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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   supermaxy cranks posted by: luke on 6/29/2003 at 11:51:17 PM
thank you jon,
the le tour will hopefully get treated fairly,in the shop
which new 2003 trek,s bike off the shelve,s!!!
the park tool is a great thing. forget it,im buying the
park tool,no i dont want a stranger tuneing my velo!!!!
i'd rather spend my money wise'ly and learn something,
thank;s for your help,

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by: luke on 6/29/2003 at 9:27:13 PM
hey velo lovers,
i would like to know how to remove cranks from a 1980
le tour.cranks are 3-piece ''super maxy''.
i removed the dust covers,the nuts and was confused
as to get the crank arms and the whole thing out.
i plan on restoring the ''letour'' and am fortune't
enough to work at a place where i can blast,and bake on
a new coat of paint. any help wiould be great.
all i know is a hammer is not the answer!!!
thanks and happy 4th of july!!!!!!!!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 10:21:54 PM
Unscrew the dust cap, if it hasn't already come off on the road. Take a 14mm socket (thin-walled) and remove the nut or bolt counter-clockwise direction. I then use a Parks extractor tool which threads into the crankarm where the dust cap threads. Turn the sleeve until it is secure inside the crankarm axle opening. Make sure that before you do this, that the bolt inside the sleeve of the tool is backed out to the last couple of threads. After you have the sleeve firmly fastened to the arm (make sure to go easy so as to not strip the threads on the crankarm), turn the bolt clockwise with a wrench until it begins to push against the end of the spindle. Check to make sure it isn't cocked funny, hold on to the crankarm and then continue tightened the bolt. It pushes against the spindle end and exerts an outward pull on the crankarm as it threads further along inside the crankarm.Adter the crankarm pops loose, back the bolt out a bit and slide the crankarm off the spindle. The tool is essential if you are dealing with a set of cranks you care anything about. Other make-shift methods are only going to have a great chance of either damaging the crank or yourself or both. If you aren't planning on doing this procedure often, and don't enjoy the mechanical aspects of bicycles, I'd take it to a LBS and have the mechanic pull it for a modest fee. I've been too dumb to do that, so I've removed my own all along. That Parks tool is my best investment in bike tools. There are a few different sizes, so make sure you get the coirrect size for your cranks. They aren't cheap tools, but they last forever. Goos luck...JONathan
WEAR GOGGLES or a full-face shield. The latter has been another great investment, and not just for bike work. $13 at Sears.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 10:30:35 PM
To make a tough job a bit easier; tip the bike on its side and squirt a little (very little) WD-40 inside the crankarm opening. Do this only if the crankarm is a tough one. The reason being, WD-40 requires a lot of cleaning to get off the spindle. You want to avoid having a lubricant like it, coated onto the spindle when you reassemble. I don't lub any faces of the spindle. Why would lub be of useful purpose on a part that is supposed to fit snug all the time? You may want to seek a second opinion about that, but that's my 2 c'c....JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Gralyn on 6/30/2003 at 2:35:21 AM
If you're going to tinker on these old bikes - you absolutely have to get one of those crank removal tools. I couldn't imagine how I could get along without it.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Tom on 6/30/2003 at 3:39:01 AM
One other important precaution is to ALWAYS re-install the dust caps on the crankarms. Often, people leave them off to look cool, like the racers. Well, the dirt can pack into those threads real tight, especially on the drive side where oil from the chain can get on them and attract the dirt. Then, the next time you try to remove the cranks, the removal tool may not thread in properly and you'll damage the threads. I've seen this happen to way too many people. They didn't look very cool when they sheepishly brought the bike in, to have the threads chased or the crankarm replaced.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Wings on 6/30/2003 at 6:31:04 AM
I replaced the cranks three times today until I got one that worked just right. I use that tool all of the time and they are very reasonable.

I always put a light coat of grease (wipe it down) bifore sliding the crank arm on. I may want to remove it someday. I have only found one crank arm out 100's and 100's of bikes that would not come off and that was because the alloy threads were stripped so the crank puller could not do its job. I put some grease on the bolts also.

After a couple hundred miles or less of riding the bolts should be tightened again! Do this as standard practice.d

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Wings on 6/30/2003 at 6:36:24 AM
My last sentence of my last post should read:
..."After a couple of hundred miles or less of riding the bolts shoud be tightened again! Do this as a standard practice (tighten the bolts one time again after the first 100 miles. I usually check them again each year on the spring tune up.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Tom on 6/30/2003 at 5:11:36 PM
Every bicyle maintenance book I've read advises against applying lubrication to the spindle tapers before installing the crankarms. The stated reason is that the lubricant can allow the soft, aluminum crankarm to be pushed too far onto the spindle. If it get pushed on to the point when the spindle end is flush with the square hole, then the crank cannot stay tight. I can't say I've ever seen this situation, but way take the risk?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: crank removel posted by wARREN on 7/1/2003 at 4:13:30 PM
The debate of whether to grease axles or not was thoroughly thrashed by the heavyweights on the CR list this year. As you say Tom, MOST books advise against it...however Campag themselves did it for a short period of time. Other well respected mechanics stated that they had done it for decades and never had a problem...others swore the opposite.

Having said all that, I never grease the axle tapers. Make sure they are clean and a proper fit.There are some axle tapers that are diffent than others...Campag and Suntour Pro/Sprint are two of them. If they are a good fit then you won't have any alloy/steel oxidation issues.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: crank removel posted by JONathan on 7/1/2003 at 7:41:01 PM
Always a compromise of factors. How about the "best of both" scenario? If two adjacent flats of the spindle taper lightly lubricated and the other adjacent two flats (opposing) are cleaned to perfection would that not achieve the desired traits of; 1) ease of extraction and 2) proper seat with zero play? I've never tried it, although I've read about it. The corrosion of dissimilar metals in contact with each other is a time dependent issue, as are all chemical reactions (not counting catalized rx's) such that a normal maintenance (once a year for me on the BB) interval would not pose a problem,...I think. I don't know anything fotr sure. Speculation for discussion is my aim....I error on the side of caution by fitting the cranks lub-free, as I've had several cases of sloppy-crank syndrome (my term) such that I'll let the tools get a workout instead of knees. Does anyone have a torque value for crankarm bolts. I have no clue, except I apply the "two-finger rule" on the wrench so as to avoid stripping the threads out or shearing the bolt. Torque settings for a vintage LW? Somehow that seems odd, like specifying how many turns to sharpen a pencil....Cheers, JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Tom on 7/2/2003 at 3:27:57 AM
JONathan, 18-20 ft-lbs should safely cover most situations. The actual torque requirements are a function of the materials, thread standard and engagement length. In the case of vintage lightweights there are only 2 common thread standards, and the variation in enagagemant lengths and most steel materials is not sufficient to affect the recommended torque greatly. However, if you're using something exotic like titanium or aluminum, definitely follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

