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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Continental II posted by: Bryant on 9/29/2003 at 11:14:40 AM
Hi all. I'm fixing up a 1978 Continental II that I picked up and I noticed that it had a nutted rear wheel. I thought Continentals had QRs on both. When I checked the databook, sure enough it came with only a front QR. My question is why would this be? Was the bike redesigned by the lawyers to ensure the wheels wouldn't fall off??

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Continental II posted by Gralyn on 9/29/2003 at 12:13:39 PM
My guess for the QR front-only: cost savings. For this instance, and considering 1978 - I would go with the cost savings more than fear of a law suit. Now, if that were a more recent vintage of bike - I would say certainly the threat of a law suit.

     Schwinn Continental II posted by John E on 9/29/2003 at 1:31:53 PM
If QR were a liability concern, they would have nutted the front wheel, not the rear.

A solid axle does save the manufacturer some money, many consumers would not notice until after the purchase was made, and most consumers care far more about having front QR than rear. If I owned your bike, I would replace the rear axle with a QR, on the grounds that all earlier Continentals after about 1961 had QR on both wheels.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Continental II posted by T-Mar on 9/29/2003 at 3:57:20 PM
The front wheel only quick release is an anti-theft feature. Most bicycle locks are long enough only to secure the rear wheel and frame. This leaves the front wheel as an quick and easy target for bike thieves. A quick release on the front wheel, allows the front wheel to be easily removed and postioned next to the rear wheel so that a lock can be used to secure the frame and both wheels to a sutitable object. The rear wheel does not have to be removed and therefore nuts are adequate.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Continental II posted by JONathan on 9/29/2003 at 4:45:46 PM
Speculation on Schwinn's reason for nutting the rear axle on that model is a long list of possibilities.
Personally, I can only present my findings on axles based on experience with both types. The solid axles are stronger and the nutted fastening is more secure. The convenience of transport and flat repairs make the QR axle desirable. To me, all other aspects are in favor of the nutted axle.
Just my opinion. The other consideration is wheel selection. I have few wheels of higher quality that have nutted axles.
Needless to say, I carry that once ubiquitous "dog bone". A note on personal esthetics; for some inexplicable reason, I think the nutted axles look cool, if the wheels are higher quality alloys. Just my 2.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Continental II posted by john on 9/29/2003 at 9:47:09 PM
What is a Continental II? I just picked up a 1973 Continental with QR front and rear, which I thought was a bit unusual. john

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Continental II posted by JONathan on 9/30/2003 at 12:07:35 AM
I have a '71 Continental with QR front and rear. The QR concept was very popular as an indicator of a bikes racing attributes.
I think it helped to sell a bike, even though a racer would probably not buy that model. Just speculating, but there were a lot of bikes that I would pick to race, before getting a continental. The Peugeot UO-8 was a lot closer to a racer than the continental, IMHO.
I wouldn't go so far to say pretentious, but it really is a chuckle in retrospect. As a "pounder", the conti is better off with nutted axles.
I have never ridden a conti. Mine is in need of major tuning. It was the dirtiest bike that I ever got. The yellow color looked brownish orange from all the thick layer of dirt. Surprising that it cleaned up to a respectable appearance...quite nice, actually. The paint is very durable stuff.
Judging from my 1972 Super Sport, which I have ridden, the UO-8 feels like a better ride to me. I am assuming that the Super Sport is a higher rated bike than the continental.
I'll fix it up and mothball it for a few years, as part of my archival collection. They have historical value to me.

   Peugeot UO-8 vs Varsinental posted by John E on 9/30/2003 at 1:06:32 AM
I commuted for a few months on a ca. 1973 Varsity with aluminum rims and a 6-speed freewheel, then replaced it with a comparable-vintage Peugeot UO-8, with aluminum cranks and rims. The Peugeot was indeed a more pleasant ride (everywhere, not just on the 12 percent climb), but the frame did crack (right chainstay, between the tyre and chainring clearance dimples) after 4 years of the daily grind up that hill. I suspect the Varsity frame would still be going strong, had I kept it.

In fact, the Peugeot UO-8 frame was probably slightly better than my 1971 Nishiki Competition, built a few years before Kawamura finally figured out how to build a world-class frame.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Continental II posted by Bryant on 9/30/2003 at 10:56:53 AM
John, a Continental II is the 1978 version of a Continental. In 1977, Schwinn didn't have a Continental, it had a Sierra. So in 1978 I guess the Continental made a return as a Continental II.
The Bike has been torn apart, cleaned up, lubed and put back together. The front rim was bent so replaced that. Rides fine. I think it may replace my 72 Varsity as my beater bike.
Thanks for everyone's insight.

AGE / VALUE:   24 HOLE WHEEL posted by: Kevin K on 9/28/2003 at 3:55:15 PM
Hi all. Question please. I've personally seen 28 hole wheels, but do 24 hole rims exist? If so in 26" or 700's. Responses appreciated. Thanks, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   24 HOLE WHEEL posted by Darryl on 9/28/2003 at 4:07:19 PM
Good question. I have a set of vintage Specialized 24 hole hubs, but having problem finding 24 spoke rims. Can I use a 32 hole rim and leave out 4 pairs of spokes at equal distances around the rim? In other use 6 holes, skip 2, use 6 holes etc.etc.?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   24 HOLE WHEEL posted by T-Mar on 9/28/2003 at 4:57:54 PM
They are out there (in both 650C & 700C), but are a little harder to find. The recent trend towards lower spoke count is making them more available. You see tham all the time at triathlon events. try a shop that specializes in triathlon bicycles.

The MAVIC Cosmos is a fairly common wheelset these days. It uses CD4 Open Pro rims in a 24/28 front/back spoke configuration. I assume the 24H rims are available separately

There is also a very good Australian company, Velocity ( http://www.velocityusa.com/catalog/velocity_rims_road.html )that produces several rims in 24 hole configurations. I have used there Deep V rims on my TT bicycles and they are excellent.

There are several others, but these these two are probably the most widely used and provide good value. If neither meets your needs, let me know.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   24 HOLE WHEEL posted by Keith on 9/29/2003 at 4:13:41 PM
The Mavic site does not list Open Pros as available with 24h. FIR also makes a 24h aero clincher: http://www.redroseimports.com/rri_fir_rims.html

AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by: Randy on 9/28/2003 at 1:46:28 PM
I started collecting vintage lightweight bicycles in Jan. 2003. The other day I paused in my addiction driven behavior to ask myself a simple question. “Why do I collect old bicycles?”

I can’t ride them all. I certainly can’t maintain them all. Storage space is ever a problem. My wife, I’m sure, questions my sanity. And I already have about ten really nice bicycles that fall into the higher end category. So why do I make regular trips to the landfill site or ghost around thrift shops on a weekly basis looking for that next “treasure”? This kind of thinking forced me to look more closely at the fundamental issue – why do people collect anything?

