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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by: Rob on 4/26/2004 at 5:31:53 PM
I've currently got a bit of a problem with a stuck adjustable cup....The spindle is a bit loose and I figure this bike is long overdue for re-greasing, but I haven't been able to budge the adjustable cup (maybe someone used Loctite 262 or whatever on it???) ...I've tried vice grips...no luck...once before I had a tough one...I clamped it into a vise and was able to gradually get it off...

I haven't tried that yet on this one. I sprayed it with WD-40 and will try again tonight....does anyone have any other ideas? I guess the worse case scenario would be using a hacksaw...but that seems like a lot of work...:)

   RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by Derek Coghill on 4/26/2004 at 6:50:47 PM
Heat is good. Can you get the fixed cup out? If so, heat inside the frame with a hot-air gun or blow torch (inside, so as not to damage the paint!), the idea being to warm the frame up more than the cup so that it expands a bit. There are better penetrating oils around than WD40, too; Wurth do one called "rost-off" which I've found very effective, and it doesn't seem to promote rust in the way that WD40 does.

   RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by Gralyn on 4/26/2004 at 8:12:43 PM
WD-40 doesn't penetrate. Use liquid wrench, or some other penetrant.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by JONathan on 4/26/2004 at 8:17:55 PM
Rob, I have tried a bolt with washers and a nut. I read Sheldon Brown's article. A high-point 5/8" bolt with about 6 washers (3 to a side) and a matching nut. I thighten down the bolt real good. Then I place the whole bolt head in my vise. This means lifting whole bike! I crank dwon on the vise. Then spin the frame in the correct direction. Of course you could use a breaker bar instead of the vise. If it slips a bit, you can tighten it down some more. I haven't had to use lock washers, just flat, smooth steel washers. Never had to muscle the Adjustable cup, but if they glued the thing...
Depending on the temp. rating of the glue, heat would be useful, although I try to keep heat away from anything with paint on it. The Raleigh fixed cups are the toughest. I actually started to move the whole workbench while torquing on a "record" fixed cup. I just tighten it a bit more, grabbed the frame and hollered; "Hard to starb'rd, maity".
Good luck, e-mail if you want a detailed description of the particulars of my method. That sure is a slick. Why the vise? Well, my wrist was hurting using the breaker. You need a big vise, though. Try those country flea markets...amazing what kind of heavy-duty stuff show up. Another reason for the vise approach is to take some pressure off the frame forks or stays.

   RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by T-Mar on 4/27/2004 at 1:53:02 AM
A proper penetrating oil as suggested by Derek & Gralyn in conjunction with JONathan's suggestion of the Sheldon BB cup tool should work nicely if Rob was able to remove the fixed cup. However, my take on the original post was that the spindle and both cups are still in place.

If so, the better approach might be to try removing the fixed cup. This is backwards to normal, but it may suprise you and not be seized like the adjustable cup. If you can't get the fixed cup out due to lack of proper tools, take it to your LBS or use this as an excuse to add to your tool collection.

Heat may work, but should be used judiciously, to prevent damage to the finish. Cutting it out would be my last resort. I'd take to the LBS first.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by JONathan on 4/27/2004 at 2:24:34 AM
Good point, Tom. I assumed the fixed cup was off. One thing you could do, if you have a replacement adjustable cup, is to grind or file flats that are parallel. Then, place the whole thing in the vise, or use a monkey wrench (WEAR GOGGLES). The monkey wrench has very hardened steel jaws and a little slip can send a tiny chip flying off into orbit.How would you employ a hacksaw? That steel is pretty hard stuff. Liquid Wrench is my choice for froze up parts. WD-40 is a great lubricant and "Water Dispersant" (hence the name; "WD") the 40th formula. Table saw castiron surfaces are rust magnets and WD-40 works the best for me. Same with the old Henry Disston handsaws that rust real fast if not coated with something. I would try to get the fixed cup off, as the guy probably did not take it off, so there won't be expoxy holding it. Just a guess, here. On really froze stuff, I tighten a tad to break the corrosion. Works for me.
Good luck, JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by T-Mar on 4/27/2004 at 3:08:21 PM
JONathan, I like your idea of creating some flats on the adjustable cup. That's a much better last resort than cutting out the cup, which is sure to damage the shell's threads.

   RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by Rob on 4/27/2004 at 4:41:06 PM
Thanks, guys...I was able to get it off...took the wheels off and hoisted it onto the vise. I had about 1/3" lip (more or less)to grasp, and after a few false starts, I got the bike properly clamped in ...and using about as much effort as for a really stuck freewheel, it gave in ...the culprit?? ...good ol' rust... Using the frame for leverage, you can get quite a mechanical advantage...

The BB is a sorry sight...caked, dirty grease, pitted spindle, pitted and badly scored adjustable cup...I haven't checked the fixed cup yet (which I hope will come out OK...I'll certainly be using some of the tips I picked up here if I have a problem with it), but I'll probably just replace the works...

The vise, one of the handiest of tools when you're in a fix!!! The other thing I'd like to get is a good arbor press ...one of my buddies has a 12-t press, and back in the days when my interests were in rebuilding cars, that press saved the day on a number of occasions...

   RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by Rob on 4/27/2004 at 6:42:05 PM
...actually my buddy's 12-t press is, what I think is called, a hydraulic shop press...similar to this:


I see I could get a 3-t arbor press for about $US100...(plus shipping I guess)....does anyone want to comment on the size that would be good for working on bikes? $100 doesn't sound like too much...also I guess there are issues with getting a design that can handle a wide range of sizes and shapes, even if you don't need a lot of pressing power...

   RE:RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by JONathan on 4/27/2004 at 9:52:37 PM
A 12-T press? Shiver me timbers, that's a lot of force. I can't think of a use for one in my simple jobs, but I am interested in building a screw (as opposed to hydraulic) press for placement of headset races. The machinist's vise (bigger is better) is the most essential shop tool. I finally got one that works, too. Unfortunately, I can't move it as a unit. The jaws weigh 40 pounds and the base and body weigh 75 pounds. It towers above all else on my outdoor workbench under the tree. That's where I do my best work. I use one small vise (USA, circa 1930) for removing cotter pins. Using a 14mm socket as relief for the pin to slide. I think if I grind a hole in one jaw, that will eliminate fumbling with the socket while holding the vise and turning the screw. Ah, but the challenge of VLW's drives me on.

