This is an archive of Vintage Bicycle Information.
For current Discussions, go to our main site: OldRoads.com

If you are trying to determine the genealogy of your bicycle by it's features, go to our Vintage Bicycle Price Guide
which details bicycle features, wheel sizes, brake types, etc., as well as showing a price estimate for your old bicycle.

If you are trying to determine the make and model of your bicycle, go to our Vintage Bicycle Picture Database
which details bicycle features, wheel sizes, etc., as well as showing a price estimate for your vintage bicycle.

Archived: Vintage Lightweights

AGE / VALUE:   three speed identification 1964 posted by: Billy Magee on 6/27/2004 at 1:11:17 AM
I recently aquired an English 3 speed 1964 on AW hub, called a ROYAL. It has chrome fenders, The badge is simply a crown. Its logo on the mudguard say ROYAL with the same crown on each side.Saint Stevens crown to be precise. The one used in ordinations. Any ways, I owned one brand new in 1963, and had not seen one since. The brand is not listed any where. It says manufactured for DB Harris Hardware.(ROLLFAST) It's a raleigh, hecules, clone, But says made in england all over it on the decals. Why can't I find out any thing about this bike. How long made? How Many? by Who? Its a beautiful bike.

Triple rider from New York.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   three speed identification 1964 posted by sam on 6/27/2004 at 7:33:26 PM
1964 would put it after Raleigh got hercules and Phillips,but early enough that it could have been built in a factory other than the raleigh factory.A "B" grade raleigh is mostlikely.Built as a contract bike for RollFast.Royal may be a name given to the Rollfast Import line of bikes.??---sam

MISC:   Univega "Supra Sport" posted by: JPNathan on 6/26/2004 at 4:47:43 AM
I have a Univega "Supra Sport" in excellent condition, except the decals are bit tattered. Does anyone know where I acn order some Univega decals?
The frame by itself is 6#'s. There is a sticker on the down=tube that states; lifetime guarantee frame, made in Japan. This fella is worth fixing up, IMHO.
I have a couple other Univega road bike VLW's, but nothing like this one. Forged dropouts and tight construction is very nice. I am starting from scratch on this one.
Those decals would really improve the appearance. The paint is OK.
Thanks, JONathan

   RE:MISC:   Univega posted by Derek Coghill on 6/27/2004 at 12:13:56 AM
This may be where computer-literate friends come in; take a good photo of the existing transfers and give it (along with dimensions) to someone who's good at Photoshop or somesuch.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Univega posted by JONathan on 6/28/2004 at 3:25:39 AM
Great idea, Derek. Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't thought of bugging one of the many "gurus" in near presence, but why not? Thanks, JONathan
BTW, this bike is not worth big bucks makeover effort, yet, it has a lugged chromoly frame and will be an asset to my Japanese collection of Univegas.
Whoever built these knew a lot about the craft. Cheap, too, for some inexplicable reason.

   RE:MISC:   Univega posted by RobM. on 6/29/2004 at 4:56:40 PM
I bought a brand new/NOS (circa 1984) Suprasport off ebay this past winter and would be glad to send any photos of decals. I put on a new saddle, seatpost, pedals, bar wrap, and it is now one of my favorite bikes. It's a little heavy but is a comfortable smooth riding bike. The seller has another one listed now with a buy it now for $75. Not bad for a brand new 20 year old bike.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Univega posted by JONathan on 7/1/2004 at 1:04:30 AM
Thanks for the offer, Rob. I can jsut make sense out of all the decals. Strange thing, the decal that has "Lifetime Guarantee Frame" is new looking. It is more the likes of a sticker. The pipe decals are very thin. The main reason to redo these is to match the quality of my other Univegas, that all have primo looking decalery (Is that a word?). This one would look off parked next to the others; although the bike itself is probably the best of the lot. The "Viva Sport" is very interesting. It has low end, but good, SunTour stuff. A pillar mounted shifter setup on the down-tube, integral hanger and roadster/tourist bars. Forged dropouts and high quality finishing details of construction.
Was it Miyata or Nishiki that built these? I never can keep it straight.

AGE / VALUE:   Retro FIXer-upper? posted by: Elvis on 6/25/2004 at 3:12:45 AM
Hey all. i was lookin' at old photos on the 'net of bikes from like 1890-something. I've got a few promising steel frames to make a replica on the cheap... Fixed hub, no brakes. They did have skip-tooth sprockets, which I can't duplicate... However, I wonder if I could try and build up a bike like that. "Roadster" handlebars [maybe slanted down as on a club bike] a sprung seat, and fixed gear. No brakes. Currently my fixed gear [w/ a front brake]is built on modern aluminum Trek frame, I'm digging the vintage idea. Anybody ever try this?

      Retro FIXer-upper? posted by John E on 6/25/2004 at 1:58:34 PM
Why can't you simply grind alternate teeth off the cog and the chainring, assuming, of course, that you start with an even number of teeth on each? You may even be able to find a block chain; if not, a regular chain will pass all but a close inspection.

   skip-tooth sprockets.... posted by Elvis on 6/25/2004 at 2:32:31 PM
That sounds like a great idea... Wish I'd thought of it!
The sprocket is aluminum so it shouldn't be that hard to cut or grind off every other tooth -- except, of course, for the fact that it's a 52-tooth sprocket. If I replace the cranks and use a bolt-on 50 toother or even a 48 toother it might work!
Good think i have lots of cranks lying around....

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Retro FIXer-upper? posted by sam on 6/25/2004 at 5:00:55 PM
Try this site http://nostalgic.net/arc/pre1920/
And BTW no all early bicycles used skiptooth chain,the highend racing bikes of the day used the "English" chain--or to us regular 1/2".If you can find one on the cheep -some exercise bikes have a great fixed gear hub.Most of the early bikes used 28" wheels--that's the hardest part of your plan.You might look into 700s,or use English 28" rims.Some early American bikes from the Teens also used Sturmey/Archer 3speed coasters with a top tube shifter.Good luck with your plans---sam

   Thanks! posted by Elvis on 6/26/2004 at 4:03:01 AM
Thanks! Checked out the site, some real funky pictures of antique bikes! I especially liked the pictures of old bike track races! [dirt tracks, looks like -- can you imagine?]
I've settled on using an old Centurian, mostly black with half-chrome fork. The fork rake is rather pronounced as on most older bikes, and it's light. Using the original 165mm SR Apex cranks and big round one-piece chainring [both aluminum]. 700c rims, just tookt he rear wheel offa my other bike. Not really vintage, just rebuilt, Mavid Open Pro Rims, straight guage spokes and a nice solid flip-flop hub with an 18tooth cog. 52 tooth front. The handbar stem is offa an old Raleigh and the bars are reversed "north road" or roadster as some call them, so they give an effect that's like a cross between old track bars and moustache bars. Rubber grips. I'm using a new seat for comfort reasons, its a CODA I took off a new mountainbike I pulled outa the rubbish. Looks modern and uncomfortable but is suprisingly comfy on the move. When I get the time to dig out my power tools I'm going with that grinding idea; the 52 - tooth chainring has an even # of teeth so it should work. For now, rides great! It's amazing what one can throw together in an evening if one has a lot of parts lying 'round...
By the way, I wanted to use a cool forged NITTO stem and bars I took offa realy old Fuji, but I just couldn't bring myself to waste them on a bike that's basically a modern version of the real thing. They're hangin on the wall.

   oops! posted by Elvis on 6/26/2004 at 4:04:37 AM
"700c rims, just tookt he rear wheel offa my other bike. Not really vintage, just rebuilt, Mavid Open Pro Rims"
--meant "Mavic" not "Mavid" -- darned typos!

AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Super Mirage posted by: mcw on 6/25/2004 at 3:04:36 AM
I have a chance to buy a Motobecane Super Mirage but we don't know what it's worth. The only other stuff written on the bike is: " built with 2040 High-resiliency tubing"; gears are "suntour V-GT LUXE";tires are "Panaracer Tour Guard Aramid 27 x 11 1/4" Other than Made in France, there is no other information. Is there a serial number on there somewhere?? Can anyone tell us how old it is and what it's worth?? 'Thanks

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Super Mirage posted by Walter on 6/25/2004 at 2:12:28 PM
The bike is from the later 1970s maybe 1980. Moto used the name "Mirage" and "Super Mirage" throughout that period and I think the new Asian made Motos have continued the name.

The bike was the 2nd or 3rd up the line from the bottom in the later 1970s. It is a relatively heavy bike (28-29#). What differentiated the Mirages from the Namade I bought in 1977 is that it had better shifting (the ST changers you noted) a 2 tone paint and wheels with QRs.

The bikes sold well in the Boom days. Compared to their Schwinn competition they were light and Motos had very good quality paint/decals.

On eBay they sell for '$50 sometimes more/less. Good solid bikes but Moto made better.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Super Mirage posted by John E on 6/25/2004 at 2:17:09 PM
The frame sounds like a basic Peugeot UO-8 clone, with plain-gauge carbon steel tubing. The SunTour V-GT Luxe was introduced ca. 1972 and sold for at least 10 years thereafter. If your bike has a 5-speed freewheel and centerpull brakes, it is probably of approximately 1972-1977 vintage. Perhaps one of the local Motophiles can pin it down for you. If you are lucky, it has aluminum rims and decent aluminum cranks (integral spider, replaceable chainrings, hollow spindle). It is a good transportation and recreational machine, but probably nothing collectible or otherwise special. Also, note that if yours was built in the late 1970s, the BB fixed cup may be Swiss (reverse) threaded, instead of French (clockwise) threaded -- Motobecane was one of the first French framebuilders to get this right; it took Peugeot until almost 1980.

Popular serial number sites are the bottom bracket shell, the left rear dropout, the bottom of the head tube (mainly Schwinn), the seat lug (Bianchi and others), and the top of the seat tube (Capo, Allegro, and some Italian bikes of the early 1960s).

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Super Mirage posted by JONathan on 6/26/2004 at 12:28:20 AM
I have seen a "Mirage" on the commuter circuit. They are very smooth riding. Mine is a "Super Mirage" (1978). Black with red color scheme. Gold pin stripes around the lugs. SR craks with SunTour "V-GT Luxe" rear and simplex parallelogram front; not the push-rod one. Mafac "Module E" hp alloy rim on Shimano lf hub. Front rim looks like a Rigida alloy hp with eye also. The Weinmann "Vainqueur 610" cp's front and rear. 41" wheelbase on 25" frame makes for a lively ride. The left brake lever has a rear mirror attached as integral componet. Boots are very nice and the brakes are real good. PIVO bars on what looks like a SR stem.
With two rflectors and bell on board the bike weighs 25#. I weighed it twice! The SunTour down-tube "power shifters" are either refitted or the cable braze-ons for the stem shifters were fitted as optional feature. This bike would take barcons, too. You could do well with this one as commuter/sport rider. The "Gran Tourer" has more relaxed geometry, although I have not measured it; just from rides and straightening the forks. If the bike is all there, except for tires and brake pads (cables and shrouds, maybe), it is a very good price at $50. Quite frankly, they run better than a lot of new stuff that costs big. Paint on Motos holds up well and the construction is solid as a rock. Tougher than Peugeot "UO-8", IMHO.
Look at the seat-stays and rear triangle, you'll see what I mean. They are still on the road everyday by guys in the know. Like those vintage Fuji's, Sekines and Nishiki's, well worth fixing up. I would not sell mine for less than $200, which I do not plan to do, but by the time you get a bike raod worthy, $200 is cheap, IMHO, for a solid quality VLW.
Add it all up and you'll see what I mean. Remember, you get a ride that is way different and comfortable with lugged steel frames. Good luck. Check all the components for wear. The cranks tell the date on the inside if they are SR's. $50 sounds about right if you have to replace all the cables, housings, pads,; chain; tire; rubes and tape. That's assuming the BB and axles are just in need of lube.
Just my opinion, JONathan
BTW, serial number is under the BB on mine, for whatever good it will do in dating the bike.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Super Mirage posted by JONathan on 6/26/2004 at 12:35:41 AM
I mean "SR" cranks. They have "Motobecane" on the face, but inside there is the "SR" logo and two numbers. One is the date (I think) the other is the length; usually 170mm. This one of mine has French pedals with "40" stamped on the drum. Serviceable type with "Christophe" clips. Real nice setup.

   Mavic rim, not Mafac posted by JONathan on 6/26/2004 at 1:26:49 AM
I think it is Mavic, not Mafac for the rim make. I always get the brake maker and rim maker mixed up. Sorry,

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Super Mirage posted by mcw on 6/26/2004 at 4:05:56 AM
Thanks to all who replied. I think I'll offer $50. Appreciate the help.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Super Mirage posted by JONathan on 6/26/2004 at 4:36:00 AM
The frames are pretty amazing in how well they can adapt for different setups. The cable stops are located at two places for the shifter cables. A pair near the normal place on underside of down-tube and another tandem near the BB also on underside of down-tube. The rear chain-stays look like they could easily handle 700-38C touring tires, if you ever go for commuter capability. Excellent choice, IMHO. If the frame is sound and forks are true, that would be a very good price, just by itself.
Check the frame real closely. Good luck,

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Crank Adapters posted by: jack on 6/25/2004 at 1:12:35 AM
Rather than continue the thread regarding crank adapters specifically for Schwinn Super Sports, this subject is similar but different, or maybe I just wanted to start a new thread.

As I previously noted, I found a (BMX)crank adapter which consists of 2 internally threaded Al rings which bolt (3) together. I also noted that the device seemed a little flimsy for this part of the bike but at $20 may work. I looked around LBSs and found two other adapters, one made by Tioga and the other by YST. Each of these units consists of new cups, bearings and spindles and they seem to be robust units. They are overstock from closed stores and are many years old but the original (and still my price) is $28, making them a bargain (if they work).

Has anyone had experience with either of these two units or can anyone rate their quality based upon the manufacturer?

One problem is going to be trying to get the right length for proper chainline but the YST seems to be designed for some lateral adjustment of the spindle.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Crank Adapters posted by Eric Amlie on 6/25/2004 at 2:35:07 AM
Now that I think some more about it, I think I did get the one in my Super Sport from Harris Cyclery, and I believe it is the YST. I remember calling them and speaking with Sheldon Brown as I was a little confused about the correct orientation of the spindle. I remember that they offered two different models, one for double and one for a triple. I bought the one for the double but ended up using the Stronglight 99 triple on it and the chainline seems to be fine. It shifts well in any case. I think the one I bought off ebay is one meant for a bmx bike and I'm unsure if it will work in a road bike(difference in crank hanger width?). I just threw it in inventory and haven't investigated any further since I haven't needed it(yet).

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Crank Adapters posted by jack on 6/25/2004 at 3:24:03 AM
Thanks for the info Eric, Harris indeed has several crank adapters (or conversion kits to be precise) listed on their site. The ones with various spindle lengths are YST so I'm going to look again at the Tioga just to be different.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Crank Adapters posted by Meatwad on 6/25/2004 at 8:40:14 AM
Have you seen this kind? It looks like it uses the oversize bearings and pressed in cups.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Crank Adapters posted by Oscar on 6/26/2004 at 3:18:53 AM
I have a Tioga in a Super Sport. It has a long spindle, and I use it for a triple.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Crank Adapters posted by jack on 6/26/2004 at 7:34:54 AM
Thanks for the tip (meatwad?). At $15 it certainly is the least expensive conversion kit I've seen. I closely compared The YST and Tioga and both seem well made. The Tioga seems a little better finished plus its made in Japan whereas YST is Taiwan. The Tioga is Model CK-170DX and the LBS didn't know if this was for BMX (1 chainring) or double or triple.

