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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

MISC:   UO-8 posted by: JONathan on 6/22/2003 at 6:24:33 PM
The white UO-8 on E-Bay didn't receive any bids. (see earlier post)
I found that fact to be a bit inexplicable. Possibly it's not collectible enough.
This may be true..assume it. Then that leaves a really cool bike that will ride great, last a long time and is an excellent value for anyone interested a decent ride. No takers.
OK, so what gives?...JONathan

   RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by Warren on 6/22/2003 at 10:26:46 PM
Honestly JONathon, I wouldn't pay more than $20 for one, even if it was in great shape. I don't know where you come from but here in Toronto, the streets have been littered with UO-8's for decades. It doesn't matter whether it was a good, sound design or not...it is just too common to have much value.

I paid $35 for a 67 AO-8 because it was all original in pristine condition and because it really preceded the bike boom and there were less made. I'm keeping that one.

   RE:RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by Douglas on 6/23/2003 at 12:16:09 AM
I agree. It's a common bike in not that great of shape.I see these bikes regularly at sales for $15-$25, Some, in better condition than the one we are discussing, are being given away (these ones I take). The non-bidding does not surprise me. $275 BIN, yeah, I wish.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by JONathan on 6/23/2003 at 1:30:07 AM
Here in coastal N. Calif. thgere isn't an overabundance of them as you have described for the N.E. There were a lot of Italian bikes out this way...which is cool with me. I love the It. bikes. Lots of Japanese bikes, too. They are the best value, IMHO. Craftsmanship on Bridgestones, Univega, Nishiki, Fuji, etc. is superb. I guess it's a demographics thing, possibly a sampling variation on my part. I just got a Motobecane "mirage" from a neighbor, today, for $5! It'sin great shape with mavic competition rims and SunTour "power shift", "V" rear and Simplex frnt. SR cranks and stem with alloy bar. Weinmann 610/750 "Vainqueur 999" cp/ brakes. Real nice ride. He bought a new MTB and didn't couldn't pump the tires on the Mirage (presta), so I was the lucky guy who relieved him of that onerous task...gladly. I pumped up the tires and rode it home 2 blocks. I think he had second thoughts, but he held to the $5 price. He was going to test ride it, but I cautioned him that would not be a good idea. The ride would make him regret selling it. Seriously, even out of tune and low tire pressure, it makes a MTB look stupid on blacktop. It doesn't really matter to me, I guess, becuase I love the French LW's even if they aren't getting the respect (=bucks) they deserve in the biking public. If E-Bay serves a global market, I'm still amazed. Thanks for the opinions. I guess "moth-balling" for a decade might improve their appeal. Now, I got to get that "mirage" correct, before dark....Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by Warren on 6/23/2003 at 4:15:02 AM
We seem to have a different value system. I can't use the term "craftsmanship" with any of the aforementioned bikes...they are, at best, well-made production bicycles. They are not likely to ever attain collectors value in our lifetime...maybe our children's children. There were millions of these types of bikes made. They ride well.

High quality, double-butted 531 and Columbus SL frames are often much better bikes in terms of ride, weight and appeal. Even then, many of these are still considered production bikes, and will not get big dough either.

If I look hard, I can find a 70's/80's double butted frameset with a decent group of campy parts (NOT Valentino) for around $500 cdn or a little more. That is not far from the $275 Buy-it-now for that Peugeot...it's ludicrous, really.

Yes, some of the better Japanese framesets rank up there, as does the better componentry. Set your sights high and be selective. Don't buy a Tange Infinity tubeset...get a Champion #1 frame or an Ishwata 022 or 019 frameset. Of course good Columbus and Reynolds are almost always desireable. Spend a little more and you'll have a nice frame to hang all of those decent parts you've been collecting...NOT the simplex.

Just my two cents...

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by JONathan on 6/23/2003 at 4:52:08 AM
I share the same "values" when it comes to "colectibles" which is an area I profess marked confusion as to what "value" means. I consider the second case ib point of a machine that has a lot to offer as a ride and, in an esthetic sense to my eyes, have a certain appeal...possibly due to the pride taken in the end product. The craftsmanship of everyday (9 to 5) professional constructors was very high. The bikes they made sure don't fall apart and they stay tuned for a long time. The bikes have character and an individual aspect that isn't apparent in the row after row of new bikes, IMHO, of course. So I don't think the question was "is it collectible?", but rather; "Is it a good product for the price?" The lack of salt on the roads may make a difference in some areas, but around here, the road bike frames can last a very long time, so a 30 year BP ride is not a problem. A LBS, here, sells the older road bikes for over $100 and they don't look as good as that one. I guess it's what the market can bear. Beats me, I'm still trying to make sense of it....JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC: UO-8 posted by Warren on 6/23/2003 at 2:55:30 PM
Ahhh...I think you've hit the nail on the head when you ask "Is it a good product for the price".

