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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by: Rob on 9/3/2003 at 5:28:01 PM
How much rough ground can a road bike take? On part of my daily commute I ride across the lawn of a block-wide park...I come down off a hill and hit the lawn going about 50kmh (30mph)...in the winter when the grass is wet and soft, I don't do that...too slippery. When it's dry...no problem. However this has been an extremely dry year in the northwest...virtually no rain since June...the grass is dried out and the ground has become quite hard...I take quite a rattling as I cross. I raise up off the seat...using my knees as shock absorbers, so there's no problem physically, but I'm wondering what it's doing to the bike??? I know in Europe they often race on cobblestone streets, so I guess up to a point the bikes are designed for this rough stuff...

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Dave on 9/3/2003 at 6:10:08 PM
Rob, In the days before Mtn. bikes were available commonly, in the early '80's , I used to ride a Free Spirit Sears road bike through a forest preserve horse path. The best fix is to put 700cm "cyclo-cross" tires on your bike, which are wider than standard road bike tires and would fit old vintage LW's stays/forks better than a new one. They do have 27" x 1 3/8" size available . The wider tires would absorb more bumps better and keep the rims from getting dented,(I've done that alot).

      Rough Ground posted by John E on 9/3/2003 at 6:35:46 PM
You have alot more courage than I do, going offroad @ 50kph!

I can vouch for the 27 x 1-3/8" knobbies, if you can still find them. I inflate them to about 75 PSI on aluminum Rigida rims on my Peugeot UO-8 cyclocross/commuter.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Rob on 9/3/2003 at 6:57:01 PM
On second thought...I guess I should give a "Don't try this at home" warning...I know I'm going pretty fast but I know the route intimately and the slightest hint of dampness(rain or dew or whatever) I slow right down....in fact in the winter I often walk the bike down the first part of the grass...just too wet and it's usually dark as well...don't want anyone to think I'm some kind of a Mad Max...:)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Tom on 9/3/2003 at 8:35:21 PM
Rob, I agree with Dave and John E. regarding the tires. You also want to keep that bike as mechanically fit as possible. Check it for loose fasteners an a regular basis as that type of terrain will vibrate things loose. Pay particular attention to headset, stem, handlebars and front wheel. Anything loose on the front end is a recipe for disaster in that situation.

As for the potential mishap, well I had a similar situation about six or seven years ago in an off-road duathlon. It was at a ski resort and the downhill bike section was steep, long and straight. Well, in those situations, you normally get beaten beaten up pretty bad by the bumps if you go slow. So, I let the bike have it's head, held on and went skimming over the tops of the bumps, until the front wheel caught a rut and sent me over the bars. I landed on my back and slid down the hill. Nothing broke, but my back was pretty raw and bloody. I finished the race and still managed to medal. There were a lot of gasps from the crowd when they saw my back and the local TV crew ensured it made the sports highlight reel. It may have been my 15 seconds of fame, but it wasn't the type I had envisioned!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Jacques on 9/3/2003 at 8:39:10 PM
Speaking of Mountain Bikes, the Fleetstreak finally made its appearance on Ebay, vintage mountain, I don't think, it will have a lot of success at that price, with shipping included, I paid a little over 100 CDN 80 US Dollars. I think, it is a good bike. I have run into some early mountain bikers, they like the older mountain bikes. Told me of somewhere out west, big downhill race, resulting in a big flat wall to meet at the bottom. http://www.offcamber.com/igssc99story.htm the interglactic mission mountain bike event in Colorado, I think, is just some small deal. However, it is one of the references on the web to this bike, it dubs it a clunker, it may be a different year from the picture I see, a blue one. I do like the brakes on the chainstays, for uniqueness, something not often done.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Jacques on 9/3/2003 at 8:41:06 PM
the ebay link, to the auction is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3625230916&category=7297&rd=1 I have seen a woman's bike, very similar to this one, but this one is the same make.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by JONathan on 9/4/2003 at 1:07:34 AM
I picked up a UO-8 that had been brutalized based on the condition. Mongoose pegs on the rear axles indicated it was used for free-styling or hauling a rider. It had 26 " wheels; rear derailer was bent to a perfunctory ornament incapable of shifting. Front derailer was bent sideways. Left front forkend was bent and the fork-tube was abraded by the bearing housing. Rear integral dropout was bent. Front brake was nonfunctional due to bent pivot bolt. Rear brake worked, but it was bent. I know the region where it had originated, and it is MTB country ranchlands. So it was beat. I checked the frame and stays. They were perfect! The reason I got the bike was for the farme and the cotterless chainrings which were hardly worn. I tossed everything except the crank spindle, chainrings, frame and forks. Oh, I found a home for the mongoose pegs, too. I was amazed at the toughness of these older steel frames abd forks.
I mean, it was as if they were trying to destroy the bike. I'd say that my UO-8's can take anything I could dish out and I'm a bit over 200# riding some dirt roads. Going 50Km/hr. I'd be more worried about myself breaking apart. You a brave one, boss.
Cheers, JONathan

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Titlist on 9/4/2003 at 3:49:47 AM
well, I get problems with loose nuts, washers, not working properly, but how about the story here, kind of dwarfs my concerns;

Downhill is where it goes on. I am amazed, on some mountain bike trails, well, two way trails, must be accidents from time to time. Narrow. And my gosh again, I've read about snowmobilers slamming into trees, bad accidents; and I can easily see it happening on a mountain bike. I can certainly relate to that story of going over the bars, though, fingers crossed, that hasn't happened. On a road bike once, and I didn't want to test the brakes much, it was all wet around, rain, cold, I was rolling pretty fast on a paved bike trail, down hill, so I rolled the wheels onto the grass, slowed it down fairly quick. I did that mainly, not concerned about going downhill fast, but rather an intersection where pedestrians, but no cars was ahead, in a park.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Dave on 9/4/2003 at 2:19:55 PM
A friend gave me 2 low end MTB's to build one into for his youngest son. Good thing too, the one is a rusting hulk, only one of the four wheels is useable; the better ones fork has almost no paint left but with a new rear wheel, front shifter and cables,plus headset bearings and bottom bracket lube it can be ridden again. A Chicago built Schwinn would've fare better.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rough Ground posted by Keith on 9/4/2003 at 2:45:43 PM
In my neck of the woods we have rides purposely include paved roads, unpaved roads, and off road. Most folks ride mountain bikes, but a few of us ride cyclocross bikes, which are much more efficient for this type of ride. These rides are a good test of how well your bike is put together. It's tremendous fun.