AGE / VALUE:   Varsity posted by: Tim on 6/24/2004 at 12:28:20 PM
I saw a old Varsity at a yard sale the other day. Asking price $25.00.Thing is it had bow pedals(like on old Schwinn cruisers and sting-rays) also had schwinn script seat,upright cruiser style handle-bars full chaingaurd that said varsity on it.
It looked all original,Did schwinn ever build a varsity like that, or is a d.i.y?

     Varsity posted by John E on 6/24/2004 at 2:12:51 PM
I have seen some 1960s era Varsinentals with factory original upright handlebars and chrome mudguards. I have not noticed the full chainguard, but perhaps it is something Schwinn tried for awhile. Can you get the serial number, or did you notice whether the shift levers were mounted on the downtube (through 1966) or the handlebar stem (1967 and following)? With the big "pie plate" chainring cover, a later Varsity would have no room for a conventional chainguard.

I do not have the link handy, but Bob Hufford was assembling a comprehensive Schwinn 10-speed database, which listed some of these models.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Varsity posted by schwinnderella on 6/24/2004 at 3:20:49 PM
Was the bike a three speed? The early version of the varsity which was a three speed used a full chain guard,upright bars, and bow pedals I believe. I believe they made this early version for just a few years beginning in 1953 or 1954.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Varsity posted by Walter on 6/24/2004 at 7:59:21 PM
When "working" (I was too young for it to be official) in a Schwinn shop in the mid70s I remember the owner sending a few Varsities out the door with mattress seats and cruiser or North Bend bars. I don't remember a chainguards and am not sure how a full one would work on a derailleur bike. Perhaps it is the old 3 speed.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Varsity posted by Eric Amlie on 6/24/2004 at 8:25:13 PM
I have a '65 Varsity tourist with the upright bars, fenders, and mattress saddle, but I think Schwinnerella has this one right as the '53-'54 3 speed model. I think the chainguard identifies it. The serial number would identify it for sure. I bought one of these off ebay a few month ago. Cool old bike! Too bad we can't attach photos here or I would show you what they look like. I believe Schwinnderella has a very nice example of one of these that he pulled out of the junk. Much nicer than mine.

      Varsity posted by John E on 6/24/2004 at 8:37:26 PM
I had (again) forgotten about the relatively rare 3-speed Varsities of the 1950s. Yes, of course the full chainguard would be perfectly consistent with a single-chainring bike. By the way, I suppose Keith Kingbay's 3-speed to 8-speed evolution of the Varsity also explains why the first model years' derailleur Varsities had 26" wheels, for which the 3-speed frames would have been designed.

   RE:   Varsity posted by Kevin K on 6/25/2004 at 1:02:30 AM
Hi all. The swap meet at Memory Lane this spring produced a near perfect 54 or 55 Varsity in black. $75. It was beautiful. 3 speed. Moving and expenses made it a no no for me to buy. Next time I hope. Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Varsity posted by schwinnderella on 6/25/2004 at 2:08:20 AM
Good memory Eric! I have a few pictures of my varsity posted on the SchwinnCollectors page.Not sure if you have to be a member to view the pics or not.Anyway here is a link to the pics,scroll down and click on Schwinnderellas to see my pics.
Happy Collecting

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Varsity posted by Tim on 6/25/2004 at 12:25:40 PM
WOW what a response,it was a 10 speed,I didn`t get a chance to check the ser.#.Now `I`m not sure about the chainguard,the more I think about it I`m not sure about fenders.( old age creepin up I guess).Maybe I better go take another look....Tim

AGE / VALUE:   bicycle identification posted by: Al on 6/24/2004 at 1:07:11 AM
I have an old Raleigh frame which has the serial number RAN 98862. The forks have SPRITE on them but the frame/ handle bars(ram's horn type) do not match pictures of Sprites I have seen. The bike has Campagnolo Simplex? gearing (10 speeds).It was bought from Harry's Cycle Supply, West Hollywood CA in the early 60's. Does anyone have an idea what this might be?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   bicycle identification posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/24/2004 at 7:16:12 PM
You have the somewhat rare original Sprite which was a middle of the road Raleigh 10-speed dating from 1962 when Raleigh revamped their entire "lightweight" range with new models like the Blue Streak, Gran Sport and Sprite. Lightweight in quotes for a reason: none of the new models were made of Reynolds 531 but rather plain 'ol Raleigh 2030 steel. There is one of these Sprites on eBay now I think, complete machine.

RetroRaleighs has the catalogue from '62 showing the Sprite and her compatriots.

P.C. Kohler

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by: jack on 6/23/2004 at 7:56:14 AM
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Varsity and Continental frames cannot be upgraded to Al cotterless cranks because the bb shells are not threaded/sized for this?

Is this also true for the fillet-brazed Super Sports which had one-piece "ashtabula"-type cranks like Varsicons whereas Sports Tourer had english (or french since my ST has Nervar) bb shells?

If both the above are true, then isn't it interesting that despite both SS and ST being hand-brazed in the Paramount shop, Schwinn would install different bb shells on these two bikes?

Has anyone heard of adapters that permit mounting of Al cotterless cranks into bb shells designed for one-piece cranks? I don't suppose Phil Wood would tool-up for producing rings to install sealed bbs on Varsicons.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by Stacey on 6/23/2004 at 10:44:10 AM
Jack, there is an adapter for the ashtabula bottom bracket shell that allows it to take a 3 piece crank. I remember seeing one on a Huffy Aero-Wind a few years ago. I think there is a recumbent site or two that sells them... maybe even available through Sheldon Brown. Good luck

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by Eric Amlie on 6/23/2004 at 2:28:32 PM
Yes, Sheldon(Harris Cyclery) sells them, although a bit pricey('$30?). I found one on ebay for about half of that and used it on my '66 Super Sport to install a Stronglight 99 triple.

    Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by John E on 6/23/2004 at 2:55:28 PM
For the Super Sport, the aluminum crankset is the best upgrade one can make. The only better upgrade for a Varsinental is a pair of aluminum rims. An "ultra" 6-speed freewheel, for older Varsinentals with 120mm O.L.D. rear axles, or a 7-speed for newer ones with 126mm spacing, is another great upgrade, although it may require filing the stops to increase the throw of the right "Twin Stik." (Better yet, convert to SunTour ratchet barcons.)

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by jack on 6/23/2004 at 9:36:00 PM
Thank you all for your responses and in answer to my own questions, you are all correct.

I managed to save a '70 SS (pre-'71 downgrade) from a chinese blast furnace today and its in my size! Indeed the bb shell is oversize and a trip to my LBS revealed they have adapters for one-piece to std english bb for $20. They consist of two internally threaded Al rings which clamp together via 2 screws. Kinda rinky-dink but they probably work.

Now I'll contemplate switching the components from the 26" ST to the 24" SS (if the ST's Nervar BB is english!). Anybody need a 26" ST frame in Lemon Yellow cheap?...its fillet-brazed!!!...and its from low-humidity California! Shipping wt. - 40lbs.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by mike patterson on 6/24/2004 at 12:02:45 AM
wouldn't that be the same adaptor used to put three piece cranks on BMX's? My lbs has them for about 22 dollars can. and they have three long bolts holding them together-just the thing to update that old Mead Ranger frame(just kidding).....Mike

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by jack on 6/24/2004 at 1:12:25 AM
Mike, you are correct, the adapter package said BMX.

Does anyone know if the Sports Tourer bb is english or french? I can find out but that means taking bb apart again.

    Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by John E on 6/24/2004 at 2:17:18 PM
I would be VERY surprised if the BB threading was anything but English/ISO. The easiest way to tell is to remove the adjustable cup and to measure its thread pitch: 1/mm = French, whereas 24/in = English. This will then tell you which way to unscrew the fixed cup. You can also examine the BB cups for engravings such as 1.37x24 (English) or 35x1 (either French or Swiss, much more likely the former).