Virtually all bikes, especially low-end bikes are exceptional value for the money when you see bikes as both a means of transportation and a recreational activity. This is why I've been commuting four seasons for almost 20 years now.It has enhanced my life in ways that many people don't understand...financially, physically and spiritually.

This is juxtaposed with the collectors market which places value on bikes for their aesthetics, quality, pedigree, scarcity and uniqueness, all at once. The two values are completely unrelated and have no impact upon each other. I think it can be argued that the ugliest, heavy, singlespeed, $5 Huffy is a better value than a really fine $200, quality lightweight. It costs less to buy, less to maintain, and gives you a better workout if you ride it regularly. But who the hell wants more than one of them, even if they have such great intrinsic value?

We buy nicer bikes for the aesthetics and perceived build quality that we read into them. In the end, I'm suggesting that this build quality is sometimes exagerated when it comes to mass produced frames.The "constructeur" heritage has nothing to do with these bikes. The combination of good design, correct materials and well executed production line processes, have allowed companies to make large numbers of good bikes for the dollars spent.I think this encompasses 99% of all bikes we see.

I'm not being critical of your admiration for any of the bikes you've mentioned.I have similar bikes in my own collection. I see bike collecting as a great pastime, obviously. All bikes have real value...I just think it's important to distinguish which kind and how much.

   RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by Rob on 6/23/2003 at 5:49:39 PM
I, more or less, agree with both of you guys...but I think I lean a little more to JONathan's way of looking at it...I'll try not to ramble on too much here, but the "epiphany", if I can use the word in this case, came for me only a couple of years ago, after years of, none or very little, bike riding (in recent years it was the occasional reacreational jaunt on an MTB)...a transit strike started me biking to work, at first on an MTB...a few months later my younger brother let me ride a mid '70's Super Course he had bought for $25CDN($18US)...needed a good cleanup and, I think, one new tire...well, I think I rode the bike for about an hour, and I would say I was 'hooked' within five minutes...I traded him something for it, and then started commuting in good weather on the Super Course...compared to the clunky, heavy, and I'm my view, rather uncomfortable MTB, this road bike was nimble, responsive, and, if you like, elegant...Now I have about 60 lws, of which 20 to 30 are what I would call good bikes,...average to above average production bikes...two Super Courses; mid 70's Gitane TdF, my current favorite; about 1980 Austro-Daimler SLE...quite impressive...(I set my fastest commute time this one this AM with a 53t Campy Nouvo Record crank...38min 3sec ...one unexpected road closure in my favor helped...I count waits a traffic lights in my commute time); late 80' Marinoni, mid-80's Gardin Ultima; several late 70's to mid-80's Nishikis; plus 8 or 9 AO/UE/UO-8's/UE-18'(I don't consider these in my 20 to 30 number); a couple of good Benottos; and others I can't think of at the moment. None are what I would call collectible...but if they were I would likely turn them into "wallhangers"...I have one pristine bike, a rather average German touring bike, mid to late 70's Kalkhoff "Coupe du Monde", which is so nice and so clean, it gets to live upstairs with the cat and the people...I've used it just once on a nice dry sunny summer day...

The vintage lw's, the good average to above average, are an incredible value for the money...some actually cost me nothing...people just throwing them away...I don't consider these collectibles, but they are excellent riders...We must also remember there were a lot of junky ones produced too, but I tend to ignore them...and, mercifully, a lot of them have, probably, long since been scrapped...the Peugeots, though, I seem to have a soft spot for them...I want to try commuting on one...maybe this summer...first, in its production config...then lightened up with better components...if I do, I'll report back with my impressions...

