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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix 'steering' problem posted by: Steven on 7/11/2003 at 8:43:48 PM
I hope someone can help me. My 70's Raleigh GP wants to go left, I tried turning the front tire around, same thing wants to steer left. Everything looked OK until I had a friend hold the bike upright while I looked at it head on. It seems the front tire is cantered slightly to the right (as looked at from the front) but the forks don't looked damaged unless they were done so evenly. Anyone ever had this problem and have an idea on how to fix it?
It is in excellent shape otherwise except for a very worn Wrights saddle, it even has original Raleigh Racing tires.
Thanks for any info.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix 'steering' problem posted by JONathan on 7/11/2003 at 10:00:49 PM
Here's what I would do: Place the wheel on another bike and see if the canted aspect is still prevalent. If so, then you have a wheel problem. The spokes and hub flanges are prime suspects, in my opinion. Take the axle out and check the hub for trueness on a flat surface. May as well look at the axle, too. You can measure the rim-flat surface distance on each side. If the wheel sets properly in the "test" bike, then you have a fork, head-tube or steerer problem. I take the whole forkset off and place it on a granite slab and check for raised (dissimilar) fork-end on either side. Measure the steerer tube trueness by LOS methods of your choice. I use visual inspection, but you could also measure the distances from a fixed point at the 90 deg. positions (parallel to axle). Everything checks? I'd look at the main-triangle and esp. the head-tube. I hope it's not that kind of problem. Just what I'd try, not saying I'm "Mr. Know-everything". One thing is certain for me; sometimes the problem isn't what you'd expect....Good luck, JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix 'steering' problem posted by Warren on 7/11/2003 at 10:02:57 PM
It only takes an almost imperceptable amount of fork bend to throw out the steering. I routinely have forks straightened at good bike shops. Parks makes a jig esecially for this...among others. Get it done.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix 'steering' problem posted by Steven on 7/12/2003 at 12:30:37 AM
Thanks for the info boys, looks like it's a bent fork. Very slight difference but one seems like it is curved sharper than the other. Hope the local bike shop can straighten it out for me.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix 'steering' problem posted by Tom on 7/12/2003 at 2:40:12 AM
Provided you are willing to remove the fork, there is a quick and easy check to determine if one blade is offset from the other. Lie the fork on on a surface, so that it is supported by the steering column and the front of the dropouts. Now position a small (preferably magnetic)level across the back of fork blades just below the crown. Carefully mark the bubble position with tape. Remove and re-lay the level to ensure the marks are correct. Now lay the level across the back of the dropouts. If the bubble is offset from the marked positions, then the blades are offset from each other.

The advantage of this check is that the surface does not have to be perfectly flat, or level. The fork supports itself as a tripod which is stable on any surface. The fork crown is then used solely as a reference point and does not have to be level, though you may have to place a shim under one dropout if the bubble is at ends of the spirit tube. Using care, this method will detect offsets of 1/64" (0.015")which is the manufacturing tolerance for most framebuilders. 1/32" (0.031") should be easily detectible.

The drawback to the above method is that it does not take the measurement from the mounting slot in the dropout, which is where framebuilders measure. However, this should only be a concern if the manufacturer filed the dropout slot to compensate for errors.

As Warren suggests, a shop with a Park jig can straighten it for you, however if you have the time and inclination you can do it at home very easily, but not necessarily quickly. The Park jig just allows you do get it right with less attempts, which is of prime importance if you are working in a shop.

In the event that it is not a bent fork, it could also be a bent steering column as JONathan suggests, lateral alignment of the blades, a misaligned head tube or a misaligned rear triangle. These can also be checked relatively easily, but I fear my postings are far too long and invovled for most, so I'll defer going into explanations of these checks, usless specifically requested.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix 'steering' problem posted by JONathan on 7/12/2003 at 4:58:16 AM
Thanks, Tom. I will do that procedure on the next bent fork set. Steven, a bent fork on a Gran Prix (or any solid bike) is the result of significant impact. If it was my forks, I would look real hard at the steerer, to make sure it is not creased and I would also change the stem, as I think they are weak ponts on 10 speed dropbar designs. The MTB stems are vastly superior in design...IMHO, of course.
My Gran Prix is from late '70's and it has Japanese components, which are easy to get. I'd play it safe....Cheers, JONathan