   RE: Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by o-fisting on 7/31/2004 at 12:01:55 AM
o fisting

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Varsicons w/cotterless Al Crank? posted by high-heel on 7/31/2004 at 12:01:56 AM
high heel

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by: Gralyn on 6/23/2004 at 2:35:44 AM
I've been working on the Raleigh Grand Prix. IT's going really slow. I actually have 2 of them....a white one and a blue one. The white one has better finish, better condition of frame. So, what I'm doing - is taking the best of the 2 and putting it all on the white one. I wanted to have it all original. It even has the original tires. So, I thought of going back all original - including the tires.

But, then I'm thinking....I intend to ride the bike....and I mean for it to be ridden - should I decide to sell it.....so the 30 year old tires will just not do. I will put new tires on it. Now, the rims. These are Sturmey-Archer jobs. ....original....(although the rear rim on one of them was replaced with a Rigida). I planned to put the 2 Sturmey-Archer wheels on.....but....they are oxidized. The oxidation makes the rims look a bit blackened. It's very difficult to polish. The areas after I polished - still don't look good. I'm wondering....should I just put a set of alloy wheels on it? Forget it being exactly original? It's not like it's really valuable or anything....just a cool old bike.
What kind of alloy wheels did these Raleigh's have back in 1974? Like, a couple models up from the Grand Prix....what kind of alloy rims did they have?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/23/2004 at 3:43:13 AM
The next model up from the Grand Prix, the Super Course, had "alloy 27" x 1/4 rims" according to the 1973 catalogue. That's not very specific! The photos shows something very much like the ageless Weinmann Alesa rims rather than the more square pattern Dunlop HPs which were out of production by then I think. Weinmann rims of this era are easy to find on eBay.. you'd probably find a complete wheelset cheap.

Rims on better Raleighs.. well in those days, real men rode tubulars (still do) so they were Nisi/A.V.A. alloy usually. The Super Course TT had tubular rims then. The Gran Sport had clinchers and was listed as having Weinmann narrow section alloy rims.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/23/2004 at 3:45:39 AM
Sorry, it's obviously 27 x 1 1/4" rims....!

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by JONathan on 6/23/2004 at 7:25:12 AM
My '77 GP has those Rigida dimple pattern chrome steel rims and all Japanese components. The previous (original) owner did not ride this bike and it is in excellent condition. If I were to ride it, I would complete the transition to all Japanese and use a set of Araya hp alloy rim wheels. The '70 GP is a darker blue frame with the wrap around seat-stays; all European running gear. Simplex derailers with down-tube shifters. Weinamnn cp brakes and steel S-A wheels. I was thinking about fixing this one up with cotterless cranks (Japanese), like are on the '77. A set of Rigida alloy rim 27x1 1/4" wheels would make it a good ride. If I cannot find OEM parts for a bike, I can usually keep it at least period correct with components made in Japan or Europe. Rigida made some tough alloy rims with reinforced eyes that I have found to be virtually free of fiddle-faddle adjustments. True them and run them until the tires wear out. That's good.
Araya made some decent 27's, too. The Rigidas are better, IMHO. These Rigida wheels have the "helicomatic" cassette hub (700 series). They are very rugged units. The '77 is in such great condition that I have to keep it OEM. The '70 will be improved by the cotterless cranks and alloy wheels and it is faded enough to justify any changes for operational improvement...within cost limits. It rides about like the "record" ('70) that is basically the same frame except for the wrap around stays and half-chrome forks and chain-stays. I think the "record: might have a slightly longer wheelbase which makes it very comfortable. I figure if the paint and frame is excellent, then I keep it OEM. Otherwise, anything goes.
Specialized "Tri-Sport" tires are nice for heavy service around screw and glass laden roads.
Good luck, JONathan

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by Douglas H. on 6/23/2004 at 6:00:58 PM
I'm all for keeping a nice vintage bike original (except for Simplex Prestige junk which belongs in the trashcan) but in a deft mental exercise can neatly rationalize using modern replacements for some parts.
With an automobile being driven on today's roads, there is no stigma for using modern tires, brake components, fluids etc. I have no problem using up to date tires and tubes, cables with lined housing or modern brake pads. These are parts that were expected to wear out and need regular replacement, with a consciencious owner using the best currently available.

The bike is still equipped as designed, just optimized to get the best performance, safety and reliability out of the original components.

If ever you want to put the bike back to absolutely original condition, no one's stopping you from putting the dry old tires, rough, rust prone cable housing or ineffectual brake pads back on.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by Gralyn on 6/23/2004 at 8:32:08 PM
I have a set of Rigida Chrome rims I could use....and a couple sets of alloy rims. At least with the alloy rims - the bike will be lighter. I'll just have to see how it looks.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by JONathan on 6/23/2004 at 9:03:56 PM
Yes, I have the same dilemma with some bikes. First, is deciding; "rider" or "display" bike status. Unless the bike is particularly collectable, unique, the condition detremines the status, fo me.
If it is in new like condition, then it gets the OEM (sans shredded tires that really detract) treatment as an exercise in historical tribute. Sure would not hit the road with it for any serious rides.
If the bike has faded out, scratched up paint and torn decals, then it is a good candidate for refitting with better components (like cotterless and alloy rims, etc.). In your case, only you, of course, can decide what looks good. Those Rigida chromed steel rims look so "for the times" and very flashy cool.
Some would say the 700-28C thin-wall tires on dull, anodized alloy rims with spoke eyelets look cool; they sure perform a lot better. I keep excellent condition Rigida chrome rim wheels for restorations.
Whatever you do, post the outcome.

    Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by John E on 6/24/2004 at 2:25:24 PM
Because of compromised braking performance, chrome rims are dangerous, particularly in wet weather.

Once one rises above the Huffy gaspipe level, a typical mid-to-high-end vintage lightweight frame is almost always better than the original components that graced it.

   RE: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/24/2004 at 7:30:16 PM
Interesting different approaches here!

What's the point of riding vintage lightweights if you, by changing out essential components like rims, brakes, gears, etc., wind up with something that's neither classic nor new and doesn't offer the distinctive RIDE (as well as look and character) of a classic machine with its original components???? I just fail to see the point here. It's cheaper and easy to just buy a new bike, no?

The idea that one cannot safely, enjoyably and yes competitively ride classic iron with true to era components is.. well... nonsense. At least from my experience. My "regular riders" are a 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, a 1949 Rudge Super Safety, a 1972 Peugeot PX-10, a 1979 Raleigh Competition GS and in a day or so, a 1973 Cinelli Speciale Corsa. Every one is original down to the last detail (new tyres I grant you, even new air in them!) and I don't think I am at some great disadvantage or imperilled by the fact. In fact, my PX-10 can hold her own against anything out there with all the original and much maligned(wrongly in my opinion) Simplex and Mafac components. If there was a better set of rims ever made for a bike than the Conloy Asps on my RRA, I'll eat a pair with mustard.

There's sure no "right" or "wrong" way to go about all this of course but a bike is, afterall, the sum of its parts and components. It's worthwhile to keep to the original when feasible. And you get that distinctive ride and character that no carbonfibre Trek is ever going to have.

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE: Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by Gralyn on 6/24/2004 at 8:05:44 PM
I think I will take another shot at trying to clean up that Sturmey-Archer rear wheel. I'll just see how it goes.

Whenever it comes to the other Raleigh Grand Prix (the blue one).....I do have another set of Sturmey-Archer wheels....but they are much more oxidized than the one's I'm trying to clean up. And since the rear rim of the blue Grand Prix was already replaced with a Rigida Chrome.....I think I will replace the front one with a Rigida as well. So, my white GP will have original Sturmey-Archer wheels...and the blue GP will have Rigida's.

But it may take me another week to clean up that wheel!

   restoration fidelity posted by John E on 6/24/2004 at 8:47:29 PM
PC -- When I am descending a hill in damp weather, I want brakes that WORK. Modern cables, housings, pads, rims, and tyres help immensely in this regard. As long as I have a beautiful vintage frame with friction shift, Brooks saddle, and toeclips, I have captured the most important look, feel, and ride quality elements. Your experience is analogous to listening to Baroque, Classical, or Romantic era music on period-correct instruments, whereas mine is more like listening to a perfomance on modern instruments.

