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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

FOR SALE:   Ciocc 80s 52cm with Shimano 600 posted by: jesboogie on 6/3/2004 at 12:50:32 PM

copy and paste or search seller: jesboogie

Killer bike at a good price.

MISC:   chains posted by: JONathan on 6/3/2004 at 1:35:51 AM
What is the best chain for our VLW's? Today, I snapped another chain. This time on my Giant "nutra" (second string to the "traveler") just as I left to come on home. Bad new was I didn't have my TopPeak tool with the chain-breaker; just a lousy tire patch kit and pump. Fortunately, a big LBS was two blocks away on the main drag, so Iheaded over there and bought a Parks chain-breaker. My other one was getting a bit wiggly on the press outs, so it was all good. I asked the lead chap about the Pinarello (you listenin T-Mar, buddy?). He gave me this line that they had experienced "troube" with the European bike's frames. I wonder what that's all about. Probably they just want to sell what they have committed to, IMHO.
Back to the chain. I had noticed coming in that my chain was catching a bit, nut thought it was derailer adjustment, since I overhauled last weekend and you know how it goes. Gotta check it twice. So I kept runnin'. I looked down while pedalling and the chainring appeared to have a sideways blip as it cleared the front cage. Hmmm. I just checked the chainring. Still didn't register anything. I keopt runnin'. OK, so my mission was to divert to downtown to get some "special" soap that's only sold at this store. That done, I snacked up a slice of pizza and hit back to the route feelin' great. I got two blocks and the chain froze in the derailer cage. I looked down and noticed that one side of a link had snapped off. I must hgave been runnin like that, causing the chainring glitch and skipping for 8 miles! It picked a good time to go, but I really need chains that hold up real good. I seem to snap those and pedals. No bbent axles as I ride light on blacktop and treat my mounts with respect...during the week,that is to say. My MTB's are not counted in this survey of what breaks, just my loyal beaters. So, if anybody experiences this, you better take a hard look at the chain. I learned the hard way. Instinct kicks in to stop cranking instantaneously. I guess the chain link was bent before breaking loose form the pin and it was catching on the cage. Also the adjacent links were bound a bit from all this. Good thing was I shift better now as I beleive there was one too many links on the setup and the indexing was tempermental. All this is the Altus "Alivio" beater stuff. Works good and it'll be thgere when I come back.
Cheers, all
BTW, nice to read all the great posts from weekend.

   RE:MISC:   chains posted by JONathan on 6/3/2004 at 2:11:35 AM
My "Traveler" is fine, nust needs a complete takedown and service from runnin Fall, Winter, Spring. Lookin pretty sad, it is. They are great runners, for sure. Like all the branded 4130's made at the tailend of the bikeboom.

   RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by marc on 6/3/2004 at 2:09:57 PM
I've had good experiences with shimano chains, they are of high quality, seem to last for a good while and are definately affordable. Depending on which shop I go to I pay anywhere between 12.00 to 16.00 for a shimano chain. Not bad when you consider that a cheap chain is probably around 10.00 I also have no qualms about using chains from bikes that I part out, if they show little wear of course. I just make sure I give them a thorogh cleaning and lubing.

It is oh so important to keep up with chain maintanence as well, especially during winter. I went for a ride last winter, rode through a path with some salt with my girlfriend and cleaned off the bikes after the ride except for the chains. we didn't touch the bikes for a few weeks and when we back both chains were rusted and completely seized.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by JONathan on 6/3/2004 at 4:45:54 PM
Thanks, Marc. I'll try a Shimano on this "nutra" beater bike. I've only snapped the chains when inertia is greatest, like taking off from a stop. Knowing the weights stacked on the leg-press machine and comparing that to what comes down on the cranks, I'm amazed the chains hold up at all. There is such a thing as downshifting to a lower gear on take-off, but I'm lazy...and maybe paying the price.
I use existing chains if they pass the test John E. described for determining stretch limits. A couple of "x" on the workbench line up perfect. That 1/16" is a lot of slop, when I think about it. The quality used chain that is within the parameter may be better than a new one that's a step down in quality level. Out here on the inboard side of the ca. coast range, we experience less corrosion, except on the levee roads in the marsh, the muddy goop is loaded with salt that will go right through the paint if not washed off immediately on return. How long does a bike last ridden year round where there is CaCl(2) on the roads? Or whatever the salt is that they use to melt off the ice.
Those rusted chains clean up fine. Usually the rust is on the outside. I've worked some pretty rusted, froze chains with good end results. Mostly for the 3-speed chains that are beefed. The 10-sp. chains are tossed if frozen from rust. I'll get the Shimano chain, today. Thanks.
I picked up a can off Boeshield "T-9" for rust preclusion. I'll match it against my WD-40. I have an old saw blade that I;ll wire brush to shine in a couple spots. Apply "T-9" on one spot and the WD-40 on the other. After a few days outside, we'll see. Ogh, a third spot will be exposed with no coating, just as a control. Carpenter saws from the 30's rust if you leave them out one night! They don't even like to sharpen them, they're so hardened. The can was about $9 US, so compared to WD-40 at $1.79 US (on sale), the cost-effectiveness needs consideration.

   RE:MISC:   chains posted by RobA on 6/3/2004 at 6:51:27 PM

Where did you find the Boeshield?...I'll likely be in Portland for a bit this summer...maybe I can find it there... But, heck, maybe I better wait for your test results to see if it's cost effective...:)

I, too, try to salvage chains if they aren't too badly rusted...partly the economics, but also I find when you change parts of the drivetrain you can run into other issues...ie chain skipping, and other incompatibility issues... On the weekend I pulled together 1988/89 Trek 820 MTB/ATB...SunTour indexed drivetrain...I got it without the wheels...not too much of a problem, the bike was in great shape...the only issue was the freewheel...had to be a SunTour 6-cog (well, at least not Shimano...maybe there are other freewheels with the same spacing as SunTour...does anyone know?) Anyway, the first freewheel seemed OK until the test ride...seemed like it skipped on every cog...I then tried an older, about 1983, SunTour 6-cog...other than the gear ratios, it worked perfectly....though I'll have to find a newer one with better ratios... Either the cog and chain were worn the same amount or the first freewheel was too far gone...

   RE:MISC:   chains posted by RobA on 6/3/2004 at 6:56:45 PM
I should have added to my post above, "...or the first freewheel was not worn enough...it can work all different ways when you mess with the drivetrain."

   RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by JONathan on 6/3/2004 at 7:30:31 PM
Rob, I got thge Boeshield at the LBS, of all places. This stuff is filtering its way into the mainstream (so to speak). Used to be only at woodworking tool specialty stores, which might be another source. I am skeptical about it superceding WD-40, but with all the skuttlebut, I decided to give it a go. My cast iron table saw gets hammered by rust, being that it is outdoors, although covered with a plywood bonnet and a tarp. The WD-40 works OK as long as the treatment is once a month. Bike steel is a bit less rust prone, IMHO. The frames I have stored are all wrapped and touchup painted with a squirt of the "D" for good measure in all the tube opennings.
These are long term storage items...waiting for the right time to work them up.
Speaking of the TRek 820's. I fixed one up to give away to a kid who needed a bike. These bikes tough mountain goats; perfect for rooting around. I test rode the "820" on some hilly dirt trails for a couple of days, just to be sure it was going to saty together. With me onboard, it was definitely a test. Basically, a sound bike. I picked up an "850" which is getting fixed up as another give-away, but I am hesitant. May have to part with a Raleigh "elkhorn", instead. Maybe they'll forget about the Trek, but I may be stuck with the original offer. The 850 is very light! I wonder if it is Reynolds 531 steel tubes. I read somewhere that it was used by Trek on the earlier "850". THe Shimano "Deore XT" derailers are sweet. Too small a bike for myself, I keep saying! Trek used real good components on their ATB's, IMHO. The "820" had been crashed with a broken twister shift for the rear. I replaced it with a friction stick on the stem, worked fine in friction mode. Not one complaint, so far. Been two years.
I use "simple green" (biodegradable/nontoxic) to clean the chains after the rust is cleared out. I recommend not using strong solvents, as the semi-permanent lubrication in the rollers might be removed. What do I know? The oil soak bath after drying works great to relube. Phil Wood "tenacious lube" is my favorite for the road bikes. It's $$, but really works, especially if you let the bike sit for a while, the lube is still there when you start up.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by Derek Coghill on 6/3/2004 at 11:18:44 PM
Hmmmm.....bent BB's sometimes occur on brand-new bikes (voice of experience) so don't assume it's your treatment of them.

