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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   help:) I just found a MOHAWK bike 3 speed posted by: donna on 5/14/2004 at 7:16:23 PM
I just found a 3 speed bike with 22" rimmed wheels...it has a indian head with sweeping feathers....thats reads MOHAWK on the chain guard...On the frame itself it has two more lables with the mohawk name and a R for rights reserved symbol. And it has a red white and blue band where it says mohawn on the frame...its a copper light brown in color...I cant seem to find any info on it...can you help...I have pics if you need thanks donna

AGE / VALUE:   VeloSolex??? posted by: Randy on 5/14/2004 at 2:54:45 AM
I picked up a VeloSolex ten speed the other day at a yard sale for four dollars Canadian. It has alloy wheels laced t quick release hubs. The drop-outs are forged and made by Simplex. Simplex derailleurs take care of the shifting chores. The lugs are long, not too fancy and quite pointed. Does anyone know anything about this old bicycle. I would appreciate any information that you have. I have never heard of the VeloSolex and I can't decided if I should keep it or not.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   VeloSolex??? posted by JONathan on 5/14/2004 at 8:02:25 AM
French built, I think. I've observed a chap running one with a tiny 2-stroke motor. This was during the muscle car era, too. Before mopeds hit.
The motor fitted above the front forks and friction wheel pushed the front tire. The Solex is a fine carburetor. Maybe yours is the bike without the motor. The heavier lugs seem appropriate.
How does it ride?

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   VeloSolex??? posted by Randy on 5/14/2004 at 9:43:07 AM
The VeloSolex is missing a few parts and I have not ridden it ofr this reason. It is quite light though I don't recall any special tubing deccals. Tonight, time permitting, I will have a better look and pass on more detail regarding the components and any frame identifications. I agree on its being of French origin.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   VeloSolex??? posted by David on 5/14/2004 at 10:48:51 AM
It's not surprising that Solex made real bicycles as well as the more familiar moped [with the front wheel friction drive]. Motobecane "Mobylette" mopeds were even more popular in Europe than Solex in the 70s and we're very familiar with their bicycles. Sorry, I got no info though.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   VeloSolex??? posted by T-Mar on 5/14/2004 at 12:32:08 PM
As JONathan suggests, VeloSoleX was a French company. Their fame and fortune was made in the manufacture of motorized bicycles. They also manufactured mopeds, but wern't as successful. Consequently, as David states, it's not suprising that they marketed bicycles too.

I doubt it 's a motorized bicycle as JONathan suggests, as a derailleur would not be required. However, in the event that JONathan is correct, they would be some mounting tabs present for the engine. Also, all the Solex motorized bicycles that I've seen are distinguished by a step-through frame design, similar to a female bicycle, to facilitate mounting and dismounting, which would be difficult on a standard frame due to the high centre of gravity caused by the engine and gas tank being located above the front wheel.

After the death of the founder in 1973, the company was obtained by Renault who were also the majority shareholder in Motobecane. At this point, Motobecane stopped production of their mopeds and motorized bicycles in favour of the Solex product. Though I have no evidence to substantiate this, one would think that the other portion of this deal would be that Solex would stop production of bicycles in favour of Motobecane. Consequently, I suspect your model is 1973 or earlier. There's lots of websites covering the VeloSoleX/Solex motorized bicycles, but I haven't seen mention a standard bicycle.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   VeloSolex??? posted by Derek Coghill on 5/14/2004 at 7:02:40 PM
Some Solexes had a derailleur, it might have been an accessory though. I have two, of the moped variety, one from the late 50s and a folding one(!) from the 70s. Motobécane continued to produce mopeds (and still do); they're now badged MBK though. I have a book about VeloSolex, must go and do some research....it's in French though so I may be some time!

   Sprinter Mopeds from Taiwan posted by Wes on 5/30/2004 at 11:06:36 PM
I recently was given a 1978 Sprinter Moped. I have meneged to get it to spin again, but now I have discovered a rather large gas leak coming from under the engine. The hole is abot dime sised, with threads and what feels like a sponge/cushion insode. I cannot find any info on this bike and would like to restore it as best I can. Anyone wioth knowledge of this bike would be forever in my prayers. Thanks!

AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by: Frank Garvin on 5/13/2004 at 9:15:02 PM
I bought a vintage Peugeot touring bike (in good condition) about two weeks ago...it's a 12-speed with center-pull caliper brakes.

How can I determine the year of my bike? The model is a Record Du Monde. Thanks.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by JONathan on 5/13/2004 at 10:23:08 PM
That's not a lot of info to go with, but generally the lugged frames will be '70's and internal ("lugless") lugged frames willbe '80's.
The 12 speed indicates 126mm rear dropout spacing...possibly, that is not counting the Mailaard "helicomatics" 6's with 122mm spacing that could fit into a 120mm with some tweeking.
10-speeds would be '60's and early '70's. The "carbolite 103" tube sticker would be '80's. The "Special tube allege" sticker would be 60's to '70's. Try the "cycles retro-Peugeot" site for their pictures and dates.
I tracked down a P-60 touring model from the 50's using their listings. Cottered cranks? '60's and early '70's for the "U" series. Oh, I believe the early '80's touring bikes with regular steel frames had integral derailer hanger.
Mine had Sachs-Huret rear derailer that was all bent up. I tweeked the hanger and fitted a SunTour like it was made for it. My '80's have the seat-tube decal with color gradient stripes, whereas my early external lugged bikes have the checkerboard pattern with the lion inset. They look cool.
Good luck, check that site.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by Derek Coghill on 5/13/2004 at 11:07:08 PM
Ah, yes, but my 10-speed has a welded (lugless) frame and cottered cranks. I must take some photos sometime....

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by JONathan on 5/14/2004 at 5:20:26 AM
The frames that look welded are internally lugged, I think. Although I have not a way to verify that, it seems that the TIG welded frames had to have an outer bead to reinforce the heat stressed weakened ends of the tubes. The UO-8's and UO-18's that I have are clean around the tube joints, that is, they have no bead around the interface. Well, what do I know? There were internal-lugged Peugeots that were used on the entry level frames during the '80's. I have Stronglite's cotterless and Nervar alloy cotterless cranks on mine. They are the best feature of the bikes' component mix, IMHO.
The "Iseran" was one model with the internal lugging and integral hanger. They used to be all over the secondhand/charity stores and church rummage sales up until a couple years ago. I have not seen one Peugeot in a thrift all year. I was lucky to score an ancient ('52/53) P-60 this year at a rummage sale. If I ever get the picture sized to 100KB, I'll try adding it to the database. It is externally lugged, of course. Craftsmen built those, the '80's have a precison look with that robot-built overtone, IMHO, of course. The internal lugged frames may have started in the late '70's. Some of mine have lugged frames with cotterless cranks. One mixte has Simplex "SX410" rear derailer, which was the beefed version of the ubiquitous delrin black //-ogram.
The head badges vary from a metal plate with the lion to just a sticker of a lion. The cottered cranked bikes have lugged frames, in my collection.
The Sachs-Huret derailers were in the '70's. One UO-18 I ride came with Shimano front and rear derailers, Nervar cotterless cranks; Weinmann "Vainqueurs" and....Super Champion "Gentleman 81" wheels with 6-speed Maillard "helicomatic" free hub. It goes off-road, no sweat. I use ape-hanger bars tilted forward a bit. This one is '80's for sure with "carbolite 103" (gas pipe) tubes. Phillipe bars are on another. If you set these Peugeots up with good brake shoes and hp tires (if you have hooked-bead rims!) they are superb riders. I'm a sucker for these Peugeot mixtes.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by T-Mar on 5/14/2004 at 1:38:45 PM
There has been a long standing argument on whether the Carbolite frames are lugless or internally lugged. I have seen reputedly reliable sources (i.e. bicycle magazines) state both methods. One thing is for sure, they were not "welded", but were "brazed", as JONathn states. This implies either internal lugs or an internal brazing process such as Motobecane used during the same period.

I don't know exactly when this process was introduced, but it will vary depending on the country of origin for a particular frame. The French manufactured frames probably used it first, then the various other factories around the world would have been certified for the proceess at later dates.

Peugeot USA documentation shows the 1979 models as still being externally lugged. My earliest evidence of non-externally lugged frames in the USA is 1983. I have a gap in my Peugeot documentation for 1980-1982, and can't comment on that era. Unfortunately, the wanadoo site is not much help during this era, as it covers primarily high end models, which all appear to be externally lugged. It would appear that Peugeot introduced the non-externally lugged frames on the entry level models.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by JB on 5/15/2004 at 12:14:02 AM
On the Peugeot discussio, just finished a UO-8..early 70's, I would guess....very similar to a France-Loire vintage..same Atax, Simplex, set-up...only difference and question I have is it has weird Huret wing-nut releases on front and Atom rear hubs...does the Huret set a date..seems definitely more primitive than the quick releases of the era. Oh yeah, I have a special place for the old Peugeot...learned to drive on a Peugeot 404 in 62'...had four on the column!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by T-Mar on 5/15/2004 at 1:07:27 PM
I believe wing nuts were eliminated on US models as part of the 1976 CPSC regulations. If I recall correctly, the reason was that the 'wings' were considered a protrusion and were a safety concern. A secondary safety consideration was that many people could not tighen them sufficiently by hand. Some companies started implementing the pending CPSC regulations in advance, with modifications appearing a year or so early. My 1974 catalogue pictures definitely show wing nuts on the entry level A08 and junior lightweights. I can't say if the 1975 Peugeot models did, or did not have wing nuts, but 1976 and later models did not.

