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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by: marc on 3/12/2004 at 1:34:08 AM
Alright guys, these may seem like some basic questions and they are but I still needs answers. I picked up this wheel set on ebay fiamme rims with campy record hubs. I got them yesterday. The rear wheel had a suntour freewheel on it. It's a small set up, 14,15,16,17,18. What would a freewheel this size be good for? Pros and cons?
Second question, one wheel came with a tire, they're sew up wheels btw, the tire is a 27 inch. I've called to a few shops looking for 27 inch sew up tires and no one seems to have them. One guy even laughed at me and said he never even heard of such a thing. My question is, does anyone have a source for sew up tires this size? Also, can I just stretch out a 700C to fit on these wheels?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by Gralyn on 3/12/2004 at 3:00:40 AM
From the gearing you have listed.....certainly not touring! IT's probably only good for racing. So far as 27" sew-ups...I think they did make them....but they were probably not as common. I don't know from experience - I'm only recalling an earlier post concerning 27" sew-ups. Check the archives - it seems there was a very informative post on this topic.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by JONathan on 3/12/2004 at 4:16:32 AM
I wouldn't go stretching the tires to fit. Just my opinion. Stretching could weaken the tire. Have you actually measured the rim diameter to know for sure that you have the 630mm, instead of 622mm (700c)? My guess is that you might be able to locate NOS, but sewups have a shelf-life that would be a concern. It has to do with the curing, I think. Of course, if you're NOT going to ride the bike...I suppose you could try anything that works.
I have a set of Fiamme tubular rim wheels on a Roold (Fr.) that I can check to see if they're 27's. One tire still hold air, although I won't risk riding it. If there is a maker on the tire, I'll post.
Good luck, JONathan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by T-Mar on 3/12/2004 at 4:38:07 PM
Many tubulars had 27" stamped on them, but are in fact 700c. Basicially, if you see or hear 27", 28" or 700C associated with a tubular, they are all the same size. The next smallest tubular size is 26"/650 which is noticeably smaller. These are fairly rare, but have made a come-back on some high end triathlon bicycles.

The actual outer diameter of a tubular rim is about 634 mm, which is the same as a 700C clincher rim and why tubulars are generally referred to as 700C. You can interchange tubular and 700C clincher wheelsets without having to adjust brake pad height. However, this terminology is relatively modern, with 700C only gaining prominence since the early 1980s.

Prior to the 1980s, most North Americans were familiar primarily with 27" tires on lightweights. Since this was the closest available size to tubulars, and tubulars were associated exclusively with lightweights, the 27" name was applied, somewhat erroneously, to tubulars. In addition, the 634mm outside rim diameter may fool some people into thinking it's a 27", which has a 630mm bead seat diameter. Since these to measurements are quite close, they may erroneously equate outer diameter with the bead diameter.

28" is also sometimes associated with tubulars because the old, European, 28" x 1-5/8" x 1-3/8" tires also had a 634 mm outer rim diameter and a 622 mm bead seat diameter. These tires were the true clincher equivalents of tubulars, prior to establishment of 700C.

Due to the concave seating surface of the rim, tubular tires will always require some stretching to fit on the rim. However, don't let this fool you into thinking that the fit is tight enough to eliminate gluing. Glue is mandatory, lest you weant to roll the tire off the rim in your first turn!

The freewheel is definitely race gearing. More specifically, it's for a very flat course, probably a criterium. The roadie terminology for it is a "flat block", because the cogs jump by single tooth increments. In cases where the variation in terrain are small, the smaller cog increments allow you to maintain a cadence (pedal rpm) closer to your optimum. You're more likely to have the correct gear regrdless of the speed of the peloton or the terrain. The small jumps also allow to accelerate more quickly, without bogging down. The set-up is also slightly lighter and shifts quicker than larger range freewheels, which are also prioroties in races. The only drawback to flat blocks is when the terrain goes uphill sufficiently to cause you to drop below your minimum, sustainable, climbing cadence. Racers would often have different freewheels or cogs, which they would change depending on the course terrain, while a non-racer typically made do with the stock freewheel (usually 14-28T), which would have to be sufficient wide to cover a reasonably wide variety of terrain. When I used to race, my flat course, criterium gearing was 46/50T chainrings with a 14-18T flat block.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by marc on 3/12/2004 at 5:14:22 PM
thank you to all of you guys for all of the great info. I'm fairly new to all of this so any info is extremely valuable to me. I did measure the outside diameter of the wheels and they do measure around 634mm. I have some other tubular wheels that I might actually use now. I'm going to pick sew up tires and try them out. I'm really not planning on commuting with the bianchi so I might keep the freewheel. I think it makes this 60's beauty a little more interesting, a little more racier.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by Rob on 3/12/2004 at 6:25:46 PM
Excellent explanation, Tom...at some point I had figured out the tire sizing issues, but it is hard to keep straight, let alone try to articulate...the key is to remember tire and rim sizes are nominal...most of what folks who post here will encounter are the nominal 27 1/8|1/4 and the nominal 700, with the occasional exceptions...the tubulars will almost always be the nominal 700 size, even if they are advertised as 27". The assumption that the 27" tubular is different has cropped up before and likely will again...it is, indeed, hard to keep it all straight...

And, thanks for the explanation on the freewheels...I've been focussing much more on cadence issues than I used to, and I can certainly see improvements...getting a good freewheel/chainwheel configuration is an ongoing process...and I'm doing all of this in the context of the early '80s bike world...friction DT shifters, sidepull or cp brakes...but I do use SPD MTB pedals on my commute and long rides...I'm starting to think about getting a set of Looks or Look-compatible Shimanos...

Lots of fun...:)

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by JONathan on 3/18/2004 at 3:43:57 AM
Yes, indeed, thanks for the post, Tom. I have one bike, a '70's Roold which has Mavic wheels using tubulars; Vittoria "formula 1"'s. The tires are banged up too much for a jumbo-package like me pressing down on them. I can buy new ones at the LBS for $30 American. Not bad pricing, IMHO. They are good tires as the ones on the bike have been on there for years and they hold some air...not at max! The bike shops that cater to racing seem friendly enough chaps about how to set up the sew-ups. Good luck. Very interesting technology from the past is always worth a shot.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Bicycle 101 posted by kevin womac on 3/24/2004 at 4:36:35 AM
sorry if this is an innappropriate response, it ought to be a new post, but i'm new to this. Has anyone heard of a 700x35 or larger sew-up. I just acquired an old elgin (i know-not lightweight) from the 1920's. It takes tubulars, but the rims are really wide, and it's a cruiser, it needs something wide. I've been searching the web for days looking for something to fit my needs. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by John Clarke on 3/30/2004 at 9:20:12 PM
I would be greatfull for any information (history)on my Campione Corsa Sportivo

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bicycle 101 posted by mike on 4/12/2004 at 1:56:58 AM
i have a bicycle from the 1950s that my dad bought new for his brother but can't find out what it really is the serial #s i have dont match any that i find they are 102680 its not in real good shape from alot of surface rust, so how do i go about finding out what brand it is
thanks mike

AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by: Gralyn on 3/10/2004 at 5:46:37 PM
While making my usual rounds today - I spotted a Peugeot Record Du Monde. Actually, it's the first Record Du Monde I have seen in person.It's blue, with the 103 frame. Probably 24" frame. Peugeot alloy crankset, Mafac racer center pull brakes, Mafac drilled levers with hoods, Atax stem, Phillippe (I think) bars. The finish looked pretty decent. The front wheel is Rigida alloy, high flange. The rear is Rigida Chrome. Now, I didn't even notice this until I was loading it up......the front forks look bent inward....that is, the front tire is pretty close to the frame. The forks have the appearance that they are bent back. Now, that would help explain why the front wheel is different. I suspect it was crashed. But, considering what I paid for it.....I think the bent forks is a non-issue.

