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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   ASSO info... posted by: JOEL on 2/5/2004 at 8:17:53 PM
Hi all,
A friend of mine just bought an ASSO bike. It is a fendered racing style bike with Simplex 3 speed rear and a single front sprocket. Anyone have knowlege of this? Email for pix. Thanks.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   ASSO info... posted by Gralyn on 2/6/2004 at 3:18:35 AM
I posted several weeks back about these bikes. I saw some of them NOS on e-bay. I really wanted to get one - but just could not afford it. Search up the archives - there may have been some comments.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   ASSO info... posted by Joel on 2/6/2004 at 10:35:57 PM
Thanks, found it.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by: marc on 2/5/2004 at 6:49:35 PM
Well Urban Bikes is now my fav bike shop here in chicago. They got the stem and wedge out of the Raleigh Super Course I bought. I was shocked when they called this morning. They soaked it for 2 days, then locked the fork crown in a vise and were able to use the handlebars to move the stem.

I'm a bit weary of re-using the stem but they said it looked alright. If I use it I'll sand it a bit and grease it up. I think I read somewhere that grease does nothing to stop the corrosion of alloy stems in steel frames, is this true? if so, has anyone used the special grease used on spark plugs and such in cars? I forgot what its called. I wonder if that might offer more protection. Although if the bike is regularly maintained and not sitting outside for 30 years, a stuck stem should be less of a concern, right?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by JONathan on 2/5/2004 at 8:35:21 PM
I think that when water enters the steerer the reaction is speeded up considerably.
The place that is obvious is where the stem enters the headset. Water just loves to tricle down the stem and stop right there and seep into the steerer.
Alyernately, you have water enetering if the bike is hitting water without front fender to block entry. And, of course, the bike being left upsidedown on an outside workbench in a rainstorm doesn't help, eoyjer. Then, there is the atmospheric condensation of water that we all know about. So water is not good except for a quick rinse and dry to kewep the bike clean.
As for grease or similar films. Personally, I don't use anything that will possible reduce friction at that critical junction, Of course, due to some law of the Universe, this will most likely occurr when you can least afford a malfunction...like in a radical move.
Devising ways to prevent water from entering is the fix, for me. It's always easier to stay out of trouble than it is to get out of trouble. One trick that I've tried is a too place a "boot" made out of a small tire tube. A 3/8 inch section worked for me. You have to roll the boot up the stem before placing it in the steerer. BTL for me...keep it dry and check it once in a while...it's a good idea to inspect the stem anyway...I'm like you, I don't trust those alloy stems.
Good luck,

   Clarify posted by JONathan on 2/5/2004 at 8:45:10 PM
Just to sure, the rubber boot goes OVER the nut...NOT inside the steerer...that seems obvious, but just to be sure.
The best treatment is too wipe any water off the headset after a watery ride.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by Rob on 2/5/2004 at 10:43:26 PM
I have a 1973 Grand Prix (I think I might have mentioned it before...the bike that started out life in Sherman Oaks, CA)...anyway the stem is absolutely frozen...nothing has worked yet....so maybe Liquid Wrench???...I haven't tried that...this is a GB stem...the only other frozen stem I had was also a GB on a Super Course...that one ever so slowly did come loose...but it was a tiresome process. In this case, I do have to get the stem out...the bike pulls to the right...I'm pretty sure it's not bent forks, so it may be something to do with the headset, and the headset is dried out from what I've been barely able to see... I have heard that sometimes the stem has to be sacrficed, but I hope I don't have to go there..

As to the rubber ring over the headset, I've heard of JONathan's idea before...covering both top and bottom, in the context of keeping the wind from driving water into the grease when the bike is being transported on a bike rack...I think I'll try it on the top on my winter beater...I've noticed a bit of a surface rust buildup right at the lock nut...

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by T-Mar on 2/5/2004 at 11:15:34 PM
I would be more worried about damage to the steering tube than the stem. Given the relatively thin wall and larger diameter, the steerer is more susceptible to torsion damage (think twisted licorice stick). Inevitably, this damage will occur in the region between the fork crown and lowest point of insertion for the stem. Look for cracks in the brazing at the crown and distortion in the steerer (if the steerer was painted there may be cracking or flaking). Both these checks require the fork to be removed and in the first check, also the crown race.

However, there is one preliminary check that can be done with the fork in the bicycle. There is usually a slot or milled flat on the back of the steerer tube for the headset locknut. This slot/flat is normally directly above the the brake mounting hole. If it isn't, the tube may have been damaged when the stem was removed. Of course there is also the possibility that the slot/flat was orignally milled off centre, but most companies would have performed this operation using a jig. Regardless, the fork should still be dissassembled and checked, as alignment could still be OK even if the brazing cracked.

Seatposts and stems should always be greased prior to installation. The only exception if is a carbon component is involved. If the stem and post are the proper size for the seat tube and steerer, and are the bolts are torqued to the correct amount, then they should not loosen, even when greased. However, the torques should be checked periodically, as they can loosen due to over reasons such as vibration.

You are correct that grease will not PREVENT the corrosion and oxidation processes, but it will RETARD them. You should be applying a new film of grease on a yearly basis. It's a lot cheaper than paying the shop to remove a stuck post or stem. In most cases involing aluminum components, the problem is the formation of an oxide layer on the surface of the aluminum which effectively increases the diameter of components like posts and stems and causes an interference fit with the frame tubing. If left too long, the only resource may be to cut them off and mill them out.

While water is one source of the problem, perspiration is the other big one. It is more corrosive than water and is a concern for anyone who uses their bicycle on an indoor trainer. That sweat dripping off the nose makes a beeline for all the nooks and crannies it can find. It will sieze your stem, and blister the paint when it pools around the braze-ons. It will even quickly destroy chrome. Always drape a towel over the stem and top tube when riding a trainer (making sure that it cannot get in the front wheel if you are on rollers). Otherwise, JONathan's suggestion of a rubber boot fabricated from old tubes is a wise move for general purpose riding. When you have the forkf off, also install a boot on the lower headset cups.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by Derek Coghill on 2/6/2004 at 12:10:11 AM
If you're riding through the winter, when you do a service slacken the stem bolt and shoogle the stem (or re-grease it) which will prevent/postpone any seizing.

Shoogle = move around; Scots word.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by Warren on 2/6/2004 at 12:17:58 AM
The definitive stuff to prevent alloy and steel corroding is called Never Seize. It is poisonous, never use bare hands, wear nitrile/rubber gloves. It is absorbed through the skin. It works...as any BMW motorcycle owner can attest too.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by Stacey on 2/6/2004 at 12:40:21 AM
Not only good on spark plugs, but a saviour on exhaust flange nuts as well :-)

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by JONathan on 2/6/2004 at 4:42:30 AM
I've had good luck with Liquid Wrench on rusted bolts in cast iron blocks...it takes a few hours. WD-40 is a great lubricant and water dispersant (WD=Water Dispersant). I've only had one stem that I couldn't get loose...so it can be impossible, but I always try up to a point.
If only the wedge is stuck, you can remove the forks and steerer and isolate it from the bearings to do whatever it takes over at the ol vise and workbench. The stem sticking, means you have to work with less reckless abandon. I would remove the wheel. If you have a vise that's heavy enough you can brace a 2x4 in it and place the forks over that...a slight angle so the bike stays put. A saw horse would do it, too.
I try a few low impact taps on the bolt after the solvent you choose to use has had a chance to soak in for a while. If the wedge moves a bit that's good. Now, I remove the bolt and tap on the stem...not hard as you want to preserve those bearings and races that are taking the beating as well. Eventually, the crude breaks loose...if you're lucky...and the stem will come out with a bit of tugging. Like Tom said, the steerer "licorice effect" (I like that one!) has to be considered.
The only one I lost was a ATA stem on my Mercier project. I left enough sticking out to grip with a pipe wrench and twisted ever so little on one side, then the other. The stub came out, but the wedge was still hanging on.
I drove that out from the bottom up with an old 3/8 socket extension as a ram. That took the big hammer, too. WEAR GOGGLES if it gets to that.
Good luck, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by JONathan on 2/6/2004 at 4:49:22 AM
I meant AVA stem...the lousy one everyone talks about. After the stem is removed, you can remove the steerer and forks to get to business on getting the wedge outa there.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by jack on 2/6/2004 at 9:26:11 AM
What a timely thread! I picked-up a Paramount('74) that had been left outside and disassembled yesterday. Tried like hell to remove 3T stem to no avail. Rather than going to more extreme measures and risking fork or frame damage, I cut-off the stem to separate fork from frame leaving 2" of stem stub. After additional dousing with Kroil and trying to punch out, no luck. Again, not wanting to damage a beautiful fork, I took it to local frame-builder. He said he would mill it out at a cost of 20 to $40. I believe I have a better idea.