MISC:   WARNING posted by: Rob on 9/2/2003 at 6:40:00 PM

Someone seems to have hijacked my e-mail address in order to send a virus (W32/Sobig.f@mm). Must be trying to exploit the trust factor...it seems to have started right after my Schwinn Varsity post of last Friday...I only occasionally send e-mails to other posters and never any attachments without asking permission first (viruses and also the possibility of overwhelming some systems)....so if the e-mail doesn't make sense..ignore it, and don't open any attachments. At least some of your systems seem to be filtering out the bogus e-mails...


PS If any of you have other ideas as to what might be going on let me know...the above is my best guess...

   RE:MISC:   WARNING posted by JONathan on 9/2/2003 at 7:04:45 PM
Thanks. I got gooned, too. I ran the "fix" and it came up clean. Definitely don't open the "unknowns".
Mine had a "wicked screen saver" title. Hope they track it down.

   RE:RE:MISC:   WARNING posted by Jacques on 9/2/2003 at 8:14:14 PM
per yahoo warning:

"Welcome, La!
You have 5 unread messages:
Inbox (4), Bulk (1)

Today's tip: VIRUS ALERT - W32.Sobig.F@mm is a mass-mailing, network-aware worm that sends itself to all the email addresses it finds in certain files on your PC. If you receive a message with an attachment with a .pif or .scr extension, we strongly suggest you scan it before downloading. The message may appear to be from someone you know "

   RE:MISC:   WARNING posted by Rob on 9/2/2003 at 8:17:04 PM
For those of you who are concerned here's the latest I found on this virus:

Apparently this virus is into e-mail 'spoofing' so the key, I guess, is not opening any attachments...

   RE:RE:MISC:   WARNING posted by JONathan on 9/2/2003 at 9:28:42 PM
Thanks, Jacques and thanks, Rob for the useful information...and very good advice, too.

   SoBig.F posted by John E on 9/2/2003 at 10:46:07 PM
I have been getting tons of attempted SoBig hits, plus a number of returns, the latter indicating that I am being spoofed. This forum may be the source. If I want to send any of you any attachments, I shall always send you a pure text email first. Please address all email to me through my ieee.org alias, because the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) virus-scrubs everything. Likewise, because this is strictly a forwarding alias, legitimate email will never come from me to you via this address.

   RE:MISC:   WARNING posted by Walter on 9/3/2003 at 12:06:51 AM
One day I must have dumped 2 dozen emails with that virus attached and I've also received warnings that I've sent contaminated mail. This was a huge virus that got into so many mailboxes that it's probably a minority that wasn't affected in some way.

Ditto about attachments.

   RE:MISC:   WARNING posted by Rob on 9/3/2003 at 5:26:40 PM
I ran the Symantec fix for the sobig.f virus...my system was clean...there's not much a person can do about the spoofing...I had to delete another half dozen returns this AM. This virus, among other things picks the email addresses out of htm and html files, so I guess if you've ever indicated your email address that's it...I suppose the way to go is periodic address changes, then the junk goes off into the ether...Good news...sobig.f, which is not a particularly robust virus, shuts itself down on 10 Sept...but it will likely leave the door open for sobig.g

Moral...don't be cheap about getting anti-virus and firewall software...it's relatively cheap and the seem to have pretty good rebates at the moment...they seem to work quite well...

AGE / VALUE:   Old British LW's posted by: Dave on 9/2/2003 at 3:01:24 PM
Seem to be a theme here. Last night I obtained a "Blue Riband" ,(Blue Ribbon?) bike. It was owned by a friend in my Bike Club whom originally bought it 2nd hand from a British guy in 1949. It has curly silver lugs, Chater Lea cottered single crank,Brooks Swallow saddle,(w/Proofide on it),27" Wheels, Reynolds alloy stem, leather circular covers on the brake levers. The bike was stored in his attic for 35/40 years,(he rides a recumbent now), and is in remarkably good condition. The bike was originally fitted w/a 3 speed osgear but he retrofitted the rear w/a 5/speed cluster and a Simplex Prestige. I plan to rebuild the rear wheel,(w/wingnuts) with a alloy 27" rim, the original steel one had a dent . The bike has a threading in the right fork for a headlamp and little loops on the stays for removable Blumels fenders, one would ride to the start of the race and remove fenders/light then re-attach when finished. Should be fun.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Old British LW's posted by Warren on 9/2/2003 at 3:24:59 PM

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by: Brian L. on 9/1/2003 at 7:23:48 PM
Please help me identify this: Serial #D757 stamped in DO. BB stamped in very small block letters "Brit. Pat 634021, ?? at Pend". BB marked "4" on each chainstay socket. Hand cut lugs. At first I thought that it might be bi-laminated construction because tubes are not open to each other @ miters, but stripping the paint reveals solid lugs. There is an oiler brazed on to BB, but it's fake as it does not have an open port to BB. Perhaps most interesting feature is hand-cut "CARLTON" in slightly nouveau script brazed in place of head badge. Original paint long gone, but was originally 1/2-chrome fork and stays. Drop-outs are plate brazed into bullet caps. All brass brazing. Original 4-speed Sturmey hub marked "STURMEY ARCHER ENGLAND FW FOUR-SPEED ALLOY 53 11"

Is the date 53? Any thoughts as to model? Definitely racing geometry if it dates from the 50's.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by David on 9/2/2003 at 12:04:08 AM
The desirable hub was made in Nov 1953. The frame probably about the same time, probably a "club" model for hotshot recreational riders. It's probably 531; is it quite light? The fake oiler seems very bizarre! I think you have quite a find there.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by Tom on 9/2/2003 at 1:58:52 AM
This sounds like the 1948 Carlton International I stumbled across a while back. The bike is S-A equipped, has hand cut lugs, a BB oiler and the brazed-on head tube logo. The sample I saw had no chrome and the pictures didn't clearly show the dropout and attachment. But, check it out for your self...