Warren, I assume that when you cautioned about differences in spindle tapers, you are refering to difference in the width and length of the tapers,as opposed to the angle of taper? I only recall one common crankset that did not use a 2 degree taper, and that was the SR Silver which used a 3 degree taper. Were there others that I'm not aware of?

In my experience, the difference in the taper angle of individual spindles due to manufacturing tolerances is greater than the average difference between makes. Unless the the spindle is out-of-tolerance, the crank will seat itself during initial use and should be fine after you re-tighten things following the first short ride. Regardless of the perceived fit, re-tighteneing after an initial, short ride is a good practice.

Regarding poor fit due to taper width and length, this is quite common when mixing brands (and sometimes even when mixing lines within brands) but is easy to check. If the back of the crank is bottoming, or is close to bottoming on the ends of the taper flats, then it is incorrect. It is also incorrect if the spindle end is flush, or close to flush with the bottom of the extractor hole.

Even with a good fit between spindle and crankarm there is one other case where it loosens up and the reason is not immediately obvious. When a crankarm has been re-installed several times, the end of the spindle will push the soft aluminum into a burr at the end of the spindle. Eventually, this burr will become large enough to prevent the crankarm from seating properly and even though it feels tight, it will become loose when you ride. This problem is easily remedied by using a fine narrow file to remove the burr.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by JONathan on 7/2/2003 at 8:22:57 AM
Tom, you have the best posts! I'm serious. Thanks for the torque values. Thanks for taking the time to define the critical elements behind the topic of concern. I have learned a great deal about bicycles from your posts....JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Rob on 7/2/2003 at 6:00:55 PM
Yes, Tom...I would like to add my thanks, too...I learned a lot from your posts...Please keep up the good work...:)

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by Warren on 7/2/2003 at 11:58:48 PM
Tom...I have no ideas about numbers but I have to assume that it is the width and length. These affect the depth to which a crank will slide onto an axle and change the Q factor. Campag and Suntour will stay farther out on a standard spindle.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by George Summers on 7/5/2003 at 4:13:10 AM
When fitting cotterless cranks I like to do the following:

1. Grease the tapers, I figure you get a more intimate fit.
2. The grease prevents leaving an aluminium streak on the taper when the crank is removed. That aluminium streak is of course aluminium being removed from the crank, which in time with many removals will in my opinion destroy the fit a bit.
3. Before removing the crank, mark the taper and the crank with a felt pen. Then when you re-assemble the crank align the marks so that the crank goes on the same way it was on before. Nothing is machined perfectly, so all four tapers are never identical and if you put the crank on different than the way it already was you will be destroying the intimate fit that you had before. Think of the crank "molding" itself to the axle. You are putting a relatively soft metal onto a very hard steel. Think of the crank made of putty and you can get the idea. Once "molded" you want to put it back on the same way, otherwise you will always be "re-molding" the crank.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by George Summers on 7/5/2003 at 4:52:57 AM
Just a mild addition and correction. In point #1 the reason for wanting a more intimate fit is that the crank will stay on much better with less loosening problems than with a friction fit without the use of lubricant. In point #2 I should have said the grease helps to prevent leaving an aluminium streak. It doesn't do it perfectly in practice. In point #3 that "molding" is of course at a microscopic level.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by George Summers on 7/5/2003 at 6:00:37 AM
Here's what I think is a good article on crank installation. Select and copy this URL into the address bar of your browser.


VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   22 year old Bianchi for sale posted by: Mark C on 6/29/2003 at 7:58:58 PM
I need to "thin out my herd" in my garage. I sold an old Raleigh this week. With much hesitation, I'm going to try to sell my old Bianchi.

I've read a few posts from John E that sounds like he has an identical model. It is a 1981 Bianchi(patent # on Campy NR rear derailleur) "Nuova Racing". It has the original "anthrecite" paint, which is a dark brown/grey metallic. I have all of the original parts for it. Campy derailleurs and shifters, Ofmega LF hubs, headset and bottom bracket. 3 TTT stem and handlebars. The cotterless crank is embossed "Bianchi". On a scale of 10, I'd give this bike an 8.5. It rides like a dream.

I've greatly enjoyed reading and learning from this forum. I wanted to give the you guys first-dibs. No reasonable offer will be refused. Should a not get any responses within two weeks, I'll try e-bay.



    Bianchi for sale posted by John E on 6/30/2003 at 2:02:19 AM
Yes, mine is very similar, although my cranks are labeled Ofmega, instead of Bianchi. ("Bianchi" cranks of that era are indeed Ofmegas.) In contrast, my TTT stem is labeled, "Bianchi."

Please post your frame size and location, Mark. If anyone wants a fast, responsive, fun frame which is also practical, comfortable, and not overly twitchy, this is it! There are no eyelets and there is no mudguard clearance, but it is a great fair-weather toy.

   RE: Bianchi for sale posted by Mark C on 6/30/2003 at 11:54:05 PM
Oops! Please forgive me for not giving frame stats!

Top tube is 57 cm center to center (c to c), seat tube = 57 CM c to c, and the downtube is 63 cm c to c.

There are single eyelets on the fork and rear stays. I agree that there isn't much clearance for much more than a 700 by 32 tire, with mud-guards in place. There aren't any fenders on it now.


Mark C

AGE / VALUE:   Centurion made by Windsor? posted by: John S on 6/29/2003 at 7:04:29 PM
My earlier inquiry got buried by an interesting Sekine discussion. So another try.