I like to ride my bicycles and I like to try out different bikes for comparative purposes. Collecting bikes gives me opportunity to do both. I like to fix things up and bicycles are almost the most perfect “fix me up machines” on earth today. They are easy to move around and store(unless you have fifty of them), plentiful(an understatement), easy to get parts for(as a rule), and inexpensive(this is going to change). They are easy to work on(except for stuck seat posts). These are just a few of my reasons for having so many. But none of these reasons explains why I want another bicycle to add to my collection.

Investigation into why people collect offered some interesting considerations, many of which have great merit, however; one thought seemed to form the fundamental basis for the collecting behavior.

Through necessity, we have learned to be hunters and gathers. We have also learned that sometimes, hunting and gathering is not as rewarding as it needs to be, if we are to survive. With this in mind, we put aside(collect) needed stuff for those inevitable times of need in absence of supply. As I considered this notion, I reflected on the behavior of my children and grandchildren. Every one of them, very early in life, started a rock collection of pretty pebbles. The “need to collect” is there. There are, of course, criteria required before the “need to collect” kicks in but once the criteria are met, the behavior starts up.

But why bicycles? What are the criteria required to merit collecting behavior? I would be very interested in hearing what other have to say about this.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by Kevin K on 9/28/2003 at 3:05:12 PM
Hi all. First, collecting as a hobby is safe. Hoarding on the other hand isn't. I've a nasty respiratory disease from a past occupation. Several physicians I've seen in the past have asked me if I have a hobby. When I explained my collecting old Schwinn bikes they've found it to be interesting. Good overall for mind and body. We are each driven as individuals to be individuals. To seek out our own idenity. If collecting fills that bill and does not become an obsession, or a major drain on family income, then great. When it causes problems between a spouse and house, it needs to be dealt with. Find a situation that makes both parties happy and stick with it. If you can show profit from the hobby, or at least you can break even it's easier on all involved. Just keep your priorities straight and it'll be a wonderful, rewarding hobby. Just my 2 cents. Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by T-Mar on 9/28/2003 at 3:37:07 PM
For myself, the bicycle is the pinnacle of of engineering. It is a the most efficient form of transportation ever devised. As a mode of transportation, it provides us with a degree of freedom from society. However, it a transport that enhances the bond with nature.

It also provides a very high level of control to the user. After all, your own body is the power source. Consequently, it is also a very healthy and environmentally friendly mode of transportation.

From an enginneering standpoint it is sufficiently simple that the maintenance and upgrades are well within the capability of almost everybody. The basic concepts are simple, so that the solutions can be approached from so many different, novel designs.

The bicyle is simple enough that economical considerations still permit a significant level of human involvement and craftsmanship in the manufacture. The canvas of the bicycle, and particularly the frame, allows the craftsman to exhibit his skills in a multitude of artistic fashions.

The bicyle is also simple enough that it is affordable. Enough so, that purchasing a current, state-of-the-art sample is not out of the realm of most people. I may not be able to afford Michael Schumaker's F1 Ferrari or Jeff Gordon's Winston Cup car, but I can afford Tyler Hamilton's Cervelo (personal preference and Canadian loyalty over Lance's Trek). Hang, I can even drive it on the street.

Ultimately, I collect bicycles because they are simple, low cost, efficent transportation that permits a healthy and environmentally friendly lifestyle, while permitting diverse diverse engineering and artistic expression. 'Nuff said!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by gary m on 9/28/2003 at 4:15:31 PM
Like Kevin, i was a Diesel truck mechanic for 18 yrs. Long before Asbestos was recognized as a hazard, trucks virtually ran on it. gaskets, brakes, clutches, insulations, shit was everywhere, and i did clutches, brakes, headgaskets constantly. now i have the strength to lift an ox, but not the lung power to move it 2 feet. so i had to find something lighter to work on, and opened a bike shop. and for some unknown reason, i always liked old things, and bikes as well, so the next thing i know i have 300 of them. Now, i have had a change of plans. looks like they are gonna hit ebay. Sent the 55 Jag out for paint, and will be painting and selling the whole herd looks like, except the ones in original paint.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by Kevin K on 9/28/2003 at 5:41:55 PM
Hi Gary. Sorry to hear you suffer in this manner. I know it only too well. I painted Corvettes in the 70's. We would use asbestos and resin to build fender flares and spoilers on custom Vettes, grind it into desired shape, then finish off with cloth and resin. I also am still as strong as an ox ( My wife says smell, look or act like one too. Kidding )Anyway, life goes on. Good luck with future plans. Keep smiling. Kevin K

     Why collect bicycles posted by John E on 9/28/2003 at 7:57:15 PM
I have one mountain bike (1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10), one cyclocross/transportation bike (1972 Peugeot UO-8 with 27 x 1-3/8" knobbies), one transportation bike at the office (1980 Peugeot PKN-10), one classic (1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo), and one club bike (1981 Bianchi Campione d'Italia). The Capo is a collectible (high-quality and rare); the Schwinn may be. The other three simply provide a practical, enjoyable mode of transportation. I do greatly enjoy the differences in ride quality and handling and appreciate being able to select the right bike for any given ride.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by luke on 9/28/2003 at 9:55:15 PM
hello,i have wondered the same as this weekend i built a 10 by 15 storage shed for my 15 vintage bikes.it was guitars there for a while then last year i picked up a cheap schwinn le tour for 9 bucks. i find the history and health reasons the best about collecting and restoreing bicycles.
and then the rideing of a bike that will never be made again.the looks you get.the questions your asked.
the pride and fun you carry as you ride in to each season,every year.
yea! thats why i collect bicycles,
thanks luke

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by Gralyn on 9/28/2003 at 10:34:14 PM
There is the "collecting" vs. "hoarding". I see some folks who hoard - they have so many bikes...they just gather them up for no apparent reason. They don't do anything at all to them....just buy them - then put them up. I feel collectors are more intimate and personal with each bike in their collection. Each one has it's own story. I may have around 50 bikes - but I know each one of them. I know where I got it, what equipment it has, etc. I have been over every inch of it, completely re-built it, etc.

It is, for me, an economical hobby. I may spend overall - somewhere between $5 and $6 per week on average. That's not bad for such a fun hobby. I would hope that eventually, the hobby would support itself. But at least it's not putting a financial burden on the family.

But one thing I have noticed: collecting is getting more and more difficult - because I am seeing fewer and fewer bikes available

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by sam on 9/29/2003 at 1:02:41 AM
Three of us were talkin today--we decided to take turns swaping eachothers bikes--be a lot cheaper and we'd always be getting a new find that we could start to restore!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by Gralyn on 9/29/2003 at 12:10:00 PM
Some other aspects of collecting:
I have passed over some decent "finds" in the past - but as I learn more and more about the old bikes - it becomes more likely I won't pass over any good ones. The converse of this - finding a particular bike - but not being sure of what it is - but buying it anyway - just in case it is something - then finding it's not anything.....yes, I've picked up a couple they way.