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by Mike on 9/2/2003 at 2:31:36 PM
As a modern Carlton owner (mid 70's anyway) your bike sounds wonderful. I agree that an oiler port with nowhere for the oil to go is strange - are you sure that it is not just blocked with hardened oil, grease and dirt. The stuff can get very hard! Hope you can post pics somewhere so we can all take a look.


   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by Brian L. on 9/2/2003 at 6:17:51 PM
The oiler is indeed fake, I am quite certain. The fact that the BB lug isn't open to the sockets made me think that it was bi-laminated construction at first, but I am quite certain that is not the case. The Carlton letters match the "Path" model, but the lugs are cruder and the carving is noticably asymettrical when viewed straight on. The fork crown is twin plate or carved to appear twin-plate. I will try and get photos posted.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by Rob on 9/3/2003 at 1:35:02 AM
I just took a look at the Carlton pics at the site mentioned by Tom...WOW, that's a pretty luscious looking bike!!!!...I'm intrigued as to the issue with the oiler...what could be going on there??? Workmanship??...I hope not!!! I have an old, mid-70's Super Course with one strangely cut fender stay eyelet, in the front drop out...more a slit than a round hole, not a big deal, but interesting nonetheless..can only be workmanship...

Let us know if you figure out what's going on with the oiler...

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by gary m on 9/3/2003 at 1:54:09 AM
i can just about gaurantee that the darn thing got brazed shut while being installed an nobody cared. i still dont. use quality grease and forget oil.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by JONathan on 9/3/2003 at 5:06:27 AM
If the oiler issue is anything like stamps or coins...maybe it has greater value because it was a defect....even rarer find! I would leave it be. Just my 2....JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Carlton - hand cug lugs posted by Rory W on 9/4/2003 at 3:16:53 AM
I have recently been working on an old raleigh frame which also has a oiler port in the bottom bracket. In this bike it seems to be sealed with a rubber plug. The bracket takes a standard thread cup but looks as though it has been sleeved in some way. it has a braze-on for the cable for a rear derallier. The head badge is atypical as it is aluminium, roughly oval, with a rudimentary herrons head facing left and 'Raleigh' in raised script. Other features suchs as the serial number stem and handlebars point to the early 60's. There is a raleigh decal on the up tube but the remains of a decal of a cycling figure - reminicent of a Carlton logo I have seen on the Raleigh website on the seat tube. I suspect it may be a frame from a transitional' period soon after the takeover of Carlton by Raleigh. Any thoughts?

MISC:   Schwinn tandem gearing posted by: David on 9/1/2003 at 4:52:47 PM
This isn't quite the right forum, but its readers are knowledgeable...

I have a one-speed Schwinn Town & Country tandem. It's equipped with the original German Union drum brake hubs. I'd like to install a multiple-ratio gear setup.

There was a 10-speed converted T&C on ebay, but it didn't sell and the seller seems to have evaporated so I can't ask a Q. Perhaps someone can save me the trouble of disassembling things just to check dimensions.

Does the Union hub have sufficient room for a five-speed cluster instead of the one-speed freewheel? If not, are three or four speed freewheels correspondingly smaller than a five?

Is a Sturmey Archer AB hub (steel or aluminum "elite" model) strong enough for tandem use?

      Schwinn tandem gearing posted by John E on 9/1/2003 at 7:02:48 PM
First, remove the rear wheel and measure the distance between the dropouts. If it is 120mm, you can drop in a 5-speed or "ultra" 6-speed freewheel and hub. You can also easily spread it to 126mm for a 7-speed. If the width is 115mm, you should be able to spread it to 120mm without difficulty.

An epicyclic internally-geared hub, such as Nexus or Sturmey-Archer, would provide the simplest conversion, but I would be somewhat concerned about mechanical stress on it, as these are really designed for single-rider bikes. However, if both riders are small or medium and they avoid tough hills and fast acceleration, an internal hub transmission should be up to the task.

   RE:MISC:   Schwinn tandem gearing posted by Tom on 9/2/2003 at 1:40:56 AM
The main problem with using an internally geared hub would be to find one with sufficent spoke holes. Tandem wheels have to carry almost twice the load of a normal wheel and therefore use rear wheels with extra spokes to prevent spoke fatigue.

Sturmey-Archer always stated that their hubs should not be used with cogs that are larger than 22T. Presumably the hubs would self-destruct. This would make them unsuitable for most tandem use. They did make a dedicated tandem hub, though only during the period 1934-1941.

   Sturmey-Archer posted by John E on 9/2/2003 at 3:19:42 AM
"[S-A] did make a dedicated tandem hub, though only during the period 1934-1941."

Thanks for the data, Tom; I did not know that. An S-A tandem hub may be even rarer than an ACS, which was made for a similar span of years right after WWII.

AGE / VALUE:   Dunelt 10-Speed posted by: DanB on 9/1/2003 at 3:15:33 PM
I have an old Dunelt 10-Speed that my dad bought at a police auction in the late 60's. A decal on the front post claims it is a lightweight. There is a serial number stamped on the frame by the rear wheel that is 10839BT. The rear gear cluster is smaller than most. It is a tough old bike that stands up to many of todays mountain bikes and road bikes. Any information about age and value is appreciated.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dunelt 10-Speed posted by Tom on 9/1/2003 at 5:13:02 PM
I can't tell you much beyond the fact that it is an English make. Given this and period you bought it, there is a good probability that the crank is a Williams. Their logo looks somethings like a bishop's mitre or a cross with a arch at the top. Their will be four letters inscribed at the junctions of the cross. The lower two lwtters are the date code and can be decrypted using the info on the Classics Rendezvous site. http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British/Williams_nmbrs.htm

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dunelt 10-Speed posted by Titlist on 9/1/2003 at 10:11:42 PM
I've seen a white women's 3 speed, Dunelt, 1963, the reason I mention this (and that year date was on the Sturmey Archer Hub) ; is it had the light weight sticker on it as well.