As for the U08, I don't recall it having anything but quick release. Using my catalogues, I've traced quick release on the U08 back to 1972. I have no data on the U08 prior to that. Are you sure you have a UO8 and not an AO8? They were very similar, with the prime difference being the quick release and chrome fork tips on the U08. The A08 had wing nuts or hex nuts and an all painted fork. If it is an U08 then it is at least pre 1972. If it's an A08, it's at least pre 1976.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by Derek Coghill on 5/15/2004 at 5:53:42 PM
A slight digression, but I have the opposite of your "four on the tree" Peugeot; a "three on the floor" Holden.

Wingnuts are cool.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by wingnuts on 5/15/2004 at 8:31:13 PM
Painted fork...thats it..must be an AO8...rather than an UO8..it does ride well...pulls the hills, and coasts forever..thanks T-Mar

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   year of bike posted by stephen on 5/28/2004 at 1:02:32 PM
I've just aquired an old Peugeot bicycle (serial # 2715931) which I believe to be a UO-8, but not sure...paid $5! It has a lugged frame, 700x25 Weinmann rims, chrome fork tips, flat -truly ragged tires, Mafac brakes and Simplex derailers...also missing the seat, seatpost, and brake levers-though someone had substituted others from what must have been an old upright 3-speed application. From the above number is there a way to properly identify the model and production year?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by: Joe on 5/13/2004 at 7:40:05 AM
I came acrossed a Raleigh frame this past week that has no markings other than the headbadge and a Made in Holland decal on the seat tube. It's white with black trim, there are two black bands on the seat post about 2" wide, and a black panel on the down tube about 12" long. The black areas are the same as a '73 Grand Prix I used to have, but there is no sign of any other decals and the paint appears to be all original. There is two triangle shaped outlines shoing on the fork, but nothing in the center, it looks like a painted outline to locate a decal, either the earlier Raleigh "R" or a pair of Carlton decals? There is no tubing decal and it doesn't feel particularly light, so I doubt if it's anything special.
I first thought it was a Grand Prix, but then i noticed the wrap around seat stays, and the fact that it has chrome fork tips and rear stays, the Grand Prix examples I've had have all had painted rear stays. There are no signs of any serial numbers anywhere, the cranks are Raleigh (Nervar style) cottered steel, the calipers are Mafac Racers, and the stem and bars are GB alloy. The bars have the engraved map of England. The wheelset, brake levers, saddle and post, and derailleurs are missing.

I am assuming it's plain steel, by the weight, and it probably had simplex derailleurs, since it had a Simplex derailleur adapter claw still bolted to the rear dropout. The seat post diameter is 25.4mm.
What I found strange is the fact that there are no decals, the downtube decal, I had always thought was part of the black panel, as are the bands on the seat tube. It don't look like they have worn off, and I have another Raleigh here on which there are several scratches on the decals that go right through to the paint, as if the entire panel is printed as one, not a black panel with Raleigh added on top. The paint looks to be all original, and not much of what is here looks like it was ever disturbed.

Did the lesser models have wrap around seat stays back then?
Was there another model similar to the Grand Prix or Record with alloy GB bars and stem?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by T-Mar on 5/13/2004 at 1:18:45 PM
I believe your assumption of an early '70s Gran prix to be correct. The 25.4mm post indicates an entry level model. Better models would have had thinner tubing and therefore larger diamter seat posts. The wrap arpound stays are characteristic of a Gran Prix, as are most of the components. The seat tube banding also indicates early '70s.

The two anomalies are the MAFAC brakest and the chrome stays, but this may be unique to the Dutch manufactured bicycles. In the case of the brakeset, it may also have been a substitute due to shortages of the normal Weinmann, or just rider preference.

The GB stems and bars were found on most of the Raleigh lightweights of the period, including the Super Course, Gran Sport (usually GB randonneur bars)and Competition. I believe that the top of the line Pro and International also used upper model GB bars, though they usually had TTT stems during this period.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by RobA on 5/13/2004 at 7:55:35 PM
FWIW...I've seen the brand, "Gazelle"...on a bike that otherwise looked like a Gran Prix.... "Gazelle" was overlaid on the black background....as I understand back in that era, Gazelle was a Raleigh brand...the name

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by Joe on 5/14/2004 at 2:19:00 AM
I forgot about the Gazelle posibility, it could have well been a Gazelle branded bike, and someone simply removed the Gazelle decals. Although the Made in Holland decal is identical to those use on the Grand Prix, but they could have both used the same decal.
The bars aren't the Randoneur style but they have the small map of England engraved in them. I've seen both before. The map of England on a Holland made bike is a little odd? But it was an Engish company.
I didn't realize that the lower end models used the wrap around stays. The lugs look more like those on a later 70's Raleigh, somewhat plain, but not totally, they look like those on my '78 Super Gran Prix. The earleir Grand Prix's I've seen have all had more decorative lugs and painted rear stays, including a few from Holland. This has the stays chromed about halfway up. With a small gold strip at the edge of the paint. Just as on the forks.
Without the brake levers being there, I can't say if the Mafac calipers are original or not, I would be more inclined to say they were if the whole package was there. It does have Mafac hangers though. I did have an early Super Course that resembled this, but it lacked the wrap around stays but had the full Mafac Racer brake set.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by T-Mar on 5/14/2004 at 2:00:55 PM
But would a Gazelle have a Raleigh headbadge? The original post states there is a headbadge on the frame and since Joe stated it was a Raleigh frame, I would assume it to be a Raleigh headbadge.

The seatpost size definitely implies a hi-tensile steel frame. That means a Record or Grand Prix if it's a lightweight. Of the two, the Grand Prix had wrap around stays.

A late '70s model. especially a Grand Prix or higher model, would not have had Simplex derailleurs and a steel, cottered crankset. The majority of info points to an early '70s Grand Prix. Don't get wrapped up in a couple of anomalies. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to get an exact match with a catalogue bike, especially if it's from the boom period, when manufacturer's were making all kinds of substitutions, due to shortages.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by RobA on 5/14/2004 at 5:27:32 PM
Joe...here's an excerpt from an article by Tony Hadland:

"In the USA between 1970 and 1972, demand for lightweight ten-speed cycles increased forty-fold. Raleigh Record and Grand Prix models, based on Carlton designs, sold there in massive numbers. At one point they were being made in Nottingham, at Worksop (by Carlton), in the Netherlands by Gazelle, by Raleigh Ireland and possibly even in Malaysia."

This excerpt is from, "Raleigh in the Last Quarter of the 20th Century", a paper written in June 2000 for the 11th International Cycle History Conference.

Here's the link:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/'hadland/raleigh.htm#_Toc485366701 [...the symbol immediately preceding 'hadland' is a tilde, upper-case key on the left side of my keyboard below the 'Esc'key....we've had trouble before in this forum with this symbol ...:)]

So...probably it's going to be a Grand Prix made in the Netherlands by Gazelle...but I would heed T-Mar's words about trying for a perfect match...always there are anomalies....my Swedish-built MKB Crescent comes to mind ...just a basic bike boom bike... Huret derailleurs; Swedish version of the Ashtabula crank, ...but the forks are Reynolds 531 with Campagnolo dropouts (the rear dropouts are Huret)....and it all looks original... who knows why... a guy reached into the wrong bin, they ran out of the low end forks .... take a guess...:)

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by Joe on 5/15/2004 at 2:55:17 AM
Gazelle built is the most likely choice, but it does have a Raleigh headbadge. The headbadge is the brass heron type minus the 'Nottingham' script. If Raleigh was making Grand Prix's with wrap around seat stays, and they came out of Holland that way as well, I would think that the bikes made in Holland were decaled the same as those being branded as Gazelle. I have a Gazelle three speed, and it is decaled like the Raleigh, the decals are overtop of the black banded area. It's definitely a Raleigh, the question is just what model for certain.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by Donald Kirkbryde on 5/24/2004 at 11:29:50 AM
Re the gazelle/raleigh discussion i was given a union radonneur racer by someone and it had mafac brakes on it but the mechs were huret but the rear had been changed to a shimano the chainset was a cotterless one cant recall the name offhand and the bars and stem are alloy the fork ends were chromed.
I didnt think that it was worth keeping and only took it because it had weinmannalloy rims on shimano hubs and wanted the brakes and chainset and handlebars and stem i also retained the forks but binned the frame but didnt think it was of any special build.
I hope this info helps in this discussion

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Unknwon model Raleigh frame posted by Cogollo- on 6/15/2004 at 12:21:14 AM
I just bought a Gazelle manufactured Raleigh at the thrift store for $1.00. It's in great shape. It has the stickers on it that say it was "manufactured under license by Gazelle Rijwielfabriek Holland, a Raleigh company". It has all simplex drive train components and shifters, normandy hubs, wienmann brakes. Hope this helps

MISC:    friction shifters posted by: JONathan on 5/12/2004 at 10:43:00 PM
Will friction shifters make a comeback? That is what I think about as the well dries up on these great bikes from the bikeboom years. Friction shifters can always be made to work. Maybe they won't work great, but they will work. I get a bike with shift problems and if it's indexed, I ususally convert it to friction. Not to downgrade the virtues of indexing, I see it as a great thing, but for restorations and for general riding, the friction units have greater appeal, to me.
Some integrated shift/brake units require changing out the brake lever when it's working just dandy, but for a fouled up shifter that's sharing the same housing. Is it that friction is TOO simple? Well, it's simple from a mechanical perspective; operation is harder than with clickers. The internal geared systems are coming back strong. The "Nexus" comes to mind. I have yet to see any friction, or even the modular form of click shifters, reappear on MTB or road bikes. I guess it's the learning curve thing. Even internal-geared units operate in a discrete (as opposed to analog) manner, so it is kind of like indexed shifts.

   RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by Gralyn on 5/13/2004 at 2:25:04 AM
I suppose the friction shifters will always be strong among all the old lightweight fans. But, I believe they will some day be all but forgotten - replaced by more modern technology.

   RE:RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by JONathan on 5/13/2004 at 5:12:54 AM
That's exactly the point...they are "old". However, if they were put back in production, then they would be "new" again, except at much less expense and environmental issues. How about hydualic brakes? Are they better than cable actuated? I don't think so, but what do I know? Take the fixed-gear trend. That is definitely going to a more pure state. Unfortunately, they are difficult to operate for a novice, or even an experienced rider. Some MTB riders are using single speed setups! As a personal, selfish perspective, I like the idea of perfecting fine motor skills...I really think bicycling takes a lot of fine motor skills, which may be a large part of its appeal to me as a challenge. Every run is fun with the VLW's. You can shift real quiet with friction, too.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by JONathan on 5/13/2004 at 5:16:30 AM
I meant to say; "hydraulic". Sorry.

   RE:MISC: friction shifters posted by jack on 5/13/2004 at 8:04:33 AM
Only one of my bikes (Birdy folder) is new enough to have index shifting. The only thing I don't like about friction shifting is having to reach down to the downtube to change and adjust. I have installed either friction thumbshifters or bar-ends on my most ridden bikes. Gear changes and adjustments no longer require taking a hand off the bars.

    friction shifters posted by John E on 5/13/2004 at 2:51:08 PM
As far as I know, indexed barcons and downtube shift levers are still manufactured, as are twist-grips and perhaps even a few old school MTB thumb shifters. Almost all of these can be readily modified to function in friction mode.

I operate my only indexed system, the SunTour XC thumb shifter on my 1988 Schwinn mountain bike, in friction mode, having found no real advantage to indexing. I have those wonderful SunTour ratchet barcons on one Peugeot and have bought a second set on eBay for use on the other Peugeot.

   RE: friction shifters posted by marc on 5/13/2004 at 3:59:38 PM
by far the suntour barcon shifters, the all alloy model not the plastic, are my favorite shifters. They are just so easy to use, very responsive and they just look cool. I have one single shifter laying around and I'm looking for a matching one, anyone have a spare?

   RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by RobA on 5/13/2004 at 5:30:24 PM
Well...interesting stuff...I like friction shifters well enough, because of their simplicity...and probably because I am so used to them. Minor adjustment issues can usually be dealt with on the road with a bit of 'trimming'...and I usually avoid using the two extreme cogs for each chain ring...(I'm typically using a 6 or 7-speed FW). For Competitive cycling a well-designed, index system that's not worn and is properly set up is obviously far superior...but that's not the kind of cycling I'm doing, and I don't travel around with a pro bike mechanic ...and even under ideal conditions I don't like fussing with minor adjustments, let alone on a dark, rainy winter night...

Maybe I'm just being a retrogrouch...whether it's bikes or cars, I tend to like to be able to understand what's going on with a piece of equipment, and to be able to fix it myself...or at least know whether trying to fix it is a lost cause. Kind of difficult to do in this increasing complex enivronment....

As to the typical rider...I'm not sure they care... Heck, I've been in a bike shop, when a guy pushed in his bike, said he had a flat tire, was told they were too busy to do it right away, agreed to pick up the bike the next day, and even volunteered to prepay the $CDN12 charge.... All that 'turmoil' over a 15-minute repair job...it would drive me crazy to live like that!!!

   RE:RE: friction shifters posted by JONathan on 5/13/2004 at 5:50:44 PM
Thanks for the information. My only consideration about the bar-cons is when my knees clip the ends during navigation. Also, are they as tight shifting as DT-mounted shifters? The "joystick" operation is very solid in controlling the movement...better than using DT-shifters...especially in the cold weather. I used bar-cons my long ago Centurion while touring on rough roads in the Sierra at high elevation (7000Ft.). There is something about DT-mounted shifters which conjures up TDF images from years ago. They really look classic on a VLW, IMHO, of course. The different models have fine finishes and decorative touches that help to further distinguish what I see as a good part of that intangible look these fine, weathered craft exhibit.
Marc, I think I have a lone bar-con. You are welcome to it free. I can e-mail a pic, to be sure it is what matches your existing loner.
The topic got me looking. I found a few pairs. Funny how I ended up with one loose...hey, why throw stuff away?

   RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by T-Mar on 5/13/2004 at 9:20:58 PM
I don't foresee a resurgence of friction shifters. Today's society wants idiot-proof technology, with no learning curve. A properly set up index system provides that.

I also don't buy the complexity argument against index systems. Sure they are complex, but no more so than an internally geared hub, which is also an index system and which I know many of ride! In my experience, indexing goes out of adjustment no more than an internally geared hub.

In the end, those of us on this site are in the vast minority. For whatever reason; cost, simplicity, familiarity, classics appeal, etc., we favour the old equipment. However, technology marches forward and things will only get more complex. I hear Campagnolo is working on their version of MAVIC's old electronic shifting system. Get set to break out the multi-meters and soldering irons, and make sure you carry a spare, charged-up set of batteries or you'll be riding a single gear!

   RE:RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by Gralyn on 5/14/2004 at 2:40:57 PM
I have a question regarding indexed, or STI shifters.....the one's with the brake lever / shifter combo.....
What about the cost for these? I have at least one bike I would like to convert to this type of shifter - but what would I expect to pay? I'm thinking maybe you can find them for around $100? But, that's probably more that I have in the bike to begin with. I haven't seen any used ones....and no bikes are turning up in thrift stores with this technology (it will be at least 10 yrs until that happens). What would a decent set, reasonable quality - not top-of-the-line - cost on average?

   RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by RobA on 5/14/2004 at 6:01:59 PM
Gralyn...I think E-bay would give you a pretty good idea...but I would do your research first...from what I've heard these set-ups can get pretty fussy...everything has to be compatible... A bike buddy of mine commutes on a mid 70s Gitane TdF with early Campy Ergos matched to an old mid 70s Gipiemme rear der. (which I had traded with him for a NOS Simplex Criterium rear der.) ...by some happy coincidence this is a perfect match...I still don't fully understand why an analog device like an old derailleur can't match with any indexed system...but apparently it isn't that simple) Also, he tells that the Campy Ergos are far superior to Shimano STI ... well, I'm just passing this along...What do I know??? ...:)

   RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by RobA on 5/14/2004 at 7:04:21 PM
..as I think about it some more...the compatibility of a derailleur must be in the sweep as it travels from cog to cog. The indexing makes the cable move a precise amount and results in a precise set movement of the derailleur, in which I would think the length of the parallelogram arms will then set the amount of sweep for the amount of cable pull... so the specs. for the erailleur do then become critical...hmmm...I'm missing anything???

   RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by T-Mar on 5/14/2004 at 9:36:29 PM
Combination brake/shift levers run anywhere from $100 US to $400 US, depending on the make, model and numbers of gears. Back when Shimano first introduced the concept (1991) there was compatibility problems across different model lines. However, these days everything from a particular manufacturer is compatible provided they are designed for the same number of gears (i.e all Shimano 9 speed shifters work with all 9 speed derailleurs and all 9 speed cassettes). The cheapest set on the market are the Shimano, 8 speed, Sora levers. But you'll need a Shimano 8 speed derailleur and cassette.

I have road bicycles with both Campagnolo Ergopower and Shimano STI. Each system has it's advantges and drawbacks in their particular approach, but I find STI more natural, ergonomically. Camapgnolo's big advantge is that they can be rebuilt, should they fail, but they do have to be sent back to the distributor.

RobA is essentially correct in stating that the derailleur travel must be designed such that each shift produces a movement equivalent to the cog spacing. His friend had incredible luck to find a pre-index derailleur to match Ergo lever travel and his cog spacing.