There was also the time when I used to try and decide which bike to get - because there would be several to choose from - and looking back, I wonder why I didn't buy several of them....because now, I never encounter that problem: I'm lucky if I ever find one bike.

I did get to a point where I would pass over the Schwinn World, and World Sport: I had plenty of them, I didn't feel they were collectable, and I couldn't really re-sell them to support the hobby. However, with bikes getting so scarce - I did pick up a World Sport a few weeks ago - mainly for the alloy wheels, the brakes, and a few other parts.

Then there are other bikes I have picked up: like the Viscount I got the other week - For me personally, I considered it something desirable for my collection. I could possiby re-sell it - but I don't really want to.

There are other bikes - like the RB-1: I had no idea what it was - but I knew it was lightweight, and it had some good alloy components, and 700C wheels - so I grabbed it up...and at the time - thinking I could possibly use it for parts, maybe build it as a fixie, etc. Then, once I researched it - and after I went over the bike - cleaning and polishing, tuning, etc: I had one really sharp bike! I could sell it - and REALLY support my hobby - but I don't want to sell it - I like to ride it!

I don't like to collect any bikes I can't ride. I like to be able to choose any bike from my collection - hop on it and ride! I just wish I had a better place to ride them - with less traffic.

Storage: this has got the be the biggest challange for me. Space-wise I think I'm OK. If I re-organized my garage - I would do much better on space. But my biggest issue is the humidity. There's just too much humidity in my garage. I wish I had a better facility.

But why do I collect? I'll list some reasons....but not in order of importance:
1) I love riding! And it's good exercise.
2) I love bicycles!
3) As a kid - I wanted a lightweight racing bike (10-speed) - but couldn't afford it. (the first thing I did when I got out of college - was buy myself a decent bike....and I still have it today!)
4) It's an inexpensive hobby
5) I can do most all the work on them myself - it's not too complicated - and as I add more and more tools - it gets even easier.
6) It allows me to work with my hands.
7) I can customize, mix and match - be creative if I want to.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by Dave on 9/29/2003 at 3:14:37 PM
I guess what started this for me was a '72 Mercier that a friend gave me. He had destroyed the cottered bottom bracket, but after installing a modern cottered one and 27" alloy wheels, I found out I had a light and very forgiving riding machine. I have to keep the herd down to about 10 but by selling,(more like giving), away other bikes people in my area can also find out how much better vintage LW bikes can be. I say share the wealth!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by Ron on 9/30/2003 at 12:50:35 AM
Like John E, each of my bikes is completly different. Each one fits a different purpose. I have a sporty bike (1984 Miyata 310) that no one in the family can keep up with (yet), a mountain bike (1986 Schwinn Sierra) that pulls an Adams Trail-a-bike, a 3 speed (1972 AMF/Steyr-Daimler) that will probably see more use when my son outgrows the Trail-a-bike. Since I converted a sport-touring bike into a hybrid for my wife, I'd like one of them, too. If I find the right one, I might even add a balloon tire to the mix. I don't collect bikes to have one of every paint scheme or every model from one manufacturer. I am not worried about collectability as much as ridablity.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Why collect bicycles posted by DannyJoe on 9/30/2003 at 4:01:23 PM
I had around me 6 bike's which I bought and kept over the last 20 year's but never considered myself a collector until I was earth bound recovering from knee surgery. I started going to auction's on weekend's with the hope of picking up an old bike to ride. At first I thought I needed a balloon tired bike, bought a few, the next sale would have an old lightweight roadbike, add a couple more and throw in a musclebike or six. I wanted all the bike's I ran across, I've been collecting for almost 2 year's now and have restrained myself somewhat from early impulse buying to just be buying phase. It is an inexpensive hobby, for under $350(US) my 50 or so bike's are at best a nice mix of styles I can jump back and forth too.

I still have a hard time passing up a free bicycle even if only for a single part.

I made a promise to my daughter I would start spending more time with her mother and less with the bike's, which I should.

AGE / VALUE:   Never mind the Butler (Claude) posted by: Mike Patterson on 9/28/2003 at 2:42:44 AM
OK, the Cluade Butler is nice but the same vendor has item #2193524622. A 1938 Merlin Continental!

Once again, not a vendor, not a relative (But I wish I was so I could influence a better price)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   French Foreign Legion Cycling Jersey, on topic of Ebay posted by Titlist on 9/28/2003 at 4:00:19 PM
First off; congrats to Team Canada in the Football World Cup, ( FIFA Frauenfussball-Weltmeisterschaft 2003 ) , curious, something I have never seen before, a French Foreign Legion Cycling Jersey, so it says, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2194215405&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 ; and I don't think, the seller, put it in any cycling category. Of course, unique jerseys aplenty, my personal favorite, a jersey I have, for the US Disabled Team, not to flashy, expensive, but has the stars and stripes, good for holidays. And once in a while, I work with these kids. By the way, couldn't find link I wanted, but this is in same area of interest, http://www.ushf.org/. Course, now, I don't need so many jerseys, even if some are spectacular,

just said that on the topic of ebay, but the French Legion jersey, out of Germany, starting out fairly high and often, one can find the same thing elsewhere, Ebay was auctioning the NIKE jersey, Tour De France, with a map of France on it, think it sold for a rather sizeable amount and our LBS had it, for about half of what it went for.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   French Foreign Legion Cycling Jersey, on topic of Ebay posted by Titlist on 9/28/2003 at 4:14:31 PM
Furthermore, on cycles, sort of as to why collect them, in a way, I saw someone write somewhere, they are a time capsule of the past, good example, the 3 speeds, or this Alta Romana on ebay right now, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3628969255&category=2904 ; takes you to the era, maybe country as well.

But, I mentioned the Disabled team above, this is how universal cycling is, open to so many different groups, and a child is going to relate to a bike, and God Bless them, the aged as well.

And the way, one can find a niche to collect, 3 speeds, or what ever is your interest. I dearly like Road Bikes, a world of it's own, but the overall potential of interest is so big, aside from that. Just my 3 cents

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Lightweight Categories & Levels posted by: T-Mar on 9/27/2003 at 3:01:01 PM
In an earlier thread, JONathan, suggested we need to re-evaluate and attempt to standardize on some terms when describing bicycles. I thought this dserved a new thread, rahter than be buried in his Dawes thread.

I agree, wholeheartedly with JONathan. There is a negative connotation to terms like "low end". It implies a poor quality product. Personally, I have preference for the term "entry level" , but there are limitations to that too. For instance, Cinelli’s least expensive model is definitely not an entry level bicycle to most people. I don’t know as "base" or "standard" would be a better term. It may be a base Cinelli, but most people would not consider it a base bicycle.

In order to properly describe the bicycles, I feel there is need to categorize the bicycles by function, as well as level. To-day, there are a myriad of possible bicycle categories. Looking at the 2004 Trek line-up, I see four basic categories, twenty-five sub-categories and a total of 77 models! Since we are dealing with vintage lighweights, I don’t think we need to go that far. I did not include mountain, juvenile and hybrid bicycles as they are not traditional subject matter for this page and would only complicate matters. Here are my proposals for categories:

1) Competition: Reserved for bicycles intended for amateur or professional racing. Identifiers would include tubular tires, dropped bars and narrow saddle. Sub-categories would include road, track and cyclo-cross.