I stuck an old sloppy second-hand chain on the Schwinn single speed; The front is a 52t and the rear is an 18t, it's well oiled and seems to be ok. Sorry for lack of corroboration!

I use 3-in-1 oil (light machine oil) for chains. I don't like many of the sprays currently available, although Silkolene motorcycle chain lube is good. Don't use "chain wax" as it doesn't penetrate.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by JONathan on 6/3/2004 at 11:58:48 PM
It may be due to chance, but the probability seems low. You know when something isn't perfect, a stress test is likely to make the problem surface. Problam is, you can only "see" so much on a chain. The measurement foir stretch limits is an excellent diagnotic tool for my cuase. At least it gives a quantitative reference. I have few troubles with those 1/2 inch chains, like on the 1-3 speeds.
I think I snapped one a long while back as a kid. "Chain Wax" works for me with my motorcycle, but have to apply it almost once a week. I had an old tube of Harley-Davidson chain lube that worked the best and for a long time. It's all used up. Problem for me, is not the chain breaking, but the anticipation of when the next one will occur, and under what conditions...I always think the worst.
Well, maybe that Shimano chain will be the answer. Definitely not going the cheap route, but they can go to $60 and more! Those wobbly chainrings are tough on chains, to be sure. A guy has to just shrug it off and get back out there.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by JONathan on 6/4/2004 at 12:11:50 AM
"3-in-1" works great. It needs weekly treatment. The #30 wt. soak works the best, but it takes more effort initially, and I have to keep wiping down for a couple days on the road, but then things go trouble free for a goodly time. The oil keeps squeezing out onto the chain external surfaces. After about three wipe-cleans, it's fine. I guess if one rides enough miles, things happen. Maybe it is chance.

   RE:MISC: chains posted by jack on 6/4/2004 at 3:42:42 AM
A re-think should be made of the idea that starting in a lower gear puts less stress on the chain.

   RE:MISC:   chains posted by P Lavery on 6/4/2004 at 4:06:41 AM
All of the comments make me wonder , How well will the newer skinnier chains for eight, nine, and ten speed rear cogs hold up versus the older five and six speed chains ?
I've never had a chain fail on me, but then I'm a nut on
preventive maintenance and try start out in a lower gear ratio

   RE:MISC:   chains posted by T-Mar on 6/4/2004 at 1:19:54 PM
JONathan, in my experience, when LBS personnel use general terms like "problems with European bikes", they are usually scamming you. Probably it's something more along the lines of the Euro gaining too much on the US dollar, and eroding the profit margin. If a person won't provide specific answers to my questions, I'm a sceptic.

Personally, I can only ever recall breaking two chains, though a number have come through my basement and I've re-assembled a few along the roadside, for strangers. Most of these failures have related to modern, narrow chains, that had been removed and re-installed by the owner. In these cases, the owners chose any old link to break and re-assemble chain. Most modern chains are so narrow that the ends of the pins are peened so they protrude the aboslute minimum from the outer plate and still retain good fit with the plate. Using anything but the dedicated link and special pins for breaking and re-assembly is an invitation to increased risk of failure. For your frequently ridden bicycles you may want to consider a Super-Link or similar product, for breaking and re-assembling the chain.

Theoretically, there should be no difference in the wear of 8/9/10 speed chains versus older 5/6/7 speed chain. The reason is that the wear occurs between the roller and the bushing (or inside plate flanges on a bushingless chain). Thus, the wear zone is restricted to between the two inner plates and since this dimension is fixed for all 3/32" chain, the wear rate should be similar, assuming the chains are made of similar materials. The new chains are narrower only across the outside of the outer plates, so that they fit the narrower spacing between cogs. I measured the dimension between the inner plates on some old 5 speed chains versus modern 9 speed SRAM and Shimano chains and found the overall variation to be less than 0.010" (0.25 mm). In general, the modern chains were narrower, but I attribute this more to modern manufacturing techniques being better able to hold a closer tolerance to the nominal value.

As for lubrication, everyone has their own personal favourites. I like Tri-Flow for general riding and Phil Wood for the ATB. However, as long you lubricate regularly, based on your riding frequency and condtions, it really doesn't matter what you use. The exception being WD-40 and similar products which are actually protectants as opposed to lubricants. However, the other bad habit I constantly notice is over-lubricated chains, smothered in oil. This attracts dirt and and increases wear. Once the oil has penetrated into the links, take a rag and wipe off the excess. Oil is only effective on the inside of the chain.

I'm not familiar with Boeshield T-9. The best protectant that I've encountered is a product called JB 80, made by Justice Brothers. There motto is "twice as good", which I suppose is a reference to 80 being twice as good as 40 (as in WD-40). The can was given to me my a buddy who works for the CN Railway. Apparently, it's their product of choice.

   RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by T-Mar on 6/4/2004 at 3:55:13 PM
That should read wear occurs between the pin and bushing. While there is also wear between the roller and bushing, it's not a factor when measuring the chain stretch, unless you use an on-chain device, like the Park unit.

   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   chains posted by JONathan on 6/4/2004 at 5:19:11 PM
Thanks, T-Mar. I had gone for a long time without a chain snapping, thinking my attentive maintenance and using higher quality chains (used or new) was the key. Now, I wonder if it was my fault when I pinned the chain back together. Maybe the pin was not pushed far enough through the other side. I just serviced the "nutra" two weeks ago, including a chin clean and lube. I just picked a pin and pushed it out, not realizing there may be a specific link. I have power links on some chains and there are the circlip types for the 3-speeds, but I thought some were uniform throughout. I'll have a real good look at the whole chain, today. Maybe there was a speciific removal link on it. It looks like the side of a link climbed over the top of the pin. But, I remember checking that the pin was clear above the hole. Curious event.
I know more about chains thanks to you.
BTW, That "trouble with frames" comment is funny. They have all these $2K+ road bikes to "move". Why would someone who does not even know which side of a bike to get on be looking at a $2500 bike?? New topic?

      chains posted by John E on 6/4/2004 at 9:26:54 PM
My random thoughts regarding chains:
1) I use SRAM PC-58s exclusively, since I have no 9- or 10-speed freehubs. I keep the PowerLink in my toolbag for emergency on-road repairs and assemble the chain on the bike in the traditional fashion, sans master link. I clean and lube the chains on the bike and disassemble them only to paint the frame or to replace the chain.
2) Small chainrings and/or long cranks increase the tension you can apply along a chain, promoting wear and increasing the chance of failure. A chain will last longer on a 53-50 / 14-26 half-step rig than on a 53-40 / 14-23, because, all else being equal, the chain tension is inversely proportional to the chainring diameter. The current misguided mountain bike MicroDrive craze, in which 20 to 42T chainrings are used in place of the traditional 28 to 48 (or 30 to 52 on road bike triples), is hell on chains. Reducing tooth count makes as much engineering sense as reducing spoke count on wheels.
3) Sheldon Brown's 1/2-percent chain elongation rule will protect you from most wear-induced chain failures and will make your cogs and chainrings last longer, as well.
4) There is nothing problematic or special about European bicycle drivetrains. (Exception: BBs with French or Italian threading can indeed self-disassemble on the road, but a bit of LocTite and torque will generally prevent this.) However, the more cogs one crams onto the rear axle, the steeper the chainline gets in the cross-chained ratios, and this is indeed hard on chains and chainrings.

