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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by: Gralyn on 7/22/2004 at 5:02:14 PM
Today's good luck:

I had stopped by my favorite thrift store yesterday (favorite because it's been a good source for bikes) - I saw that the same old bikes were still there....nothing I wanted or could use - but I noticed several back on the dock - that had not been put out for sale yet. I'm thinking they will probably put them out today - so I stop by. Well, the bikes were still there - and had not been put out. I'm just too shy to just ask the manager about them - so I go on and look at some other stuff. I'm back in the area where I have picked up bike saddles, pedals, etc. from time-to-time.......I'm not seeing anything....then I look down to my right....at the end of my right hand....is a nice Maillard wheel with QR, and 2 tires. I only have to close my hand over the rim - that's how I happened on it - that close.....it was right in my hand - and I didn't even see it. Well, I closed my hand on it and carried it to the register. Great price!

Well, my luck was still working.....because when I walked out the door with my set of tires and new wheel.....I see that they are putting those bike out. I stay there and wait as each bike is put on the floor. There's a couple of Schwinn ladies models.....but no good alloy components...nothing I need......then I see a Centurion.....and I'm thinking I may get it......it looks pretty low-end, though.....but still a good bike. Then I see an old Hercules. It's green, has 1/2 step gearing, those long down-tube shifters.....Wrights leather saddle....I'm thinking I may get that one....but then I think....I already have one just like it....but in much better condition. Well, I'll wait and see what else shows up.

Finally, I see what appears to be a pretty nice lightweight....I see alloy cranks, hooded brake levers.....from the light blue color.....it looks like maybe a Raleigh Technium....then I see that it's a Motobecane. Just from a glance I could tell it was a decent ride. I said that was the one I was waiting for. I picked it up (very lightweight) and asked for a price. I got a really good price!!!!

It's a Motobecane Jubilee Sport. I would guess mid-80's.....probably 86 or so. Columbus tubing, Wolber Super Champion rims, QR hubs (not sure the make of hubs), hooded levers (but not aero), Phillippe Guidons, The rear brake cable is routed through the top tube. Appears to be Sun Tour gearing. The shifters are mounted on the top side of the down-tube, the 2 levers are adjacent each other. The seat stays are really small diameter - especially near the seat tube. The top of the seat tube is really thin tubing.

A Jubilee Sport - my guess....is not all that high-end or anything....maybe around the middle? I have no idea.

One thing I noticed: They went to the trouble to route the rear brake cable through the top tube. Well, then they tuned right around and put this badge-looking thing...raised lettering...kind of like the emblems they used to put on the hood or trunk of a car.....It says "motobecane" ...and it's probably raised 1/4 to 1/3 " ......I'm thinking.....get that cable well-hidden.....the top tube all smooth ....and then stick this big emblem on it!

Anyone know of any brochures, etc. with information on the Jubilee Sport? Anyone have any knowledge? I had searched the archives....but there was very little...hardly any....information there.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by JONathan on 7/23/2004 at 5:58:25 AM
Just the Wolbers would be worth a few bucks. Those are real nice rims. Motos ride real nice and the paint is really the best, IMHO. They used Vitus and Columbus tube sets. Man, this was all good days hunt! I have all but chucked looking for VLW's. They are either not getting to thrifts or there are not any to get there. More people are out on the VLW's. I have noticed a big increase out there. Preference or economics? I cannot determine.
The trains are getting maxed for bikes. One option is to have two beaters. One docked at either end. This eliminates getting turned away and it eases the scrambling to fish out your bike from 3 or 4 deep bungees. The "pick N' choose" days of VLW shopping are over, it appears. I still check occasionally. You done great!
I tried "motobecane jubilee sport" and I got a bunch of sites...try Google. $300 is not out of line for a good runner, IMHO.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by jack on 7/23/2004 at 7:42:49 AM
Gralyn, your Jubilee Sport exactly describes the one I picked up a few mos ago. Mine has Columbus Inexternal tubing which permitted automated construction using internal lugs. While not as pretty as ext lugs, overall looks are nice in the french tradition. Does yours have ext or int lugs and was the frame in your size? Based upon what I have found out and judging components, the Jubi Sport was a downgrade from the earlier Jubilee and was mid-range in lineup. Mine rides very comfy yet solid like most frenchies.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by Gralyn on 7/23/2004 at 12:18:33 PM
My Jubilee Sport does have internal lugs. It is my size also. I stripped it down last night, and cleaned and re-greased the bottom bracket, headset, then cleaned and waxed the frame. The frame looks really nice - the finish is nice. It has full chrome front fork.
As I stripped it down, and really got a look at everything - it certainly did seem to be more a mid-level bike. The brake calipers were branded with a small "M" - but look like Weinmanns in a short-reach version. It has drilled Weinmann single levers. The bars have a grip - that looks like some type of rubber, or vinyl-type stuff - that has molded fake-stitching......and it looks like the brake lever hoods are integrated to that (but it does look pretty good). It has a 6-speed Helicomatic rear.....which seems like a real down-grade from the rest of the bike.....the gear teeth are straight....not like the angled teeth of Shimano and Sun Tour rear cogs. My suspicion is that it won't shift as well. It has Sun Tour (AR, or ARX) front and rear ders. It has a "motobecane" saddle - which doesn't look all that good. The brake cable housings are dark blue, the saddle is dark blue and the bar grip is dark blue.

The chain was ruined - really rusted up good! This bike had been left out in the rain for a period before it ended up in the store. There is some other damage from the rain....like rusted bolts here and there - that I will replace. I most likely have everything I need to put this back as a really nice ride.

I did notice that the frame geometry looks a little different from some other bikes I have in that same size. I will have to measure it up - and see just how it's different, etc.
(Oh.......I just realized....I did it again.......forgot to take some "before" pictures before I took it apart!)

Another thing......attached to the brake calipers - is this metal clip thing....which rides on the top of the tire....it rubs on the tire by tension created by 2 rubber tubes of sorts - then from there - it is connected to the brake caliper mounting bolt. What is the purpose of these?

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by leigh on 7/23/2004 at 12:44:55 PM
The two metal things riding on top of your tyres are called flint catchers their purpose being to remove sharp stone off the trye before it can become embedded and ruin the tyre
Hope this helps


   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by leigh on 7/23/2004 at 12:45:17 PM
The two metal things riding on top of your tyres are called flint catchers their purpose being to remove sharp stone off the tyre before it can become embedded and ruin the tyre
Hope this helps


   flint catchers posted by John E on 7/23/2004 at 2:26:02 PM
They are also known as "tyre savers." I could have used one a week ago, when I got my first-ever flat in a Specialized Armadillo, from a piece of glass.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by T-Mar on 7/23/2004 at 3:03:39 PM
I recalled an ad for a Motebecane Jubilee Sport and after a little searching I found it in a 1983 issue. The model appears to be on the cusp between an entry level and mid-range bicycle. Cost was $300.00, only $15.00 more than the Super Mirage which it was one step above. However, unlike the Super Mirage, it had Columbus tubing, and if you use this as the criteria for distinguishing their entry and mid-range bicycles, you could consider it the bottom of the mid-range models.