   RE:restoration fidelity posted by P.C. Kohler on 6/24/2004 at 9:33:24 PM
Valid point. Then again it would imply heaps of maimed cyclists and twisted mangled 1948 RRAs and 1972 PX-10s on the bottom of every hill then and now. I just don't see it! As for music and instruments, you take the squeel of Mafac brakes away from a Peugeot and you just took away one of its defining features. It's like playing Elgars First Symphony on an synthesizer. That squeel is a potent safety device: folks hear it and run for cover.

But to each his own.. just please don't tell me you put those 'orrible modern black anodised rims on classic iron! Eeech...

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:restoration fidelity posted by JONathan on 6/24/2004 at 11:34:18 PM
I hear well (and heed) what your are saying, John E.. One can always keep a set of period-correct wheels with lousy brake pads to tippy-toe around the coffee shop, but for the "ride long and prosper" mode, which is my everyday thing, I would not run anything but alloy wheels and modern brake pads, no matter how much pride I'd have to swallow.
Being able to stop in the wet with only one brake functional says a lot about the improvements.
Gralyn, I have S-A 27" narrow chrome steel wheels. They are kinda flimsy, IMHO. Not the 26" wheels, just the bikeboom 27's. I keep them if they are pristine, but sounds like you could spend a better go of it hunting up a set of Araya's or Weinmann alloys. But, what do I know? I've run everything and never looked back, except now I at least know better...thanks to this great site and the expert contributers.
Good luck, Ride long and prosper,

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh Grand Prix restoration posted by Walter on 6/25/2004 at 12:23:51 AM
On a basic level I agree with P.C. However, on bikes I ride alot there are a few things I do to make the ride more enjoyable. #1 for me is clipless pedals. I rode clips/straps for many years and 1000s of miles but have no desire to go back.

Brakes depend on the make. There are several single oivot sidepulls of vintage make that work very well. DiaCompe RGC comes to mind. Campy Records, at least IMO, are not amongst those that work. I realize many people have ridden millions of miles collectively on them but I'm still very underwhelmed. There is a reason many contemporary riders referred to those calipes as "slowers" or "speed moderators" rather than actual brakes.

On my Basso I ride recent vintage dual pivot Records and am very happy. I do have the brakeset and SL pedals nicely boxed up should I change my mind or, more likely, the executor of my estate need them for sale.

In honesty part of my willingness to swap parts comes from the fact that I have to modify shifting and braking to compensate for a motorcycle accident anyways. That and my Basso was bought frame only and my S Record group came as a separate purchase so it can't be truly "original" no matter what. I recently bought a Motobecane Grand Jubile which is in very original shape and I'm going to keep it that way even if it limits my ability to shift.

That decision is easier as the bike has Weinman calipers with KoolStops and actually stops. :)

MISC:   Peugeot repair! i took yer advice... posted by: Elvis on 6/22/2004 at 11:08:21 PM
and put on downtube shifters. I hate bar stem shifters anyway, as that position not only looks uncool, but has less control and is uncomfortable. The bike now sports a pair of vintage Campagnolo friction shifters, but they had to be mounted a little less that half an inch forward of normal position becaus ethe Peugeot, equipped originally with bar stem shifters, has brazed on cable stops at the normal mounting spot for downtube levers! No prob, they look cool and it shifts fine for now. But I never realized how hard ti was to rethread that Simplex push rod front derailieur! Why do they call it simplex, it sure ain't simple! Took me near to five minutes just to get the cable thru! After that it was a cinch.
If it turns out not to shift cool with the mixed parts [Campy / Simplex] I'll just throw on a Campagnolo Nuevo Record Rear Der. I have from 1978. It's like mint, but right now I got it hangin on my wall and it looks so shiny I don't want to put it on a bike! ;) Also, I don't have a campy front derailier; i had a push-rod one, also '78, and broke it [i know, it's a crying shame!] Maybe I'll go to Suntour stuff, but all my other vintage roadies have either suntour or shimano, and I don't wanna do that to a European icon, even if a cheap one. This is, after all, my first Peugeot.
Next stop, crank replacement! But that's another day... leaves me somethin' to do over the weekend. Oh, and I'm going handle-bar bottle cage, of course... gotta find one in my parts bin...

P.S. - How do you guys tell mileage on your vitnage rides without messing them up with digital speedometres? I don't really want to put a cyclocomputer on this thing, though I have an extra one... What do you do?

   RE:MISC:   Peugeot repair! i took yer advice... posted by JONathan on 6/22/2004 at 11:33:33 PM
That's easy. I use the spur-gear mechainacl counter that fits on the front axle with the pin clamped on a spoke. You can get 27" or 26" calibrated models.
I was surprised that I set one up on my Raleigh "Sprite" last winter and was surprised at the mileage indicated. More than 200 mi. in a week of just normal ridng, which included lots of side runs.
Mne are all made in England, but I believe there are cheaper built versions available from varying manufacturers. Probably the patent ran out years ago.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Peugeot repair! i took yer advice... posted by Gralyn on 6/23/2004 at 2:35:17 AM
I have one of those small mechanical odometers - it was on my old, old, Hercules when I got it. It is pretty cool.

I have another odometer....it is like from the 60's or early 70's, it has a pulley and a small belt. I guess the pulley thing goes on the hub - then the belt runs over another pulley on the odometer - which would be mounted just above the hub - on the fork.

That old one is really small, metal-body - I like it.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Peugeot repair! i took yer advice... posted by JONathan on 6/23/2004 at 4:47:57 AM
That is the one, Gralyn. A pot metal alloy cylinder with tiny window for the simple mechanical computer drums inside...like the earlier car odometer. The counters are actually pretty accurate.

    Peugeot repair posted by John E on 6/23/2004 at 2:47:56 PM
Vintage Campag. friction downtube shift levers are the best. I have used them successfully with almost every other brand of derailleur, although their relatively small-diameter takeup drums do lead to long lever throws with SunTours. They are very compatible with Simplex, since the Simplex shifters also have small drums.

   Peugeot repair! New wheels...! posted by Elvis on 6/23/2004 at 11:12:27 PM
It's now got new wheels with quick release. 6-spd rear and front from a Panasonic. They've got Sansin hubs and skewers, but Weinmann axles. The rear spacing was no problem, fit as if it was made for that. After putting it in i looked at the original 5-spd rear wheel; it had a few spacers. Guess it works for me! I'm saving the old rims, but no way I'm going to go fer a long ride on em when I got vintage Aluminum lying about. The cranks may have to wait til the weekend. And those odometres sound cool... can you sitll buy em or did you just get them on vintage bikes?

   RE:Peugeot repair! New wheels...! posted by JONathan on 6/24/2004 at 12:27:25 AM
Good question. My little cache of the counters all came off bikes that I bought, except for one that is still in the original display package. The electronic computers took over. You won't have batteries to worry about drying up or shorting out. No wires to get fouled up in the running gear, but try to sell those simple mechanical ones along side the high-tech models (which do a lot more readouts) that cost just a few bucks more. The bike speedometers that had a worm drive mechanism through a cable were nice. I have one off an exercycle. Pretty funky, but these take a lot of energy off the front wheel. It would be hard to measure the enrgy used by the simple spoke counter models. A tiny draw once in a revolution is negligible, iMHO.
My guess is that someone makes them and sells them, but I sure do not know who or where.

   RE:RE:Peugeot repair! New wheels...! posted by Lenny on 6/24/2004 at 4:46:25 PM
Hi Elvis,

I'm not sure if the mechanical cyclometers are still made. However, I have one (for 27" wheels)that I can send you. It's made in Italy, mostly plastic, but it is NOS. Not as nice as the old Lucas cyclometers, but should work just fine. Send me your e-mail address off the list if you are interested.