2) Touring: Reserved for bicycles intended for non-competitive, multi-day rides. Identifiers would include clincher tires, dropped bars, narrow saddle and eyelets for both racks and fenders.

3) City: Reserved for bicycles intended for commuting or inter-urban travel. Identifiers include clincher tires, upright or flat handlebars and mattress saddles. Folding bikes would be a sub-category.

4) Sports: Reserved for bicycles for intended for general recreational and fitness use, that do not fit into any of the above four categories.

Regarding the model levels, here are my proposals.

a) Base/standard model: The least inexpensive model offered by a manufacturer in any category, regardless of price. In the event that a manufacture produces only one model in a category , it would be considered a base/standard model.

b) Intermediate model: In the event that a manufacturer produces more than two models for a particular category, then models in the middle of the range would be considered intermediate models.

c) Deluxe model: The most expensive model in the category. In the event that the manufacturer produces only two models in a category, the higher model would be considered a deluxe model. This term should be used only for models of non-competition bicycles.

d) Professional model: The most expensive model in the competition category. In the event that the manufacturer produces only two competition models, the higher model would be considered a professional model. This term should be used only for models of competition bicycles.

Most of us are familiar with the 1970s Peugeot line-up, so let’s use this marque as a test to see how the categories and levels fare.

A08: Base/standard sports model.
U08/UE18: Deluxe sports model.
UE8/UE18: Base/standard touring model.
UP41: Base/standard city bike
PA10: Base/standard competition model
PR10: Intermediate competition model
PX10: Professional competition model

I realize the above categories and levels are far from perfect or complete. For instance tandems, depending on their intent, could fit any category. Also, if a manufacturer produces four versions of sports bicycles, both the second and third models in the line-up would be considered intermediate models. I’m sure there are other cases which will not fit neatly. It’s difficult to construct something that is simple, yet complete and we may never achieve it. If nothing else, the above can be used as a starting point for further discussion and development. JONathan, I hope this helps more than it confuses matters.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Lightweight Categories & Levels posted by Titlist on 9/27/2003 at 10:20:41 PM
Tom has a good list there, may I add, I feel, in a general way, an additional identifier for a Category #2 Bicycle, Touring, would be a Triple Chainring on the front crank.

Too, for Touring, and after all, we are talking "vintage", what about Riser Bars? I agree this is the exception to the rule, it blows smoke in to the conventional definition of a Touring Bike. Many would say, Drop Bar Randonneurs, will be for a Serious Tour, one lasting a few days. Riser, well, a day trip maybe. Most of the books I have, referred to Drop Bars as well. Richard Ballantine's classic, "Richard's 21st Century Bicycle Book" states on page 278, and I am going to quote a little, even some extemperaneous material;

"Choice of bike depends on the kind of touring you do. Classic road touring bikes have wide range of gears, mounting points for pannier racks and fenders, and cantilever or V-brakes, though you might get lucky and find a model with disc brakes. If you travel light, a road sport bike will be quicker, and if all you carry is a credit card, then you can fly along on a lightweight road racing bike. Of course if you awnt to be able to lope along and at the same time carry a fair bit of gear and be comfortable, a recumbent or HPV is a strong contender (okay, this to me is a bit out of the general "lightweight" vintage category, a bent I mean)(continuing) These machines were made for the open road and are especially suitable for long distance rides.

For an all-around touring machine my personal favorite choice is a lightweight mountain bike. ...

Almost every large manufacturer now produces a model that is essentially a light mountain bike fitted for touring (again, argument of current vs. vintage). A common feature are multi-position handlebars, and these can be a real asset on long rides. (end of quote).

Here is a Peugeot on Ebay, with risers, the seller calls a touring bike, also a Mixte and much like the Peugeot discussed about a week ago. I agree generally tourers are going to have drops; but I think, this has been the rule since the seventies, so with vintage lws, there are exceptions.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Lightweight Categories & Levels posted by Titlist on 9/27/2003 at 10:23:16 PM
link being http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3628458425&category=7298

   RE:RE:RE: 3 Ring Circus posted by Titlist_Tomasso on 9/28/2003 at 1:19:51 AM
Maybe 3 Chain Rings, is a modern convention as well. I have at times, wished to put a 3 ringer in place of my Stronglight crank, but no! that is a classic, you replace that, it kind of destroys the integrity of the bike, okay, so the parts are interchangeable, maybe I'll go to the trouble, if I ever go to the Himalayas, Alpe d'Juez, the Rockies? I kind of like at the retro velos site, that quotation from one of the early Tour de France riders, dissing such multiple gears as nonsense. You wanna climb? As difficult as it may be to be disciplined, deep breathing is crucial ; but has to be practiced, that is the part, not easy to do. I put 3 chain rings on the Raleigh Super Tourer, I've got to worry about chain slack, about possibly now, a new front derailleur, possibly the rear, the hub... maybe the more sage, would tell me it isn't this much problem.

   RE:RE:RE:RE: 3 Ring Circus posted by Titlist on 9/28/2003 at 1:24:21 AM
furthermore, speaking of 3, the 3 speed Shimano Tri Star motobecane, was a real velo-city model today, with some SA controlled 2 wheelers today. I saw the Fuji post, not long ago, written in such a way, made me think twice, the blue steel one is at the bottom of the pail. Those SA's, and I got on a friends as well, haven't seen anything but reflectors from the Tri Star!

   : 3 Ring Circus posted by gary m on 9/28/2003 at 1:44:58 AM
WELL. i have been installing 3sp chainrings, long cage derailleurs, etc on road bikes now for over 2 yrs for extrememly happy customers. with a 11 tooth bottom, a 52 or 54 tooth is just useless for most people. go to a mountain bike front chainwheel, with about 48 teeth, and a super low bottom ring adds a much needed width AND a better ratio spacing. Sure 54 to 11 will hog the highway like mad, but these folks want to cruise along, point, chat, and excercise with freinds. try it. you wont go back. if you need tall, order a set with 54 on it, but the additional range provided by having an actual 9 useable ratios vs 6 is a much needed releif for the occaisional tourist.

   3 Ring Circus posted by John E on 9/28/2003 at 2:18:39 AM
Actually, 48/13 makes a superb top gear of 96" on a mountain bike, 100" on a road bike. Most nonracers would be much better off with 48-34 (or the 48-45-34 I put on my Peugeot PKN-10) instead of the ubiquitous 53-39 combination.

   RE:: 3 Ring Circus posted by Titlist on 9/28/2003 at 2:33:36 AM
I agree, sounds good;

But what would the bicycle think of me in the morning? I could never look at it straight in the Simplex Downtube shifters; it's not that kind of a bike.