   RE:   chains posted by Derek Coghill on 6/5/2004 at 11:00:57 PM
The chain on the single-speed came from a 21-speed MTB, the chainring from a scrap something-or-other roadbike, the rear sprocket from the box of bits (originally from an upright British roadster, I think). Don't know what that says for any of the components, though.

   RE:RE:   chains posted by JONathan on 6/6/2004 at 5:45:01 AM
I must admit, chains will never be viewed the same in my mind. Rather informative analysis, thanks, John E.
Derek, that's what is great about these bikes. They'll always be able to run with a bit of common sense application of simple mechanics and few spare parts from unrelated sources. The VLW's are overbuilt for the task, IMHO. Climbing a hill, pushing down hard on the crank just as the rear wheel hits a bump and nothing breaks! That;s what I call overbuilt. Even with a full trouring load, nothing breaks...at least not for a while. And this is a road bike, not MTB. The all-rigid MTB's are overbuilt even more. Components, such as the chain, are destined to fail, it is inevitable, depending on how hard they stressed and on their level of maintenance. I am pretty brave off road or on open blacktops, but running in traffic is where I get nervous about a "surprise". It's rough enough just keeping track of what goofy stuff they're pullin' without the added potential for a busted part working inot the mix. I'm looking for a PC-58 chain this week. Thanks, again.

AGE / VALUE:   CAMPY GRAN TOURISIMO posted by: Kevin K on 6/3/2004 at 1:09:39 AM
Hi all. I'm putting parts together for a Schwinn Sports Tourer project. These came fromm Schwinn with Campy Gran Tourisimo rear derailleurs. Are these good derailleurs? How do they compare with the Huret Luxe derailleurs? Also what Campy front derailleur and shifters are correct with the Gran Tourisimo? Thanks, Kevin

   RE:AGE / VALUE: CAMPY GRAN TOURISIMO posted by jack on 6/3/2004 at 4:38:36 AM
Kevin, are you familiar with http://www.geocities.com/sldatabook/contents.html

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   CAMPY GRAN TOURISIMO posted by Eric Amlie on 6/3/2004 at 2:13:29 PM
Kevin, the Gran Tourismo is a miserable shifting P.O.S. My '71 P15 Paramount tourer came with it and took it off as soon as I could. I replaced it with a Campy Rally which is not a a great der. either but a definite improvement over the G.T. Some of the later Sports Tourers used a Schwinn Approved "LeTour 300" rear der. which was a rebadged Shimano Crane GS. This is a pretty good derailleur and probably the one I would use if I were you. The Huret Dou Par or something like that is supposed to be one of the best wide range rear derailleurs ever made. I have no personal experience with them though. Not sure what the Sports Tourer had for a front derailleur offhand(see if Bob Huffords S.L.D.B. site has that info). It probably depends on the model year. My P15 used a Campy Record front der. and the usual Campy downtube shifters.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   CAMPY GRAN TOURISIMO posted by RobA on 6/3/2004 at 8:19:20 PM
Hey...Thanks for the info... I picked up a Rally in good shape for about $CDN5.00 ($US3.65), last week...I could see, at the time, it seemed to be Campy-inspired but I didn't realize it was Campagnolo, couldn't see that name anywhere on it...What was the time period for these ders??? ....from the look of it, it seems to be Campy's late 1970s idea of a touring derailleur???

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   CAMPY GRAN TOURISIMO posted by John S on 6/4/2004 at 4:37:58 PM
I've had a couple Sports Tourers cross my garage floor. I've kept one which I acquired in original form. It that that Campy GT derailleur, which is best used as a paperweight. Replaced it with the above mentioned "Le Tour", shifts great. Front is a Schwinn-labeled Huret, nothing special, but functional. Note the down tube diameter is smaller than commonly used 28.8mm, so you may have to shim another derailleur.

I also replaced those huge Schwinn stem shifters with bar-end shifters, SunTour Bar Cons which were labeled "Schwinn Approved". I like the Sports Tourer because it rides nicely, but also because of all the Schwinn labeled parts.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   CAMPY GRAN TOURISIMO posted by John E on 6/4/2004 at 9:31:31 PM
If I had a wide-range freewheel, such as 14-34, a good vintage SunTour V-GT derailleur would be my first choice, by far. Some of the Shimanos and Hurets are not too bad, but Campag.'s strength has definitely been in narrow-range or mid-range gearing, with 26 or fewer teeth on the largest freewheel/freehub cog.

   Campagnolo Gran Turismo posted by Steven on 6/5/2004 at 1:04:04 AM
The Gran Turismo was apparently designed for use on heavier sports bikes with a single front chainring. Not as many assume for cycletouring or lightweights! If you check out a Campagnolo catalog, you will see that they only offered a sinlge Gran Turismo gear lever, not the double needed for both front and rear derailleurs. In Italy,it was nigh impossible to buy an aftermarket Gran Turismo derailleur without the accompanying lever and single gear cable with full cable housing. The fact that it is heavy and rather clunky was therefore not primary in the design brief. As far as function in its foreseen application, it is actually one of the better derailleurs. It will shift well enough when there is no stress on the mechanism and will shift over virtually any range (Campagnolo claims 13 to 36 tooth in the back). It is also virtually indestructible and will easily outlast any Japanese derailleur ever built. It also keeps it settings more willingly than the Japanese derailleurs are wont to. The gear lever even has a special protective disk to prevent most accidental shifts, another demonstration of the intended market. Therefore for a sports bike where virtually all buyers would purchase the bike and never again visit a bicycle shop, it was just the cure! I wouldn't use it on a lightweight, nor on a touring bike, but for the intended target bikes, it was near perfect. Since I presently have a complete set of rear derailleur, lever and cable/housing up for sale on ebay (item 3680896869), I guess I am not supporting my auction
by nixing its use on many bikes, but to put down the derailleur is in my opinion wrong.

   RE:Campy Gran Turismo & Schwinn posted by jack on 6/5/2004 at 8:39:14 AM
I have not actually ridden my '71 P15 (15-speed) with a Gran Turismo but it is original to this bike and certainly unusual so I hesitate to change it. If I did it would probably be with a Rally if I could find one at a reasonable price.

All this talk of Sports Tourer's and Sheldon's site on these made me envious so I got a yellow '74 today for $50. I mainly bought it because it is rather bizarre compared to the usual euro or Japan vintage lwts. The Nervar crank, built-in kickstand, and fillet-brazed frame are unique. My local frame builder charges 800 and up for a new fillet-brazed frame (and its not even a Schwinn!).

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   CAMPY GRAN TOURISIMO posted by T-Mar on 6/7/2004 at 9:23:44 PM
I like Steven's aprroach of evaluating the component relative to intended function and it's one to which I adhere, however in this case the ultimate responsibility lies with the bicycle manufacture to select components which reflect the level and performance of the rest of the bicycle. If the performance of a component is not up to par with the rest of the bicycle, the customer will not be satisfied and the complaints are legitimate. Therefore Eric's comment is completely valid when taken in the context of using a Gran Tourismo on his Paramount.