Now, I feel, like I am going out on a limb, just touching base, does the head badge, have a ram on it? Or was it an industrial or town scene? That may have been the weight stickers illustration.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dunelt 10-Speed posted by DanB on 9/2/2003 at 3:03:33 AM
The logo on the head has something that looks lika a bear on the top. The logo looks like a shield or something of the sort with a couple of rings around it. At the bottom of the logo it says "Birmingham 40". The bike was well used when I got it in the late 60's.
The crank says "BRAMPTON" on the left crank and the right crank has some sort of logo stamped into it. But it is partially worn away, so I can't tell what it is supposed to be.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dunelt 10-Speed posted by Titlist on 9/2/2003 at 3:44:42 AM
Look, A Dunelt Headbadge, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2189437598&category=420

I ask your indulgence, you know, the English Roadster discussion group, Dunelt is a natural.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dunelt 10-Speed posted by DanB on 9/2/2003 at 5:10:01 AM
This is basicly the same headbadge, except mine has some red and light blue colors and at the bottom where this one says "England" mine says

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   10-speeds posted by: mark on 9/1/2003 at 1:00:42 PM
is there an insurance company in the united states that insures 10-speed bicycles? if there is what is the name of the companies? thank you mark!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   10-speeds posted by David on 9/1/2003 at 6:34:32 PM
What kind of insurance do you want? I doubt you will find anyone willing to insure against accidental damage to a bike, but against theft and liability you're usually covered by homeowner's insurance or a similar policy. For a low deductible, though, you will have to pay a substantial amount.

     10-speeds posted by John E on 9/1/2003 at 7:07:13 PM
CAUTION: Do not claim any small or moderate losses on your homeowner's insurance; this could get you blacklisted by the insurance industry, rendering your home uninsurable or at least very expensive to insure. Sign up for the largest deductible you can afford (or the largest that is offered), and save your insurance for a major disaster only.

If you are worried about medical insurance while cycling, your regular health insurance will cover it, and if a motorist strikes you and is at fault, his/her automobolie liability insurance policy should cover you.

MISC:   ROLLS Italain Bike... posted by: Fred A on 9/1/2003 at 10:55:00 AM
A few years back at a garage sale, I purchased a 10 speed bike with the name "ROLLS" on it. Blue and white paint job with all original decals, it had a 63cm frame which is my size. The frame, it turns out, is all chrome beneath the paint and the bike says made in Italy. Components are a mixture (Balilla, Huret, Simplex, etc.) and the only eyesore is that a large area of paint was removed on the seat tube beneath the seat to reval the chrome. Fork tips showed chrome as did the rear stays, so I guess someone got curious. Bike feels relatively light and I'm sure was built during the bike boom of the 70's. Wheels are QR with alloy rims. Cottered crank. Alloy drop handlebars. I heard that this bike was the "lower" of two models made.
Anyone know who the maker was? Or where I could find info?


   RE:MISC:   ROLLS Italain Bike... posted by Fred A on 9/1/2003 at 11:09:32 AM
TYPO: I meant "Italian", but my typing leaves a lot to be desired!!

   RE:MISC: ROLLS Italain Bike... posted by Warren on 9/1/2003 at 1:16:30 PM
I can't help you with the Rolls but your bike is very typical of many frames out of Italy in this time frame. The paint over full chrome, cottered steel cranks, entry level components appeared on a great many lesser known marques. I've got two out them in my basement just like yours.

I tried a Google search in Italian but I didn't see anything specific. Lots of San Marco Rolls saddles...

   RE:MISC:   ROLLS Italain Bike... posted by Titlist on 9/1/2003 at 1:36:17 PM
One reference, I find to Rolls bikes, is on the back of my Glenn's Complete Bicycle Manual, 1973, it lists a number of companies, from A to Z the book will help you with, Rolls is on that list of bike makers. Then, too, it could be the name of the model. You didn't list enough information, but sounds like the brand name.

   RE:RE:MISC:   ROLLS Italain Bike... posted by Fred A on 9/1/2003 at 2:12:44 PM

NO Simplex...my goof! (Got it mixed up with my Mercier.)

Head tube decal reads ROLLS-EUROCICIO ITALY

Derailleurs & down tube shifters are HURET

Brakes (centerpull) & brake levers are BALILLA

QR Levers are GNUTTI

Neck is ttt

Large white ROLLS decal on down tube

Hope this all helps, guys! And thanks!!

MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by: Tom on 9/1/2003 at 12:31:41 AM
Here's a hypothetical question regarding restoration. Let's say that a manufacturer builds several different models using the same frame as a starting point. The only difference between the models is component mix, colour and decals. This is a common practice in the industry.

Now, let's say that we have the lower model bicycle, but have all the correct components to recreate the the higher end model. Is it ethical to paint the frame and decal it as the higher end model?

Furthermore, if at some point down the road, we decide to sell the bike, how much information needs to be disclosed to the potential buyer? Nothing? The repaint? Everything?

And no, I'm not thinking of doing this, I just want to generate a little discussion.

   RE:MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by Titlist on 9/1/2003 at 4:04:20 AM
Versed a bit in the legal system,

I think, it is rather clear, that one can not really make a misrepresentation and one may quibble as to whether this is, but I think, one is obliged to call a rose a rose.

I think, if one sold a bike, one would be obliged to tell the customer, the facts Tom states, they all use the same frame, but here and there, we do have upgrades. That now, Bike X is as good as Bike Y.

Close to Truth in Advertising, Contract law as well. I contracted to receive A product.

   RE:MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by JONathan on 9/1/2003 at 4:08:18 AM
My analysis, assumes a purest's approach. The original "off-the-line" bike needs to honored as the original model, no matter what is done to it. For example; if it was a "Suburban", it wouldn't be historically correct (ethical?) to decal it as a "Continental" or, if the hollow forks were replaced with forged steel forks, to label it as a "Varsity" is wrong, IMHO. I know this is an extreme example of what you are putting forth, yet it is a clear cut example of why it is a practice that is questionable from the "ethics" standpoint, and a bit deceptive if this information is not disclosed, in my humble opinion.
A serial number wouldn't match the production model, either; which is a misrepresentation, in my humble opinion. Aside from these issues, the the "restorer" isn't the "maker", so it would be kind of gross to do it, to my way of thinking. Just a couple of cents worth....JONathan
It is not quite as interesting as "If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it, does it make a sound"? George Berkeley, credit.