   RE:RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by JONathan on 6/23/2003 at 7:27:39 PM
Wow, Rob! You got some beauts. My longest commute was 43 min. in fair weather. Typically about 50 mins. The UO-8 or AO-8 will be like "night and day" when you change out to alloy stuff. My AO-8 has the refit for sane riding and it rips! I find that my athletic background and obsessive discipline about riding everyday has created a slightly different perspective on the term "Light Weight". Except for being able to go faster quicker, my premier rides, Fuji ("Team" and Specialized "allez SE") there is no advantage to them. My Maino and Bottecchia are hanging relics, except I run the latter occasionally for flatout rips on the flatlands. I'd like to have a heavy, energy-sink, unwieldy bike (of which we have agreed are those that exist below what has been determined to be "low end" (def. earlier) as a comparative example for discussion, but if you have to show the differences to someone, chances are they may not be interested in using the information. What amazes me even more, is how lightly the ol solid rides are discarded as junk. I've done it, but with a bike that was $5, thrashed on dirt roads for years and I had crashed it hard. Too, bad I didn't know that a '40's Hercules 3 sp. was worth anything. Enter the "collector" paradigm, as I call it. Dumb me. The almost new Uo-8s and other similars that end up heaped is beyond my comprehension. I'm with you in that I've done probably more than my bit to keep em out,of landfills...and actually fix them to ride by me or anyone. Here's my working definition for a vintage LW; If when you take a wrench to it there is a favorable response from the part and if the frame looks like it was carefully (craftsmanlike) fastened together, then it is a vintage LW. That UO-8 is awesome. My AO-8 is an accidental, serendipity, the way it rides. I can bust hard or cruise to the distant horizon, makes no difference, the ride is always good....Can't say that for any other bike ("high end", "collectible" or both included). It may be that I'm above the standard mass of competitive riders, but tha's my experience. Look at Model "A"'s, there were tons of those built, too. Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by Dave on 6/23/2003 at 7:55:43 PM
I guess that's the same reasoning why I paid $175 for a '73 U-08 at a LBS. It is in good condition and is a orange color I was able to match and touch-up the frame. The other was it came with a cotterless Maxy crankset and has a great ride.

   RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by Gralyn on 6/23/2003 at 8:32:57 PM
It seems I remember seeing that bike on e-bay. Well, a while back I was looking for one - just to have one for the collection - I couldn't find one around here (and actually, I haven't seen one since then) But anyway, I got one on e-bay. After the shipping I had about $50 in it. I have since put new tires on it and new bar tape. It's a pretty good bike - but not really a ball of fire. I do like it though. I just wish it was in much better condition all around...more 'mint'....but it has many scratches and chipped paint, etc.

    UO-8 posted by John E on 6/23/2003 at 9:08:20 PM
A stock UO-8 has very slow steering, high rolling resistance, and high inertial and static mass. Compared to a high-end frame of the same era, it is no paragon of craftsmanship, either. However, it is extremely comfortable, stable, and practical, and it will indeed run circles around a typical mountain bike or hybrid.

I am spending the big bucks having my Capo repainted, because it is rare and extremely well-made. I really like my UO-8, which is becoming my daily driver, but I still regard it more as cost-effective, pleasant, practical transportation than anything else.

   RE: UO-8 posted by JONathan on 6/23/2003 at 10:49:52 PM
I could not agree more. I suggest, however, that we, or rather someone besides me, who is versed in frame building nuances start a discussion of what "craftmanship" means. Serious pondering has created a distinction...somewhere or at some point....that separates well crafted from pure artistry and attention to ornate details. Perfectionism comes to mind. I'm thinking of the example of woodworking, something I know considerbly more about than bicycle constructing. The older houses have a lot of standard mouldings that were mitered by hand, especially above door frames. That is not a fancy thing, but it demonstrates a relative competence in the craft/trade on the part of the individual who completed the task and moved on to the next door, etc. Nothing artistic, yet very much as much craftmanship as would a artist doing the same task but with much more attention to the esthetics of the result. It demonstrates creativity, to me, when I see an unusual and interesting work and it absolutely has to have excellent craftmanship or it looks rediculous, IMHO. I imagine that bicycle construction could be similar to my rudimentary comparison with woodworking. The trade seemed to go further and further away from hand-work and more and more toward pre-fab, which is too bad in one sense (certainly not monetary) in that to make it look "right" or "finished" a person needs to hand fit the structure...and it's rarer and rarer. I think that is one reason I really respect the "craftmanship" (as well as "artistry" where it may apply) of the vintage LW's. THanks, gents...just my 2...JONathan

   RE:MISC:   UO-8 posted by Tom on 6/24/2003 at 2:08:47 AM
My definition of quality and craftsmanship takes a different approach. First, quality or craftsmanship is not an intangible parameter. It is simply a measure of whether or not the product meets its requirements. Perceived levels of "goodness" have nothing to do with quality. A bicycle is conceived to meet criteria (strength, weight, performance, features, cost, etc.) that are selected to satisfy the needs of a certain portion of the marketplace. It is then the responsibility of the designer to select the proper materials, equipment, geometry and production methods to allow the manufacturer to produce a bicycle with those characteristics. If the manufacturer produces the product as specified by the engineer, the product will have the desired characteristics. The product will then meet the expectations of that section of the marketplace. When this happens, we have a quality product. If it does not meet the original requirements and the market’s expectations, it is not a quality product.