   RE:RE:: 3 Ring Circus posted by JONathan on 9/28/2003 at 5:40:31 AM
Makes sense to me, Tom. Well done. I think a lot of cross-talk centers around there being two distinct perspectives. How fast can you go and how smooth can you get down the road.
Personal preference places my Schwinn "traveler" above my Raleigh "technium" for my style of ride. Having to pay attention to the craft detracts from the sailing, in my book. So, which one is a better bike on an absolute scale?
Then, again, as has been put forth earlier in a thread about "up-grades" to place the bike well above it's original state. My varsity (one '77) is a good example of an improved bike with alloy components and brakes that are up to the task.
Your earlier post covered the idea of "craftsmanship" as a function of designed purpose. Going with that direction makes sense when thinking about a scoring system for a bike. Academics aside, the main reality is in the componentry and level of fine tuning to make the best running system to compliment the frame.
I was thinking about a general classification system for "rideability" (whatever that is). There are bikes that handle badly and will not stay tuned, if they can even be tuned. They work, but only to discourage a potential recruit from having anything to do with bicycling.
So, we can start there. How about something like a numeric rating; "A+B"; where "A" is the frame and forks and "B" is the functionality and durability of components.
Example: A '77 Raleigh "record" handles smoothly enough, so "A" could be "5". The original components would say be about "4". That gives it a score of "9"; the max. would be "20" (10+10). The scale could be adjusted for refinement. My values are arbitrary and just pose the concept. Now, let's put a Cyclone rear and Mavic alloy wheels and hp touring tires on the bike.
The score would be (5 + 8)= 13. A much improved bike, to be sure. Of course there would be separation for design purpose and open category for the "decathlete" of bike. If you look at horse event scoring, you have a good idea of how refined the rules can be set up. As you so eloquently put forth, a parallel system as opposed to a pyramid structure; the latter imposing a selective
function as the basis for evaluation. How's that idea?
Thanks, JONathan
BTW, I agree with Gary and John E. The 52/13(14) gear is high for me, and I ride everyday for several miles. About 10% is in the topend, the advantage of the tighter ratios in the middle gears is of great advantage to my riding style...point-A-to-point-B with a smile.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Lightweight Categories & Levels posted by Ron on 9/28/2003 at 2:29:45 PM
I think that the different designations should be reletive to the bike's intended user, not to the other bikes in a company's line. If a company only makes one model of bike, that is a professional racing model, it is less confusing to call it a profesional than to call it a base model. "Entry level" might be a better description than "Base". Entry level impies first time buyer, lower price and equipment. Some companies don't make anything in this class. Some companies don't make anything that would be considered Deluxe or Professional. For some companies, all their bikes might fall into one catagory.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Lightweight Categories & Levels posted by T-Mar on 9/28/2003 at 4:38:50 PM
Titlist and Ron both have good points.

A touring bike should probably include triple chainrings and cantilevers. Maybe wide-range gearing would be a more acceptable identifier than triple chainrings? Regardless, these charactweristics are only SUGGESTED guidelines to help the owner identifier the intended use.

Ron has a good point regarding defining levels as to intended use. However, there are also pitfalls to this approach. For instance, during the 70's boom Cinelli produced three models. Now, the PX-10 was Peugeot's professional competition bicycle by both reletive position in the margue and intended use. Many would argue that any of the 3 Cinelli models were better than a Peugeot PX10. Does that make all three Cinelli models professional competiton bicyles? Or is it better to describe them as the base, intermediate and professional Cinelli competition models? In fact, Cinelli never sponsored a racing team, so can we legitimately call any of the Cinelli models a professional competition bicycle? Defining the level by intended use, as opposed to relative position in a manuifacturer's line-up is a Catch 22 situation. Neither approach has more merit than the other, it's just a different point of view. JONathan was looking for somebody to stick a stake in the ground as a yardstick and basis for discussion. I made an arbitrary choice and planted that stake.

Perhaps JONathan is on the right track by adding a rating sytem in addition to category and level. Category would be by intended use, level would be by relative position within the manufacturer's line, and rating would be relative to the stat-of-the-art for that time period. Thus bicycles could be assessed realtive to models in their own line-up and with those of other marques. I've already got a points rating sytem developed and am willing to plant another stake. However, it deserves another thread and may take a while to type up. Check back to-morrow, when I open another can of worms.

I also agree that many mountain bikes and hybrids make excellent touring bicyles, with minor revisions. While many bicycles can be used satisfactorily for any number of uses, for the clarity's sake, they should be described relative to their intended use. Lance could probably still beat most of the peloton, even on sports bicycle, but still doesn't make it a competion bicycle.

    Lightweight Categories & Levels posted by John E on 9/28/2003 at 8:09:09 PM
Since I am one of those horrid folks who builds frankenbikes with non-original components, I am uncomfortable with the concept of categorizing the entire bicycle. I either buy a bike for the parts and give the frame away, or I buy the bike specifically for the frame, worrying far more about what it can become with the "right" mix of upgraded components than what it was in its original state. The SunTour derailleurs on my Peugeots give me an "east meets west" optimization. A lowly UO-8 frame is actually good enough to justify a modest investment in used aluminum cranks and rims.

A mixed tubeset frame (e.g. Bianchi Columbus TreTubi or Peugeot "Reynolds 531 3 tubes renforces") is cost-effective and rides just as well as its top-of-the-line cousins, but it may never be a high-priced collectible. In this case, the categorization is useful, as long as the buyer is clear about his/her objectives and the merciless law of diminishing returns.

   RE: Lightweight Categories & Levels posted by Dave on 9/29/2003 at 4:26:02 PM
I'm with John E. I have already created a great commuter bike out of a '64 Varsity with 700c alloy wheels,Dura-Ace rear derailler and a new Specialized saddle. Also my '72 Grand Prix Raleigh has Shimano DT shifters, Raleigh brand Suntour front/rear deraillers,white Blumels fenders, Shimano Sora crankset, 3TTT handlebar/stem combo and 700c alloy wheels. With the original Weinmann centerpull brakes the bike IMHO has the best of both old and new technologies, it shifts much better than the old setup and stops as good as the new.

AGE / VALUE:   1986 Bianchi Modiale (Mondiale?) posted by: Steve on 9/27/2003 at 6:46:18 AM
I am looking at a very nice looking Bianchi road bike. It is said to be a 1986 Modiale (Mondiale?). It has all Campy componenets and is like new. Is this a good entry level bike at $400? It was apparently purchased new for a bit under $2000. Is it an Italian or Japanese bike? Does that make a difference? I am retiring my old 1964 Specialissima to the wall for a new daily rider and seem to be way out of date. Any help? Thank you very much.