All this fixin' we been doing and talkin' has me ready to get in a few rides. The evenings have been spectacular. Enjoy the smooth sailin'.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by JONathan on 4/27/2004 at 10:00:40 PM
Thanks, Tom. Hacksaws are really my last resort. Tool of ignorance that they are, they still have a place, I guess. But, I hate the noise they make. The screech, screech, screech. I know. Use cutting oil.
Good rides!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Stuck Adjustable Cup posted by JONathan on 4/27/2004 at 10:17:52 PM
FTR, I speak only in reference to myself about hacksaws. I have a bucket of worn down and broken blades from many efforts. They get the job done. A lot of times, I end up with a handful of scrap metal where there once was at least a partially salvageable part.
Back to the press. It seems that a 3-T would be useful for pressing bearings off the spindles that are so equipped. Roller bearings in a sealed unit would last a long, long time. Working BB's is always tough. Ot would be great to set it up with a "unit" assemby and forget about it.
I wonder if bearings could be pressed onto the cottered axles. Just a thought.

AGE / VALUE:   Curb find posted by: toowheels on 4/26/2004 at 1:49:24 AM
The town just north of me had their spring cleanup this weekend.I grabbed a fiorelli lightweight,and am looking for information on it.It is in fair condition with faded paint ,half chrome fork and stays, ridable after I pumped up the tires.The plastic saddle,headset ,and cottered steel cranks are all marked Fiorelli.It is a 4 speed with a single front chainring and four cogs in the rear.The rear changer is a campy sport and the lever is also campy with what I think they refer to as an open C.Brakes and levers are Universal Model 61.Traditional dropped handlebars.The rims are Fiamme Milano with a flying horse like the mobil gas sign.Not sure of the hubs but Gnutti skewers.The stem is Ambrosio.The serial number is 100273 stamped high on the seat tube.There is a tab with an eyelet on the right chainstay would this have been for a chainguard? If so would it be one of the small aluminum ones I have seen on other French bikes?How old is this bike? I guess early 60's but I am not familiar with this Italian bicyle.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Curb find posted by John E on 4/26/2004 at 2:02:41 PM
I think it's a nice find, but I am a sucker for Italian steel frames! I suspect it is either a European model or a late 1950s bike, since the U.S. market expected dual chainrings and 5 cogs as early as 1960. (Recall that Schwinn differentiated between the debut-year 1960 Varsity and Continental by making the Varsity an 8-speed with flat-bladed forks.) Single chainrings and lightweight chainguards remained commmon in Europe a bit longer, although Schwinn also embraced the concept with its Collegiate, Suburban, and other 5-speed models. The centerpull brakes, if original, imply 1960s or very late 1950s, as every early-to-mid-1950s bike I have seen had sidepulls. (As usual, my reference point here is my 1959 (late 1958?) Capo, which has first-generation Weinmann 999 centerpulls.)

Serial numbers stamped high on the seat tube are another 1950s/very early 1960s touch; Capos of that vintage are stamped there, as well. It is probably much easier to stamp the numbers into the thinner-walled tubing than into the lugs, but stamping the BB shell has to be less traumatic for the frame.

Fiamme used the flying A Fiamme logo into the 1970s; those were always considered high-quality rims. Likewise, Ambrosio bars and stems and Magistroni headsets were very common on ca. 1960 Italian bikes.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Curb find posted by T-Mar on 4/26/2004 at 8:33:31 PM
For the most part, I concur with John's statements. Most of the info points to a '50s club racer. However, the brakes, if original indicate 1961 or later. The Sport derailleur, though introduced in the early '50s, did survive well into the '60s. I owned an entry level, 1960 Legnano with a single chainring and 4 speed freewheel, so that is also possible for the early '60s. The only contradiction for a '60s bicycle is the open C lever. From what I've read, those are all from the '50s.

So, its either a '50s bike with newer brakes, or a '60s bicycle with an old stock lever replacement. The indicators are that it is probably a fairly low end bicycle, but still a nice one. The Sport derailleur and open C lever are definitely collectible, so don't toss them! I have some experience with early '70s Fiorelli and they were all nice finished bicycles. You have done well. Sorry that I can't provide a better answer. Hopefully, someone else can.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Curb find posted by JONathan on 4/27/2004 at 2:33:03 AM
I think they made bikes into the late '80's. They were sold in the US; see the post on the North Shore Bike Shop, Chicago, Ill.
They made fixed gear bikes, which indicates they knew something about frame construction...definitely quality built. Nice find. I saw a pic of an '85 Fiorelli that looked boss.
Too bad I couldn't have found one in a scrap pile. You done way good!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Campy pumpheads for Schrader valves? posted by: MH Nimmons on 4/25/2004 at 9:16:50 PM
I need some help finding a vintage Campy Steel pumphead with the rubber tips to fit a large Silca frame pump - I have a 1972 25" Chrome Paramount P-15. The bike has the 27 x 1 1/4 tires with Schrader tube stems. Did Campy make any pumpheads to fit the larger Schrader valves or do they only fit the smaller Presta valves? Thanks guys, Mo

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Campy pumpheads for Schrader valves? posted by jack on 4/25/2004 at 11:48:34 PM
I'd almost bet the farm to say Campy never made valve heads for schraeder valves. If it were my bike, I'd convert to prestas by using adapters sold at better bike shops. I've done this to several wheels and the adapters work fine.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Campy pumpheads for Schrader valves? posted by T-Mar on 4/26/2004 at 1:27:05 AM
The simplest and cheapest solution is to replace the schraeder tubes with presta, so that you can use the presta head. Your local hardware store should have inexpensive rubber grommets that you can use to downsize the valves holes to fit the presta valve and prevent valve chaffing.

