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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:Dawes Echelon posted by: roxy on 2/18/2004 at 6:01:32 AM
I have asked in the english roadster forum about my Dawes Echelon and did not get a whole lot of info about it there.Maybe this is a better place.I guess it is a pretty decent bike but not really valuable.A friend gave it to me(It belonged to her former boyfriend I think)and I spent about 250.- on a tuneup including new tires sear and seatpost headset and brakepads.I don't think I wasted my money.I finally have my Echelon totally dialed in.It is now a great riding bike.It has a reynolds frame and about 30 years ago when I was in a bike club and riding every day and even raced on occasion,this would have been a bike I would have really wanted.
A lot of time went by since then and I'm not familiar with the new bikes.My Dawes weighs about 24 pounds US and I wonder how much lighter the modern racing bikes are.
I really don't need the lightest bike anyway since I am about 20 pounds overweight right now and I'd rather loose a few pounds around my belly instead of getting a lighter bike.But just out of curiosity.How light is a decent racing bike nowadays?

   Dawes Echelon posted by John E on 2/18/2004 at 3:18:22 PM
Unless you are racing, an 11kg/24lb bicycle is NOT heavy. My 1959 Capo "Modell Campagnolo," weighs almost that much, and it is a relatively high-end specimen of its vintage. At 10kg/22lbs, my 1981 Bianchi "Campione d'Italia" is typical of the better road bikes of its time. Today's high-end road racing bikes run 8 or 9kg, i.e., somewhat below 20lbs.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:Dawes Echelon posted by T-Mar on 2/18/2004 at 4:43:46 PM
It all depends on what you consider a "decent racing bike". The lower limit is 15lbs (6.8 kg), which is the minimum imposed by the UCI for professional and amateur, licensed racers. At the other end, a modern club racer would typically weigh a pound or two less than your Echelon. I consider my 2001 Pinarello Prince with Campagnolo Chorus and a Proton wheelset as a typical modern racing bicycle. It weighs in at under 18 lbs.

Of course, all this light weight comes at an expense, namely big dollars or reliability. To maintain the reliability level, manufacturers have to use stronger, more exotic materials, which drive up the cost. The alternative is to use traditional materials and make items smaller and/or thinner, which decreases reliability.

For the manufacturers, this a ponderous balancing act. They play off cost, weight and reliability. As the consumer, you have to choose the combination that suits your needs. Just don't be foolish enough to believe that you will find a reliable, light and inexpensive bicycle. Check out the warranties. The days of lifetime frame warranties are just about extinct. Three to five years are typical for most lightweight frames. Some high end frames even have rider weight and mileage restrictions. Even Campagnolo have replaced their lifetime warranty with three years, and on top of that there is a disclaimer for riders over 180 lbs.

While I believe that manufacturers do their best to provide a safe, well engineered product (especially in to-day's litigious society), there is a significant and ever increasing portion of the marketplace that wants a professional level bicycle. Obviously, such machines have a definite lifespan, given their intended use, and have led to the limited warranties and disclaimers that are becoming ever more prevalent.

What is really scary, is to think of the potential reliability problems that will face collectors of the current, high end machines, twenty years down the road. Will those bicyles be safe to ride?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:Dawes Echelon posted by Rob on 2/18/2004 at 5:52:07 PM
...and for those of you who care about these things...here's the latest contender for the lightweight crown:


...apparently it's a 9.19lb little bundle of joy... I would humbly suggest you might not want to go near any potholes...or eat too heavy a lunch...:)

   weight and reliability posted by John E on 2/18/2004 at 9:04:47 PM
T-Mar raises the crucial issue of sacrificing reliability for weight savings. Even the frames, cranks, stems, and handlebars of 30 years ago had finite lifespans, limited by materials fatigue; despite advances in materials science, the situation is arguably even worse today. Since I fail to understand the modern consumer's preference for a fragile racing thoroughbred over a sporty, practical, comfortable touring or club bike, I'll stick with my vintage hardware.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:Dawes Echelon posted by JONathan on 2/18/2004 at 9:58:20 PM
Roxy, I have two Dawes' and they are lightweight touring bikes. The "Galaxy" is designed for touring or long rides, as the comfort factor (whatever that is) figures strongly.
The "RealmRider" is setup like a UO-8 (Peugeot) contemporary, IMHO. Both are a tad less massive than the latter...guessing 25-26#'s. Based on what you have described, I think your choice was excellent as a restore-to-ride project.
They are extremely well made bikes. At 220#'s (in dry weather) and the tendancy for me to tear up the running gear, has made me extra scrutinous of anything under 30#'s. My '86 "Team FUJI" is just above 22#'s with quad-butted Tange tubing and unlike the 21# Raleigh-USA "Technium", the Team FUJI is comfortable and it is high performance.
The TF doesn't look like it would be comfortable, based on geometries, but those guys figured it all out. Unless you race seriously, I think you have the best choice in what you have going. The main thing is fit. I trust you had figured all that out before going on with the refit.
BL, I hear what you're saying, Tom, about the extremes lightness reaching the cross-point of durability. I can't imagine a steel frame under 22#'s that could offer long service life. My Team FUJI represents about the limit for me; they cut down weight where it wasn't essential (quad-butting), used extremely strong tubing and put it together with great know-how.
When I see that keeping up with the packs on the expressway while coursing my 2030 Raleigh "Sprite" from the '70's, the performance differences are greatly intertwined with the rider more so than any few units of mass differences in frame weights....Just keep it on the straights!
What kind of decent performing bike can you get for $250? You done great.

   RE:Dawes Echelon posted by jim on 10/3/2006 at 9:40:59 AM
I have a Dawes Echelon.Discovered it in my dad's basement. As far as I can recall it was bought around 1980. Would this frame have been manufactured in 531 tubing as I would like to replace all the decals once restored?