As for the lugless versus internally lugged controversy, the Motobecane ad clearly states their inexternal brazing process to be "lug-less". Normally, I would question if this is a concession to an uneducated customer, however Motebecane includes a line drawing of the joint cross-section, clearly indicating two tubes with no internal lug, and both an internal and extrenal fillet at the tubes' junction. Barring somebody being willing to cross-section an inexternal brazed framed to provide a definitive answer, I consider these frames to be a true lugless design.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by Gralyn on 7/23/2004 at 6:53:21 PM
In reply to JONathan - about the availability of VLW's:
I went for a very long time when there was absolutely nothing. For the most part - the stores where there was previously a steady stream of VLW's....now, they never have any. Store after store - not a VLW to be found. I did luck up in that there were a couple of stores where VLW's were showing up. I have tried to frequent those - while they seem to be having a stream of bikes. One store has all but dried up.....and that only leaves the one store now. Yesterday - I got the Jubilee Sport, today - I picked up the Hercules, a couple weeks ago - the Trek 400, before that - the Schwinn Sports Tourer, In-between - a Raleigh Pursuit, before that - a couple ladies models for parts, before that - a Schwinn World Sport, before that - the Bottecchia.
At the other store - I picked up this Raleigh Routier, a ladies bike for parts, a Centurion Accordo, An Azuki.
Oh, then at another store - I found a nice-condition Raleigh Grand Prix (1974)....but then, that's the only bike I had seen at that store for well over a year.
There were other stores where I used to pick up VLW's pretty regularly.....but they have been completely dry for at least 2 years...maybe more.

And another thing.....I'm not seeing these VLW's out on the road. All I see are the folks with matching jerseys on $5000 bikes.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/23/2004 at 11:15:16 PM
Gralyn-- too true. I do a post-work 18-mile ride every day (when it's not thunderstorming!) on one of the busiest and best cycle paths around. It's a rare and wonderful occasion to see another classic lightweight on the road. Lately it's been a gorgeous PX-10, sometimes a few Raleighs. But I am usually alone on my Cinelli, PX-10 or Competition GS.

What do folks DO with all the classic lightweights that seem to be bought and sold con gusto on eBay?? They sure don't ride 'em and that's terribly sad.

Some riders feel compelled to have the most garish and modern mounts out there when riding with their mates.. it's a guy thing I think. Once I had a nice chat with one such bloke while riding my Competition GS ('79).. he had one of the latest carbonfibre thingys.. a Litespeed as I recall. He said he just wouldn't be able to be "competitive" on his '74 Raleigh International. I just had to point out that the two of us had been riding flat out side by side for about two miles! So much for "competitive"... especially when after our chat I easily overtook him and went on my way! So maybe, just maybe, he dusted off that International when he got home...


P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by Gralyn on 7/24/2004 at 4:15:46 AM
I believe the Jubilee Sport is either an '83 or an '84 model. The date stamp on both hubs is '83.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by Gralyn on 7/24/2004 at 2:28:04 PM
When I was out this morning - on my '84 Bianchi.....I only spotted 2 riders - a man and woman - on comfort bikes, I believe. No other riders, no old lightweights.

I had stopped in an LBS the other day - and I heard the guy who runs the place talking with a customer about some local rides they have. They meet on Wednesdays, and ride to such-and-such place, they meed on another day for a mountain bike ride, etc. etc. So, I'm listening intently - because I'm thinking it would be a good idea if I could stop off on my way home from work - and take a ride with some other cyclists. But then, I hear the guy talking about when they rode a few days before.....that there was this older guy....on an older bike....who was having trouble keeping up, etc. So, in my mind - I'm picturing this older guy - on an older bike....and in my mind I see this 60+ guy on a bike from the 60's.....but then I stop and think.....you know.....he's probably talking about a guy in his 40's (like me)....on a bike from the 80's (like many of my bikes).

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by Don (ollo_ollo) on 7/24/2004 at 10:37:18 PM
Gralyn: I have a Motobecane Grand Touring bike with the same plastic logo on the right side of the top tube, right in front of the seat tube joint. It mars an otherwise fine paint job & sharp looking bike. I was going to take it off but ended up obscuring it with the cloth battery holder for my vistalight headlight. The late version headbadge is no beauty either, really tackey compared to the earlier Moto badges. My bike has Vitus 888 tubing, SunTour Vx Derailleurs & a beautiful Stronglight triple crank. It's Weinmann centerpull brakes are a bit unusual: they look similar to the Mafac but have a set of metal levers instead of the saddle bridge cable. Never seen a brakeset like these. Don

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by Mark on 7/25/2004 at 4:25:48 AM
I had to laugh about the story of the older guy on old bike trying to keep up - it sounded like you were describing my recent adventures with the local bike club here in Louisville.

I have been having lots of fun buying old neglected VLWs on ebay. I found a vintage French-made Stella circa 1974 advertised as an "Arctic". I also found a nice Colnago Super, a Holdsworth Professional, and a frame made by Pepe Limongi with all Campy NR. I am now working on a Raleigh International. All procured at reasonable costs. It's a lot of fun buying/cleaning/replacing vintage rusty parts with period-correct parts that work -and then riding them !

Riding the bikes gives me a great opportunity to exercise. I did my share of racing from 1975-1978. But that was 30 or so years ago and I have eaten a lot of pasta, consummed a few beers, and had a few operations on ankles and back since then. My racing days are over - but the bikes are just plain fun to buy/rebuild/ride.

Anyway - this summer I decided to ride with the local club. I show up on my orange Limongi with lots of scratches and paint chips, all Campy NR or SR, toe clips, etc - a vintage steel ride from the 70's. Of the 100+ riders I was the only one with toe clips. All the other guys had expensive modern bikes, shaved legs, expensive computers on their handlebars, and were so serious. As soon as the group left they accelerated and were gone - I mean they all left me !!! None of those guys are ever gonna win the Tour De France or anything - I was so surprised they were soooooo serious.

I finally caught up with a few stragglers - mostly guys my age (45+). But they had little to say as I pulled up along side and tried to strike up a conversation. One even had an old steel lugged frame, but when I asked about it he murmered something and just kept his head down and pedaled. I asked about the clipless pedals he had put on the bike (like why did he do it) and he just laughed and said no one rode with toe clips anymore. I mean he was quite offensive as he stared down and virtually laughed at my Campy Superleggia black pedals and toe clips.

I never did find the rest of the group. It was not much fun out on a club ride by myself. Things have changed - when I did club rides years ago everybody rode at a reasonable pace (20-22kph), they talked, admired each others bikes, etc. Times have changed.

Oh well. In the next few weeks I should have the Holdsworth (a one owner gem) and the Raleigh International out on the road. Vintage steel rules !!!!

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by marc on 7/25/2004 at 6:28:40 AM
I've thought about club rides and I was intimidated but after riding along the major paths here in chicago and keeping up with some and passing up many riders on there ergo/sti aluminumn what nots (because if you've seen one modern lightweight, you've seen them all)I've lost many of my fears of not being able to keep up on vintage equipment. I have a feeling I'm alot younger than most of you guys at 24. I love these old bikes and if I do club rides I want to make a point that these old bikes aren't just for show, they can flat out fly. I mean if Eddy could win the same Tour as Lance on a "heavy" steel bike than one of these so called antiqueties should be able to hold there own on a club ride. just my opinion.


   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by Gralyn on 7/25/2004 at 2:33:35 PM
It is - just too serious. Well, I'm pretty serious about it myself......that is, serious about the enjoyment of it! I enjoy the scenery, the fresh air (most of the time - it's fresh....but Saturday morning - every car that passed me on the road had a smoker in it. When a car with a smoker passes you - you smell that cigarette smoke for at least a mile!), exploring roads I've never been down, stopping at a yard sale, waving to folks as I pass by.....but at the same time - getting lots of exercise, ...and each time I ride...each hill gets easier, I get less tired, etc. I often think of how neat it would be to ride with a group of VLW fans....all on VLW's....