I will hacksaw two slots thru the stem using those plastic hacksaw blade handles for tight spots. Then put the exposed stub in a vise to collapse stem. I'll update the results, good or bad, in a day or two.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by T-Mar on 2/6/2004 at 2:26:59 PM
Jack, good luck! I tried that approach last year on a aluminum seatpost that was siezed in a steel, Peugeot ATB frame. It did not work! I even went so far as to hack saw two slots 1/4" apart and tried to peel out the strip. In the end I had to chisel it out and the remaining post could still not be collapsed and pulled out. As a last resort, I reamed it out, as your shop is suggesting.

In this particular case, there appeared to be actual molecular bonding between the steel and aluminum. When I tried to collapse the post after the 1/4" strip was removed, you could see the seat tube collapsing with it, via the narrowing of the cinch bolt slot. Everything I have read indicates siezing is due purely to a build-up of aluminum oxide that creates an interference fit. Now, I wonder if things are left too long, does some actual bonding take place? It sure looks like it!

This is not to say that your approach will not work. It had worked for me on previous occasions. Obviously, the degree of difficulty in removing the stem or post is a function of the conditions and time they have been left in the frameset. Again good luck, and let us know how things turn out.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by marc on 2/6/2004 at 2:29:11 PM
I think that's a good idea. That's what I was going to do if the shop couldn't get my stem out. I've never tried it on a bike before but I did do that on the shoe in my tub in my bathroom. I'd be very interested to know how it works for future reference. How much did you pay for the paramount? If you don't mind me asking. Sounds like you might have gotten a good deal.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by jack on 2/7/2004 at 1:06:32 AM
I sawed two lines about 1/4" apart then removed the little piece. Placed stem stub in vise, compressed then easily removed fork. Since you are essentially cutting blind, my greatest concern was cutting into the steerer tube. However, you can easily both feel and hear the difference between Al and steel. I couldn't find any marks on the steel due to my activity. Don't even try this without that hacksaw blade handle I mentioned earlier, it made the job easy. Took about an hour in total.

Marc, bike is a '74 P13, $225. Yes, a good deal considering it will clean up nicely as paint and chrome are still good but considering hours that will be spent...of course its a labor of love so I'm happy.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by T-Mar on 2/7/2004 at 2:51:24 AM
Jack, I'm glad to hear that the hacksaw method worked well, without having to resort to more drastic (and expensive) measures. Enjoy your new mount, it sounds like a beauty.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by JONathan on 2/7/2004 at 6:46:35 AM
The hacksaw method has merit, especially with alloy stems that are pretty soft metal. Was the wedge knocked down a bit or did you aquare off the blade and work it flush to the wedge? One method I'm going to try next one that comes up stubborn is to make a slide-hammer out of some 1/4" x 1 1/2" bar stock. Drill a hole for the stem bolt to pass through. Screw the bolt into the wedge from the crown. Brace across the vice and ram the forks a few times to loosen the wedge a bit. Go to the stub of the stem and use a deadblow hammer or just my big ol engineer's hammer and rap the stem. It WILL move for sure and just a tiny amount is all it takes to break the corrosion grip. Then WD-40 the steerer and stick the stub in the vise and clamp it down hard. Work the forks back and forth and pull at the same time. That ought to do it.
Then drive the wedge up and out from the bottom of the steerer to the top.
Tom, I used a boot on my Biscayne commute bike's lower headset race (MTB) and the bearing grease had zero dirt didn't dry out. It look s a bit goofy, but workhorses don't have to be pretty? I could hose the mud right off and not worry about it.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by T-Mar on 2/7/2004 at 7:23:12 PM
JONathan, yes the boots work great. I started using them about 20 years ago. They are perfect for vintage bicycles and only have two drawbacks that I've experienced.

First, the rubber tends to deteriorate after about one year. I believe this is because inner tubes are not designed for resistance to ultraviolet exposure. However, you should overhaul your headset at least once a year, so the detioration of the seal is a timely incentative.

Secondly, the boot looks rather ugly compared to nicely sculptured chrome or alloy headsets. For this reason, I tend to use the boots primarily on the ATBs and commuting bicycles. I tend to avoid them on the high end racing bicycles, though I once obtained a short length of clear, surgical tubing that did not detract from the aesthetics. Unfortunately, it did not have the same elasticity of the inner tube material and there was some water penetration, apparently due to capillary action. That experience was enough to cause me smear a film of grease on the inside of all my boots, as a precautionary measure.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by jack on 2/7/2004 at 10:59:02 PM
JONathon, the wedge is what clued me into knowing something was wrong in the first place. After loosening the wedge bolt, it didn't come up to tap wedge down. Looking thru bottom of fork I saw that wedge was stuck sideways! I tried beating the stem out but it wouldn't budge so that's when i resorted to cutting the stem off, tapping the wedge out the bottom, and the rest is history.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: IT'S A MIRACLE!!! posted by JONathan on 2/7/2004 at 11:43:27 PM
That's the secret. You always win. Nice going on that one. Post how the project ends up. I wish I could stumble across a Paramount at a price that fits my budget allocation for this wonderful hobby that is the VLW.
I have now a $25 cap/bike/month!!, since I forked out $100 for a Bianchi "limited". I knew I'd get some flack for that move. I must admit, the guilt has disappeared after a few rides. I just skipped buying any bikes for polite period of time.
The dog has his own house back.
Good luck, JONathan

AGE / VALUE:   Completely gone over. posted by: Douglas on 2/5/2004 at 6:10:35 PM
How do you "completely go over" a bike and miss something so obvious?
Either this guy has no idea or he's trying to unload a damaged bike on some unwary buyer.

Ebay item# 3658694324

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Completely gone over. posted by marc on 2/5/2004 at 6:58:57 PM
I almost didn't notice the damage you were refering too. I'm not sure what the hell this guy is thinking. Maybe someone should email him. I didn't check his feedback but maybe the guy knows absolutely nothing about bicycles, although I doubt that if he took it for a ride he would have noticed the damaged front end.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Completely gone over. posted by Kevin K on 2/5/2004 at 11:56:08 PM
Hi guys. I emailed him. So should you. The wheelset with the Phil Woods hubs is probally worth close to the asking price though. Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Completely gone over. posted by David on 2/6/2004 at 12:21:33 AM
I think he means that when he crashed the bike, he went completely over the bars. I hope he was wearing a helmet. (Maybe he forgot about the accident.)

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Completely gone over. posted by Warren on 2/6/2004 at 12:22:15 AM
The only thing "completely gone over" was the rider when he hit the parked car. He must have had his hands on the hoods...look at the bar position. While he laid there unconscious, this guy grabs his bike and puts it on ebay...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Completely gone over. posted by poguemahone on 2/6/2004 at 2:47:51 PM
I emailed the seller about the fork the first day the auction was up. He gave me a dismissive reply about how he'd part the bike out if it didn't sell, but made no additions/corrections to the auction. I believe I'd steer clear, no matter what he's selling. Not that you could steer what he's selling.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Completely gone over. posted by T-Mar on 2/6/2004 at 2:59:21 PM
With a hit that big, I wouldn't be suprised if there was also some buckling of the the top and down tubes, directly behind the head tube. As Kevin K suggests, anyone should consider this bicycle solely on the value of the parts.

Warren, your analysis gave me a chuckle. That was a good one, though hopefully I'm not having a laugh at the expense of some poor rider who just kissed asphalt and got his mount ripped off.