WANTED:Suntour Bar end shifter cable housing? posted by: Joe on 2/17/2004 at 8:47:55 AM
I was wandering if anyone has a source for the original type unwrapped open coil cable casing which was used with the Suntour bar-end shifters? I have several bikes which could use replacements.

   RE:WANTED:Suntour Bar end shifter cable housing? posted by Kevin K on 2/17/2004 at 1:04:23 PM
Hi. I've 1 NOS set of complete Suntour bar end shifters. Everything, inc. directions and a nice used set with housings. I've also a NOS Suntour down tube clamp for the cable housings and a NOS Suntour chain stat clamp for the housing. $30 plus shipping costs if you are interested. Thanks, Kevin

   RE:WANTED:Suntour Bar end shifter cable housing? posted by Rob on 2/17/2004 at 5:42:19 PM
...I like that unwrapped cable too...whenever I run into it, I'll grab it up...it seems to stand up well...I assume it's some kind of high quality stainless steel. I notice it mainly seems to be used for the derailleurs ...and under handlebar tape...probably a minor risk of pinched skin if it were used for brake cables...I suppose it was intended to facilitate maintenance...easy to spread for oil, WD-40, etc. Does anyone know if it is still made? ...and by who? ...maybe,Dia Compe?? I also like that ribbed cable found on older Raleighs...anyone know if that stuff is still avaiable and who made it? Also colors?...all I've ever seen is white...

   RE:WANTED:Suntour Bar end shifter cable housing? posted by T-Mar on 2/17/2004 at 9:07:58 PM
I belive JONathan mentioned a while back that it is essentially automotive choke cable housing, so you may be able to find an equivalent at an automotive supply store.

As you state, the housing was stainless and was used primarily on derailleur cables, usually for bar end shifters. It was also standard as cable housing on upper level Campagnolo derailleurs.

I not postive of the reason for the housing, but always suspected that it was a combination of function and appearance. Since it is coiled, round wire, as opposed to flat wire, it would be more flexible and provide less friction. Modern, lined, cable housing has surpassed it in friction reduction and is almost as flexible, though it does not have the same aesthetic appeal.

   Suntour Bar end shifter cable housing? posted by John E on 2/17/2004 at 9:25:53 PM
When I bought two short lengths of stainless steel housing for the derailleur cables on my Capo, the owner of my LBS bragged that Leucadia Cyclery was one of the few places where one could still find such material. I suspect Loose Screws and/or Harris Cyclery (Sheldon Brown's employer) might still have it in barcon lengths. I am living like a savage with ordinary black cable housing on my UO-8's barcons, but it seems to work fine.

AGE / VALUE:Centurion Accordo posted by: Gralyn on 2/17/2004 at 4:13:13 AM
Anyone ever heard of a Centurion Accordo?
I spotted one today.....grabbed it right up in a second. It's old enough to have a 6-speed, but new enough to have Shimano aero brakes, Shimano bio-pace crank set, Shimano ders, 700C wheels with presta valves. It looks like it will clean up very nicely and look practically new.

I used to have a Centurion LeMans - similarly equipped - but it was too big and I sold it. I had an older Centurion Sport DX - but sold it, too.

I just don't ever remember seeing an Accordo.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:Centurion Accordo posted by T-Mar on 2/17/2004 at 8:49:52 PM
The Accordo was an entry level bicyle, that would fall between the LeMans and Sport models. I have specs for a 1987 model that matches your general description.

MISC:Campy Super Record posted by: Rob on 2/16/2004 at 11:19:48 PM
Gee...take a look at the price on this early Super Record der....16 hours to go...


Makes one want to go through ones' stash and see if there's anything interesting...

   RE:MISC:Campy Super Record posted by Eric Amlie on 2/17/2004 at 6:58:48 PM
First generation Super Record. Obviously very desirable. That's by far and away the most I've seen ever one go for though!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Proper Spokes posted by: desertcommuter on 2/16/2004 at 8:08:07 PM
I've been cleaning up a 1971 Schwinn Varsity that I got from an elderly neighbor. The rear rim is authentic but a bit out of round. Truing wouldn't be much of a problem, but I'm not sure of the spokes. The original ones might still be okay for adjustment, but something tells me that I should be prepared to rebuild the wheel, just in case. Dependability wise, quality spokes like DT would be my first inclination. But they are obviously not authentic. What have other people done?

   Proper Spokes posted by John E on 2/16/2004 at 8:22:03 PM
If you want a reliable, usable bike, go with the DTs, which also look far better than the original galvanized spokes. If you want a museum piece, use galvanized spokes and keep them away from moisture or salt breeze. For a ridable bike, "incorrect" brake cables and KoolStop pads are also essential.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Proper Spokes posted by T-Mar on 2/17/2004 at 12:50:50 PM
I concur with the wisdom of John E. If you want a display piece, orwill ride it sparingly, then go original. If you are going to ride it regularly, then judicious use of some modern parts, particularly when it involves safety, is warranted. Ease of maintenance, reliability and rider comfort will also justify upgrades. My particular upgrades on a vinatge regular rider always include cables, brake pads, tubes and tires. Many would also change bar tape, saddle and pedals to their personal preference. In your case JONathan, I think John E. hits the nail square on the head, as spoke reliability is a potential issue with a bicycle of that vintage, if it is to be ridden regularly.

Interestingly, in my particular case, the saddle is always a retro-fit to an old model, as my hindside seems to have conformed to the particular contours of a Cinelli Unicanitor. I just can't seem to get comfortable on the modern saddles, after having spent so many miles on the Cinelli. Consequently, I'm always on the lookout for them and have about 6 or 8 that I use on my favourite bicycles.

   vintage vs. modern components posted by John E on 2/17/2004 at 9:34:51 PM
When I bought my 1971 Nishiki, the first of many modifications was to replace the padded vinyl saddle with my trusty 1962 Bianchi-branded tensioned leather saddle. When one of my friends observed, "Ah. All the discomforts of home," I told him there was no way I was going to take a brand-new bike on a 50-mile ride without a saddle which fit me properly.