This approach has the advantage of allowing you the option to run schraeder or presta. If you flat without a spare presta tube and your cycling buddy only has schraeder, then you simply pop out the grommet and use his spare tube and pump. Some cyclists, particularly mountain bike riders running presta, will puprposely drill all their valve holes to schraeder size and use the grommet, just so that they have this option in an emergency.

   convert the valves! posted by John E on 4/26/2004 at 2:07:34 PM
T-Mar's advice is spot-on. When putting a Presta valve in a Schraeder hole, I generally put a thin metal washer under the rim strip.

I had not thought about reaming out my Presta holes to take Schraeder in an emergency. Clever thought.

WANTED:   Older "GOOD" shops in St. Louis / Troy area? posted by: Robert on 4/25/2004 at 7:42:33 PM
Are there any older / good bike shops that would be good to visit in the St. Louis , Missouri or Try Ill. area?
Ones that have been arounnd a while and that have older stuff??



VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Olmo identification posted by: Matthew Ulan on 4/25/2004 at 2:38:31 PM
I have recently picked up an old Olmo frame and am going to rebuild it over time. Does anyone know how to identify the year of the frame? It is an Olmo Competition, Red with either 116F or 118F stamped on the top of the seat tube. I have been told it dates from the 1950's. I'm also trying to learn all I can about vintage lightweights in general, are there any books that provide detail on the various manufactures, specs, pictures etc ? Thanks for helping, Matthew Ulan

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Olmo identification posted by Gralyn on 4/25/2004 at 6:38:02 PM
If you're trying to learn about old lightweights - you've come to right place!
Lots of knowledgeable folks here.
Lots of information in the archived messages.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Jubilee Sport posted by: jack on 4/25/2004 at 12:34:08 AM
While working in the LA area last week, bike pickings were pretty slim. I did buy a Motobecane Jubilee Sport which I didn't need but at $25 I couldn't resist. This bike has Columbus Inexternal tubing and construction which is internally lugged. Not as pretty as external lugs and at first glace looks like cheap welded oriental frame. A web search indicates the bike is a mid-80's middle model and components such as Nervar cranks, SunTour shifting, Weinmann sidepulls, Malliard (Helicomatic)hubs and pedals confirm this. An interesting bike and still quite French made during the end of the bike boom.


MISC:   DNB freewheel cassette posted by: JONathan on 4/24/2004 at 11:01:40 PM
A previous discussion focused on the Maillard "helicomatic" freewheel cassette. In an apparent attempt to make spoke replacement easier, it stumbled onto the concept of a cassette hub. An interesting product, but not pure enough for my historical interest in the subject.
However, I stumbled onto a treasure of sorts in a freehub cassette made by the venerable DNB company, probably in the '60's. A long story of how my revelation came about. I picked up a beaten down "Easy Rider 500" for nothing at the tail end of church rummage sale event. It was going in the dumpster, but it had unique componentry; novel from my perspective anyway.
rear derailer was this skinny can opener-like contraption that works quite well. I noticed the 4-speed rear cluster and thought that a bit off. So it sat in the shed and while picking over my wheels to sort for keeping, using or...whatever, I took this DNB onto the workbench. WOW! was my reaction when I discovered that it is a freehub!
I documented the assembly with my digital camera for reference. There is a left-threaded locking ring held in place by a crimped metal plate. That is easily pried away to remove the ring. The cogs slide right off. The cassette core is held in place by the bearing cone. There are (10) 3/16" ball bearings on the outside cone and on the inside cone. The inside cone is actually a double-race. The outside is for 3/16" bearings and supports the inside of the cassette body. The inside race is for the hub (9) 1/4" ball bearings. The left side has (9) 1/4" ball bearings and a spacer; eliminating any dishing of the spokes. The spokes are another interesting subject.
The right side of the hub has a fluted internal ring that ratchets the two pawls on the cassette body. The pawls are much bigger than the usual ones on the freewheels I've dismantled. The whole unit is very precision built and of superior grade steels. I have to conclude that this was'is the earliest freehub that I;ve come across. There are probably others about, but why did not this brilliant piece of engineering make it mainstream before two decades? The cassette is not splined, rather it is a squared cylinder. All in all, a very interesting discovery; and to think I was going to toss the whole setup, less the funky derailer. One never knows about this vintage gear.
There are treasures to be found in even the most neglected and mundane appearing hulks. I think the "Easy Rider" is going to get a restore job. What do you think?
BTW, the spokes have a slotted keyhole shape such that a spoke can be either removed or installed without a lot of bending of the spoke.

   RE:RE:MISC:   DNB freewheel cassette posted by JONathan on 4/25/2004 at 5:31:45 AM
Similar to the Bayless-Wiley. Man, that's going back to the real vinatge lightweight categories. Hercules used the Bayless-Wiley hubs.
This DNB is unique in the bearing arrays. Here's the setup starting left-to-right:
Axle-nut; washer; bearing cone lock nut; 1/2" spacer; bearing cone (1/4"); hub race; hub center tube; race (1'4") with ratchet ring; double-sideed cone (1/4" inner and 3/16" outer); cassette with 3/16" race and two large pawls; four gear cogs; bearing cone (3/16"); cone lock-nut; lock-ring retainer; lock ring (lefthand thread); washer; axle nut.
The cassette body comes off for servicing the pawls. There are coil springs pushing the pawls up. The cogs are very smooth and appear to be spring steel. I bet they wear out several chains before they need replacing. The thickness of the cogs is less than regular FW cogs. I had access to wheels for buffing the cogs. They cleaned up real nice. The wheel complete spins for a long time in the truing stand. The rim is steel with dimples for braking enhancement.
Thre is a "bumper" bar for the derailer that fits on the right side of the axle. I can e-mail a pic of the disassembled unit and full assembled if you want. The spoke protector has a vertical cut-out pattern that reminds me of the spinners with black bars that create a color image when spun. A trick on the eyes.
Good luck with the CB. Those are pure vintage excellence.