There was an article in the New York Times about cycling. I recall something about comparing today's cyclist with those of yesterday......the comparison was like: where one guy comes home from work, changes into his jogging shorts, and goes out for a run.....as compared with the guy who, after dinner - says there's still a little daylight left, and there's nothing else to do....let's go take a walk through the neighborhood.

I don't know if the modern cyclist enjoys it or not. But I know I do. I ejoy the way I ride, and the bikes I ride. ....and I'm not in training for the TDF. So, I can go as fast or as slow as I want....just whatever I want, however I want.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by marc on 7/25/2004 at 4:26:42 PM
I've wanted to find a group of vintage riders but I haven't had much luck. I met one friend who is a collector and has colnagos and even a hetchins hanging on the wall but they never get ridden. He doesn't even ride much at all. I think that we here on the list are somewhere in the middle. We enjoy collecting but we enjoy cycling even more so we don't mind taking are precious steeds out for a ride. But, we're not so into riding that it alienates us from others. On the contrary, we seek out comrades. Maybe we should all pick a spot and found our own town, OLDROADSVILLE. I think there's a bike show coming up here in chicago coming up in either september or october, I heard about it while I was at cirque, if any is going to be in town I'd love to hook up for a ride.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Motobecane Jubilee Sport posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/26/2004 at 11:27:08 PM
I don't know about the rest of you, but riding classic lugged steel makes me far more competitive, not less. There's is no way I am going to let some young whipper-snapper on some carbon-fibre thingy pass my classic Raleigh, Cinelli or Peugeot. No way. So I've enjoyed some nice impromptu roadraces and with some gratifying results. It's worth it for the look on their faces when they are passed in a blur of wool jersey and shorts, little white socks, perforated black leather cycling shoes, toeclips, frame pump... and all they left with it the opportunity to contemplate what a Brooks saddle badge looks like before that, too, passes out of sight. But I never, ever gloat at the poor lads in spandex who occasionally topple over at traffic signals when those wacky clipped pedal things stay stuck with their weirdo "jogging shoes" (which are sold today as cycling shoes if you can imagine).

So all good fun... fast and furious or leisurely and elegant... it's great to get classic lugged steel out there on the paths and roads where this stuff still turns heads as well as turning in some pretty good times too.

P.C. Kohler, retro grouch in a hurry

MISC:†††Adding new features to the OldRoads Discussion Areas posted by: VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc. at OldRoads.com on 7/22/2004 at 3:54:46 PM
We're making upgrades to our site. They will take place over the summer and will include:

- better performance
- the ablility to post pictures
- the ablility to post other types of files
- the ablility to enable active links within the Discussion Areas

Vin - VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc.



   RE:MISC:†††Adding new features to the OldRoads Discussion Areas posted by vin on 7/22/2004 at 3:59:31 PM


   RE:RE:MISC:†††Adding new features to the OldRoads Discussion Areas posted by vin on 7/22/2004 at 4:00:14 PM
looks like the picture logic works!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by: Georges Dodds on 7/21/2004 at 8:43:51 PM
I picked up a c. 1970 white 10-speed Chiorda for $15 at a garage sale. For the life of me I can't find a serial number on the frame (I've spent a great deal of time going over and over the frame). It had a Campagnolo "Valentino Extra" rear derailleur, Balilla centre-pull brakes, cottered crank, and has a very nice ride. However, at the juncture of the right seat stay and seat cluster, the welding is partly cracked. There, at the top of the weld a small "glob" of extra welding material runs across from the seat stay to the cluster, this is cracked, but best I can see, the main weld isn't cracked, certainly there's no evidence of the stay being detached. One high-end bike dealer seemed quite insistent that I was flirting with death (and offered to have it fixed for about $350 Can. (about $275 US), whereas another dealer suggested that it was likely only a crack in the extra glob but had no impact on the structural safety of the bike. I've probably done about 400 km with it so far, with no apparent change in the crack.

I have access to a qualified welder and range of equipment but have no idea what sort of materials the frame might be made of, what sort of welding technique is appropriate, or for that matter if it's best to leave well enough alone, or alternatively just scrap the bike...

Any suggestions? Thanks

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by JONathan on 7/22/2004 at 2:18:01 AM
Are you positive that it is a "weld"? Most lugged bikes have brazed up joinery. As for the second shop's comments. If it was my call; I would go with the first shop's surmise, as you really cannot rule out a potential failure, based on the statistical nature of the second shop's guess. Statistica donnot tell me ANYTHING about an individual event. Personally, I would not ride a bike with that type of defect. If that goes....man that is not something to contemplate. The bike was either defective or it has had some rough service. Either way, I say get it fixed or get another ride. Just my simple minded opinion.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by Guest on 7/22/2004 at 2:20:35 AM
All lugged frames are welded

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by Oscar on 7/22/2004 at 2:59:30 AM
Lugged frames are brazed, but I don't know if a braze is by definition a weld.

I just heard that a friend of mind injured herself severely by riding on a homemade weld-repair. I guess it wasn't a good weld and she's self taught. Sore, but a little smarter these days.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by Georges Dodds on 7/22/2004 at 7:49:37 AM
Definitions of soldering, brazing and welding:

Soldering - The AWS defines soldering as a group of joining processes that produce coalescence of materials by heating them to the soldering temperature and by using a filler metal (solder) having a liquidus not exceeding 840°„K, and below the solidus of the base metals.

Brazing - Brazing joins materials by heating them in the presence of a filler metal having a liquidus above 840°„K but below the solidus of the base metal.

Welding - In welding, fusion takes place with melting of both the base metal and usually a filler metal.

So yes, it is probably "brazed" (rather than welded) -- question remains what is the base metal and what sort of filler metal should be used?

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by Derek Coghill on 7/22/2004 at 7:15:45 PM
It'll be brazed, somehow, if it's a lugged frame; this is sometimes done with normal brazing rods and sometimes with silver solder (enables joining of components at a lower temperature, thus reducing change in the materials' characteristics).

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by JONathan on 7/23/2004 at 5:11:15 AM
Ag filler braze material was used on high-end lugged frames due precisely to the reason you put forward. The problem was economics; the brass braze was much cheaper, although if you consider longevity as a factor, the additional expense would be well justified, IMHO. I have brazed a bit, but welding is a lot trickier due to heat above 1800 deg. F. Welds are actually fused joints. The preparation for a welded frame is considerable...to do it well. The lugged frames are easier to build, IMHO, than are well crafted welded frames, from a handmade perspective. The cracks in the braze indicate a stressed joint, which could effect the parent material (steel, I presume) with heat affected zones (HAZ).
Regardless of the fill material, the joint seems to have a problem, so why risk it? Just my 2.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††C. 1970 Chiorda, cracked weld posted by T-Mar on 7/23/2004 at 2:11:22 PM
Personally, I'd take a different approach to this problem. Frankly, the Chiorda is not a great frame and doesn't warrant a repair, unless you have great sentimental attachment. Repairing the frame will char the finish in the immediate area of the repair, destroying the best aspect of the Chiorda frame, it's cosmetics.

My approach would be to slowly file down the blob of brazing material. By the time you have eliminated the blob, the crack may have disappeared too, as there is a chance that it does not extend into the actual joint with the stay and lug. Of course, as you approach the joint proper, you must proceed with a very fine files/papers as it is easy to smear the material across the crack making it easy to think it has disappeared. With this method, you can do it youself and the frame will require minimal paint touch-up.