Looking back through my old catalogues I found three references to Gran Tourismo on high end touring bicycles, and one mention on a mid level bicycle, but no mentions of it on entry level, sports bicycles. Is it really an entry level derailleur? Frankly, it always struck me as a wide range Valentino, so normally I wouldn't have expected it on high end bicycles. In the manufacturers' defence, there certainly was not much selection in European made, wide range derailleurs. European manufacturers tried to keep the components national in that era, for reasons of cost, delivery and nationalistic pride, so its not suprising to see the Gran Tourismo turning up on Atala, Bottechia and the like. And if Schwinn wanted to keep the touring Paramount all-Campagnolo, it was either the Gran Tourismo or offer narrower gearing. So, I can see why Schwinn initially chose the Gran Tourismo, but I can also appreciate why they soon switched to a Japanese, Schwinn appproved, wide range derailleur.

AGE / VALUE:   my memorial day posted by: marc on 6/2/2004 at 2:37:51 PM
I spent all of memorial day working on my bikes and it was great. I mainly worked on my two most recent aquisitions, my 1983 trek and my 1973 gran sport. I found a matching dura ace center pull caliper so I put those on the gran sport. It wasn't a front, so I had to tap out the center bolt but that wasn't too dificult. I decide to go all dura ace on the gran sport, well early dura ace, with a crane derailleur in the rear. I have to say, the shimano parts look pretty nice, although I couldn't get the crane to fit properly on the derailleur hanger so I had to use a claw.

The trek got the suntour superbe derailleurs that were formerly on the gran sport and I also put on some suntour bar end shifters (thanks again jonathon). the original wheels from the trek were shot. I tried to true them but some of the nipples were trashed, and the rear rim may be warped. I'll try to rebuild them, the hubs still look good. I was tempted to keep the original trek look and put the titan matrix wheels I have on the gran sport on it but I like the black annodized wheels on the raleigh. I had a set of araya 27 x 1/8 wheels with suzue sealed hubs so those went on the trek.

Around 9pm I decided to take the trek out for a ride. I went to the path that runs along the lake shore. This guy passed me on a bike as I was crossing the street heading onto the path and I decided to see what the trek could do. I caught up with the guy and chased him a bit. It was fun. We pretty much sprinted for about 8 miles. Not all of the path is lit so it was definately a rush to fly along this path barely being able to see the person in front of you. I chatted with guy a bit and he was riding some brand new specialized bike, I forget the model. He was surprised I was able to keep up on my steel steed. I wanted to keep going but unfortunately I didn't tighten the seat clamp bolt very well and after I hit a bump the seat dropped down and I was left with my knees practically hitting my knees and my seat swiveling around when I pedaled hard. I guess there's something to say about QR levers. Although it wouldn't have been an issue if I had tightened it properly.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   my memorial day posted by RobA on 6/2/2004 at 7:07:11 PM
Gee...that sounds exactly like what I consider an ideal day...:) The first summer (more or less) weekend up here in BC was the previous one...Victoria Day...celebrating the Queen's birthday (apparently)...I pulled together my late 80s Cramerotti (Campy/SLX tubing)...my 'curb-diving' find of the year during the spring clean-up days ...mainly all I had to do was re-grease and throw on a wheelset (sometime ago I bought a nice tubular set...I think I paid $CDN60, or there abouts (Campy Record...Wolber Profil20...one good tire and I had to buy a second tire)...I then went for a couple of short rides (45min/1hr)...beautiful ride...smooth crisp shfits...with friction dt shifters... like the proverbial 'hot knife thru butter'... I like the ad hoc friendly competitions, too...with someone with similar or slightly better riding skills and strengths...

What was the problem with the Shimano on the derailleur hanger?...something to do with the B-screw tab?...I had the opposite problem trying to fit a SunTour to the hanger on a mid 70s Gitane TdF...I 'settled' for a 1980 or so Shimano 600 on an otherwise SunTour drive train...

   old vs new posted by John E on 6/2/2004 at 8:19:17 PM
As Marc has rediscovered, the performance difference between a good old road bicycle and even the most expensive new one is minuscule. Weight matters only when you are climbing or accelerating. The most important component is still the person sitting on the saddle.

   RE:old vs new posted by marc on 6/2/2004 at 11:17:11 PM
The problem is with the tab, I couldn't get it to sit in the hanger at the right angle. The claw solved that luckily although it doesn't look quite as nice. It takes away from the beauty of the derailleur a bit.

These classic rides are definately far from obsolete. I think we all prove that when we hit the road. I've always wondered if it would be possible for someone to compete at the pro level with a modernized classic bicycle. I would think that it would make sense to train occasionally with a slightly heavier steel bike and then hop on the $10,000 bike.

   RE:RE:old vs new posted by Gralyn on 6/3/2004 at 5:08:53 PM
My holiday weekend: first opportunity, first priority, the number one thing on my mind - to get on a bike and ride. The weather was beautiful. I couldn't wait to take out the newly re-furbished Bottecchia. I had only ridden it around the block so-to-speak, and had worked a lot of the bugs out - and made necessary adjustments. But, it never fails - when I get out on a longer ride - other issues appear - requiring additional adjustments, etc. But, fortunately, there was nothing that was a show-stopper. I did have the screaming brakes issue. But other than that - it was great! I rode as much as I could over the weekend. Unfortunately, it started raining - and I didn't get to ride as much as I wanted.
I met a few new bikes on the road. I never gave it much thought.....but come to think of it.....I do occasionally meet other riders......but I don't ever remember coming up on any riders....and no riders have come up on me. That's weird. Maybe I'm always going the wrong direction....and just the right speed?

   RE:RE:RE:old vs new posted by JONathan on 6/3/2004 at 5:48:36 PM
There are several top biking routes near our digs. One in particlular is a hilly loop up to the foothills and back. Part way is a bike path which is quite beautiful to run. Although one can easily route to the coast jsut on the other side, I mostly go to this resevoir area and turn around. There's a pit stop where evryone seems to stop for something cold to drink. Fishing bait, homemade lures specific to the resevoir and lots of snack stuff on cheap metal racks. Being at a crossroads, the spot is perfect for a stop. I have seen the "pros" dust me on the way up and later I occasionally end up at the "hole" where they express some degree of respect for my attempting the run with my antiquated steed, and I, likewaise, am amazed at the bikes some ride. The make-believers are too aloof it seems, but they don't appear to know much about the bikes they ride, anyway. They are fun to pass on the hills or straights. But, point is, there are many more riders out there, it appears. True, most are rec-riders or "pros", but I started out as a rec. rider until I realized that biking was an excellent way to go anywhere within a 20 mile radius. It forces a little planning on my part, but during one commute, I was able to get there only a few minutes later riding a bike, as opposed to driving in the stop'n go traffic up the two main drags connecting the freeways. Of course, this was after working out a complex route to avoid traffic conditions. Back to the resevoir run, the crowd thins out the further up you go. Test your metal, so to speak. It gets rough if you go all the way to the skyline, like the "pros". I turn at the dam, after they've passed me and headed for the summit. By the time I work my way back to the crossroads, approaching dusk, the pros are all the way back from the summit! Wow! That's moving along. Just when I thought I was pretty decent, too. There's always the pokes on $5K bikes to pass on the striaghts home, so Ican hold my head up by the time I hit the home stretch. It's all great fun, I have to say.