I picked up a frame that looks like one of those Cinelli-inspired Windsors. Says made in Mexico on a sticker. But it has Centurion stickers on it too, and they look like they may belong. Anybody have some Centurion history? John E?

John S.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Centurion made by Windsor? posted by Tom on 6/29/2003 at 8:36:11 PM
John, is it possible that Centurion is simply the model name for your Windsor bicycle and has no connection with the Centurion brand? The Windsors that I have seen usually have the model name on the top tube. Many of the lesser models also incorporated the Cinelli-like stays and chrome head lugs with three holes. I know for a fact that the Super Carrera did, because I'm looking at one right now. Windsor's line-up in the late 70's included at least 11 models. What I have been able to track down are: AM1 Road Professional, AM3 Carerra, AM4 Track Professional, AM5 International, AM6T Touring Elite, AM6C Competition, , AM8 Track Standard, AM10 Super Carrera. A Centurion model could be one of the other 3, or from some other period.

Centurion was originally a registered trademark owned by Wil-Go Imports and later by Western States Import Co, both of whom had the bicycles manufactured to their specs by various Japanese companies. I double chaecked to see if these were the Windsor importers, but my documentation shows only West Coast Cysle Supply Co. and Alpha Cycle & Supply Co. as the Windsor importers during the 70's and 80's.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Centurion made by Windsor? posted by Tom on 6/29/2003 at 8:57:00 PM
Darn, I need to proof read things more carefully before I hit the submit button! While most Windsors had the model name on the top tube, the early models had it on the down tube in large block letters. The background was a lighter glow-in-the-dark type of material. Windsor appeared on the head tube and seat tube.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Centurion made by Windsor? posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 10:53:58 PM
Hello, John S. Try this option:www.cyclingforums.com/showthread/t-24345.html+nishiki+le+mans&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
There are two pages! Be sure to check the second page (click upper left above the start). I, too got mixed up. I thought Nishiki made the "Le Mans", or was somehow linke to the name. I have a Centurion "Le Mans" that's real clean. What I got was that Centurion is just a name, that they didn't make bikes. Am I mistaken, guys? Just what I've absorbed from my rather confusing array of descriptions. Then, there was the "name" controversy that created a problem, I believe. Anyway, that site has about as much info as I would ever want to know about my "Le Mans" or Centurions of any type!Cheers, JONathan

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Need Rear Hub Repair Advice posted by: J. Collins on 6/29/2003 at 5:41:46 PM
Good Morning and need some advice -- took apart the rear hub for new bearings and a good regreasing. Mistakenly took both sides off at the same time (wasn't thinking and did not read the instructions in the repair book on that issue until TOO late). I have all of the pieces and parts, spacers, cone nuts, lock nuts, etc. The freewheel is off too. I have the bearings nicely adjusted for QR fit. Here's the question -- I did not measure the left side or the drive side or count threads before I took it apart. Not sure before I put the freewheel back on if I have it properly back on the axle with the right lengths on the respective sides of the hub. Did the same thing in the front, but the fix was easy -- make it absolutely symetrical. Should I just set the wheel in the frame and see how it centers in the back between the frame? I know I need the freewheel gears etc. to line up well with the frame and front. The good news? This will be the last time I take both sides apart instead of leaving one fixed. My first time taking the back apart. Except for this mental mess-up it has gone well. Thanks for any advice that might be forthcoming.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Need Rear Hub Repair Advice posted by john on 6/29/2003 at 8:53:05 PM
JC:I would take the axel only and thread cone, spacers, locknuts that go on the INSIDE of the drop out on the freewheel side. Hold this assembly against in INSIDE of the dropout and adjust until you have sufficient axel threads on the OUTSIDE of the dropout to accomdate the axel nut and lock washer. If you've taken off the detrailer, remount before you begin. Once you've done this,put the axel back in the wheel, adjust the offside for proper bearing clearance, then mount the wheel in the frame making sure you can accomodate the outside nuts/washers on both sides. If everything looks OK, dismount the wheel, put on the freewheel, and remount the wheel assembly. Ive done this before and everything seemed to work fine after

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Need Rear Hub Repair Advice posted by john on 6/29/2003 at 8:55:55 PM
addenda: make sure that the outside nuts thread completely on the outside of the axels. Actually the axel should protrude a bit. If it doesn't, the nut isn't gripping with its full strength and that's not good!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Need Rear Hub Repair Advice posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 11:13:40 PM
I learned two lessons. One was to examine the setip carefully, before tearing into it. Take measurements of critical distances, such as the freewheel small cog to the driveside chainstay. That's an importnat dimension, as I've painfully discovered. The second is not critical to any chances of successful return to normal, but it is very nice; have a spare or identical component (in situ, if possible) that you can reference during the reconstruction. I'm blessed with bikes that fortunately always seem to have a lot of slop in what can fit between the dropouts. I look for firm clamp on both sides; a wheel that centers in line with the seat-tube and on the same plane as the front triangle, and clearance of the small cog when the chain is engaged on it. I always say, "If it worked right before I took it apart, and I didn't lose or break anything, it necessarily has to be able to work after I put it together...but we're talking vintage LW's here, so I really can't be sure of anything....JONathan

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Need Rear Hub Repair Advice posted by Ken on 7/1/2003 at 6:19:14 PM
One comforting thing is, if you put everything back in the same order, you can't change the spacing. The only way you can move the freewheel closer to the dropout is to lose a spacer -or I guess you could leave the bearings out:). Another comforting thing is that you don't have to get the axle perfectly centered, just make sure it isn't too off center for the QR to close. (Note to john: He said QR.) Sheldon says you can get by without any axle in the dropout, although I bet his lawyer wouldn't recommend it. If you did shake all your parts up in a bag and put them back wrong, you'd still have the same spacing, except the rim would no longer center, and then you'd know when you put the freewheel on...

