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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   suntour superbe pro posted by: marc on 5/7/2004 at 10:28:44 PM
I just picked up a suntour superbe pro rear derailleur for 5.50 It was definately a good deal. The date code is ZD, according to vintage-trek.com this makes it a 1983 model. Does anyone have the specs for this model? Is it meant for a 6 cog cassette? is it friction only or is it indexed? what's its range? thanks

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   suntour superbe pro posted by T-Mar on 5/9/2004 at 4:26:29 PM
The 1983 Superbe Pro was SunTour's top of the line racing derailleur and accommodated a standard 6 speed or narrow 7 speed (i.e. 126mm dropout spacing). Capacity was 26T with a 23T maximum cog size. Being per-Accushift, it was designed for friction based shifters, though SunTour had just introduced a Syncro-Shift lever that automatically adjusted for the compensation of the overshift that is required on friction based sytems.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   suntour superbe pro posted by T-Mar on 5/9/2004 at 4:31:57 PM
Oops, I meant "pre-AccuShift", as opposed to "per-Accushift".

MISC:   First generation Campy Crankset posted by: Tom on 5/7/2004 at 8:39:07 PM
I saw an auction on ebay for a "first generation Campagnolo crankset". The crankset was in average at best condition and going for over $300.00. I'm really not into old campy stuff, but I was really shocked because I recognized the crankset as the same one I have had sitting in a box since I bought it used in the early 70's! Mine is like new though! Someone educate me on what "first generation" refers to please.

   RE:MISC:   First generation Campy Crankset posted by Plavery on 5/8/2004 at 12:54:43 AM
Ebay also has an Ideale Model 72 saddle that was bid up
to $515 the last time I checked. Too rich for my blood and
sanity !

   RE:MISC:   First generation Campy Crankset posted by John S on 5/8/2004 at 4:08:07 AM
1st generation means the first issue of the aluminum crankset by Campy. It is distinguished by arms that are blocky/squarish by comparison to later issues and also by lack of "webbing" or material where the arm connects to the spider, again compared to later issues. Lastly, it would have a 151mm bolt circle compared to 144mm of later issues. I think there is a campy-only website that may have pictures. It's subtle details that distinguish the $50 crank from the $500 one.

   RE:RE:MISC:   First generation Campy Crankset posted by Mark-O-Beast on 5/9/2004 at 9:13:07 AM
Ideal 72? $515?
I have one of those...in used condition...would only ask $25 at most for it.
I have to guess the $515 is brand spankin' NOS....just a guess...if not...well!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bottecchia and Brigitte posted by: RobA on 5/7/2004 at 5:03:15 PM
Further to Gralyn's post below...my Bottecchia is buried deep in a pile of bikes, I was able to see it but not well enough to check whether it has a "cable hole" on the downtube...same with the rims...I could see the writing but not read it...I'll try to pull the bike out of the pile over the weekend...I noticed the headtube lugs were chromed and actually kind of heavy looking...

While were talking 'Italian'... I picked up (curb diving) an obvious bike boom product with the unlikely name of "Brigitte" (I think that was the spelling...no "d". The model name was Professional(e)? this was faded, but it seemed like the English spelling...foil decals...Universal brakes, low-end Campy shifters and front and rear derailleurs; cottered steel cranks with the name "Coppi" on the arms (I assume that is the model name, not the brand.) Gnutti hi-flange alloy hubs/skewers; steel rims with no name that I could find. And something I hadn't seen before...both tire tubes had metal caps, marked "Made in Italy" and the letter "B" inside a diamond outline. The stems looked be "Schrader-size", but fully threaded and with a finger nut like the Presta valves....Is this going to be a problem getting air into?

The bike is not light, but not too heavy either...it looks to have been lightly used....it has a shop sticker for a local bike store that is still in business... Does anyone know about these bikes?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bottecchia and Brigitte posted by T-Mar on 5/7/2004 at 8:34:33 PM
The tube valve sounds like the old Woods (a.k.a. Dunlop) valve. If so, you can use a presta pump. The finger nut is actually a retainer for the valve core.

I haven't heard of the Brigitte brand name before, but your previous ATB post on the Norco Bush Pilot rekindled some memories. I rode one in the mid'80s, before I upgraded to a GT Karakoram in 1988 and started my off-road racing phase.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Bottecchia and Brigitte posted by Gralyn on 5/8/2004 at 3:00:07 AM
I believe my Bottecchia's wheels have the valve stems as described here. They were certainly not like the usual presta valves on all my other wheels (I can never keep it straight - which one is the small, skinny valve - and which is the fat one .....Schrader, or Presta....)
Anyway, these are the small, skinny ones - and they have a cap that screws off. Then, you pump them up.....and when you put the cap back on - the cap has a small guide sleve that goes over the small stem inside. Different from anything I had seen before!

AGE / VALUE:   Update on the le tour and brava posted by: marc on 5/7/2004 at 4:32:20 PM
I started working on the full cro mo le tour I picked up at the flea market a few weeks back. I cleaned it up and it looks great. It really seems to be a quality bike. I repacked the headset and was surprised that it had bearing holders and not loose balls. Is this the case with schwinns from the 80's? I knew the entire frame was cro mo but I wasn't sure about the fork. When I repacked the headset I noticed the steering tube was stamped tange so that was a pleasant surprise. I also noticed that the brakes are the recessed allen bolt type. Is there any performance diference between these and the regular bolt on sidepulls?