Now, I have seen several pics of bikes with the forks like this. They look like they are bent back. I remember a while back, there was one on e-bay....and folks were posting about it here. But.....were any forks ever made that look like this? Or is this a pretty sure bet it was crashed? There doesn't appear to be any buckling or wrinkling anywhere on the frame....and there's none on the forks - surprisingly....and the forks seem to be bent back uniformly. Just wondering......were any forks ever made that are supposed to be like this?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by JONathan on 3/10/2004 at 6:30:36 PM
Gralyn, it's possible the steerer is bent near the fork crown. You'll be able to tell when you drop the forks and get a looksee.
It's hard to conceive any advantage to a cocked wheel, with stability compromised..not to mention sfaety issues. But, what do I know?
I am constantly surprised at what I find out about VLW's. None of my Peugeots have the fork geometry you describe. The changed out wheel is a clue to it's histroy. My Mercier project had a bent steerer tube that produced a slight skew in the forks. I would check the seat-stays and chainstays for any deformity, not to mention the bearings overloading.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by marc on 3/10/2004 at 10:09:27 PM
I had a record du monde with a similar set up to yours and the forks were definately not cocked back. It was a pretty decent bike but I sold it as it was a bit too big for me. It had fenders and wiring for built in lights, it had the rear light and not the front. It was definately a touring model.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by Derek Coghill on 3/10/2004 at 11:49:46 PM
The axle is usually ahead of a straight line downwards from the axis of the steering head. If you continue this line to the ground and measure back to a point directly below the axle, you have measured the "trail"; continue the vertical line upwards and measure the angle between it and the line through the steering head and you have the "rake". The relationship between these two determines a large part of the handling qualities of the bike; with a road bike you want high-speed stability but don't need to turn so fast whereas an MTB is the otherway around in that it's not so fast but you need to be able to change direction quickly. Steepening the head angle generally quickens the steering and that's the effect that bent-back forks tend to have in that the bike feels twitchy at speed. It raises the front of the bike too. There are countless engineering books about this kind of stuff! Try Foale/Willoughby "Motorcycle Chassis Design", very illuminating.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by Gralyn on 3/11/2004 at 3:51:19 AM
OK.....I got the Record Du Monde home - and began stripping it of all the components. The forks were definitely bent. Upon closer examination - the down-tube is buckled right at the end of the head tube lug. The top tube has a smaller ripple at the lug also. The bike certainly had a pretty bad crash. Oh well, so much for the frame......but - for $7 - I got a rigida alloy front wheel, QR axles front and rear, Mafac brake set, Simplex ders and shifters, bottom bracket, etc. .....so I still came out way ahead of the game. Too bad about the frame - the finish was really good.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by JONathan on 3/11/2004 at 3:51:38 AM
Thanks Derek. That is very interesting. If I understand it, the head-tube centerline and the fork blades slope are congruent down to the bend which determines the "trail", as you described. The "rake" is the upper fork blades and head-tube angle. So, if this is right, then the slightly cranked forks would be introducing a third parameter. There would be the "rake", the "trail" and the "crank"(??).
It would seem that the loading on the head set bearings would be asymmetrical, thus leading to premature failure of the races and bearings. Just a couple c's.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by Rob on 3/11/2004 at 5:56:45 PM
Interesting...usually you can trust your gut instincts on this kind of stuff...after having looked at scads of different bikes (as you obviously have, Gralyn), you're instincts are probably almost always going to be right. I've had several bikes with that 'look' to the forks...and I think they all had 'rippled' frame tubes, too...one even had a bent steel seat post...all the damage consistent with an initial head-on...yet the front wheel was not damaged at all (that part I couldn't quite figure out)... As I read through the thread my thoughts were "classic head-on crash"...curb? car/truck bumper...or (shudder)the back of a bus...that did happen to a friend of mine years ago...he still has the bike...but, of course, with replacement forks...some kind of chrome Columbus item from the early '80s... And, Thanks, Derek, I've used that approach to try to figure out if I have a bent fork on a Grand Prix, but it can be difficult...some of these bends can be pretty subtle...at some point I'll let a good bike shop have a look at it...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by Derek Coghill on 3/12/2004 at 12:31:01 AM
Rob, possibly because a circle is relatively strong compared with a couple of bits of straight-ish steel.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by JONathan on 3/12/2004 at 2:31:59 AM
Ooops, I meant the "rake", not "trail", above. Glad you got found the problem. I'm thinking; "big pothole". If the wheel fits inside the pothole, it becomes very strong, like trying to crush an egg squeezing evenly around it, the wheel whill transmit the impulse up to the forks and to the frame. A brake locking up can bend the forks and the frame would have to deal with that lever action with the lower headset bearing being the fulcrum. The BB would be another fulcrum.I think the down-tube/head-tube junction and the seat-tube/BB junction are weak points. Just a couple c's. I rode a Raleigh "record" with a slight buckle in the down-tube at the head-tube lug, but it never busted off. Nice thing about steel.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by Derek Coghill on 3/13/2004 at 12:18:25 AM
To assess accident damage, you need to know what the numbers/angles were for the standard bike before comparing it with your own. As with motorbikes, they're all different and for different reasons. It might be that a bike with very slightly bent forks suits your riding style better than a standard (un-bent) one, depends on your height, weight, riding style. You can't alter the rake without affecting the trail and vice versa (given that the forks remain a constant length but you can change the bend and hence the stem height above the road). You can go down this road until you're blue in the face, but the simple fact is that a bent bike handles differently from an unbent one!

Pothole scenario; I don't think the BB would be damaged as the fork top is the weakest point. If it (the BB) were damaged I wouldn't like to be the rider.

Steel frames are great; I'm about to braze a new tube into a damaged Motobécane frame, more to see if I can than anything else.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by Gralyn on 3/15/2004 at 1:01:02 PM
......to add more for my $7 price tag: Stronglight Crankset, Simplex down-tube shifters, a nice set of clip-in pedals, Shimano 6-speed cassette. From date codes on some of the components - it appears to be 1979.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot Record Du Monde posted by Paul on 5/29/2005 at 10:54:55 PM
I just happened upon this page during a search for info, and I happen to have a Peugot Record Du Monde.
I was looking to see if it is worth anything. It seems to be all original.

