight fitting tire impossible. Try mounting the tire without tube and rim strip and you will see what a difference it makes. This will also stretch the tire some. Remove tire after it has been on for at least overnight. Then use the thinest rim strip that covers the spoke holes but doesn't tend to climb up the sides of the rim. Velox cotton is good. Mounting tire with tube should be easier now. Worked for me.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   OLD STOCK FOLDING TIRES posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 9:45:01 PM
OK, just a wild thought, but you are desperate. Try soaking the tire in very warm water, assuming it won't harm the tire, that may softenit up. Works on the old 5/8 hose tip into a 1/2 inch hose repair jobs I've done.Good luck, don't run me out for suggesting it....JONathan

AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by: Tim on 5/8/2003 at 9:50:09 PM
I guess I should realign my priorities, but I am having a hard time concentrating on work right now, because this evening I am meeting with an elderly gentleman who is selling his Flying Scot tandem (I posted about this earlier).

He advertised it in a major classified ads newspaper, but from speaking with him it sounds as though I am the only one who called!?? He doesn't want a lot for it. I may yet be surprised that it isn't what it sounds, but who could misdescribe such an unusual bike?

I'll post tomorrow about what happens, but by then I hope to be its owner :o)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 3:45:03 AM
Nice going, "skipper"! Right place at right time. That brings up a question that's been cycling (ha, ha) in my head for a while. I feel like a "keeper of the flame" for the ole LW's. I see ballon tire bozo-bikes lined up in the stores. I can't see commuting or riding seriously with those. The vintage LW's are solid bikes that usually just need new wheels and shoes and some greasing up and they're ready to fly. I love fixing them up, but nobody seems to think they're worth riding, yet they'll buy JUNK. I have given some away to people who appreciate the quality and looks. My "regular guy" UE-8 looks better to me than the whole line ups at the LBS's. The cottered cranks are cool looking. The bike has a personality. Your're discovering that, too. I'd love to commute on that FS, not just fix it up. Coolest ride around, IMHO.

   Got It posted by Tim on 5/9/2003 at 6:45:37 AM
I now have the bike, and couldn't agree more. Maybe not for commuting to work, but after riding it, I see some lazy summer Sundays with my sweetie and I riding the coolest bike in town.

The bike is older than I expected. It has so many lugs given its tandem construction, and they are all ornate and beautiful. It is red, with white panels and gold trim (all hand painted). There are chips throughout, but the paint is lustrous and beautiful, and over 90% good. The half-stays and front lugs are chromed, as are the fork crown and steerer tube. All chrome on the bike is perfect.

It has front and rear top tubes, and a tube back from high on the front seat tube, to the bottom of the rear seat tube. The rear seat tube is beautifully curved forward to accommodate the rear wheel. The head badge is of a thistle, and on both sides of one lug mid-bike is a recessed thistle decal. "The Flying Scot" is in big script on many of the tubes, in the white panels. Several smaller blue stickers say "The Scot Continental Modern".

It has pump pegs, and a fork braze-on on which is mounted a large "Lucifer" headlight, with a matching generator on the other side. The rear chainstay has a special bracket, I guess for the Cyclo derailleur. There are lubrication nipples all over, including the headset.

An indication (for someone I'm sure, not me) is that it came originally with a Cyclo derailleur. While a Suntour VGT is installed to work with a wider range cogset, I have the orginal Cyclo derailleur, full shifter assembly, and cogset in a box. It also has original cantilever brakes, unlike anything current. They are labelled "The Cantilever Brake", with a patent number, and they are strong (by the way, I rode the bike solo, and it's like pedalling a luxury ocean liner!)

The hubs are BIG flange 'Air Lites', with 'Dunlop Tandem' rims. It has the original Bluemels fenders, yellowed but not broken and complete hardware. The front seat is a Brooks (correct?), and the rear one is a much newer seat. The front and rear stems are adjustable (the front one is a lovely mechanism). The front bars are correct, but I think the rear ones (swept back uprights, with rubber grips) have been replaced. No marks on the cranks. There is an unfortunate big, honking rack on the back, but the clamps are tape wrapped and haven't hurt the paint much.

Oh, and it has a bell.