I took the bianchi brava down to cirque and took it on one of the 32 mile rides. It handled great. The suntour sprint derailleurs shift very smoothly. The only problem was the stock sellaitalia saddle which was definately not comfortable. I changed it yesterday, I had a nice NOS leather avocet touring saddle I've been dying to use on something and it is quite comfy. I thought about trying to trade it or sell the brava down at cirque but there was nothing that really interested me, at least nothing on the same level as it. For instance, there was a nice colnago for 500.00 and I'm sure the gentleman wouldn't trade the brava for it. I was looking for a raleigh professional, competition or international but the only one I saw for sale (at least complete and not a fram) was sold by the time I got to it. I don't know why I passed on it but I regret it now, but someone had a rudge clubman frame,fork,headset,bars, and cranks for $50 Why didn't I buy it? becasue I'm an idiot.

I think the letour will be going for a ride today and I'll let you know how it goes.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Alex Singer posted by: Poguemahone! on 5/7/2004 at 3:05:54 AM
It's been an interesting week. Started off with a Raleigh SuperCourse, moved on to an Austro Damlier and a Claud Butler, and wound up unexpectedly with a Singer. None of them mine, understand, but old bikes are always a pleasure. The topper was the Singer.

I teach at a local arts center, and today an elderly woman followed me down the hall, saying "Sir! Sir!" Initially I thought she was talking to someone else, but she caught up with me and told me she had an old bike she'd like me to look at. Not uncommon, I fix 'em up all the time, I like 'em. She said she'd been around to the local bike shops and none of them knew anything about her bike. I asked her what it was. She told me it was a Singer.

When I had recollected my senses, I asked her where she had gotten it; her husband had had it built in France in the seventies. She asked if I could come out and look at it; she wants to sell it and needs to better know what's on it. Now I can likely spec the components fine, and I understand the Singers were often built with extra goodies, but I tend to accumulate bike knowledge as I run into specific models. A rather haphazzard matter of autodidactic education, perhaps, but it serves me just fine. For several obvious reasons, this is the first Singer I've run into. (1, I'm poor; 2, they're rare; and so on).

So, respecting the accumulated knowledge of this board and anxious to siphon some of it off, I'd like to ask if you've any info you'd like to share on these fine machines. I'd very much like to give this lady the best, most comprehensive info I can. So: is there anything specific I should look for? Can you accurately date these models and identify the individual frame builders (it's my understanding two brothers built most of these; correct me if I'm wrong).

As always, thanks to all of you.

      Alex Singer posted by John E on 5/7/2004 at 3:42:39 PM
I would defer Alex Singer questions to Jim Cunningham (jim@cyclart.com), who owns and rides a beautiful 64cm Alex Singer road touring bike (http://www.cyclart.com/rpeople.html).

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Alex Singer posted by RobA on 5/7/2004 at 6:06:11 PM
Wow...can you give us more details on the components?...I have a book at home with articles on a number of French, English and Italian bike builders...I'm pretty sure Alex Singer was in there... I'll see what they say...if it looks useful I'll pass it on...

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Alex Singer posted by poguemahone! on 5/7/2004 at 8:58:36 PM
I am going to look at the bike on Monday (I hope). I'll post more on the components then, as I have not seen the bike yet and am thus unsure of the compnentry. John E, thank you for the suggestion; I will email Mr. Cunningham within a day or two of looking at the bike; I intend to photgraph it as well.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Alex Singer posted by John S on 5/8/2004 at 4:15:37 AM
A man named Jan Heine in Seattle knows much about Singer, has recently visited the factory. Puts out a zine called Vintage Bicycle Quarterly (see the website). Extensive article in his first issue about the Singer shop, etc. I would consider him as knowledgable as anyone might be in the states.

The basics: Alex Singer began making bikes in France in teh 30's or 40's, mostly cyclotouring models. These are still being made today in tiny quantities.

If this bike is 56cm -58cm, I'd have interest in purchasing it.

John S.

AGE / VALUE:   Batavus IC? posted by: Pete on 5/6/2004 at 8:43:57 PM
Guy down the block is selling an old beater at his garage sale. It says Batavus IC, and there is some other stuff I can't make out. Lugged frame, pretty light, but a tad small for me, and pretty beat up. I wouldn't give it another thought execpt it has a Pivo stem, Suntour Cyclone drive train bits, Sugino crank and get this, a Campy headset, BB, and Campy Tipo hubs. What on earth is a Batavus? Is it worth the $40 he's asking?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Batavus IC? posted by David on 5/6/2004 at 10:12:13 PM
Batavus is Dutch. Fairly common during 70s bike boom.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Batavus IC? posted by Warren on 5/7/2004 at 12:12:21 AM
They made a whole range of bikes up to professional models. The hubs are worth $40 if they are laced to a decent wheelset...jump!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Batavus IC? posted by Pete on 5/7/2004 at 7:10:59 PM
Thanks for the push Warren! I went over there before work this morning and I got it down to $25, then the guy started hemming and hawing about the Campy stuff, so I slapped the money is his hand and exited stage right.
It's a Batavus Champion with a fully chromed fork and crown and Tange dropouts, no other labels or marks except a little "Made in Holland" sticker in English. It's way too small for me, but my brother-in-law is short..... Campy pump pegs and cable guides, too. Any info would be appreciated.

AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by: Gralyn on 5/5/2004 at 1:13:37 PM
I had previously posted about the Bottecchia I recently acquired. I didn't start on it right away - because I was in the middle of restoring a Schwinn Passage - I wanted to finish that project before I started another one.

Now I have finally got to the Bottecchia: The front fork 1/2 chrome was rusted - and looked bad. Amazingly, it cleaned up pretty good. I was surprised. The paint didn't look that bad - but again, I was surprised at how well it looked after cleaning and polishing.

I thought that after I removed the components - I could determine from date codes, etc. - the approx. age. But, I have yet to find a date code, or any code on a component. The seat post had no markings, the saddle had no markings, the stem (which I feel is probably a replacement anyway) had no markings, the bars had no name, nor markings. The ders. had no date codes. I also suspect the crankset and bottom bracket is a replacement - but I'm not sure....but I couldn't find a date code on it either (Ofmega cranks, bottom bracket, and headset)....hmmm - it could be original.
The pedals are probably original - but no name or code on them either....they look a lot older.