AGE / VALUE:   The Bicycle Gods Were Smiling! posted by: John R on 6/2/2004 at 4:50:45 AM
The bicycle gods were smiling yesterday when I visited one of my local thrift stores. Over in the corner was a white bike that looked like it had some miles on it, but something caught my eye. Perhaps it was the Campagnolo crank, the Campy derailleurs/shifters or the Raleigh head tube badge but it looked special. I knew it was a Raleigh because of the badge, but what model was it? At first glance I thought it was a repaint because of the chips and scratches. Closer inspection revealed a very faint “Raleigh” on the down tube. The top tube showed faint signs of a “P” on the right side and an “L” near the headset as the last letter of the model on the left. There was no decal indicating what kind of tubing the bike was made with and no other evidence of the model. Needless to say, for the Campy stuff alone, I struck a deal with the manager. It wasn’t until I got the bike home that I realized that I had just discovered a 1970 Raleigh Professional, and it’s my size! It is not completely stock, but what the hey, most of the original equipment is still there except for the hubs, rims and freewheel. I’ve been looking for one for I don’t know how long and wouldn’t you know the most exciting finds show up when you least expect them!!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   The Bicycle Gods Were Smiling! posted by marc on 6/2/2004 at 11:18:50 PM
heck of a find, definately beat anything I've ever found at a thrift store. Best thing I've picked up was my mint bianchi brava. Keep those finds coming, they'll inspire us not to just pass by those stores, or garage sales on the way home.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   The Bicycle Gods Were Smiling! posted by RobA on 6/2/2004 at 11:37:11 PM
Terrific...I agree...you never know when you'll find that 'prize'...but, of course, you need to be able to recognize it when it's in front of you...my approach, which I've stated on several occasions to keep increasing my knowledge base, and then just go about the search process in a fairly relaxed and casual way ...I periodically check out various places and from time to time I find out about a new place...most of the time you don't find much...but I find intresting stuff often enough to keep me encouraged...I have a few good places for components...but most of my whole bikes I got for nothing...spring clean-up weeks or for real low $$... I'm amazed at what people throw out these days...often with the spring clean up weeks, it's probably 'Mom' chucking out 'Junior's' old road bike that he hasn't looked at in twenty years...'Junior probably now being a 40-year old with a couple of teenaged kids, a mortgage and a whole lot of other things to take up his time...:)

AGE / VALUE:   Camel posted by: Gralyn on 6/2/2004 at 2:15:22 AM
Ever heard of a "Camel" bike? It was a ladies....looked pretty old....but did look more bike boom....like early 70's....and the components weren't very good. Looked like the typical old lightweight. I had just never heard of that brand.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Compania posted by: Gralyn on 6/2/2004 at 2:09:32 AM
I spotted another old lightweight today....I see on the tubes...."Compania"....something like that. It kinda sounded Italian....so I'm thinking...maybe this is an old Italian job. Closer examination revealed: made in Japan. It was Japanese....with the Japanese components. It had Maxy cranks...The brake levers even looked like the old ones that came with my Atala.

It did have a nice set of Araya alloy wheels with QR front and rear. Nitto bars and stem, decent set of old retro alloy pedals, too.
....just another in that long, long list of Japanese lightweight brands.

Anyone ever heard of this brand?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Compania posted by T-Mar on 6/2/2004 at 4:10:39 AM
I believe that's "Campania". As I recall, they were a typical Japanese manufacturer, with a wide range of models. I believe I have some'70s boom period road tests, if you have a model name.

     CAmpania posted by John E on 6/2/2004 at 2:45:17 PM
Yes, T-Mar has it right. The Campania Pro wasn't too bad, but they had a series of unremarkable lesser models, as well.

AGE / VALUE:   bottecchia vintage lightweight posted by: sharon on 6/1/2004 at 9:43:57 PM
I'm curious. I just had my childhood bottecchia refurbished for sentimental reasons. I haven't ridden seriously - those bikes were just for show back then - but I think this bike has real character and I'm looking for a challenge that won't beat up my knees! Does anyone know anything about 1970's Bottecchia road bikes? I'm anxious to learn more about mine!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   bottecchia vintage lightweight posted by JONathan on 6/2/2004 at 12:15:54 AM
The "Giro D'Italia" was high-end road-racer. Mine is the "tourer", I think. There were a couple of others; "DeLuxe" and "Special" which were nice. Mine is a big dog. You want fenders, you got fenders. You want 28" wheels, you got 28's. Handles righteous in hills. I snapped a chain on the steepest road here in the coast range (Ca.) pressing hard...seems the frame is very effiecient transferring the force to the rear...something had to give. I switched to an "alpine" gear set; which is say that the main ring is 52 and then a big drop in teeth for the small ring. The Japanese touring derailers can handle the 32 and 34 large cogs, which give a granny for a bailout gear.
You give up some selection in middle gears, but that's OK, if you save knees by running lower gears. My style is more "masher" than "spinner". The former style being harder on knees. When I get a bit of patelar tendonitis, I know it's time to rev up with lower gears for a while. Fit is critical, as the knees can get flexed way too much if the frame is too small or seat too low. It's a trade-off game. My Bot. likes to get going fast where things get real smooth. I would say it is for an experienced rider. You'll be amazed how fast you can reel in the pokes on the staights, but mine is abit hard on knees if I get carried away. The lower gears help and I keep the rpm's up when I ride it.
The bike has an uncanny feel, hard to describe it. It is great that you fixed yours up, becuasze they really are superb bikes, IMHO. I run Japanese stuff on mine, because it's cheaper and works great. The only original stuff on mine is the "Carnielli" stem and bars and Altenberger brake levers with rear Universal "61" cp caliper. The front wheel was crashed with snapped front brake when I got the bike. The BB sounded like a coffe grinder outa control. I replaced the BB with a Sugino "s-5-s" cottered spindle that can handle the 70mm shell on most Italian mounts. The cranks rae some kind of steel jobs that only add to the overall rigidity of the propulsion. The rear derailer is a Shimano "crane" I put on to gobble chain with the apline gearing setup. They are superb for that purpose. Raleigh DT clamp with SunTour "power shifters" (the clicky ones) with SunTour front derailer. Everything is sweet. Just go easy on it and you'll be fine, IMHO. They are real bikes!
BTW, I could hardly beieve the forks weren't bent when I saw the front setup with spun brakes and twisted up rim with snapped spokes. Acceleration is excel;lent, ride under load is great, handles a bit dicey at slower speeds.
Good luck,

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   bottecchia vintage lightweight posted by JB on 6/2/2004 at 11:35:21 PM
Just to add some to the Bottecchia discourse...I have a low end model DE LUXE..has Balilla brakes...simplex gears..Gnutti hubs..rolls real nice...my teen kid has taken it over..I ride an old French bike..the Bott climbs better, weighs a little more..but definitely a solid bike...oh it has the fine old Carnelli stem...very classy

AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by: Lou Miller on 6/1/2004 at 4:42:26 PM
I spotted a 1960s Dawes Road bike on ebay, look to be in decent condition. Seller claims that this is reynolds tapered aluminum. Am I crazy or didnt reynolds introduce aluminum frames in 1998?
P.S. can anyone tell me how valuable this bike migh be?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by Ken on 6/1/2004 at 5:57:48 PM
This happens. Seller doesn't know that Reynolds is steel - confused with aluminum foil...