   RE:MISC: A Question of Ethics posted by Warren on 9/1/2003 at 4:09:41 AM
A reoccurring theme in the world of art. I think it boils down to one issue. If you disclose the information or pedigree, it is a valid reproduction. If you keep quiet, it's a fake...and unethical.

I believe the US framemaker Brian Bayliss has made a perfect copy of a Masi Special...in his size (he's somewhat short and needs custom frames). Of course everyone knows about it and thinks it's cool. That bike could get thousands on ebay if it were original....of course that's no advantage to him. It cost him thousands to build in labour, materials and expertise. And his repro was no inferior bicycle. Some may argue that it is superior.

   RE:MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by Ron on 9/1/2003 at 9:29:09 AM
In the area of old cars, this practice in well known, and universally hated. A person will take an old Mustang and remove the standard engine and replace it with one from a high perfomance Cobra, then add the "correct" badges and try to sell it as a Cobra. This is why you see the phrase "numbers match" in car ads. The VIN# is like a DNA code for cars that tells what the original engine, etc. was. If you know what you are getting, no problem. But if you are paying top dollar to get something special, then it better be what the seller says it is.

      A Question of Ethics posted by John E on 9/1/2003 at 7:12:32 PM
To me, the critical issue is disclosure. Unfortunately, if you sell the bike and then your buyer later resells it, how does one enforce full disclosure in that second transaction?

Another issue, of course, is that even a professional reproduction paint/decal job cannot match the value inherent in the original.

   RE:   A Question of Ethics posted by Titlist on 9/1/2003 at 10:16:25 PM
How pertinent this is, I was reading a post this morning, dated 2001, someone altered a Diamondback to look like a Bianchi and was selling it on Ebay, but the writer hear pointed out, that the Ebayer, was upfront in stating this was not an original Bianchi. Odd. Do you remember that?

   RE:MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by Tom on 9/2/2003 at 12:58:37 AM
OK, the concensus seems to be for full disclosure and that the bike cannot be sold as "original".

Now, how far does one take this concept? Almost every bike has had new tubes or tires placed on them, and probably cables, pads and chains. Can these bicycles be considered original, even if the replacement parts are OEM items? The logic of the posted arguments would say no!

Yes, I realize this is veering slightly off the original course (but don't most of these posts) and that I'm playing the devil's advocate, but I'd really value your opinions.

   RE:RE:MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by JONathan on 9/2/2003 at 1:46:38 AM
Tom, I am not convinced that there is any "logic"..at least that is consistent with the greater workings of the Universe. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc....it is duck? Maybe.
I think the critical issue is the provenance of a bike. That single feature really determines the exact origin. Who made it? Who owned it? How rare is it? All these factors determine "value", in my experience with things old and wonderful.
At least the original example was not a reproduction, which is of less value, since it wasn't even built at the same time, by the original maker. Yuck. A verifiable provenance has got to carry more weight than a pieced-up restoration, not matter how much "better" it may be, IMHO.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by Dave on 9/2/2003 at 3:56:16 PM
Does this mean my $38 Ebay Varsity that I just put a Dura Ace rear derailler on is a pieced-up restoration? Just curious.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   A Question of Ethics posted by Stacey on 9/2/2003 at 4:18:05 PM
Tom ' I think you summed up an answer to your own question with just one word... "ORIGINAL". Something can only be original as long as it retains all the components it left the factory with. To replace any serviceable item invalidates a claim of originality. If the replaced parts are that of OEM/OEM equivalent type, then ethics dictate the item is 'restored using OEM parts'.

In the imortal words of Douglas Adams - "42!"

MISC:   DUH- RAILERS!! (Replacement) posted by: Titlist on 8/31/2003 at 1:07:39 AM
It's the holiday weekend, but let me give you some background, my Derailluer on my Raleigh Super Tourer, went out last year, it was a Simplex Red Label Long Cage Prestige, common kind, did me reasonably well. Since, I was not real familiar with different derailleurs, I had a modern Sora by Shimano, there current lowest offering. I used that, fairly well, for about 6 months. It did, what I think someone else, aptly described somewhere, ate a tread, not hurting any cogs, thank goodness. Now, with the speech about derailleurs lately, inventory and such, I am looking to install a derailleur in it's place. My gand prix has a red label derailleur, I am not going to remove that, nor the AR Suntour derailleur from my Raleigh USA Marathon.

Hate to gab, esteemed readers, out of my inventory, I am looking for an apt replacement, (remember, the photo on this webpage, http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1976/pages/08-76-super-tourer.html is basically the bike I am working with).

Well, I was a novice, last Thanksgiving time, when I put on a Sora, cause I knew it would be maybe easier, for what I had, but now, I am bolder; my selections below, but only a small number seem very good:

1.) Shimano Eagle
2.) Shimano Eagle II (how about this, think, I kept this, form a Hawthorne's lady's bike, I used, and did like).
3.) Suntour U
4.) Suntour GT (think I have heard this is a good derailleur)
5.) Shimano Skylark
6.) DNP GX (got this off of a Lotus, seemed a real good shifting derailleur)
7.) Suntour Seven (I have tentatively already tried this one, off of a Kabuki Bridgestone, that was being left for pick up, in very tattered condition, the drawback here, is well, I will use 6 Rear Cogs, at the max, original bike Maillard uses only 5, a fine specimen on its own, sometimes, I don't use it for normal riding around).

At the Bicycle Coop, I was able to get 3 derailleurs from the disposal pile;

8.) Shimano 7 Speed, has a small black jockey/pulley wheel and a big red one, reads megarange as well, on one part

9.) Suntour V-GT Luxe

10.) Simplex Silver Label Prestige, Short Cage

   DUH- RAILERS!! (Replacement) posted by John E on 8/31/2003 at 1:35:36 AM
The SunTour V was one of the best-shifting derailleurs of the early 1970s, and its long-caged variant, the V-GT, still ranks as one of the best wide-ranged derailleurs ever made. When my friend's daughter broke her nearly-new Shimano earlier this year, I gave him the original V-GT from my 1971 Nishiki Semi-Pro. It cleaned up beautifully and worked perfectly with her 7-speed indexed shifter and cogset. Her brother did complain that it was "old," but I told my friend to describe it as a "classic," which it is in my book.