   RE:RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by JONathan on 5/14/2004 at 10:29:05 PM
Don't forget the cables and housing. The non-compressable cable sheaths I believe are required to keep the travel at a specific value. Thsi is another reason to stay friction...the "Alivio" is about 25$ for the rear STI controls. They are OK, but mine are acting up a bit after only a few hundred miles.
Running a Giabt "nutra" x-bike. The front STI is fine, but I really could do without the indexed front. I think the frictions are faster on upshifts, IMHO experiences. Can't beat the dT-frictions for front derailers...my opinion. The "Acera" series is a step down...about 12$, that's just for the mechanism.
The "Altus" series is even less. The brake control levers are quite nice, but they are for tourist bars or MTB's. This would be for a 7-speed rear. The 8's and mega-9's are going to go up thgere in the prices. Who needs more than 21 speeds? I can barely keep track of 14. Then there is the special chains, cogs, etc. Gettin' out of the VLW arena with all that stuff. But...these VLW's are adaptable for sure. I see adds for guys looking for lugged chromo road bike frames only. Probably fixies or 27 gears candidates, they don't say in the adds.
Good luck, I played around some with STI and SIS, you'll get it to work, if I can.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by JONathan on 5/14/2004 at 10:54:50 PM
The special SIS non-compressable housings are for the shifters ONLY. The brake cable housings are the spiral steel for strength. Sheldon Brown's article is a great one on this topic. What possible gain is there to be had by combining the brake controls and shifters onto a common base. They operate independently,...hopefully and...I'm not retro-stuck, if that's what sells, but academically speaking; is there an advantage to combining the two totally separate functional components into a single platform?
Oh, maybe for racing?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by Derek Coghill on 5/16/2004 at 11:29:23 PM
The combination levers, in their various forms, seem quite nice to use. Most of the road bikes that we sell now have them fitted, with the exception of triathlon models and some Dawes (Daweses?) that have bar-end levers. Shimano is by far the most common, but some crop up with Campagnolo variants (Giant OCR Zero, for example). I'll qualify the comments about "nice to use"; this is when riding with hands on top of brake levers. I haven't ridden any distance on the drops. We (the workshop staff) have stumbled across a couple of second-hand sets, more by good fortune than judgement; one set was annexed by a mechanic who'd fallen off and broken his lever, the other's still kicking about somewhere. I don't have anything modern enough for them!

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:    friction shifters posted by Emmanuel on 6/11/2004 at 4:08:27 AM
the brake/shifter combo comes very useful when doing hardcore training. when I do technical ride, where there are combinations of flats and ascents/descents, shifting on the downtube disrupts my cadence - and it's diffuclt to shift when travelling at 25 mph holding the bar with one hand... - that's just my 3 cents worth

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Lightweight ID posted by: Chuck on 5/12/2004 at 1:31:14 PM
I recently inherited what I believe is a japanese made Schwinn.
It is/was painted red fading into white.
It has "striped" Schwinn decals on the seat tube and fork, but no decals on the top tube. They could be worn off.
It has the 4 digit number in the badge which is a Schwinn Chicago Badge.
The number is 2117 (july 30 1987?)
The frame tubes are Columbus Tenax Chromoly
The seat stays and chainstays are chromed on the ends
There is also a number stamped on the bottom of the bottom bracket (c 732611)
It has braze-ons for downtube shifters and bottle cage
The shifters and deraillers are Shimano 600
The brakes and levers are Shimano 600 The levers are "Aero" levers. The cables
exit the housing at the base and are wrapped to the handle bar.
The rear brake cable goes thru the top tube. It enters on the right front and exits on the left rear.
The crank set is Sakae SP
The hubs are "Joytech 90" with wolber rims.
Can anyone help me figure out what I have here

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Lightweight ID posted by Kevin K on 5/12/2004 at 8:17:01 PM
Hi Chuck. Sounds like a Traveler. cool.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Front Derailleur Hanger posted by: Zach on 5/12/2004 at 4:43:05 AM
Hi Everyone,
I recently bought a frame that has a front derailleur hanger. The hanger resemles a tab that is brazed on to the the side of the seat tube it also has slot that runs parallel to the seat tube at the end of the tab. Does anyone know what kind of derailleur would go on this hanger or also what year people did this sort of thing to bikes?
The lugs on this frame have a curving arrow stamped into them does anyone know what this means?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Front Derailleur Hanger posted by T-Mar on 5/12/2004 at 12:49:06 PM
The brazed-on front fitting started appearing on high end road bicycles after Campagnolo introduced a compatible derailleur for 1983. Thereafter, it quickly filtered down through the bicycle line-ups as the component manufacturure's made front derailleurs available with this option.

However, the concept may extend back to late '70s. I vaguely recall seeing Klein ads in the late '70s, initially without, and later with a fitting. It may have been their solution to getting a front derailleur to properly fit their oversize seat tube. However, that would require the backing of a component manufacturer to produce appropriate derailleurs and Klien would not seem to have been big enough to have that clout. It can be dangerous to act solely on one's memory, as it's easy to confuse dates and distort facts, so this may or may not be true. Regardless, the concept really took off with Campagnolo's introduction of a compatible derailleur.

Many of the early frames had failures in the area of the fitting. This was one of the reasons for Columbus' introduction of SLX/SPX tubing for 1984. The splines, besides providing other benefits, provided extra material in area of the fitting, to withstand the brazing operation.

All the component manufacturers had/have mid and high front derailleurs available with this option. While many of today's high end bicycles have reverted to clamps due to the use of thin walled, oversize tubes, most front derailleurs are designed to work with either clamps or brazed-on fittings. Essentially, the modern mid and high end front derailleurs are brazed-on versions that have a clamp with an interface that is styled like the braze-on fitting. Your LBS can provide a new derailleur and you should have little difficulty in finding a used model, should you decide to go that route.

I have no knowledge of the lug markings that you describe.

     Front Derailleur Hanger posted by John E on 5/12/2004 at 2:35:21 PM
T-Mar is spot-on, but fans of 1950s and early 1960s bicycles will recall a somewhat larger and heavier seat tube braze-on mount for the Simplex Competition "suicide" shifter. A Varsinental with one of these is a collectible.

   RE:  Front Derailleur Hanger posted by Derek Coghill on 5/12/2004 at 9:54:25 PM
Are the arrows on the BB shell? Might they indicate thread direction? Just a thought.

   RE:RE:  Front Derailleur Hanger posted by Zach on 5/13/2004 at 3:42:21 AM
Thanks for all of the great replies. The arrows are on all of the lugs so I do not think that they relate to thread direction. The frame claims to be a Moser but a combination of spray painted stenciled logos and stickers has me doubting. The frame is really light with campy dropouts and delicate braze ons so it seems to be nice. I am just trying to verify its make and vintage.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Front Derailleur Hanger posted by T-Mar on 5/13/2004 at 1:50:52 PM
A further clue may be the dropout spacing. Eight speed hubsets were introduced by Shimano in 1989 and Campagnolo in 1991. Frames with these components require a wider dropout spacing of 130mm, as opposed to the 126mm for seven speed. Please note this is not definitive, as it is fairly easy to reset dropout spacing on a frame and depending on the level of frame and the group used, the exact year for the introduction of eight speed varied.

Are there any tubing decals on the frame? Did it at least come with a headset, and if so, what is the make and model? The answers may provide further clues as to the vintage.

Also, what is the serial number? Another one of the regulars has a Moser. He may be able to confirm a match with the serial number format, if it is unique.

AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by: Tim on 5/10/2004 at 3:05:10 PM
When I was in college in 1984 I bought a somewhat used Raleigh Record. It is in Team Raleigh Colors (Red, Yellow, and Black) and appears to have been produced in the late 70's or early 80's. I am trying to find out a little about the bike and have been unable to locate any information on the internet about it. On the top tube it says "Team Raleigh" in black letters bordered by yellow and white. On the down tube it says "Record" in black letters bordered in white. The seatpost tube says "Raleigh" in black letters bordered in yellow in a black band. The head tube has the Raleigh emblem riveted to the head tube with Nottingham England underneath.

I tried to look up the serial number (#NA8086358) but was unable to locate anything beginning with the letter "N".

It has cotter style three piece cranks, Raleigh derailers (front and rear) rear has "Thiret?" on it, Norman hubs, Rigida chrolux 27"x 1 ¼" wheels with 36 spokes front and rear, "GB" forged neck, aluminum alloy bars, Raleigh 750 series Weinmann centerpull brakes, Christophe Toe Clips and Straps, and a Selle Royal leather saddle. I don't think anything has been altered on the bike since it was new but I'm not sure. I bought the bike in the fall of 1984 and nothing has been changed since.

The reason I'm trying to check this out is because I had thought about trying to restore it to it's original luster, but didn't know if it was worth the time or money.