MISC:   keeping track posted by: JONathan on 3/10/2004 at 5:04:53 PM
A previous post touched on the ignoble practice of parting out intact VLW's. I admit it's hard to do, personally speaking.
I have come up with a plan that works for me. I take a complete photo "workup" using my new toy...digital camera...which is a quick operation with great benefits. The data are stored for later use in rebuilding any given ride.
Text notes help describe details of interest. Reading a book that has pictures of bikes, I realized that for a serious student of the subject, a more detailed image was needed. The recent "Biscayne" project was an ideal candidate.
It's not a great marvel of a bike, but it's intact; yet I needed a few parts. Before removing anything, I took some macro pics so that I can restore the bike to it's original state if need be, later using the pics. What's great is the "macro" pics of how the cabling and shifters are set up. A quick reference to the pic nad the restoration is immediately resolved.
Saves a lot of trial and error effort.
Good ridin',

   RE:MISC:   keeping track posted by Rob on 3/11/2004 at 6:10:44 PM
I, too, hate to part out bikes...to me it kind of feels like you're destroying a 'spirit'...kind of a 'zen' thing I guess...I pretty well confine the parting out to bikes with damaged frames...and sometimes (though reluctantly), to really tall frames....

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Fuji Finest Paint? posted by: marc on 3/10/2004 at 2:52:44 PM
well yesterday I started stripping the rest of the paint off of the Fuji Finest I picked up last week. Unfortunately there is no chrome under the rust. I was hoping for a fully chromed frame but no luck. However, the metal has cleaned up rather well, it looks beautiful, silky smooth. I was consider using chrome paint on the frame but now I'm thinking about just leaving the frame bare. Kind of utilitarian but I think it would be interesting. My question is, is there a laquer or clear coat I can put on bare metal to protect it? Does anyone advise against what I would like to do? Also, does anyone know where I can get some fuji decals? Luckily the metal headbadge is in great shape but I would like to find some decals for the rest of the frame, they don't even really have to be period correct although that would be preferred. I'm going to take the absolute for a spin today and I'll keep you posted on how it rides. Index shifting is intriguing. This is my first road bike with it, although I've used it with mountain bikes.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Fuji Finest Paint? posted by Ken on 3/10/2004 at 8:47:06 PM
Marc, I do bike rebuilding projects with kids, and we tried clear-lacquering a frame with numerous coats, since it looked so cool after it was stripped. But it didn't take more than a year to start oxidizing visibly. Not like bare metal would, but visible. My belief is that only a real primer will do that job. However, no rattle-can job is ever going to look like baked enamel, either, so if you're not going for the pro finish you might as well enjoy yourself.

AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by: John S on 3/9/2004 at 4:33:00 AM
Whoo boy!!! Was given a Motobecane Jubile this weekend. Sittin' in a shed for many years, dust, some rust, but hardly riden in it's original glory!

Think it's late 70's, maybe early 80's. SunTour Cyclone shifting, with that cool medium-cage rear derailleur. Regida 27" narrow alloy rims. Vitus tubing. Bars wrapped with faux leather, Weinmann brakes with black/gold sticker instead of the usual red. I've seen this paint scheme on other Grand Jubile's, red and black, in this case black with red head tube and red stripes on seat tube, gold striping.

What do you think, age. I think this is fairly high on the Moto foodchain.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by JONathan on 3/9/2004 at 5:42:57 AM
It's up there. As far as I know, the "Super Champion" was notch above. I need some backup on this, but the order progresses soemthing like this:
Nobly-->Nomade-->Mirage-->Super Mirage-->Gran Tour-->Jubilee-->Super Champion. Motos have great paint work and they ride "light", with good comfort.
They are also tough bikes. I think they're in the same heap with the Peugeots, but for some reason, I think the same level of Moto is a tad better in paint and they ride lighter...maybe that;s because the Vitus tubing IS lighter.
Fix it up and see for yourself. That one is worth the work, IMHO. Great find!
BTW, I have the "Super Mirage"; "Gran Tour" mixte; "Nobly" (which is a tank, IMHO, but I'm not the one riding it) and the "Gran Tour" mentioned. The forks took a hit, which was easy to fix; they are robust units.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by marc on 3/9/2004 at 6:59:24 AM
I do agree with you jonathon that the moto's do seem to ride lighter. Even my mirage with its 1020 tubing feels closer to a 4130 frame. I have made some observations regarding motobecane models with the same name but having different types of tubing. For example there was a gran tour on ebay recently that was 1020 but I've seen the same model with vitus tubes. Jonathon, I believe you said that your super mirage is vitus, well I recently so one with the same 1020 sticker as my mirage. Are my observations correct? If so did motobecane make models of the same name with different tube types throughout its history or was this a practice that occured towards the end?

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by JONathan on 3/9/2004 at 9:45:13 AM
Marc, the "Super Mirage" has 20-40 "high resiliency tubing", which is just a slightly more refined grade of regular pipe. The mixte (GT) has Vitus's mid-level tubing and the GT reg. frame has the 20-40 stuff. At least this is what mine have. The "mate" to the GT had vitus tube set, but the frame was too small, so I got the larger 2-40 frame. I can't tell that much difference in 20-30 (RRA) vs. 20-40 (GT). The GT is a bit more lively, maybe better shock absorption, too. The "Nobly" is the 10-20 16ga. gas pipe, which is OK, just kind of dull handling for my tastes. The paint job is very cool...which is reason for existing, IMHO. I'd place it somewhere near to a Raleigh "sports" in it's ride.
The "Jubilee" has Reynolds tubes and Nervar lugs, making it a step above anything in my stable. I sure like the way mine handle the heat of a massive rider who likes to pound hard. The only LW racer I trust is the Team FUJI ('86). Though near 21#'s, it has some kind of stiff tubing (quad-butted) that doesn't flex a lot when I pound on it. The Moto's are pretty light riding, without actually being very light in weight, mid 20's. It must have been tough to compete with the Nishiki, Miyata, FUJI complex of bikes, but Motos' are pretty righteous rides. I think their TOL "Le Champion" must be some bike to ride.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by T-Mar on 3/9/2004 at 8:00:02 PM
Based on the somewhat limited description, your Grand Jubile sounds to be circa 1976, however you can better establish the year by using the date codes on the SunTour components.

The Motobecane line-up was pretty much unchanged during the mid 1970's and this model was the centre of the lightweight line-up, with the Nomade, Mirage and Grand Touring below it, and the Grand Record, Le Champion and Team Champion above it. They also marketed the Nobly (upright bars), Rivera (folding bicycle) and Tandem at this time. The Super Champion and Super Mirage was introduced later.