AGE / VALUE:   another record ace posted by: larry on 7/11/2003 at 1:58:57 AM
i'v seen some people talking about the record ace. i have one also, it's been in my garage since 1982. the ser#ns9014207. nobody has given an appox. price on it. i don't know if i should sell, or give some time to it. it is a nice ride. hav'nt rode in quite some time. any comments would be appreciated.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   another record ace posted by JONathan on 7/12/2003 at 5:47:55 AM
I realize, now, that my RRA isn't any big collector deal, but then the bike is a bit of "history" and it is well constructed. My Gran Prix and Record are in that same genre. I ask: Are "Model 'A'" type bikes valuable? Yes, it's just a matter of when. The added bonus is they make great riding bikes while gaining in value. I'm keeping mine around for a few years, then test the market waters. A RRA in very good shape has to be $200 worth of bike, I think. That's not really very much money for the cost of bikes these days...bikes that stay tuned and serve the rider well, that is. I hear the price of $25 for them at thrift stores and think; "Yes, but they need about $100 of parts and at least that much in time spent getting them to safe, rideable shape. My '60's Record is bit of a basket, but still better off than the Mercier "beater" that consumed a lot of time. I call it fun...JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   another record ace posted by JONathan on 7/13/2003 at 8:43:54 PM
hello. i was glad to read your message. you should look at your RRA carefully.yhis name has been used on many different raleigh models. the most famous in recent(30) years was a reynolds special lightwieght frame with simplex ders and seatpost, weinman 500 sidepull brakes and normandy luxe hubs which had oversize bearings.about two hundred of these were sent to the u.s. market as replicas of the factory bikes used in the "milk race" in great britain. this is a very famous race that is limited to amatuers. the bike was built as a very cost effective unit to be accessible to younger riders.it was nearly as light as the top of the line Pro. i believe it was availible in white only. while still not extremly valuable you should find out for sure which model you have. though not expensive it was made in such limited quantities it deserves a good owner. beware. the tubing in this frameset can be damaged by being clamped to tightly in a park stand. good luck dan

MISC:   TJ Flying Gate posted by: Bryant on 7/10/2003 at 3:56:29 PM
Heard of this one on the English Roadsters board. NMA
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2182954043&category=420 What is the deal with the set back seat post? Is that to give the rider a more aero position? is a cantilever like that strong enough? Pretty hefty opening Bid. Anyone see one of these before??

   RE:MISC:   TJ Flying Gate posted by Tom on 7/10/2003 at 5:25:08 PM
The seat position is the same as a normal double diamond frame. However, the vertical tube from the bottom bracket permits the back wheel to be situated closer to the bottom bracket, thus shortening the chainstays and making a tight rear triangle. This makes the bike more responsive. The shorter drivetrain is also more efficient. The vertical tube is also shorter and thus stiffer than a sloping tube. This stiffens the bracket by taking the sideward thrust from the cranks better. The extra stays from the rear drop-outs to the vertical tube on the top tube eliminate the whip on the short seat tube. Fianlly, the design permits the builder to make the top tube any length without altering the geometry of the frame.

The design was originally originated by Baines in 1936 and later licensed by Jarvis. Apparently the Flying Gate name derived for the fact that all the riders who used them were setting new records(i.e. they were "flying"). Gate reported origintes form the fact that it opened up a new design concept.

For more info, check out out the Baines page of Classic Rendezvous and the TJ Cycles site ( http://members.aol.com/polldoug/flyinggate/index.htm )

   RE:RE:MISC:   TJ Flying Gate posted by Bryant on 7/10/2003 at 6:17:48 PM
You learn something new each day!! Thanks for the info!!

   RE:MISC:   TJ Flying Gate posted by sam on 7/10/2003 at 10:34:12 PM
The English racing rules barred riders and clubs from advertizing there bike brand.Sence they couldn't bragg about what they were ridding the bicycle builders designed frames that could be reconized.There were several of these--check on curley Hetchins too.

   RE:RE:MISC:   TJ Flying Gate posted by Chuck Schmidt on 7/11/2003 at 4:00:51 PM
Hilary Stone wrote the following:
"I don't really know how many times it has to be said that Britain's RTTC ban in 1938 (which lasted effectively just two years) on maker's names being clearly shown in photographs had no effect on frame design in the UK. Most of the funnies (Hetchins, Bates, Baines, Sun Manx, Saxon SWB, Moorson etc etc) had already been designed and built prior to this and the ones that came after were not aimed at time triallists (Paris Galibier, Sun Manxman TT – road racers, Thanet Silverlight – tourists). It is a myth that needs to be killed once and for all."

AGE / VALUE:   shwinn breeze posted by: AmberB on 7/10/2003 at 3:51:41 AM
I just recently bought an old schwinn breeze and cannot figure out the serial number. I know that someone should be able to help me here. It's HF 50510-any ideas? Thank you in advance.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   shwinn breeze posted by Oscar on 7/10/2003 at 4:21:28 AM
H= August, F= 1970. With all that sturdy chrome and quality Schwinn paint, she should clean up real nice.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   shwinn breeze posted by JONathan on 7/10/2003 at 5:11:37 AM
The 1977 Schwinn "breeze" one-speed with coaster (back pedal) brake was worth my effort to restore. It rides real smooth. Problem is; it is hard to go fast or up hills pushing those heavy cranks and wheels. The tires are different, too. You can get for S-6 compatible tires by Kenda for a fraction of the Schwinn original spec. tires. However, the Schwinn tires are very good and they fit better from my experience. The poor bike is just waiting for a rider! Oscar, that paint really is thick!...JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   shwinn breeze posted by Wings on 7/10/2003 at 5:46:40 AM
The Breeze is one of my favorite bikes. I just like the way it looks and the simplicity of the design. I don't ride a breeze although I have one that is like new out of the box. I can't resist them. I always purchase the old ones for the parts but then I don't seem to part them out! I need to start riding one with a big basket on the front -- but I also live in hill country!

Enjoy your Breeze!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   shwinn breeze posted by AmberB on 7/10/2003 at 6:14:25 AM
August 1970-how exciting! Thank you so much for all your responses!

AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Record Ace posted by: Drew on 7/9/2003 at 10:51:18 PM
Wanted to know how late Raleigh made the 10 speed Record Ace. Mines a '78 made in England. also, when did Raleigh stop producing bikes in England?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Record Ace posted by Dave on 7/10/2003 at 2:41:02 PM
I think Raleigh stopped exporting bikes to the US in 1980 and Raleigh USA took over then.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Record Ace posted by Wayne on 7/10/2003 at 3:21:07 PM
Actually, for your bike the serial number should give you all the info you need.
Post it here and I'll decode it for you.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Record Ace posted by JONathan on 7/10/2003 at 8:32:04 PM
I have a RRA drom '79 that has the "N" designation (first character) in the ser. #.
It also has decals that say "TI/Made in England"l one on the down tube as a sticker and the second as a seat-tube sticker near the BB. There is a tinfoil sticker on the down-tube that specifies 1977 and 1978 as TI-Raleigh Team as "winners". The "TA specialtes" cranks are French, the SunTour front and stem "power shifters" were on it when I got the bike. I replaced the rear derailer with "Crane" to accommodate a triple chainring. It is not a great touring bike as it waffles under a load. The forged alloy stem is strong enough for touring and the gearing is perfect for long range cruising. I just couldn't buy into the flexing under full pack. I may give another try, as I had worked the rack anchor screw loose on the dropout, which may have accounted for some of the wavy ride. Too soon, I guess to close book on it as a long-range tourer. This RRA may have been one of the last built in England. Light blue color with blacked out head-tube and lug trim makes for a nice looking bike. The 25 inch frame makes it a bit more flexible, too. The beast for long range touring is my '60's Bottecchia that rides like a half-track, even loaded down. My second RRA is from the late '60's. I have not retored it enough for any evaluation of ride, but it seems a bit heavier in the frame than my '79.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh Record Ace posted by JONathan on 7/11/2003 at 12:11:23 AM
Interesting note. The 'late '60's Raleigh is a "Record", not RRA. It may be older than the 1967 "record" in the Retro-Raleigh catalog. It has cottered cranks, Altenberger cp brakes and Huret derailers with DT shifters. The BB has a "K" stamped onto the underside, while a 5 digit ser. # (93xxx) stamped into the left dropout. The lugs are heavier and the 20/30 steel frame is about like the '79 RRA.
The forks have "plugs" inside that appear to beef the fork crown and fork blade joint. That could add weight, too. So, the "record" was a low-end bike, but built pretty solid.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by: luke on 7/9/2003 at 9:12:43 PM
just a thank you to jonathan and all,
my le tour is going to work with me as i have removed the
cranks,[parks tool ccp-4] worked very well and i paid
$ 7.99 for it at bicycle tech in arlington texas.
im planning on blasting,primering,paint and bake this old
le tour by the end of the week!!!!
thanks agian

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by JONathan on 7/9/2003 at 11:25:13 PM
Congratulations, Luke! I would sure like to paint my Le Tour II a dark green, from the "Perlescent Orange" (yell'r) that's on it, now. You will have company, I predict, based on what I've been observing on the road. Lots'a vintage rolling around out there. The paint is in great shape on mine, so I guess I'll keep it as an "original", for now. I'm going bonk trying to decide what to work on; my French or Japanese units. The Mercier was a basket-case type of job; similar to my wooden boat restoration. Tons of effort for an obsolete, yet uniquely functional, object; a tribute to a past era. I am probably going to stick to my Japanese bikes as the parts are way easier to get. But,...as I look at the Moto "Super Mirage" on the porch, it's tempting me to tackle the challenge of the French vintage mounts, again. Thanks, again and may the shifts be smooth; glide like a cool breeze....JONathan

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by luke on 7/10/2003 at 8:58:26 PM
my wore down silver just didnt do it for me anymore,but
your dark green sounds good,so does a pearl white and a
metallic candy apple red!!!
i,ll keep ya posted.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by JONathan on 7/11/2003 at 12:20:26 AM
Yes, yes, yes! Good picks. Paint jobs "make" the bike. I can get the mechanical stuff in line properly, more or less. Nobody's complained, but I haven't charged 'em anything either. Problem is: Painting is a demanding sort of thing and it is expensive. Messing it up is real easy for me. I touch up the under sides and dropouts, that's my extent of painting. I think your doing the right thing with a bike that's a "classic" vintage. Yeah, leme see it. Good luck, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   crank removel posted by sam on 7/11/2003 at 2:27:13 AM
Painting a bicycle right is about as hard as it gets.Too many spots and too many angles and all the sides are round!If you don't have a paint stand forget it.An easy bike paint stand is a 4' piece of 5/8" re-bar with a 3/4nut welded on one end about 4" down,just drive the bar in the ground and slide the neck over the bar.the nut will keep it from sliding down.I like to start with the frame up-side down. flip and paint again.