Let’s take a simple example of a Honda Civic and a Ferrari Testa Rosa. The Honda gets you from point A to point to B every day, year in and year out, with little maintenance and good gas mileage, but it’s a bit boring and isn’t very appealing to the opposite sex. The Ferrari gets you there real quick, attracts the opposite sex at the night spots, requires more frequent tune-ups, requires several fill-ups per week and we won’t even mention the insurance costs. Which one is the quality car? I say they both are. The Honda ads promise economical, reliable transportation. Ferrari promises speed, exceptional handling and sex appeal, damn the costs. Both provide what they promised and you expected, with no surprises. Therefore they are both quality vehicles. However, if the Honda only got 15 mpg and the Ferrari took 15 seconds to do 0-60 mph, you’d be rightly ticked-off and you would not have a quality product.

It’s the same for bicycles. Does the product deliver what the ads and salesmen promised, and what you expected. Yes? Then you have a quality product. No? Then you do not have a quality product (unless your expectations were unreasonable). It’s that simple. A bottom of the line Huffy is a quality product if it does what it was designed to do. Conversely, one of those Cinellis with the heavy file marks are not quality bicycles.

Craftsmanship? It’s the same thing. A craftsman is simply someone who performs a craft. Therefore a product has good craftsmanship if it conforms to what they promised and you expected.

So, the European product, in general, was quality product at the start of the bike boom. It met requirements and expectations. Then the Japanese entered the market and raised the bar, so to speak. They started giving better performing equipment and a nicer finish for the low price points. Consequently, they dominated this section of the market by the late 70s and were a quality product,a t that time. By the end of the eighties, they had expanded the approach to the mid price lines and dominated that section too. The larger European firms managed to survive, but only by having their low and mid range bikes manufactured in the Orient.

While the Europeans pretty much owned the high end, even that came under assault. In the later eighties, Shimano dealt Campagnolo several serious blows, but they were smart enough to adapt and recover and have started to regained their previous glory in the lower lines.

Personally, I don’t believe that some Italian sitting in small workshop is any better at designing, assembling and painting a frame than some engineer and robot in Taiwan, or anywhere else in the world. If anything, the European hand manufacturing approach leads to greater variation in the end product and a lot more expense! This variation from the ideal, is undesirable, as one is never quite sure what one might get. I’ve seen lots of Cinellis with rough filing, that you would never see on Japanese product. Last year the LBS had to return several Colnagos for split head tubes. Taiwanese/Japanese bikes returned were zero. The Oriental manufacturers rate highly for providing product that consistently meet requirements. The Europeans aren’t nearly as good.

What I will concede to the collectors and Euro fanatics is aesthetics, quirky designs, limited production quantities and snob appeal. The Europeans will probably always own the high end, but only because the Orientals view the market as too small and unprofitable. In general, the high end European marques produce quality product, but don’t go saying their quality or craftsmanship is better than a Japanese or Taiwanese company. If that Oriental company decided to copy a Cinelli or Colnago in every detail, they could do it, and do it more consistently, at a lower price.

Anyone who has ever ridden a Miyata Pro or Team will know what I’m talking about. They had all the strength, lightness, and performance of the top line Euro bikes. The lugwork was flawless and the paint application was superior. They just didn’t have a fancy paint scheme, snob appeal and as large an impact on your wallet.

Regarding JONathans request for a description of craftmanship, I don't think it is necessary. A lot of what people equate to craftmanship on high end bikes is really just a function of extra time and cost. They are features and characteristics that any builder could provide, if he chose to. No geometry, feature, material or manufacturing method is beyond the capability of any manufactrurer who is willing to spend the necessary time and money. What would be more relevant would be a list of what chartacteristics were expected for a given market sector, during a specific time period.