Marc, it's not uncommon for manufacturer's to play around with a model. Component specs can change from year to year, and though it's less likely, spec'd tubesets have been know to change too. In the case of the Motobecane Grand Touring, it started out in the ealy 1970's with 1020 tubing and by the late 1970's was Vitus 172. Sorry, I don't know the exact year of the switch, without digging deeper. In general, during the 1970's, the low end Motos used 1020, or 2040 in later versions (no it's not twice as good, though that was probably the misconception the marketing guys were hoping for), the mid range models used Vitus and the top end models used Reynolds. Things started getting mixed up a lot in the very late 1970's and very early 1980's when Vitus 888 plain gauge tubesets started appearing in some entry level models and better Columbus and Vitus sets in the top end models.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by Don on 3/10/2004 at 1:17:07 AM
My Grand Jubile is supposed to be a 79 model & it has the ornate Shimano 600 shifters & derailleurs. The Vitus stickers are not in very good shape & the sticker on the frame has no # just Vitus "Speciale Double Butted" the forks are Vitus 172 & the paint scheme is candy red with gold outlining on nervex lugs & black head tube/black band on the seat tube. My Grand Touring has Vitus 888 frame & forks & the Weinmann center pull brakes have a set of metal connectors in place of the usual cable yoke. Don

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by John S on 3/10/2004 at 4:31:05 AM
This is my second Grand Jubile. My first was probably 73 or 74, had Reynolds 531, Campagnolo dropouts, Huret Jubilee shifters and Stronglight 49D crankset. Frame also had Nervex fancy lugs. Also red/black, but in this case Red with Black head tube and accents with gold lettering and pinstriping. Have seen this era with two different fork crowns, one a nice looking flat crown with sharp edges, the other with rounded edges, not as nice looking.

This new (new to me anyway) does have a Vitus tubing sticker (I'll have to look at it, it's not with me today) that did say butted. Lugs are plain, italian style. Not sure what the drops are as I didn't look too closely, but I suspect they are SunTour or Shimano. I'll check the SunTour date codes. Pillar is SR, bar/stem is a french with recessed allen quill bolt. Can't remember cranks, but cotterless alloy, either Nervar or Sugino.

Funny thing. Every Grand Jubile I've seen is red/black and all have been quite tall bikes. This one is 62cm, I'm afraid too tall for me.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by schwinnderella on 3/11/2004 at 1:43:55 AM
I also have a Grand Jubile. Mine is red and black with black as the secondary color,Suntour Cyclone changers and levers,531,Pivo bars and stem,Weinmann ceterpulls and levers,Rigida alloy rims,probably a 23"frame.Nice bike.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by schwinnderella on 3/11/2004 at 1:44:32 AM
I also have a Grand Jubile. Mine is red and black with black as the secondary color,Suntour Cyclone changers and levers,531,Pivo bars and stem,Weinmann ceterpulls and levers,Rigida alloy rims,probably a 23"frame.Nice bike.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by JONathan on 3/11/2004 at 4:04:45 AM
My Super Mirage has black (primary) red (secondary) and gold trim around the lugs. It is by far the best paint job of my bikes, except for the Team FUJI, but it's not a mid-level bike.
The Motos in my collection all have superior qaulity paint work. I think it was typical of their products. It does not seem to flake or chip off if you look funny at it. The "Nobly" is a heap (if you asked me), but the paint it fantastic...tha was there benthic bike, too.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by Don (ollo_ollo) on 3/11/2004 at 5:47:05 AM
I have also seen many "tall" Grand Jubile models, mine must be the exception as it measures about 20 1/4". Just a tad small for me but the long stem makes it work. I still remember the first candy red Grand Jubile I saw back in 1973 or so. To me its still one of the prettiest bikes out there & I consider myself very fortunate to have found one in fair condition after all these years. Don

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Grand Jubile! posted by eric on 3/22/2004 at 6:37:51 AM
i have a grand jubile that is actually on the small end, it sort of fits me anyway. i think it's about a 52-53cm. i have a tall technomic stem(found this way) so it's a nice commuter. mine is however red and silver, 531 tubing, nervex lugs with gold pinstriping. the headbadge on it i think dates it to early 70's.

AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by: sam on 3/8/2004 at 10:55:14 PM
Are 700s close enough in size to 27"s that side/center pull brakes will still work?The reason I ask is I'm rebuilding an early 50s Claud Butler and need 27" alum rims drilled 32/40.(which they don't make anymore!) the only 40 hole I find is in 700s.Any advise on this?---sam

     27s or 700s posted by John E on 3/9/2004 at 12:05:29 AM
If the slots are long enough to permit you to slide the brake shoes down by 4mm,* you can accommodate 700C rims. You will lose a small amount of braking leverage.

* 700C rim outer diameter = 622mm;
27" rim outer diameter = 630mm;
difference in radius = (630-622)/2 = 4mm

   RE:  27s or 700s posted by JONathan on 3/9/2004 at 4:17:59 AM
Look around for a set of Weinmann "Vainqueur" 999-750's. Try them first, to be sure, before getting them. You may have to buy a thrift store bike that has either those or the Dia-Compe equivalents...the Dia-Compes look identical, which must have been a license agreement for clones.
Some mention is made of "drop-bolts" being suitable for adapting for the 700's. I would try the Vainqueurs, first.
Good luck, JONathan
BTW, thanks, John E. for the quantitative description of the differences in the wheels.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by Mark C. on 3/9/2004 at 5:48:40 PM
I have been wondering myself if this swap (700mm on a 27" frame)might work. The brakes seem to be the major concern but most of the brakes I have seen look to have enough adjustment at the pads. The thing I have been wanting to do is get a 700mm wheel to check what is the frame clearance like. Some tire profiles may come to close to the cross braces and brake mounts. Please let us know if you have any success with the swap if you go ahead with it! Being able to put 700mm rims and tires on a 27 would open up a lot of possibilties for better performing and more readily obtainable parts.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by T-Mar on 3/9/2004 at 8:20:15 PM
Marc, in general a switch to 700C will give you more frame clearance. The slightly smaller diameter will ride further back in the stays, where they are spread more. Also, 700c rims and tires are generally narrower. Unless you use a 700C tire that is rated wider than the original 27" tire, you will not lose clearance, but should gain a small amount.

I believe I read recently that Velocity USA will make custom rim sizes and drillings using their standard rim extrusions. This may be the perfect solution for your Claud Butler. Try e-mailing them at velocity@velocityusa.com .

Also, try some tandem specialty shops. They should have alloy 27" rims in 32H and 40H drillings.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by sam on 3/9/2004 at 11:08:57 PM
T-Mar , yes velocity rims were just the ones I'm lookin at.Their DYAD 700s come drilled in 32/40,and it appears to be a shallow "V" style.May not pass off as 1950s but getting both rims to match and in Alum I think would still look very pleasing.I was also worred about the clearance--good to hear that should not be a problem.
JOHathan,I tried a set of Dia-Compe center pulls I had with a 27" rim in the frame--looked to have lots of play on the rear brake--so if the front doesn't work I can find another rear to use in the front.I plan on using them till something more 50s comes a long.
This has been a big help in the planning stage for this bike----sam

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by JONathan on 3/10/2004 at 3:00:29 AM
Great to hear about the rims. As for '50's brakes, would those be side-pulls? I recall seeing cp's beginning in the '60's..although with VLW's, it seems there were "new" things that were already around in previous decades, just not mainstream items.
What brake type/model would a CB use? The Vainqueur 999-750's are the rear (longer calipers). I have found some older sp Weimanns work pretty decent if they are set up just right...trued up wheels and good quality pads can make them OK. Good luck.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by John S on 3/10/2004 at 4:38:28 AM
Sam, for your Claud, you may look for Universal 61 brakes if you can find them, somewhat common and more likely to have been used on a Claud, though I beleive the 61 indicates the first year of manufacture. Otherwise, GB brakes.