AGE / VALUE:   AMF Roadmaster Saturn posted by: Lisa on 7/9/2003 at 5:42:12 PM
Does anyone know the age and value of a girl's AMF Roadmaster, Saturn edition?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   AMF Roadmaster Saturn posted by Dave on 7/9/2003 at 6:29:23 PM
Not much , these are mass produced department store bikes.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   AMF Roadmaster Saturn posted by sam on 7/9/2003 at 10:18:04 PM
saturn was the second from the top(top being roadmaster).might find more under ballooners---sam

MISC:   Call to action posted by: Keith on 7/9/2003 at 4:37:32 PM
Sorry this takes up so much room, but I felt it was important to share:
On Wednesday, July 2nd, the morning radio show on WMJI-Majic 105 read
e-mail from a listener saying that bicycles should not be on the roads
in the Cleveland Metroparks. At least one of the DJs told listeners
were in cars to do things like:

- speed past the bike, pull back into the lane and slam on your

- speed past the bike, have your passenger open their door and put on
the brakes.

- yell and/or honk at all cyclists as you pass in your car.

- throw things like cans or rolls of pennies out your window at

Apparently, there was a caller who said that what they were telling
people to do was wrong. The caller tried to explain that bicycles are
allowed on the roads and are vehicles just like cars. From what I
understand, the DJs made fun of the caller and didn't take her comments

I contacted one of the DJs, Jimmy Malone, about the content of the
program. He said that he would try to get "the other side of the
on Thursday's show and I agreed to be interviewed.

My interview started with me explaining that bicycles are allowed on
roadways and why some cyclists don't use the multi-purpose trails in
Metroparks. During the "interview", I was repeatedly and relentlessly
called a buffoon, idiot, clueless, pms-sufferer, couldn't take a joke,
didn't understand satire and stupid.

For the remaining three hours of their "show", they took calls from
listeners and further encouraged drivers to do whatever it takes to get
cyclists off the roads. Callers who agreed with their viewpoints were
awarded a gift certificate to a local restaurant.

They aired loads of people who called in to say that they agreed that
bicyclists are basically moving targets. I heard of only one person
that said they felt that their "jokes" were wrong. I was left
wonderring if they were just putting the ignorant people on the air or
(as they said) did no cyclists call in with their opinion?

We need every single person who rides a bike to call or e-mail the
Federal Communications Commission, the station, Clear Channel
Communications and the Cleveland Metroparks to say that the program
during these two mornings is wrong. It is DEAD wrong if someone is
killed because the radio station spent over four hours "joking" about
swerving into cyclists, throwing things at riders, honking, yelling, or
passing and then slamming on your brakes.

Please take a few moments to call, write or e-mail any or all of the

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
445 12th St SW
Washington, DC 20554
phone 202-418-7450
fax 202-418-2810

go to www.wmji.com to e-mail the Program Manager

Dave Popovich and/or Jim Meltzer
6200 Oak Tree Blvd
Independence, OH 44131-6933

Clear Channel Communications, head offices, San Antonio, Director of
Public Relations - lisadollinger@clearchannel.com

John Hogan, CEO
Clear Channel Radio
200 East Basse Rd
San Antonio, TX 78209

Bob Rotatori-PR Manager
Cleveland Metroparks
4101 Fulton Parkway
Cleveland, Ohio 44144
216-351-6300 ext. 3263

Someone needs to stand up against this aggressive and selfish behavior
that some motorists feel against bicyclists in the Metroparks and on
roadways. We need to educate the public, both motorists and cyclists,
about the correct rules of the road.

Please copy me on any e-mails or letters that you send. I can be
reached at:

phone 440-519-0006
fax 440-519-0079

Lois Cowan
Century Cycles
33351 Aurora Rd
Solon, OH 44139


I don't want this to escalate into an "us versus them" debate and make
things worse. I just want to try to educate the public that bicycles
are considered vehicles, cyclists are allowed on the roads and that we
should all share the roads. I think I may have Clear Channel in a
position that they will be obligated to help get the message out.

Thanks for your help,

   RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Gralyn on 7/9/2003 at 5:05:26 PM
I've always understood that bicycles had just as much right to the road as automobiles. .....and that pedestrians always have the right-of-way (whether they are walking across the road, along side it, or even walking on it). I know a lot of motorists don't like bikes on the road. I can understand why. Just think about it: you're driving down the road.....at a reasonable speed...then up come upon a cyclist. You have to really watch and be extra careful - especially if it's a young cyclist - as they may weave all over the road. If the opposite lane is wide-open - you can simply go around the cyclist. But, if there is traffic coming toward you, or beside you - you have no other option but to slow down and drive the same speed they cyclist is going. This really irritates motorists! It cramps their style, makes them edgy, makes them think they are going to be late, etc. If there's room to squeze by - they will. But if there's not...then they are stuck until they can find a way to get past the cyclist.

I have personally been yelled at, gestured at, screamed at, etc. for being on the road on my bike. I have even been hit once. I wish all roads had a bike lane. I think if more roads did - there would be a lot more cyclists. There are lots of times I won't get on my bike and ride - just because I don't feel like dealing with the motorists.

   RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Rob on 7/9/2003 at 5:37:34 PM
It is chilling to hear this sort of idiocy being turned into a so-called "joke". I have found after several years of regular commuting that the vast majority of drivers are quite reasonable...some probably more reasonable than is expected. I try not to be too much of an obstacle, I try to make room as soon as I can, and I try to stay off the busiest streets as much as I can. But the idiots are still out there and it only takes one to...well, you know the rest. I think what the radio station is doing is unconscionable, and I'm sure they are simply trying to boost their ratings and, hence, their adverting revenue in whatever way the can. I'm sure they'll be quite happy with the "controversy"...as long as they don't lose any money... I know it's easy for me to say, living in a far of city, but I would see if you can throw the law at them...state or federal, maybe they can have their license legally revoked for a few months...maybe there's a law something like, "preaching hatred against an identifiable group", or something similar......maybe there's a lawyer who would love to take on something like this, 'pro bono'...