   RE:RE:MISC:   DNB freewheel cassette posted by JONathan on 4/25/2004 at 5:46:12 AM
Sam, you used the term; "unit hub". The lockring of the DNB has "DNB-Unit Hub" stensiled into the face, along with a couple of Japanese language symbols.

   RE:MISC:   DNB freewheel cassette posted by Joe on 4/25/2004 at 10:45:17 AM
That DMB stuff may not be as old as you think, I had trash picked one with the same type of setup a few years ago, it was a department store type bike with steel everything and a broken freehub mechanism. I remember seeing these back in the mid 70's, maybe even later. The one I had had an integral ratched built as part of the hub, the freewheel and cluster came off by removing the bearing cone, and was all stamped together and not servicable, and the ratchet teeth were part of the hub shell.

It does seem that most of the rear hubs like these are damaged or stripped. The derailleurs were ok, the rear is pretty much a copy of a Huret Svelto.
The one I had, had a DMB headbadge, and all other components were also branded DMB. I also seem to recall it had an odd crankset and bottom bracket, the right arm and crankaxle were one piece with no right side cotter, and the B.B. cups were pressed in. The crankaxle was held in by a nut much like a Thomson style B.B. The outer chainring also had the letters D - M - B stencil style around the center much like an early BSA or Hercules.

Someone had told me once that there was a Japanese website with info on these, but I have long since lost the link.
I had gotten the impression from a Japanese collector that these are a novelty there, I believe they were a very old company in Japan.

   RE:MISC:   DNB freewheel cassette posted by sam on 4/25/2004 at 12:41:16 AM
Interesting,I'm building a 1952 claud butler using a Bayliss Wiley unit hub 4 speed. The freewheel is inside the hub amd the sprockets just screw on like a fixed gear hub.Sound like yours? Bayless Wiley introduced this design in 1938---sam

AGE / VALUE:   VINTAGE BAR TAPE posted by: Kevin K on 4/24/2004 at 10:23:10 PM
Hi all. Need some advice. I picked up a roll of bar tape this weekend at a swap meet. It's called Velveteen Tape. It's different than all other tapes I've seen. Only 3/4" wide with small holes in it. When I attempt to wrap the bars it will buckle. No instructions were included so I'm lost. Advice on this please. Thanks, Kevin

AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by: T-Mar on 4/24/2004 at 11:31:20 AM
I have noticed a pattern in the serial numbers of the Miyata bicycles that crossed my path and believe that I may have decyphered the code. However, in order to increase my confidence in the findings, I require a much larger database of serial numbers. To this end, I am requesting that any Miyata owners e-mail me their serial numbers, model, year (if known) and pictures (overall shot, headbadge & tubing decal should be enough). This info will be compared against my collection of catalogues to verify the year and then be used to ratify my theory. The data I received so far, pertains primarily to the late '80s and for steel framed, road bicycles. I am particularly interested in trying to determine how far back and forward this theory works, and if it is applicable to other types of bicycles (i.e. ATBs, hybrids) and other frame materials (i.e aluminum, carbon fibre, titanium). I will contact all of the participants with the results and will try to answer any questions regarding your Miyata, to the best of my ability. Please e-mail me directly, instead of posting your dta here. I don't want tie up this website, in the event of a large number of replies. Thank-you in advance.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by Mara on 4/25/2004 at 6:47:48 PM
Why go through all the hassle? Miyata still exists and is still owned by the same people. Their serial number data does not appear to be secret industrial information, because they have always answered all the questions that I sent to them in the past. So why not simply write them a letter? You are not talking of a company like Raleigh or Schwinn that has moved offices and changed ownership seemingly a thousand times. IMHO, Miyata made the best industrial, as opposed to hand-made bikes to ever come from Japan, perhaps in the whole world.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by T-Mar on 4/26/2004 at 1:42:08 AM
As our our regular readers can attest, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of Miyata being the best of the Japanese production bicycles. I have been preaching that message for decades. Unfortunately, I have yet to receive a response to the query I made earlier this year and thought I could decypher it myself, while I was waiting. It's not a hassle at all and in fact I finf it quite enjoyable. During the process I have made contact with some very nice people with whom I share a common interest.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by JONathan on 4/26/2004 at 5:13:28 AM
Tom, I have discovered that older tools (and I suspect bikes are similar, being that they are tools of sorts) spark very low responses from the makers, when I've inquired about parts or specs. I go to specialty shops for bearings and such, rather than bothering with the manufacturer outlets. The older stuff is better, but can't tell that to the makers. Same with bikes, IMHO. Go to a shop and inquire about a vintage bike part, you know the repsonse. There are exceptions, of course. The NOS that's for sale on line is interesting. Why couldn't shops buy the NOS and sell it? They aren't that interested in supplying parts for bikes is my guess. So the question of getting much interest in the vintage bikes from their makers seems remote, unless one is persistent. Your plan is interesting. Kind of like teaching a guy how to fish, instead of just giving him a fish. To the point; I have a mid-'80's Miyata "terra runner" touring MTB that has under-the-stay U-brake. That is how I dated it. I am partial to Fuji's, "Team Fuji" in particular, yet the "terra runner" is triple-butted spline tubes and it is my best bike in the MTB genre. It beats out a Raleigh "seneca"; Giant "Iguana" and Specialized "rock hopper compe-A"; all similar vintage. Surprisingly, my first MTB is Univega's "Alpina Uno" which is a close second! Your idea may well apply to other, more convoluted codes, that appear on other makes. Maybe there isn't a logic!
Good luck, JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by Rob on 4/26/2004 at 5:28:15 PM
T-Mar...I've got two old Miyatas...a 912 from about 1985...all original...I'll send you the serial # and the date codes on the Shimano 600 components...the other bike I'll have to dig out of the pile...I forget the model...it's a really tall bike in quite good shape, early to mid '80s...bought, if I recall correctly, in Calgary. I'm not sure why I'm keeping it...parts I guess, or maybe I hoping a tall guy will come along with something good to trade...:)