If anyone could provide me with some info it would be greatly appreciated.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by JONathan on 5/10/2004 at 5:07:23 PM
Sounds interesting. I have a RRA from 1977 with stickers that describe their team winning. The steel on mine is 2030, not the 531 as on the earlier RRA's. They made the RRA's with heavy steel during the bike-boom.
Yours could be a special edition version. Check the Retro-Raleigh site for pictures.
The "Team" "Record" may be a tribute of sorts, I guess. The Huret sounds definite '70's...maybe early, but I'm guessing mid to late '70's based on the racing history and it's reflections on the products marketed.
I'd fix it up, just for fun. They ride fine, even by today's standards, with alloy wheels in place of those baot anchor Rigidas. You may also have struck on a limited edition model, always a great find. Any stickers for tubing type? The Rigidas and Huret combo would point me toward thinking it 2030 steel. Heft it and see if it hits about 35 pounds, that would be about like mine with the 2030.
Good luck, JONathan

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by P.C. Kohler on 5/10/2004 at 6:34:36 PM
Judging from the serial number, your bike was manufactured at Nottingham, England, in January 1978. This was right after the Raleigh TdF victory.

Your machine is a Raleigh stock "Record", 2030 steel, and the entry model of their "lightweight" range. A good, solid 1970s bike boom warhorse but nothing in the league of the real Team Raleigh replicas which were made at Worksop (Carlton) and I think later at Ilkeston and representing the pinnacle of British made lightweights. These were Raleigh Pros but with all of the team designated components and of course the racing livery.

P.C. Kohler

     Older Team Raleigh Record posted by John E on 5/10/2004 at 7:26:26 PM
The Record of the 1970s was Raleigh's base 10-speed and its answer to the Peugeot UO-8, the Steyr Clubman / Puch Bergmeister, and the (heavier) Schwinn Continental. I would rather have one of those than some of today's entry-level junk.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by RobA on 5/10/2004 at 11:35:51 PM
Gee...I saw two fairly good looking Raleigh Records during my annual 'curb-diving' expedition this weekend to one of the Vancouver suburban municipalities....one was, I think, the 'male' version; the other a mixte...at time I literally had no more room (unless, of course, it was something really good, then I would have dropped off a previous one)...but it kind of broke my heart to think they would be likely heading for the dump...so pretty looking, that nice white with blue...and solid ...both appeared to be fairly well looked after.... I don't think the actually pickup day is until later in the week...one of them, the mixte, I remember exactly where it is, in a narrow back lane, just off a distinctive intersection, the other I would never be able to find again... Maybe I'll scoot out there and nab that mixte...:)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by RobA on 5/10/2004 at 11:42:39 PM
I intended to add that the 'curb-diving' expedition was in the context of that municipality's annual spring cleanup weeks....for those who care...the municipality is Surrey...The actual pick-up days are Wed and Thurs....so there is likely still some time...I'm pretty well done and as in past years it was successful...I'll report on what I found later...including what will likely prove to be my lifetime find....(Columbus SLX tubing...Campy equipped...extra tubular wheels...Campy Record hubs)....more later...

   RE:  Older Team Raleigh Record posted by JONathan on 5/10/2004 at 11:45:02 PM
I just weighed a 1970 "Record" free of any racks and lights, etc. It comes in at 30.5 pounds...not bad for the steel Rigida "chromlux" rims. Wright leather saddle abd alloy bars. The steel Huret has been replaced with a SunTour "V" on the rear. This is lighter, but other than that, the bike is stock equipped. They are definitely a ruggedized unit, by today's standards, IMHO. I was a bit taken aback by the weight factor, low as it is. They are right between the UO-8's (27#) and Schwinn "varsity" and "Ccontinental". They can push 40#'s.
As a comparison, my '78 RRA (which is basically a "Record") with alloy hubs and rims, alloy TA triple cranks and Shimano "crane" rear der.; in addition to a frnt rack and pack and rear rack with two Cannondale panniers is about the same weight. The alloy stuff really works wonders on the weight reduction. I can't recommend it as a heavy touring bike, as it waffles a bit with a full up load of gear. The frame is great for short tours and everyday rides. The only vintage that could handle the heavy touring loads would be my Bottechia (60's) frame.
But, the "record" is very comfortable as a rider. The flex is nice at normal loads. I am working up a undated white and orange with black trim "record" as a long term. It was completely devoid of any serviceable (even salvageable components), but the frame is rock solid still. O'd guess it's a late '60's from the Retro-Raleigh site catalogs. I was in a similar boat as you, so to speak. I decided to go with alloy components and make it a spiffed runner with a vintage frame. It will be real solid when I get done. The paint and decals are still holding up, too. The brazing looks better than the later versions in my stable. I'm a real big sucker for the vintage Raleighs. I never pass on one.
We have a '60's "Sports" that is going strong even with the lady's frame. They are like a "revord" only a bit tougher built. The "Sprites" are the other direction. Our '76 2-speed lady's frame "Sprite" with fenders and steel rims comes in at 32#'s. That's with steel brakes and bars! I don't know why it doesn't get more time, but I ain't the rider.
Nice going on that "team". You done good to pick it up.
BTW, those long down-tube Huret shifters look cool.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by Tim on 5/11/2004 at 1:35:26 AM
Boy, I didn't expect this kind of response so soon. Thanks for all the information. I think I may have spent about a hundred bucks for the bike when I bought it in '84 and I guess it may still be worth that or more. If you guys have any information on what you've seen these types of bikes selling for let me know. I've got a new MTB on order and it should be here any time. It's a Trek Y26 full suspension, (it really sucks to get older) and I look forward to spending somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 plus miles per week between the two.

Thanks again for all the information.


   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by marc on 5/11/2004 at 6:31:41 AM
It's hard to put a value on it I think, after all it is just a record (not to knock the record) which was an entry level bike, but still a decent ride, I love my record Ltd. I dont know how rare they are, esentially their value would be in the paint scheme and scarcity. I've seen a few, not alot around chicago. I think they only made them one year, like the Ltd. You could always put it up on ebay with an outrageous reserve and see if it draws any interest.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by RobA on 5/11/2004 at 5:05:22 PM
Thanks guys for getting me enthused...I went out last night and snagged that Raleigh Record mixte...it was still there, although it was less perfect than I had remembered...the back wheel is mangled and the derailleur cage bent...but that isn't too much of a problem. The frame is looks quite good only a few minor scratches...it looks like it's from the late 70s...Raleigh-branded SunTour rear der. (non alloy) and a Compe or Compe-V front der., cp brakes...no rust. The bike looks hardly used...I guess it was stored inside after the event that mangled the wheel, probably many years ago...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Older Team Raleigh Record posted by Nick on 11/12/2006 at 3:11:31 PM
Hi Guys,

I have just bought a Raleigh 753 ti team bike in red,yellow and black team colours. It needs some restoration to the paint work. It has transfers on the chainstays stating "special products division Ilkeston England" and has the following numbers stamped on the bottom Bracket SB1108, 59 (SIZE I THINK) and H161 on the other side. It has campag gransport deraillers, weinman carrera calipers and lever, campag large flange hubs, mavic bars and 3ttt stem, brooks proffesional saddle stamped with campagnolo and a campagnolo flutes seat post. Does anyone know anything about these bikes?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1980's vintage Manta bicycle posted by: mike stone on 5/10/2004 at 2:44:33 PM
Hi Guys.

I junk picked what seems to be a nice bike today - a Manta bicycle.

Does anybody know anything about Manta? Looks pretty nice. Lightweight frame. Shimano 500 brakes. Aluminum rims. Didn't have time to check the details as I was on my bicycle commute to work.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1980's vintage Manta bicycle posted by michael on 6/3/2004 at 8:45:54 PM
hey, i happen to have just bought a manta as a fixed gear and am very happy with it, however i don't know much about the brand name. Is it junk??

MISC:   The Graetest Compliment posted by: Bryant on 5/10/2004 at 10:52:50 AM
Picked up my son from IU at Bloomington the other day and was paid the greatest compliment from his girlfriend. During Spring break I had given her a Nishiki Mixte 18 speed I had fixed up because she would be living off-campus next year. When I asked her how she liked her bike, her face lit up and she said she loved it. She said it made her so happy just to get on it and ride. She is going to learn some Italian Arias so she can sing them when she rides again. I asked and she said No she never saw the movie "Breaking Away". I guess thats just what you do in Indiana.

   RE:MISC:   The Graetest Compliment posted by JONathan on 5/10/2004 at 4:41:10 PM
Real nice, Rob. Hey, I been extolling the virtues of the mixtes, but until someone actually rides one (that's been set up right, as you obviously took the pains to do) a;; my talk falls on deaf ears. A lot seems to center upon what is familiar to the person, either in their experience or in their perceptions of a bicycle.
I wonder why the racers don't use mixtes. They have low cg's, accelerate fast and they are comfortable. Maybe the front end handles a little soft for racing environments...I can't say, as I've never raced in any large organized events. I picked up mixtes, right and left up 'till about a year ago. Then they have dropped off the radar, so to speak. At first, they were good sources for parts until I realized that there is no sense in taking down a near perfect VLW. So I fixed a couple up and one is a rider (Peugeot UE-8) and another I kept just in case someone gets smart and selects it as a ride. I have, however, seen a greater number on the road...riding everyday, I see trends developing in the ridership. The mixtes are back!
"Breaking Away", that was funny. To me, the mixtes are the funkiest rides out there. Very cool bikes. Excellent call, you made there. The best one I have is a Motobecane "gran Tourer" with Vitus steel.