The lack of cash flow would send a wonderful message about the consequences of irresponsible broadcasting...

   RE:RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Kevin K on 7/9/2003 at 7:19:24 PM
My, such caring, warm thoughts for fellow man. I wonder if these people realize they could be arrested for assult and battery should they do someting so stupid, then possibly be sued for doing this with intent to harm. The parks system could also be held accountable if such behavior is seen and not addressed. I thought after September 11th people in this country actually might start really thinking twice about how they treat each other. But no. You do not have to be best friends but it takes little effort to act to others as you wish for them to act unto you. It suprises me just how badly we continue to treat our fellow man. Every dog has his day. Those that harbor ill thoughts such as those mentioned will someday realize how ignorant they were. To the rest of us, enjoy. Kevin

   Three Strikes posted by John E on 7/9/2003 at 7:57:25 PM
This is the THIRD time I have heard of a Clear Channel Communications station DJ advocating "dooring" and otherwise attacking bicyclists. See, for example:


Although I strongly endorse free speech, the behaviour of these DJs is irresponsible and not much better than yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater.

I am going to ask the FCC to reconsider whether it is appropriate to allow one company to own so many radio stations, which broadcast on the PUBLIC airwaves.

   RE:Three Strikes posted by Dave on 7/9/2003 at 8:18:02 PM
Here in Chicago we have already had a case of "road rage", a couple of years ago that resulted in the driver of a SUV repeatedly run over a cyclist until he was dead. The driver was convicted of murder , but to encourage this sort of behaviour is malacious at best and criminal at worst. I hope the station will issue a apology.

   RE:RE:Three Strikes posted by sam on 7/9/2003 at 10:24:24 PM
Clearly--Clear Channel showld take quick action to see that this kinda radio is not repeated.It's in there best interest to show it was not company policy.E-mail them!--sam

   RE:RE:RE:Three Strikes posted by Randy on 7/9/2003 at 11:13:35 PM
I, of course, know little of the laws in your part of the world but I do know that any kind of life threatening behaviour or speach is against the law where I live. Perhaps the police could offer some advice on this issue. The best thing that I choose to do is be the best bicycle advocate that I can by being curteous even to those who are not. But I do feel both disgusted and angry from time to time when I see how absurdly careless and selfish we car drivers are. Yep, I drive a car too but I'm trying to protect you when I do.

   Hit them in their pocketbooks posted by Steven on 7/10/2003 at 3:55:10 AM
We are in the US and we should all be aware that while laudable to follow the 'correct' procedure to 'censure' these people, why not chase after their sponsors. Hit them in their pocketbooks as it would be. This is more likely to get a reaction than anything else.

   RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by David on 7/10/2003 at 10:39:04 AM
Can someone supply the URL of a reliable news source concerning this allegation? It's certainly serious, but I am not about to write letters urging action against someone on a more-or-less anonymous story on an internet bulletin board.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Keith on 7/10/2003 at 2:07:46 PM
Lois Cowan has informed me that the station has refused to produce transcripts or tapes of the shows. You'll have to decide for yourself whether this is simply made up. I suggest you contact Lois and judge her reliability for yourself. You could always qualify any letter with language like "I have read" or "I've been told" in conjunction with "if this is true."

   veracity of story posted by John E on 7/10/2003 at 2:24:58 PM
I have exchanged a couple of cordial emails with Lois and have no reason whatsoever to doubt her story, particularly since this is indeed the THIRD time (including KSJO in San Jose and KLOL in Houston) I have heard about this sort of BS from a Clear Channel station's immature, insensitive, inappropriate, improper, immoral, ill-informed, idiotic DJs.

In the interest of public safety, notify the FCC and go after the station's sponsors, license, manager, and DJs.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Ralph on 7/10/2003 at 7:17:06 PM
I heard the show. The thing is that this guy
Malone is an idiot. It really doesn't surprise me that he's capable of stupidity on this level. I only wish WMJI would give me a tape of the show so I can keep it around in case my lawyer & me need it to help us retire after some moron throws another beer bottle at me or hits me again with a door.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Edward in Vancouver on 7/10/2003 at 11:32:39 PM
Just read the whole posting, my guts and privates are frozen, brain gone numb. What city are you in? Cyclists are not considered humans, but moving targets? Lawyers can't smell blood/money? Politicians don't know an issue when it hits them in the face with a vengance?
Being somewhat informed of how "business" is done in the States, there will have to be a major lawsuit before John Q. Public takes notice or gives a sh**. Hope nobody on this site will have to make a sacrifice to get the ball rolling.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by shaking my head! on 7/11/2003 at 6:45:37 PM
How many lawyers are in any given group of cyclists?
More than you dream of mister!!
Probably off duty cops too. At least one! Or you can be sure so and so knows one!
Peace officers like to stay in shape also. I meet them too at the shops! "This is the one I use at home, Chris!"