In this case the forks are obviously bent, but it made me think of another phenomenon that I have noted. Has anyone else noticed how the forks in many side shots of the whole bicycle appear to bent backwards slightly? I believe this is a function of the focus distance. Shorter focus lengths would cause a slight bending of the image at the extreme ends. The longer the focus distance, the more accurate the geometry of the image will be represented. As you can tell, I know a little bit about photography, but not a lot. Are there any photographers out there whe can corroborate my rationale, or am I totally out to lunch?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Completely gone over. posted by JONathan on 2/6/2004 at 4:39:52 PM
Tom, that is called "vertical convergence" which actually occurrs in our own visual field! The Greeks understood this optical phenomenon long before the mathematical analysis of systems explained it. The Parthenon appears to have corrected for this in construction!!
Normally when taking a vertical picture, the convergence is especially noticeable. A lense change won't do it, so you have the focal plane and lens tilt options, which are traits of a 4x5 view camera. As for the bike pictures, a wider angle 35mm camera lens (not a fisheye) would more likely effect axial geometry...like little beady eyes and long nose for a portrait is not desirable in most cases.
On trick, is to close down f-stop and correct with longer shutter time. The image is passing through less curvature (more parallel) of the lens. I can't say anything about digital cameras, as I use manual, analog systems. I need a digital camera, as they make sense for documentation. I wonder if the scanners could produce strange effects?
My opinion is that if it looks bent...right, it is bent.
Just my 2 c's.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   glenn's on ebay posted by: Bon on 2/5/2004 at 3:08:49 PM
There's a Glenn's on Ebay. Item 2223249397.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   glenn's on ebay posted by marc on 2/5/2004 at 3:42:21 PM
great book, but most of you know that already. I got mine on ebay, I think I paid 6.00 with shipping. If you don't have it, get it... if you're not a master mechanic like some of the awesome guys on these boards. I think its worth it just to read the page about how muscle bikes are evil machines and that stick shifts are extremely dangerous especially for boys. Why is that? kidding.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Raleigh Gran Sport posted by: David on 2/5/2004 at 11:49:55 AM
Nice looking bike here; seems to have the fork leg lamp bracket. Is it a 531 frame? No apparent sticker where I would expect it.


   Raleigh Gran Sport posted by John E on 2/5/2004 at 4:45:39 PM
Thanks for posting. I like this one because it represents roughly the same vintage and colour scheme as my Capo, which also came with Gran Sport derailleurs and shift levers.

The absence of a triangular Reynolds 531 decal at the top of the fork blade is inconclusive; Peugeot PX-10s had them (in French, of course!) on both sides, Capos on one side only, and many manufacturers omitted them as redundant with the main label. A frame of that vintage with at least 531 main tubes should indeed have a sticker near the shift levers or near the top or the bottom of the seat tube. I wonder whether Raleigh would have installed Campag.'s top-end gearset (the Record was not introduced until the next year) on a plain carbon steel frameset.

   RE:Raleigh Gran Sport posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/5/2004 at 7:48:26 PM
Ah, well... the rub with these otherwise delicious c. 1962 Raleigh-Rudge-Humber "lightweights" like the Gran Sport is that they were ALL made of.... plain 'ol carbon 2030 steel. Just like a Sports or a DL-1.

For reasons unknown to me, the last Reynolds 531 framed machines left the Nottingham production line in 1961... the final variant of the famed Lenton... the Lenton Grand Prix. Starting with the '62 model year Raleigh introduced a whole new line.. Gran Sport, Blue Streak and Sprite (not to be confused with the later '66 Sprite) which had top-end components but were still steel framed. Shame really. The Gran Sport started the important relationship with Campagnolo which did a lot to popularise that make with Americans. Raleigh went on in the 1970s to sell more bikes with Campy components than anyone with the true lightweights built at Worksop by Carlton.

What's so odd is the Raleigh dropping Reynolds 531 in 1962 just as they were bought out by Tube Investments which.. owned Reynolds in the first place.

Still a lovely bike.. there was a near mint Rudge Pathfinder Gran Sport on eBay a few months ago.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Old Raleigh Gran Sport posted by Warren on 2/6/2004 at 12:28:33 AM
It's a very cool bike and it should fetch a decent price. Supersize the wide shot.Look closely at the seat. Looks like a B17/15 Swallow. In good shape, that alone is worth $150

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Old Raleigh Gran Sport posted by P.C. Kohler on 2/6/2004 at 9:30:44 PM
Too true Warren... these machines had really nice components, it's just the steel frame that lets the side down a bit.

Roll Britannia has a simply gorgeous example of a Gran Sport in outstanding and original condition. See the Photos Section under the "Your British Bike" album, Raleigh folder.

P.C. Kohler

MISC:   Cold Biking posted by: Tom M on 2/5/2004 at 3:04:37 AM
I have not been out on my bike for awhile now because of the extreme cold conditions here in the frozen north( Winnipeg or as we refer to it Winterpeg). For the last few weeks the temps have gone down to -57C or -70.6F. This was an over night temp with the wind chill. The actual temp was -49C or -56.2F. Today it is -14C or 6.8F (our first warm day)with high winds making it around -30C. I am still impressed with the guys and girls on bikes here. The commuters are still there. Our downtown area has bike couriers, around 35 in total with the only company that runs them. They are out there every day. I take my hat off to them. With the group at 35 members they don't own a single vehicle. They are cyclists at heart. They ride in treacherous conditions, lots of snow, ice and the cold. Our local paper had a full page on them a few weeks back and it opened up my eyes a lot more about what they do. Lots of people think they are a menace to the roads but they do their job in this cold and with the weaving in and out of traffic it looks dangerous but none of them have been hurt in a few years.
Also in the local paper there was a letter to the editor about the cyclists and the person said they should not be allowed on the roads. They don't pay insurance so they should be on the sidewalks. Last time I checked Insurance is taken out for the vehicle not the roads. You pay insurance for the vehicle you drive. The roads are paid for by taxes and if you drive, bike or walk you still pay taxes. I hope our radio stations don't start what some stations did in the south. Cyclists do belong on the roads and they have as much rights as a vehicle. It always hurts to think that the cyclist always gets hurt in the end when an agressive driver hits them.
This is one great site and I have to thank Vin for hosting it,and the great bunch of people posting.

   RE:MISC:   Cold Biking posted by JONathan on 2/5/2004 at 4:05:44 AM
Tom, I read a great post about the cold weather riding. Can't count on me, as we barely get below 40 F, but I have some idea of the extremes. We were in the northern Ontario glacial scoured terrain near Buckhorn last November. Ice rain hit and it was like winter for a few days. Heavy hittin storm, set records across Canada.
I look for the post. Check back.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Cold Biking posted by JONathan on 2/5/2004 at 4:15:13 AM
Tom, here it is:
Read the thread about bikes in Canada...actually, I remember the excitement that struck me seing so many bikes up there.
Cheers, JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Cold Biking posted by Rob on 2/5/2004 at 7:28:49 PM
Tom...am I reading this right??...people cycling in that extreme cold!!!...I think I could handle the -14C (...with a balaclava...), but beyond that...wow!!! I went running a few times in Ottawa at around -25C ...that was an experience...all bundled up...icicles on my eyebrows, etc... I know that in the real cold weather everything dries up nicely and it's often bright and sunny. As long as the roads are clear, mobility isn't usually too much of an issue...

As to debating with half-wits about who should, or shouldn't, be on the road...I avoid those kinds of discussions unless the debate is proceeding on a reasonable intellectual basis... For me, commonsense is the guideline...although I have the legal right to be on most roads, I try to stay off the busiest routes unless I have no practical alternative, and then I try to be as visible as possible and try to stay vigilant....I take the view the vast majority of drivers don't want to cause anyone trouble ...they're simply trying to get from A to B as fast as they can without hassles...but sometimes, of course, they get 'pumped up' and frustrated at the pace...and take it out on whoever is the nearest target...sometimes cyclists...but probably more often other drivers....

Anyway...good riding

   RE:MISC:   Cold Biking posted by Rob on 2/5/2004 at 9:50:14 PM
I also want to say that riding my bike to work is far more relaxing and pleasant than driving...even in the rain. Everything seems smoothed out and generally rather refreshing...I tend to treat stop signs like yield signs; at red lights I stop and go at the narrow crossings and at the wide crossings, I usually wait for the light to change. Door to door, my morning commute on a typical winter day is 45 minutes with 2 or 3 minutes to lock up...all relatively smooth and hassle free...if I use my car it would be 30 to 35 minutes plus at least 10 minutes to get parked...if the underground parking lot isn't already full, then there's another 10 to 15 minutes to deal with the alternate lot...I can feel the tension building just thinking about it!!! Homeward, cycling takes about 50 to 52 minutes and 30 seconds to 'park'; by car 45 to 50 minutes, plus a minute to park...seems like a 'no-brainer' to me...rain doesn't matter...only 'black ice' and significant snow changes the scenario, and in the wet Pacific Northwest (Vancouver, BC) that, thankfully, doesn't happen a whole lot...

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknown Bianchi Frame posted by: marc on 2/5/2004 at 1:40:52 AM
A decent find today. Got a bianchi frame, well actually everything but the wheels.