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by JONathan on 6/1/2004 at 8:15:09 PM
Off the Reynolds topic, I was interested in a post earlier on a D.P. Harris bike, so I looked up the "Rollfast" bicycle history. Due to steel shortages in WWII, aluminum was considered by D.P. Harris Mfg. as a frame material. There is, according to the history that I read, only one prototype existed. There is a picture of the cast aluminum frame in the article. Awesome bike, is all I can say.
The main reason that the bike was not produced was the weight and costs were greater than with steel. But, what a great bike...more like a work of art.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by JONathan on 6/1/2004 at 8:21:27 PM
I forgot to state a reason for the post. When were the forst Al-frames put in production...by any builder?
I have a Ra;eigh "technium" from probably '89/90 based on earlier post discussion...thanks T-Mar. I'm guessing eralier, possibly Cannondales?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by Gralyn on 6/1/2004 at 8:27:30 PM
I have a pic of one from the 30's.....but it wasn't regular production. I think it weighed 12 lbs.

I have a Technium.....I think they were like mid-80's.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by T-Mar on 6/2/2004 at 4:27:17 AM
The earliest reference that I have seen for an aluminum framed bicycle is a poster reported to be from 1895 - no, that's not a typo!!! It pictures a lady holding up the bicycle in one outstretched arm, while the cycle's owner look on admiringly and another lady looks on in amazement. The bicycle has a double top tube. The second top tube extends diagonally from the seat lug to the lower head lug. If I correctly interpret the advertising in the shop window, the claimed weight of the bicycle was only 8 kg! Of course, it appears to be a fixed gear, but that's still incredibly light. And that was a 109 years ago! Maybe we haven't progressed so far after all?

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by T-Mar on 6/2/2004 at 2:05:08 PM
Furhter to my post on the earliest aluminum frames, here are what I consider to be the significant dates in "modern" aluminum frame history:

1972 - Alan introduces bonded, aluminum frames. Vitus follows suit later in the decade, but I don't know the exact year. The frames are light, but most riders consider them insufficiently stiff. However, both marques go on to have considerable success with professional teams.

1975 - Klein introduces the welded, oversize aluminum frame. Light (ads claim 3.28 lb for 22.4" frames) and stiff, but very expensive.

1983 - Cannondale introduces welded, oversize aluminum frames for the masses. The complete bicycle costs only $600.00 US. Prior to this, the Klein frames were costing up to $2300.00 US, though in 1983 Klein introduced the affordably priced Performance frameset at $495.00 US. However, it's too little, too late, as Cannondale eclipses Klein in the oversized aluminum marketplace.

1985 - Trek introduces slightly oversized aluminum frames with tubing bonded to internal lugs.

1986 - Raleigh introduces the Technium line with a slightly oversize aluminum main triangle bonded to a steel rear triangle. The concept is to retain the appearance of a steel frameset, while bringing the cost down to entry bicycle levels. The entry level 440 model is only $250.00 US for the complete bicycle.

1999 - Pinarello introduces the Prince model with carbon fibre seat stays bonded to an aluminum frame. The use of carbon fibre permits a stiff rear triangle while damping the road shock.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by JONathan on 6/2/2004 at 4:57:21 PM
WOW! Thanks, T-Mar (Tom). Learning about history of lightweights is never ending. I have some cool posters with art-deco motifs that really inspire me to ride. The straight pictures just don't capture the imagination like those vintage posters, IMHO. One is for "Velo-Sport" shows a guy racing against a locomotive. Looks like a fixed gear bike. This goes back to the '30's. A rich history, indeed. I am constantly amazed by what is "new", really isn't.
I see lots of those C-dales coursing the main. Man, they did not take any chances with their frames. Kind of makes the durability factor academic. They bust pretty hard past me, too. A TB AL "technium" been riding really goes. It is my single Al framed mount. I have ridden a FS Giant "rincon se" that has me befuddled, as I constantly try to "correct" for the road, while the front shocks are deflecting...I decided that it's either got to be "rigid" or "suspension" for this putzer.
$250 US is incredible! If my "technium" is similar to the "440", it seems like a lot of bike for the buck. Ican tell big differences in a "varsity", say, versus a '80's 4130 "traveler" (or similar species). This is direct experience. However, it is not so great between a "technium" ($250) and my Bianchi "limited" from the same period, or even the Team Fuji. There are differences that are possibly not realized, but from just riding, it escapes me, why pay more? Not to misconstrue, I really dig all the subtle craftsmanship and "art" that goes into the fancy bikes, but I am speaking only of performance issues when comparing.
I'm afraid to run the Bianchi, because it might get dirty or worse...scratched! Thanks for the history lesson. I saw a Pinarello (maybe a "prince") hanging from a LBS ceiling. It had curved tubes, looked fast, too. Exquisite bike, for a modern mount.

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by T-Mar on 6/2/2004 at 6:01:23 PM
JONathan, I enthusiastically agree with your assessment of bicycle posters. I have a collection of about one hundred original and reproduced posters. However, I believe the Velo-Sport poster that you are referring to is actually from 1970. It's a very famous bicycle poster by David Lance Goines, that he produced for the Velo-Sport Bicycles store in Berkeley California. I can appreciate your confusion, as the artist was obviously influenced by Art-deco and Bauhaus styling of the '30s. Or maybe I've taken things out of context and tyou were referring to a '30s style? If so, please accept my apology. The intial poster run was 3,000 with a subsequent run of 2,000 in 1972. There may have been additional, later runs, but my info stems from the copy I obtained about 1976.

Just to make sure we are referring to the same poster, the number on the steam locomotive is 1650 and there are two racers flanking the locomotive. Both are dressed in red, the one on the left having his head down and wearing a leather hairnet helmet, while the one on the right has his head up and is helemtless. The poster size is 18" x 24".

Yes, the Pinarello Prince is a very nice bicycle. I have a 2001 model equipped with 2003 Camapagnolo Chorus components. It's my only bicycle from the current century.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by JONathan on 6/2/2004 at 6:28:30 PM
Yes, Tom. Same poster as you described. It's been a while since I had the poster out of wraps. Speaking of those Pinarello road racers. A Pinaarello wisked right by me, today, on the road. Busy traffic section of city, too. This guy looked like a TDF rider, not just suited up, but really moving like a pro. The bike was a standard double triangle; silvery gray paint. Kind of a blur, but the stuff looked Campy.
What a coincidence that the discussion here would parallel what has to be my first encounter with a Pina on the road. Last week, a De Rossi post also coincided with my encountering a De Rossi, which are few and far between views in my travels. Just as you find the best bikes when you are not hunting, this situation seems a bit supernatural! More to these VLW's than we think? I know that I am constantly amazed and amused by what
I experience, and under what conditions things happen.
This LBS in a tiny shop that I have to hunt to find, again. He had a fixed gear bike that was a museum piece. I have a 10 mile stretch to search. Thise kind of stuff you rarely spot while driving, I was biking this area during the Sea Otter Classic road race.

   DeRosa! posted by JONathan on 6/2/2004 at 6:46:06 PM
It was; "DeRosa", not "DeRossi". I think the "Rossi" post added to my confusion. That goes to show just how rare the DeRosa spottings have been for me; can't even remember the spelling!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by RobA on 6/2/2004 at 11:25:52 PM
FWIW... I just wanted to throw in a few comments about aluminum...to us it is a rather utilitarian, prosaic substance...but to the Victorians it was a rather amazing metal...I remember sometime ago seeing some photos of military helmets...I think it was from the Franco-Prussian War era ...circa 1870...aluminum had been incorporated into some of the officer's fancy dress helmets, because of its preciousness, and its 'gee-whiz' factor. I did some checking...metallic aluminum was first isolated in 1808...rather recent compared to metals such as gold, copper, tin, lead, etc...which were known since prehistoric times...well, ome of them, at least since before the Roman Empire... The first commercial applications for aluminum were in 1854...and at that time it was worth more than gold....it is an amazing metal...polishes up with more reflectively than mirror glass, can be effectively alloyed with other metals, retaining many of its positive features and becoming stronger....but like lots of other things, we now take it pretty much for granted....