Met a cycling off duty cop buying a new bike 2 weeks ago!
That's what he said to me!!
I didn't ask if he carries a gun while off duty. They do, I believe! They ride bikes too! I won't tell you what brands they ride and I don't think you are able to spot a policeman or policelady astride a bike. Bean somebody riding a bike? Do you know the odds of getting yourself in so much trouble you couldn't dream your way out of it?
I have hung around the shops and met the fellows and after the guy/gal leaves the shop I ask: What kind of work does he/she do?

Oh, a lawyer. is the answer a lof of the time.
Or a policeman! a big, musclular, bull of a man that can have you crying for your mama! My God!
You know, these new phones that take still AND streaming video can come in handy. THEY'RE AVAILAVBLE TODAY! GO GET ONE! You send in in a text message to another phone or to your computer or maybe even to another computer. Witnesses are a great thing to have and if one of the other cyclists in the group see's you getting beaned with a roll of coins they'll come to their aid! It has to be snuffed out, the person MUST be caught so me or my buddies don't get bothered either! (Oh, yes there also be lady peace officers AND lawyers out there and some of them are cyclists also! I have seen them in the shops too.)

Capture video of the driver taking off and then a shot of Marty there lying there hurt or bleading. Take that into the station and /or the law office!! Yes! Great idea!
Oh, Crap! You didn't think of that now did you? A witness with video!
If Bob whatsisface sees you getting bopped he'll know what to do. Imagine the victim saying: Oh yes, Tony here and I have been riding in this group for 11 years and Bob's a senior partner in the firm! Tony invited me to his wedding! I was his best man! We golf together too!
You bothered my pal Tony?
Cyclists stick together. They watch out for one another.
Young, professional, usually men and in a group of 30 I'll bet there is at least 1 lawyer in the bunch.
Bother a cyclist?
A incredibly dumb idea!

Go find a nest of hornets to mess around with instead! They don't practice law or carry vid phones they are not cops (peace officers) in plainclothes that ride every day. The African Honey Bee variety ain't nothing against a cross lawyer or a police officer!
Come to think of it there is a similarity there!
The police are professional drivers in a car, they have hours of sophisticated training for that. Ever see them handle a bike? Better than your average cyclists! Police on bikes are like hound dogs awheel! No lie! Armed, with radios, and professionally trained. What are you? A jerk who didn't know when to turn the dial!
Bother a cyclist?
You thinking right, son?
I tell you, I have heard some really dumb stuff on the radio. Horrifying and stupid as well as innapropriate crap than makes me turn the dial.
Keep in mind they want you to be all stirred up and call in. This is how it works, the nature of the radio biz. Still, some things are out of bounds and they do cross the line and get busted and removed.
I also have heard D.J.'S take calls from a listener and after 3/4ths of the way thru the call they let it be known subtly, very subtly that they are lawyers that listen to the radio and after they have gathered enough information from a stupid D.J. they take proper, legal action against that station and those behind the mike.

Just as soon as they learn who "the boss" is. Or who owns the station.

I have heard D.J.'s get themselves into hot water on the radio. I sit in the car and laugh and we all know that guy is done for. Sure enough! Next week there is a ....
3 seconds after the old, (now fired) D.J. has said on the air:

"I'm sorry."

I'm concerned for cyclists now. Yes.
I'm also certain whomever is so stupid to act upon some stupid thing said over a radio is going to get into a heap of trouble.
Technology and the nature of this group of people!
The odds are not good they'll get away with it!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Shaking my head on 7/11/2003 at 6:54:27 PM
The laws in Canada are better for the average pedestrian and I assume for cyclists too.

I remember the lady bus driver remarking at a guy crossing the street.
"Move it Mister! This ain't Toronto."
The laws are different there concerning pedestrians there.

I hope this sort of thing does not happen in Canada to cyclists there. Not being in Canada I am not aware what happens there.

Are there benches in Canada with advertisements for lawyers?
We have a picture of an alligator on the benches here with a 1-800 number!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Call to action posted by Shaking my head! on 7/11/2003 at 7:00:52 PM
I remember the story in the paper when one lady in England thought that new bicycles sold in stores should come mandatory with a bell included. She sued.
She won!
One person can make a difference.

AGE / VALUE:   Woodwards Atlantic Ladies Bike posted by: Lisa on 7/9/2003 at 4:31:31 PM
Hi, I have found an old ladies single speed back pedal brake bike at a store that is labelled Atlantic distributed by our old Canadian Woodward's department store. It seems pretty old, maybe 60's. Does anyone know anything about these bikes and how the manufacturer was and when they were made?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Woodwards Atlantic Ladies Bike posted by Tom on 7/10/2003 at 5:46:31 PM
Many of the Canadian, post war, department store bicycles wre manufactured by Vittoria Precision, however I am not familiar with the Woodward's bicyles. Perhaps you would have more response if you posted on the Balloon Tire and Middleweight page. Good luck!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Woodwards Atlantic Ladies Bike posted by JONathan on 7/11/2003 at 12:31:04 AM
Are there any names or numbers on the rear hub (axle housing; center of the wheel). Check on the rims near the valve stem for a name and model of rim. What size tires are there on it?
Sounds like an interesting bike. How does it ride?...JONathan

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Track??? posted by: John on 7/9/2003 at 1:48:39 PM
Hello to any and all Raleigh experts, help?!!?
I have recently purchased a track bike that was sold as a Schwinn Paramount. I don't feel the seller had any intention of a ruse, he just seems like a starving college student getting rid of stuff. The bike is has 70's Paramount decals, but, once I picked up the bike, I noticed the wrapover seatstays, the "CC" cutout in the bottom bracket, the fork crown and Campagnolo rear track dropout are very similar to pictures I have looked at. Does someone out there have a way to determine if this is actually a Raleigh Professional track bike ?? I am trying to determine a value for this misrepresented bike. Do I return it or keep it??
Thanks, John

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Track??? posted by David on 7/9/2003 at 6:20:14 PM
Provide more info; serial number (where is it stamped?), lug mfr, components, chrome plating, paint, head badge, "extra" holes in head for a badge?, ...