Stamped drop-outs - with no der. hanger. The "Bottecchia" decals going down the down-tube and seat tube....they don't look like the decals I typically see on late 70's, early 80's bikes. They don't look just like a printed decal that you could just peel off.
There was one thing peculiar: On the down-tube....at the edge of the head tube lug - there is a hole. It kind of looks like a hole where a cable would route. But what cable could possibly route there? There are braze-ons at either end of the top tube (underneath) for the rear brake cable. It has down-tube, bolt-on shifters.....so, I don't know what that hole could be for.

The 28" wheels cleaned up - they were rusted, too (chrome). However, the hubs had no name or markings on them.

The fork, the chrome crown - kind of makes me think of early 70's.

And, the rear dropouts, and front dropouts have an eyelet for fender or racks.

I'll get some pictures of it.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by JONathan on 5/5/2004 at 6:16:59 PM
Check for a serial number across the back side of the seat-tube, just below the seat-post relief groove. That's where mine is located. Mine appears to have had the pump pegs removed. I'm glad for that as when I snapped a chain on a 12% grade my right leg ended up inside the main traingle with abrasion from the top-tube doing a number on my calf. Those pegs...I hate to think. This bike has unusual kharma for me. It's history with me is very interesting. Mine has the fender eyes, but I long-ago tossed the fenders. Not too bright, but I wasn't into vlw's per se. Mine has two chromed lugs on the head-tube. Carnielli stem and I assume bars are same. I have replaced the derailer with a Shimano "Crane" (deer head) long cage. Weinmann brakes are my addition working off what I assumed were OEM Altenburger levers. The cranks are cottered and the main is a 52. The crank has a triangle with parallel extensions perpendicular to the sides. Don't know what make. I repaced the BB with a Sugino S-5S spindle and cups. They are just right, but I will go cotterless next time around. There is capacious room under the forks and rear bridge. The Weinmanns can switch to 700C rims or 27's as are on it, now. I could even put 28's if desired, as the space between the stays is sufficient. Basically a handcrafted frame. There are braze-ons for the rear brake cable on the left side of the top-tube...again, a good position for those. There is a braze on rear derailer cable stop. The bike rides real stiff, but get it going to 20-30 and everything mellows. These were not beginner's bikes! You got me interested in making over mine. It is on the stand. No decals on mine, just a head badge. Maybe it was a repaint or possibly the decals came off. Tis steel does not rust! There was a bit of exposed steel under the cahin-stays...shiny as new. No rust anywhere except the chrome fork crown has a tiny bit that always polishes off. You will be surprised at the ride! This one of mine; this big 'ol dog, he still likes to hunt! Good luck. I can send a pic., if you want to see the geometry.

   RE: Bottechia drop-outs posted by JONathan on 5/5/2004 at 6:30:11 PM
Forgot this. The dropouts are heavier gauge steel, but they are not forged. They look thicker than a normal stamped steel dropout. Chrome everywhere back there. Half-chrome forks and stays with all chromed drop-outs! The lugs are tapered, but the eat lug looks ornate on the under side of the top-tube extension. It curls back a bit. Very interesting.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by T-Mar on 5/5/2004 at 6:36:05 PM
Gralyn, most likely it is early '70s. We know it's post 1968 based on the championship dates printed on the decals. It's also neither of the two top end models based on the stamped dropouts and cable stops. If you want to send me pics, I have a 1972 catalogue in my archives that I can compare it against.

I'm not suprised at the absence of date codes. During this period they were found primarily on high end Camapagnolo and Japanese equipment. Shimano was the major Japanese exception, not introducing dates codes until later, in 1976. Most European manufacturers started adding date codes only when forced to do so by legislation.

The down tube hole is very interesting. Is it on the top, bottom or side? How large is it? Are the inside edges of the hole coated with paint? The answer to the last question will indicate whether it was added at the factory, prior to painting, or later, most likely by the original owner.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by RobA on 5/5/2004 at 7:10:21 PM
Gralyn...I'll take a closer look at that Bottecchia I have...I figure it's early '70s...I'll check for the possible cable hole in the downtube...when you say 28" wheels, are they actually marked "28"?...I'll check mine as well...I haven't had that much luck on older stuff looking for date codes... I think the oldest I've seen (maybe in a photo) is PAT. 73 on a Nuovo Record der. ...I think the compoenet makers got serious with date codes starting in the mid '70s...I have no problem with Shimano (1976=A...) and SunTour (1984=A...going backwards to...I think I've seen an "O"...and for sure lots of "R"s, and forwards in alphabetic sequence...)...

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by RobA on 5/5/2004 at 7:13:27 PM
Sorry, T-Mar...I didn't refresh before I posted...I agree with what you are saying...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by Gralyn on 5/5/2004 at 7:52:29 PM
The 28" wheels....yes, they do say 28"......but, I believe they are actually smaller than 27"...maybe the same size as 700 ? I haven't actually measured - but that's what I understand. I always thought that they were actually 28"...actually bigger than 27's. I'll bet Sheldon Brown has a chart or something. Or maybe there's one here.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by JONathan on 5/5/2004 at 10:55:09 PM
On the tires, check the post earlier that Tom wrote up, which explains about as much of the conundrum of sizes as is possible. Measuring the bead diameter and comparing with a "known" is always a solution...or a working hypothesis at least.
No doubt (at least in my case) the bike can easily take a "real" 28" wheel. There were 4 models that I know ere imported in the early '70's. I can only remeber; "special" as one model, and it wasn't a high end. There was a touring model...probably much like mine, which looks very much like the Classic-Rendevous "Bot."
It seems to have stamped dropouts and no integral hanger, although it's a little hard to tell from the one picture that has that in view.
I'm fitting 40-622's on mine just for fun. If I could only have 3 bikes, this would be one of the choices. They handle the hills and the flats real good. I think it's because the guys building them, were riders too. Just a guess, but subtle differences seem to be what makes big differences in ride. Can't beat the steel frames from days of yore.
Mine had the "armored" brake cables and there is a braze-on for the front derailer cable stop and another one on the shell for the sweep to the rear derailer. The chromed crown has cutouts, too. A nice touch.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by T-Mar on 5/5/2004 at 11:57:45 PM
There are four incompatible 28" rim/tire sizes, with different bead diameters. One of the European 28" sizes has a 622mm bead seat diameter, which is the same as 700C and tubulars (though technically there is no bead seat diameter for tubulars). Consequently, these three are interchangeable without adjusting pad height, providing you do not have interference problems due to tire width.