   RE:DUH- RAILERS!! (Replacement) posted by Titlist on 8/31/2003 at 1:45:25 AM
Thanks, forgot to say thanks to all in advance, inadvertently, this got posted below, apologies. I could also, think, of shopping somewhere for something nicer as well but I would rather it be vintage.

   RE:MISC:   DUH- RAILERS!! (Replacement) posted by Jimbo Jones on 8/31/2003 at 5:10:44 AM
I agree with the V-gt. I put one on my Grand Sports. The one I have has a chrome cage on and looks the proper vintage .The top bolt threads in perfectly where the simplex derailer was though I have heard that the threads might be different.

Also Raleigh used the V-Gt in later years only they say raleigh on them.

   RE:RE:MISC:   DUH- RAILERS!! (Replacement) posted by Titlist on 9/1/2003 at 9:20:29 PM
THanks, chrome, sure it is, and the Glenn's book, again, covers this derailleur, I've been working on it. btw, I think, personally, that DNP is one of the best in the group I gave, DNP, a bit less known, but another Far East Brand.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   DUH- RAILERS!! (Replacement) posted by Dave on 9/2/2003 at 4:01:27 PM
I retrofitted my '72 Raleigh Gran Prix w/the Raleigh labled Suntour VX front & rear deraillers and the bike shifts much better than before.FYI

AGE / VALUE:   Nishiki/Ross posted by: john on 8/31/2003 at 12:29:10 AM
Somebody just gave me a Nishiki Custom Sport(Shimano 600 Shifters/chrome fork). Rotted tires and chain "double wrapped" around the freewheel, but 15 minutes of effort and I pedaled it out of the driveway for a quick trip around the block..not a bad ride...think I'll get out the wax and bearing grease and keep it for a while. Anybody know where the Custom Sport stood in the Nishiki lineup? I'm assuming it's an entry level, but it really isn't a bad ride. Gift number 2 from the same guy is a Ross Adventurer. Made in Taiwan and a little on the heavy side, but it isn't a piece of junk either. Quick release wheels and all the components of a higher priced bike, just not quite as good quality(For instance, Tracer crankset). I thought Ross just made 3 speeds, balloon tires,Sting Ray knockoffs, and one piece crank 10 speeds???

   Nishiki & Ross posted by John E on 8/31/2003 at 1:26:11 AM
The custom sport, introduced ca. 1970, was Nishiki's bottom-of-the-line 10-speed. The original lineup was simply the Custom Sport at $90 and the Semi-Pro at $150; the intermediate Olympic and Kokusai/International came in 1972.

Ross even briefly made a few high-end road bikes, as well as the usual low-end junk with which most of us associate the marque. My younger son rides an aluminum-framed Ross Rock Machine MT1600, a 12-year-old $20 yard sale treasure which I turned into a decent enough bike by significantly upgrading the cranks and wheels.

   RE:Nishiki & Ross posted by Titlist on 8/31/2003 at 1:42:34 AM
THanks, for got to say thanks for anyone who helps, cause, maybe a few of these are okay, but I got to think, most of what I have are dogs. I could even contemplate shopping for something a little nicer, at the co-op, store, or online.

   RE:Nishiki & Ross posted by Titlist on 8/31/2003 at 2:05:09 AM
I've seen some of their 10 speeds in this mode as well, a darkish color, some people from Pennsylvania take some pride, in the bikes made in their state. A lot to know about this brand, maybe to be found in the archives, etc. instead of just broadbrushing the company. I think, Ross' are still sold today, though maybe not made in the Keystone State.

   RE:RE:Nishiki & Ross posted by Titlist on 8/31/2003 at 2:28:50 AM
Some Ebay items, nice look, Europa, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3623765519&category=42312

Ross Race Team Trials Bike, don't kow if this is the PA. Ross. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3623885961&category=22677

Ross Centaur Roadie, 12 spd, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3623476583&category=7298

and another Centaur, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3624168136&category=7298

3 STingray types of bikes, more there

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   70's Schwinn Collegiate - Brakes posted by: Stefani on 8/30/2003 at 4:58:20 PM
Hi, this is a great site. Not sure if I'm in the right area, but I have a question about adjusting the brakes on my Schwinn Collegiate. I just got this bike at a garage sale and it is in great condition. The only problem is the back brake is super stiff and the front brake mechanism has a lot of movement to it...so at times I need to nudge it with my hand to keep it from dragging against the rim. I know very little about bike mechanics but would like to learn. Is there a simple solution to adjusting them or am I better off taking it into a shop (which I'd like to avoid doing). Thanks for your help!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   70's Schwinn Collegiate - Brakes posted by JONathan on 8/30/2003 at 11:06:32 PM
The "Collegiates" I believe had Weinmann (Schwinn Approved?) side-pull caliper brakes...which are really not very good stoppers compared to various upgrades you can make. If the terms seem strange, you can check out "Glenn's Complete Bicycle Manual" which in earlier editions, has a great section on side-pull brakes used on Schwinn lightweights.
There is a fairly complete description on how to rebuild the units. You will see that it isn't trivial and the importance of doing things right the first time on brakes is a safety concern. If the brake cable slips out of the anchor bolt...that's disaster. There are lots of ways to mess up the brakes. I would first look at the calipers and cables and guides for problems. Are the caliper(s) bent out of the correct plane relative to the pivot bolt? Is the cable sticking inside the housing. For a bike that long in years, I'd think the cables and housing needs replacing. You need new brake pads anyway, I'd guess, which means a trip to the LBS. That purchase could serve as a good opportunity to get a little free advice from the mechanic, if he/she isn't too busy. If the brakes are sticking, there is a source of friction or failure of the caliper spring, grinding of cable inside the housing, corrosion between the calipers or any combination. Truth is to me that stuff that sits for decades isn't gonna work right the first time it's tried out. I find brakes to be tricky little beasties to work on. Good luck...JONathan

      70's Schwinn Collegiate - Brakes posted by John E on 8/31/2003 at 1:39:11 AM
Be sure to lubricate the contact points between the springs and caliper arms, as well as the central pivot. KoolStop pads will help immensely, as will new cables and housings. Unfortunately, your braking performance will remain somewhat limited by the long reach of the brakes. One expensive solution is to hang the caliper pivots from drop bolts, to shorten the brake reach, thereby increasing your leverage somewhat. Your steel rims also greatly hinder your braking system's effectiveness, because the friction coefficient of rubber on steel is lower than that of rubber on aluminum.