If you are patient and have access to a used shop or swap meets, I've seen rims available, you may have to take an entire wheel to get a rim, but wheels are generally cheap items at swaps.

I too have a Claud Butler, possibly from early 60's or late 50's. I want to restore it as correctly as possible. I think wheels will be my biggest challenge.

Good luck.

   that's the brakes posted by John E on 3/10/2004 at 3:21:18 PM
I believe centerpull brakes were introduced in the very late 1950s. My 1959 (possibly late 1958) Capo has the original first-generation Weinmann Vainqueur 999s; earlier bikes from various manufacturers generally had sidepulls.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by Ken on 3/10/2004 at 9:59:49 PM
sam, do you know what brakes were on it originally? I just took a look at the GB page on classic rendezvous; their brakes were sidepulls until their Coureur 66 centerpulls were introduced in '61.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by marc on 3/10/2004 at 10:22:09 PM
a while ago I posted about some vintage fiamme sew up wheels I bought with campy record hubs. I originally thought they were 27inch but the seller told me they were 700C. Well I got them today and they are in better shape than I thought. One of them had a tire on it and low and behold its marked 27 inch. Good thing is I don't have to worry about the brakes on my bianchi. Does anyone know of a source for 27 inch sew up tires? Anyone care to recommend a brand or model? Also, can I stretch 700C tires to fit?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by Oscar on 3/12/2004 at 5:23:46 AM
Sam, let me know if you want a pair of Universal Centerpulls.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   27s or 700s posted by Derek Coghill on 3/13/2004 at 12:26:59 AM
My Claud Butler (don't know age, 4-speed Cyclo and a fixie on the other side of the hub) has an "HB Coureur" on the rear and a clunky GB caliper (big "Hiduminium" casting) on the front; both sidepulls.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Campy dropouts, new derailleur posted by: Brent on 3/8/2004 at 8:39:06 PM
Will modern derailleurs fit on the old Campy dropouts from the 70's? I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm thinking about buying an nice old frame with Campy dropouts, but I would want to put a modern derailleur on it for every day riding, maybe a Suntour Superbe.

    Old Campy dropouts, new derailleur posted by John E on 3/9/2004 at 12:02:52 AM
I see no problem whatsoever. Although my 1959 Capo "Modell Campagnolo" came with a Campag. Gran Sport, I have successfully hung a SunTour V-Luxe, a SunTour Cyclone, and a mid-1980s Campag. Chorus on its dropout, which was made by Capo expressly for the Gran Sport. If the thread pitches differ, simply use an old mounting bolt with the new derailleur.

   RE: Old Campy dropouts, new derailleur posted by Derek Coghill on 3/9/2004 at 9:05:55 AM
Adaptor plates are available; these are held in by the axle as on most older models and have a hole for mounting bolt-on rear derailleurs. Don't know a price (minimal I suspect) or a source.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Old Campy dropouts, new derailleur posted by T-Mar on 3/9/2004 at 8:35:44 PM
As John E states, you should have no problem. The threads are slightly different (10mm x 26TPI vs. 10mm x 1.0mm), but it will work. The threads will deform slightly and it will seem a bit tight. I've been using a 1990's vintage Dura Ace derailleur in an old Campagnolo dropout for over 10 years. The only conceivable problem would be if you are constantly changing between Campagnolo and other derailleurs.

AGE / VALUE:   sumitomo posted by: Ned on 3/8/2004 at 2:48:08 PM
I have found an intresting frame:Sumitomo max titarion made of cp titanium.it is supposed to be very light and resiliant.any info on it lineage?age of production also unknown.supposed to be offered as a panasonic titanium model at one time?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   LOOKING FOR A 1960-63 SCHWINN CONTINENTAL posted by: Bungalow Kev on 3/7/2004 at 8:17:30 PM
Im looking seriously hard for a 1960-63 vintage Schwinn Continental (big 23 inch frame) in decent original or restored condition. Any leads are greatly appreciated!
Bungalow Kev

   LOOKING FOR A 1960-63 SCHWINN CONTINENTAL posted by John E on 3/9/2004 at 12:09:37 AM
They used to appear on eBay periodically, but I have not seen any lately. Keep watching, armed with the knowledge that you will pay a hefty premium for a 1960 in passable condition or a 1961-63 in good or better condition. Pristine 1960 Contis are probably over the $1K mark by now. If I wanted one badly, particularly as a rider, I would consider refinishing a "dirty dog" instead of paying top dollar for a sharp secimen. However, there is, of course, nothing like a well-preserved original finish.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   LOOKING FOR A 1960-63 SCHWINN CONTINENTAL posted by Ted Cohen on 4/2/2004 at 7:35:23 AM
I have what you are looking for. Call me for pictures and info.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   LOOKING FOR A 1960-63 SCHWINN CONTINENTAL posted by terry on 6/2/2005 at 8:02:24 PM
I have a 61 com plete(wrong brake levers and grips)It's dirty, I can clean or sell as-is. Also mens 72 continental original(except tires and reflectors) nice shape $175.
And mens suburban nice shape one owner replaced front wheel,great rider dark green $100.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   what's been up in the past few days. posted by: marc on 3/7/2004 at 6:29:40 AM
Well I got the super course back from the welder and it looks great. There wasn't much paint damage, very little, and once it's touched up with paint I don't think the work will be hardly noticeable. Let's just hope it holds up.

This week has been good for finding bikes as well. Wednesday I found a Schwinn 12 speed World Sport, 4130 chrome moly frame, Weinmann Alloy Wheels, alloy bars and stem, union generator set, suntour components, and even a cannondale water bottle cage. Not bad for twenty bucks.

The following bikes were all purchased for 5.00 each.

What I believe to be either a Fuji Finest or America. It looks like the orignal color was blue, previous started to strip the paint off either to leave it all chrome or for a repaint. It has suntour drop outs, a fuji branded suntour VX rear deraileur. Some very nice dia compe side pull brakes that look like campy clones. Nitto bars and Ukai alloy wheels. These are obviously not original but somebody put on a nice set of shimano 600 "araby" downtube shifters. I think I'll finish stripping the paint and depending on how it looks either keep that way or repaint it.

Found another fuji. Model name is Absolute. It's a chrome moly frame. The paint is near perfect so are the deacls. It's silve in color. It has suntour acushift x-2000 deraileurs and shifters which can be used for either indexed or friction shifting. It's in great shape, got everything but the wheels. Doesn't need much work except a tune up and a cleaning. Can't wait to take it for a ride.

Here is the mystery bike. It's white with chromed rear stays and chromed fork. It also has chromed head tube lugs and fork crown. these lugs are fairly ornate. It came with simplex prestige deraileurs and downtube shifters. The brakes are centerpull I don't recgonize the brand. Cottered cranks and steel rims. It looks to be from the 70's, it's got those foil decals. The bike is marked "Grandeur" When I first saw it I thought it was a french bike but then I found half of a sticker that says "gentina" I'm assuming this is a made in argentina sticker. Anyone have any info on these bikes? i can't find any info.