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Le Tour, circa 1972 - 1974 posted by: Caren on 6/29/2003 at 4:26:03 PM
Hi, I have my original Schwinn LeTour hanging in my garage and we're moving. How do I find value and/or buyer?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Le Tour, circa 1972 - 1974 posted by Kevin K on 6/29/2003 at 5:30:49 PM
Hi Caren. 1974 was the first year for the Panasonic built Schwinn LeTour. Some bikes were introduced in late 1973. To date I've purchased 4 1974 Letours. 2 were nice, 2 were so so. I've never paid over $10 for one. If your bike is mint I've seen these bring ok money on ebay but most of the time these bikes are a no sale. You've had the bike almost 30 years now.Possibly you should consider holding onto it. If you are set on selling the easiest method is in your front yard with a for sale sign. If the bike is mint you might try ebay. Shipping / packaging usually kills a sale on these though you might get lucky. Most 1974's were Kool Lemon. Next Opaque Blue, then Opaque Red. Hope this helps. Good Luck, Kevin

   Kevin is right posted by Tom Findley on 6/30/2003 at 11:45:24 AM
When a bike only gets the starting bid, or less than $50, I have had sellers walk away from the auction. One seller tried to tell me the UPS shipping for the bike would be $75. From shipping them to the painter, I know the usual fee is $22-$40.

MISC:   Tange Motocross posted by: andym on 6/29/2003 at 12:33:15 AM
Picked up another Schwinn "super sport today,it's the second one this week.This one does'nt seem to be of the same quality as the one I got earlier this week,yet they seem to have been made around the same time. I have'nt checked serial numbers but the graphics are the same. Both were built in Japan, but this more recent one has slightly cheaper components and the frame is not as fancy as the other.Also this bike is built with Tange Champion "Motocross" tubing.Anyone have any info on this type?
I've noticed over the years that Schwinn's foreign built bicycles quality is all over the place for the same models. Whats with that?

   RE:MISC:   Tange Motocross posted by Tom on 6/29/2003 at 3:19:26 PM
If anything, Japanese built bicycles have a reputation for rigorous quality control. Their variation in quality from bicycle to bicycle is tightly controlled. In my experience, the quality control of Japanese manufacturers is the best, even outperforming high end European manufacturers, particularly during the 70's and 80's, before the rest of the world lept on the Quality Bandwagon.

So, the variation you are seeing comes down to 3 possible sources;

1. What you are seeing are year to year design changes specified by Schwinn. Given the changes in lug style and componentry, this is the most likely explanation.

2. You have bicycles from two different sources. It is not uncommon for large companies to multi-source their suppliers. This would definitely explain the difference in lugs (as some builders find that a partricular lug yields better results with their particular brazing process). This could occur with components too, but is less likely, and the chances of both occuring at the same time are unlikely.

3. The manufacturer ran out of stock of the specified lugs and components and Schwinn authorized substitutions to meets sales commitments. This was a regular occurrence with components (which is why you regularly see that "specifications subject to change without notice" disclaimer in catalogues). This could occur with lugs too, but is less likely, and again, the chances of both occuring at the same time are unlikely.

Finally, you may have an example of variation due to a combination of two or more of the above possibilities.

Regarding, the Tange Motocross label, I have never seen one myself. If no followers of the Vintage Lightweights page can supply info, you may get a better response from the people on the Old School BMX page.

   RE:MISC:   Tange Motocross posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 11:32:24 PM
Hey, Tom. The Tange steel came in "Champion MTB" as one version, which is the heaviest of the "Champion" series, I believe.
MotoX applies tremendous demands on integrity of construction and I presume it pushes the envelope on the modulus of elasticity and fatigue on the tubing. MTB's have similar operational environments (in a few cases, most are run on blacktop that I see) so it's likely that the "Champion MTB" Tange stuff is close to the MotoX. Just a guess. Tange is real good tubing, in any application. I prefer the Tange#3 and #4, as it is heavier.
The "prestige" is a racer's tubing...the "lightness AND strength" category, too. I bet the motoX tubing is very, very strong, but not very light.

   RE:MISC:   Tange Motocross posted by Tom on 6/30/2003 at 3:23:00 AM
JONathan, if the Tange Motocross tubing is equivalent to the heavy duty ATB tubeset, then it is indeed heavy stuff, literally. It was so heavy that that I never seen a published weight! The main tubes were 1.2/0.9/1.2 mm thick. For comparison the standard #2 road tubeset used 0.9/0.6/0.9 mm main tubes and its published weight was 2290 g, so I'd guess the ATB set was pushing 3000 g. However, the ATB tubeset had an extremely high tensile strength of over 200,000 psi, at a time when 100,000-120,000 psi was standard for Cr-Mo tubes. Comparable tubesets from other manufacturers would have been Columbus Cromor OR, Ishiwata MTB-D, and True Temper AT.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Tange Motocross posted by JONathan on 6/30/2003 at 3:45:26 PM
I question why a road bike, such as the "Super Sport" would have motocross tubing. Maybe the model had changed focus. My "Suoper Sport" has 4130 steel.
The Tange "Champion MTB" steel is thick-walled, over 3000gm. Wall thickness is the main variable, then tube diameter and length of tubes I think are the main differences in steel.
The quality control and various manufacturing processes may separate the steels in practice. Tange is excellent tubing from what I can determine. The "prestige" is way to thin for me. The thought of having a frame break apart while riding is all I need to keep me away from that series. The "old school" GT I have something to do with (not as a rider!) is very stout; large diameter 4130 tubes. Pound for pound, it's the toughest bike in the pack.
The construction is very interesting. Since function tends to direct structure in bikes, I'm just guessing about the tubes. I'd weigh the bike, or mic the seat tube and lug, then subtract the lug diameter and compare with the charts...My Super Sport is 1971, so it's hard to compare with the branded versions of later issue. Mine is pretty heavy. Later...JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Tange Motocross posted by JONathan on 6/30/2003 at 3:50:10 PM
Oops, I meant "thickness". This keyboard!

AGE / VALUE:   Miyata 310 posted by: Ron on 6/28/2003 at 11:58:35 PM
Does anyone have an old Miyata catalog or brochure with color pictures? I ran across the original sales receipt for my bike and it lists the color as "Zodiac Blue" but the bike is a dark maroon. Is this a case of losing something in the translation or just a mistake by the salesman? I'd appreciate anyone emailing me a copy of any sales info.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata 310 posted by Tom on 6/29/2003 at 2:42:18 PM
Ron, someone made on mistake on your receipt. You don't mention the model year, but based on my catalogues it is probably a 1984 model. The 3 colour options that year were; Zodiac Blue, Metallic Burgundy and Starlite Silver. Based on the catalogue pictures Miyata's colour descriptions are accurate. You've definitely got the metallic burgundy version.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata 310 posted by Ron on 6/30/2003 at 1:28:04 AM
Thanks, Tom. I forgot to mention that I bought the bike in 1984.