Regards and happy cycling

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Peugeot repair! i took yer advice... posted by Derek Coghill on 6/27/2004 at 12:21:13 AM
Mechanical odometers - when I were a lad, the most common ones were made by Huret.

   Mechanical Speedometres posted by Elvis on 6/27/2004 at 3:57:57 AM
Thanks, Lenny. Truth is I don't want anyone to go to a hasle, I was after info only, although it is a great offer, and those things gotta be pretty rare NOS... though I appreciate the offer. The Peugeot is actually playing second fiddle to my new fixie, which I've christened "Old Skool" [because of it's "old school" shape, it's actually painted on the chainguard. I also put a skull and crossbones on the top tube just in front of the seat tube juncture, I couldn't help myself!.] I took an old black boom era Centurion with pronounced fork rake and small frame, threw on 700c rims [fixed rear] and the original aluminum 165 cranks with the 52 tooth chainring. Bar stem off a 1980's cheapo Raleigh, the thing is squared off and solid, plus tall seat post [offa mountain bike] and inverted cruiser bars. Looks like a 1905 track bike [except for the use of modern parts such as aluminum cotterless cranks, etc.] and rides great. But I have to say going brakeless makes the hair stand on end every time I approach an intersection!

   Peugeot repair! New wheels...! posted by Mark on 7/12/2004 at 1:57:31 PM
I have a 1989 Peugeot, I would like to get a back rim, 27", for my bike.


   Peugeot repair! New wheels...! posted by Mark on 7/12/2004 at 1:59:23 PM
I have a 1989 Peugeot, I would like to get a back rim, 27", for my bike.


AGE / VALUE:   Batavus Champion posted by: Krister on 6/22/2004 at 4:32:48 AM
Does anyone know about Batavus? I just bought a Champion and it is in really good shape. It is probably from the late 60's to early 70's. I've looked online for information, but I cannot find much. It is a beautiful bike and it needs little restoration. I am just wondering if there is any kind of market for this bike. I figure if anyone knows about this bike it would be someone here. Thanks for your help!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Batavus Champion posted by JONathan on 6/22/2004 at 7:03:45 AM
I think the company size and diversity would rule out it being a rare bike. They made cool mopeds and folders, too. Well built, probably had Bing carbs in the peds.
Any well built lugged steel frame is a good thing to keep, IMHO. Check your bike for Campy headset and BB. They made everything from bikeboom to top level road racers.
A mass produced bike has to have something intangible to become collectable. Take the Schwinn "varsity" as one example. They were all over the place, but they are becoming somewhat collectable.
They were built by unique methods of construction, are nostalgic relics and they are still good rides. Your Batavus definitely meets the latter condition. As for the other two categories, I would say probably no.
I would say, as a wild guess, if you have it setup to run good and if it has some Campy components, then it has to be $200-$300 just as a runner. If it has some other special provenance, fill in the blanks, then who knows.
Bear in mind, this is based on my observations of what used VLW's go for at LBS's that sell them. The bikeboom bikes are pushing $200 used for the better built bikes like Peugeots, Japanese makes and Raleighs.
Just my 2 c's

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn LWT Fenders posted by: jack on 6/22/2004 at 3:13:53 AM
Can anyone tell me if the factory fenders for early-70s Varsity, Conti, SS/ST (assuming they're the same)are chrome or stainless? I almost have this Sports Tourer together and I now fancy the fenders. A LBS said Wald recently made them but I think these would be aftermarket and I don't know what the originals should look like.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn LWT Fenders posted by Eric Amlie on 6/22/2004 at 12:41:26 PM
They are chrome plated steel. The fenders on the Travelers from the fifties and sixties were stainless steel.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn LWT Fenders posted by dent on 6/23/2004 at 3:43:22 AM
A Continental I picked up a few weeks back had the shortie fenders in stainless steel attached. It is a cool yellow '72 or'73 model, it was the fenders which caught my eye at first I expected them to be chromed but found them to be stainless steel. I just assumed they were Schwinn items on this very nice original looking Conti'.

AGE / VALUE:   White Puegot posted by: Elvis on 6/22/2004 at 12:03:40 AM
Just picked up a Puegot road bike: White frame with gold "puegot" on downtube in thin black outline and a checkered pattern on seat tube fading to the bottom. Aluminum bar stem, but steel handlebars. Weinmann levers and Wienmann type 730 sidepulls. Cottered steel cranks and Lyotard pedals. Simplex derailieurs and simplex bar stem shifters [I'll probably switch to bar end shifters when I get the time and a spare set of them]. Steel rims but they look to be in good condition.
I've always wanted a Puegot but never found one before. This seems to either be an older one, or have "bike boom" componentry. It has no lugs! What a shame, I love good lug work on an old steel bike... But it doesn't feel like a Varsity, either, if you catch my drift. [don't weigh a ton]. The paint is like new same for a few scratches in out of the way places, probably from storage; it was all dusty.
Does anyone know how to figure out how old it is? This is the first time I have seen or heard of a Puegot without lugs. I assume it is welded. Wish it had lugs, but it seems to ride nice.
Also, does anyone know it it is possible to install aluminum cranks? Or even to remove the cottered ones? Will I have a problem with threading, or is that only on French bikes of a certain age?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   White Puegot posted by JONathan on 6/22/2004 at 12:33:21 AM
Nice find. I have a couple of those bikes. They ride real nice. One is a mixte while the other is a regular frame. I believe they are internal-lugged frames that look like welded frames. The joints are too clean to be welded with the technology existing at the time. Mine are early '80's bikes with Swiss BB threads. The earlier frames had the French BB threads. The major difference is in the fixed cup. The French were "Right hand", while the Swiss are "Left-hand". Both bikes ride real nice. The mixte is getting a lot of pounding and it has held up. Those internal lugs are strong enough.
The forks are not chromed, so I figure both are the "AO-8/18" models or equivalents with slight component differences. One has integral hanger for rear derailer that took a SunTour with no problem. I had to part the Sachs-Huret that had been jammed into the rear wheel spokes. The frame has a slight bow in the right seat-stay, but it runs fine as the wheels line up close enough. They are pretty light (28#) and nimble enough for most demands.
Good luck,
BTW, search the archives for "carbolite"; you may find some good reads.

    White Puegot posted by Elvis on 6/22/2004 at 2:46:07 AM
Thanks, JONathan.
I didn't want the bike at first, the lack of lugs made me think it was junk [well, no bike is "junk", but I mean "inexpensive"..."bottom of the line", etc.] But I did want a Puegot... When I first got into vintage bikes the PX10 was the big deal, that and the old Italian rides... This ain't no PX10, but it is a Puegot! Maybe its as close as I'll get... I am glad I picked it up!
The only thing bugging me is the shifters. I like the Simplex -- I never used to but it's grown on me, so the derailiuers are fine... I even dig that cool winged logo and the push-rod front derailiuer mechanism. But the stem shifters bother me; I prefer downtube shifters or bar ends. Having the shifters so close in, and high up, makes for uncomfortable shifting and, to my mind, gives the rider less control. Having dislocated my shoulder in a bicycle mishap just a month ago I am naturally concerned, so my desire to replace the shifters is not just for aesthetic reasons [although stem shifters also don't look as cool, either].

That, and I'd love to throw on Aluminum cotterless cranks

    White Puegot posted by Elvis on 6/22/2004 at 2:46:08 AM
Thanks, JONathan.
I didn't want the bike at first, the lack of lugs made me think it was junk [well, no bike is "junk", but I mean "inexpensive"..."bottom of the line", etc.] But I did want a Puegot... When I first got into vintage bikes the PX10 was the big deal, that and the old Italian rides... This ain't no PX10, but it is a Puegot! Maybe its as close as I'll get... I am glad I picked it up!
The only thing bugging me is the shifters. I like the Simplex -- I never used to but it's grown on me, so the derailiuers are fine... I even dig that cool winged logo and the push-rod front derailiuer mechanism. But the stem shifters bother me; I prefer downtube shifters or bar ends. Having the shifters so close in, and high up, makes for uncomfortable shifting and, to my mind, gives the rider less control. Having dislocated my shoulder in a bicycle mishap just a month ago I am naturally concerned, so my desire to replace the shifters is not just for aesthetic reasons [although stem shifters also don't look as cool, either].