A 27" rim/tire has a bead seat diameter of 630mm and thus has a larger diameter rim. However, the outer diameter of the 28" tire is larger, as a result of it's larger section and sidewall height. The bottom line is that a 28" TIRE IS LARGER in terms of outside diameter, but the 28" RIM IS SMALLER in terms of diameter.

RobA, there is no need to apologize. I think most of us have been the victim of near simultaneous and identical posts. Like they say, "great minds think alike".

JONathan, FYI, my '72 catalogue shows a line-up of 6 lightweights. The model on Classic Rendevous may be a Special, but something is not right. It clearly has a Special's Valentino rear derailleur. However, this derailleur had a stated maximum cog size of 28T and there is clearly a 32T cog on the freewheel. To run this, it would require the Gran Turismo derailleur. Interestingly, Bottechia had a Gran Turismo model with this set-up. Either it is a Gran Turismo with a replacement derailleur, or a Special with a new freewheel. The photos aren't clear enough to distinguish the model name on the top tube, but I'm guessing a Special.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by Gralyn on 5/6/2004 at 3:16:36 AM
The hole - it's on the down-tube, on the underside....like at maybe 4 o'clock. It has paint in it - so it was there from the very start. It looks to be the size for a regular cable housing. ???????

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by Gralyn on 5/6/2004 at 12:08:35 PM
OK, the hole - it comes in at an angle - just like holes I have seen in top tubes - which routed the rear brake cable housing. But this one is on the down tube. If you're on the bike - the hole is on the right side.

I took some pics of the frame - but it was so late last night - I haven't had time to do anything with them.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Bottecchia posted by Jim on 5/25/2004 at 9:49:00 PM
hi i have an old bottecchia all chrome and equipeted with a (i assume a threaded and screw installed oil port) in the head tube. this bike also has a decal on the down tube that sez. 1911-1961, Cinquanie, T Carnielli
it also has campy. drop outs nuvo record rear der. and record front der. steel cottered cranks (simplex.)
this bike rides real smooth on hi-flange camy. hubs and sew-ups

AGE / VALUE:   1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by: Rebecca on 5/5/2004 at 12:52:58 PM
I have a 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper. I purchased this bike new. It has less then a few hundred miles. This bike has been in storage and unused for at least 15 years. I oiled and greased the parts during that time. My Stumpjumper is in very, very good condition and has all its original parts including the tires. I paid $600 for it at the time of purchase. I would like to know what its' value is today. Can anybody help. If you require further information or photos please contact me. Anxiously waiting a reply... Rebecca

    1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by John E on 5/5/2004 at 3:27:48 PM
We used to have an old school mountain bike discussion area, which would have been appropriate for your posting, but it has apparently expired due to lack of sufficient interest. Search eBay for comparable listings. If yours is indeed pristine, it may be collectible.

   RE: 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by JONathan on 5/5/2004 at 11:13:19 PM
That was their TOL bike, as I recall. I have a "RockHopper Comp1" and a "HardRock" which were below the "SJ".
It's worth what you paid, IMHO. That was in '80's $$. That's what I think it's worth, but getting your price is another story.
I'd hang on to it, is what I'd do. The steel framed MTB's have not reached vintage stauts enough to get a solid read on their desirability. Some guys are going with retro fit to rigid forks! My "RockHopper" differs in componentry and it may not be quite as robust...but, hey, the RockHoppers are real nice offroad even for a big rider. If yours is the cro-mo steel frame model, It is a great bike. Try local MTB, "ROMP" clubs or stores that have MTB bulletin boards. Just a thought. Why not keep it for ridin'?
Good luck.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by T-Mar on 5/6/2004 at 12:07:48 AM
The ATB population doesn't seem to have the interest in vintage equipment that the road discipline does. I don't know if it's due to the fact that the genre only goes back about 25 years or because all the older gear is seriously dated and is a real liability for serious riders. What I do know is that that year I tried to sell some NOS mid-'80s ATB components on Ebay and didn't get a single bite, despite low starting prices. I guess the demise of Old Road's ATB posting board due to lack of interest is just another indicator of this.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by From the Hip on 5/6/2004 at 3:55:42 AM
The Stumpjumper was one of the first production mountain bikes. You could probably sell it for $200 to the right collector. If you have room to store it, keep it for a few years. For an oldschool mountain bike, they're pretty light.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by JONathan on 5/6/2004 at 5:11:52 AM
A set of their "Fat Boy" tires and that would be a wicked lightweight runner. I have a Univega "Alpina Uno" which was a first generation MTB. The early Cro-mo frames had very good (read dependable) componentry, something that is absent from a lot of MTB's that were quickly produced to meet demand. If all of 200 was all I could get, I would indeed hang on to the StumpJumper, pristine and all. I would pursue not "collectors" markets, but rather specialty sources, where the quality is understood better and the prices will be better...for you, IMHO.
Who is making a righteous chro-mo steel MTB, these days? Rigids take a lot of skill to run and they are, therefore a great test. If storage is a problem, bikes can be "compressed" by removing the pedals, wheels and seat. Loosen the bars and rotate to make a streamlined profile. They sell used "hardRocks" (way below the SJ) for about 200...maybe more, in LBS's that sell used bikes.

   old school mountain bikes posted by John E on 5/6/2004 at 3:36:26 PM
For several years, I have owned a red-white-and-blue top-of-the-line 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10 mountain bike, as used by Ned Overend's team when Schwinn sponsored him. Although these sold for close to $900 originally and only 2000 were made, I have yet to see one fetch more than $300 on eBay. Since it suits my conservative (i.e., chicken) offroad rding style and is fun and very practical on-road as well, I currently plan simply to keep riding it, without worrying excessively about potential future collectibility. (Since it's my only mountain bike, I have not been spoiled by today's featherweight high-tech steeds.)