I also picked up a beacon bike, but upon looking at it again its crap. Thanks for reading and please share your opions on the bikes I bought and please let me know if you have any info on Grandeur.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   what's been up in the past few days. posted by JONathan on 3/7/2004 at 7:41:52 PM
Nice going. Those FUJI's are especially a great find at the price paid out. Done good, IMHO.
The jointing of the tubes is tight as it gets. They'll last forever (almost). I still haven't seen any here at thrifts or GS's..the Fuji bikes, that is to say.
Maybe they're more abundant in the middle country. I see them out on the rooads in sunny Ca.
The "finest" I think was a "ground breaker" bike in the bikeboom market. Is the frame ALL chromed under the paint? That's impressive. Hope they fit, cause you got to ride those.
Good fix it appears on the SC. Just keep back on the throttle for a while till it all seems good. That's the beauty of steel frames...you can ALWAYS fix 'em.
Good ridin',

   steel frame repair posted by John E on 3/8/2004 at 2:51:43 PM
It sounds as though you made the correct decision regarding the Super Course. I responded to your original post as I did because I had made the opposite decision (i.e., scrap) when I cracked a chainstay on a Peugeot UO-8, which is one notch lower in quality. Your experience has convinced me to plan to attempt a repair if anything ever cracks on the Capo frame.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   what's been up in the past few days. posted by Rob on 3/8/2004 at 7:34:21 PM
Glad to hear the Super Course is back on it's feet...keep us posted as to how it goes...I haven't heard of any bikes from Argentina, but I'm sure they made them...everyone else seems to have done so...a week ago I saw a old, cottered crank, heavy...but nicely preserve, bike called a "Flying Pigeon"...the head badge actually has a picture of a pigeon...I had heard of these bike before, but I had never seen one...made in China...somehow the brand name doesn't seem to be a marketing plus to someone like myself with a typical North American of pigeons...:)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   what's been up in the past few days. posted by Rob on 3/8/2004 at 7:36:16 PM
Oops...I meant to say a "...a typical North American view of pigeons..."

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: what's been up in the past few days. posted by jack on 3/10/2004 at 2:44:07 AM

Please tell us the details of the repair. Was it arc-welded, brazed, etc? Were the ends of the crack drilled? How much did the repair cost?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: what's been up in the past few days. posted by marc on 3/10/2004 at 3:25:48 AM
Well it's a little funny. I actually don't know a ton about the repair. The welder who did it was an elderly eastern european with a thick accent and undoubtedly alot of welding experience. He wasn't very personable or socialable but he did say that he had experience with bicycles. The crack I beleive was caused by an unattended scratch that left metal exposed and as it rusted obviously was weakend. Luckily the crack was only on one side of the stay. From what I can tell he used a grinder to remove all of the weakend rusted metal and then welded another peice of steel into the gap as a joint of sorts. This was then ground smooth. Again he managed not to damage much of the paint at all. It's not perfect but it seems to be a strong joint and it saved the 'ol girl from the heap. The best part was, he only charged me 20.00 and it only took him two days. I think I lucked out, but I guess time will only tell.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: what's been up in the past few days. posted by jack on 3/10/2004 at 7:37:51 AM
Hmmm, now let's see...2 days work for 20 bucks...elderly gentleman from eastern europe...spoke with thick accent...not very sociable...did he have a long white beard and walk with a limp? You know who I'm thinking of?...no not Osama, but close! I'll bet if you went back there he'd be gone and nobody would know who you were talking about. Either that or they'd say your description fits ol' Mr. Schnitzel, but he died over 10 years ago! Still, he probably did a fine job.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: what's been up in the past few days. posted by marc on 3/10/2004 at 4:12:51 PM
Well he did do a find job whether he was a ghost or not, just as long as he re-appears the next time I need him. I'm glad I've inspired some of you to try and repair these great old steel frames but I'm not dumb. If I find another crack in the super course she's finding her way to a permanent spot on my wall.

AGE / VALUE:   Biscayne "Trident" mixte posted by: JONathan on 3/6/2004 at 5:46:11 PM
Not to change up the European venue too much, I came onto a curious species that has me baffled (so what's new?). The Biscayne was a name used for bikes built by Merida and I think Giant and maybe others. I can't get much info on the name, but I have seen a lot of these on the road; like Univegas, they are long-lived in commute environments. I used a Biscayne "Blazer" MTB for commute work. A "best buy" type of rig, IMHO.
This mixte frame is exceptional in robustness. The lugs are contoured. The upper HT lug has extensions for the twin down-tubes; the chain-stays are very large diameter with a built-on bracket for kickstand (like a Schwinn); there is a solid traingular bracket connecting and reinforcing the twin tubes and seat-tube with brake anchor-bolt platform and hole. The seat-stays have a bridge for brake mounting in the normal set up.
The stem is Sturmey-Archer with steel tourist bars and Schwinn grips. Brake levers are Dia-Compe flat levers (roadster type) activating the Dia-Compe (Vainqueur clones) cp's. The cranks are SR (no. 37) 170mm alloy with chromed steel rat-traps "HTI" (serviceable type) with reflectors. The wheels and rear derailer are off for use on a Univega "super Sport"...I think Araya and SunTour. The shifters are SunTour stem "ratchet" type alloy with plastic grips. These are the big levers that look cool and are easy on the hands.
The front derailer is SunTour. The twin tubes have brazed-on shifter-cable stops and a brazed-on ferrule for the rear-brake cable along with a bridge midway to the seat-tube for the rear brake-cable stop/adjuster fitting. The forks are half-chrome with a small decal band on the upper edge. The forged steel crown is sloped and tapered to a point on the outer edges with a cutout section. The front and rear dropouts are forged, with no integral hanger. This latter feature makes for any derailer possible; a smart move, IMHO.
The rear dropout has twin threaded eyelets for both rack and fender attachments. The front has single eyelets. The unpretentious stickers are; "Biscayne" on the dt; "trident" on either twin tube and "Biscayne" sticker for headbadge and "made in Taiwan by Merida" on seat-tube. All are square or rectangular block decals...nothing flashy.
Can you find a better commute bike? I was all set to finish off removing the components for other projects, when I realized that this one needs to be put back to running state. It could be my quintessential, generic commut-bike example in my collection. The paint is two-tone, redish gold sparke and faded gold where the sun has been beating on it. No rust! I could probably determine which direction and lattitude of location by the paint fade pattern. Oh, price was $5. The tag had $45 hanging down off the bars, but there was a sale; "all bikes $5" and I just happened to go there on that day. Wasn't even looking. That's the secret, I'm sure.
Was biscayne an import company that took bids from various makers or was it the makers using the name to sell bikes? I think of Nishiki selling bikes as "American Eagle" and after the Japanese bikes became recognized for high quality, switched to Nishiki, I am guessing. OK, gents, now, back to Peugeots!
Happy rides!