That, and I'd love to throw on Aluminum cotterless cranks

   RE: White Puegot posted by JONathan on 6/22/2004 at 4:53:52 AM
Yes, the PX-10 and similar models with Reynolds 531 tubes (see "Cycles RetroPeugeot" web pages) are fine machines. I prefer the "UO" series because they are cheap to pick up, or at least they were cheap, they ride real nice and I am not afraid to bust one running offroad. I believe the PX-10 was a purebred racer. I rode one once and it was very quick and nimble, especially with those tubulars. You can be retro enough with a nice "UO-8" fixed up. The cottered cranks are a simple enough do. Read Sheldon Brown's excellent article on the refit procedures for French bikes.
The BB cups are thinner which means that a regular length spindle for cotterless (ISO) cranks will not leave enough thread beyond the cup for the lockring to fasten down. This is solved by using a longer spindle, like Sugino "S-5-S", which works for the same purpose, but for a different reason, on Italian conversions. In Italian bikes, the BB shell is 70mm (and some ancient Raleighs, too), which makes the longer spindle necessary. I did that on my Bottecchia. For shifters, you can use barcons or downtube shifters. I dig those Simplex logos, too. What size frame is the Peugeot?
Good luck, Elvis. I just came off a 15 mile run this evening on my Peugeot mixte. No bike in my stable handles as tight on technical moves. It is modified with high-rise bars, short pedals and "gentlemen" alloy rims. Not a fast bike, but very nimble...too nimble sometimes. It takes some practice to dial this one, but it amazes me what I can do with it. MTB's have nothing on it, except they are tougher.

   RE: White Puegot posted by Elvis on 6/22/2004 at 1:14:35 PM
Thanks! I will indeed check out Brown's info; i have read his site in the past and it has been both entertaining and useful. Got me into fixed gear bikes, heh..

By the way, the bike rides nice enough, took it for a cruise round my neighborhood. Won't be fit for a long ride until i get new tires, though.

Once the cranks are removed, any suggestions on replacements? i am concerned the Simplex push-rod front Derailiuer won't reach right, and i want to keep the original derailiuers, though not the orig. shifters.

    White Peugeot posted by John E on 6/22/2004 at 2:11:16 PM
I hate stem shifters, particularly Simplex. My ca. 1971 UO-8, which I purchased new as a bare frame while I worked at Bikecology, has SunTour barcons, and my 1980 PKN-10 has the SunTour downtube levers which originally came with my 1970 Nishiki Competition. I also hate pushrod front derailleurs, including the admittedly worn-out Campag. Gran Sport which was original equipment on my Capo. (At least the Campag. cage modes slightly upward as it moves outward, unlike the strictly horizontal Simplex.) Both of my Peugeots have SunTour Cyclone rear derailleurs and Shimano fronts, which should tell you what I think of Simplex in general.

As for cranks, I have ca. 1990 165mm Sugino "aero" road cranks on the UO-8, geared 45-42 for commuting, and 170mm Sugino mountain bike cranks on the PKN-10, with 48-45-34 rings. Do this at your own risk, but I force-threaded a standard English/ISO fixed cup into the PKN-10 (Swiss) bottom bracket when I installed the Sugino crank and spindle, and the whole arrangement has served me well for several years.

Interesting UO-8 factoid: If you ever decide to replace those extremely long-rake original forks, be prepared for a small amount of toe-to-tyre overlap, which is a common feature among vintage track bikes and close-coupled road bikes.

   RE: White Peugeot posted by JONathan on 6/22/2004 at 11:21:48 PM
Cottered cranks as OEM on your Peugeot, Elvis, indicates to me that the rear dropout spacing is probably 120mm. My "carbolite" Peugeots have 126mm spacing for 12 speed hookups. You can still get a 6 sp. FW if it is the Maillard "Helicomatic" or SunTour ultra narrow models.
Otherwise, a 5-sp. will do fine. I like the larger 52T chainrings with a drop to 40 for the smaller ring. A SunTour 14-34 "perfect" 6sp. FW will provide an "alpine" gearing that is my favorite setup. I do not race, so the large gaps in the middle are OK, plus I tend to go low RPM by modern standards.
The choice of cranks is rather wide ranging. The Japanese kame the best for the buck. Sugino "VP" or "AT" is a good one. SR makes a nice one with 165mm cranks. I like SunTour "GP" with the 53T mainring. I say if it has to be ugly, do it on purpose, referring to the stem shifters. I really think those SunTour "power shifters" look awesome and they are easy to work with thumbs and inside of index finger. The rubber boot helps.
On my Peugeot mixte, I need the stem shifters, especially with the hi-risers. Most stem shifters are junk, iMHO. For derailers, I run Shimanos friction on the mixtes. The Shimano front fits the Peugeot pipe perfectly, no shims or other buggering is required. Of course, SunTour will go on there, but they are harder to track down in the after market, in my experience. The pushrod Simplex is strictly for restoration purposes. I fixed up a white Peugeot mixte from mid '60's ("UE-18") with all OEM.
Same with a blue "UE-8"; both include those chrome rigida wheels. They look real cool, but the ride is not, compared to the Nervar cotterless, alloy rimmed upgrades. Absolutely night and day, man. I may have an extra Shimano front derailer for French tubes.
Let us in on the results of your noble efforts. Good luck,

   RE:RE: White Peugeot posted by Elvis on 6/23/2004 at 3:50:55 AM
Thanks. Actually, I just switched to Campy friction shifters [clamp on downtube shifters, to be exact]. It actually works with the simplex, i know it is wierd but I did not want to use Shimano or Suntour as I have them on all my other vintage road bikes!
of course the downtube shifters had to be mounted a half inch forward of normal because the cable-stop braze ons that went with the original stem shifters were in in the way. Rides great.
I think I'll stick with a five speed rear wheel, though I'll probably find something with an Aluminum rim and qr axle. Same for front [alu rim and qr, I mean].
I just need to track down Sheldon Brown's site. Been there a lot in the past, but my computer is finicky these days, if I don't type in an exact web adress it says "cannot find server". Anyone have his url? I need that article on removing cottered cranks!

   RE:RE:RE: White Peugeot posted by JONathan on 6/23/2004 at 4:54:22 AM
Try this one:

   Thanks! posted by Elvis on 6/23/2004 at 1:09:41 PM
Thanks! it rides great, nice stable ride, handles good. I almost do not want to screw with the cranks, but I really can't abide cotters, I'm a vintage aluminum freak so far as cranks go... Oh well.
I will check out the link, hopefully I won't have to buy many new tools to do the conversion.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: White Puegot posted by Tom M on 7/9/2004 at 11:37:20 PM
Hope you don't mind a report about a Puegot 12 spd. I recently got from a friend for free - well not exactly free as I am cleaning up a couple of his mountain bikes. It was in his basement for years so in need of a cleanup, but after some polishing is beginning to look good. It is a lugged frame [black with yellow details] made of Reynolds tubing. The front and rear derailleurs are Sachs/Huret with Stonglite cranks. Not sure about the platform pedals but they have nice Christopher toe straps. The shifters are Huret Jubilee. The wheels are Mavics and the hubs are Maillard. The front forks are chrome with a bit of surface [I hope] rust. The brakes are Weimmann 610 center pulls . I haven't found anyone who knows its exact age but my local bike shop thinks its mid 80's. I have asked them to go over it and replace worn out parts like the brake hoods [but not the components ]Can anyone give me an opinion about this bike ?

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE: White Puegot posted by Tom M. on 7/10/2004 at 2:16:15 AM
I found out that the model of the black Puegot 12 spd. which I was asking about was a Pro 10. Year of production was 1985. Anyone have any comments on this bike ?