   RE:old school mountain bikes posted by JONathan on 5/6/2004 at 4:21:31 PM
Indeed. Adrenaline rushes induced by riding in traffic is enough for me. The rigids out climb the "modern" ones and the weight is off the front end, where you need control. Of course the exotic materials and designs improve it. I see a lot of MTB's (mostly suspensioned) on blacktop, which renders the point of how advertising can effect what gets on the road. Nobody is advertising rigid framed MTB's for exploration. I would take my rider (1984 Miyata "terra runner") over any full mount for long distance, remote access cruising. This would be a specialty market around here, but in other regions it may well be a completely different preference. On pricing, it's like a lottery, now. Then there is the question of history. A used MTB has to be viewed with a scant eye. They get pounded up pretty good..or they can be pristine, near zero wear. I would be especially cautious of aluminum framed use d bikes.
Just as seems the case with VLW's, the vintage, steel MTB's will bottom, then increase as they get scarce and not solely because they are "old". Their attributes will be rediscovered, IMHO. I've seen a trend of first the vintage lightweights are in abundance, then it was MTB's and now it seems to be mostly tiny bikes. The plethora of FS and full MTB's have yet to reach that point...if they ever will. Yesterday, I spotted a Nishiki "prestige" that was $75. A close look revealed a dented left chain-stay right near the BB. Now, if that were an aluminum frame, I wouldn't look twice. With that Nishiki, I thought long and hard, but still walked away. It could be fixed, or it may ride OK just like it is for a long time, but it was worth a second look. A couple years ago, that bike would have been $10.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by RobA on 5/6/2004 at 6:41:00 PM
Too bad there hasn't been enough interest for a separate MTB/ATB discussion group....maybe the interest level is starting to rise???....maybe 'OldRoads' might want to give it another go??? I hope those who are interested will tolerate this diversion a bit...I know we're off topic...

While I'm primarily interested in the old lightweights, when I want to get into the backwoods, obviously I'm going to take along something a little different...the 1980's stuff is mechanically quite similar to lightweights...I guess the main problem area is the rear axle/freewheel issue...

At present we're nearing the end of the annual series of spring cleanup weeks in a number of the suburban municipalities...and this year, so far, has been as rewarding as in past years...among the scores of old discarded lightweights (some not so light!!!)...I've found several worth picking up...I'll post on those later...this year I decided I should look for another MTB/ATB, as well... I wasn't disappointed...so far I've found 5 or so good or reasonably good bikes...1987/88 Trek 820, 1986/7 Ritchey (model ?), an Asama (not too bad a bike), a Norco Bush Pilot (1990 or so??), Kuwahara, Nishiki.... I haven't had a chance to fully inventory these bikes, but the Ritchey, the Trek and the Norco look like great finds...from what I can tell so far the only thing wrong with the Norco is a lost left side spindle bolt, and possibly an ovalized left side crank arm. I spoke with the homeowner...a nice, middle-age, middle-class sort of guy, who happened to come out with more junk when I was there...he said all that was wrong with the bike was the pedal problem...amazing what people throw away...

Maybe I'm just too much of a tightwad...:)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   1984 Specialized Stumpjumper posted by Wings on 5/7/2004 at 7:00:58 AM
I pick up a lot of mountain bikes to fix up and move on to good homes. I have seen the Specialized bikes go for around $29. First used mountain bikes were around $90 at the best, now five years later they sell for $14 to $49. As they get old there is a lot to be repaired and it costs to fix them up.

If the Stumpjumper has a U brake that also means one is stuck with that U Brake. If it has canti bosses then the bike is worth more because it could be upgraded to V Brakes. If it is Biotech chain rings that also lowers the price. So, even if it looks good it may be not be upgradable. I just do not see them becoming collector's items at this point -- not like lightweights.

I purchased a Mongoose ATB for around $20 and put new tires, chain, shifters and cables. Wow, that bike was awesome to ride as it had different geometry then the ATBs now. It was almost like a cruiser mountain bike. It had a Cro-Mo frame and it just felt so good and was so silent. It was old and still is a good bike.

   1984 Stumpy posted by Brian "who likes all quality bikes" on 5/9/2004 at 4:50:20 PM
Ten cents of insight from one who has several pristine golden oldy MTB's: An '84 Stumpjumper would have a chrome moly frameset. These bikes were of Japanese build & were very well made - quite heavy by today's MTB standards. There is an interest in collecting older MTB's, mostly fillet-brazed Ritchey/Fat Chance/Mountain Goat/etc. The frame angles of this period were quite relaxed by today's standards. These bikes cruised like they were on rails. A very clean Stumpjumper is worth more than $200, and if it was an earlier Stumpy with the TA crankset - even more valuable! I would hang onto it for awhile if it's easily stored away. If you don't have to sell - hang on to it. Put it on ebay in 2008 - you might be surprised what you'll be offered. Is it a Imron Blue? You probably have the "deer's head Shimano" shifters & derailleurs. If you have the Tommaselli brake levers, that's a bonus treat! Underneath that paint are chrome-plated fork & chainstays -Just don't scratch off any paint to verify! FYI, I have vintage & contemporary steel wheels as well for all you anti-MTB lurkers!