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Track??? posted by Warren on 7/9/2003 at 10:59:52 PM
It's tomato-tomatoe. If you find out what it is...say a Raleigh and you like the bike and the price was fair...keep it.

If you're unhappy, he should give you your money back, no questions asked. Just bring him documentation proving it is not a Schwinn. Maybe he'll knock the price down...although a Raleigh track bike is apt to be as nice as a similar period Paramount...maybe even better. It may not have as much book value but who's trying to make money here!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Track??? posted by John on 7/10/2003 at 4:58:51 AM
Thanks for the input,
Serial # A8624, stamped on the edge of the bottom bracket, drive side. The lugs look like the pictures of other Raleigh Pro track bikes, I'm not the lug expert. Rear Campy dropouts have 3 holes drilled in the upper portion, one large between 2 smaller. Seatbolt attatchment is a bit odd, one side is like the Campy seatbinder bolt, the other has a tapped and threaded hole, if it were drilled out larger it would be like a complete Campy bolt??
I can't quite tell if there are headbadge holes. It was suggested that the bike may have belonged to a Schwinn team sponsored rider, who, didn't want to loose his ride, so, he had it painted as a Schwinn. I heard that this was done often in the cycling world??
Thanks, John

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Track??? posted by Wayne on 7/10/2003 at 3:50:29 PM
If your bike frame is a Raleigh, it appears it was made in 1966. I am using the Retro Raleighs website as my source for this.
Check out;


I hope this helped,

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Track??? posted by John on 7/12/2003 at 4:38:26 AM
Thank you all, again, for your input, I have decided to keep the bike, I know it is a Raleigh Pro track bike, just too much evidence to substantiate this, although it looks like a Paramount, somebody even had a Schwinn headbadge on it at some point?? I will mention that it is a correct size for me, it is a nice ride, I took it for a spin in an uncrowded area, a couple laps on about a 10k loop, I like it :-), it's a keeper and if it gets scratched, so what!!!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Track??? posted by John on 7/12/2003 at 4:41:27 AM
Does anyone have an extra Raleigh headbadge, early 70's vintage??? maybe some rivets too??

MISC:   obscene @$$hole stalking again, baby killing stalking, UNM sueable for hate like crimes, "cr posted by: harrassed on 7/9/2003 at 6:56:37 AM
again, b-hole stalking, on these boards, and the zapatas net, xcruz, stalking, stalkers not talking of threatening people with jail, unemployment, the police, baby killers they are

AGE / VALUE:   Schwinn World Sport $$$$$$$$ posted by: Gralyn on 7/9/2003 at 1:32:52 AM
Well, I thought I received a shock when I saw a Ross Grand Tour in a thrift store for $75.....and really in shock when the next day - it was gone. Well, today I spot a ladies Schwinn World Sport....it wasn't that old....but wasn't new either....QR on front only. I think it had steel rims. It was $50!!! Usually, something like that is priced anywhere between $10 and $20. What a shocker. What will really be a shocker.....is if tomorrow - it's gone!!!!

Some other news though........the peugeot that someone had painted.....I mean painted the whole thing...bolts and all.....was still there at it's $35 price. (different store, though).

AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh-Reynolds-Japan frameset posted by: rick robbins on 7/8/2003 at 4:56:24 PM
LBS received a trade-in (for sale-cheap)on a Raleigh (made in Japan) that I was curious on the date of manufacture. The SS is N2G0302. It is made of 531 DB, has nutted brakes, cutouts in the long point lugs, under the BB cable guides, Campy cable stops, clamp on ft. der. I checked the SS database but wasn't clear on the year (possible '79?).


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh-Reynolds-Japan frameset posted by Wayne on 7/8/2003 at 9:04:39 PM
According to the serial number info that I have...
N is for Nottingham (factory where made)
2 is the last digit of the year (1972 or 1982)
G is the fortnight (G=7th digit X 14 = 98 or April 8)
0302 is the consecutive unit number for that day.
I got this dating system originally from the "Retro Raleighs" site, and so far it has not failed me for
Raleighs made from the mid 70's until the late 80's.
I hope this was of help.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh-Reynolds-Japan frameset posted by brandt on 7/9/2003 at 12:18:59 AM
Wayne - I have a Raleigh Super Course number I have never been able to figure out. It is simply 345724. I bought the bike new in 1973. Do you know of any rules that apply to that number?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh-Reynolds-Japan frameset posted by Ken on 7/9/2003 at 5:21:39 PM
please clarify how Japan got into it. Nottingham or Japan but not both please.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh-Reynolds-Japan frameset posted by Wayne on 7/10/2003 at 3:46:03 PM
Based on the serial number I do not believe it was made in Japan. I have dated more than a dozen bikes from that era using this system.
The only 3 factories I know of (for the first letter) are;
N for Nottingham England
W for Woksop (also England)
R for Canada.
I am still trying to find out what some of their other
factory codes were (like U.S.A. or any others).
Apparently in and around 1972/73 there was a crossover between numbering systems and some bikes didn't follow either the old or new system.
Brandt, from what you say, if the factory and date codes had been "accidently" left off, the 3 would agree with the year you bought that bike.
Unfortunately, at times they appeared to not follow their own system very well!
For more info on Raleigh serial numbers check out;