MISC:   How Long Will MY Bicycle Last? posted by: T-Mar on 6/21/2004 at 11:52:08 AM
The question of component longevity has been a frequent issue on this site. Recently, while researching another topic, I re-discovered an article by Jim Langley in the June 1992 issue of Bicycling that addresses this topic and provides lifespan guidelines, based on an average riding of 6,000 miles per year and reasonable maintenance.

1 month - 2 yrs: tires

3 months - 1 yr: chain

6 months - 1 yr: brake pads

6 months - 2 yr: handlebar tape

1 yr - 3 yrs: freewheels, shifters (indexed), brake lever hoods, cables & housings, toe clip straps, bottle cage

1 yr - 5 yrs: tubes, headset, hub axles, saddle

1 yr - 10 yrs: bottom bracket

2 yrs - 5 yrs: spokes & nipples, QR skewers, toe clips

3 yrs - 5 yrs: chainrings, pumps

3 yrs - 10 yrs: brake levers

5 yrs - 10 yrs: derailleurs, shifters (friction), pedals

Indefinite: brake caliper, crankarms, hub shells, frame, fork, seatpost, stem

The author cautions that the lifespan is determined by the riding weather, maintenance habits, storage conditions, rider weight, rider strength, cycling habits and component quality, (thus the wide ranges in his estimates). By "indefintite", he means that the components should outlast the original owner, provided it is properly maintained and not crashed or abused.

One final, personal disclaimer: The above views are solely those of the original author. They do not necessarily reflect my (T-Mar's) personal viewpoint and are presented for reader interest and discussion.

    How Long Will MY Bicycle Last? posted by John E on 6/21/2004 at 3:23:58 PM
Thanks for a very interesting post, T-Mar. Although I concur with much of the information presented, I tend to get longer service than Langley estimates. My Capo currently has a 1972 Brooks Pro saddle, on which I have ridden a total of about 50K miles/80K km, as well as (original) 1958 or 1959 Campagnolo downtube shifters, which still work beautifully.

(Crankarms, frames, and hub flanges are "indefinite," all right -- I have broken two of each, at various ages and cumulative mileages, while cycling.)

   RE: How Long Will MY Bicycle Last? posted by JONathan on 6/22/2004 at 12:11:50 AM
The mileage per year is close to what I run. I agree with those data, except for when I decide the part is beyond service. What is the "acceptable range of functionality" (my term) exceeded? Well, they have to get pretty bad by absolute standards for me to changeout the parts...like when they break. The saying; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" was my guideline for wear. Needless to say, this mind set had definite drawbacks and fortunately for me, I have taken more interest in changing out before things disintegrate. Especially true of brakes and chains, since most of my troubles have been these two things. One epiphany has been the realization that when something is adjusted properly and maintained it lasts longer and performs better. My numbers might be higher than the estimates presented. One area where I think the figures read low is with wheels. The newer alloy rims with reinforced eyes really are superior. If I keep the Durex or Campy wheels trued up, I suspect they could be close to the cranks or even forks, for longevity. That is assuming changing brake pads and keeping them clean from abrasive matter from the road. Brake cable housings that are the nickel-steel version have lasted for years on the bikes that have those. The cables need to get changed out, but those steel coiled housings are indestructable in normal wear conditions. High quality componentry will always be an economical choice in the long haul, IMHO. Those figures were for average quality components, I would guess. Steel chainrings will wear longer than the alloy makes as one exception. The steel good quality cranks are probably another exception.
Bottom line from my perspective is that charts are nice in a boardroom meeting, but one has to not allow the data to supplant careful observation. Like; "Oh, my tires are good for 6 months, so I don't have to worry about looking at them". The salient feature of the chart is that it provides a fairly good picture of the relative MTBF of various parts, which could be useful for a long tour in areas that have few bike shops.
Thanks for the post, T-Mar. What is your opinion of the chart?

   RE:MISC:   How Long Will MY Bicycle Last? posted by Pat lavery on 6/22/2004 at 11:02:35 AM
How would you ever wear out a bottle cage ? Unless it
was an extremely cheapo type.

   RE:MISC:   How Long Will MY Bicycle Last? posted by T-Mar on 6/22/2004 at 7:45:09 PM
Pat, I have seen several bottles cages that have broken where they are welded to the mounting bracket, and that includes good cages like Cannondale and Blackburn. Full water bottles, particularly the oversize models, weigh quite a bit. Add in the road vibration and you have the recipe for a fractured joint.

Also, don't forget to take into account that the original article is based on older equipment. A lot of the smaller parts we buy for our vintage bicycles tends to be newer designs. The new bottle cages tend to have more weld area. Even the modern, cheap cages are more reliable as they use platic mounting brackets that slide over the tubing, without any need for welds.

JONathan, as you state, the lifespans are only a guideline and should not surplant regular inspection and maintenance.

Most Olds Roads regulars will probably routinely exceed the majority of the expectations. Mainly, this is because most of you are above average in maintenance frequency and skills. In John E.'s case, I suspect it borders on meticulous, which can substantially increase the life expectancy for most of the components. Secondly, most of us are dealing with above average components, which will skew the results towards the high end.

Undoubtedly, we will all experience some cases of premature failure. This can happen for several reasons. Usually this is a quality control issue with the materials or manufacturing process. It could also be due to abuse or extremely hard use. For many of us, we are dealing with 2nd hand bicycles and it is extremely hard to predict when the components might fail, as we do not have an accurate indicator of the useage or maintenance. Consequently, regular inspections are of vital importance . I have yet to encounter a bicycle that was owned by the little old lady from Pasadena, who only pedalled to church on Sundays, but I'm always wary of sellers' claims of use and maintenance.

Like many of you, I have several bicycles that I alternate between, making it harder to judge the mileage. However, based on old days when I had one bicycle, most of my results are at or exceed the high end of the suggested lifespans. I like to think that these results are due to my maintenance habits and fluid pedalling style. However, like John E., Ive experienced some failures on "indefinite" lifespan components, particularly a frame, a few crankarms and a pedal axle. There are probably a few more, but these come readily to mind. These failures were either "chance" or directly related to the hard, race use. The frame lasted me 15 years and about 100,000 miles, but I was 25lb over the tubeset rating and 3/4 of those miles were racing or hard training. I can't complain with that kind of reliability.

The one item that I noticed Langley didn't tackle was tubular tires. For myself, I'd rate tubulars at 2 hours - 2 weeks life expectancy.

   RE:MISC:   How Long Will MY Bicycle Last? posted by Pat Lavery on 6/24/2004 at 3:38:32 AM
Speaking of component failure, I had a spoke disintegrate
on the way back from work yesterday. Throwing the rear wheel completely out of true . It made a very interesting
ride the rest of the way home. Now I wonder what else on
my 70's Gitane is living on borrowed time

AGE / VALUE:   The Hmong Are Tops posted by: Guest on 6/21/2004 at 8:34:46 AM
while, stalking, happens here, by cowards who molest, no telling where they are coming from, I have no intention on abandoning, the great friends I have in the Hmong, only this need be said,

not some cowardly trash behind a keyboard, just stalking,

New Mexico, those crimes of hate need to be paid for and nothing but their hate need be paid for.

I see, tom, etc. stalking remains, stalking someone,

I wish that the crime side, take all to police, that they provoke things, as in UNM, that there is no way, with these molestors, that some things, they do can be considered legal, and that is proper, for those of UNM, who would steal someone's education, job, and threaten with jail.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   What is this about? posted by Elvis on 6/22/2004 at 12:03:21 AM
I see acronyms and abreviations and what seems to be a political/sociological diatribe, but why is it here? Is it directed at someone on this board? Certainly it has nothing to do with bicycles! Are you accusing someone here of crimes?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   The Hmong Are Tops posted by Oscar on 6/22/2004 at 3:41:36 AM
That guy has been posting similar ramblings for a while, now, but his syntax and grammar have improved. Ran out of beer, I suppose.