If the crack extends deeper, it's your call as to whether you want to put the money into a repair. As for the cost, the quote appears very high. Four years ago, Marinoni was charging $100 CDN to REPLACE a seatstay. In your case only the joint is being re-brazed, so it should cost even less. Given inflation, I would think that it should still cost less than $100 CDN.


    cracked weld posted by John E on 7/23/2004 at 2:32:06 PM
I have never had a frame rewelded or rebrazed, out of concern that another crack or failure could soon appear elsewhere, or that the fork or steerer tube might be unreliable, as well.

A counterargument is that, as I and others have postulated in the past in this forum, some brands may have characteristic failure points (Peugeot chainstays, Bianchi downtubes, Nishiki BB shells, etc.). If this is true, fixing the frame's "weakest link" may be justified.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Interesting Statistics posted by: Gralyn on 7/21/2004 at 8:21:55 PM
I had a thought, the other day.....I wondered about all the bikes I have collected / obtained during the past few years.....What brand did I have most? Etc.

Well, it was kind of like this:

Schwinn 25%
Raleigh 15%
Nishiki 6%
Peugeot 6%

Then, all the other brands were 4% and less.

I know some folks collect exclusively one brand, or one type, or even one particular brand and one particular model of that brand.

I like the variety, myself. But, I do find myself shying away from lots of lower-end stuff these days. I guess it just evolves over time.

Is anyone else's collection distributed much like mine?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Interesting Statistics posted by jack on 7/22/2004 at 1:22:48 AM
I noticed a couple of things about your stat's; they seem to generally follow historical market share, coincidence? One could similarly catagorize as American, British, Japanese, French and Italian and find ratio essentially unchanged.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Interesting Statistics posted by JONathan on 7/22/2004 at 1:56:29 AM
Interesting. Mine are: French (mostly Peugeots); Japanese makes; English (mostly Raleighs); American (Schwinns and Columbias) Taiwan branded bikes. Count is for VLW's only. The MTB's are Japanese, then Taiwanese builts.
Schwinns are snapped up pretty fast out here on the west coast, IMHO. I look for them, but they are conspicuously absent from the usual thrift outlets. Interesting.
Just my 2.

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Interesting Statistics posted by JONathan on 7/22/2004 at 2:03:13 AM
Forgot the Italian jobs. They are the least represented...one Bianchi, one Bottecchia and a Maino. One German bike; Volkscycle "MarkXX". I think it is German. One Austrian; Mondia "Champion".

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Interesting Statistics posted by Meatwad on 7/22/2004 at 7:56:51 AM
3 schwinns all road bikes
1 raleigh grand sports
1 Nishiki ( american flyer)
1 Monark fat tire
1 Elgin fat tire
1 Hiawatha middleweight
1 Sears cantilever austrian one speed

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Interesting Statistics posted by John E on 7/22/2004 at 3:34:13 PM
I seem to collect road bikes by BB thread standard:
1959 Capo "Modell Campagnolo"; Austria; English-threaded
1972 Peugeot "UO-8"; France; French-threaded
1980 Peugeot "PKN-10"; France; Swiss-threaded
1981 Bianchi "Campione d'Italia"; Italy; Italian-threaded

I also have one (old-school, of course) mountain bike:
1988 Schwinn "Project KOM-10"; English-threaded

   RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Interesting Statistics posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/22/2004 at 6:25:32 PM
Alas, my collection of vintage lightweights is not nearly as international:

6 Raleighs ('48 Clubman, '48 RRA, '49 Clubman, '51 Clubman, '61 Lenton Grand Prix and '79 Competition GS)

1 Peugeot ('72 PX-10e)

1 Cinelli ('73 Speciale Corsa)

P.C. Kohler

   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Interesting Statistics posted by Derek Coghill on 7/22/2004 at 7:21:02 PM
Mine's not all lightweights:-

Peugeot (late 70s/early 80s, don't know the model)

Motobťcane (early 70s)

Claud Butler (50s)

Borthwick Cameronian (1920s 3-speed, made in Edinburgh so my local bike)

Francesco Moser (1976, I think)

Schwinn Super Le Tour (unknown age, modified)

Also Ridgeback, Specialized and Kona ATBs.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Interesting Statistics posted by ollo_ollo on 7/24/2004 at 11:26:12 PM
(7) Bridgstone, Centurion, Fuji, Myata, Specialized, Univega
French: (3)Gitane, Motobecane
Italian: (2) Bianchi, Colnago
USA: (2) Schwinn
English: (1) Raleigh
47% Japanese, 20% French, 13.5% italian, 13.5% USA, 6% English. Don


   RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Interesting Statistics posted by Joe Natran on 5/16/2005 at 3:16:22 PM
I own a 70's Volkscycle Mark 100 lightweight [chrome molley frame?] 10 speed bicycle. excellent condition. I would like to know approx. value of this bicycle. Thank uou, Joe

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Deraiileur Issue...Revisited posted by: RobA on 7/20/2004 at 11:05:33 PM
Thanks Guys...and further to my post below...I have the derailleur working a bit better, though probably mostly I'm getting used to more precisely shifting it. The back end of the drive train is much sloppier than I like. Part of the problem, I think, is getting the right derailleur...the bike is my mid 70s Gitane TdF with the integrated dropout...the tab is completely round with no provision for the "B" adjustment tab...as a result none of my SunTour ders. will fit. I think the original derailleur was likely a Simplex Prestige or Criterium, and likely the kind that mount with a bolt screwed on through the back of the tab...if so the tab was tapped out before I got it to the 10 mm standard... And, when I got it, it had a worn-out Shimano Titlist... I've cleaned up an old Crane, which turned out to be in pretty sound shape..the Shimano Crane (the Dura-Ace predecessor) is from the same era as the bike, and also has the same basic specs as the Titlist that was on it, so I see how that works. Then I'll try another chain...the freewheel is pretty good...an early 80s 6-speed SunTour New Winner...those things are practically bullet-proof, and the crank which I changed a few weeks ago, is a low mileage Super Maxy 52-40. The front der isn't too bad, early 80s Cyclone II, though I managed to strip out the allen head mounting bolt, but that was on the finally tightening, so when the time comes to remove it that'll be a future problem...:)

   ††Deraiileur Issue... posted by John E on 7/21/2004 at 2:31:39 AM
My 1980 Peugeot PKN-10 originally came with a Peugeot-labeled Simplex rear derailleur, which fortunately did not use the Prestige or Criterium's upper spring pivot system. I had very little difficulty adapting the dropout to accommodate a SunTour Cyclone II; a Campag. N.R. would have been equally easy, I believe.

You may be able to fashion some sort of pivot stop for a SunTour, or simply torque the mounting bolt enough to keep it from swinging forward, although this may complicate rear wheel removal slightly.

FOR SALE:†††FS: vintage Campy "build kit" posted by: Mark Cady on 7/20/2004 at 3:21:50 PM
For Sale: Complete vintage Campy "build kit." Campy NR derailleurs, wheels with Record LF hubs laced to Mavic GP4 sewup rims. Campy threaded headset, Record cranks, BB, Campy brake calipers, levers, etc. The Der's are ca. 1971. The wheels and brakes are newer. The parts are currently installed on a chromo-steel frame (54cm). The frame is not worth keeping. It is Italian, forget which brand. No reasonable offer refused. Contact: mark_cady@yahoo.com

   RE:FOR SALE:†††FS: vintage Campy posted by Derek Coghill on 7/20/2004 at 10:53:10 PM
Sounds like just what I want......but half a world away!