AGE / VALUE:   legnano head badge posted by: Mark on 6/28/2003 at 12:06:09 AM

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   legnano head badge posted by Tom on 6/28/2003 at 2:40:01 AM
The Roma was the top of the line. The best source for decals is reportedly CyclArt in California. Good luck finding a headbadge. I'm currently restoring a Gran Premio, circa 1960, so I'm willing to assist you with whatever knowledge I have on the subject.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   legnano head badge posted by Steven on 6/30/2003 at 5:24:45 AM
Why go to Cycleart for decals? All they have are over-priced copies. You can go to Decalcomania in Italy and asked them for originals at a fraction of the cost. Remember to be very precise in the description of what you are looking for and be prepared to wait for a response. Their email address is: info@vintagetransfers.it

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   legnano head badge posted by Tom on 6/30/2003 at 12:24:42 PM
Steve, thanks for the info on a new source!

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   legnano head badge posted by Tom on 6/30/2003 at 12:25:02 PM
Steven, thanks for the info on a new source!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Brakes with Safety Levers posted by: Gralyn on 6/27/2003 at 5:18:51 PM
I posted earlier about a Nishiki Olympic 12. I have been working on it - I took it apart - and began cleaning and polishing the components. (I usually put everything in a box, pull items out and clean and polish them while I am sitting and watching TV during the evening hours). Well, anyway, I came to the brake levers. Yes, I remember - they have the safety levers. I was going to remove them, and replace the longer pivot bolt with a shorter one used on levers without the extra safety lever. So, I go out to the workshop and dig out my box of brake sets. Wouldn't you know it! I don't have a single brake lever that does not have the safety levers! OK, so, I have some bikes with aero levers. I have a couple bikes with just the singel levers - but they are in-use on good bikes - so I can't use those. I have a couple of really old levers - but they are not compatable with the DiaCompe. Everything else - has the safety levers! Bunches and bunches of them. Heck, it's about like the stem shifter deal!

OK, does anyone know of a source for these bolts? The only other alternative I know of is to wait until I can stumble across a parts bike with compatable levers - and that may take years.

Another thing - the day after I got the Nishiki Olympic 12 - I spotted another one. Well, I was by there again today - it was still there. I looked closely this time. It was all the same - except for the wheels. The wheels were regular steel, very rusted, with no QR. It is a 25" frame - and it has a $35 price on it.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Brakes with Safety Levers posted by Dave on 6/27/2003 at 6:36:48 PM
Grayln , I've successfully dremeled tooled off the bolt bosses for brake safety levers and the pivot is still ok,(except for one Weinemann set but I'm like you and had a bunch of these).The problem with leaving the boss and bolt on is that usually it catches the skin between your thumb and index finger and is not very comfortable.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Brakes with Safety Levers posted by JONathan on 6/27/2003 at 8:27:33 PM
Gralyn, no problem with that. Just saw that stub off with a cutoff wheel on the dremel at about 1/32 inch from the housing pillar. That prevents scoring pillar and also provides a seat for the washer. The threads go all the way to the center, but I had to cut the screw down about an 1/8 inch so the star washer gets a good bite on the washer. Use the washer! The pillar is pot metal, so you need that washer to displace the pressure from the screw and washer. I'm thinking about grinding the whole surface to smooth it just a bit. It looks pretty sorry, sticking out even a 1/8 of an inch....JONathan

      Brakes with Safety Levers posted by John E on 6/28/2003 at 5:47:07 PM
Simply cut off the protruding end and buy a pair of gum (preferably) or black brake hoods. CyclArt sells decent-looking unbranded black made-in-Taiwan reproduction brake hoods for Weinmann handles; I use them on the Capo and the UO-8.

Incidentally, I got the Capo frameset back from CyclArt on Wednesday. I cheated a bit and specified a candy-looking metallic red instead of a true candy (translucent color coat over silver), but it looks fabulous.

   RE:   Brakes with Safety Levers posted by JONathan on 6/28/2003 at 7:56:54 PM
Nothing beats a great paint job on a classic ride, IMHO. The Taiwan made hoods sound good for my Mercier gas-pipe 10 speed refit. That is perfect for the tight budget. Thanks for that tip. Those types of "parts" are usually not salvagable from other rides. THe paint (black with red, highlighted with gold stripping) on my Motobecane "Super Mirage" looks brilliant, almost irridescent after cleaning and waxing. It must have been stiking when brand new. Paint really is an art. I find the mechanical features are all function based and little to separate the name brands, whereas paint expresses a much more interesting aspect to a ride. Our newly recruited Motobecane "Nobly" has "low-end" stamped all over its mechanical presence (my wife digs it, so I'll not tell her it's lacking a pedegree), but the coffee with gold highlights paint is unquestionably superb. People dig it, even though the bike is painful to observe with a mechanic's eye.The paint boots the bike into another dimension. Now, she can get off that lumbering Raleigh "Sports". It was that paint job, not the 10 speeds with 27 inch wheels that did it. Hip, hip, for paint....JONathan
Note: To Raleigh fans, I love the "sports", just that unless you're stepped up a notch on the physical fitness scale, they are hard to keep up with the LW 10's. My DLT-3 with alloy 700-25C wheels comes pretty close.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   The Holy Grail? posted by: Walter on 6/27/2003 at 1:55:13 PM
I know finding a middle quality Asian made bike boom LW for 10$ at Good Will is a satisfying experience. However, I'd propose that this is the real deal. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3615331212&category=7298 A 1972 Milano Masi, NOS still in wrapping paper. I gather the guy found it in Europe. Even there this has to be as rare as it gets.

Definitely not Good Will money though. I wonder what it'll top out at. I'm reminded of a $7K+ PX10 and realize that anything is possible.