     1986 Bianchi Modiale (Mondiale?) posted by John E on 9/28/2003 at 2:22:49 AM
It sounds like a fitting update of your beloved Specialissima. At that original price and with the Campag. components, it is almost definitely Italian, rather than Japanese. If the BB is Italian-threaded and the tubing is Columbus, it is definitely Italian and probably worth $400. My next-level-down 1981 Bianchi Campione d'Italia (Columbus TreTubi, Ofmega crankset and hubs, Campag. derailleurs, Modolo brakes) originally sold for around $800.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sean Kelly's Ride? posted by: Titlist_Tommaso on 9/27/2003 at 2:31:50 AM
Pray Tell, may I pick the minds here, once again, see, if anyone knows, what SEan Kelly rode in his esteemed career. Forever, I know he was on that SKIL team, but not the make of his bike.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sean Kelly's Ride? posted by DannyJoe on 9/27/2003 at 3:16:00 AM
For a period of time he rode with Vitus(KAS) & Concorde(PDM),I'm sure there were more.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sean Kelly's Ride? posted by T-Mar / Tom on 9/27/2003 at 3:57:23 AM
When Sean road for Skil (1985), the bicyles were labelled as Mercier. Earlier, for SEM (1983), they were marked as France Loire (France Loire is the company that manufactures the Mercier brand). Frankly, the bikes from this period look suspiciously like re-badged Vitus frames.

When he switched to the KAS team (1986-1988), the bikes were labelled KAS, but a Vitus decal appeared on the top tube. From 1989-1991, the PDM team bikes were Concorde.

I'll have to dig deeper to find earlier and later info, but this is a start.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sean Kelly's Ride? posted by Titlist on 9/27/2003 at 12:59:17 PM
Danny Joe and T=Mar, Tom, Thanks that's about all I need. I once visited Kelly's website, the info is out there if I search it out. Just wanted to know, if anyone happened to know that info and I am appreciative for the responses.

Actually, seems to me, finding the make, model of what someone rides, isn't as readily available as the teams one rode with during their professional career. Surely, there is a book on Kelly somewhere as well. I don't know, if Lance Armstrong, for example, mentions Merlin bikes is what he rode at an early point in his career in his book, but many will tell you that.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sean Kelly's Ride? posted by T-Mar on 9/27/2003 at 3:48:31 PM
I have seen two books on sean Kelly. The first, simply titled "Kelly" is a biography by David Walsh. The second, "Sean Kelly - A Man for All Seasons" is a collection of photos by Graham Watson with sean Kelly providing narrative.

Before you plunking down your hard earned cash, you may want to try your library or an inter-library loan. Thanks to Rob for this tip.

You're correct about the detective work required to determine what make was actually underneath the often fallacious decals. On that note, I just found a photo in a old 1983 Winning magazine, showing Kelly from behind, leaving leaving a time trial starting ramp. You can just make out two, tiny Vitus stickers on the seatstays, above the brake bridge. I was resonably confident that the France Loire bicycles were Vitus, but this would seem to confirm it.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Sean Kelly's Ride? posted by Titlist_Tommas0 on 9/28/2003 at 12:23:43 AM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0760315531/qid=1064706813/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/103-3625075-0003830 ; apparent co-author, on this book, A century of cycling

AGE / VALUE:   William Jayne road bike? posted by: Robert on 9/26/2003 at 11:37:20 PM
I recently picked up a William Jayne (painted on downtube)
road bike with Campy dropouts and parts. I tried to ask the local shop about this brand and the shop was clueless.
Please assist with any information.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   William Jayne road bike? posted by T-mar / Tom on 9/27/2003 at 2:56:30 AM
In the event that there is nobody who is familiar with this marque, I have some suggestions. I think the clue here is the "painted" name. Most manufacturers use decals, as it is much cheaper and provides more consistent results. However there are some exceptions, such as some 1950s & 1960s Legnano bicycles, which used decals in combination with a painted downtube logo.

If there are fuzzy edges to the lettering, it was probably limited production. The builder may not have produced enough frames to justify a production run of decals.

If the edges to the letering are smooth, it was probably handlettered. In this case, it is likely a repaint and the name is probably that of a previous owner. This was a common practice in the 1970s (and earlier?)when repainting a frame. Most frames have other markings on the head and seat tubes. Also, a frame with Camapgnolo dropouts would normally have a tubing decal. The absence of other markings would support the theory of a repaint and the owner's name.

If there are actual decals elsewhere with the William Jayne name, it is a legitmate manufacturer who produced enough frames to justify a run of decals.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   William Jayne road bike? posted by T-mar / Tom on 9/27/2003 at 2:56:33 AM
In the event that there is nobody who is familiar with this marque, I have some suggestions. I think the clue here is the "painted" name. Most manufacturers use decals, as it is much cheaper and provides more consistent results. However there are some exceptions, such as some 1950s & 1960s Legnano bicycles, which used decals in combination with a painted downtube logo.

If there are fuzzy edges to the lettering, it was probably limited production. The builder may not have produced enough frames to justify a production run of decals.

If the edges to the letering are smooth, it was probably handlettered. In this case, it is likely a repaint and the name is probably that of a previous owner. This was a common practice in the 1970s (and earlier?)when repainting a frame. Most frames have other markings on the head and seat tubes. Also, a frame with Camapgnolo dropouts would normally have a tubing decal. The absence of other markings would support the theory of a repaint and the owner's name.

If there are actual decals elsewhere with the William Jayne name, it is a legitmate manufacturer who produced enough frames to justify a run of decals.

AGE / VALUE:   Dawes "realmrider" posted by: JONathan on 9/26/2003 at 9:44:18 PM
Dawes "realmrider" 10 speed bike. Blue paint, cottered Nervar cranks and ring. Simplex black derailer on rear. The one with sheet metal reinforced pantograph. Front has long since been replaced with SunTour alloy.
The shifters are white plastic...they look like they couldn't handle a sneeze. Nice leather Wright "W3N" saddle. GB forged alloy stem and very ornate alloy bars. Steel rim wheels, with QR axles. Not Normandy, I know that much. Vainqueur 999 "610/750" cp's.
The bike has no tube ID. Decals are "Dawes" on downtube; "realmrider" on top-tube and Olympic rings on the seat-tube.
The down-tube has pretty large diameter. I am guessing early '70's. Because the bike is light even with the steel cranks and wheels I wonder if it has Reynolds 531 main tubes. Anybody know what tubing was used in these bikes?
No matter, I snapped it up for $12.50 US. There was a Raleigh mixte with steel cranks and a cool Huret rear derailer. I got the Dawes and I had to get going, but I may go back, tomorrow for the mixte, if you think it is anything unusual.
It's white. Real nice paint job...2030 steel.
I rode the Dawes in the parking lot and it's nice. Half-chrome forks with a tab below the axle that might be for a pannier attachment. Sticks down below the fender eye and is vertical.
What a find! I wasn't even going to stop and here is what happened. That is always the case. I had the truck to get building stuff for my relaxing weekend ahead, so it was pure luck.
Thanks, gents. laters.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes posted by T-Mar / Tom on 9/26/2003 at 10:48:29 PM
JONathan, I have specs on a 1973 Dawes Galaxy. The component mix is very similar to your Realmrider. The specified tubing is Truwell. Knowing the tubing used by competitors in comparable models, I would assume a lightweight carbon steel, probably AISI 1030, seamless, plain gauge.