   RE:RE:FOR SALE:†††FS: vintage Campy posted by Mark Cady on 7/21/2004 at 2:38:41 PM
Where are you located?


   RE:RE:RE:FOR SALE:†††FS: vintage Campy posted by Derek Coghill on 7/22/2004 at 7:22:16 PM

MISC:†††Fixed gear project II! posted by: Elvis on 7/19/2004 at 6:28:34 PM
Took my Panasonic DX-1000. Converted ti to a fixed gear running 40x18, and it kills the hills around here, also makes for great cruising on a long ride, not fast, but steady, light, and soooo much fun. I have one question: The Panasonic DX-1000 is a road bike. i am thinking about throwing wider tires on it so i can take it on grass and dirt roads, etc. as well as just the streets. My question is about the frame. Would riding in this manner on a lugged steer roadbike [which is already used, though in good shape, when i got it -- 1980's vitnage] destroy the frame? I know someone here posted earlier on frame and component life, and obviously it varies with use. I love this bike and do not want to shorten the life of the frame, but wish to make it a more versatile ride. Is there a risk involved?

   cyclocross posted by John E on 7/20/2004 at 1:50:39 PM
It sounds as though you want to use it essentially for cyclocross, as well as on-road riding. I put 70 psi 27 x 1-3/8" knobby tyres on my Peugeot UO-8 for that specific application, as well as commuting, and so far the frame is not protesting. However, having cracked the chainstay between the chainring and tyre clearance dimples on my previous UO-8, I do not consider them to be particularly durable frames. I suspect your 1980s Panasonic has superior materials and workmanship.

   RE:cyclocross posted by Elvis on 7/20/2004 at 2:08:32 PM
Thanks... i am actually doing some changes. New seat, etc, but no big mech. changes save for the tires, and i'm going to a 40x16 gear instead of 40x18 to save myself from excess spin on flats / descents. I do have a set of thicker tires, came off a hybrid. The Panasonic is made of Tange tubes, but as the DX-1000 seems to be their low-lever road bike I am not sure it is the lightest stuff. Maybe this works out in my favor. Sometimes in making a bike lighter they loose the durability factor.

   RE:MISC:†††Fixed gear project II! posted by T-Mar on 7/20/2004 at 6:00:40 PM
Undoubtedly, the off-road riding will shorten the lifespan of the frame. The question is how much, and whether it within your acceptable limits? The two major factors will be the type of terrain and the frame material. Obviously, the rougher the terrian and the more often you ride it, the greater the effect on the lifespan. A hi-tensile steel frame will be more suspectible to failure than a CrMo frame.

In some ways, a less expensive frame is better, in that the tubes are generally thicker. However, it is often difficult to determine the tube material on the inexpensive frames. Even if the main tubes are CrMo, the stays and forks may be hi-tensile steel. In off-road ridding , the most likely failures are the forks and stays. I had friends who tried to ride deparment store ATBs with hi-tensile frames on technical trails. Typically, these frames would fail within a year, usually the forks or chain stays.

However, if the fields and trails are smooth and the frameset is heavy CrMo throughout, it should last quite a long time. Even with a hi-tensile steel frame on smooth trials, you should get at least a few years out of it. Fork failures are potentially much more dangerous than chainstay or main triangle failures, so you may want to ensure you have a CrMo fork. You can prolong the life of the frame by running the widest possible tires, at the lowest possible pressures. Regardless, you will want to ensure that you inspect the frameset on a regular basis for telltale paint ripples and cracks.

   RE:RE:MISC:†††Fixed gear project II! posted by Elvis on 7/20/2004 at 7:26:22 PM
Thanks... I think. Damn, I knew it wasn't "great" to take a bike offroad, but never knew there was that much potential damage!
I am not speaking of difficult mountainbike trails or singletrack with huge logs and rocks, but mild dirt trails, cutting thru woods or fields, etc. ...Guess I'll just look for a used cyclecross frame and conver that. I don't wanna kill the Panasonic.

   RE:RE:MISC:†††Fixed gear project II! posted by JONathan on 7/20/2004 at 7:38:22 PM
To add something to this discussion, I ran with a '60's Hercules 3-sp. (shifter on the top-tube!!) on washboard levee roads everyday for a years. Malemutes need lots of miles to be sane.
A half dozen crashes didn't phase the frame, which is more than I can say for my own. I finally retired the "rabbit runner" for a Univega "Al[pina Uno" MTB, which was much better riding with those 2.125 tires.
The Hercules was built for tough use. The smaller frames are stronger. Your fixed gear (off-road!?) seems a bit on the light side for serious pounding. A year of rough use will about do it, IMHO. My mixte Peugeot which is the carbolite species with internal lugging has started to show some crazing near the down-tube/head-tube junction. This was up and down off-road on rocky trails type riding. I would not run a fixed gear off-road due to control factors. You cannot ratchet your way through tricky spots and downhills would be dangerous, IMHO.
I have seen guys running single gear freewheels. That's a purist type of ride. Most of those riders are experts to pull it off.
I would not trash that DX off-road, it is too nice of a VLW. There are plenty of UO-8's and "records" around as well as the Japanese and Taiwwan branded Schwinns to supply what you are looking, while keeping the DX for blacktop. Just my 2 c's.
Logic and reason never stopped me from experimenting with my frames. Good luck.

   frame wear and tear posted by John E on 7/21/2004 at 2:42:18 AM
Is riding with high pressure tyres on roads with potholes and other defects really that much easier on a frame than riding more slowly on good dirt roads and mid-pressure wider tyres?

My 1971 American Eagle Semi-Pro / Nishiki Competition frame failed at the bottom bracket shell's seat tube lug, the result of 40K miles' worth of to-and-fro torque cycles on the crank. My 1973 UO-8 frame, used almost exclusively on-road, failed at the right chainstay, again probably from cold-working of the steel during cranking. I doubt mild off-road riding would have caused either frame to fail any earlier. My 1960 Capo and 1962 Bianchi frames failed at the front of the downtube, where each had been bent and restraightened.

The talk of fork failures is terrifying. My various frame failures have never caused the least safety concern or even left me unable to "limp" gently home.

   RE:frame wear and tear posted by JONathan on 7/21/2004 at 5:30:28 AM
Chuck holes are worse on blacktop than off-road. The impulse is much greater. Fortunatley, they are low frequency events for me, as they are usually spotted (or remembered) and thus can be avoided. I have yet to trash a frame off-road, but everything vibrates loose after a while. It does not happen with my blacktop bikes, so the question focuses on the long-term effects of constant vibration. For a lugged frame, I predict it would be more of a problem because the interface of the lug and tube is vulnerable to separation, I think.
A well crafted welded frame is less likely to separate due to vibration, but it may be weaker in direct impact events due to some heat-stressed weakening at the junctures. My long guess is that the tires will wear faster off-road due to sharp rocks and other abrasive forces working the treads. Easy riding on dirt is probably not a big strain, but the paint gets all messed up from tossed up pebbels and grit. That is why I use beaters off-road. For hard running off-road, I would say the impact and control effects take a big toll on frames that are built for flexibility and comfort. The stiff running VLW's, like my Bottecchia tourer, would last longer, IMHO.
BL for me...If one rules out the pot-holes, the vibration due to off-road riding would be rougher on frames, under the conditions specified. Occasional scoots across dirt roads is probably not a concern, but the paint would be my biggest concern, especially if the bike looked premo to start. Just a couple more c's.
How is the paint on that DX'er?