My bottom line is that any bicycles that meets its design requirements and customer expectations is a quality product. Having said that, there are not very ‘Nuff said.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by: bernie on 6/22/2003 at 3:51:06 PM
ran across some old chainrings made in england..some appear to be 1/2" x 3/32".some 1/2" x 1/8".?maybe track rings?.
markings on the rings have the letters "E W Z D" and what looks like a B inside a crude cross emblem almost looking like a bishops miter..any ideas who made these and if theres a value?thanks in advance..email me direct or post here

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by JONathan on 6/22/2003 at 6:18:47 PM
How many holes for the crank spider? That logo sounds a bit familiar. I have a bunch of chainrings in a plastic tub. I can look. Are you sure they are for a bicycle? A lot of stuff besides bicycles were chain-driven. Possibly German? I have an obscure handsaw that has something like that logo, too. Is the "B" the only letter? Interesting discovery you ran across. I hope we can figure it out....Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by JONathan on 6/22/2003 at 6:21:42 PM
Of course...the other letters you gave in the post! Blame my glasses. OK, I will look at that big ol saw and see. Very intersesting!...JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by Tom on 6/22/2003 at 7:20:44 PM
Bernie, what a strange coindence. Just yesterday morning I had a friend bring me an old English frame to remove the crankset and headset, and re-paint it. The crankset has the same symbol you described, but the letters are E, W, A and T, with the B inside the miter. The bottom bracket cups were stamped Bayliss Wiley. The spindle was stamped with a circle that had BW within it.

Normally, I would assume the bottom bracket and crankarms to be from the same manufacturer. The E, B and W, which are common to both examples, may stand for England, Bayliss Wiley, but I'm guessing. If so, it's possible that the remaining two letters are a model or date code. However, it's curious as to why the spindle does not use the same symbol. Again, I'm just guessing. THey may be different manufacturers.

Can anyone help me identify the frame? I tried to get the name off the decals but they are incomplete. The first four letters are "Celt", with three or four more obliterated letters, written in script. Curiously, it is a single decal on the top of the down tube, instead of two on the sides. There is also a tubing (?)decal at the top of the seat tube that appears to read "Guarantes for frame" and is superimposed over a fleur-de-lis.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by Warren on 6/22/2003 at 10:52:55 PM
Those sound like Williams cranks to me. The bottom two letters, beneath the "cross" are the date...ZD is 1963. EW is the intials of Mr Williams, I believe. Have a look at http://www.classicrendezvous.com./British/Williams_nmbrs.htm

Williams was the largest manufacturer of British cranks...they made them for countless bike makers. I just purchased a Williams C-1000, which is a lightweight racers crank in a 6 1/2" size. The perfect track crank. I always save these parts for rainy day projects

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by bernie on 6/23/2003 at 3:08:59 AM
thanks for all that replied i really appreciate the help..
sprockets are steel..3 holes spaced much smaller than i have seen such as on older raleighs or french bikes using stronglight or nervar..(HAVENT HAD TIME TO MEASURE BOLT CIRCLE YET SORRY) sprockets are stamped "made in england".i,m assuming bike related from where they came from.(obsolete out of business bike shop with no hint of any motorized equipment)..all i have are stamped above the miter "E W " and below, if it is a date code, "Z B" or "D".

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by bernie on 6/23/2003 at 4:04:58 AM
heres a link to a pic of the trademark..hope that helps..cant hurt huh??


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by Tom on 6/23/2003 at 1:22:07 PM
Warren, it would appear you are correct. Thank-you for the assistance in identifying and dating the crankset. Now I can inform my friend that his bicyle probably dates from 1954.

Bernie, FYI, that is the same logo that appears on my crankset. Thxs for the pic.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   who made these sprockets? posted by: bernie on 6/22/2003 at 3:51:06 PM
ran across some old chainrings made in england..some appear to be 1/2" x 3/32".some 1/2" x 1/8".?maybe track rings?.
markings on the rings have the letters "E W Z D" and what looks like a B inside a crude cross emblem almost looking like a bishops miter..any ideas who made these and if theres a value?thanks in advance..email me direct or post here

AGE / VALUE:   help id posted by: Ray Weber on 6/22/2003 at 1:20:14 PM
The serial no. for the Iver Johnson appears to be 608722. I am not positive on the 6 and 8. Ray Weber

AGE / VALUE:   help id posted by: Ray Weber on 6/22/2003 at 1:02:37 PM
I need help identifying the model and year of my Iver Johnson with 26x 1.375 Goodyear rib tires for hook edge rim, new departure model d hub, rear axle adjusters and a completely captured front axle that must be threaded out of one side, cocked and threaded back to remove the wheel. Any help/sources are most appreciated.Ray Weber

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   help id posted by sam on 6/22/2003 at 10:01:27 PM
That size of tyre was used pre-war,can't say when they stopped using it.