T-Mar, I think it is actually probably more reliable to take the approach you are taking to building a data base....it's a fact based process, rather than relying on what might be a less than detailed response by a company. Most companies are forward looking...they have to market the current stuff to stay alive...for a lot of products ancient history starts with last year's product... and, of course, there's cost cutting...if it doesn't bring in revenue...I would say a lot of them only retain the records that they are legally required to keep.... well,need I say more...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by Richard on 5/12/2004 at 2:48:02 PM
I've recently acquired a steel frame 3-10 miyata and am very
pleased with the bike,I'd compare it to some of the best bikes in the world (I used to like Gitane and Bianci), it has a light-blue frame and and quick release brakes, as to the year I don't know, 1992 or 1983(perhaps), the serial # is J922833, it also has alluminium handle-bars(custom)with leather hand-grips, the frame is supposedly steel, but feels as light as any hybrid approx. 20 lbs.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by Doug B in NY on 5/16/2004 at 9:02:08 AM
I have a Miyata 914 in perfect shape that I just never rode. I was thinking of updating the Wolber wheels and RX100 Shimano components. Should I?

Any ideas as to which replacements would be a good match ?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Miyata Serial Numbers posted by Bob Edgerton on 12/28/2006 at 6:49:20 PM
Can anyone help me identify the year of a Miyata 610 with SN= MZ90608
I am also interested to learn what the stock handlebar and stem would have been on this bike. Can the 15 speed configuration be converted to any of the newer systems of 9 or 10 gears in the rear?

MISC:   Anyone need a truing stand? posted by: marc on 4/23/2004 at 5:23:11 AM
I picked up a truing stand today and it works great. It's pretty straight forward as I suppose most are, but this one was on sale. With tax it came out around 38.00 It's from my local Performance shop. I swear I'm not affliated with them at all, I just thought I would mention that they are having a pretty good sale on some stuff. MSRP on the truing stand I bought is 59.00. It's their house brand model. It's nothing fancy but it works. Also got some cinelli tape for around 10.00 a set, including their american flag pattern which I haven't quite figured out which bike it would look best on. It made me chuckle.

Also stopped by the thrift store and found a his and her set of fuji monterey bikes. They were in great shape, valite tubing. Is this a decent material? They seemed pretty light but the wheels on both were chrome and both were equipped with suntour AR. Not impressive, but they had some nice nitto stems and bars. I just wonder why fuji would put cheap parts on a decent frame.

   RE:MISC:   Anyone need a truing stand? posted by JONathan on 4/23/2004 at 6:52:16 AM
I think valite was a Fuji steel. The "va" might refer to vanadium steel alloy. Vanadium adds strength and impact resistance to the steel. It also increased rigidity, not lost on a bike frame that has to take a beating. My brother has a valite tubed "pulsar" and he is impressed with the quality of steel. That's enough for me. I have been looking for a valited Fuji, since he won't give me his, and I have not sen any. Fuji made a bunch of models, all were good. They are precision crafted bikes, IMHO. They've had more than 100 years of practice building bikes. Interesting that they have kept nimble in the industry and have managed to avoid things like Raleigh and Schwinn experienced in a changing bike market. The SunTour "Ar" was a real good derailer. I have used one everyday on a "traveler" with no problems. They are simple and durable units, not brutal likea Campy GS, but tough enough for cruising.
If I think about it, the components of all my Japanese bikes seem well chosen for the intended purpose. The SunTour "V" is a tough unit that shifts OK. The "Ar" is lighter and probably not as rugged as the "V's". I've banged up a lot of "V's", but no failures. The paint and lug joinery on those Fuji's are as good as it gets. My two favorite bikes in my rideable collection are a "Team Fuji" ('86) and a Bridgestone "RB-1" ('88/89). The Fuji has better paint work, but both are superb in quality. The "RB-1" is slightly faster due to the SunTour (GPx) 53T main ring. The "Team" handles slightly better, but it has Campy on the front and I've ridden it more hours.
I picked up a Parks truing stand that is cool for truing with the tires on the wheels. It weighs about 30 pounds! I'm careful not to trip and drop it on my foot while setting it up on the bench. It's way over designed for my useage, but it was cheap. The stand is good for truing the radius on the rim. I'd call it a luxury item. A bike stand is a necessity, IMHO. I have two stands. One for longterm projects and an "open" one for quick tunes on stuff I ride. Hey, give that "Monterey" a spin. A his-hers combo is nice. I tried the "His n Her" approach with a matched set of Schwinn "suburbans"...it didn't work out. The intimidation factor of the lady's frame being a barbell on wheels was too much. It was a good idea, wrong bikes.
Good rides,

AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by: JONathan on 4/22/2004 at 7:11:31 AM
I dug out a GS, hoping it was a generation 1 product. Is there a way to make sense of the numbers and letters stamped into the housing? It sure weighs a bunch more than a SunTour "cyclone", that's for sure.
I think a SunTour pulley will work. The one with the ball bearings. Judging by its weight, and some undefined sense I get, the thing might be 40 years BP.
I tried the site mentioned, which has excellent details, but I couldn't find a decoder for the numbering system.
Thanks, JONathan

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by T-Mar on 4/22/2004 at 1:05:01 PM
JONathan, the reason the derailleur is so heavy is that the castings are bronze, which are then chrome plated.

All the Gran Sport rear derailleurs that I've seen are 3rd generation and only have the Camapagnolo name and capacity marked on the back of the parallelogram (i.e "DA 14 A 26 DENTI", which translates to "from 14 to 26 teeth"). I've seen some cages stamped "CATENA 3/32", which means "3/32 chain".