It's a little rough but for 20 bucks, why not. This is my first bianchi and I don't know how to date them. I'm thinking late 60's early 70's. Came with valentino campy derailleurs, balilla brakes (alloy) and a TTT stem with alloy bars (they have that old look and shape to them). Well, the wedge is not stuck but I'm afraid the stem might be, what's with my bad luck and stuck stems lately! Anyway, can anyone help me date this frame, I think i'm going to keep it original even though it seems to be a low end bianchi. Still might be fun to screw around with, considering its my perfect size.
Also, anything I should know about the headset before I take it off? Also, what kinda threads does the bottom bracket have?

thanks again.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknown Bianchi Frame posted by workingbikes on 2/5/2004 at 5:11:21 AM
I've seen that frame knocking around for almost a year, and I'm surprised no one picked it up before you. I think it's a lower end frame, but nothing too awful. Ballila's and Valentino's are dependable and I've ridden them a lot.
I think Valentino's came out in 1966, so it's no older than that. Does the frame have a derailleur hanger?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknown Bianchi Frame posted by marc on 2/5/2004 at 8:09:49 AM
nope, no hanger it uses a claw. I know its a low end bianchi but I thought it could still be a decent ride. I mainly bought because it had pretty much all of its original paint and the decent components. I'm hoping its from the 60's, I've wanted to own something of that vintage for a while, at least in a lightweight. I'm just hoping that stem isn't another headache.

I'll see you saturday, going to come by and help out.

   low-end Bianchi Frame posted by John E on 2/5/2004 at 4:24:29 PM
The BB is definitely Italian-threaded: 36mm x 24TPI, tightens clockwise on BOTH sides. (I use LocTite on the self-loosening fixed cups of my 1981 Bianchi and early 1970s Peugeot.)

I concur with the late 1960s / early 1970s assessment, but cannot pin it down any tighter.

The frame geometry and craftsmanship will give you a surprisingly pleasurable ride, even though the tubing is almost definitely modest plain-gauge carbon steel, perhaps even seamed. The bike will be less resilient and noticeably heavier than a Specialissima of the same vintage, but it should handle very well. The frameset is certainly worth the $20 ante.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   wanted: lime green handlebar tape posted by: Lenny on 2/4/2004 at 10:15:10 PM
Hi All,

Does anyone happen to have a spare roll of lime green handlebar tape (Hunt-Wilde or similar)? I just added a '74 Lime Green Schwinn Varsity to the restoration queue, and it would be great to have some new tape to match the paint color. The green tape on it now is in bad shape (though the paint is in great condition).



   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   wanted: lime green handlebar tape posted by Blazernutt on 2/24/2004 at 12:36:09 AM

I have some at home...it's either Schwinn branded or Hunt-Wilde. I think I even have the bar end plugs that are color matched. I'll look and get back to you if you still need some.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Moulton vs. Moulton posted by: Brian L. on 2/4/2004 at 9:09:28 PM
Saw a well-used, but nicely made "dave moulton" (all lower case)dropping my kids off at school. Simple, clean lugwork and paint job, chrome fork crown and chainstay(s?). Decal said something to effect of "hand made in U.S.A from selected tubes". No tube sticker. Aggressive geometry.

Anyone know of any relationship between this Moulton and the famed British builder/designer Alex Moulton?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Moulton vs. Moulton posted by Bob Hufford on 2/5/2004 at 12:33:24 AM
No relation ...

Alex Moulton


Dave Moulton


AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot (Taiwan built) "US Express" posted by: JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 2:15:24 AM
A break in weather saw me sidesteppin the route home to get a looksee at the pile of bikes for sale at the local charity store.
There is a Peugeot "US Express" that looks like elements from three types of bikes are what makes up the whole. The frame is kind of MTB.
The BB is very BMX with one-piece and large shell and the wheels are 26", alloy Sumos; real nice, too, but the tires are 1 1/2", which is like a cross or hybrid.
Price is $50 US. A storewide 1/2 off sale is a regular event. So for $25, it looks pretty nice. The SunTour stand-alone "power shifters" are really cool. The MC style "Star" brakes are new looking.
The frame has a real solid design, especially in the headset and rear triangle. Instead of scrunched in chainstays, like you see a lot, these are constant taper to forged dropouts. The frame is definitely welded, with large gussets; they weren't taking any chances.
The front forks have the "safety" clips with bolted up axle. The rear is bolted up, too. Talk about a commuter! My big question. Who made the bikes in Taiwan for Peugeot? This is a well made, medium weight bike that won't leave you stuck in the woods. Paint is good, but there is a tad bit of rust here and there.
All these bikes take it hard out in the weather. They used to be indoors. Now, there are clothes packed so dense inside that it's hard to walk through to get to the back lot where the bikes are located. The bikes cost 3-4 times as much, yet they are all kept outside. Figure that one. The clothes prices are about the same.
They don't climb up like with the bikes' prices.
I think $25US just for those SunTour "powershift" ratchet shifters is worth it.
BTW, the Nishiki "Riviera" mixte was gone ($45). It was a good bike for under $50, I'm just a cheapskate!

    Peugeot (Taiwan built) posted by John E on 2/4/2004 at 3:34:20 PM
Several years ago, I paid $25 at a yard sale for a juvenile 24"-wheeled U.S. Express for my younger son. This Giant-in-disguise gave him a few years of good reliable service, until someone stole it at the local school playground, leaving a late model 26"-wheeled Magna (ugh!) in its place. To his credit, my son instantly recognized the significant difference in quality, despite the Magna's shiny blue paint job. I made him ride the Magna for a year as penance for his carelessness, then gave him his current bike, my early 1990s aluminum-framed Ross MT-1600 Rock Machine (another yard sale find), on which I had installed upgraded cranks and wheels (Shimano/DT/Mavic).

   RE: Peugeot (Taiwan built) posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 5:30:24 PM
Thanks, John E.. Giant built some real nice runnin bikes, it appears from all that I've seen. No junk.
This "US Express" with the exception of the BMX BB, is a lot like my Biscayne...which may be a Giant-in-disguise as well. As a commute bike for several years (one crash) and very little maintenance, the unit is still running pretty well.
The Peugeot is beefed a bit more and weighs more accordingly. I gave up on the Biscayne for all-weather commutes, such as they are here on the N. Ca. coast/ Bay Area, for a VLW "Traveler" 12 speed. Fortunately, my commute was earlier than the main flow, so I could get up to decent velocities.
The MTB bars are less desirable for street, as the drop-bars can get in closer when necessary. I used two locks for the Biscayne; one krypton horseshoe and a length of plastic coated cable to anchor down the wheels. A crude irony was the only thing I lost was the cable that I had placed over the seat and had forhot to hook it up. When I came back, the cable was gone, but the wheels were still on the bike!
The old saying, "If it ain't bolted down..." comes to mind.
I think I'll try for that ol "US Express", if it last until the 1/2-off day. Thanks for the info.

   RE:RE: Peugeot (Taiwan built) posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 5:37:53 PM
BTW, I really like bolted up axles for commute/grocery gettin', etc.. They are stronger, too, a point not lost on a massive rider in pot-hole country.

   CORRECTION posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 5:45:27 PM
Oops! I meant "nutted" axles...not "bolted". Like the old school bikes you had to carry the dog-bone to get the wheels off. Big deal, I'll just skip a second cup od java and the dog-bone won't load me down.
I've rarely had a rear wheel slip into the chain-stays with a "nutted" axle. Maybe a new post, here.
Rides, I'm back at it.

   RE:RE: Peugeot (Taiwan built) posted by Dick in FL on 2/4/2004 at 9:38:00 PM

What year is your Traveler? It is entirely possible that it was made for Schwinn labeling by Giant. The introduction of the first World Voyageur and World Traveler in 1973 was IMHO not handled very well. They were made by Panasonic to meet a Schwinn specification. The World Voyageur, in particular, was exquisitely executed. But my dealer disliked them because they deflected sales to savvy buyers away from the Chicago-made Schwinns. (He gave me a substantial discount on a Voyageur.) They were dropped in 1974 and the names re-appeared later on different equipment. About this time the UAW decided to unionize the workers with an autoworker wage scale. Schwinn responded by helping Giant build a new modern plant in Taiwan and relocating production there. I have always considered the Asian-built Schwinns superior to the Chicago "boat anchors". Anyway, my recently acquired 12-speed World Sport was definitely made by Giant and so probably was your Traveler.

   RE:RE:RE: Peugeot (Taiwan built) posted by Derek Coghill on 2/5/2004 at 12:24:58 AM
Some of the current Giants that I have to work with are heavy and horrible, some are lovely (xtc, for example - talking MTBs here). But I digress; I bought an old Giant road bike today for £10 ($13/14?). Red metallic paint, yellow rounded lettering, Shimano derailleurs , Dia-compe sidepull brakes. I'll have a better look tomorrow.