It is not a bad resource for this kind of thing.
Talk to you later,

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Raleigh-Reynolds-Japan frameset posted by Dave on 7/10/2003 at 6:29:20 PM
Yes , I have a '72 Raleigh Gran Prix but I found out the info from the Retro Raleigh website's '72 catalog and my bike was made for Raleigh by Gazelle of Holland. It has a all digit serial# w/o alpha characters.

WANTED:   schwinn paramount 30's-50's track posted by: ron on 7/8/2003 at 11:15:14 AM
any condition, thanks.

AGE / VALUE:   Canadian and Vintage bicycle web page posted by: Randy on 7/8/2003 at 10:55:08 AM
I'm not sure if it is OK to do this but I would like to invite anyone who is interested to visit a web page that I am in the process of building. I am really new to this game so don't expect too much yet. The site will focus on Canadian built bikes, however; all other brands will be considered for added content. Anyway, here is the web address. Hope to see you there. If you have any requests or ideas that would improve the content or user friendlyness, please let me know on these pages. Also, I would appreciate pictures and information pertaining to any and all Canadian made bicycles. I hope to be able to link to this forum. At any rate here is the address to my web page http://www.geocities.com/randyjawa

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Canadian and Vintage bicycle web page posted by GregE on 7/8/2003 at 2:01:22 PM
Looks like a site with potential, you're off to a great start! 2 things you might want to add: Canadian built Raleighs (I have a mid 80's Super Record) and a link to email you re: your site.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Canadian and Vintage bicycle web page posted by JONathan on 7/8/2003 at 5:35:07 PM
Great idea. I have a Nakamura road bike, which may be a Canada-built and I can get a picture of another bike that's a Kuwahara MTB, if you can use other than vintage LW's for content.
I need to check on a couple of TIG weld Peugeots, too. I have learned about the U-x(X) series from Canada and I think one may be the Canda version of the UE-8, although the plastic fenders were add-ons.
I think your plan is a sterling idea! Good luck, JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Canadian and Vintage bicycle web page posted by Randy on 7/8/2003 at 5:43:12 PM
Thanks for the advice Greg. I do have a few Canadian built Raleighs and they will soon be part of the site. I also plan to inlcude an e-mail address so that others can contact me directly. And to JONathan, I will try to include as much pertinent information as possible. I hope that, with help, I can create a good source of information about restoring these neat old bicycles. Any and all suggestions will certainly be considered. For what it is worth, the site was remarkably easy to put together and that is saying a lot. As of last week I knew absolutely nothing about how to do it. Now I dun it! Hope I can keep it going.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Canadian and Vintage bicycle web page posted by Rob on 7/8/2003 at 6:49:57 PM
Good start, Randy...and it'll be a useful resource...Photos with a good description seems to be the magic formula for a good website. Website can be a lot of work to maintain, especially if it gets a lot of visitors. I know it's early, but I wonder if "click to enlarge" photos would be a good idea?? Also, would any vintage lightweight that was marketed in Canada be a good approach?? But I guess it is always a bit fuzzy around the edges...I'm regularly running into obviously personal imports...Schwinns from the US; I have a Kalkhoff bought in Germany; I've seen quite a number of Favorits which were marketed in Canada, but came from Czechoslovakia. I'm currently trying to get some info on a bike called a "Drei Sterne"...mid 70's with Simplex components...I think it might be from East Germany, but I don't know at this point....

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Canadian and Vintage bicycle web page posted by Tom on 7/8/2003 at 11:10:15 PM
Great minds do think alike. Over the past couple weeks, I have started to put my recollections and knowledge to print, ostentatiously for a website. My focus is also Canadian vintage lightweights, with the emphasis on the boom period of 1970-1985.

Frankly, Rob's suggestion of including all lighweights marketed in Canada would be a daunting task. Restricting things solely to brands manufactured and assembled in Canada, I am already well oven two dozen marques!

Regardless, I want to commend you on a excellent and expiditious start.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Canadian and Vintage bicycle web page posted by Rob on 7/9/2003 at 12:08:38 AM
Yes, I think Tom is right...it's probably best to have good clear focus..then if time, energy and interest permit expand later...there are other sources for information on foreign makes...yet just thinking about Peugeots which have a strong interest to viewers of this website...and thanks to all you guys I've learned a lot about them in the last few months I didn't already, particularly with regard to CDN production...one immediately starts thinking of which were made in France and which in Canada, and what the differences are...oh well it's never easy and that's part of the reason why I find vintage lightweights are so interesting....