   RE:vintage vs. modern components posted by JONathan on 2/18/2004 at 2:21:32 AM
Vinyl has persistent "memory" to its shape, whereas the leather molds to fit.
My Rawlings baseball mit is the same way. Who would play with a new glove?
The gel seats are OK for touring.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:���Proper Spokes posted by desertcommuter on 2/20/2004 at 6:43:13 AM
Thanks for the input. As you can tell from my handle, moisture and salt breeze are not major problems, well unless the Salton Sea is kicking up, then it's more a problem of the smell of millions of dead fish. I bought the Varsity mostly to take to the local cruise-in to get the car buffs to reminisce and get the idea that collecting 10 speeds is as good as fussing with similar vintage cars. I chose the Varsity because it's like a Chevy Nova. Everyone has had one or knew someone who did.

For real mileage, I use my trusty American Eagle that I've had for 25 years. That definitely has DT spokes, Kool Stop pads as well as a cotterless Sugino crank and upgrading from an Avocet saddle to a Brooks.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:���Proper Spokes posted by JONathan on 2/21/2004 at 5:58:04 PM
DC, here's one plan that you may want to consider for that "vars". They make into excellent rides with a changeout to alloy wheels and cp brakes. Some might benefit from a changeout of the forged forks for tubular; such as the "Conti" and "Suburban" are equipped.
The frame won't wear out under any normal service, so while you are riding the upgraded bike, the OEM wheels can be restored to fit later, along with the old sidepulls and clunky rear derailer, as an artifact of the past. Since I have two "varsities ('68 and '77), I opted to restore the '68 as a show bike and to refit the '77 for real riding.
Aside from the interest in both projects, the result provides firsthand insight into the differences that component upgrades make in performance. Like the difference between a forklift and a pickup truck. On the "Eagle"; they are comfortable riding bikes. I believe Nishiki made them. Mine is a 3-speed "Shimano 333" with that bellcrank shift linkage.
Since the frame is too small for me, I decided to make it a show piece in my Japanese bikes. The yellow paint really stands out.
Good luck on the "vars".

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Cipollini bike for sale posted by: Steven on 2/16/2004 at 4:22:38 PM
A while back a few of you had asked about the possibility of finding old pro team bikes. Well, there is now one being offered for sale on Italian ebay. On sale is a bike that is not yet vintage but nonetheless very collectible: Mario Cipollini's 2003 team bike when he was World Champion. Check out the auction as the proceeds apparently go to the benefit of the disabled. The description is written in both English and Italian, so there shouldn't be any difficulties understanding what is involved.


auction: 3661267127

MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by: Joe on 2/16/2004 at 8:56:48 AM
This weekend, while browsing a local flea market, I came across a Panasonic DX 4000 road bike, at $5, I grabbed it up. It's labeled Champion #2 Butted Tubing on both the frame and fork blades. It has Suntour ARX derailleurs, Dia-Compe 500 brakes, Chrome Suntour GT dropouts, SR Laprade seat post, SR GT double crankset, Sakae Road Champion Bars, Panasonic scripted SR stem, and Suntour 14-32 6 speed freewheel and it has 700c wheels.
It's painted a light silver/blue metalic with a dark blue head tube and seat post, all of the lugs are outlined in fine gold leaf. The fork tips, and the rear dropouts are chrome plated. It also has a forged, sloping fork crown. The red and blue rectanglular aluminum headbadge is stamped '8193', this stamping looks similar to that on a later Schwinn, I was wandering if anyone knows if this is the case. Am I correct in reading the date code as Aug. 19, 1983? or could it mean something like 1988, 193rd day? It also has "Hand Made" along the top tube just below the "DX 4000" lettering.
These bikes were rare here back then, they were sold by a local Schwinn dealer but were never very popular I guess due to their cost compared to the Schwinn Letour/Traveler line up. I do remember seeing a few DX 2000's around back in the late 70's or so but can't recall much about them. The dealer that sold them has been gone for many years. This one wasn't sold here, it has a dealer sticker from a
dealer just outside of NYC, I called the number on the decal and they are still in business but have had several ownership changes though the years and have moved twice, no one even remembers Panasonic. They too were a Schwinn dealer during that period. They refered to these as 'one of the many passing brands they 'also' carried over the years.
Quality of this frame looks excellent, even the paint and decals show a lot of fine detail. The rims, most likely, have been changed at some point, it has Zeus small flange hubs and the rims are unmarked, but resemble a pair of Rigida 1320's that have been highly polished in appearance, and a set of DT stainless steel spokes. The saddle is padded leather and has the Panasonic logo on the rear. The only thing missing other than the original wheels, is the shifters and bar tape, I am assuming that it had either bar ends or downtube levers?
The frame clearances are also very narrow, I am thinking of putting this back to original if I can figure out what the original specs were.
It also fits me well, the seat tube measures 64cm c-c, top tube is 67 c-c, with one of those long 24cm head tubes. I trial fitted a set of 27" rims and with a set of 1 1/8" tires, the tires would rub the brake bridge and fork crown. THis is why I am assuming that it was most likely a 700c equipped bike. The geometry also makes for a rather short wheel base. It currently has a set of 700c x 23 IRC skinwall tires, and with this combo, there is still
little clearance for a much larger tire, (about 5mm between the brake bridge and tire). The pads on the short reach Dia-Comp 500 calipers are in their upper most position in the slot.

Does anyone know what the time period of ARX series Suntour derailleurs was?
Where in the Panasonic line up was the DX 4000?
Does anyone remember or have any info or posibly an old catalog for Panasonic back then?