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Old Folding Bicycle posted by: Chris Armstrong on 7/18/2004 at 3:02:08 AM
I acquired two folding bicycles supposedly from the 1960's. The brand is Markenrad Rekord and on the back of the leather seats it says Mertens, Made in Germany. I have been unable to find out anything about these bikes on ebay or the internet. Any info that you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Chris

AGE / VALUE:†††P.C. is still needing a stem posted by: sam on 7/16/2004 at 3:51:56 AM
The AVA stem I had was not the correct one.So anybody else?--sam

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††P.C. is still needing a stem posted by schwinnderella on 7/16/2004 at 4:20:03 AM
What does the correct stem look like?I have a number of ava,atax and pivo stems.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††P.C. is still needing a stem posted by P.C. Kohler on 7/16/2004 at 9:34:49 PM
Here's a nice PX-10 on eBay now showing the original AVA stem..


it's the hollow alloy "death stem". With that reputation, there should be lots around! My machine has a nice later Pivo stem but with the new recessed allen bolt fixing. And "death stem" or not, I prefer prototypical.

P.C. Kohler, risking life and limb for authenticity (again)

   RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††P.C. is still needing a stem posted by JONathan on 7/20/2004 at 6:04:29 AM
I have both types of AVA stem. One has the handlebar bolt // to the top-tube and the other looks like the one in the pic (bolt perpendicular).
Which one is worse? I think the vertical bolt is real dumb...what do I know, but just looking at it makes me shutter.
I'll dig around if I get back that far in the shed to access the obsolete (read; "vintage correct") parts boxes. Most came off Peugeots as I recall. I used to ride with the AVA stems before I learned of their infamous service record.
Guess I was lucky. What length reach do you want? Or does it matter?
Good luck,

   RE:RE:RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:†††P.C. is still needing a stem posted by JONathan on 7/22/2004 at 1:47:21 AM
Call off the dogs! I found what I think is a match, just to let anyone looking still. Turned out to be a welcome event for me as i was able to organize my parts distribution from random (well, near random) to somewhat separated by type. Like, now, the cranks are in one box; derailers another; brakes; etc....now I can find stuff without having to go through half the boxes, or more, just to locate a part. This is good. I will email a pic, p.C>, so you can see if it meets with your approval.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Ladies Frames posted by: Gralyn on 7/16/2004 at 2:51:45 AM
Any ideas here?
Through the course of collecting these old lightweights - I pick up quite a few ladies bikes. I pick them up for parts. I can usually use everything off the frame - to put onto a men's frame. For example, I have a Panasonic....and the matching Panasonic women's bike. Since the components, wheels, etc on the men's version were a bit rusted....and the ladies version had almost no rust.....I plan to take all the components from the ladies frame and put on the mens'. I have done this with quite a few ladies bikes. Now, what about those ladies frames? I really don't want to just throw them away. I have offered to build up some for some ladies - but nobody seems interested.
What should I do with these frames?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Ladies Frames posted by sam on 7/16/2004 at 3:51:08 AM

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Ladies Frames posted by James Mahon on 7/16/2004 at 4:25:58 PM
I agree with Sam. I built my homebuilt LWB recumbent out of two salvaged mixte frames so I wouldn't have to fabricate the rear triangle among other things. Find a local recumbent group and off them up as projects. Another option if you want to sacrifice them is as brazing practice for budding framebuilders either at the local Vocational school or to some of the newbies on www.frameforum.net .

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Ladies Frames posted by jack on 7/17/2004 at 12:59:40 AM
Quality ladies frames are being used for "stacking". This is where one frame is connected to the top of another resulting in a very high perch, a la highwheeler. As you can imagine, the ladies frame on top facilitates mount and dismount. Been toying with the idea myself if I can find the right matching bikes.

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Ladies Frames posted by Douglas on 7/17/2004 at 2:30:38 AM
Here's an entertaining site featuring lots of cobbled together alternative bicycles. However, it is said there is a fine line between rather clever and exceedingly stupid. Some of these bike builders have not just crossed that line but hopped, skipped and jumped across.


   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Ladies Frames posted by Robert on 7/17/2004 at 3:02:57 AM
Following along Sam's line of thought Avery nice and fairly simple recumbent form a ladies frame.


This is the beginning of mine built in the same vain.


Waiting on a bottom bracket sheel to arrive and the time to add the shell and the boom to the headtube.

Then I will have a lightweight 3 speed "classic" homebuilt
Just trying to cover all the bases :)

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Ladies Frames posted by Hoss on 7/17/2004 at 10:24:14 PM
Ha, Rob, that reminds me of when I pulled someone's leg and said "the new recumbent mountain bikes", can you imagine that!

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Derailleur Issue posted by: RobA on 7/15/2004 at 8:14:51 PM
Hi Guys....

I'm coming up for air after nearly two weeks of watching the Tour...getting up at 5:30AM PT to watch it live, and to tape it, then watch it again in the evening so I can have my own 'instant replays' of what I found most interesting...

No reason to think Lance won't make it...but lots can happen, and it's getting hot now in southern France...Some big names have dropped out, and some strong riders too...I was sad to see Magnus Backstedt...the biggest rider at about 200#... didn't start Stage 11...I don't know what happened...he was having trouble the day before...'burn-out' I guess...

Anyway to my point...I'm having a minor problem with a rear derailleur...an early 80s Shimano 600. From time to time, during shifting, the chain slips partially off the upper jockey pulley and kind of runs along side the upper part of the pulley...with a bit of fiddling with the shifter, it'll usually jump back into place, though not always...I thought I'd ask the OldRoads 'brain trust' before I try another derailleur.

What's the problem?

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Derailleur Issue posted by RobA on 7/15/2004 at 8:39:30 PM
Oops...excuse the double post...I thought I culd catch it for some editing...out of practice I guess...Inore the post below...

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Derailleur Issue posted by marc on 7/15/2004 at 8:56:06 PM
sounds to me like it could be worn pulleys, check them out and see how worn the teeth are. Also check the chain, see if it's stretched out. Don't forget to check the wheel alignment as well, make sure your chain line is in good position.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Derailleur Issue posted by T-Mar on 7/16/2004 at 1:26:55 PM
Another possibility is a slightly twisted chain. This often happens after you've dropped a chain and sucked it between the chainstay or rear spokes. However, in such cases the chain does not continously ride on the pulley but seats and unseats itself with every chain revolution, which is very annoying. The newer, chains are more suceptible to this problem due to the bevelled and shaped plates which enhance shifting, but also cause false shifts when misalignment occurs. Once you've identified and marked the twisted links on the workstand, remove the chain and place it on a flat bench. The twist should be readily noticeable and can be straightened and via judicious untwisting using a pair of vice grips. You can attempt to untwist the links on the bicycle, but using a flat bench surface to check your results usually proves faster.

Yet another possibilty, if it's an SIS derailleur, is that the floating Centron pulley and fixed pulley have been interchanged, or the something is preventing the lateral movement of the Centron pulley.

   †††Derailleur Issue posted by John E on 7/16/2004 at 2:35:48 PM
While you're inspecting your chain, measure the length of 24 half-links, which should be less than 12 - 1/16". If it is this length or longer, replace the chain.