   RE:RE:RE:RE: Peugeot (Taiwan built) posted by JONathan on 2/5/2004 at 2:17:52 AM
I'm guessing early '80's. If it's Giant the code is not on the dropout. Merida (Taiwan) had numbers on the headbadge, where these are, but no "M" to mark it as Merida.
Was there another builder? The quality was all over, and I know that WV is a great bike from all I've seen and heard. Again, it was during the; "Whoever, whenever" period of farmed out building.
After working on the "Traveler", I go to do something on the "Varsity" and immediately start trying to remember where my bigger hammer is located. Hey, they are unique, those Chicago jobs. My balloon cruiser is not fussy either.
As for the WV and Travs, I can't think of any bikes that combine such speed with comfort. A perfect bike.....for this putzer, who tips at 220.
Nice going with the WV...lucky find.

   RE:RE:RE:RE: Peugeot (Taiwan built) posted by Derek Coghill on 2/6/2004 at 12:05:05 AM
Read the transfers....Mark IV D, apparently. I know absolutely nothing about it, except that I'll have to build a new rear wheel. Late 80's sometime, I guess?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   world tourist posted by: luke on 2/4/2004 at 12:34:02 AM
Hello all,
yesterday a freind at work told me he had a few bikes in his garage he wanted to let go.One was a weak looking huffy with many psycodelic colors [80,s ladies] and a fine mens 1984 schwinn World tourist that i have now in my room.
Complete with fenders and a great cranberry/gold pinstripeing original paint job,spring should fly by with this one.
Iknow it,s made in tawain,but would it have been sold in a schwinn bike shop?There were no wal-marts than and what iv,e found the new price for said bike is $186.00 in 1984.
Can anyone throw a truth to this?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   world tourist posted by Dick in FL on 2/4/2004 at 3:00:38 AM
Hey Luke,

I also have a cranberry/gold pinstripe Schwinn World Tourist, and of my 36 bicycles it is my favorite. I don't know the exact year of mine, but it has a Positron II shifter with a Front Freewheel. That suggests 1980 at the latest. What kind of shifter is yours? Anyway, sincere congratulations. I had purchased a World Voyageur new in 1973, but I had wished for the amenities of what arrived much later in the World Tourist. Does yours have a 5-speed or a 10-speed? The original list price you have been given sounds about right; the online Schwinn lightweight catalog does not list the World Tourist for some reason. The World Tourist has to be the most upscale bike to have been fitted with Positron. The Front Freewheel is a three piece cotterless design .... more elegant than the FF system on my Suburban. My WT was either a gift or a loaner from my brother (he didn't clarify its status) who knew I liked this kind of bike. He acquired it at a garage sale with its original tires debilitated by a popped-apart front brake for only $5.95. You can touch up paint nicks with a Ford Motor Company color that is readily available. Enjoy!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   world tourist posted by luke on 2/4/2004 at 11:36:42 PM
Hello dick,
My shifters are the shimano/leftE.M and rightP.P.S./whatever that may mean im not sure.I also have a 1980 world tourist that is a metalicy goldech brown.
I too have a large collecton of bicycles.
I think this spring I,ll sell a few.
Thanks for your reply,
Happy bikeing,

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   world tourist posted by luke on 2/4/2004 at 11:38:22 PM
Hello dick,
My shifters are the shimano/leftE.M and rightP.P.S./whatever that may mean im not sure.I also have a 1980 world tourist that is a metalicy goldech brown.
I too have a large collecton of bicycles.
I think this spring I,ll sell a few.
Thanks for your reply,
Happy bikeing,

AGE / VALUE:   found Trek 520 posted by: John S on 2/3/2004 at 8:37:48 PM
My thrift find this week was a nearly original Trek 520 touring bike for $20. Looking at the Vintage Trek site confirms it as a 1984 model, taupe colour... It's the littlest frame, only 19" ctt. So 1984 must have been the first year of SunTour Cyclone Mk-II derailleurs? The Dia-Compe cantilever brake pads look like Mafac - neat!

The dreaded helio-comatic rear hub...wont freewheel at present, haven't tried to "free" it. Any advise on doing this? I figured to start with a cog-remover tool, used gently. But what if this doesn't work?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   found Trek 520 posted by JONathan on 2/3/2004 at 9:07:23 PM
It's no sweat. That spurred remover tool ( I use vise grips, but I'm deft at it...not braggin, too much I hope) fits over the pot-metal lock-ring. Crank it clockwise, right outa there. Grasp the whole freewheel with a rag and pull the freewheel out and slight torqued clockwise rotation. The whole freewheel comes off the axle column, sliding off the grooves in the column.
Now, you get the cone wrench and cresent going to take the axle out, just as you would dp with a regular setup. That's about it. Note: I have buggered a lockring on a busted down wheel just to see what gives. It's pretty soft metal, so be CAREFUL and don't slip...you don't get a second try with those rings. Trick is to keep the wrench perfectly parallel across the top...perpendicular to the axle.
I have one Rigida alloy set rim, reinforced eyelets, that is just dandy. I run a steel rimmed set on a "pounder"...a Peugeot mixte (uo-18, carbolite...yeah!). Great ride. I have the ape-hanger bars on it, too.
Good luck...I advised about how flimsy that collar is, so....it happens, just remember, you always win.

   MISTAKE posted by JONathan on 2/3/2004 at 9:25:37 PM
Oops! The collar is right-hand thread so I meant to say; "counterclockwise" for removing the collar. Sorry, bout that, maestro.
Why can't I detect errors BEFORE I post? Gald to catch that one.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: found Trek 520 posted by Warren on 2/3/2004 at 11:43:53 PM
There is a great website with all of the Trek brochures scanned in. Go to ...


The 82 brochure is the first year that I see the Cyclone MK II derailleurs. My 83 620 also came with them. Your bike should have the longer caged GT model in the rear.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: found Trek 520 posted by Warren on 2/3/2004 at 11:44:36 PM
Mines a Trek 630 actually...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   found Trek 520 posted by T-Mar on 2/4/2004 at 1:51:34 AM
I believe the first year for the Suntour Cyclone Mk II was 1981.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   found Trek 520 posted by John S on 2/4/2004 at 3:36:57 AM
Thanks for response. Jonathan, I have the beer-can opener/lockring tool, took the freewheel off. It's the freewheel that is locked up, not the hub - it's somehow off kilter, the ratchets must be jammed, not sure I can open to repair. Now what?? Good luck trying to fine a replacement... Would prefer to keep this bike original and avoid having to replace the rear hub or wheel.

Thanks on the cyclone mk-II dating. Yes, it is the long cage GT in the rear, note the jockey wheel is concentric with the spring pivot. These are almost my favorit derailleurs, so light and beautifully finished, and functional.

The Trek brochure for 84 shows and lists my 520 nearly to the letter. Funky-cool crankset, I guess the styling is meant to imply speed.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   found Trek 520 posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 5:56:40 PM
Hey, John S., I pulled one outa the box and was lookin it over, last night. I checked a couple books...nothin on the "helico".
I'll have a guy look it over, who is a genius at all things mechanical, today. I have only removed the whole mess, never torn into the cluster,
Yours is "cocked funny"? That's not good. Usually the last cog is threaded on (left-hand) on the freewheels, but who knows what they were thinkin.
The cog may have cross-threaded itself or it the whole cloumn could be bent...I can't imagine how that could happen (and still have a wheel to look at intact), but it's possible.
I'll let you know...I put it in my pack to take over there. I'm curious, too. Usually, I just replace the whole thing, but that's a problem with the estoteric stuff.
Good luck, JONathan
BTW, I fixed up and gave away a TREK 620...which was a smallish MTB, almost a BMX bike. Nice little bike. Is the "6xx" a MTB series and the "5xxx" the road series?

   clarifications posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 9:24:45 PM
The outer cog is left-hand on the cassette types...Shimanos mainly. Now, the freewheel cogs (not cassette) are different.
The smallest cog is removed clockwise (rt. hand thread) with the chain whip. The rule is they remove in the opposite direction of rotation, so on older freewheels, the two large cogs thread on the inner side of the body and are right-hand threads; following the rule. I alwyas look for exceptions!
Bottom line for me, just change out the whole thing if it comes up lame in any way, shape or form. You have a kettle full of tiny bearings to deal with and the chances are there is considerable wear everywhere that to spend time fixing it isn't cost effective. I've seen the "helico's" for sale as NOS freewheels on the web, possible here.
Check 'em out. Meanwhile, I'll see what I can find out about this one sittin on my desk, right now.
Later, JONathan
BTW, the lockring on the old freewheels is left-hand...just to add more confusion!

   correction...forget it, but I'm trying posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 9:35:33 PM
OK, the (man I get confused easy) the cassette freewheels have the outer little cog tha removes clockwise.