FOR SALE:   Motorized bicycles posted by: Jeremy on 6/21/2003 at 5:36:56 PM
Convert your bike motorized! Check out CaliCruzer.com for some cool custom motorized bikes. 48cc gas two-stroke, chain drven with a manual clutch for a real motorcycle feel. Complete bikes and motor kits available at CaliCruzer.com

   RE:FOR SALE:   Motorized bicycles posted by Wings on 6/22/2003 at 9:06:08 PM
That defeats the entire reason for a BIKE!

   Why posted by sam on 6/22/2003 at 10:06:30 PM
Why? Because they are cool and fun.But they do take away what makes bikes what they are---the need to pedal.If I had only one bike I'd never put a motor on it---but as we know ,we all have several bikes so one with a motor is just another toy for when you want to play with it----sam

   RE:FOR SALE:   Motorized bicycles posted by sam on 6/22/2003 at 10:09:00 PM
PS:there is a group for motorized bikes ---and this an't it!

   RE:RE:FOR SALE:   Motorized bicycles posted by luke on 6/24/2003 at 10:11:19 PM
play it again sam..................

FOR SALE:   French made Hosteler Frame for sale posted by: Bryan Masone on 6/20/2003 at 1:50:18 PM
I have a French made Hosteler 10-speed racing bike frame (medium looking size) if anyone wants it. Cool orange color.

   RE:FOR SALE:   French made Hosteler Frame for sale posted by Walter on 7/8/2003 at 7:06:13 PM
I just did a search on Hosteler, French Bike, as you state, never saw one before, don't know, if they were real good; found a white one, toe clips, looked decent. Did not see this mentioned anywhere else in this forum.

AGE / VALUE:   Rough Capo frame on e-bay posted by: Mike Slater on 6/20/2003 at 1:47:25 PM
Intact decals, crankset - pretty rough.


    Rough Capo frame on e-bay posted by John E on 6/20/2003 at 2:50:08 PM
Thanks for posting, Mike. That is the first Capo I have ever seen on eBay! I suspect that one is a 1960 30th anniversary model, like John Nielsen's; I have asked the seller for the serial number. That is also the first time anyone has been able to identify the lugwork; Harald Cap had told me that Otto Cap custom-made them.

If anyone wants to put together an unusual, great-riding road classic on a tight budget, this might be a good opportunity. Correct original equipment would include Campag. high flange hubs, Campag. Gran Sport derailleurs, and Weinmann 999 brakes.

   parts for Capo frameset posted by John E on 6/20/2003 at 2:58:48 PM
I urge anyone bidding on the Capo frameset to bid also on the Weinmann 999 brake calipers (erroneously identified as late 1960s/early 1970s; they are actually 10 years older)and Campag. Gran Sport (erroneously identified as Valentino) front derailleur which were obviously removed from it. (Use "view sellers other auctions" feature on eBay.)

   RE: Rough Capo frame on e-bay posted by Mike Slater on 6/20/2003 at 5:03:16 PM
Yeah - quite a shock seeing this pop up. I always search for "Capo", and nothing has ever come up till now.

AGE / VALUE:   Read Tool Organization -- half way down!!! posted by: Wings on 6/20/2003 at 7:17:08 AM
Jonathan --
I responded to your tool post and it is about half way down this thread under "Tool Organization"!


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Read Tool Organization -- half way down!!! posted by JONathan on 6/20/2003 at 8:15:49 PM
That's unreal! Pretty sophisticated approach to solving a multivariant problem of storage and use functioning to address broad spectrum requirements. I love that approach. The low-level (positive) flexibility is hard to achieve. I got my idea from the bear-proof garabage can boxes that I saw in driveways in the Sierras. Between yours and John E.'s descriptions, I've got some great ideas to go with in the garage. I'm stopping by a True Value store to pick up a bunch of assorted hanger brackets for 1/4" pegboard at 25 cents each on a closeout sale. What luck. Thanks, JONathan

WANTED:   Cox Minibikes??? posted by: Jason on 6/20/2003 at 5:18:08 AM
Well I dont want one, I have one. A cox minibike that is.
What I need is information on them.
If anyone knows anything about them, pleease help me.

I'm sure its worth a fortune and I'm sure someone knows about it.