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by JONathan on 4/22/2004 at 4:09:06 PM
Wow! Tom, thanks. Exact description of mine. I presume it is the "generation 3" version. Bronze? Very interesting. Might use it for my Bottechia, but the SunTour "V" that's on there shows no signs of wanting to quit.
Comparing the GS to my "Valentino-extra" rear derailers eliminates any doubts about why the GS was used in hard racing. Slap it on and forget about it. What would be a retail price?...Seeing as how you have your catalog archives handy (hint, hint).
They must have used real fine casting materials to get such a clean looking edges and surfaces.
Thanks a lot.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by T-Mar on 4/25/2004 at 4:25:29 PM
Ciclista, that's an excellent resume and very interesting bicycle collection you have. However, it appears that we are on opposite sides of track for the issue(s), and while I could refute your latest arguments, it would not alter the outcome. Given the same or similar situation, it's not unusual for people to come out with different perspectives. This is a case where we can only agree to disagree.

While my opinions may conflict with yours, they are born from experience, and are not those of an armchair theorist as you suggest. I have decades of experience as a competitor, mechanic and coach, besides a career as a mechanical and quality engineer.

   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by John E on 4/22/2004 at 7:36:51 PM
The Campag. GS will run forever, but because of the length of the cage and the location of its pivot, it is suitable only for relatively narrow-range, half-step gearing, such as 50-46/14-26. The Nuovo Record, with its lighter-weight construction and offset cage pivot, is a significantly more competent unit, and can handle something like 50-42/13-26 (what I put on my Bianchi) or 52-42/14-24 decently. Unfortunately for Campag., your slant planograph SunTour will outshift both of them.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by T-Mar on 4/22/2004 at 8:12:07 PM
I can attest that they won't last forever. Mine has signifigant play in the lower rear bushing. Fortunately, it's relatively easy to grind the head off the pivot pin and replace the bushing and pin.

The 3rd generation are readily distinguishable from 1st & 2nd generation by the black oxide, hex recess, mounting and tension bolts above and below the parallelogram. 1st & 2nd generation have chromed, hex recess, mounting bolts. Also, the two early versions have drilled jockey and tension pulleys, while the 3rd generation's are not drilled. The 2nd generation is distinguished from the 1st by a beaked extension of the cage, with one supporting web.

IMHO, the Campagnolo NR/SR derailleurs were vastly over-rated. Any of the other top line, '70s derailleurs from the other oher major manufacturers would outperform them (Huret Jubilee, Simplex SLJ, Shimano Crane/Dura Ace, SunTour Cylone & Superbe).

As for cost, the latest published cost that I have for a Campagnolo GS rear derailleur is $17.95 US. This was towards the end of their availability in the '60s, so they would probably have been substantially cheaper in the '50s. For comparison, the Huret Svelto & Simplex Prestige were selling for $5.50 US during this period.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by ciclista on 4/23/2004 at 4:26:10 AM
I have supplied quite a few first and second generation Campagnolo Gran Sport derailleurs to collectors and have a first generation one in my hand as I write this. During the production period of the so-called first generation, there were apparently many modifications that took place during the course of the year. I do not know which was first and which was second and so on. Not even at Campagnolo are they aware (or truly care) what changes took place either. The first generation began with drilled pulley wheels with 9 holes and then for most if not all of the second generation they switched to 16 holes. When the change precisely took place is unknown. Perhaps there were first generation derailleurs with either 9 or 16 hole pulley wheels. Perhaps there were second generation ones with either 9 or 16 holes. Anybody stating to know the 'truth' is only fooling themself. The same goes for the horn extension of the cage commonly seen on the second generation. It seems quite likely that the horn extension actually appeared on both the first and second generation. There is photographic evidence of both versions having the horn.

As far as the quality of Campagnolo derailleurs go, the results speak for themselves. Campagnolo were never even remotely close to being the largest selling derailleur. They were always a relatively small producer that specialized in high quality, high price niche market products. They nonetheless dominated high end racing results for many decades. The Gran Sport and later the Record, Nuovo Record and Super Record were the uncontested best derailleurs for their intended application, namely racing. For other purposes, they were indeed lacking and far lesser in performance to other brands. But to take their performance under non-racing circumstances and thereby define them as over-rated shows a total lack of knowledge of the racing environment and needs thereof. As a pro cyclist trying to earn a living with your bike, or likewise as a team mechanic or directeur sportif, you could not risk not making it to the end of a race. Something that was far more likely to happen with other derailleurs. On the other hand any highly skilled cyclist could readily learn to deal with the idiosyncracies of the Campagnolo gear shift, to the point where a marginally slower and/or less precise shift made little if any difference. To win a race, you do not need to be the best, only the best of those remaining at the end of the race.

I have owned many Simplex derailleurs from the 30's through the 80's and none is even remotely as durable and rugged as the Campagnolo counterpart. The same goes for Huret, Suntour and Shimano. This is not to say that Campagnolo is infallible, as they made some first class 'garbage' such as the Sport, the Sportman, the Nuovo Sport, the Valentino, the Velox, the Nuovo Valentino, th Gran Turismo... I wouldn't want to have any of them on my bikes.

   Campagnolo rear derailers posted by John E on 4/23/2004 at 7:35:53 PM
As ciclista noted, the only real downsides of the venerable vintage Campag. derailleurs were late shifting and narrow (race-oriented) capacity. Racers indeed easily mastered, either consciously or subconsciously, an "overshift and return" algorithm to compensate for the late shifting, and their 14-22, 13-24, and similar freewheels, with 3-to-10-tooth chainring drops, did not push the capacity envelope.

The other big traditional advantage of Campag. over all other manufacturers, especially Shimano, was support of small replacement parts.

   RE:Campagnolo rear derailers posted by P.C. Kohler on 4/23/2004 at 9:25:05 PM
Hmmm.. so my idea of putting a 13-21 tooth freewheel on my '79 Raleigh Competition GS with a Nouvo Gran Sport derailleur is not a prudent one??