   RE:   70's Schwinn Collegiate - Brakes posted by Ken on 9/2/2003 at 6:17:07 PM
The back brake on women's frames is traditionally lousy, but as John states, new cable&housing will take care of it. No modifications or upgrades needed. The front one is a minor adjustment requiring a 10mm box (or is it 9?) and a 14 mm cone wrench. Do it yourself, or find a friend.

AGE / VALUE:   ever heard of a bike made by Pugeut? posted by: seon-bin on 8/30/2003 at 12:50:50 AM
I bought this bike at a garage sale, and it is at least 25 years old according to the original owner, and it has the Pugeut-the automaker logo on it. The colour is orange and it is one of those racing bikes with a loop handle(what do you call it?) and I took it to a shop to change the dried up tires and for bit of tuning. Ever heard of a bicycle series from Pugeut?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ever heard of a bike made by Pugeut? posted by andym on 8/30/2003 at 3:36:44 AM
Its spelled Peugeot.I don't mean to sound like a jerk,but you're kidding...right?
Peugeot was and maybe still is one of the most popular bicycle brands that there has ever been,especially during the seventies,along with Schwinn and Raleigh.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   ever heard of a bike made by Pugeut? posted by andym on 8/30/2003 at 3:56:36 AM
Well,here in the states,anyway.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   ever heard of a bike made by Pugeut? posted by JONathan on 8/30/2003 at 5:33:32 AM
You have yourself a real good ride. It is "PEUGEOT", if you look closely at the decal name.
Does it have a sticker that has "Reynolds 531" on it? Does it have a sticker with; "Carbolite 103" or "Tube Special Allege" on it?
Does it have cranks with cotter pins or is it cotterless?
Try "Sheldon Brown's web site" for all the information about "P-E-U-G-E-O-T" that you could ever want...or need. Tell us more about the bike.
Cheers, JONathan

    Pugeut posted by John E on 8/31/2003 at 1:31:43 AM
Your Peugeot is probably a U-08, which was the most popular model in the U.S. It has Nervar or Stronglight cottered steel cranks, quick-release Normandy hubs with knurled Rigida steel rims, and a Simplex Prestige rear derailleur hung from a bolt-on claw adaptor. I believe the best Peugeots, the Reynolds-tubed PR-10/PKN-10 and PX-10, never came in orange, at least through the mid-1970s.

   RE: Pugeut posted by Dave on 9/2/2003 at 5:37:42 PM
I probably paid too much @$175 for my Orange '73 Peugeot but it came w/Maxy cotterless cranks. I'm going to try to find the UV protection for the Simplex plastic drivetrain parts per Jonathan's tread last week. The orange color is standard and easy to touch up too.

AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by: John S on 8/30/2003 at 12:21:23 AM
Been hunting here in the East Bay of the San Francisco Bay Area and picked up an ItalVega today, fun fun fun! A nice lady rode this baby in Alaska in the 70's.

Lovely chrome, fork crown, head lugs and fork/stay ends. I think I've had a frame like this before, stamped droupouts but with Columbus "Tre-Tubi", think this one is the same. Interesting parts mix, Universal 61's, TA 3-arm cranks, old Campy front derailleur with a replacement SunTour V-GT rear. Gnutti QR's.

So maybe some of these bikes were custom-parted upon sale? Popular in the early 70's?

Anyway, I'd like to single speed this frame as there are no braze-ons and no derailleur hanger, makes for such a clean look...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by Tom on 8/30/2003 at 2:12:25 AM
Custom parting a 70's bike with stamped dropouts would be rare. A shop might replace a part or two at the customer's request, but that would be about it. Sounds like the cranks are a upgrade, in addition to the rear derailleur. I recall this marque starting to make an impact in the late 70's, though your sample could be earlier.

Regarding, Tre-Tubi frames, they didn't start appearing until the late 80's. I doubt anyone would have built one with stamped dropouts, though stranger things have happened.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by John S on 8/30/2003 at 3:34:25 AM
Thanks Tom. ItalVega's were pretty common in my area in the 70's, and the Tre-Tubi one I had was 1972 with stamped drops - otherwise top-quality lugs and material, though not super fine construction or finishing quality. These were a lesser-expensive alternative to top marks of the day.

Your thought that there were probably some upgrades makes a lot of sense, as there are alloy upright bars with a nice TTT Record stem which I doubt would be original.

John S

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by Tom on 8/30/2003 at 11:50:07 AM
John S., I'm extremely curious about the 1972 Tre Tubi. Do you have any pictures of the bike, especially the tubing decal? In lieu of pictures, can you descibe it?

Regarding the current bike, the TTT record is a very nice stem. Probably an upgrade, as you suspect. You may have a city bike with upgrades, or a racer with new bars (and saddle?). Regardless, I suspect these upgrades done over a long period of time, as the original owner(s) began to appreciate the advantages of better components. If all these changes had been done when purchased new, it probably would have been cheaper to purchase a higher end model with the desired conponents, than to pay the pay the for the new components and the labour to change them over.

    ItalVega... posted by John E on 8/31/2003 at 1:47:43 AM
The original crankset was probably cottered steel.

The original rear derailleur was probably a low-end wide-range Campag. unit derived from the Valentino; you are probably better off with the Shimano.