Definitely not my auction as I wouldn't sell it even though it is too tall for me.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   The Holy Grail? posted by Chuck Schmidt on 6/28/2003 at 5:46:23 AM
No, the bike was found in the Midwest of America. The owner of the bike, John Barron had this to say about how he found the bike:
"I had put the word out in shops in the Midwest that I was looking for stuff (stuf) like this, and a shop owner friend of a shop owner who I did a lot of business with contacted me. He had a customer who owned it along with 15 Mercedes Benz's and gosh knows what else. I have been working on this deal for almost 10 months! The owner was a private collector who wishes to remain anonymous."

Here's more of the story and photos of bike unwrapped:

WANTED:   schwinn paramount track 40's/50's posted by: ronnie on 6/27/2003 at 11:30:00 AM
any condition, thanks.

MISC:   Motobecane "Super Mirage"; Japanese components posted by: JONathan on 6/27/2003 at 4:52:43 AM
Heir-apparent to my AO-8 is this definite guy's bike Super Mirage by Motobecane. Picked up for $5 from a neighbor after it sat all day in the driveway at his garage sale with no takers! Unbelievable to me. There was a guy looking at it when I appeared on the scene, but his wife was with him. Hee, hee. He didn't strand a chance of getting it. I butted in with an immediate change of subject to the mix-mash of stereo stuff stacked ona table. Not to give off my extreme interest in the bike, I casually circled around to where I was ready to swoop as soon as the guy looking at it moved off. "I'll take it"; I said...holding a "fiver" up in the air like I was at an auction. I felt kinda bad that I only paid $5, but he kept saying how it was a back-burner, been sitting with a tarp on it for a couple years, etc. He was going to ride it, but couldn't pump the presta tubes with his pump. I found out later, he had a Zefal dual service pump. I thought it was a "Mirage" until I cleaned of the top-tube of dust and saw the "Super" in front of the "Mirage" scripted decal. What a bike! 42 inch wheel base, 2040 "high resiliency steel" tubes; half-chrome forks; SunTour "GT" rear der.; beefy Simplex front; "Motobecane" cranks which are Sakae "SR" branded; Mavic 27x1 1/4 inch "Module-E alloy rims; Shimano HF hubs, the rear has a tiny hole with a spring steel clip covering it on the axle housing (lubrication?); heavy-duty pedals with Christophe stamped on the toe-clips; Weinmann "Vainqueur 999 (610/750)" cp brakes with Dia-Compe (Weinmann licensed?) levers with a built in mirror on the left, both are hooded; SR stem and an up-swing on the drop bars that looks wicked in profile; 14-32, 5 speed freewheel and a 52 large chainring (sm. looks about 40). The saddle is a Trek racing type, the kind you rarely sit on while riding and probably not original. The interesting frame feature is the semi-wraparound seatstays. Lugs are slightly ornate. The lousy tires have to go, but a quick ride home and few runs up and down the street on low pressure revealed what is to be a fine rider. Paint is near perfect with black as main and red highlights. This bike looks wicked mean. I'm into the "Moto"s, now. I heard that Motobecane made a bold move to use Japanese components on their export bikes, so I presume that most of the components are the original eq.. This would qualify as a "low-end bike, but we need another category, because it is too good a bike to be lumped in with the usual gas-pipe line up of bikes I have. Now, we have a "Nobly" and a "Super Mirage" to pair up on the paths. If you can find a "Super Mirage"...get it, now!...JONathan
BTW, thanks, Tom. I decided to post my gratitude in a new thread.

   RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by Tom on 6/28/2003 at 3:18:56 PM
Another nice find JONathan! It sounds like the A08 is soon to be de-throned. I can't speak to the ride characteristics, but the Super Mirage should definitely have better shifting performance.

Yes, Motobecane was one of the first European brands to spec Japanese components. According to my literature, this started in 1974, possibly 1973. The line-up was definitely all European in 1972, with Suntour products on selected models in 1974. I don't have a 1973 catalogue, so I can't make a definitive statement for that year. As for your Super Mirage, it's probably a late 70's or early 80's model. It definitely wasn't in the line-up in the mid 70's. The first record I have of it's appearance is 1979.

You are correct in stating that the Dia Compe brakes are Weinmann designs produced under license. From what I've read, Weinmann granted Dia Compe the license in exchange for a license to manufacture the brake safety levers, which were a Dia Compe patent. Personally, I always thought the Dia Compe brakes felt a little more spongy than their Weinmann counterparts, but could never understand why. In retrospect, it was probably the properties of the brake cable.

   RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by Peugeot rear light on 6/28/2003 at 4:44:43 PM

I poster a picture of my Peugeot on my web site. I got a close up of the rear light. Is this the style of lense you need? I decided to sell the bike as the frame is to big for me (55cm). If it will help I can disassemble the light and send you some close-ups of the lenses. Bike is in San Antonio, Texas. Pictures can be viewed at:
By the way, what's a fair price for this model? Thanks for all the help.
Joe Taylor
Joe Taylor

   RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by Walter on 6/28/2003 at 10:37:00 PM
I bought a Moto "Nomade" in 1978, my first "real" bike nd still one of the very few I've ever bought brand new. Mine was the entry level and the Mirage one step up, I don't recall a Super Mirage in 1978 though I've seen them.