The older freewheels' outer small cog removes counterclockwise, hence left-hand threading; the inner cogs (big ones) remove clockwise, hence righthand threading.
The rule applies to older freewheels only, I believe.
I think it's straight, now. Can't blame the keyboard, but it's hard when you think right but write wrong!
Rides, man I need a long one.

   RE:correction...forget it, but I'm trying posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 9:39:09 PM
Oops. "Counterclockwise" removal is righthand thread.
Clockwise removal is lefthand thread. Sub in the above post.
Sorry bout that.

   Helicomatic cassette FW disassembly posted by JONathan on 2/5/2004 at 1:46:55 AM
Well...it WAS interesting. Amazing what a guy can do while eatin a hamburger.
OK. This is for the 6-speed cassette (5-speed is probably the same except for the outer cog being a single, I would guess):
First, take the cassette off the wheel.
2. I used a couple of scraps of hardwood 1x1's to hold the larger cogs in a bench vise, the small cogs facing UP.
3. A chainwhip around the smallest cog and crank counterclockwise (I'm sure). The 13 and 15 tooth cogs come off.
4. The 17; 20; 24 and 28 tooth cogs slide off jsut like with a cassette system
5. Take a small punch or chaser and CAREFULLY (so as not to wreck any threads) tap the bearing ring which has notches that probably take a special tool, but with a punch and some patience you can circumvent the tool and get good results. Tap CLOCKWISE to start it moving. STOP.
6. Now take the whole thing out of the vise and place it on a rag, preferably inside a lid (I used a cookie can lid). This is a backup for any bearings that jump.
7. Keep turning the bearing lockring until it's free...going CLOCKWISE.
8. You'll see a whole bunch of small bearings and the core will drop out and the bottom bearings and top bearings will go everywhere, so I recommend holding the bottom and rotate to deposit all the top bearings into a can. Then release the bottom bearings and gain access to the ratchet.
9. I stopped short of taking the bearings out, since they were good. Just cleaned all the cogs and lubed the bearings with machine oil...light stuff and put back together.
The cogs have spacers, too. Don't forget to place those, except for the outer double cog that has a lip.
10. After threading the double back, place it in the vise with the blocks of wood and crank it down pretty good with the cahinwhip.
That's it. Note: I really had to lean on the chainwhip to spring the cogs...this was using the heavy duty Park tool. You find out where the extra $15 for the tool went when you have the hard cases.
Thanks to you, I now have a beautifully cleaned and lubed Helicomatic FW cassette to stick on my UO-8 that's getting there.
Good luck,
6. Once

   RE:Helicomatic cassette FW disassembly posted by JONathan on 2/5/2004 at 3:57:09 AM
Forgot to add that you need to put the cassette back on the wheel...without the locker, just to hold the inner column from moving...or...you can probably figure out a workaround such as a 3 inch bolt with a nut and washers at both ends. You don't need much pressure to hold the inner column while tapping out the bearing lockring. Maybe a dowel would be enough friction and no chance of wrecking the threads for the outer locking ring.

   RE:RE:Helicomatic cassette FW disassembly posted by Skip Echert on 2/5/2004 at 8:04:17 AM
Hello John S -
Lots of Helicomatic parts and info here:


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   found Trek 520 posted by John S on 2/6/2004 at 7:57:58 AM
Jonathan, Skip, thanks for the tips. No full Helio's available at Yellow. I'll hope to scrounge one somewhere but also try to fix the one I have for the experience.

Jonathan, me thinks your mind had too many occupations at once! I'm thinkin your persistance has rendered the correct forumla for disassembly, however.

AGE / VALUE:   PRETTY SAD posted by: Kevin K on 2/3/2004 at 2:21:14 PM
Hi all. At the risk of offending I'll start out by first saying sorry but.........OUR local paper here this morning has the FCC quoted as stating the Super Bowl episode will be investigated with fines possibly running "into the millions". It is only a big deal because people have made it a big deal. Yet cyclist were killed last year and DJ's encouraged callers to vent to the point of causing physical harm to someone simply riding a bike. What's more disturbing is the fact the FCC had to be asked to investagate what occured on several radio stations. Something is wrong with this. Really sad guys. Thanks, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   PRETTY SAD posted by Kevin K on 2/3/2004 at 2:36:12 PM
To further explain: I saw a cyclist get hit head on by a cargo van doing about 40 mph. It wasn't pretty. I was the first one to attend the victim and held him still till the emergency crews arrived. There is nothing, nothing funny about cars/bikes mixing it up. Period

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   PRETTY SAD posted by Gralyn on 2/3/2004 at 6:00:18 PM
Well, let's be logical here.....
OK, so what happened at the Super Bowl warrants an investigation, fines, etc. and many people are making a big deal out of it. If that's the case, then.......
Think of all the people who were traumatized!
Think of all the people who were offended!
Think of all the prople who can't lead the lifestyle they were accustomed to because of this incident!
Think of the pain and suffering!
Think of the lost wages!
Think of those innocent ones whose lives were shattered!

On the one hand......."Big freakin' deal!" On the other hand......maybe we should file a suit.....could be some big buck in it.....if it's that big a deal....maybe we can recover some of the damages.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   PRETTY SAD posted by Rob on 2/3/2004 at 6:14:27 PM
Thanks for the input Kevin...at the risk of stating the obvious, it is, of course, "all politics", in the worse sense of the expression. The FCC doesn't want to be caught on the wrong side of any high profile issue...it could be 'fatal' to some high level careers if a powerful poltician gets sideswiped at the polls over an issue like this...as to cyclist safety...well what can I say, we live in a society (US and Canada) where thousands are killed each year in all kinds of car/truck accidents (...including cyclists)...progress is made, but to me it seems painfully slow...cars are safer, but not, IMHO, as much as they could be...highways are constantly being improved, but it seems to take a long time...bike/walking trails get built but slowly....Highway safety programs seem to me to have been more frequesnt in the past than they are now...or maybe that's just my perception...It seems to me humans need constant reminding to drive safely, don't follow too closely, leave yourself a safety margin, don't forget about 'black ice', etc, etc...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   PRETTY SAD posted by Kevin K on 2/3/2004 at 6:22:35 PM
Hi Gralyn. My point wasn't the show on Sunday. Back on October 15, 1978 a federal energy bill was passed that includes" an important declaration of federal policy to foster bicycling as a transportation alternative"( Schwinn Reporter November/December 1978 ) My point was the what happened in reference to the cyclists and comments made on the radio stations. That is something to be offended about. People willing to ride bikes for pleasure or because it is their sole means of transportation shouldn't be harrassed in any manner. Period. It takes very little effort to rise above that level of thinking. I said it before, I'll say it again. If anyone thinks that behavior is appropiate we have several police officers here in town on cycles. Pull one of those stunts with them and see where it lands you. I know the guys. Few people know this but some our larger cities, I'll cite Chicago, were actually set up for bicycles over 100 years ago. Not cars. There should ALWAYS be mutual respect on the road. Thanks.

    PRETTY SAD posted by John E on 2/3/2004 at 10:13:26 PM
The biggest problem where I live (San Diego County, California) is that one must generally use at least one high-speed prime arterial road or freeway to get from Point A to Point B. Our local 25mph/40kph residential and local business streets dead-end at various geographical boundaries and do not offer the through transportation alternative of their equivalents in Los Angeles' vast grid.

We lay out our modern cities and roadways to encourage motor vehicle use, and sympathetic juries, judges, and departments of motor vehicles hesitate to revoke the driver's licenses of those who simply should not be piloting lethal weapons on the street. With more pedestrian-, bicycle-, Segway-, and Neighborhood electric Vehicle-friendly roads and improved public transit, we could actually make it tougher to obtain and to retain one's driving privilege, without taking away anyone's freedom and mobility.