   RE:†††Derailleur Issue posted by JONathan on 7/20/2004 at 5:33:41 AM
Interesting problem. In addition to John E.'s recommendation I would definitely suspect what Tom has put forward is at least part of the problem.
I had a chain with a slight over-shoot on a link pin that wreaked havoc. It locked up the cage on one pass...resulting in one side plate working loose. My solution: GET A NEW CHAIN. One problem is the chain might measure within limits, but the rollers could be worn down enough to cause slips. If the cogs and chainrings are showing their age, the new chain is going to wear out fast, so I would check those, too.
A good chain will suppress a lot of problems in shifting, IMHO. Chains are the most neglected component in these VLW's. They will run for a long time, but how much slop is too much depends on the rider's tolerance for lower performnace. For me, I don't mind a little sloppy behavior on a beater-bike, but if the chain is too loose, I get nervous based on my track record of snapping them. The thought of a chain climbing around spokes, FW's and cranks is horrific.
Lube it up real good and see if you have the same problem as a minimal treatment.
Good luck, post what you find out. Just my 2.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††Derailleur Issue posted by: RobA on 7/15/2004 at 8:14:51 PM
Hi Guys....

I'm coming up for air after nearly two weeks of watching the Tour...getting up at 5:30AM PT to watch it live, and to tape it, then watch it again in the evening so I can have my own 'instant replays' of what I found most interesting...

No reason to think Lance won't make...but lots can happen, and it's getting hot now in southern France...

Anyway to my point...I'm having a minor problem with a rear derailleur...an early 80s Shimano 600. From time to time, during shifting, the chain slips partially off the upper jockey pulley and kind of runs along side the upper part of the pulley...with a bit of fiddling with the shifter, it'll usually jump back into place, though not always...I thought I'd ask the OldRoads 'brain trust' before I try another derailleur.

What's the problem?

AGE / VALUE:†††a lucky find posted by: marc on 7/15/2004 at 6:49:44 PM
I stopped at my favorite thrift store for old bikes today (I've pulled a few bianchis out of this place) and didn't see much among the pile of bikes. Then against the back wall I saw a gold frame with drop handlebars, then I saw what I thought was just a Free Spirit headbadge. I almost walked away but I figured I'd check it out see if it by any chance had any decent parts. I got closer and then I saw the shimano crane derailleur, I was intrigued. I looked over the bike and saw the reynolds decals on the seat tube and fork. I walked to the front of the bike and looked at the headbadge again, it was a ted williams bike. I've only heard of these, never saw one up close. I rolled it up to the cashier and gladly paid the 19.53 including tax for it.

Anyone have info on these? I can't find much online. Here are the specs: Full reynolds 531 frame, stays and fork. Shimno crane rear derailleur, and a shimano front which is not a dura ace. The body of it is alloy, the cage is steel, I think it is badged, "LITEST." Shimano gold freewheel, weinmann alloy rims and I'm assuming shimano hubs although they are not marked. The front wheel has wing nuts the rear is bolted on. Sugino "melt forged" cotterless cranks and a tange bottom bracket. Pivo stem, alloy bars, weinmann center pull brakes. I thought these bikes were campy equipped and so I thought these components were replacements but then I saw the dropouts were shimano. Is this a later model in the ted williams line? Do these parts sound original?

It is pristine condition, paint is near perfect as are the decals. It looks like some kid got a bike he didn't like and left it hanging in the garage. He probably wanted a raleigh or a peugeot. The frame makes me laugh looking at the free spirit top tube decal and then seeing the reynolds decals. Again I've never seen one of these up close or for sale. Any info you guys could give me would be great. I'd like an idea of how rare these are and how much they might be worth although I have no intentions of selling it unless it's worth a grand, then I might consider it but I doubt that very much.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††a lucky find posted by sam on 7/15/2004 at 9:16:17 PM
Free Sprit was a Sears house brand of bikes---Sears also used Ted Williams name on products--guns-fishing poles-bikes--etc. So both brands were sold tru sears stores.--Sounds like you got a good bike---sam

   †††a lucky find posted by John E on 7/16/2004 at 2:42:18 PM
Can you find any country of origin label? (I suspect either Austria or Japan.) The late 1970s and the 1980s saw a gradual adoption of Japanese components by European manufacturers across many pricelines.

The Shimano Titlist is a very competent front derailleur; I have had one on the UO-8 since I built it up from a bare frame 30 years ago.

   RE:†††a lucky find posted by marc on 7/16/2004 at 3:55:13 PM
It is an Austrian built frame. I've gathered some info from other sources and this is definately from the later end of the model run, because of the components. Also, these later frames are actually better built than the earlier campy equipped bikes as they had stamped drop outs and no integrated derailleur hanger, rather they used a campy claw. The later frames like mine have shimano forged dropouts and derailleur hanger. As I suspected they arent very valuable, which is quite fine by me. I suspect that is due to the fact that like many bikes and bike brands they do not get the respect that they deserve. I think these bikes are quite unique, especially for sears and because of that they should not be dismissed or laughed at. Just my two cents.

   it's an Austro-Daimler posted by John E on 7/19/2004 at 12:10:34 AM
Your frame is definitely a rebranded Austro-Daimler, made by Steyr-Daimler-Puch of Graz, Austria, which is also the birthplace of California's governator.

AGE / VALUE:†††BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by: Fred A on 7/15/2004 at 12:27:31 AM
I just bought (about an hour ago!) an old Bianchi road bike. Though in rough condition, I bought it mainly because my "stable" doesn't contain one and the price seemed right...$60. The frame color is white with red & white (tattered) logo decals on the seat tube and down tube. No decals anywhere to give a model name, though. Head tube decal is very good with the Made In Italy printed beneath the crest. As far as components go, brake levers & brakes are Universal. Derailleurs and down tube shifters are Campagnolo. Front hub is high flange Normandy QR and the rear (not QR) is to dirty to make it out. There isn't a decal designating frame material, but it isn't a lightweight. Cottered crank, but it also is filthy and I can't make out a name. TTT stem. It belonged to an ex-husband of the woman I just got it from and she swears that except for tires nothing was ever changed. Bike appers to be a lower end 10 speed model (she said her husband paid $800 for it new...yeah, right!).

Anyway, at the top of the head tube are the serial numbers:
Does anyone know what year that this would make the bike? I'm figuring early 70's. Am I close? I guess decals will be tough to come by to restore this puppy unless someone out there can point me in the right direction.

So......was the $60 worth it??????? (Please say yes because my wife was ready to kill me when it came through the door!)

Fred A

   :†††BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by John E on 7/15/2004 at 2:53:18 AM
In December 1962, my father bought me my second bicycle, a bottom-of-the-line $55 10-speed Bianchi Corsa, serial number 2F51703. It had cottered steel Magistroni cranks, Huret Allvit derailleurs, steel Universal sidepull brakes, and a Bianchi-branded leather saddle. I believe the next higher model had Campag. Gran Sport derailleurs, but a plain gauge steel frame, Universal centerpulls, and the same cottered crankset. Can you further identify your Campag. derailleurs? (Gran Sport fronts use a Simplex-like pushrod/pluger system housed inside a large square box. Gran Sport rears are heavy chrome-plated brass affairs, with the pivot point located in line with the rollers -- this was offset in the later Records to enhance chain wrap capacity and to improve jockey wheel to cog tracking somewhat.

To make a complete wild guess, based on a permutation of Schwinn's early 1960s serial numbering system, suppose the first digit is the last digit of the year, and the letter denotes the month, making mine a June 1962 model, and yours a May 1962 or May 1972. By the way, my ca. 1981 Bianchi has a serial number of 1M9xxxx -- could that mean December 1981, or am I just blowing smoke?