   Oops! Bryant...not Rob posted by JONathan on 5/10/2004 at 4:47:34 PM
Forgive the error in names, Bryant. Sorry, Rob. It's not hard to read the name next to the post! I still mess up.

   mixte pricing posted by John E on 5/10/2004 at 7:29:29 PM
Mixtes are getting discovered on eBay. The last time I looked, a ca. 1980 Peugeot Carbolite model had been bid up over $200.

AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by: Kevin K on 5/10/2004 at 1:40:35 AM
Hi. A second find this past weekend was an Applo Gran Tour by Fred Deeley Cycles of Vancouver, BC. Pearl Yellow. Bought new July, 1974 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Very original. I bought it for the unusual Araya 27" alloy wheelset but the bike is so nice I doubt I'll part it. Usual Suntour / Dia Compe pieces of that era. The bike had all of the original papers included in the sale. Everything was documented Fuji. Did Fuji make bikes for private sale ? Or what's the story on the bike? Thanks, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by T-Mar on 5/10/2004 at 12:34:03 PM
Apollo was probably the second best selling Japanese brand in Canada during the '70s bicycle boom. I worked in a shop that carried Apollo during that period. While I don't recall any connection with Fuji, it certainly is possible. I'd be interested in seeing the documentation.

Our shop only carried three Apollo lightweight models, though there may have been more. Of the three, the Gran Tour was the top model. It sold for about $200 CDN in about 1974-1975. I recall it being a very nice bicycle and only had one complaint, the mushy brakes. Being replicas of the venerable Weinmann centre-pulls, I could never understand this traitof the Dia-Compe. In retrospect, I suspect Deeley had spec'd some lighter duty brake cables.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by RobA on 5/10/2004 at 5:59:37 PM
I concur with T-Mar's comments...I have several nice Apollos...mid- 70's Gran Tour (in so-so condition); late 70's/early '80s Prestige XL (in excellent shape...just needs new bar tape); another one...a bit rusty I think... (I forget the model...early 80s Custom???) and a few others in reasonable shape (I think one might be another Prestige XL or maybe just Prestige)...Fred Deeley was in the bike and motorcycle business for years...He opened for business in Vancouver in 1914 (check out this eulogy for his son, Trev, who died at the age of 82 a couple of years ago:


Apollos came in a fairly wide product range...most are pretty basic...they are so common in Vancouver, except for the really nice ones, I usually ignore them....They were apparently (maybe not all...but the good ones) made by Kuwahara. On my Prestige XL on the left chain stay in gold/bronze lettering are the words, "Made (or maybe it's Built) by Kuwahara". The brand seems to have long since disappeared from the CDN market, but I understand the name is still alive in Australia...made by whom I don't know...Kuwahara???

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by T-Mar on 5/10/2004 at 8:33:43 PM
Rob, I find it very amusing that the Apollo has a "Kuwahara" decal on it. That means that two of Canada's largest bicycle distributors, Deeley and Shields, had competing brands of Apollo and Nishiki, that were made by the same Japanese factory! I always knew that most brands were established by distributors and that many were probably built by the same factory, but this struck real close to home for me.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by Kevin K on 5/10/2004 at 9:47:25 PM
Hi all. Well a buddy offered me a handsome profit on the Bianchi so.....SOLD! As for the Appolo. I needed the parts more than another bike. The wheelset will look great on a future Schwinn project. Thanks for the advice all. Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by T-Mar on 5/10/2004 at 11:47:38 PM
Please disregard my previous post on this subject. I confused Kawamura with Kuwahara. Can you develop dyslexia at an advanced age?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by RobA on 5/11/2004 at 12:21:25 AM
T-Mar...I always have to think twice when it comes to Kuwahara and Kawamura...I mix it up regularly...when I get real confused, I go look at the chain stay on the Apollo...:)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by Tom M on 5/11/2004 at 2:26:37 PM
I have not seen too many Fred Deeley bikes in the past here in Winnipeg I mean Winterpeg(expecting 5 to 10 inches of snow today). It is snowing heavy right now. I saw a Fred Deeley at the local Police auction. It was a mixte frame. It was hard to see as they pile the bikes close to each other. A few years ago I had a pre 20's ladies frame with the FD cut out in the chainwheel. The bike was very rough. A friend has it now and did a wonderfull restoration on it. I have pics if anyone wants to see it.
I recently picked up a CCM racer frame in mint green with the large diamond headbadge CCM is cut out, British BB, no holes for brakes, maybe a flip flop hub was on it. I have not seen another like it. Could be mid 50's. Can anyone help me out on this one.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by T-Mar on 5/11/2004 at 8:45:39 PM
A mid-'50s CCM should have an oval headbadge. The lack of holes in the brake brisge and crown implies that it used neither caliper brakes nor fenders. The remaining option is track bicycle. Does the rear wheel use a fork end (i.e. wheel slot faces the rear) as oppposed to a dropout?

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: SECOND FIND posted by Warren on 5/11/2004 at 10:54:31 PM
It's a CCM Racer or Flyer...pre-war as T-Mar says. They came with a clamp-on Philco brake on the rear stays. You need a minutes notice if you had to brake.

I have a few of these...I'd love to see pics. If you give me a serial number from the seattube lug I can tell you the year. I also have some catalogue scans.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by T-Mar on 5/11/2004 at 11:07:30 PM
I just went through a book on Canadian Cycling. The CCM Flyers from the 1920's and 1930's have the headbadge you describe. Given the period, the lack of holes for brakes or fenders is not surprising. Most racers were using a single, fixed gear on the road. Now if only you can find one of those early, period correct, CCM cotterless cranksets! Nice find! I'm jealous!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   SECOND FIND posted by Jana on 5/25/2004 at 8:45:08 PM
Hello all, I've found an old bicycle.....In the back alley in a shwanky neighbourhood in vancouver. Its a CCM Cadet apparently.....it has a silver oval decal on the frontwith a beaver on it. All the parts are CCM, and say made in Canada. Someone was throwing it away!! no handlebars, and no seat. Brought it to the local bike shop and they offered me 600 hundred for it. So I kept it, took the rust off, and put on some huge oldschool electra handlebars and seat. It looks as though it was burgundy with white pin stripes on it. It had white pedals but they were tattered. Its a woman's bike for sure, and quite large. It has a back pedal brake and a chain cover etc....and the tires we found to put on it were very large but I can't remember the exact inches. Looking to find what year it may be and possibly more. I do want to restore it as well. I'm riding it and its lovely. get lots of looks from the older folks.

AGE / VALUE:   identify this mystery raleigh posted by: marc on 5/10/2004 at 1:40:38 AM

Thats a link to the bike in question. There are no decals on the frame so I dont know the model. Here's the info I have on it. It has Zeus Cometicion (dont know if spelling is correct) drop outs. I thought only professionals had zeus dropouts, so is it a pro? But then as I said there are no decals on the frame but on the fork there are two Carlton triangle decals not reynolds. I have a super course with these decals so then is this a super course? But then what about the drop outs and the derailleur hanger?

It has a stronglight cotterless crank, I've seen this model before but I dont which one it is and there is no model designation on it. Can someone name it? is it original? It does appear that the white paint is original. Weren't there early pros from the 70's that were white? There is a serial number on the left rear drop out: 310947.

Thats about all I know about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I picked it up out of the classifieds along with a centurion ironman dave scott frame and a nice set of suntour edge? (I forgot) derailleurs that came from a an old trek and a set of wheels all for 50.00

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   identify this mystery raleigh posted by T-Mar on 5/11/2004 at 3:24:35 PM
I had hoped that one of the Raleigh experts would have replied by now, but since none have, I'll give it a try and see what the experts think.

The serial number implies 1973, and this decade is supported by the styles of the rear brake cable housing stops on the stays and top tubes. The integral brake hanger implies an upper level frame, as do the Carlton decals on the forks and the amount of chrome.

It would not appear to be a Professional, as during this period, this model did not have any stops for the rear brake cable and used distinctive fastback seat stays and sloping crown fork.

The crankset is a Stronglight 93 and the only 1973 Raleigh bicycle to use this crank was a Gran Sport. Notably, the Gran Sport was white with a blue head tube and seat tube panels. This would lead one to supect a Gran Sport frame, but the Gran Sport used a Simplex derailleur and would have required a Simplex dropout with a unthreaded, 9mm hole. The stem is correct, but the handlebars should be randonneur style. A leather saddle and tubular seat post would be correct.

A couple of other 1973 Raleigh models, the International and Competition sported similar frame layouts as the Gran Sport and used rear dropouts with threaded hangers. However, they used Campgnolo and TA cranks respectively and the dropouts were original spec'd as Camapgnolo and Huret. Both would have had leather saddles and the same stem as the Gran Sport, so ther's nothing conclusive there. The post was Camapgnolo on the International and tubular on the Competition. Both used standard drop bars, similar to your pic.