My bike was Huret equipped with a proprietary cotterless crankset. Really pretty metallic blue. The Mirage had the same (hi-ten) frame but QR wheels, 2 tone paint and the ST shifting. Both bikes had stem shifters mine were pretty plain Huret while the Mirage had those big ratcheting ST stem shifters. I put an early ST Superbe rear on mine as well as a set of BarCons and was very happy with the improvement.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 2:14:11 AM
Walter, those "Nomades" were real nice bikes. The "Nobly" was the entry level, which certainly has a better paint up than much pricier mounts for the day, IMHO, of course. Motobecanes have the best paint jobs for a stock bike, in my opinion. I have the SunTour downtube "power-shift" ratchet levers on the "Super Mirage". The "Nobly" lady's frame has Simplex plastic hamdled shifters (stem mounted) with a metal sleeve. Weinmann side-pull cheap brakes, but for a light rider, they work OK. I'm not changing those out, since the rider isn't a beast, like me. I'd pop those brakes clean off. Using Tom's definition for "craftmanship" in this case, the "Nobly" has succeeded in meeting its design parameters. Kool-Stops make them OK for casual riding with low mass riders. The steel Rigida wheels are one area that is changed out for alloys. The seat had to go. Everything else is running stock. I think the "Super Mirage" is about where you pegged it, Tom. 1978-1979. It is a better ride than the AO-8. The AO-8 is destined for casual beater rides...at least bikes don't have feelings. It was a great ride for long or short. The "Super Mirage" is significantly better handling, no doubt functioning within its design parameters, just like the venerable AO-8's. I think the AO-8 will perform better on dirt roads due to the shorter rear triangle, long rake and less rigidity. Joe, I couldn't get the pics. Are they on site? The one bike, looks like my 1977 Schwinn "Le Tour II", based on that crankset spider and chainrings. Panasonic branded bike? Yes, I'm lookin' for that lens. I won't find one unless I get lucky...it happens, so I have hope. I would ask $150 for my UE-8, as I have fitted it up for riding. I haven't planned on selling it, but just as a guide for what it could get. At a LBS, the bare-bones Peugeot Uo-8's come in at about $135 and up! Mine is nearly pristine and is fitted up with everything, fenders included. I'd say $200 isn't a bad target. I know the collectors are laughing, but we're talking a cool riding machine, here tha's fuuuunky, too. Right? I'm keeping my Peugeot "low-ends" for a while, since it ain't no big deal. Watch them climb...Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 2:30:16 AM
The handlebars on the "Super Mirage" are curved up from the stem and then take a long sweeping drop. Wicked lookin from the front view. Takes some getting used to, as I'm used to straight drop bars,without the compound curves. The make is "Pivo", "made in France" with a fancy embossment design. The Weinmann brake pillar hoods are heavy duty and in new shape. The built-in rear-view mirror on the left brake pillar is interesting. I though it was an after market tack-on, but it may be OEM....JONathan
Note: Motos are preetty doggone cool.

   RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by Joe Taylor on 6/29/2003 at 3:22:07 AM
Sorry about the mix-up, I forgot to publish the update to my site after after I added the pictures. You should be able to view them now.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by JONathan on 6/29/2003 at 5:11:44 AM
Joe, first, that P/U is too cool. The xkn Schwinn looks a lot like my Schwinn "world" made by Giant of Taiwan. Check the left drop-out for a "G####" serial. The second two digits are the year of production. Ex.; G80### is 1980. The other Schwinn was a "Le Tour II" looking bike to me. You had it on the previous edition. The "world" has the same stickers. The bike is a tankish ride. I used it for a couple months as a "house bike" while helping someone move. It got lots of use and served it's purpose. The stamped steel chainwheel is tough and durable. The "LE TOUR II", 1977, like the other bike, is a notch higher...a big notch.
That Peugeot UE-8 is a ringer for mine, except mine is blue. The bike's condition is archival, based on paint and componentry condition. That tail-light is missing on mine, and yours has the exact lens...I know you want to keep the bike as complete unit, so I won't ask. Yours looks pretty fine, from the pic. How's the decal work? I have to keep mine original, as it's too fine to scrub the dumpy components for modern fittings, when there are so many bikes that are riders that I'd not worry about minor wear and tear that happens in everyday riding, that are better candidates for refit. I mean, what's a couple more scratches. On a bike that's in near perfect shap, it's better to keep it as a show piece, all shiny and clean. I know a gadzillion were made , but there aren't many in this good of condition and the UE-8 was aTOL bike for that genre and fewer were put out compared to the others. This is the first one I've come across...great that it was primo specimen. I just looked at mine, and I'd say it's at least a couple C's to make me think about parting with it. It's going in my "office" on a cable hanger, or maybe a rotating swivel from the ceiling....Thanks for the post, enjoyed the look-see....JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Motobecane posted by Joe Taylor on 6/29/2003 at 6:41:05 PM
Thanks for the response. I'm not sure what I am going to do with the Peugeot. I had a spree of bike buying at yard sales this weekend and things are getting a little crowded. On Friday, I picked up a 50cm Takara 10 speed with Sun Tour components at a local thrift store for $10. Then Saturday, I found a 51cm Trek 400 with Shimano components and Maillard hubs. Today I picked up an old Sears single speed coaster bike with 26" rims. The tires are dry-rotted but were the original Sears Crusader brand. The UE-8 is probably the rarest bike I have but I need to slow down or possibly down-size my toy collection. I wouldn't want to part out the UE-8, but would be willing to sell it complete for a reasonable price if anyone is interested. The bike is in San Antonio, Texas, but could be boxed and shipped.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by: Joe on 6/27/2003 at 4:38:58 AM
I have a few questions that maybe someone here can answere.
I recently came across a Batavus "track bike". (This is my first fixed gear bike I have come acrossed.)
I am trying to figure out if it was originally a track bike or conversion. It has cottered cranks with a 1/8" 42 tooth chainring, 1/8" - 14 tooth rear cog, Zeus track hubs and Rigida tubular rims, no braze-ons, no sign of ever having any sort of brakes, alloy stem (very long reach), and alloy bars (both unbranded but state 'made in Spain), The frame has part of a decal that I am sure at one time stated the type of tubing (I can only make out the words "butted tubing and the tubing name started with a "V" but the decal is to large to match any of the Vitus Tubing decals that I have seen. The model is "Tour de France".
The part that looks out of place is the steel cottered cranks, as well as the fact that this bike is not particularly light, I would guess it to be in the upper 20 lb. range, maybe even 30 lbs. I don't recall ever having seen a track bike with steel cranks, let alone I am not familiar with the brand Batavus. Could this be just a lower end or entry level track bike or was it common at one time to use steel cottered cranks? I realize that at one point they were all that was available within a reasonable price range. I have seen alloy Stronglight cranks as early as the mid 50's. Other than the crankset, the components on this bike are fairly high on the food chain. I kind of figured that since there is no sign of any calipers ever being bolted up, someone may well have built this up when new, using either what they had around or could afford? Since it came from the New York City area, I considered the posibility of this being a messenger bike as well, but that idea does't go with the sew-up tires and the lack of a brake. I bought this along with some other bikes and parts from a small bike shop which had closed it's doors in the early 70's. There is a fair selection of track components but this was the only whole bike, I also found several used low end steel track hubs in the parts assortment. I alway wanted to try a fixed gear bike, either way and regardless of what it is, it will serve that purpose. Along that thinking, I was wandering if I should leave the tubular rims or build up a set of clinchers? I am over 200 lbs. and figured I am a bit heavy for the sew-up tires as well as old 15 ga. double butted spokes.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by JONathan on 6/27/2003 at 6:37:39 AM
Joe, have you checked the make of the steel cranks? They may be Williams'. Those are very strong cranks. Check the posts from count=3 for info on the cranks. Nice find! Why can't I find any track bikes, There was a velodrome that was here for years. No stray track bikes seem to get put up for sale.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by Gralyn on 6/27/2003 at 12:02:23 PM
Check out the rear drop-outs. If they are open at the back...it is probably a true track bike. If it has the drop-outs like found on most lightweight 10-speeds - then it is probably a conversion. Also look for brase-ons for deraillieur cables, brake cables, etc. - that would also indicate a conversion.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by Willie L. on 6/27/2003 at 12:47:56 PM
I believe Batavus was a Dutch bike manufacturer. Remember them being sold new in the early or mid 80's in a New York City shop called Stuyvesant Bicycle.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by Warren on 6/27/2003 at 1:16:59 PM
As Gralyn says, a real track bike will have "track ends"...rearward facing slots. Another indication that it is a true track bike are round fork blades because muscular track sprinters induce serious amounts of side-to-side flex. Track bike geometry is usually tighter...when you're in the saddle, your head will be more forward...of course this also happens because track bikes are fitted smaller than road bikes...usually about 2 or 3 cms. Other subtleties are the fork crowns, the lack of brake drillings, heavier tubes, shorter axles with less Q-factor, and negative angle stems. A steel cottered track crank may just indicate an older bike. I saw a Mercier from the 60's with a steel crank just the other day.