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by RobA on 6/2/2004 at 11:45:55 PM
...that should, of course, say, "...more reflectivity than mirror glass."

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Dawes Tourer posted by Derek Coghill on 6/3/2004 at 11:25:34 PM
30s aluminium bikes.....that'll be the Caminargent and its relatives? The "argent" is the top-of-the-range lightweight, but there were others built along the same lines.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rossi Chrome Frame posted by: Keith Jackowski on 5/31/2004 at 5:19:30 PM
I picked up this bike a few years back and would like more info on it. Does anyone know how or where I can find info on this? Having a hard time.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Rossi Chrome Frame posted by T-Mar on 6/2/2004 at 4:31:50 AM
Keith, after some thought, I was wondering if maybe you meant a Rossin Cromor frame. When Columbus introduced their Cromor tubeset in the mid '80s, many Italian companies introduced a "Cromor" model. I know Rossin did, and I have some 1988 catalogue info on it.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   502 frame tubing , Chro-mo or ???? posted by: robert on 5/31/2004 at 4:32:38 AM
Is the 502 tubing used in Raleigh frames chromo or a grade of "carbon" steel?


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   502 frame tubing , Chro-mo or ???? posted by Gralyn on 5/31/2004 at 11:56:46 AM
I believe it's straight gage Cro-Mo.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Sportabout posted by: dent on 5/31/2004 at 3:01:18 AM
At first sight I thought it was a Varsity but it turned out to be a Sportabout this 10spd from 1976. It has a Suntour "Seven" rear derailliur, a "Continental" style fork not flat, single brake levers(no inside pull lever). I have not been able to find any info on Schwinn's Sportabout. Does anyone have any knowledge on this model? I couldn't pass it up was it for a $1 asking price.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Sportabout posted by Gralyn on 5/31/2004 at 12:00:56 PM
I have one. It's heavy, heavy, heavy! It's pretty-much the bottom of the line-up, too. But, it's also pretty old....and if it's in pretty good condition.....and for only $1 - you can't go wrong.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Sportabout posted by Oscar on 6/2/2004 at 2:54:05 AM
I think it's basically a Chicago built Continental frame with Suntour components. Schwinn never ran out of new names.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Schwinn Sportabout posted by dent on 6/4/2004 at 6:11:57 PM
It did resemble a Conti more than a Varsity, fork tubes, aluminum handlebars, Suntour Seven? rear derailleur, the bike was painted a pale yellow with a black Schwinn headbadge.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh International posted by: tarbucks on 5/30/2004 at 10:01:35 PM
We're now dusting off my dad's Raleigh International - 1976 I believe as there is a "76" before the serial number (WK60....). It is all Campy I believe (Nuovo Record) but it's not in great shape - the paint is scratched and there is some rust. I'm new to this site and would just like some general impressions. I'm fixing to clean it up (but not overhaul it) and sell it as it is a bit too large for me. One question is how best to clean up the rust on the paint surface - I've read through the discussions on rust but most seems to pertain to cleaning it off chrome. Also, I haven't seen many of these for sale in my searching and wondered what kind of market there is and what sites (Ebay or more specialized sites?) would be best to sell it. I'm sure it will need to be overhauled with new tires added, but I was surprised as how smoothly it runs. Your input would be appreciated - thanks!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh International posted by JONathan on 5/31/2004 at 6:16:03 AM
Interesting problem; getting rust off with minimum paint disruption. I use a variable speed Black & Decker RTx rotary tool with a special rubberized discs. I couldn't find these at any hardware suppy, but a hobby shop or craft/art store may carry these attchments. My brother gave me the ones I have. One is a disc with a double taper tip that works great to spin off rust with a nice feathering into good paint. I found lower speeds (#2, whatever rpm that is) work with most control. Just get the frame stable and ease into the surface with the disc at acute angle...almost parallel with the bevel. You see the rusty dust fly off the steel with no abrasion of the steel and no scratching of good paint. Another disc is conical shaped and another is a wheel with flat edge. I would mess with a beater frame, first. This will build confidence or you can decide if you like the results before moving ahead.
Matching the paint is tough, but I can get it close enough for commuter/beater mounts. Mainly, it gets rid of that corrosive rust and prevents recurrence with enamel coating over the exposed metal. Auto spray paint can match some colors...like white or black real good. I have several frames prepped for longterm storage using this technique. Works for me. Nice bike. Hope you can have good results, as I have. I will try a full paint job, just for fun. I am much more comfortable with the mechainical stuff, but I am fortunate to have lots of artist assitance for thge paint schemes. It is no joke getting the correct hue, tonality and saturation of colors in the pigment spectrum. Good luck.
BTW, for technique, try bracing your hand on the tube so you can achieve fine control of the wheel.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh International posted by schwinnderella on 5/31/2004 at 8:15:54 PM
If you are planning to sell it leave it as is,most buyers enjoy cleaning up their finds and have their own prefered methods.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh International posted by jack on 6/1/2004 at 8:29:38 AM
I definitely agree to just leave it alone. Experimenting with cleaning methods often causes more damage as we have all done to one degree or other. Also, the time involved to do a good job isn't cost effective unless you have time to kill or it will be your personal ride. The best (only way IMO) to refurbish is to disassemble completely so one needs basic bike mechanic skills as well as bike tools. Internationals are nice bikes that sell in the hundreds either on ebay or sites like this that cater to collectors.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh International posted by Douglas on 6/1/2004 at 1:37:55 PM
There are several things you can do to get your dad's vintage bike ready for sale.
Go to your discount department store and buy the cheapest spray paint you can find. Remember, it's just a bike so close enough is good enough in your color choice. Don't bother cleaning or disassembling the bike but scrape most of the decals off including the paint underneath down to the bare metal. Spray the paint on any rust and any other bits of the bicycle you think would look better covered with a thick layer of paint. Don't waste expensive masking tape, when you get some paint on the cables, components, wheels and tires etc, just smear what you can off with a dirty rag.
Next, if you have some white first aid tape laying about, wrap it around the handlebars, the looser and wrinklier the better, it adds texture thus increasing grip. Loosen the nut holding the handlebars to the stem, rotate them 180 degrees, tighten the nut half way. Remove the front brake cable.
Then, remove that hard and narrow Brooks saddle and toss it in garbage. Replace it with the comfy seat from an exercise bike.
If it has not yet been done, you should align the forks. Get up to a good clip and decelerate by crashing into the front of your neighbor's truck. Replace front wheel with a 24 incher from some other bike that's just laying about in bits.
Lastly, find a location open to the elements and lay the bike down. Make sure the tires are flat. Find something to do for six or seven years. Then trip over bike and discover that it's a valuable collectors item. It's old and is worth lots of money. Prop it up against a tree and count off 25 paces, squint and judge the condition. Have your drinking buddy confirm that it is in very good condition.
Have your wife telephone someone interested in vintage lightweight bicycles and offer it for sale, knowing she can't answer questions about the bike. Wait while this guy drives thirty minutes to get first crack at this national treasure. Curse and threaten violence when this guy who "promised to buy" takes just a quick glance and goes to leave.
That's how you should sell your dad's bike.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh International posted by Ken on 6/1/2004 at 5:59:55 PM
Is it April again already?

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh International posted by Douglas on 6/1/2004 at 6:52:13 PM
P.S. The bike was in the condition as described above, needless to say there was no sale. It took an hour of my time and eight bucks in gas but worth a laugh (plus it was a nice drive).