Improving the attitude and skill level of motorists will save far more lives than all of the airbags and collapsing steering columns ever built. (Since I designed an airbag controller chip at TRW around 1990, I suppose this could be construed as an admission against interest. :) )

   RE: PRETTY SAD posted by Kevin K on 2/3/2004 at 11:33:33 PM
Dear Oldroads. Thank you for allowing this discussion. Kevin

   RE:RE: PRETTY SAD posted by frank on 2/4/2004 at 1:41:08 AM
The world is a me first than you attitude,dog eat dog,melting pot of people[humans]who think they can drive 70 80+ on our highways in there fancy gas guzzling s.u.v.s that will die just like the station wagons,massive hummers that have no use on the street,and caddilac escalades that make me laugh when i see them on the roads.
I dont support the $1.50 A gallon of gas for these wanna-b-some-bodys to burn up the earths riches and not to care about it.
Thats why i ride my bike.
someday if were all lucky,we all will,

   RE:RE: PRETTY SAD posted by frank on 2/4/2004 at 1:41:36 AM
The world is a me first than you attitude,dog eat dog,melting pot of people[humans]who think they can drive 70 80+ on our highways in there fancy gas guzzling s.u.v.s that will die just like the station wagons,massive hummers that have no use on the street,and caddilac escalades that make me laugh when i see them on the roads.
I dont support the $1.50 A gallon of gas for these wanna-b-some-bodys to burn up the earths riches and not to care about it.
Thats why i ride my bike.
someday if were all lucky,we all will,

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   PRETTY SAD posted by Gralyn on 2/4/2004 at 2:30:33 AM
Yes, I was just ranting about the big deal that is being made over something so trivial (the show on Sunday). So much comes down to how things are covered by the media.
But cyclists do get little respect - and it seems most motorist think they shouldn't be on the road. I've been yelled at many times for being on the road.

But I've noticed here lately.....I've been giving it much thought - and have tried to classify, or categorize somewhat - the folks I encounter on the highway. I tried to somehow classify the vehicles in terms of how close they get to me when they pass me. I thought it was just folks in big SUV's, big expensive trucks (the big ones that are not used as work trucks, or business purposes) - but it seems to me that it is the more wealthy drivers. A small Mercedes will get really close, while a Ford Taurus will give me lots of room. Well, I need to gather more data! Maybe I will make a study of it.

MISC:   Prices are up posted by: JONathan on 2/3/2004 at 1:50:40 AM
Here's what I've seen lately. Nishiki "Riviera" mixte, $45; Univega "Safari" mixte, 45$;
Santa Cruz MTB with steel rims and cheapo components, $85; Maruishi with 105 componets, $199;
Murray 3-speed, Shimano "333", afraid to ask price and Peugeot "US Express" with one-piece crank, afraid to ask price.
The rest were complete junkers. Needless to say, my last bastion of cheap VLW's has gone high-dollar on me.
There will be the rummage sales, but I'm not too excited about what might turn up. Now, someone will espouse the discovery of a "Super Course"
at a landfill! Maybe they're too bike savvy around here. S.F. Bay Area is pretty bike friendly and there are lots of riders, compared to many regions...except Toronto.
I saw bikes all over the place, except downtown...that's a unique experience for even a seasoned city rider.
So, what's the word on bikes out there? I'm sure glad I have a bunch to work on, because I don't see getting any more at these prices.

   RE:MISC:   Prices are up posted by poguemahone on 2/3/2004 at 2:52:06 AM
Huh. Today: Panasonic-made Schwinn World Sport, 15$
Motobecane Nomade 2, 25$

Last week: Motobecane Nomade, 5$

Last month: Early 70's Peugeot UO8, bent stay but Simplex retrofriction shifers and some other odd nice upgrades: 15$
Another early 70s UO8, 25$
Fuji s10s (actually 12 speeds) 15$
Taiwan made Bianchi 25$

Last few months:
Trek 710 35$ (partial campy)
Trek 620 35$
80's Raleigh Super Course 10$
Trek 100, 150$ (!)
Loads more I can't remember. If anything, prices around here are down, as a lot of folks dump bikes on the thrifts come christmas. The goodwill auctions of late have had some impressive piles of bikes, although I haven't found much in them except one Motobecane and an old Dunelt three speed, which I passed on. This town being what it is (i.e. Neither San Fran or Toronto), the thrifts all price bikes according to how much dirt is on them and no one at the goodwill auctions seems to want to pay more than 10$. I bought the Fuji, the Raleigh, the two cheaper Treks, and the Peugeot with the bent stays.

   RE:MISC:   Prices are up posted by Rob on 2/3/2004 at 3:29:39 AM
Well, this seems to be a good spot for my latest bit of info...

I've been waiting for a couple of weeks now for the "Founder's Day" 50% off sale at the "Valu Village" thrift store chain (in Vancouver...I don't know if the sale was everywhere, but it probably was) Anyway, I had "scoped out" four bikes, as follows:

1) "Cicli Welker" -- early '70s, low-end Italian bike, steel cottered cranks, Universal cps with good levers and hoods, yellow...but actually a really ugly looking bike, IMHO...Original price $CDN24.99

2) Norco Avanti (Norcos are essentially a variety of Nishiki)-- late 70s, I guess, but with a Shimano 105 front replacement derailleur...the der. is in good shape, as is the rest of the bike; well looked after...bars are good with a nice tape job; hoods ok but a little tired....Original price...$CDN59.99

3) Peugeot UO-8 -- all original or close to original...can't quite remember...$CDN34.99

4) Raleigh MTB early...86?...looks like it was hardly used...Original price $CDN49.99

Well...I was a bit surprised. Here's what happened:

1) "Cicli Welker" -- this bike, which I first saw last November was gone!!! I thought it would be a "slam dunk"...I last saw it about two weeks ago...

2) Norco Avanti -- it was there, I got it at 1/2 price...not a great deal, but it's in good shape, well looked after...an OK deal...

3) Peugeot UO-8 -- gone...disappered ove the last two weeks...oh well, I've got a bucnch of them...

4) Raleigh MTB -- long gone, it was gone before the sale started, I wasn't surpised...I was well worth the $CDN50.00...

So I got one of the four, and a good one...one I actually thought would be "scooped" before I could get there, in the mid afternoon...

I guess the good news is that I'm not the only one looking for these things...there actually is a market for this stuff...:)

   RE:RE:MISC:   Prices are up posted by Gralyn on 2/3/2004 at 4:17:56 AM
After a very long dry spell - I lucked upon a few:

3 Peugeot's at about $15 each
Motobecane Le Velo - $12
Ross Gran Tour - $7
Nishiki Mixte - $5

I spotted a Schwinn Traveler currently at $25. Like in the good old days - I'm going to stop by tomorrow and see what kind of discount will be on it. A while back - I would have bought that one at $25 in a heartbeat - but since there has been more of an abundance (not really - but more than usual) I don't really need it anyway....but if I can get it less than that - I might just do that.

   RE:MISC:   Prices are up posted by Dick in FL on 2/3/2004 at 6:34:55 AM
Recent acquisitions/Central Florida thrifts and curbside:

Shogun 300 with new tires; my current daily rider $1.95

1980 Schwinn Suburban, Positron II shifting, mint, new tires $2.95 (It was just dirty confirming Poguemahone's theory.)

Raleigh-Canadian-built Free Spirit 5-speed derailleur, 26" wheels, lugged frame, chrome fenders, Raleigh clone, new tires, excellent $3.95(another dirty one), Recently displaced as my grocery-getter.

2 lady's Spalding Blades, showroom condition, one with drop bars at $6, one with upright bars and rustless fenders at $10.

Near mint man's 1971 Schwinn Continental with excellent original tires, original bar tape, toe clips, QR's, etc $10

Raleigh Robin Hood excellent with new tires $15

1980 Lady's Schwinn Collegiate with coaster brake 3-speed rear hub, mint including original tires and strange lace-on plastic skirt guard. Came with child's seat. $3.95

Two early 70's Raleigh Sprite 10-speeds. The one with the 25 inch frame is "showroom mint" including original Raleigh-marked tires; cost $4.95 (See "Poguemahone" reference above!). The one with the 23 inch frame is identical (dark red metalic) but has new aftermarket tires and the wrong pedals. $5.95 (Go figure!)

Raleigh Gran Prix with elegant Soubitez generator-light kit. $5.95

Unused Huffy Savannah with high quality rigid rack and folding pannier basket. (I *wanted* that Wald pannier!) $4.95

His and her CyclePro Beach cruisers that, with trivial effort, I was able to get to nearly new condition. Free at the curb including nice heavy duty rack.

Virtually unused Roadmaster Mt. Fury MTB free at the curb.

Something I waited too long on was a Reynolds 531 marked frame (no manufacturer badge) with a mixture of Dur-Ace and Shimano 600 components. It had already been re-conditioned; why did I think it would survive yet another markdown to below $15?