AGE / VALUE:   WHAT IS IT posted by: PETER on 5/4/2004 at 9:08:13 PM

AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle "Mark xx" 10 speed posted by: JONathan on 5/4/2004 at 5:02:10 AM
I keep running into bikeboom bikes that were sold new during the bikeboom at a local shop that has long since gone out of business. Hard to figure how they went out, when so many bikes moved through the dinky store. I sure miss the small retailers that were everywhere at one time. This bike is a VolksCycle "Mark XX" 10-sp.; double butted chro-moly men's frame. It's got Dura-Ace cp brakes! Ornate lugs, half-chrome forks and SR "maxy" cranks.
THe SR stem and ornate engraved alloy bars and SunTour barcons make it a decent bike. The rear and front ders. are SunTour "Tourney". I think SunTour made the "tourney". I haven't had time to go over the bike closely. The rims are Araya alloy 27's with HF hubs. No problems there. The tires are disintegrated, but tubes are OK (as spares).
THe saddle is a plastic piece of junk that is not OEM, I would say. Integral der. hanger and double-butted chro-mo points to above average status, especially for that period, here. My question is what to do? I can restore to nearly original and it would look "very good" (not premo) or I could extract the barcons, brakes and derailers for other projects. As usual for me in these matters, I allow time to make a decision; too many bad choices made on impulse.
Even buying this bike was spontaneous. I turned down a street that I normally don't use and I spotted this garage sale. Amazing how prices drop near quitin' time. The frame has brazed stops for down-tube shifters. I would think that the barcons could come off and then with DT shifters fitted, the bike could be kept intact as a righteous commuter.
Any ideas or comments on the make and this model are appreciated. Thanks.
BTW, it is remarkable to me how easy it is to find these VLW's while NOT looking and how hard it is while making an effort to find them. GS's are the last bastion of low priced gems, it seems to me. The thrift/charity shop had 17 tiny bikes and not a single adult sized bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle posted by T-Mar on 5/4/2004 at 12:19:46 PM
Another nice find JONathan. While most people would equate this to be cycling's equivalent of the Volkswagon and suspect a German origin, it is in fact Japanese.

The tubing and integral derailleur hanger suggest a relatively high end bicycle, though probably not top of the line, as that would generally mean tubulars. But then again, the original owner may have replaced them,as often happens. However, the Tourney derailleurs (they're Shimano by the way) and Maxy crankset also suggest something lower on the scale. The Dura-Ace centre-pull were actually fairly common and found on several mid range bicycles. They were near identical to the Tourney model, but used a higher grade of aluminum for the calipers. The bar ends shifters may well be original. It was not usual for manufacturers to build a common frame for several models. One version may have used down tube shifters while the other was fitted with bar end shifters. The boss would serve to locate either the down tube levers or the cable stop clamp for the bar end levers. My sister's CCM Silver Ghost had a boss for the cable clamp of the bar end shifters. Again, the bar end shifters imply something in the upper end of the model line-up. Lacking a catalogue, my impression is an upper mid range bicycle, probably second or third from the top of the line.

If this were mine, it's such an uncommon (at least in my region) bicycle that, barring any significant problems, I would keep it and fix it up. The only change I would make would be the derailleurs. Given the rest of the bicycle components, I would think that Titlist would be the best fit. I don't think that I would go as high as a Crane/Dura-Ace as that would be more appropriate on a bicycle with a forged crankset, as opposed the swaged Maxy unit. If, after living with it for a while, you find that it is not your cup of tea, then you can always salvage the parts from it for another project. You never know, once you ride it, you may really like it.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle posted by JONathan on 5/4/2004 at 4:51:28 PM
Thanks for the evaluations, Tom. Yes, Japan origin indicated by a sticker! Oops, the "tourney" is a Shimano model. Sorry about that; I was in error. The "tourney", if it functions correctly, will probably stay on it. Down-tube Shimano shifter sticks will go on it as I think they look better; mostly I think the DT shifts are more correct "looking". I think the change would be acceptable for the restoration, as the presence of the bosses imply. The paint is slightly faded as are the decals, which may work to good purpose as a vintage craft. No rust, just uv-haze on the pigment surfaces. There is a fine line between what looks like a reclamation project and a vintage restoration. Because it is unusual, has normal wear and is fairly high quality; it's looking good as a "museum" piece. One of my criteria is the bike has to functionally sound; air up, lube and ride. What is interesting to me, these bikes may look pretty down, but after some careful TLC they can look quite presentable. My recent Dawes "galaxy" demonstrated this characteristic admirably. It was pretty sour lookin', though nothing like the basketcase Mercier "100" I restored last year, and by the time it was all said and done; the Dawes sports a very spritely image. Very rewarding effort, I must say, although I don't keep a log of the hours...shutter to think.
Thanks, again for the feed on this Volkscycle. It appears a bit too unique to be relegated to the brutality of commuter services.
One last note, the Dura Ace cp brakes are just like the ones pictured on ClassicRendevous site. Definitely vintage and of short production period. That's cool.