AGE / VALUE:   Putting a price on old lightweights posted by: Gralyn on 3/6/2004 at 5:44:35 PM
My collection of old lightweights has grown considerably over the past 3 years. I may be up to 50 - 60 bikes now....not really sure. Now, I have sold quite a few of them all along. I need to sell some more of them. Selling them gives me more $ to put back into the hobby. My ideal goal - was to make the hobby support itself by selling some bikes along the way.

It's tough to sell these, mostly bike boom, old lightweights. I have tried local sale papers, e-bay, yard sales....and now my wife is working on an on-line bike store for me.

The frustration of e-bay is that sometimes you get a decent price....but other times - you lose big-time! If you set a reserve price too high - nobody will bid. The local papers has some success....but it too has it's frustrations: folks make an appointment to come see your bike - then don't show up, or they get lost. You make every effort to tell them everything possibly about the bike - but when they see it - it's nothing at all what they expected. Yard sales.....the rule there is to only put out a bike that you would be very happy to get $30 for - because nobody will pay more than that for a bike at a yard sale - regardless of the bike. I've checked a couple of lbs's - but all the one's around are way too small and really cramped for space anyway - and the one's that aren't too bad for space don't want to consign any bikes.

Sometimes I think I may be asking too much for a bike - but then other times....maybe I am asking too little. For example, I recently sold a Peugeot....most likely mid-80's. After I re-built it - it looked brand new! I sold it for $70. Then after that - I saw the same bike in an lbs - and they wanted $150 for it. Then I saw a couple of them go for over $100 on e-bay.....and mine was in nicer condition!

There's maybe not enough interest in these old lightweights yet. I say yet - because I think the interest in them will grow. One positive is that the new lightweights are $$$$$$ very expensive comparatively. If you think of the options - someone could buy a new one for say, $1000 - or they could get a very nice old lightweight - for under $100. That would have some appeal.

One thing that might help - is for me to be out and about more on my bikes - it could strike up some interest...and maybe I would be able to sell a bike or two.

Yes, I'm just at that point - where I am going to have to get rid of some bikes - and I want to get the most out of them I possibly can

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Putting a price on old lightweights posted by JONathan on 3/6/2004 at 9:51:03 PM
Yes, Gralyn, you are right, IMHO. That's why I have devised ways to "compress" the data (bikes) and keep only a few for projects. Although I haven't tried to sell any, except one failed attempt during a neighbor's GS, I can see that they are hardly recognized for rider value. Most of mine are of the "rider" type, not collectible. The very reason that allowed me to pursue the hobby is that they are had for a song. Take the GS failure. It was a Bridegstone "carmel" with very little wear. When I figured just the cost of replacement for the "consumables" (tires; tubes; brake cables; brake pads and shifter cables...the the break-even price is above the magic sell number at GS's..which is $25. The LBS's that sell the vintage LW's ask about $150; some less, some more. The bike shops really want to sell the higher profit bikes, which may be the play-down attitude explanation. The misconception is that the bikes are "old" and are not dependable. That myth has to change. Then, you have the social pressures to have TDF quaility road racers as opposed to the comfortable, sensible and dependable reasonably performing VLW. I think a lot stems form what we grew up with as rides. I, for one "beleiver", know how great these bikes can be for any riding except competition. I realize that I can't "talk shop" at social gatherings (or even at home during dinner) without blank stares or in one case, the "Oh, you really mean 'junk' bikes". So I quietly pursue my projects in relative isolation to what the outside world thinks. Like anything that has any intrinsic value, time lapsed increases their value, but I just enjoy the projects' results. What's cool is when I give a bike away and get immensely positive feedback of how cool the bike runs. That's what it's all about, IMHO, "education" is the key. I think of the SunTour article and of the Japanese bikes, in general, about the low prices being mistaken for low-quality and it all comes home; the VLW's ain't got respect. As you said..."yet". One recent note; I have noticed a big increase in VLW's on the roads, lately. That's either an anomaly or a trend. Either way it's a good sign.
Good luck,

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Putting a price on old lightweights posted by jack on 3/7/2004 at 5:01:54 AM
Interesting topic. For one thing, I believe the vintage community's sense of value is skewed. We who appreciate these bikes are relatively few in number, most people can't tell the difference. So if you were to try and sell a $1000 bike for $200, most people would think you are asking too much. You will only get close to what you think its worth from someone like you, and he is also looking for bargains. Another point is that some collectors ask top price because a similar one sold for that. Even if the bikes are identical, there are many other variables involved. Maybe you'll get more, but more than likely less. Also, some people complain when they sell a $500 bike for $200 when they bought it six months ago for $50.

Yes, we have probably all made a killing at one time or other. But if trading in bikes is your hobby, you should just be happy to break even in the end.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Putting a price on old lightweights posted by Gralyn on 3/7/2004 at 3:12:24 PM
Yes....just to break even. I suppose that's just my personal goal - to have this hobby without it really costing me $. But, I do keep track of the $ I put into it...and really, for any hobby - I'm not spending much at all on a per week basis. Overall....a very, very inexpensive hobby.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Putting a price on old lightweights posted by Darryl on 3/8/2004 at 2:39:27 PM
I have sold about 10-12 road and mountain bikes for about $100 - $150. Most were mid range bikes which sold new in the 70's or 80's for $250 - $600. None were vintage Italian or Campy equipped. I regrease all bearings, new cables and housing if necessary, replace tubes and tires if needed, new tape or grips and detail the bike. I'm now rebuilding a Italian Rossin and a Guerciotti, both Campy Super Record. I picked these up at a LBS for $550 total. Much nicer to work on and the return should be better.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Putting a price on old lightweights posted by Rob on 3/8/2004 at 7:10:52 PM
Good points, guys...I think you have to be a bit of an iconoclast to be happy pursuing an interest in vintage lightweights...except maybe for the pristine top-end collectibles. Anything else seems to be viewed as junk by most of the rest of the world...

I view these bikes as a pleasant, practical hobby,...I don't try to make money at it...I've mentioned this all before, but what got me back to the lightweights was a fortuitous ride a couple of years ago on a mid-70s Raleigh Super Course...I acquired the bike a few weeks later. I had gotten used to MTB's over the years, and I could not believe how this old Super Course rode...light, responsive, fast, even elegant...an absolute pleasure to ride...nothing like a heavy, clunky, slow MTB...MTB's have their place, even in my world...for rough, offroad stuff...)

But, of course, for manufacturers, and most bike shops, moving product is what they have to do...and millions of $$ are poured into advertising. As with lots of other things, this is how most of our fellow citizens, despite what they may say, are persuaded to make their purchases...

A few weeks back, I mentioned to an acquaintance that I was buying an old mid-70s Peugeot road bike (UE-8) in excellent shape for about $CDN 50...being a fairly astute person, I thought he would have something interesting to say...not at all...he thought it was a waste of money..."that old junk...things have move on since the 1970s...blah, blah..." The power of advertising...it even gets to the bright guys... I gave up trying to convince him that, while, yes, there have been improvements over the years and the new road bikes are better, you still get at least 80% of that in the old bikes for any use other than competitive racing... And, of course, if I raced competitively I would get a modern road bike...but that isn't how I'm using those bikes, and it's not how probably 95% of potential riders would be using them...