Some of these are of no interest to this forum, I know. But the demand for the beach cruisers down here has created a glut of everything else.

   RE:MISC:   Prices are up posted by Mark C. on 2/3/2004 at 6:07:08 PM
There haven't been many worthy VLW's of late at the local Philly suburb thrift shops. Mostly ladies step thrus of Murray, Huffy, Free Spirit ilk. Suprisingly these sell after a few weeks even during the colder weather here. Most are in the $7 to $15 range. But once in a while like every three weeks a better badged mens bike pops up. There has meen a Miyata and Raliegh in the last month and a bike that looked like a UO-8 but had some french name I never heard before. Even a newer Trek that had had some serious frame damage from a nsty head on bump. Hope the rider was OK. What really has me baffled is I see these bikes through the window after the store is closed or I decide to think on it for a day and by the time I get back, usually after work the next day they are gone. I can't even get inside to see what model they are or the price. Somebody local is into these bikes like I have become and they are eating my lunch. So prices are still pretty low and the selection is a little on the meager side here. But they are out there!

   RE:RE:MISC:   Prices are up posted by Gralyn on 2/3/2004 at 6:07:12 PM
Oh, that $25 Schwinn Traveler....remarkably, still there. But today, with the discount....I could have got it including tax - right at $20. I just left it. Maybe it will still be there tomorrow....and maybe at a 50% discount.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:Traveler posted by JONathan on 2/3/2004 at 8:49:45 PM
I would definitely spring for the "Trav". Then, a lot is individual prefence, but even with that, as a bike goes, those "Travelers" from early '80's are exceptional rides. Collectible? Probably no.
More general notes. Interesting point about how fast the bikes sell. I may have to try a couple times a week. What I see as the same old junkers, may just be what's left after the new arrivals get cleaned out.
Makes sense as a working hypothesis, since there apppears to be steady increases in the junkers up to a point. One day, I'll opo in and see hardly a junker! The build up starts all over. I guess the trick is to make it more frequent and earlier in the day.
Maybe. However, that price difference is very significant, IMHO. Here, they must be making hay on these bikes. What was once a "nuisance" has become a money maker. I used to see rows of bikes..take me half hour to go through the lot. And, they'd stick around for a while, too.
Alls I cab say is there's better pickins than here.
You guys are lucky. Happy huntin'..and ridin'.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:Traveler posted by Gralyn on 2/4/2004 at 1:12:14 PM
If that Traveler had been in really great condition - I would probably have sprung for it. It's not bad - but it's not pristine - far from it. I may stop by today - but I wouldn't be surprised if it is gone. Usually they don't stick around that long.

Another thing - most places where I used to could find VLW's - just don't have them anymore. An occasional old mountain bike - and usually a girls 24" dept. store brand - and a few kids bikes.....that's pretty much it - about 99% of the time. There was somewhat of a surge right after Christmas - but that quickly died down. There really only one place now that I can occasionally find some old lightweights.

   RE:MISC:   Prices are up posted by poguemahone on 2/4/2004 at 3:46:35 PM
Shame on me for dissing the bikes at the goodwill auctions--today I found a 1981 Trek 410 with ishiwata DB tubing and simplex (!) bar end shifters, which make me happy. Paid 35$, which was my limit; someone was actually bidding against me. Gah.

I think some of the pricing also depends on the town you live in. There's precious little bike culture here; a few kids at the local art school riding fixie conversions, a couple of commuters, not much else. Add to that a very, very urban-sprawled kind of development with zero mass transit, and everyone's convinced they have to stay in their car all the time. I see a good number of very pristine bikes in the thrifts-- guess they were bought and rarely ridden.

BTW, most thrifts throw out whatever doesn't sell; that's probably where all the junkers go to.

Going to the thrifts regularly does seem to increase the percentage of deals you find. It helps to be a shiftless sort without a real job, like say, me. I also teach at an art center located right by two of my town's bigger thrifts, so I drop in for five minutes or so before class and check out the bikes-- I find it a relaxing habit.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:Traveler posted by Gralyn on 2/4/2004 at 7:10:16 PM
I checked on that Traveler. It was still only 25% discount off a $25 price. But, on closer examination - it's a Taiwan Traveler. My other Travelers are USA-made. Well, if it had been 50% off - I would probably have gotten it. There was a Schwinn ladies mountain bike - with a bio-pace triple crank....I picked it up for parts - $6

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:Traveler posted by JONathan on 2/4/2004 at 8:37:54 PM
Yes, I know the "Traveler" (sometimes "Traveller"?) are all over the map, and it appears all over the century past, too. One of those recycled names. Mine is Taiwan, but I think it's Merida built, branded for Schwinn who must have given up making their own bikes.
I think I saw a "Traveler" that was a Japanese build, if that's possible. The chromoly steel and craftsmanship make it a good ride. Since I ride this one, the "collectibility" per se, is a moot point. It dusts my Le Tour II ('77 Panasonic with "Xtra-lite" steel gas pipes).
There were "Travelers" showing up pccasionally, so I just figured I could land one anytime. They have disappeared, just like FUJI's. They get snapped up...the word is out there. Too bad for me. My brother gave me the "trav" as he couldn't deal with the large frame and it was a bit spirited
for his tastes. After he crashed it, I think it fell into disfavor, but I saw it as a perfect commuter as I fixed the rear dropout tab problem and tested it. Funny how it shakes down. He doesn't know much about bikes, but every bike he gives me is a winner to me. Luck or hidden talent?
Hope you get the "Trav"...give it a ride.


AGE / VALUE:   Can You Identify These? posted by: john on 2/1/2004 at 1:21:31 PM
I'm often astounded by the knowledge of the people who use this site, so here goes. Was recently cleaning out a suit-case full of old LW parts and came across at set of center pull calipers marked, "RACER steel" on the front. Back says, "Made in France Brevete S.G.D.G." They're quite heavy and look like them may have come off an inexpensive boom bike. Should I reconsign them to the junk box or save them for a future project? Thanks. john

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Can You Identify These? posted by T-Mar on 2/2/2004 at 2:28:26 AM
Back in the early 1970's there was a brand of brakes called RACER. These brakes were inexpensive copies of the ubiquitous MAFAC Racer brakeset.

The caliper arms had the same basic shape as the MAFAC's Racer and they had a very similar brake pad adjustment, whereby the vertical contact angle could be varied. Even the pads themselves were virtual clones of MAFAC pads. The copying went so far as to mimic the styling of the MAFAC logo, with tails extending from the base of the "A" that underlined the "R" and "CER".

To the casual observer, these units appeared to be re-styled MAFAC units, but there were some major differences. Most notably, the yoke cable used anchor barrels at both ends, like Weinmann and Universal. Consequently, unlike MAFAC, you could not vary the mechanical advantage by altering the length of the yoke cable. Also, a single spring that bridged between the two pivots served both caliper arms. The best feature of the brake was the yoke itself. There was a hexagonal recess for the head of the cable anchor bolt. As a result you only needed one wrench to cinch the cable and the cable stayed perfectly vertical during the cinching process.

To the casual observer these brakes appeared to be a slightly restyled version of the MAFAC Racer, but they did not provide the same level of performance. They were generally found on entry models of lesser brands, though occasionally you would see them on big brand bicycles, like the Raleigh Record, when the original spec brakes were not available.

Due to the number of similarities to the MAFAC models, I often wondered if MAFAC was trying to establish a bargain basement brakeset, but did not want to tarnish the MAFAC name by associating it with the brakeset ( sort of a Honda and Acura relationship, but in reverse). However, the yoke design was so innovative and superior that I could not see MAFAC relegating it to a bottom feeder.

If these are what you have, the performance is adequate at best, and that is in terms of early 1970's performance! However, they are fairly rare and novel in some aspects. Personally, I'd keep them as a conservation piece. However, if you are just going to junk them, I'd be willing to pay the postage to have them sent to me.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Can You Identify These? posted by Chris on 2/2/2004 at 11:33:45 PM
Copies! I thought these were the bottombasement offerings by the original Mafac company.

I was wrong! Thanks T- mar.

Yes, I have seen these in my travels too.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Can You Identify These? posted by john on 2/4/2004 at 2:58:54 AM
Thanks for the reply and confirmation of my evaluation. The calipers are similar your description except for the yoke cable which is clinched at both ends, and the word Racer isn't underlined. They may be imitations of the imatations! By the way, I should have said consign them to the parts box as I rarely ever throw away any bike part. Did you know upturned handle bars mounted against a wall make a great garden hose hanger? Thanks. john