Besides the dropout hanger, the other distinguishing factor between the 3 frames are the lugs, which unfortunately are not distinguishable in your photo. The Gran Sport used a simple Pro lug. The International and Competition used more ornate Capella lugs, with the International's being chromed and slighlty less ornate. If you refer to the photos in the 1973 Raleigh catalogue on Retro-Raleigh, you see the difference.

The Gran Sport also used clincher tires, as opposed to tubulars on the International and Competition, but unless you had actual samples of the frames to measure and compare variations in parameters such as stay and fork clearance, you probably can't tell the differnce.

Any way you look at it, the dropouts appear to be substitutes, which was not unusual during the parts shortages of the '70s boom. Pending info on the lug details, the most likely candidate is a repainted Gran Sport and that Raleigh had a shortage of the Simplex derailleurs and substituted other dropouts. Alternately, it could be a Competition or International that that was repainted to match a Gran Sport replacement fork (assuming the fork is original based on the decals). Checking the lug style will help, but may not be definitive, as Raleigh may have substituted lugs too. I'd check inside the frame to see if there is any evidence of another colour. If there's evidence of black, it's a Competition and if there's champagne, it's an International.

Barring something conclusive with the lugs or residual paint, I'd assume it was a Gran Sport.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   identify this mystery raleigh posted by marc on 5/14/2004 at 11:36:33 AM
The lugs are definately the simple pro style lugs. I'm assuming this is a gran sport. Any idea what derailleurs they would have used on this model if they substituted the dropouts for zeus? I've got to go and try and find a inner chainring for the stronglight 93 crankset. I haven't decided what to do with this frame yet. I may restore it but for now I think I'm going to run some suntour superbe's on it. Does anyone have a dura ace front center pull caliper for trade or sale? I pulled a rear off of a junk bike but it didn't have the matching front.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   identify this mystery raleigh posted by T-Mar on 5/14/2004 at 10:02:24 PM
I got a NOS Stronglight ring, but unfortunately it's for a model 99, which uses a smaller bolt circle diameter.

The 1973 Raleigh catalogue does not state the gearing on the Gran Sport, other than a 14-28T on the back. However, the inner chainring must have been quite small because they spec'd the long cage Simplex Maxi derailleur. It doesn't look that small in the picture, but I can't see why they'd spec a Maxi, unless the gearing exceeeded the capacity of a Prestige.

Other large capacity, European derailleurs during this period would have been the Camapgnolo Gran Tourismo and long cage Huret Allvit. Though it's less likely, they may have even used a Japanese derailleur such as a SunTour GT or a Shimano Crane GS. If you're willing to compromise on the tooth differential of the chainrings, you could use standard cage derailleurs.

   Raleigh Competition posted by Larry on 5/22/2004 at 9:58:58 PM
I am finally getting a replacement for my 1973 Raleigh Competition! I used to ride alot and now I am old and fat and tired.

Dusting off the cobwebs, I am trying to remember the weight of this from the factory when I bought it new.

Does anyone have original factory information on this great bike?

BTW - I will check on the front center pull caliper.

I am going to replace it with a Mikado (from Canada) at '26#...Anyone with experience on these?

Thanks in advance.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   identify this mystery raleigh posted by Don Gillies on 6/14/2004 at 11:30:42 PM
Zeus dropouts implies either a 1960's raleigh competition or a gran sport. These dropouts were used on earlier models, e.g. 1967-1971.

Are you trying to make the identification needlessly hard ?? The most important things to photograph when identifying a raleigh are the (a) Seat Cluster, (b) Head tube & fork crown. Make sure to tell us if the fork crown has epaulets or whether the top if polished and flat.

If your bike is an older one you will be able to find the name "nervex" on the BB shell and a spacer may have been used on your bottom bracket.

The first instance of "Carlton, Race-Proved" decals that I have seen are on 1972 raleigh internationals (it was placed at the bottom bracket area).

I have seen a blue raleigh gransport with zeus dropouts and gears offered on ebay. It was a 1970 or 1971 i believe. I have also seen a blue/white raleigh competition (go figure) offered on ebay with all the parts the same as gransport, except for maes bars rather than randonneur.

In any event, it's probably a gransport or competition. This means 3 tubes 531 DB, with a 531 fork (rapid taper fork arms and 531 single butted steerer). The rear triangle is not 531 on this bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: identify this mystery raleigh posted by Donald Gillies on 1/16/2006 at 7:12:44 AM
I just got an original 1973 Gransport with stronglight crankset and chain protector (I'm assuming it 1973 because it has the bold decals and the oldest type of reynolds 531 decals.) Gearing was stronglight 93 42-52 and atom 14-28 5-speed. My bike was all-original except for tires and seat. The lugs are bocama pro (says '73' in front of the seatpost which is lug angle, not the bike year.) Dropouts are stamped dropouts on a Gran Sport. In some earlier years, dropouts were zeus. There is also a white & blue competition from 1970 or 1971/2 which has zeus dropouts, and looks like a gransport in every way, except for the color scheme and title on the top tube.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   1954 allegro special 10 speed 531 tubong posted by: steve aliperta on 5/10/2004 at 12:08:39 AM
If anyone knows anything about this race/road bike pls help.
I know the it is Swiss made, the frame is black the weight is 22.5 pounds? .Thanks for your help. Steve

    1954 allegro special 10 speed 531 tubong posted by John E on 5/10/2004 at 7:39:57 PM
Pre bike boom Allegros were well-respected and best known for their flamboyant paint jobs. ClassicRendezvous.com has very nice photos of two ca. 1960 Allegros, which look alot the Capos of the time, including the Weinmann centerpull brakes and Campag. Gran Sport derailleurs. Your biggest problem will be finding a replacement for the Swiss-threaded fixed cup in the BB.

MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by: JONathan on 5/9/2004 at 5:31:24 PM
I'm constructing (so to speak) a custom freewheel to use in the hills. I have a Shimano 5-speed with 15-17-24-28-34..yes, a 34T granny. In the front, I have a 52/38 setup. My question is one of reliability concern. The 24T cog is different from the other 4 cogs. It has teeth that are cocked a bit which I assumed was an attempt to smooth out the shifts. The others are regular shaped. The spacing is uniform between all cogs. The assembled unit looks real strange, as the big space from 17 to 24 is quite apparent and the odcog with cutouts and funny bent teeth really stands out. I'm trying out the Tourney long-cage (drilled) rear derailer that was on this VolsCycle I got last weekend. It can handle the range quite nicely; very similar to a "Crane" in capacity. I can get it going, no problem, but as I'm paranoid of chain breaks, I wondered if the "odd-cog-out" situation is going to do weird things to the chain as it works to deal with the different cog. This setup has appeal for my style of ride. That is to say, a masher style (low-end torque) on the flats and 2K steep climbs where my mass requires a goodly amount of low gearing to aid my cause.
This is like having two 5-speeds, with a scarifice of smooth gradient in gears. BTW, those Atom freewheels are really confusing in their construction. That's being nice about it, too. I had to get pretty bored to start playing with those units. I picked Shimano as the experimental candidate, as they are easy to work on and they have a lot of FW's in the mix. Thansks for any suggestions/comments, etc.

   RE:MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by Gralyn on 5/9/2004 at 9:26:01 PM
That's something I have wanted to do - but just haven't got around to - yet. I have lots of cogs - and would like to make my own custom ratios. I even have a couple old, big, skip-tooth cogs - which would be the equivalent of 36t. I have a couple 35's, too. I could make some wide steps, maybe a set-up of some close ratios, etc. And on the front - anything from 26 to 54.....well, not everything.

I suppose the older cogs are basically straight. Then, maybe early-to-mid 80's - the ones with the angled teeth - like the hyperglide, etc.

     Freewheel gearing posted by John E on 5/9/2004 at 11:17:51 PM
I see no problem with your setup, although the big jump can put undue stress on the chain if you load it heavily whilst shifting. Inspect your chain periodically to make sure all pins are protruding past the outer plates, and replace it as soon as it has stretched by 1/2 percent, i.e. 1/16" per 24 half-links.

Back when 10 speeds were common and gear ratios were at a premium, I favored grannie setups. I tried a 54-47 / 15-16-20-21-28, and my wife had a 52-42 / 16-18-21-24-32. Our SunTour derailleurs handled these setups without complaint.

I currently run a very large chainring drop on my mountain bike: 48-40-24 / 13-26, which works fine unless I try to force a 24-to-40 upshift under load.