The original owner, an active and interesting older gentleman, bought it only 5 years ago, before which it belonged to a mechanic for a local bike shop that has been a specialist in classic road bikes since before they became classics. The gentleman also showed me his 1978 Cinelli, which he holds as a keepsake as he bought it new, and has ridden many places on it, including through Japan. The Cinelli is immaculate ... but that's another story.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by Tom on 5/9/2003 at 1:13:38 PM
Tim, I'm glad that things worked out well for you. I'm also jealous! I'd really love to have something like that. Perhaps it's just as well, for while it's something I'd really want, it's not something I really need. Besides, I've always had bad luck with tandems.

Back in the mid 70's I was working at our LBS when a custom brought in a red Gitane tandem. He wanted the brakes and derailleurs adjusted and asked us to test ride it, just to make sure everything was OK. The shop he had bought it from could never get things to work properly. That evening the shop manager told me to take it home and test it out.

On my way home, I was stopped at a corner, when a gorgeous girl approached me and enquired about a ride. I knew her from school, but we a couple years apart and she was beyond reach for someone like me. Here was my big chance! How could I refuse?

So, she climbs onto the stoker position and I head down the main drag, where hopefully all my friends will see me. The tandem (and the stoker) drew a lot of attention and appreciate smiles. I was in my glory! The next thing I knew, I had a mouthful of asphalt. The front wheel looked like the prototype for the Pringle's potato chip and the fork had about a foot of reverse rake on it. I'd like to report that I had been a gentleman and had broken my stoker's fall, but that was not the case. She had simply stepped off when it started to tip. To her credit, she didn't walk off and leave me there. However, it was small consolation, as I had to sheepishly wheel it by all the people we had just ridden past.

Back at the shop, I got raked over the coals by the manager and he took the cost for a new fork and wheel out of my paycheque. When the Gitane rep brought in the new parts, he confirmed that the original fork was not a tandem fork, and was the probable cause of the accident. I felt vindicated, but I never got an apology or my money from the manager.

As for the girl, there is no fairy tale ending. We didn't fall in love and get married, though we did become friends and rode together regularly, but never again on a tandem.

Now there are a couple morals to this story:

1. Be careful when substituting parts on a tandem. Normal LW parts may not be strong enough, particularly wheels and forks.

2. Never take the take the tandem without your wife or girlfriend, unless you're looking for her to file the divorce papers. Tandems are serious girl magnets, on par with cute puppies and expensive foreign sports cars.

While the above story is true, it is also posted with the intent of making you hand her over to me (the tandem, not your wife). Just kidding. Enjoy!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by Tim on 5/9/2003 at 4:50:11 PM
I will heed your warning Tom. I will ride the bike with my sweetie (who also has lovely styling), or with my hulking buddy. Hopefully then I will be able to ward off the throngs of beautiful women hoping to stoke for me.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by David on 5/9/2003 at 4:56:10 PM
If you can get some digital pictures of this machine from heaven, please post them on the web (this site, perhaps). I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to see them.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by Tim on 5/9/2003 at 5:41:25 PM
I am already trying to find a friend with a digital camera. If I succeed, how can I post photos on this site?

I am still pinching myself this morning about my new 'machine from heaven'. I quite agree with that title.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by David on 5/9/2003 at 7:49:29 PM
Go up to the list of message boards at the top of this page and scroll down to "Add a picture..." You'll need to have the files storing your pictures on your computer. Your friend with the digital camera can probably help - email them to you or something. Can't wait to see it!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by JONathan on 5/9/2003 at 11:09:27 PM
By all means. Least you can do for guys like me, who only dream. It sounds like an "Age of Steam" type deal...lub nipples?? Can't beat that with a stick....JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by Bob Hufford on 5/12/2003 at 1:38:27 AM

Congrats on what may be a super find! Check out this website and see if you can put a date to your new bike.


Best of Luck,


   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   EXCITED! posted by Tim on 5/12/2003 at 4:52:07 PM
Over the weekend I found the serial number for my Flying Scot built for two. It's the 528th frame the company built in 1949! Mechanically it's in magnificent condition. The only non-orig parts seem to be the rear seat and bars, and the pedals. Nothing is missing. Still pinching myself, expecting at the end of the work day it's really not sitting out there in my garage. But it is.

I will be forwarding photos to Bob Reid of the Flying Scot web page, and he will post them. He hasn't seen a Scot tandem before. I will post here when the photos are up.