   SunTour barcons posted by John E on 5/4/2004 at 8:23:07 PM
SunTour ratchet barcons are certainly period-correct, and quite appropriate for a commuting, touring, or transportation bike. I am glad I put barcons on my "East meets West" Peugeot UO-8, which also sports a SunTour cyclone rear derailleur and Shimano Tilist front, plus a Sugino aero aluminum crankset.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle posted by Renman on 5/14/2004 at 5:00:32 PM
JONatahan, volkscycle would be a nice rebuild and is really sort of a rare bike I've found. I have a VC Mark 100 with Shimano early dura-ace equipment (except for a titleist front der.). It's a really nice, stiff ride. The thing I like about this bike is how rare it appears to be. You can't hardly find much on the web except tri-athlete great Jack Johnstone apparently rode a VC to victory 30 or so years ago. I'm just old enough to remember Johnstone was a true studmeister in the field of ironman competition. Also, for what it's worth, my VC was purchased new at Stone's Cyclery, Alameda CA. Also, my VC Badge reflects that the bike was indeed japanese made for the Volkscycle Company of Los Angeles. -Renman

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle posted by Luke on 5/30/2004 at 9:07:23 PM
Hi. I have been looking around on the Web for Volkscycle info. I have a green Volkscycle Mark V that my mom bought when she was in college (late '70s). At all of the local bike shops, I told them I had a Volkscycle and they had never heard of it. Believe it or not, I still ride the bike! It still has all of its original parts, except for new tires which I just put on this weekend. I thought it would be interesting to post some Volkscycle info. By the way, it rides great and all of my friends think it's the coolest! Email me if you want to know more or if you have any questions/comments.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle posted by Luke on 5/30/2004 at 9:08:15 PM
Hi. I have been looking around on the Web for Volkscycle info. I have a green Volkscycle Mark V that my mom bought when she was in college (late '70s). It was bought somewhere in central PA. At all of the local bike shops, I told them I had a Volkscycle and they had never heard of it. Believe it or not, I still ride the bike! It still has all of its original parts, except for new tires which I just put on this weekend. I thought it would be interesting to post some Volkscycle info. By the way, it rides great and all of my friends think it's the coolest! Email me if you want to know more or if you have any questions/comments.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: Volkscycle posted by bruce on 6/3/2005 at 6:03:44 PM
I have a lime green VolksCycle Mark V that I still ride! I believe I bought it new about 1974 or 75 while I was in high school. I keep thinking about replacing it as it is geeting "long-in-tooth" but otherwise it has still been a great bike! Anybody have any idea of the value of these?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle posted by Dave on 10/7/2005 at 1:55:51 AM
If any of ya'll are still out there, I got a Volkscycle on trash night. I am really hip to a lot of vintage makers but never heard of this brand and was struck by the quality of it. If any of you can tell me a bit more e-mail me, It's a mens 27", made in Japan.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Volkscycle posted by Dane on 10/5/2006 at 8:47:23 PM
I bought a bicycle used in 1986 from a retired professor at Sacramento State University. There were no decals or other identifying features on it, but he said it was a volkscycle and that it was manfactured in Mexico. According to him, the year they manufactured them in Mexico was their best year as far as quality. The bike fits the descriptions in this email string; it was a medium light blue, has end shifters, shimano equipment with the titleist front derailleur; chrome fork. Only thing; the headbadges I've seen for
the volkscycle all appear to be about an inch high, are
black and gold with a crest with a couple lions on it, and have the initials "JWB." On my bike, while the headbadge is missing, the rivets which held it (one at top and one at bottom of the neck) indicate the badge was about four inches high. Otherwise, the bike seems to have all the charastics of a mark 5. Anyhow, I rode it from Sacramento to New York in 1986 and found it to be the greatest for touring; really solid I was hauling a lot of gear and that double-butted, chrome-moly frame held up beautifully. Recently, I took the frame into a local bike shop in San Francisco where I now live because I had lost the tool to get the crankset off. Everyone at the shop went crazy over the frame; made me feel pretty good in that I always wondered if the bike had any classic value. Anyway, I wish I could find out more about the history of this company, particularly if anyone else out there knows about their production in Mexico. Also wish I could find a picture somewhere of the volkscycle with the larger headbadge because that might better indicate what model the bike is and what year it may have been produced. It sure is a great piece of work.

AGE / VALUE:   Ukai rims posted by: sam on 5/3/2004 at 1:19:24 AM
Anyone know of a bike store(on line even better) that sells Ukai 700s? ---sam

WANTED:   Simplex wingnuts posted by: P.C. Kohler on 5/2/2004 at 2:30:59 PM
I am looking for a pair of Simplex plastic wingnuts for the skewers of my 1972 Peugeot PX-10e. Anyone out there have some they'd like to sell??


P.C. Kohler

   RE:WANTED:   Simplex wingnuts posted by Bryant on 5/3/2004 at 10:38:18 AM
I may have some at home. let me check and I'll get back to you.

AGE / VALUE:   very early serotta posted by: Mark Abrams on 5/2/2004 at 12:28:56 AM
I have an old Serotta for which I am trying to get an appraisal. I worked in a bike shop 'The Bike Shop' in Saratoga Springs, NY in the mid 90's. The bike was Manufactured in the building where Ben Serotta started -
his fathers hardware store - which became 'The Bike Shop'. Ben Serotta and another guy (whom I wont name) originally manufactured the bikes themselves. The other guy became an owner of 'The Bike Shop' while Ben went on to ... well you know. This is most likely built by one of those two guys. A few years back, the owners sold 'The Bike Shop', I was offered the bike. I am trying to get an appraisal of the bike. I have posted images here:

Let me know what you think.


VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dura Ace AX: State of the Art for Armstrong posted by: Jacob on 5/1/2004 at 12:18:44 PM
Hi folks!

In the may issue of the british magazine Cycle Sport there is a feature analyzing Lance Armstrongs riding position on his 2004 Trek TT-bike. This is a state of the art superhighend carbon-stealth speedmachine with all the advantages the industry know of. But note the brakes: They are (NOS!?) Shimano Dura Ace AX from the early 80's!

I wonder where Lance get his brakeshoes? I have a set of these brakes, but took them of my Tange no. 2 frame because the shoes were worn down, and in most bikeshops here they would not even know, what I was talking about, if I said "AX".