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:Campagnolo rear derailers posted by JONathan on 4/24/2004 at 1:36:03 AM
The idea of friction-shifting in racing adds an interesting element of coordination and skill to what is remarkably absent in the click-shifter indexed units. Just as the weight limitation has come into mix, I wonder if the next generation...automatic transmission of derailers will come about. How about fixing a flat? P. C., you could set it up on the stand and give it a try. A NR can handle a 54T main ring! I mazed out a Shimano crane running a TA triple ring. I had to give up the two low gears on the largest chainring. Just not enough chain to run the small ring all the way and the large ring all the way through the 6 gears. Keeping the jockey pulley off the gears is job-1. I learned a bunch from the thread, thanks everyone.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by T-Mar on 4/24/2004 at 3:54:49 AM
P,C., the Nuovo Gran Sport is a completely different from the Gran Sport. It has an advertised maximum cog size of 28T and a capacity for 26T. Your 13-21T gearing should work nicely unless you have an abnormally huge difference between chainrings.

I stick by previous statement that the Campagnolo NR/SR derailleurs were over rated, even in the context of a racing derailleur. Let me explain why I have this view. Granted, their reliability was better than other derailleurs, but for me that's a red herring when you're competing and have a much higher rate of flatting or crashing than succumbing to any mechanical failure, let alone derailleur failure. And yes, you can compensate for their shifting idiosyncrasy, but why should you have to? The prime purpose of a derailleur is to provide and accurate, quick shift! The only other factors for me that are important are cost, weight and to a much lesser extent, aesthetics. Out of all these factors, the only one where I judge Campagnolo superior would be the reliability and that advantage is not signifigant enough for me to rate them higher than the other racing derailleurs. Of course this is all personal opinion and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, based on their own criteria. I just thought I would let you know where I was coming from.

Lest you think I'm anti-Campagnolo, please note that I have five Campagnolo equipped bicycles from 4 different decades. I believe Campagnolo did some things extrememly well, particulary the bearings/races, chainrings and as John E. states, parts availability. But there were, in my opinion, better options for some of their product, namely derailleurs, brakesets and seat posts. That's my 2 cents worth.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by ciclista on 4/24/2004 at 12:25:43 PM
T-mar is entitled to an opinion, like anybody else, but like all the Frank Berto's of this world, is basing his opinion on wacky otherworldly data. Flatting is not per se a race ending inconvenience (unless happening in the very last part of the race.) It is also not something that can be avoided by choice of material. So to compare flatting to any mechanical failure is simple comparing apples with oranges and ill-advised to get a balanced and accurate view. As for crashing, this is precisely the cause of most mechanical failures. If you crash and you break your Simplex derailleur (quite common with Rilsan), your Universal brakes (also common), your race in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's is virtually certain to be over. If you can't get your saddle to sit exactly at the angle that you want because you are using any of the handreds of seatposts that don't offer step-less adjustability, you will also never achieve the comfort needed to be at your best. From the 50's-early 80's, no other brand of derailleurs, brakesets or seatposts offered what Campagnolo offered. As for your claimed importance of cost, weight and aesthetics, this shows your complete lack of first hand knowledge with racing, as these elements don't cloud most racers minds. Cost of components to a pro racer was irrelevant. The same goes for aesthetics. Only weight can come into play in the rare instance. Rare, being the operative word. On a downhill or flat course, weight makes absolutely no difference to racers. Only in largely uphill races does weight play a role. As for the weight savings of derailleurs, brakes and setposts, it is so negligible that you can achieve the same results by simply tossing a water bottle, changing to a silk jersey instead of a wool one, losing the weight off of your body; besides which, all of these components are dead weight not rotating weight.

As far as derailleurs go, I believe the 'best' derailleurs for racing can be defined as: early 30's (when derailleurs were first widely permitted in racing) Vittoria, late 30's to early 50's Simplex, early 50's to early 80's Campagnolo, early 80's to mid 90's Shimano and the last decade a throw up between Shimano and Campagnolo. For brakes, up until the 50's, you could interchangeably use most top of the line alloy side-pull brakes without much difference. These were then supplanted by the generation of centre-pull brakes including the Mafac, Weinmann and Universal; agin, these were mostly inerchangeable. Campagnolo, when they entered the chase in the late 60's added some features unknown until then, including the continuously variable brake Q/R, the most ergonomically functional brake lever and brake body form, the wheel guides which enabled quicker wheel changes in the event of punctures, the toothed washer used to affix the brake and a quality control that made all othe manufacturers pale by comparison. Lastly, as for seatposts, the original Campagnolo 2-bolt design has no comparison to this day. Now that the patent protection has run out, you see untold modern variations on it.

I own Campagnolo-equipped bikes from each of 8 different decades (1930's-present), just like Simplex-equipped bikes from the 30's to the 80's, just like Shimano equipped bikes from the 70's to present... I have also raced, cycle-toured through 13 countries on three continents, built frames and wrenched in a variety of top-notch bike shops. I have also been in a following car in both the Tour de France and Giro d'Italia and have many seasoned pro peloton past and present team mechanics and riders (both American and European) as friends. I am not speaking from theoretical knowledge but from actual experience.

   Campagnolo posted by John E on 4/24/2004 at 10:39:09 PM
The 1970s Campag. NR/SR rear derailleurs may be overrated, but nothing else would look right on my 1981 Bianchi! I think the matching front derailleur is superb, particularly for my 50-42 8-tooth drop. Of all the friction downtube shift levers I have owned, my 1959 and 1981 Campag. units are by far the best-operating (and best-looking). However, for nonindexed barcons, nothing beats the SunTour ratchet units of the 1970s.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailer posted by Don Gillies on 3/24/2005 at 6:28:56 AM
I have to agree at least in part with the first assessment of Campagnolo vs. Simplex and Huret. Simplex didn't get its act together until 1976 when the all-metal SLJ's started to appear. Huret stuff was either super-heavy and worked well - or flimsy and worked poorly - there was no middle ground for Huret.

I'd say the one exception has to be Suntour. There would be no reason not to use a Suntour V derailleur on a campy bike, except that it sold for a rock-bottom bargain $7.95 price rather than $32.95. The low price scared away many racers. They could not understand how a maker would sell a product that worked well and lasted for only $7.95.

The suntour cyclone, introduced in 1975, was the first EXTREME competition that Campagnolo had since 1951/2. It was lighter and shifted better and it was beautiful and more affordable. It trounced Campagnolo in 3 out of 4 areas (in beauty, I'd say it equaled campy, and the front was also very beautiful too.)