AGE / VALUE:   serial numbers posted by: Shelley on 5/8/2003 at 9:52:01 PM
I have a Chicago made Schwinn bike with a serial number as HD92523. I have looked in the charts to see how old it is but can't seem to make a match. Is this a real Schwinn or do I have a fake? If its real can I get help with matching this number with a year? Thanks

   Schwinn  serial numbers posted by John E on 5/8/2003 at 11:15:12 PM
HD92523 sounds like a real Chicago Schwinn to me, Shelley. Unless I am mistaken, H=Aug. and D=1968.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   First e-bay listing posted by: Gralyn on 5/8/2003 at 7:36:23 PM
I thought I would try something here. I need to get rid of some bikes....and at the same time - support my hobby. So, I thought I would try the e-bay thing. So here it is: my very first e-bay listing of a bike:


AGE / VALUE:    posted by: Rob on 5/8/2003 at 4:29:14 PM
Well...I'm still picking them up of the sidewalks!!! This is the last of the spring clean-up weeks in suburban Vancouver...for those who know the area...Coquitlam...only three communities still have this annual event in this area, fortunately three of the largest ones. I guess these munis have decided it's cheaper than cleaning the junk out of the ravines and parks!!!

Anyway here's the list...nine bikes in three days...three are definite keepers, or will be passed on/sold to others. I ignored lots of low-end bikes, including a matched set (his and hers), limeish green Royce Unions...Sorry, Gralyn).

Here's the list(I'll try to be concise so as not to bore those who aren't interested):

Peugeot UE-8 - mid 70's-(Basically the same as the UO-8)-the touring extras...fenders, lighting system were gone, otherwise totally original and in fairly good shape...color...that interesting Peugeot purple. This is a keeper...

Fuji 450 RE -probably late '80's - I guess this is a kids model...regular size higher quality alloy rear wheel; 24" front wheel...very good shape and very good parts...I'm not sure what to do with this one...I won't be riding it...

Miyata 100 - probably early '80's - very tall, in fact it's the tallest bike I've very seen...what it the tallest practical size of a frame?...it has some good parts

Marinoni - mid to late '80's - a very good Quebec company...I guess with Italian immigrant framebuilders. (I think Marinoni markets significantly into the USA), Columbus Cromor tubing, totally Shimano 600 early indexing, very clean, and well looked after, everything there except the wheels. A definite keeper...it's exactly my size.

Custom Cycles Tour de Canada -early 1980's?-don't ask me, never heard of this one before, but the parts are very interesting--all Sachs-Huret drive train...Dia Compe brakes, very nice Wolber 58 alloy rims. I don't think the frame is much, maybe I'll find out differently at some point.

Mikado Gaspe---must be made in Canada...I've heard of the name before...very dirty and beatup, but has good parts. I think this one is actually supposed to be an MTB...it has a mix of road bike parts and MTB parts...good drop-down bars...good allowy wheels and I don't think they are 26"...

2 Nishiki Olympics - late '70's - both rather tired, one worse than the other...good parts, the usual Sugino/DiaCoOmpe/SunTour mix, and the standard alloy wheels.

Norco Triathalon - I would say 1982 - (Norco is a Canadian company that has had much of it's product over the years made in Japan by Kuwahara..I would guess that's who made this one. The bike has about a 10 to 15 year layer of dust over it...it has sat for a long, long time...it is actually in very good shape. Cyclone Mark II drivetrain, shifters say, "SunTour Symmetric", high end Araya 700c wheels, nice Italian seat. Tubing is Tange Mangaloy (not the "Mangaloy 2001" that I see more frequently). This is a keeper...

That's it...along with the bikes I found in other spring clean ups a month ago, the total for 2003 is 24 of which at least 10 are well worth getting back on the road...amazing what people throw out...I guess for the general public these old road bikes, both the junky ones and the good ones have become virtually invisible.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Dave on 5/8/2003 at 7:34:29 PM
Maybe it's a good time of year to visit out neighbors to the north.The spring cleaning stuff in the North Shore,(Chicagoland), suburbs are picked over very quickly and the bikes I've seen before the pickers arrive are almost always Varsinental's.Rob , I'm very envious!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Gralyn on 5/8/2003 at 7:41:48 PM
I wish they had something like that around here.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Tom on 5/8/2003 at 8:28:58 PM
Rob, nice finds, particularly the Marinoni! The early ones with the Fleur-de-Lis cutouts, as opposed the "M" are very collectable. A buddy has the 2nd one built! However, any Marinoni is a sweet ride. Guiseppe is a real craftsman and one of the few still building quality steel frames. I'll be visiting him soon. If you give me your S/N, I can probably get you the exact date of manifacture.