Jacob, Denmark

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dura Ace AX: State of the Art for Armstrong posted by T-Mar on 5/1/2004 at 1:02:38 PM
A couple of years ago, a time trial specialist bought my NOS Dura Ace AX group from me just to get the brakest. No, it wasn't Lance (unless he was using a pseudonym - hmm, I wonder?). A little later, I e-mailed him to report a couple pairs of NOS pads posted on Ebay, that he might be interested in obtaining. He courteously thanked me, but said he didn't need them, as he carves his own from generic replacement pads. If I recall correctly, the pads were quite small, so you could use just about any modern pad as a starting point. Shimano probably re-cycled the old moulds, but I'm sure they are more than happy to have one of their tool shop employees custom machine the pads, just to keep Lance happy.

   Dura Ace AX shoes posted by John E on 5/1/2004 at 3:16:36 PM
Lance's choice of brake shoes surprises me, because when I put Shimano pads on my Campag. sidepulls, I was unable to come to a full stop on a 15 percent downgrade. Frightened, I switched to KoolStops, which work ALOT better. Of course, if one is racing and cares more about fine nuances of deceleration and speed regulation rather than really stopping, the Shimanos may indeed be the pads of choice. Once again, the needs of the recreational or transportation cyclist differ radically from those of the racer.

   RE:Dura Ace AX shoes posted by Derek Coghill on 5/1/2004 at 10:26:32 PM
The other thing that I read about Lance Armstrong's bike was that he uses a downtube lever for the front derailleur. I know it's not relevant to brakes, but there you are.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Dura Ace AX: State of the Art for Armstrong posted by T-Mar on 5/2/2004 at 3:35:35 AM
The Dura Ace AX brakes are only for Lance's time trial bicycle. I guess he's looking for that last iota of aerodynamic advantage.

As for the actual pad material, I wouldn't be suprised if the pros use different pads made with special materials. It wouldn't be unreasonable for the mechanics to replace the pads every night. That way they could run very soft pads. Car racers do it, so why can't pro cyclists? This is just speculation on my part. Maybe Ciclista can answer this?

   front derailleur control posted by John E on 5/3/2004 at 5:29:45 PM
Yes, the downtube-mounted front shift control on SOME of Lance's bikes has been discussed here and in BikeForums. Some folks say it reduces weight and wind drag; I say it's because Shimano got it wrong/indexed (and Campag. got it right/continuous) in engineering the left side integrated brake/shift control. With a typical large-drop 53-39 chainring combination, a skilled rider is less likely to throw the chain with a friction downtube or barcon shifter than with STI.

MISC:   Nexus 7 Speed internal geared hub swap posted by: Roy on 5/1/2004 at 9:52:19 AM
I was reading the post below about the Nexus 7 speed on eBay,

I am also considering such a conversion, I have been told that if you leave out the roller brake, the hub spacing can be reduced to around 126mm, which is a much easier fit into the frame than the stock 130 or so mm with the roller brake. I am contemplating a straight bar conversion on a Reynolds 531 tubed frame, using a set of Weinmann centerpull calipers, and and early Shimano 600 crankset. My only question is ti decide which rims to use, I sort of prefer to use a slightly wider model rim, but since the frame was originally a 700c equipped bike, a 27" wheel would be a tight fit up front and most likely cause a problem finding a caliper to work.
Does anyone know of an early model 700c rim that would have more width than say a Weinmann Concave (124), or a Rigida 1320 type of rim? There are plenty of 700c rims I see out there, but there being used on the comfort type bikes and are even a bit wider than I would like. What I have in mind is something like the standard Araya w/o alloy rims, about an inch wide, but I don't recall seeing these in a 700c? I see that they list a similar rim now, but I've only seen it shown in a 32 spoke hole version.
I have considered looking for a decent 27" wheel frame so I could use rims I already have? But finding a decent frame built for 27" wheels, as well as in a 25" size, might take a while.

   RE:MISC:   Nexus 7 Speed internal geared hub swap posted by T-Mar on 5/1/2004 at 12:43:25 PM
Araya had a model 16A which which came in a 19-622 version. Fiamme's model 71 was 18-622. Mavic's Mod 4 was 19-622. In case you are not aware, the first two numbers in the XX-YYY ETRTO/ISO rim size format is the rim width across the inside of the flanges. The other three numbers are the bead seat diameter. In this case the 622mm bead seat diameter denotes a 700C rim. For comparison, the Weinmann 124 and Rigida 1320 are 14-622 and 13-622 respectively. The only one of the mentioned rimes which is a high pressure, hooked bead rim like the Rigida is the Mavic Mod 4. It is also the only box section rim like the Rigida and therefore should be stronger than the others.

However if you can't find what you need in a vintage rim, I'm sure the local LBS can help you outwith something current. 700C aluminum rims, with 36 holes and wider widths are quite common on modern hybrid bicycles.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Nexus 7 Speed internal geared hub swap posted by Derek Coghill on 5/1/2004 at 10:29:00 PM
My Motobécane has Rigida steel 700C rims which are about an inch wide, if that's any help.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Nexus 7 Speed internal geared hub swap posted by JONathan on 5/2/2004 at 6:53:59 AM
FEMCO makes a good alloy rim that takes 40-622's (700-38C). The BMX riders use them, which is enough for me, as they seem to know what is a good deal. Like the Suzue hubs, which are very durable and they are economically priced. I have trued up only once in a year. Araya, of course is a big name and some of their alloy rims are top level, but they might be expensive (relative to the FEMCO). FEMCO is a small outfit (150 employees) based in Taiwan that supplies steel, aluminum alloy and x-alloy rims. These are on a Giant "nutra" cross-bike and they are good quality for the buck. I'd give them a try if Araya's are impossible to find.
I think Raleigh used FEMCO rims on some bikes. Check where they sell Raleighs or Giant bicycles for the rims. Good luck,