Anyway, notice that Campy put out Super Record just 3 years later and then had to turn over their entire line of derailleurs starting in ? about 1984. Suntour indeed toppled campagnolo from the top of the heap with a superior product.


VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   and you thought your bike was light! posted by: Warren on 4/22/2004 at 2:29:51 AM
I am always amazed by new technology...last week I examined a ti Merlin framest with the new Dura Ace 10 group...it was about 15 lbs and I thought wow, look at how far technology has taken us.

and then this appears on ebay...and it is beautiful to boot. And then I remember why I sold my newer road bikes.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   and you thought your bike was light! posted by John S on 4/22/2004 at 4:11:54 AM
What a treasure of handcraft! Thanks Warren, a time capsule. How in the world did the French reduce to Gitane and Peugeot with their careless finishing after the tradition of fine machines established in the technical trials.

If you haven't seen it, check out Vintage Bicycle Quarterly. I've subscribed, some wonderful history and context for Rebour drawings.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   and you thought your bike was light! posted by T-Mar on 4/22/2004 at 12:31:23 PM
Very interesting and lovely! All the tubes are held in the lugs by pinch bolts! Total mechanical assembly of the frame! That sure would cut down on skilled labour costs!

I'm pretty sure that's a 49A crankset, as opposed to a 49D. I can't believe the seller would get that wrong.

The weight is amazing. I would think that the components alone would total 12 lbs, but it appears that there are a lot of proprietary Carminargent components and the company were obviously weight fanatics. I doubt too many of these have survived. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to have ridden it on the rough roads of day.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   and you thought your bike was light! posted by P.C. Kohler on 4/22/2004 at 2:17:58 PM
"Careless finishing" of Gitane and Peugeot...!!

Er, you are right. I only noticed it when riding my PX-10e the other and looking back could see overspray from the black-painted ends of the backstay at the seat cluster. Even Raleigh in the '70s didn't do that!

But finish or not, my '72 PX-10e has been an absolute delight to ride since I got her in February. If there is a faster or more fun bike to ride, I'd be surprised.

P.C. Kohler

   careless finishing of Peugeot posted by John E on 4/22/2004 at 7:42:50 PM
My UO-8 is not too badly finished, particularly for a basic early 1970s 10-speed, but, as I have commented in the past, my 1980 "almost a PX-10" PKN-10 exhibits rather shoddy craftsmanship, including brazing voids on both rear dropouts and big ugly seams on the backs of the fork blades.

MISC:   1-3/8" X 26 TPI bottom brackets posted by: Chris on 4/21/2004 at 4:21:59 AM
Anyone know what kind of bike would use a 1-3/8" x 26 TPI bottom bracket? Left and right hand threads like a standard english BB, but 26 tpi instead of 26

   RE:MISC:   1-3/8 posted by JONathan on 4/21/2004 at 5:22:45 AM
I would guess Raleigh. Look for a "heron" stamp on the spindle, and/or "made in England" on the BB cups..after you get all the caked grease off the surface.
Some older Raleighs even had 70mm BB widths, I think. Those would be very vintage bikes.
Good luck, JONathan

   26TPI BB threading posted by John E on 4/21/2004 at 2:26:31 PM
From Sheldon's website:

"Generally speaking, Raleighs that use cottered cranks will also have Raleigh 26 TPI threading for both the bottom bracket and the headset. Although the diameters of these parts are the same as B.S.C., the different thread pitch makes them incompatible."

Although Sheldon talks about retapping to 24TPI, I would prefer retapping to 1mm Swiss threading, assuming one could find an anticlockwise-threaded metric fixed cup. I have had success forcing a 24TPI fixed cup into the 25.4TPI/mm threaded BB shell of my Peugeot PKN-10, and 24TPI into 26TPI would be only slightly more drastic.

   RE:MISC:   1-3/8 posted by David on 4/22/2004 at 12:43:29 AM
Doesn't Phil Wood make a BB for the Raleigh-threaded shell? (Assuming you want to go first class!)

AGE / VALUE:   Need help ID'ing old Raleigh posted by: Nathan Bracko on 4/20/2004 at 8:37:44 PM
Afew years back we picked up my dads, or uncles old childhood bike from my grandparents. I want to restore it but I can't find any info on what it is exactly. It appears to be of a 1960's or 70's vintage. All it says on it is Raleigh, and Made in England. I found some numbers stamped onto the bottom of the frame "9938" if I remember right.
It's a gold bike with a coaster wheel (back pedal to brake), 1-speed, checkered banana seat, and 20" wheels with dunlop white walls.
The closest thing I've found so far that looks like it is a "Raleigh Rodeo" but they all have handbrakes and 3-speeds.
Any help, links, or other would really be appreciated.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Need help ID'ing old Raleigh posted by JONathan on 4/22/2004 at 7:47:36 AM
Sounds like it might be a rare one. How about this one:

It's a '69 Chopper with coaster brake and what looks like 20's.
The genre of bike was a brisk seller. What a difference from the true, core BMX bike that evolved into the the likes of the GT with 4130 tubing, caliper brakes, backward facing rear dropouts and 360 stem.
Very interesting to have that one in your collection. The 20 inch wheels can keep up on a recreational cruise. I fixed up a GTfor fun. I haven't taken it past the driveway, but I'm told it is a blast to ride.
Excellent quality in some of the serious 20 inchers.
Good luck,

AGE / VALUE:   $227.50 for a 1973 Schwinn Continental posted by: Kevin K on 4/20/2004 at 8:34:10 PM
Hi. A 1973 Schwinn Continental just sold on ebay for $227.50. Color was Sunset Orange, the only year the color was offered on the Continental. Bike looked mint, probally was. Keep your eyes peeled this summer at garage sales. You may not want it personally but there as those out there that do. Kevin

      $227.50 for a 1973 Schwinn Continental posted by John E on 4/21/2004 at 2:28:07 PM
Wow! That has to be a record for a Conti of the dime-a-dozen bike-boom era.