For those unfamiliar with the term, a TreTubi Renforzati frame, which was also used on next-to-top Bianchis (with Campag. dropouts!), comprises a double-butted (Renforzati) Columbus main triangle (Tre=3) with some lesser material (rolled carbon steel or, in the case of Bianchi, seamed CrMo) stays and forks. When I looked at them in 1971, ItalVega offered a flashy-looking Italian bike with Campag. gears (such as they were) at the price of a Raleigh Super Course ($125). I chose the American Eagle/Nishiki Semi-Pro/Competition instead for the Sugino cotterless crankset and SunTour gears; unfortunately, the frame, though double-butted Ishiwata CrMo, was nowhere near as good as the European competition.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by Tom on 8/31/2003 at 5:30:48 PM
John E., this is a revelation to me. I was not aware of Tre Tubi tube sets prior to the late eighties. Of course, maybe that is the issue? Maybe the 70's frames were custom tube mixes by the manufacturers and Columbus did not market their own Tre Tubi set until the 80's? I would assume that Columbus' set was a reaction to what the framebuilders were doing. They would not have wanted their reputation sullied by some framebuilder using low grade, seamed stays and were obligated to market a tubeset with good, though not top end stays and blades.

I recall similar frames during the 70's with Reynolds 531 DB main tubes and lesser stays and blades. The labels referred to "531 butted frame tubes", but did not mention stays or blades. Perhaps the Italian manufacturers and subsequently Columbus, were reacting to this? It would have given Reynolds builders a definite cost edge, as most buyers would not have been sufficiently educated to appreciate the frames were not full 531.

I would appreciate it if you could straighten me out on this issue. Thxs.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by JONathan on 8/31/2003 at 7:44:31 PM
Tom, I have one piece of information about the Reynolds "labels". Thsource is from Sloane's "All New Complete Book of Bicycling"; 1980, p. 19.
There is a graphic display of 4 labels.
starting with the lower end;
1) 531 across the middle with "Reynolds" above and "frame tubes" below it.
2)531 across the middle with "Reynolds" superimposedover it; above is "Guaranteed built with"; below is "Plain gauge tubes"; below it; "forks and stays".
3) 531 with "butted" superimposed; above is; "Guaranteed built with"; below it is; "Reynolds" and across the bottom is; "Frame tubes".
4) 531 diagonally positioned across the label with "Reynolds" superimposed; above to left is; "Guaranteed built with" (stacked) and below to right is; "butted tubes/forks & stays".

I presume that the frame builder would necessarily place the correct designation sticker on the bike frame.
Cheers, JONathan

   Columbus TreTubi posted by John E on 8/31/2003 at 8:05:22 PM
Tom -- My Bianchi is definitely a 1981 +/- 1 year and it is definitely a Columbus TreTubi frame. However, I do not know how far back into the 1970s the Columbus TreTubi designation goes or whether other manufacturers used the same term. Peugeot had the Reynolds equivalent (3 tubes renforce) on the PR-10 at least as far back as 1971.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by Tom on 9/1/2003 at 1:19:15 AM
Thxs guys, I'm pretty knowledgable of the Reynolds tubesets and thought I had a good handle on Columbus, but now I'm not so sure! John E., on you Bianchi, is the tubing decal a Bianchi decal, Bianchi/Columbus decal or a Columbus decal? I hate to hammer this to death, but I'm just trying to appreciate when Columbus officially made Tre Tubi sets available to framebuilders as a standard tubeset. A Bianchi or Bianchi/Columbus decal would indicate that tubeset was customer specified, as opposed to standard offering from Columbus.

Isn't it funny how that 1 cent tubing decal becomes the most important item on the entire bike? I remember reading about the big flack over the wording on one Reynolds 531 decal. Originally, the decal read, in part, "butted tubes forks and stays". Apparently, many customers interpretted this as meaning that the fork and stays were butted, in addition to the frame tubes. One manufacturer was sufficiently irritated that they persuaded Reynolds issue a new decal that clarified the situation and read, in part, "fork blades, stays and butted frame tubes". To-day, that situation would probably result in a multi-million dollar class action suit for misrepresentation.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by Titlist on 9/1/2003 at 3:20:54 PM
Interesting, and if not already said, why the fork, has the Reynolds materials sticker (often, the little triangles) as well as the frame. This gets into a whole lot, when one advertises bike with a "sturdy fork", I reread it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ItalVega... posted by John S on 9/2/2003 at 5:08:39 AM
Tom my memory is not the greatest for detail, but I have seen at least three early 70's italian frames (2 ItalVega's) with a triangualr columbus tubing sticker. It did say "Tre" something and a very knowledgable friend immediately called it "Tre-Tubi". Others have acknowledged the same, so I figured it was pretty common knowledge. As John E noted, it refers to main tubes with others of straight gage or who knows what horrors?!

MISC:   Campy Gran Sport Derailleur posted by: Rob on 8/30/2003 at 12:11:32 AM
I've got a chance at a Campy 'Gran Sport'rear derailleur. It looks pretty good...clean anyway, and it doesn't look too heavily used...

What would be too much to pay for something like that?

   RE:MISC:   Campy Gran Sport Derailleur posted by John S on 8/30/2003 at 12:31:40 AM
Check completed auctions on ebay to see if you can tell. I bought a nice one at a bike-swap for $20. Some act as though old Campy is worth it's weight... If you need it for a restoration, it could be worth a lot to you. If it's just cool to have in inventory for future use, don't pay much as these are not as rare as some would have you believe.

John S

   RE:MISC:   Campy Gran Sport Derailleur posted by Tom on 8/30/2003 at 1:58:39 AM
Rob, I have been tracking these rear derailleurs on Ebay for a while, as I need one for my Legnano restoration. Unfortunately, they seem to be a hot item. Clean and in good working order will bring in excess of $60 U.S.

The heyday for the Gran Sport was the late 50's and early 60's. While they are not rare, I wouldn't exactly call them common. Not a lot of people (in North America anyways)were riding top end lightweights back then. Just be aware that there was a 70's Nuovo Gran Sport that is worth significantly less.

If you don't want it, I'm interested!

   Campy Gran Sport Derailleur posted by John E on 8/31/2003 at 8:12:15 PM
If you are running 10-speed or 12-speed half-step gears, no wider than, say, 52-48 / 13-26, you can get by with Gran Sport front and rear derailleurs. However, because the rear's cage is pivoted directly on the axis between the two wheels and because of the front's push-rod action, neither is happy with a 53-39 or even a 52-42 front combo. When buying a Gran Sport front, make sure the body is not excessively worn where the pushrod emerges -- I had to scrap the original Gran Sport on my Capo because excess wear in this area made it shift extremely poorly.