E-mail me if you want full specs and a picture for comparison.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes posted by JONathan on 9/26/2003 at 11:54:55 PM
Thanks, Tom. It seems like it is heavier than the other Dawes that is waiting for a fix-up. That one is a "Galaxy" and it has the Reynolds 531 tubes (main) which would make the "realmrider" lower eschelon. I guess I could have done worse for $12.50. I wonder if the "bike boom" created a drop in quality as there were factors driving the system; 1) need to speed up production, which has the associated QA problems and 2) shortage of materials (tubing in particular) on demand, I presume there was only so much 531 available and 3) there was pressure to compete which drove prices down with cost made up by lowering the bar, so to speek, on the steel tubing.
Or, maybe they just wanted a piece of the action and realized that a cheaper bike would sell and they would still keep the higher quality lines to keep up their image. I think this "realmrider" would compete head-to-head with the UO-8's and "grand prix"'s, IMHO. The workmanship is superior to my 1972 grand prix...same color even. The grand prix seems lighter...maybe it had 531 mains. There are no surviving stickers for tube type on the seat-tube. The "galaxy: has a classier finish to it, so I think it was a mid-level bike...based on a previous discussion of "level". I like "standard" in place of "low" or "entry" for level. To me, "low" has negative aspect and there are units that are way below "low", so there is no room to expand in that direction.
The convoluted logic of "lower, low" and "lowest, low" is silly, IMHO. Hey, why not compose a standard? We got close last time.
Thanks a lot, cheers, JONathan

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Claude Butler posted by: Titlist on 9/26/2003 at 12:54:57 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=420&item=2193020173 , I decided I would post this in this forum as well.

Maybe some don't know, Claud Butlers are still available, shop in Belfast, http://www.realcycles.com/products.php?mcat=1&brand=4

Rupert Butler authored some books on WW II I have read, claims Irish English heritage.

In the early 80s, I had some way out cousin, went to Europe a lot, think, he brought back a CB once.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Claude Butler posted by David on 9/26/2003 at 2:08:05 PM
Beautiful bike, ain't it? I'll bet the fork is a replacement, though, and probably not 531.

      Claude Butler posted by John E on 9/26/2003 at 6:28:40 PM
Yes, the frame is gorgeous, but why would one use such long cage in a close-ratio, single chainring transmission.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Claude Butler posted by John S on 9/27/2003 at 1:08:35 AM
An uncommon site! My all-time(to-date)lucky find was an old Claud Butler put out as trash!? Nervex lugs, fabulous workmanship, "pencil stays" like the one in ebay. A knowledgable friend thinks late 50's/early 60's.

Components included one-ring Gnutti cottered steel crankset, Universal 61's, Campag steel Gran Sport, weather-wasted Lygie saddle, very unusual bar/stem. Crummy Japanese wheels. Who knows what was original or not...

Was directed to a British club called Veterans Cycle Club. They have "mark experts" who can help with dating, correct restoration, etc. My barrier to joining was requirement to pay in Sterling, which my Post Office wont do.

Of any, it is the one worth professional restoration even though it is not my size.

   RE:   Claude Butler posted by Titlist on 9/27/2003 at 1:24:55 AM
Fixed Gear and Lugs, on this '52 work of art, http://www.bikespecialties.com/vintage/1952claudbutler.html ; somehow, I was reading, maybe the CBs are connected, not sure, to the better known Hutchinson brand and their was a bike, part of the same schemata, a H.R. Grubb, initials, unsure about. I believe, at the same site, Dave or someone left in connection with the Hobbs of Barbican.

John E.'s remark on the long cage, kind of puts me in a quandary, cause I've got a bicycle set up in the same way. Maybe in this area, it makes the bicycle flexible.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Claude Butler posted by Titlist on 9/27/2003 at 1:28:53 AM
Thanks John, for the bits of info, good comments

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Claude Butler posted by Titlist on 9/27/2003 at 1:31:50 AM
by the way, forgive me for placing a second post on this, someone today, put up a CB frame. I've got to think, someone puts something up on Ebay; others track it, "oh, I've got this" and put it up for auction. Obviously, I did a web search on this item, I certainly found CBs, are ridden downunder.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:Claude Butler, Holdsworth, Grubb posted by Titlist on 9/27/2003 at 1:17:08 PM
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British/Holdsworth.htm & http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/

Holdsworth (not Hutchinson), F.H. Grubb and Claud Butler cycles, probably more info than you will ever need ...

   long-cage derailleur posted by John E on 9/28/2003 at 2:28:09 AM
During that era, the pattern was half-step gearing (52-48, 50-47, 49-46, etc.) for sport and huge step (50-36, 48-28, etc.) for touring. The long cage would have permitted the touring cyclist to install a large-drop front chainring pair without replacing the rear derailleur. (In fact, in the old days, according to "The Dancing Chain," not everyone even used a front derailleur. Instead, they simply dismounted, spun the chain onto the large ring for normal riding and the small ring for climbing.)

   RE:long-cage derailleur posted by Dave on 9/29/2003 at 4:52:39 PM
The Hobbs came with a 3-speed cogset Cyclo "ACE" shifting system, with corresponding braze-ons on the frame. It predated the Campy and Simplex deraillers a bit. You had a single jockey wheel about half way between the rear cogs (for tension) and the front chainring and a crude fork mounted on the right chainstay that actually did the shifting. I asked the former owner about it he said it worked very poorly and tended to drop the chain. Judging by the damage to the rear hub flange,(fortunatly not past the point of no return) and chainstay paint chipping this happened more than once. I am putting a 6-speed cogset on it so I have a brand new Huret Svelto rear derailler to replace the Simplex Prestige that was on on it. PS- Claude Butlers were also very top end bikes in their day too.

   RE:RE:long-cage derailleur posted by Titlist on 9/30/2003 at 4:09:22 AM
Interesting Dave, trying to picture this, wonder what year we are speaking about here for the pre-Simplex Prestige Derailleur, cerca '55?

   RE:RE:RE:long-cage derailleur posted by Dave on 9/30/2003 at 2:05:38 PM
No , I meant Simplex Tour de France or Campy Grand Sport. The prior owner changed out the drivetrain 3 times. He put a Cyclo 5 speed bandspring derailler in in the 50's, I'm guessing. The shift lever on the bike is either for that one or the original "Ace". I ordered a Cyclo bandspring derailler from Cycle Art but after seeing how poorly made it was and re-reading the thread here from my original email I returned it for the NOS Huret,esp. since I already ordered a 6-speed freewheel. I think he put the Prestige on it in the early '70's because the rear steel Rigida rim has a '73 datecode on ,(it was probably rebuilt in the 70's). Sorry for the confusion.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Interesting Humber... posted by: Warren on 9/25/2003 at 8:24:48 PM
This one looks cool...