   RE::†††BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by JONathan on 7/15/2004 at 4:38:43 AM
Fred, that is a good price, IMHO. Any Bianchi frame that is sound (no major dings) is worth fixing up for riding or, as you stated, one for the collection. Personally, I find anything that's pre-bikeboom built by a premier maker has to be collectable.
Those cottered cranked bikes are cool, although I rarely ride one in ernest. Really retro stuff, though. I would get it, if it was available to me for $60. Does it have Campy cranks? Sounds very interesting. Great find!!

   RE:AGE / VALUE: BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by Jack on 7/15/2004 at 5:23:31 AM
Yeah its worth it! What else could you buy for sixty bucks thats a rolling italian sculpture, good for the environ, good for your physical and mental health, and you could use it for 2wks or 20yrs and still sell it for what you paid? (the equivalent of 2,$30 cups of California coffee!)

BTW, all vintage(pre-70's) Bianchi's I've ever seen were always celeste. Were other colors also used back then?

   RE::†††BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by Fred A on 7/15/2004 at 11:42:05 AM
Hi John (and JONathan and Jack), and thanks for the dating possibility. By the way, its Universal sidepulls, not centerpulls. Over this weekend I'll begin the "degreasing". polishing, etc. and then I'll better be able to identify component groups. The rear Campy derailleur is a small looking piece, for sure. They barely had room to put their name on it.

Judging from John's description, this is a base model made with a mix of components from his '62 and a '72. The crankset has a star pattern in the center, but again, needs to be cleaned. I feel like Indiana Jones!

Any chance that you guys have a source for decals?

Thanks for the responses! As always, a big help.
Fred A

   RE:RE::†††BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by Gralyn on 7/15/2004 at 11:46:47 AM
I had spotted a celeste Bianchi at an LBS. It had cottered cranks......I thought it appeared maybe early 70's....but wasn't sure. It was in rough condition.....but really not that bad......structurally, it was fine.....they had $150 price tag on it. I came back later....and it was gone. So, $60......I would say that's pretty good.

   RE:RE:RE::†††BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by marc on 7/15/2004 at 2:00:22 PM
sounds alot like my bianchi which I've never been able to date precisely but I believe it to be late 60's to very early 70's. From your description of the rear derailleur I'm almost positive it's a valentino derailleur which first appeared in the mid 60's. that's what mine came with along with balilla brakes and one of those steel cranks.Mine a very nice blue with red decals. What does your headbadge look like? I don't remember if you said what kind of wheels yours came with. When I purchased mine I got everything but the wheels. If it has steel wheels I suggest you put on a set of alloy wheels. I put on a set of fiamme alloy rims laced to campy record hubs and what is probably a plain gauge steel bike rides pretty nice and comes in at only around 22 pounds.

someone once posted here that these lower end bianchis were made by chiorda. I didn't believe it until I found a chiorda that looked alot like my bianchi; same lugs, same components, serial number in the same place on the head tube. The chiorda was a rust bucket when I got it and I've cleaned it up a little bit but I have'nt done much with it. I've thought about making into a bit of a club bike. We'll see. I can send you pics of my bianchi and chiorda if you want to compare them to your new find.

   †BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by John E on 7/16/2004 at 2:54:51 PM
Yes, the rear derailleur is a Valentino, named after Tullio's son. The Valentino front looks much like a Gran Sport. I think there was some Bianchi - Chiorda cross-ownership ca. 1970, but I have forgotten the details.

By the way, my 1962 Bianchi was red with gold pinstripes, whereas my brother's, purchased at the same time, was gold with red pinstripes. Both had really nice-looking brass head badges, featuring the Bianchi eagle and "Edoardo Bianchi" text. A neighbor had a "Campi," which was the same thing in green, with a (very rare at the time) 6-speed freewheel. The LBS owner's personal bike, a Specialissima, was black. So, non-Celeste Bianchis have always abounded, at least in the U.S.

When my brother ran his Bianchi into a parked car and took it to the local Schwinn shop for straightening, the Varsity-promoting LBS owner said, "That's that cheap Bianchi frame. It'll do that (bend at the top tube and downtube) every time." (Of course, so would any Paramount or other high-end frame of any vintage.)

   RE:AGE / VALUE:†††BIANCHI Road Bike 10 speed....... posted by brad on 7/26/2004 at 5:35:16 AM
Your vintage components alone would probably fetch at least $60 on ebay, especially the stem, campy parts, and all the bianchi cable clamps, etc. I'd keep it all together, though. If you can get it into ridable condition and cleaned up, it will be a real head-turner.

I obtained a similar but celeste bianchi reportedly all original except for front fork, presumably from the late 60's. Derailleurs, brakes and stem sound identical, but mine had a stronglite crank (no cotters), nisi tubular rims and gnutti hubs. Pedals were sheffield. My frame had been bent in a collision: I had a great restoration (Keith Anderson), but without an identical headbadge. The original was silver foil with the eagle and "Made in Italy." If you have yours restored, see if you can retain this decal, otherwise the red letters were still obtainable as of a few years ago. I also had the frame converted to short reach brakes intending to convert to better vintage brakes. I was told that these bikes often sported fenders, but I didn't want them.

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††brakes posted by: John E on 7/14/2004 at 8:27:01 PM
And now for a shameless product endorsement ...

One of the dangers of riding a vintage lightweight is inadequate braking. As various of us have discussed, modern pads and cable housings can help significantly. When I visited Sheldon last month at Harris Cyclery, I bought a pair of salmon-colored KoolStop pads, which I recently tried on the rear brake (late 1970s 750 length Peugeot-branded Weinmann 999 centerpull caliper, old school nonaero Weinmann lever, new cable housing) of my UO-8 commuter. These are simply the best brake pads I have ever used, and this is the best performance I have ever been able to eke out of a long-reach Weinmann centerpull. I can't wait to order a set for the front brake, a Mafac Racer centerpull.

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††brakes posted by marc on 7/14/2004 at 8:39:16 PM
just out of curiosity, how much are the pads?

   brake pads posted by John E on 7/15/2004 at 2:56:40 AM
A very reasonable $8 or 9 per pair, about the same as other KoolStops, and cheaper than many Shimanos and Campags.

   RE:brake pads posted by JONathan on 7/15/2004 at 4:47:32 AM
Good price. I forked out $11 for a pair, not long ago. I have yet to place them on a Myata "terra runner" MTB that is rigged for rough country touring. I wondered about them, as I have not run them on any of my rides. My Raleigh "technium" is due up for pads, so I'll get those. Thanks for the information.

   RE:RE:brake pads posted by Gralyn on 7/15/2004 at 11:43:29 AM
Maybe I should get some of those for my Bottecchia.....the one with the "SCREAMING!!!!" brakes!

   RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††brakes posted by David on 7/19/2004 at 11:24:11 AM
Kool-stops should help the braking. But they may be noisy. I put four on my Robin Hood Sports (steel wheels) and they squeal like crazy. Since the brakes didn't squeal before, I assumed it was just due to the new compound and I never checked the alignment very closely. At any rate, the kinetic energy is turned into heat + noise and, in a panic stop, they can sure hear me coming!

   RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS:†††brakes posted by JONathan on 7/20/2004 at 5:51:46 AM
Hmmm. Very interesting. I would check tire pressure and even the axle bearing adjustments. Just my 2, based on personal experiences.
Note: good idea to clean off the residue from old brake pads by cleaning the rims with water and #400 wet/dry paper....unless they are anodized rims. I use "Simple Green" with a nylon brush for my better rims. Rinse off real good!