AGE / VALUE:   RIH posted by: ned on 6/20/2003 at 3:56:20 AM
anyone ever hear about an RIH marque?this frame is reynolds 531 with campy dropouts. this is all i know about it,from europe i'm sure thats it no idea of tome frame or originof this marque.any ideas?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   RIH posted by Tom on 6/20/2003 at 1:51:23 PM
I know that it's a very old Dutch marque that started out in the 1920's. I vaguely recall a road test in a issue of Bicycling, but haven't been able to find it, yet.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   RIH posted by ned on 6/20/2003 at 10:30:37 PM
as i suspected .this particular frame is being offered as new old stock by Cyclus Renessance and they are in Holland.it seems to be a very cool frame.just as my lotus an unusual piece of time.thanks for the info..

MISC:   Help me ID this bike posted by: Ray on 6/19/2003 at 4:41:24 PM
I have been asking around and now I am up to this site for help. I purchased this track bike from a garage sale this past weekend. Pretty light and had some crap components on it but I will take care of that. Ignore the seat, stem and pedals as they are current replacements. The handlebars, frame, headset, hubs and chainring and crank appear to be original. The hubs are BSA and obviously the chainring is also. Look at the head tube lugs and tell me what you think. I am thinking either a BSA or Pop Brennan track bike. Your thoughts are welcome.

   RE:MISC:   Help me ID this bike posted by Warren on 6/20/2003 at 2:21:54 AM
I see the words "garage sale" and swallow hard. I'd hate to be rude and ask you how much you paid but I suspect the crankset could fetch a couple of hundred on ebay.

It doesn't look like the few BSA's I've seen. I seem to recall keyhole cutouts on those lugs. BSA was the popular steel crankset for top tier track bikes so it could have been made by any custom maker including Pop Brennan.

A stunning bike in very good original condition...congrats

   RE:RE:MISC:   Help me ID this bike posted by Ray on 6/20/2003 at 2:18:16 PM
Warren, I did get lucky and paid a very reasonable garage sale price. I did not get it for $5 but then again I did not pay over $100. Too bad no one has a site that has the history or lineage of lugging. Perhaps it is time to start one.

   RE:MISC:   Help me ID this bike posted by Tom on 6/21/2003 at 4:18:29 PM
I am not a British track bike expert, so please take my comments with a grain of salt.

Initially, the lugwork reminded me of a friend's Claud Butler. While they are similar, but I don't think this is a Claud Butler, because the overall execution is not there. The rear dropout tangs are not filed to blend smoothly with the seat stays, the stay ends do not appear to be finished, the eyes at the top of the seat stays are very basic and top of the seat lug is flat. To me, this says entry level track bike, not something from a prestigious marque or custom builder.

Having said that, there are some things I find very curious. It appears as though the builder has brazed the headset cups to the head tube. To me, this is probably the most distinguished feature. The head lugs also appear to have been nicely thinned out. These features fly in contradiction of my observations from the previous paragraph.

Quite frankly, I am puzzled by these contradictions. Perhaps the original buyer bought the frame in some semi-finished state from a framebuilder who had fallen on hard times. It could also be a one-off attempt by an amateur framebuilder, or the work of an apprentice. Regardless, I think it is a unique bike and a nice find.

Attempts to identify bicyles based on lugwork would seem to be a futile exercise. The vast majority of builders used stsndard, unmodified lugs. Some of the more prestigious builders modified their lugs, to make their work more marketable. However, as a particular design gained appeal, other builders would start introducing similar designs. For instance, your lugs appear to be a variation on the Claud Butler design. Variations on this design can also be found on Ephgrave, Gilliot, Reg Harris and even Rudge. There are probably only a couple dozen manufacturers whose frames are truly distinguishable based on the lugwork.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Help identifying old Carlton posted by: Brian L. on 6/19/2003 at 2:54:14 PM
Just received in trade last night with Josh (Thanks!). I'm guessing late 50's, early 60's. Non-original paint. Semi-curly lugs. No braze-ons except pump pegs and tabs mid-seat stay for rack/fenders. Bullet-shaped plugs at seat and chainstays. Stamped drop outs. Sturmey 3-speed. Airlite front hub with wing nuts. Steel rims. Courier levers and calipers with GB stem and Maes bars (nice deep drop). Unlabeled steel cottered crank (Williams?). Oiler in BB. Serial #D757. Cool Art Nouveauish vertical Carlton script in raised vertical letters in lieu of head badge.

Any ideas? Couldn't find anything of help in a quick web search.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Help identifying old Carlton posted by Brian L. on 6/20/2003 at 3:45:26 PM
Some corrections: 4-sp SA FW 56 1(0?) Sturmey hub in what appears to be good order. Trigger shifter was 3-speed.

MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by: Bryant on 6/19/2003 at 11:55:56 AM
I rode into work today and noticed a strange noise coming from my rear wheel. when i got in and checked it out, it seemed to be coming from the freewheel. It sounds like a large ball bearing rolling around in the freewheel when I turn it. the hub feels fine and spins smoothly, and the frewheel spins fine, just makes that weird noise. I'm taking the wheel home tonight to check it out. Has anyone had anything like this before and could you tell me what it was??

   RE:MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by Tom Findley on 6/19/2003 at 1:18:46 PM
I took a Huret freewheel apart. It had 40 plus ballbearings in it, each about 1/16" in diameter.There was no way to put them back in right.

Try dripping oil in the gap between the moveable outer part, and fixed inner part. This may quiet it. If the noise continues, replace the freewheel with a name brand like Sun or Shimano.

   RE:MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by JONathan on 6/19/2003 at 3:32:37 PM
Hello, Bryant. I'd remove the freewheel if possible and check for any debris. The chain "pie" disk spoke protector is a suspect, if you have one of those. I have replaced the bearings by using a reel lube to hold the bearings in place. If you leave the tube on the workbench overnight, the viscosity will be thick enough to hold the bearings. The trick is to tease the two pawls back into position inside the drum. I've had them emit a loud scraping sound when the bearings are dry. Horrible sound, it is. If the noise appeared suddenly, the chances are that it's debris or a damaged bearing, pawl or loose outer race that's permitting excessive play. If it is real loose, the bearings could really sound off on coasting. Good luck...JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by Rob on 6/19/2003 at 5:37:10 PM
I concur with JONathan...I've had sticking pawls on old freewheels or strange freewheel centred noises at one time or another...a broken chain protector on an MTB drove me crazy for two days before I figured out what it was...Other than that my first thought would be a sticking pawl...try getting some oil in, or maybe WD-40 first to loosening things up. If that doesn't do it, I would suspect a broken pawl...you could take it apart (typically, I can never remember, at first, which way to turn the hardware holding it together...clockwise...counterclockwise???), but used freewheels are so cheap....

     Noisy freewheel posted by John E on 6/19/2003 at 5:43:40 PM
Although I have rebuilt freewheels in the distant past, I have not done so for some time. My normal maintenance and cure for freewheels is a liberal (until it drips freely out the other side) application of 3-in-1 or lightweight motor oil. Messy, but easier than playing with the bearings and pawls. Incidentally, I found SunTours to be among the easiest freewheels to rebuild.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by JONathan on 6/20/2003 at 8:56:06 PM
Hello, Rob. On your freewheel outer bearing adjuster ring. It is a left-hand thread. The "arrow" points to the direction of tightening! My degree of ego-centrism hand me turning the ring counterclockwise, thnking the "arrow" was indicating the loosening direction. I realized my mistake and then went clockwise and it spun right loose. I keep the outer and inner bearings in separate little bags...don't mix 'em. I replace the bearings if even one looks bad. I agree fully with John E.m rthat it's better to replace the whole freewheel if the oil-soak method fails to solve the problem. However, I must admit, it was interesting to take the bike down to the last moving part, just to have the experience and understanding of what is going on and howw. Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by JONathan on 6/20/2003 at 9:03:16 PM
Oops, sorry John E. I guess it was Rob who mentioned the fact that replacing the freewheel is a cheap solution. Goota keep the post straight!...JONatrhan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by Douglas on 6/20/2003 at 11:45:33 PM
I remember the direction to open a freewheel this way. Every time I'm about to do it I ask myself if it's worth my time,then picture a clock and have my answer(clockwise).

   RE:MISC:   Noisy freewheel posted by Hallyx on 6/23/2003 at 6:48:08 AM
I've had to rebuild two freewheels because they came apart (lockring unscrewed). With a little patience, it was a lot easier than it looked at first. No trouble setting the bearings (in grease); no problem slipping the cog block onto the fw body over the pawls.

Saw two different ways of "springing" a pawl. I never knew they were not meant to be rebuilt.

Replacing an entire fw is not cheap to me at $20, assuming I can find one with cogs that meet my needs, which is not always easy.

If you're in the habit of throwing away noisy, dirty or worn frewheels, drop me a line. I'll give them a good home.

WANTED:   Schwinn Paramount 40's 40's TRACK posted by: ron on 6/19/2003 at 11:21:10 AM
any condition, thanks.

   RE:WANTED:   Schwinn Paramount 40's 40's TRACK posted by Fred on 6/19/2003 at 10:37:21 PM
Me too! I'll take two.