It's got the bifurcated forks, old drom brake and the angles look steep enough to be a real racer. Could be worth something.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Interesting Humber... posted by Warren on 9/25/2003 at 8:27:47 PM
That's drum brake...did I mention the old Simplex gears?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Interesting Humber... posted by Titlist on 9/26/2003 at 1:51:53 AM
I've seen a 3 speed cog set by Simplex on sale on Ebay. You say the simplex shifters, I am looking for them. I am still on the lookout for an original Fr. 3 Speed, sure enough, folder Motobecanes, Gitanes, in fact, both are on Ebay right now. I mean a French heritaged 3 speed. Know the Motobecane, made in Fr. Sturmey Archer hub.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Murray 10-Speed posted by: JA Collins on 9/25/2003 at 8:19:07 PM
Have a chance to pick up a 1 owner mint Murray 10-speed with the original owner's manual. Don't know a model name or number yet. Any ideas of what to watch for? From pictures, it has fenders and was babied. Not sure what the value will be -- looks like a one-piece Ashtabula type crank. Thanks.

   Murray 10-Speed posted by John E on 9/25/2003 at 9:45:47 PM
Sorry, Huffys and Murrays are not my thing. If I wanted a heavy American 10-speed, I would buy a Schwinn.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Murray 10-Speed posted by JA Collins on 9/25/2003 at 11:45:10 PM
Mine either! That is why I asked. I have a mint 72 Schwinn Continental already and Murray was never appealing to me either. Didn't want to find out n 10 years that I was a dolt and should have bought up the old Murray (don't know much of anything about the brand). Thanks.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Murray 10-Speed posted by JONathan on 9/26/2003 at 12:09:59 AM
What is the year? When I think; "pick up", I think of "free". What's one more bike? Since I don't have a Murray in my collection, I would look at it.
Sometimes you just like a bike and that's it. If it was before 1968, that would make it more interesting. I take a look and if I like it, I get it and worry about it later.
What are the components?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Murray 10-Speed posted by Ron on 9/28/2003 at 11:53:29 AM
Since Murrays and Huffys are regarded so low, in ten or twenty years, you may have the only example that escaped the dumpster. Good museums show the inventions that didn't work out, as well as the ones that did.

AGE / VALUE:   Age on Mercier Frame posted by: brent on 9/25/2003 at 7:38:43 PM
Just curious about this frame that I had forgotten all about in my garage. I was wondering when Simplex Juy dropouts were used? They are on a Mercier frame with 120 rear spacing, I don't see any model designation anywhere and I don't remember what parts it had on it. In fact I don't really remember buying it. I guess the bikes are multiplying.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Age on Mercier Frame posted by Titlist_Tommaso on 9/26/2003 at 2:35:02 AM
Sounds Faustian, as in Fausto Coppi, years, I believe he used them on his Bianchi, thinking, late 1940s, on to say 1960. Does it have a Magistroni Crank?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Age on Mercier Frame posted by JONathan on 9/26/2003 at 7:56:18 AM
I got one that is mid 60's has the Simplex derailers, Altenberger brakes and a giant decal of a waving Raymond Poulidor (Sp.) adorning nost of the seat-tube was a basket case when I started, but there is something that I liked about the tired ol beast.
Don't ask why I spent hours nursing it back. Not much of a feather it is. Robust frame (dark green) was brazed up pretty good by the looks of the lug connections. Nothing sloppy about the construction. They made some fine bikes. The model 300, I recall was superb.
The 100 was the first level. Mine is not a racing bike, to be sure. Handles more like a cowpony than a green jumper, if you know horses. All cleaned up and polished, it looks very nice...true vintage fare. I think it is tougher than my UO-8, judging by its construction.
I could put a Centurion fork set on it, but I was able to get the steerer straightened out and the bike looks cool with those wide bladed forks. It took a smack. I bet the rider went over the bars. Nothing else was messed up on the physical part of the frame. No stupid kickstand to smash in the chain-stays, so they are fine.
I dig these tough bikes. They're really built for heavy weather. Then they started in with all the light stuff.
Keep it and ride..or fix it all up and hang it.
Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Age on Mercier Frame posted by Dave on 9/26/2003 at 1:22:28 PM
I have a '72 Model 100 similar to Jonathan's I put white housepaint on it to cover up what was left of the original and the decals are in real bad shape. However , the bike weighs in @22 lbs with a new cotterless crankset and handles rough roads like a dream. If the original Rigida steel rims are on the bike look at that there is a diamond with a date code in it. I saw one with a bent fork with the same decals as mine, so that was how I was able to get the year. Another plus is the forks are English not French thread. Enjoy!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Age on Mercier Frame posted by Titlist on 9/28/2003 at 1:45:40 AM

Are there not French made and British made Mercians? Thanks

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Age on Mercier Frame posted by Dave on 9/29/2003 at 5:28:17 PM
Mercian is British and Mercier is French. The Simplex dropouts are only on Merciers as far as I know.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Age on Mercier Frame posted by Titlist on 9/30/2003 at 4:23:40 AM
You should set up your own website Dave!

Thinking at times, with what one reads here, Tom speaking, Rob, the Johns, Dave, and going over Ken Kifers site, I think, a "tinkering" idea I've thought of, has been a "conglomeration" site, of essay like on Kifers. Needless to say, there are some sites, that are similar to this idea at least, I think, not sure of the exact address, www.bikecommute(r).com and such.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vista posted by: Joe on 9/25/2003 at 9:21:31 AM
I have come across a Vista bike. It is a 10 speed with "roadster" (up-right ) handlebars. It looks to me like it is from the '70-'80's. Does anyone know if this brand was made by Schwinn? the bike has a nice ride and a beautiful finish.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vista posted by Dave on 9/25/2003 at 2:03:16 PM
My very first bicycle after I moved to Chicago in 1980 was a red Vista 5 speed. It was a lower priced Columbia , or so I was told. It did have a nice ride quality the only trouble was the worn out Huret Alvit rear derailler. Some days I had a 3 speed, other ones a 4 speed and if the stars lined up correctly it was a 5 speed. I ended up selling the bike and getting a optic yellow Free Spirit 10 speed, that had a Shimano drivetrain and while somewhat heavier was always a 10 speed and not as much of a struggle in a Chicago headwind. I also found out during this timeframe that bell bottom pants were not good for cycling. They were always getting caught in the chain!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Vista posted by Titlist on 9/26/2003 at 2:39:30 AM
For those who haven't seen Vista, to me, what makes it Schwinn like, is that Vista is on the badge, just like the old Schwinn badges it seems to me. Black Letters, Vertical reading the name, Vista, on an oval name plaque.

FOR SALE:   Stuff For Sale in Phoenix posted by: Art on 9/25/2003 at 5:41:28 AM
I am selling out a large collection of bicycles, frames, and parts in Phoenix. I don't want to ship anything, but would prefer to sell locally. If interested please contact me off list.