Miyata made frames up to 63 cm (25 in.) centre to centre. My catalogues indicate the 100 model as being available from 1984 - 1987. If you give me some components, I can probaly pinpoint the year.

Our local Sping Clean-Up (we call it a Treasure Hunt)is June 07. Anybody wanting to come up and hunt down some Canadian bikes for their collection is more than welcome. I could probably put you up for a night or two. Just to entice you, a couple years back, I got a Jeunet Pro with Reynoilds 531DB, Huret Jubilee and TA Pro.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Tim W on 5/8/2003 at 11:08:50 PM
I am also in the Vancouver area, and was just talking to a friend who lives out Coquitlam way. She says that there are still lots of bikes sitting out by the sidewalk ready to be wheeled (or carried) away. It's too far for me to venture, but I hope someone else is also saving the good ones.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Tom on 5/9/2003 at 2:18:33 AM
Most manufacturers produce 25" frames as their largest size, but the largest production frame I'm aware of is 28", which was available on the Panasonic Deluxe 2000. It used plain gauge, chrome-moly tubing (I wonder why). Several other manufacturer's offered 27" frames for certain models (Centurion, Fuji, Kabuki, KHS, Panasonic, and Sekai). Perhaps they were the official bicycles for NBA teams!

I know that custom frames have been built larger. I recall seeing an extremely tall one that was a normal diamond frame, but with a extra pair of stays running from the head tube to the rear dropouts (sort of like a mixte frame with a top tube). Unfortunately, I can't recall how tall it was.

And if we really stretch the definition of tallest bike, check out http://www.recordholders.org/en/records/didi.html

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Rob on 5/9/2003 at 4:23:06 PM
A bit of correction on Norco...I think I was wrong on the Japanese company that made their products...I seem to remember being down this road a year or so ago...but I think the company that made their products was Nakamura...not Kuwahara...Norco was tied in with the Nishiki brand...maybe I should leave it for one of the pros to comment if they want...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Rob on 5/9/2003 at 4:30:24 PM
Thanks Tom,

I'll take a closer look over the weekend...I can't remember what the components on the Miyata are at the moment...likely SunTour and likely fairly good, or I wouldn't have bothered grabbing it...I'll also look for the Marinoni serial #. I would also be interested in knowing what the original wheels, hubs and freewheels were...those were the only parts missing...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Tom on 5/9/2003 at 6:26:37 PM
Rob, wasn't Nakamura the house brand for Sports Experts about 10-15 years back? I recall them being far worse than any Norco!

I do recall Norco distributing Nishiki. I believe they took the line after Shields went out of business, around 1980. Unfortunately, I don't don't know who the manufacture(s) were.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Rob on 5/9/2003 at 10:09:21 PM
I guess I'm really getting confused...now I'm thinking the name was Kamamura...maybe I just better leave it there. I remember John E. mentioning a year or so ago that Nishiki was made by a Japanese company with a name sounding like that. And I think the US marketer was WSI...Maybe John E. will comment if this thread has caught his eye...

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:    posted by Mike on 5/16/2003 at 11:32:29 PM
Spring clean up in Saint John New Brunswick! Well, actually in Rothesay as SJ says can't afford. I was out early as local landfill prefers to crush bikes for metal rather than sell for salvage (ongoing discussion with them) and found;

very little.
A Coke Fountain machine
3 chairs
a spare (brand new) tire for my truck
a working 19" colour tv
3 old CCMs Momma, Poppa and daughter bikes from the 40's?
a Supercycle (Canadian Tire brand) with odd components, Hurat Alvit ders, Racer brakes, tiny steel bars, strip and keep parts
a Deeley, yep a badged 'Grand Tour" deeley from Vancouver with suntour bar end shifters (why I grabbed it)probably will also become parts.
Oh well, only the peninsula clean up to go.... Mike