   RE:  Freewheel gearing posted by JONathan on 5/10/2004 at 2:43:09 AM
I must say, it is an interesting sideline and it is a good way to make use of the dozens of loose FW's that I have that were accummulated as a result of wheel culling. I had so many steel wheels, so I kept only those that had excellent status; no nicks and good spokes. The others were reduced to basic elements of hub rim and spokes. Many hubs were super good shape alloys of various makes, but mostly Japanese.
The spokes were only good as spares and many I simply cut into wire for holding down sprinkler heads on my drip system. They work great.
The rims I sawed in half and straighten out for garden support structure stock, or what have you. The collection of freewheels is very eclectic it appears. Shimano, of course, SunTour; Atom; Regina; D.I.D.; SunRace; Meada (SunTour) and a few others. The SunTour "perfect" have great appeal. They are precision units and the ranges are impressive. The threads are different than Shimano by a slight amount and the slotted cogs on SunTours have four tabs (90 deg.) while Shimanos have 3 tabs (120 deg.). The Atoms and other all-threaded units are not worth vising up, IMHO. The Shimanos are real easy. There are three tooth types that I've discovered. One is the straight tooth with no angle to the tips. Second are the hollow ground angled tips and then there are the hyperglide cogs with special fluting on the cogs sides as well. You can bust down a few beat FW's just to get the shims, which will be fine for any spacing you might have to do. I just used a section of chain to determine spacing. Sort of, "If it looks good, it IS good" level of technical determinance. I worked up a few calculations as a start.


54-47 / 15-16-20-21-28

52-42 / 16-18-21-24-32

The first is my current experiment ratios. You can see that the lower range is spaced pretty tight. The upper end has a huge gap from 9th to 10th. This would be what I would thread on for a coast run, which is pretty much hills going and coming. The downhills will be easy enough with the 10th gear being the predominant choice. (th is academic.
The second and third are those John E. provided. You can see the much more uniform progression, with selective differences in the modules for low range lows. This appears to be a better application of gearing, IMHO. However, for a special application, I like the idea of having a somewhat dedicated unit for the specific requirements...at the cost of generalized efficiency.
Thanks for the advice about the chain, John E. That is advice that I will heed well. I hope to never break a chain again. I was lucky twice. Chains breaking are a definite crash, especially if it gets sucked into the rear axle or fornt wheel spokes. A good chain is my top priority. It's amazing how these Freewheels clean up with a fine wire wheel. They look NOS...some of them. The rest of the wheel was usually in poor shape.
Good luck with your custom work Gralyn. I like it better than fooling around with all the cosmetic stuff, although that sems to provide greater return for your efforts from casual observers.

   Freewheel gearing posted by John E on 5/10/2004 at 7:43:00 PM
If you like those gear spacings, JONathan, try 50-47 / 14-16-18-20-23-26, which I used on the Bianchi until I went to a 7-speed freewheel. For hill work, this half-step converts easily into an Alpine: 50-42 / 14-16-18-20-23-26. I am also pretty happy with the half-step I put on my UO-8 for commuting: 45-42 / 13-15-17-20-23-26.

   RE:MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by RobA on 5/11/2004 at 6:19:35 PM
This is interesting stuff...I've read a bit about this but it is complicated.... and depends on the kind of riding one does. Most of my riding is commuting. Typically I ride with a "standard" 52/42 front and a 14 to 30, sometimes 32, back. About a month ago I rode a 52/42 Miyata nine miles one way and exchanged the crank to 48/36 and rode back...it seemed effortless. I prefer to go as fast as I can, but the problem, of course, with commuting is all the stopping ans starting, maneouvering, safety concerns...I suppose that "efficiency" is what one wants...ie., quick accelerations, smooth gear shifts,... probably the longest clear run I have is maybe a kilometre...a long bridge with an uphill ramp...I look forward to that...though so do the cars and a lot of them are whizzing by maybe 20 or 30 kph above the 50 kph speed limit!!!

My question is what sort of crankset/rear cluster configuration would be considered a commuter's dream setup???

   RE:RE:MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by JONathan on 5/12/2004 at 7:37:21 AM
here's my favorite commute gearing: 52/40---14--15--17--20--24--28

GEAR: 38.6---45---50.1----54---58.5---63.5---70.2---72---77.1---82.6---93.6---100.3
A close look at this setup, one might say thgere's a lot of back and forth shifting to get the progression. Well, they are probably running 21 speeds, so I'd ask the same question.
This is all friction, so it takes some getting used to the hardware. Everytime I do some maintenance, I have to dial it all over. After a few hundred shifts, I find I don't have to think.
I like the 100 as it really goes on the flats. I hardly use the low, if at all. Nice to have for ocassional hilly loops. You ar3e totally correct about the ype of riding. I can go flats (bay land trails, hills loop or expressway with this "Traveler". I see a lot of triples with tiny large chainrings and lots of small cogs...what's up with that?
The bigger chainrings are more efficient since they spin fewer revs to get the same push. Then, you have the cranks. I like 170's or 175's for climbs. Twelve speeds keep the chainlines tight and Q-angles optimal, IMHO. Except for hill climbs, I can't see the logic in higher spinning. You come up on a guy spinning at 80-90 and you're at 60-70 going the same speed! My legs weigh considerably more than the cranks and it is revolving mass, so there's a lot of energy lost, IMHO. What's cool is to groove along in the 52/14 not looking back...and it a chro-mo '80 Schwinn "traveler"!
This setup about covers the range, but it is best in the 15-17-20 cogs where you have the best efficiency of chain movement, iMHO.
That's my 2.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by JONathan on 5/12/2004 at 7:48:22 AM
Forgot the derailer is SunTour's "Ar", which is an excellent shifting derailer. Never balks or grinds-to-find and it has lasted longer than any derailer I've had with similar miles on it.
I think simple is better. It's a rather unimposing looking mechanism, but it is precision built, to be sure. They won't build 'em like that again.

   recommended commuter gearing posted by John E on 5/12/2004 at 2:43:32 PM
JONathan advocates a 40-100 gear-inch range, which was standard on the basic 10-speeds of the bike boom era. His addition of the 15T cog takes care of the huge gap on top of the very common Alpine setup of 52-40 (or 52-39) / 14-17-20-24-28.

I like my 12-speed half-step 45-42 / 13-15-17-20-23-26, but some folks may want a higher high and/or a lower low. My other Peugeot has an 18-speed half-step-plus-Grannie progression of 48-45-34 / 13-15-17-19-21-23, which gives me 40-100 gearing with crisp-shifting road racing derailleurs: a short-cage SunTour Cyclone rear and a Shimano 600 front.

   RE:MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by RobA on 5/12/2004 at 6:17:39 PM
JONathan and John E...thanks...my education is furthered a bit more...after reading the last two posts I made a gear inch chart for the bike I'm mainly commuting on ...my fav...the circa 1983 Norco Triathlon (aka Nishiki ...with Tange Mangaloy tubing/Cyclone M-II ders (long cage)/Sugino GT crankset/ New Winner freewheel)....here's the configuration... 52/40 with 13/15/17/20/23/26.... that would be an Alpine setup...right??? I hadn't remembered that the small ring was a 40, ...a 41.54 low, which explains the relative ease getting up the three very short, very steep hills I encounter...all the other hills don't require the 40/26 option...

   RE:RE:MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by Derek Coghill on 5/12/2004 at 9:59:02 PM
My Motobécane 10-speed has 16-17-18-19-20 on the back and half-step front rings (as yet uncounted). It's easy to keep the pedals spinning.

   RE:MISC:   Freewheel gearing posted by RobA on 5/12/2004 at 11:38:47 PM
I don't know if someone has already mentioned this gear calculator in Sheldon Brown's site:


It's terrific and gives you lots of options...gear inches/development/ speed at "x" rpm and in kph and mph...

One another page: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sliderule.html ...there is even an explanation on how to make comparisons with a slide rule...finally a use for one of the half dozen or so old 'slipsticks' gathering dust in a corner of the basement...:)

Bright guy, that Sheldon...

      Freewheel gearing posted by John E on 5/13/2004 at 2:56:30 PM
Microsoft Excel or an equivalent spreadsheet application is another convenient vehicle for gear chart generation. Sheldon raises the very relevant points that we should care about percentage development from gear to gear and that we should are about tyre outer diameter and crank length as well as gear ratio. This is why he likes to talk about "gain ratios."

AGE / VALUE:   GARAGE SALE FIND posted by: Kevin K on 5/8/2004 at 7:58:57 PM
Hi all. On the way into town today I saw a bike sitting out for sale at a garage sale. I thought I'll stop just to see what it is. It is a flawless Bianchi Alfana in Violet/Gray with a full Shimano 105 group on it. The girl selling it said she paid about $600 and never road it. Not one mark on the bike. No scuffs, no scratches. Nothing. Tires aren't even dirty. $40. I'm very happy. Yahoo! Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   GARAGE SALE FIND posted by marc on 5/8/2004 at 9:56:47 PM
sounds like the bianchi brava I picked up at the thrift store a week ago. In brand new condition, suntour sprint, rest ofmega. It's spring and the bianchis are in bloom, go get one!!!

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   GARAGE SALE FIND posted by Gralyn on 5/9/2004 at 1:22:05 AM
I was out riding my Bianchi early this morning. I saw a few garage sales....but no Bianchi's. No bikes at all for that matter.....but I'm always looking!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   GARAGE SALE FIND posted by Bryant on 5/10/2004 at 11:08:04 AM
I have to move to where you live. Murrays and Huffys are all you find here at garage sales. I was real lucky last week and picked up 2 Schwinn World Sports but that was an extraordinary day. I would faint if I ever saw any bike with 105 components at a garage sale here, let alone a Bianchi.