   RE:MISC: Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Warren on 2/16/2004 at 1:55:30 PM
Arx were likely early to mid 80's as were the NGC 500's. Look for a 2 letter date code on the derailleur. The first letter is the year...Z is '83, A is '84 etc. The second letter is month...A is Jan, B is Feb etc.

That's a super bike for no money. Great brakes, nice frame. Typical high quality, mass produced Japanese frame.

   RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by T-Mar on 2/16/2004 at 2:44:11 PM
You can date the derailleurs as Warren suggests. For corroboration the SR cranks, stems, bars and seatpost should also have a date code cast or engraved on them. Fortunately, SR used an open format date code, with two numbers representing the year of production. There may also be a letter or a third number indicating the month of production. If all the date codes are within a year of one another, you will have a high confidence level that it is original equipment.

Looking back through my old specs it does not appear that your sample is a 1988 model. That year (and 1987), the DX-4000 was spec'd with Shimano 105. If you can tie down the year via component dating, I can dig a little deeper into the archives and see if I have specs for your particular year.

By the way, Panasonic imported bicycles to the US from 1971-1989 and was one on Schwinn's suppliers during the early 70's bicycle boom.

   RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by T-Mar on 2/16/2004 at 2:49:32 PM
Oops I forgot to mention that the DX-4000, at least the 1987 & 1988 models, was a mid-level bicycle.

   RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Rob on 2/16/2004 at 7:19:18 PM
Nice find, Joe...I would concur with the others...sounds like an early '80's mid-level product...comparable, I would guess, to the Nishiki International...that freewheel looks a bit too tame, though...I wonder if it's original? No way the Zeus hubs would be original...or at least not original spec....of course, the first owner could have requested the wheelset as an upgrade...

And, it's sad these bike stores now think of Schwinn and Panasonic as, "...one of many passing brands they also carried..." But I guess these guys have no choice...if they want to cover overheads and make a profit, they have to move product...marketing, marketing, marketing...no time for nostalgia...unless it produces a healthy cash flow....Sad, but that's the story of our times... but when it comes to my hobbies and pastimes, I figure I can suit myself...and I like the old lightweights...:)

   RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Joe on 2/17/2004 at 1:42:36 AM
I checked the date codes on the derailleurs, the front one is 'AE', the rear is a 'ZH'. I misdescribed the cranks as SR's, they are SUGINO GT's, and are date coded GC.
The bike came with a spare rear derailleur which I found in the tool bag beneath the seat, it's date coded 'YB', it's cable clamp screw is stripped out, it may have been the original? I am assuming that it was a Suntour equipped bike since it has a Suntour lower cable guide which looks untouched. Both rear derailleurs are long caged, and the front sprockets are 40-52 tooth. I guess someone stole the shifter for another ride. I do have a new old stock set of early Shimano 105 derailleurs and a frame shifter from that time period if I need them. I also have a complete new old stock early 'Arabesque' Shimano 600 groupo that I could use as well, but it may be just a little earlier than this bike?

I agree the Zeus hubs and European rims are out of place, especially on an Asian bike of this level. They look almost new, they don't even show any brake wear. The headset is pretty neat looking, it looks similar to a Schwinn deluxe headset but is a combo of Aluminum and Chr-Mo steel and is totally chrome plated. The pedals that came with it are Lyotard Berthet platform pedals but are 14mm threaded for a French bike, won't work here, but I can use them on another project. I am thinking that maybe the wheels and pedals came from another bike in someone's attempt to make one good bike.

I dismounted the tires, the rims are 36 hole Weinmann 513's with spoke hole grommets.
The skewers simply say Cursa. The hubs are actually unmarked but are identical in every other aspect to a set of new old stock Zeus hubs I have here. I kind of figured that the original rims were probably Araya and maybe Suntour or Sunshine hubs?

The marks on the downtube where the shifter would clamp look to match those of a Suntour cable stop and not a shifter, but the stem has no marks showing from the mounting of a stem shifter. The brake levers are Dia-Compe hooded and drilled levers without safety levers.

Before tearing the bike down, I added a set of old pedals and fixed the derailleurs into about 8th gear and took it for a quick ride, it's surprisingly smooth and much more responsive than say my Nishiki or Lotus. I measured the wheel base, it's only 38.75", about an inch less than my '78 Raleigh Super Course with a 25.5" frame.
I did run into one problem, one of the rear dropout adjusting screws was bend over and broke off with just a touch, does anyone have a good way to remove the remaining peice of screw? It's broke off flush at both ends. The other one came right out and I have several spares I can use if I can get this one out. I can drill it out, and re-chase the threads, but I'm leary of braking off the bit in the hole if it catches wrong. I have it soaking with penetrating oil now. Any ideas here?
Thanks, Joe

   RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Scott on 2/17/2004 at 4:16:42 AM
I'm afraid the size of the adjusting screw is smaller than the smallest "easy-out." If it is flush you may be able to super-glue it to a cylindrical rod of slightly smaller diameter and turn it out with a pliers. I'd caution you to make sure you don't get any glue onto the pars. If you drill I would use a tiny bit and set it up in a press with everything locked into place - you may get lucky and turn it out with no damage to threads.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Joe on 2/17/2004 at 7:35:09 AM
Most likely, the screw is bent and binding in the threads. There was enough of the screw showing to cut a slot in the end and try to use a screw driver, but no luck. It looks like drilling it is my only choice. I'll have to get close enough to the hole size to be able to chase the threads to remove what ever is left after drilling. Looking at the other side, the threaded portion is only about 8mm long and towards the slotted part of the dropout, I can probably drill away the part that is not within the threads first, then concentrate on getting the remainder out.
I was also wandering if the screw itself was softer than the dropout? If so, I could posibly drive the screw out without desroying the threads? My biggest concern is drilling and missing exact center and not being able to reach the threaded area to remove the rest of the screw.
If it wasn't on a nice looking chrome dropout, I'm certain a little heat would loosen it, but I wouldn't chance damaging a nice frame that way. I do have some small reverse drill bits that may actually catch and drive out the screw part way.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by JONathan on 2/17/2004 at 10:43:13 AM
You're in luck with a piece of the threaded rod sticking out. I would soak that thing with Liquid Wrench. Tip the frame so you can let gravity work for you. Now, get a small curved jaw Vise-Grips...that's the brand, not ab imitation pair.
Wear goggles and clamp the vise grips real tight around the stub. Now, work it back and forth lightly and put some LQ on the threads. Work some more. Clamp the grips as close to the dropout as you can. Try cranking it out slowly. The screw driver doesn't get enough purchase and it will break the slot off.
Good luck, JONathan
BTW, if you have to drill; file the end flat and use a sharp punch to initialize the hole, start with a small bit with cutting oil and drill a hole. Go to the next size bit and chase the first hole. When you get to the bit that is just smaller than the screw you might just pull the threads back out, with no damage to the threads of the dropout.
This has worked for me drilling out screws that were frozen into a cast iron block.

   RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by T-Mar on 2/17/2004 at 9:42:21 PM
The end of the adjuster screw in the axle slot often has a machined slot in it, to accept a small screwdriver. Barring that, I would proceed on JONathan's advice. Should you end up drilling it out and chasing the threads, the proper tap is a 3mm x 0.5mm. Good luck!

Your date codes are quite a mix, leading one to believe that the original owner may have upgraded more components than the wheels. Since my previous posts, I have found a road test for the 1986 model. It more closely represents your sample, having SunTour derailleurs, though the specs call for the Sprint series. Interestingly, it also appears that the original owner changed the gearing, for something more general purpose. The data for the 1986-1988 models indicate that it was more of a "club racer" with relatively narrow 42/52T and 13-22T or 13-24T gearing.

   RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by JONathan on 2/18/2004 at 2:38:44 AM
The "AR" and "ARx" were introduced, 1981...as Warren stated; "early '80's" is a good estimate for dating the bike.
I have seen that spring steel cable housing somewhere. I'll try to find out.

   RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Joe on 2/18/2004 at 2:08:47 PM
Vise grips and screw driver both failed, there is no sign of movement in the remaining piece of screw. I will have to drill and chase the threads.
I found two links to some Panasonic info: http://www.yellowjersey.org/pana.html
After being able to check the serial number, mine is dated as a very late 1983 production frame. Thus making the front derailleur the latest component, 5/84 I believe (AE). I wouldn't think it too unlikely that a frame made in November of '83 may have sat around a few months or so awaiting assembly?
I recieved several emails from others with Panasonic bikes, all with an assortment of equipment. It appears that the later models did switch to Shimano. But mine, having no sign of any Shimano probably was all Suntour with only the component models being still up in the air.
Wasn't Sprint a fairly low end line, especially for a mid range bike? I have a Nishiki Custom Sport which I bought in 1985 which came with AR series derailleurs and it's a far lesser model than the Panasonic. As for date code comparison, the Nishiki is a 1984 model with der. codes of 'AA'(Frt.)and 'ZB'(Rr). I bought this in January of 1985 and assembled it myself right out of it's box. It's date codes span from 02/83 to 01/84 on the derailleurs. It too has Dia-Compe 500 brakes but with lesser model levers.
Also, the fact that there is a spare rear derailleur, both long cage says it was set up with the wide range gearing for at least a while.
Does anyone have any info on an 1983 to determine original equipment?

T-Mar, Do you know if the 1986 model was made in Osaka or Taiwan? It appears that the latere models were no longer made in Japan, a pic of a 1985 DX2000 I found shows a much different looking frame and a totaly different decal style.

I have a late 70's/early 80's Nishiki International, and in comparison, the fit and finish doesn't even come close to that of the Panasonic frame. The closest comparison I have is probably my 1982 Lotus with Tange #1 tubes, (model Unknown), but the Panasonic frame is much nicer in detail.
I wander how much the quality dropped when they started building them in Taiwan?

   RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Rob on 2/18/2004 at 5:26:58 PM
Joe...I sometimes have trouble keeping the names straight...but as I recall the Sprint line was second to Superbe or Superbe Pro...the cheap, heavy steel line was 'Spirt'...I run into those constantly when I'm searching for gems in the parts bins...(...my last little find was a LePree front der. in nice shape...$5CDN)

I'm no expert when it comes to metal fabrication, I usually managed to break off drill bits...making a small problem into a big problem...but I would be super careful, plan the process well, and be patient...if you think a broken screw is a problem, try getting a snapped off drill bit out...:) I wrecked a highend SunTour der. (I forget the model)..last June trying to drill out a seized limit screw...also gave myself tendonitis during the process...which still hasn't fully gone away...:)

I think you have the Panasonic figured out pretty good...I'm a little perplexed at the ARx stuff...on a higher end, SunTour-equipped bike I would have thought it might be Cyclone M-II...The Panasonics...at least the few I've seen...do present themselves well...A nice find for basically no cost...

   RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Joe on 2/20/2004 at 5:22:24 AM
What year did Cyclone M-II derailleurs come out?
I ran into another problem with the rear derailleurs, one has a stripped cable clamp screw, and the other's rear cage mounting stud is spun in the cage. I tried to swap cages, but the upper casting is different between the two. I guess Suntour made a running change with in the two month difference between the two I have. I'm sure I can locate another rear derailleur, but at this point, I'm still not 100% positive that the ARX stuff belongs on it or not.
Was Sprint the series that used the alloy front derailleur cage? I have several of those sets, but they have no model identification on them. They look similar to the early Cyclone derailleurs on my '78 Raleigh Super Course.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Rob on 2/20/2004 at 5:28:57 PM
Joe...I can't quite remember the start date for the Cyclone M-II line, but it was the very early '80's...I'll check when I get home...the Sprint line was higher end alloy...here's a site you might find helpful...


   RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Rob on 2/20/2004 at 11:11:19 PM
Joe...I noticed in the article "Sunset for SunTour" by Frank Berto (there's a link in the site I mentioned above), that the Cyclone Mk II hit the market in 1981...

   RE:RE:MISC:Panasonic DX 4000 posted by Joe on 2/21/2004 at 8:11:25 AM
In the article at "Sunset for Suntour" it reads the following: "SunTour had 13 different lines of derailleurs. From the top they went; Superbe Pro, Superbe, Cyclone Mk II, Cyclone, BL, ARx, Vx, AR, Seven, Volante, Honor, GT, and Mighty Click. Most lines had a racing and a touring model. Vx rear derailleurs came in four different capacities."

I have a new old stock front but a very used rear Cyclone M-II. I was able to make a .040" shim today to adapt the later cage to the ARX rear, it looks like it should work fine, I will try this first, if it doesn't work out I'll hunt down a better Cyclone M-II rear der.
Does anyone know what tire size the DX4000 came with?
It has 700c x 23 on it now but I'll be using a fresh set of rims and was considering a set of 700c x 28 Panaracers. I'm leary of the 700/23's at my size and weight.

AGE / VALUE:marco pantani posted by: luke on 2/15/2004 at 11:30:19 PM
I just wanted to let you know that marco pantani is dead at 34 years,a 2000 winner of the tour de france and someone that really tried to overcome his vices,
may god bless him,

   RE:AGE / VALUE:marco pantani posted by luke on 2/16/2004 at 3:27:08 PM
Im sincerly am sorry,i caught my mistake.marco p. won the 1998 tour de france.We of course know whose won the rest.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:marco pantani posted by luke on 2/16/2004 at 3:30:18 PM
Im sincerly am sorry,i caught my mistake.marco p. won the 1998 tour de france.We of course know whose won the rest.

   marco pantani posted by John E on 2/16/2004 at 3:53:45 PM
Thanks for the heads-up. I had great respect for "The Pirate," and any man who is somewhat small and rides a Bianchi can't be all bad, anyway!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by: Clyde on 2/15/2004 at 11:21:50 AM
OK, I think it’s a 1984 Peugeot PKN-10, but if any of you experts can confirm, please let me know.

I’ve been meaning to describe this bicycle I picked up at the curb near the house where I used to live. Someone had put a sign on it saying “Free Bike to a Good Home”. Had it said, “deserving home” I might have left it, since I have plenty of bikes already. But this one turns out to fit and feel better than any of my other road bikes.

What initially caught my eye was the Peugeot lion symbol embossed on the sloping crown portion fully chromed front fork. With all the French components, I figure it’s a Peugeot, but the former owner destroyed any frame decals with a lousy spray and brush paint job. The fork also bears a Reynolds 501 decal. With info from the Classic Rendezvous PX-10 Database, it appears to be a 1984 model from the serial number “B 4xxxxxxx”. Another distinguishing component is a seatpost with a long bolt and wedge arrangement (like a stem) which is a must for this frame, since there's no sign of ever having a regular seat clamp bolt arrangement.

Except for the Shimano 105 aero levers, everything else appears to be stock. Perhaps maybe not the Sugino 52/42 cranks and rings, but everything else would be expected on a French bike from that era. Alloy CTA stem and bars, rear wheel - Maillard Helico matic hub (six gears) in a Super Champion 700C rim, front wheel - low flange Maillard hub in a Mavic Module E rim, Maillard alloy pedals (semi-platform) with integral Christophe toeclips, Sachs downtube levers, Weimann 405 side pulls, Sachs Huret derailleurs with rear labeled Rival and stamped ”4984” (another dating clue?), leather covered San Marcos 387 Anatomica saddle, and under BB cable guides with French writing.

I figure the former owner got a new bike and may have not had enough room in an apartment for a second one, OR he got frustrated with the hub bearings and noises, which were quickly noticeable when I took it for a spin. Previous LW discussions and references on Sheldon’s site to the Helico matic show its flaws (these bearing were very pitted). Well, the front had been replaced with Shimano axle and cones AND the wrong size bearings. So, the bearings were riding on the inner edge of the cone thus making loud pings and bangs. I luckily had a spare Maillard hub and transferred the axle and cones. I have one more bearing noise to track down (maybe in the BB), but other than that it’s a great ride. At 22 inches center to top, the frame fits me better than my ‘70s PX-10 at 22.5” C-T or my '73 Gitane TDF at 24”. So, with the addition of a speedometer, a Brooks B-17 saddle, and a color-coordinating water bottle and holder, it’s become my weekend ride-on-the-levee-bike-trail favorite.

Maybe someday I’ll repaint it, but right now, I don’t care to spend that much time on what I figure is a 501 frame. A LBS owner thinks it’s a PKN-10 because he recalls the absent seat bolt and a discussion with Peugeot distributor back then about that crazy idea.

Actually the bike wasn’t exactly free. On that family trip, since I had such good fortune to get a free bike, my daughter lobbied very strongly for a free kitten being given away on that same street. Although it’s turned out to be a fine cat, the vet bills have far outpaced the investment in the Peugeot!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by JONathan on 2/16/2004 at 12:31:27 AM
Clyde, there was a post about a similar seat-post. I think it was a Peugeot "triathlon" with Reynolds 501 just like yours.
Here it is, I just found it:


Those levee runs are great...I've morphed from MTB with a dog to road bike on blacktop, without dog. But, there is a dog park, now, anyway; and the thrill of being yanked off the bike had lost its charm.
The "triathlon" had Shimano SIS, which makes me wonder about yours...maybe yours is earlier than mid-'80's. Check the Sugino left crank for a date stamp. I think they have that stamped on the inside of the crank.
As you say, that may not be the OEM.
Good luck, JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by Dick in FL on 2/16/2004 at 5:56:45 AM
I also have a bike with such a seatpost. In my case, the lugs are cast aluminum and don't possess the requisite ductility for a conventional seatpost clamp. This expander-bolt design is *not* convenient to adjust which leaves me curious about the reason for yours.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by JONathan on 2/16/2004 at 7:47:06 AM
The Kabuki used aluminum lugs and aluminum cast BB. The seat lug was problematic, so the solution was the seatpost wedge. One, it is harder for your seat to be removed,
Two, water can't get into the seat-tube...not a problem with modern posts, but the old style had the open post. It allows for a stronger joint at the seat-tube, IMHO. Triathlon riding is pretty much a one ride, one setting situation, so the advantage of rapid changes is not an issue.
BTW, my Kabuki 10 speed is from the late 60's, built by Bridgestone, Japan. Peugeot had a couple decades to evaluate the design of the Kabuki's seat post.

   Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by John E on 2/16/2004 at 4:05:30 PM
I have a 1980 PKN-10 "Competition," which was Peugeot's next model below the PX-10 "Super Competition." I believe the PR-10/PKN-10 series always had Stronglight aluminum cranks and Reynolds 531 "3 tubes renforces," i.e., a double-butted 531 main triangle, with plain carbon steel (perhaps sometimes 501) forks and stays. The half-chromed fork blades on my bike have blatantly obvious seams, and the rear triangle is painted, not half-chromed, as on a PX-10.

For practical purposes, ride quality, etc., though not for collectibility, resale value, or pride of ownership, having a PKN-10 is as good as having a PX-10. However, if yours is a mere 501 frame, I suspect it is a cut below the PR-10, which would make it worth fixing up somewhat.

   RE:Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by Clyde on 2/17/2004 at 12:44:32 AM
Thanks everyone, I'll keep making adjustments and tune-ups - headset (alloy w/plastic covers) and BB next. If the rear hub becomes un-serviceable, I'll just drop in a new wheel. But that crazy seatpost looks problematic, since the tilt and fore-aft adjustment depends on a plastic insert (mine has a cracked edge), it's life-expectancy (or replaceability) is low.

I plan to add Suntour barcons next, which will match my other road bikes. Then, if the rear derailleur fails, an NOS Shimano Crane may be brought out of the parts box.

   RE:RE: Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by Warren on 2/17/2004 at 5:06:52 AM
Save that NOS Crane for a triple crankset with road gearing. I just put one on a Trek 630 with a 30/40/50 front crank and a 12-21 7 speed cluster and the Crane works brilliantly with it's dual spring action. Good racing ratios with bail out gears for big long hills. A great derailleur.

   RE:RE:RE: Help identify - '84 Peugeot PKN-10? posted by Clyde on 2/17/2004 at 2:12:58 PM
Warren, I'd do that but the NOS Crane is a short cage. However, I agree with your praise of the touring-model Crane, I've got one on my touring bike and it works fine!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Suburban posted by: Bryant on 2/14/2004 at 10:31:26 PM
The Thrift shops have been real dry for awhile now. Nothing but Huffy's and Murrays. So I started visiting auctions for bikes among other things, and came across a 1974 Chestnut women's suburban. It was in good enough shape but dirty and flat tires. I kept an eye on it while watching two auctions going on. I figured if it came up while I was there, I would bid on it. Well it came up, and I was the only bidder, got it for $2. Already go it stripped and cleaned, and it is starting to look like a beauty. I keep telling myself I don't need another steel wheel bike, but those Schwinns just keep catching my eye.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Suburban posted by JONathan on 2/15/2004 at 7:00:25 AM
Wow! I paid $70 for a his/hers about 2 years back...and that was 1/2-price!
You done real good. I ride the 10-speed, but the ladies' frame just sits. There is something unique about the look of the older versions of Schwinn...the real Schwinns.
A guy just can't think "fast" while riding one...then they're just dandy rides.
I like the solid, ruggedly built aspect, although I rarely take it past 10 miles....no hills either.
Mine has Shimano's "Positron" FFH and rear derailer (Positron II); everything under the sun on it pushes the scale to nearly 50#'s on the big ol fella. They are the Harley's of VLW's, IMHO.
I keep tellin my wife that she'd really get in shape ridin the "SuB", but the Raleigh "Sports" at 35#'s (alloy wheels) is tough to beat. We grew up riding big, tough bikes, man. Cool.

AGE / VALUE:Randor posted by: Ned on 2/14/2004 at 5:05:40 PM
Again question on such a marque.have a lugged three speed w/fenders side pull brakes .Has a Randor head badge shimano hub.anyone know anything about this marque?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Traveler posted by: Gralyn on 2/14/2004 at 4:35:18 AM
Well, after all this time - the Schwinn Traveler was still there. (Made in Taiwan, Chro-Mo frame, Schwinn-approved center pull brakes and safety levers, Sun Tour AR, Alloy wheels, Dark gray with silver head tube, Remarkably - down-tube shifters (bolt-ons), Sugino cranks. It was 1/2 price - so I came out pretty good!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Traveler posted by JONathan on 2/14/2004 at 9:51:29 AM
Now, that was a smart move. They are superb runners. Sounds about like mine, which has stem shifters with a brazed tab for a bolt-on downtube shifter bracket. I kept the stem tube job, as the mud and such gets all over the DT shifters, whereas the stem shifters escape most of it. I have no room for fenders with 610's front and rear.
Mine will out run my P9 (AO-8 variant?) and Moto "GT". It gnashes a bit in tight maneuver, but give it a stretch of clear road and you can wind it up pretty decent. If it fits, I'd run it...you'll discover what I'm sayin'. I dig the battleship color, too. You done good. What size is it? Round here, snooze=lose on the likes of the "TRAV".
Too many lookin' for those reliable, medium performance road machines. The sugino "VP"'s are tight cranks, if that's the one you have. They got a bit sloppy somewhere down the line from the maker in that the derailer tab cramps the axle a bit...I just filed the dumb thing to make more clearance. I would have made a better hanger bracket (what, maybe .05$ more cost?)...well, I did sort of.
Anyway, check that out to make sure.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Traveler posted by Gralyn on 2/14/2004 at 12:57:22 PM
The Traveler has a 23" frame. Yes, I rarely stumple upon a Traveler. Most Schwinns I find are World Sports. The Traveler is the best I have ever found in the Schwinn line-up (so far as finding them in thrift stores).