Any braze ons for cables, bottles, pumps etc indicates a road bike conversion. Batavus makes the full range of bikes so you may have something nice.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by Joe on 6/28/2003 at 4:18:07 AM
Hi, I checked the bike for braze-ons but there are none, not even a cable stop or guide, the rear drop outs are normal but look oversized, but that may be just the way Batavus made all of them, the forks do look heavier than the usuall lightweight, the tubes are still oval but much thicker than say a Raleigh, the fork crown is cast and has Batavus scripted into each side on top. there is a hole to mount a caliper but the paint is untouched front and back. The rear has a bridge where a caliper bridge would be but it's just a flat plate with no center hole.
I am not sure yet what the cranks are, they are definitely a breed of their own, the right arm is made so as to space the chainwheel inward almost 15mm from the inner edge of the actuall arm, as if they were made to use a standard spindle length. As far as age, I am guessing this is at least early 70's maybe older by just looking at the style of different items, it's head badge is either brass or alluminum and 3 dimentional stamped (not just a decal or printed plate, the lugs are kind of plain but are longer than most, and the steel Lyotard pedals are older looking than any others I've seen. The riding position feels to be more forward but I kind of figured that that was due to the short wheel base, the extremely long stem (almost 160 mm long)which drops forward sharply, as well as it is a smaller frame than I am used to riding. My current daily rides are a '78 Raleigh Super Course, an early 80's Lotus, and a '93 Panasonic DX 4000 (converted to a Nexus 7 speed as a sort of hybrid). I am used to a 63cm or larger frame, the Batavus is only about 57 cm. The handlebars are different looking as well, they are narrow with sweeping bends, there are almost no straight portions of the bars other than the lower ends which are quite short. The loop area of the bars is much larger and farther forward than any of my road bikes. The bars are taped with an early cloth tape and appear to be coated with some sort of sealer, the frame has four eyelets taped on to the triangle, 2 on top and two on the bottom they look to be plastic and are held on with bar tape. I haven't figured out what they were used for yet. Maybe a number or name placard?
There is no sign of a derailer ever being clamped around the seat tube either, the paint has wear but is perfect in that area.
My biggest surprise was the weight, I would have expected it to be lighter, it nears 30 lbs as it is, if it had all the street components of it's day it would probably be in the low to mid 30 lb range, thats Varsity territory!
What do you guys think about leaving the tubulars versus going to clinchers? I am concerned due to my size as well as the fact that roads here are a little rough, not to mention the fact that even a decent set of tubulars go for at least $75.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by Tom on 6/28/2003 at 8:08:19 PM
This is very perplexing. It sounds like the rear dropouts and fork are road versions, but there is the anomaly of the rear brake bridge without the brake mounting hole. Also, the "Tour de France" name screams road bike. But the bars and stem are definitely track versions, based on your description. Shellac sealing of cloth tape was a common practice, particularly in France, though it's heyday was the 50's and 60's. Perhaps the shop received a bare road frame for which the manufacturer forgot to drill the brake mounting hole? Then the shop decided to build it up as a fixed gear? That would explain the road fork and dropouts, and also the lack of mounting marks from brakes and derailleurs. Now that sounds like a complicated solution to a simple question, but what's THE simple answer?

My experience is that most heavier riders are happier on clinchers, but should you decide to keep the tubulars, you should be able to get a pair for about half that price.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Batavus fixed gear? posted by Joe on 6/30/2003 at 5:47:41 AM
Tom, I kind of came to the same idea but not knowing the Brand Batavus, I guess I need another opinion. I have built several bikes from various new old stock frames that I had gotten from old shop inventories. I built them all will vintage components but often chose components to my liking and not by what belonged to make it original. I also wanted to be sure I wasn't going to ruin a valuable bike by customizing it to my specs. I'll probably set it up as is just to try, if I like it, I'll build a set of clinchers for it, if I decide its not for me, I'll most likely trade or sell it for another project.

AGE / VALUE:   Nishiki Cervino posted by: john on 6/27/2003 at 12:24:59 AM
Hey Guys,
I recently bought a Nishiki road bike dating somewhere around the 80's. What's odd there is a made in Italy sticker on the down tube under the shifter levers. All of the cables are internally routed in columbus tubing, an open(slotted) bottom braket shell, it has straight campagnolo super record group set. I was curious if any one new anything about the frame and model, or if it was a custom. The top tube has cervino written on it. Any info would be much appreiciated. Thanks.