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Raleigh International posted by jack on 6/2/2004 at 4:41:28 AM
Doug, I really like your first-aid handlebar tape idea but find it shows finger-prints after I clean the chain. That's why I prefer black vinyl electrical tape for the bars.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh International posted by RobA on 6/3/2004 at 12:21:48 AM
...be kind, guys...on my winter beater, I had to replace the bars after an accident last fall...I got...for nearly nothing ...a set of randonneur bars complete with stem, Shimano levers with good hoods and an excellent, flourescent yellow (for the dark nights) padded tape job...with one slight problem...the previous guy had sliced open the tape below the brake levers...evidently with a utility knife, but still found it too tough to remove....I taped it up with black vinyl electrician's tape...a 'stop gap' measure, until I could do something better...that black tape held up so well through the winter...it's still there, with no sign of unravelling...

Hey, at least it's not duct tape...:)

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh International posted by mike patterson on 6/3/2004 at 3:36:14 PM
use black hockey tape to retain that sticky residue for ever and a day.
Yes, many a wasted trip after vintage bikes....

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   Raleigh International posted by RobA on 6/3/2004 at 5:19:43 PM
I have a bike that did have that hockey tape over the handlebars...my early 70s Raleigh Super Course...covering up the original green plastic tape, which I could see through the odd tear... I had assumed the original tape would be in poor shape...the hockey tape eventually deteriorated enough that I decided to remove it...well, to my delight the green plastic tape looked near new...who knows why it was originally covered up...it must have been done not long after the original purchase...and the rate at which the hockey tape deteriorated after I started using the bike makes me think the bike probably sat used somewhere for years...:)

AGE / VALUE:   nice find posted by: marc on 5/30/2004 at 4:45:52 PM
I made another nice 5.00 find yesterday. It's a panasonic touring deluxe. The decals indicate that it is supposedly hand made, anyone familar with these bikes? is this the case? The frame is tange champion No. 2 tubing. It seems to be decent stuff. It's pretty light. I've heard this tubing compared to 531 I've also heard that it is basically 4130.

The brakes are dia compe 500 G sidepulls. A nice tripple crank, I was surprised that the freewheel is only a 5 speed, i would have expected 6. The derailleurs are shimano, rear is a long cage, the model name is not on either.

the paint job is really nice, kind of a rootbeer color with a little red in it. Some nice gold paint around the lugs. With the tripple crankset I'm tempted to put some knobby tires on it and make it my pseudo cyclocross bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: nice find posted by Warren on 5/31/2004 at 1:17:58 AM
Tange Champion # 2 is nice quality butted tubing but not quite in the same league as butted 531...Champion # 1? yes.

#2 is perfect for touring bikes and sport tourers where you can use a little more heft to prevent flexing under heavy loads...not unlike Columbus SP, I suspect.

Great sidepulls too. Sugino VT triple maybe? Sounds like a tidy bike...ride that puppy!

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   nice find posted by T-Mar on 5/31/2004 at 7:06:23 PM
Sounds like a late '70s model, so 5 speed is possible. The mid '70s model had chrome head lugs and centre-pull brakes according to a picture in an advertisement that I have. By the early '80s Panasonic had switched to number designations for most models, with a PT suffix for the touring bicycles. I have a late '70s road test for a Sports Deluxe model and it has Dia-Compe 500 side-pull brakes and a 5 speed freewheel, so it look like things add up to late '70s. Of course you can always check the components for date codes.

I've heard Huffy compared to Cinelli, but never favourably. You can compare any two items, but I basically agree with Warren's assessment. All the #2 frames I've ridden lack resiliency and seem somewhat "dead" compared to the Reynolds 531DB frames. While some of it can be attributed to other factors, I'm sure most of it is traceable to the tubeset itself.

Pseudo-cyclocross may be OK, but I wouldn't advise using it for real cyclocross. Not knowing the true pedigree of all the frame tubes, there is a possibility that the stays and/or forks may only be hi-tensile steel, which would not hold up for long in that application. Regardless, it's a nice find, and a bargain to boot!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:   "Screaming Brakes" posted by: Gralyn on 5/30/2004 at 3:17:11 AM
I rode my Bottecchia today - quite a bit - quite a few miles. I discovered I'm going to have to make some more adjustments on it....nothing major, though. But, the one thing that really stood out: The brakes. They literally "screamed". These have to be the worst squeaking brakes I have ever had. The rim brake surface is the dimpled kind - like on a lot of old Rigidas....but these are dolomiti (something like that)...and the dimples are a little finer. The rim surfaces are very clean - and so are the brake pads.
I go to apply the brakes....and heads turn!
I don't mind getting attention on an old classic bike....and I really wouldn't mind if my old classic bike turned some heads. But having heads turn because of this ear-piercing scream coming from the brakes.....

Should I try to replace the pads?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by leigh on 5/30/2004 at 10:25:05 AM
Hi Grayln
Have you tried 'toeing in' the brakes so that the front of the brake pad hits the rim slightly before the rear?
If the calipers are steel
you can twist them gently! with a screwdriver through the hole where the brake pad fits
Hope this helps

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Stacey on 5/30/2004 at 10:35:03 AM
This can be done CAREFULLY to alloy calipers too. Tho' I prefer to wrap a piece of rag or some electrical tape around the caliper are and ues an adjustable wrench to make the adjustment.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by JONathan on 5/31/2004 at 8:31:43 AM
Plagued with that sort of thing myself, I have taken keen interest in finding cures. One that works for me is taking the pads off the calipers and sanded with fine sandpaper 300>= that I have taped to the workbench. A few swipes evenly across the sandpaper gets that glazed surface to go away. The rims could benefit from similar treatment, only they can stay on the bike while spinning the wheel with a sandpaper scrap bent around a brake pad held against the rim, being careful to avoid scuffing the tires. I have found that keeping the tires inflated to maximum pressure helps with the front brakes. The forks can deflect into what seems like a harmonic vibration that wreaks havoc on the braking, including screeching. That has to be hard on headset bearings, too. These two procedures (three if you count the rim sanding) has stopped 90% of the noise and significantly improves the control. I would sand the pads, first and inflate the tires to max. and give a try on the road. If there is still some noise, then work the rims. Careful, avoid sanding the anodized alloy rims. This is for the vintage stuff, we're talking here. The newer rims brake better, anyway, so there isn't the propensity to screech up the neighborhood.
Good luck, just my 2 c's.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Gralyn on 5/31/2004 at 12:24:19 PM
I do get that harmonic vibration you're talking about. It vibrates through your whole body. I think I'll try a little sanding on the pads, and inflate the front tire a little better - and see how that goes.

   koolstop pads   posted by John E on 5/31/2004 at 11:08:47 PM
One added benefit of KoolStop pads is that their conical washers permit you to toe them in without twisting the arms of your brake calipers.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by RobA on 6/1/2004 at 12:03:16 AM
Thanks for the reminder, John E....I had sort of forgotten about that... my dirty weather bike, which I rode in to work this AM has developed a nasty squeal... I have some old KoolStops which I'll try to find tonight. I'm always a bit reluctant to start bending brake calipers...you would hate to weaken them by overdoing it. I know from your past posts your quite a fan of Koolstops. Yesterday, for about 45 minutes, I was on my Cramerotti (Columbus SLX) which is so equipped...those pads are terrific,smooth 'stoppers'...:)

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:    posted by Wings on 6/1/2004 at 6:32:29 AM
I sand pads.
I clean rims.
I put on Kool Stop pads and all is well!