I enjoy tho old lightweights, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters to me...:)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Putting a price on old lightweights posted by poguemahone on 3/6/2004 at 9:00:33 PM
This will probably have me exiled for heresey, but you get more $$$ on ebay if you part the bikes out. Recent case I watched: two trek 410/412s, one the full bike, the other just the frame. Same size, within a year of each other, the full bike appeared to me to be in nicer shape. Full bike sold for @ 60$, frame only for @ 90$. I bought a beautiful late 60's PX10, nicest I've ever seen, for 435$, and watched a beat to you know what frame from the same period, same size, top 200$ (I'm sure the components of the PX would clear far more than 250$).

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Putting a price on old lightweights posted by Jack on 3/10/2004 at 3:26:25 AM
I think it is sacrilege to part-out a vintage bike, although admittedly profitable. When seeing the bike head-badges on ebay, I imagine those classic and vintage frames left headless in a field to deteriorate or destined for a Chinese blast furnace.

AGE / VALUE:   Miyata model numbering system??? posted by: John S on 3/6/2004 at 5:58:11 AM
Picked up a Miyata 914 frameset. For free, sitting out ona a curb. Falcon headset, Shimano bottom bracket, Shimano 105 right crank arm only with BioPace rings. "Splined Triple Butted Tubing". Fairly light, probably from 87+-. What components would the 914 have had?

Also can anyone describe their model numbering system? I've seen Seven Ten, Two Ten, etc. Many nice bikes, some with low numbers, so I haven't figured it out?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata model numbering system??? posted by Steven on 3/7/2004 at 4:50:24 AM
Miyata in the early 80's did indeed use the numbers to distinguish between price points among their road bikes: 100 series was lowest (all-arounder), then 200 series (all-arounder), then 300 series (sporty), then 600 series (touring), then 700 series (sporty), then 900 series (racing), then 1000 (touring). The top end racing models did not follow the number system. The last two digits of the model generally designated the number of 'speeds'. Your 914 would therefore originally have been a 14 'speed'. I'm sorry that I can't remember what type of original equipment it had.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata model numbering system??? posted by gary m on 3/7/2004 at 5:23:19 AM
that is one he11 of a nice bike. i sold one last year for $150 and that was a steal. light as heck, cant remember the components, high end shimano i think. nice frame.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata model numbering system??? posted by Rob on 3/8/2004 at 6:07:37 PM
Thanks for the info, Steven...and nice find, John S. About a year ago I picked up a 912 curbside...beautiful bike, mid-'80s, all Shimano 600...but it's way too small for me...must be just about the smallest frame they built. A couple of weeks ago, I finally put some air in the tires and took it for a spin...beautiful feel, light and responsive...but being too small for me, I couldn't get a comfortable cadence going...too hard on the knees... Maybe a small person wil come along with something interesting to trade...:)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata model numbering system??? posted by kevin on 4/2/2004 at 3:38:17 PM
I bought a Miyata 512 from a friend a few years ago for 50 bucks it has only been used a few times. It is in beautiful shape. Can anyone tell me how old it is and how much it may be worth?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   End of Dry Spell posted by: Don (ollo_ollo) on 3/6/2004 at 1:52:50 AM
Came home early from work & stopped by the Goodwill. Its been quite a while since they had anything but junk bikes priced at $40 but today I spotted a Black Fuji "Grand SE" 12 speed. Gold outlining on the lugs, Nitto drop bar, SunTour Vx derailleur, UKAI alloy rims, DiaComp drilled brake levers etc. It had fenders & a rack. Flat tires & about 20 years of garage dust on it but at $10.95 I grabbed it. Should clean up nicely & be a good backup rain bike.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   End of Dry Spell posted by JONathan on 3/6/2004 at 4:06:59 AM
Nice find! If it's a; "put me in, coach" bike, it'll be pushing for the starting spot. They are superb handling. That one appears setup for some serious riding. Enjoy and excellent work digging that one out.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   End of Dry Spell posted by Gralyn on 3/6/2004 at 4:37:23 AM
I had found a similar one previously: Black, with gold, etc. just like yours....Chro-mo frame. It was really nice and cleaned up very well. I passed it on to some friends who were moving to FL and needed a bike to ride down there. So, I only got to ride mine just a couple of times.....but it performed very well.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PX(K)-10? posted by: Brian L. on 3/4/2004 at 5:29:24 PM
John E. and others: whilst strolling back from the gym at lunch, taking my usual alley shortcut, I came across what appeared to be a PX/K-10, complete and abandoned. Wheels were toast and I didn't pay much attention, but they were hf hubs. Forged Simplex do, with the non-drive side featuring and interesting integrated axle guide or tange. No tubing decals present but the residue of what appeared to be a Vitus decal on the seat tube. Leather, no-name saddle with rivets. Plain lugs, head stamped '73', maybe Bocama or Prugnat? 1/2-chrome forks. Classic black/white color scheme with Peugeot in block letters with gold background. Rainbow champion stripes w/ "Recorde du Monde" banner. Serial #785168 riveted to bb. Cottered steel cranks, AVA stem and unbranded bars, Mafac brakes and Simplex Prestige. Can't make this match up with the PX-10 database. Can anyone tell me what this is?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PX(K)-10? posted by T-Mar on 3/5/2004 at 4:05:21 AM
Everything points to a PA-10E, circa 1974-1976. The aluminum S/N plate indicates 1970's. The plainer lugs indicate 1974, or later. The colour scheme and forged, Simplex dropouts indicate a tubular tired racing model. In 1974 the only racing model with steel, cottered cranks was the PA-10E. The components also match, as does chroming limited to the forks and lack of tubing decal. This model had upgraded to cotterless cranks by at least 1977, maybe earlier, as I don't have 1975 or 1976 catalog info. It definitely matches for 1974, but could be as late as 1975 or 1976.

     PA-10? posted by John E on 3/5/2004 at 3:27:45 PM
I concur with T-Mar, although the PA-10 had plain steel tubing, not Vitus. I also observe that there were a few other obscure racing variants, such as the PY-10.

Also, the PX-10, PR-10, and PA-10 were available only in classic French racing white in the early 1970s, with expanded colour options arriving by mid-decade. With its tubular tyres and knee-killing stock PX-10 close-ratio (52-45/14-15-17-19-21) gearing, the PA-10 sold very poorly in the U.S., with most buyers in its price range opting for the Raleigh Super Course, the Schwinn Super Sport, or the Nishiki International/Kokusai. (Most new PA-10s, PR-10s, and PX-10s left the Bikecology/Supergo shop with customer-requested 14-26 freewheels.)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   PX(K)-10? posted by poguemahone on 3/5/2004 at 6:28:51 PM
Slight correction: early 70's PXs were available in blue as well; I have a 72 as well as a 73, both in blue. Not sure about the PA and PK coloring.

Later PFs were made of vitus 191, with a half chromed front fork, but had a stronglight cotterless crank. Your cottered crank makes me think PA, though.