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Traveler posted by Kevin K on 2/14/2004 at 3:03:30 PM
Hi guys. I just pick up a Schwinn Traveler the other day. It's a 1990. True Temper tubing. Full Shimano Exage,7 speed indeded. 700's. 23" frame. While I've yet to ride it I'm sure it'll be great. Who made these bikes for Schwinn? Enjoy. Kevin

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Traveler posted by Kevin K on 2/14/2004 at 3:10:47 PM
That's indexed, not indeded.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Schwinn Traveler posted by JONathan on 2/14/2004 at 9:44:52 PM
I believe Giant and possibly Merida were the Taiwan builders. Mine has the Ar rear and same setup as Gralyn's, except for stem shifting on mine.
The 7 sp. with indexing is a marked step up. The late '80's and early '90's are staged in the modern era of VLW's...IMHO. The Tange tubing makes me wonder if you have a Panasonic branded mount.
The builders of my runner were true to design in keeping with a sport-tourer emphasis. Around town, they are tad "busy" handling. They like to run all day long on the open roads....a touring bike with spunk, is my impression.
When new, I speculate the Trav would be for an experienced rider who wanted a bit more performance at the slight expense of giving up the relaxed trail on the forks. What amazes me, is Giant (or whatever outfit it was) built a bike to match many that were much higher priced.
I think that era of Schwinn branded bikes may have produced their best bikes...excluding the TOL Paramounts, of course.
I have kept the brake extensions on my Trav, since the brakes are set up real tight to begin with. I also kept the steel bars to damp the road a bit.
A lot of Travs are out on the road, like the ol FUJI's...they rarely get deposited at thrifts.
Nice find on the '90. Get on the road.

MISC:Raleigh Record Ace Model 26 exploded diagram posted by: VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc. at OldRoads.com on 2/11/2004 at 12:23:59 PM
4 years ago a valued participant on the English Roadster Discussion Area sent us some great Brit cycle diagrams. At the time, only our hand scanner was working, so we only put a few diagrams on our site. Then we purchased a new flatbed scanner and completely forgot about these diagrams until they were rediscovered this past weekend.

There is a Raleigh Record Ace in there.
The diagrams are under our General Resources section.
Here is a direct link:


Vin - VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Reg... posted by: David on 2/11/2004 at 11:31:36 AM
A Lenton that's still cheap (tho' shipping is not)

And is this Reg Harris a Raleigh? Or what?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Reg... posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/12/2004 at 10:21:23 PM
Nope, the Reg Harris is well, a Reg Harris!

We all know Reg Harris, the immortal British sprint champion, and his being a spokesman for Raleigh c. 1948-62.

Reg was the first to suggest to Raleigh that they start a separate division for high quality lightweights. That was in 1962. He and the idea fell by the wayside during the upheavals surrounding the TI takeover and a major winnowing out of brands.

So Reg started his own bike business and this handsome mount is an example. I think he made bikes c. 1963-66. It wasn't very successful but these are sweet machines. But very much "bitsa's"... a bit of this, a bit of that when it came to components. Mostly good quality.

Of course Raleigh eventually followed Reg's advice when they took over Carlton of Worksop in 1970.

I think the Classic Rendevous site has a write-up on Reg Harris bikes and a few catalogue scans.

Oh, that Lenton was just a frame and went for 11!! Someone got a nice bargain from this super seller in Dorset.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:Reg... posted by marc on 2/12/2004 at 10:44:43 PM
I was damn tempted to bid on that raleigh lenton frame but I have a problem paying more in shipping for a frame then the frame itself. I've never shipped overseas but I wonder if that was the cheapest rate available? I actually think that with a little penetrating oil, WD40, alot of that rust would have come off and the paint would have been in decent condition. I've worked with alot of balloon tire bikes from the same era and sometimes a layer of rust forms on the paint that is easily removable.

As for the reg harris, it's definately a sweet looking machine but I have to question what's original and what's not. Especially with the mismatched deraileurs. Nonetheless, i think I'll keep an eye on it, wisconsin isn't too far from me and if I can save on shipping why not!

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Reg... posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/13/2004 at 1:57:29 AM
Yes, that was the cheapest shipping rate... this eBay seller is one of the best in the business, trust me (and him). He usually uses ParcelForce which is delivered in the USA by USPS and Canada by Canada Post. Very reliable, much cheaper than others and without annoying dimension limitations.

P.C. Kohler

AGE / VALUE:Brooks B5 posted by: Tom on 2/11/2004 at 6:15:57 AM
I saw a nice Brooks B5 saddle today at a friends place. He claims it to be from 1930's. I have not seen one before. He asked me if I would sell it on ebay for him. I don't know what to expect for it. Anyone know what it is worth. Should I try and buy it from him.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:Brooks B5 posted by Brian on 2/16/2004 at 2:07:32 AM
Best way to find out what something is worth is to put it on ebay. I had a dozen or so nos English saddles from my father's shop closed in the 70's. I was selling them at flea markets for $10 ea. and was happy to get that. They were came off English 10 speed bikes at the store and the purchasers wanted them replaced with a cushioned seat. I had two left, put one on ebay with start of $9.95, it sold for $185.00. Turns out they were Wrights Swallow saddles and very desirable to restorers.