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Archived: Vintage Lightweights

MISC:   Test posted by: Vin on 2/16/2005 at 2:33:32 AM
We're back.

   RE:MISC:   Test posted by Vin on 2/16/2005 at 2:38:45 AM
VVVintage Vintage Bicycles, Inc.


   RE:RE:MISC:   Test posted by JC on 2/16/2005 at 12:37:35 PM
Man, I was having to go cold turkey..
Glad it is back up and running.

FOR SALE:   Norex Made in france Saddle posted by: George on 9/13/2004 at 11:03:11 PM
For Sale: One made in France Vintage Norex number 39 leather saddle seat. Are these the same as Ideale 39s or older? Way to new for any bikes we own... $22 plus shipping in the U.S. only. Figured I would list it here before it goes on ebay... Please email: oscarhedstrom@hotmail.com

AGE / VALUE:   Does anybody know about a citoh bycycle posted by: Robert Davis on 9/12/2004 at 11:40:09 PM
If you have any info on this I would appreciate it. You can email me @ davis25@cox.net.
Thanks and any help would be nice.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Does anybody know about a citoh bycycle posted by JONathan on 9/13/2004 at 7:28:28 AM
Robert, this one was covered in recent posts. The models cover a wide range of quality.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Does anybody know about a citoh bycycle posted by Ken on 9/13/2004 at 5:48:30 PM
I believe the correct spelling is C. Itoh, ja?

   C. Itoh it is posted by John E on 9/13/2004 at 7:06:54 PM
Yes, "C. Itoh" is correct.

   RE:C. Itoh it is posted by Nick Broaddus on 7/13/2005 at 6:05:19 AM
i have a c.itoh bicycle

   RE:C. Itoh it is posted by Virgil Harrison on 12/11/2005 at 9:08:18 PM
I recently came across this Bike with 26" fram it is a three speed bike. It seems to all together. fenders brakes . I see that it is a good find acording to the messgaes this is a good find.

AGE / VALUE:French tandem posted by: Bill Patterson on 9/11/2004 at 1:30:42 AM
I have an old tandem. I presume that it's French. It has a set of French beaten aluminum fenders and a cyclo rear deraileur. The serial number is 3913.

I can send photos if anyone has an idea.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:French tandem posted by sam on 9/12/2004 at 6:55:55 PM
Bill,try this site

AGE / VALUE:   Aaron/from post below posted by: sam on 9/10/2004 at 3:54:06 PM
Aaron,when you get the frame in and have time to check it out---I may have some parts for it if needed ---like headset or some BB parts---4sale --cheap.---sam

AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot UO8 posted by: Gary Smyth on 9/10/2004 at 2:45:43 PM
I happened to run across a thread that went by earlier and noticed mention of a Peugeot UO8. I have one stored in a garage and to my knowledge never ridden. "Tube special allegre peugeot" is on the seat tube. In the mid seventies from Virginia it was supposed to go with me to Florida but got substantially waylaid, and when found it went to a bike shop and sat. I was transferred all over and so it was confined to a shipping box put into various storage facilities and almost forgotten. Six or so years ago it caught up with me, unwrapped, and its been in a enclosed but unheated garage. The bike took some heat in Florida, Virginia, Arizona while being enclosed in a container for several years but not ridden and ruined. Is this bike worth bringing out of mothballs? The old (knife) seat, for example, is crazed and my weight and butt size has increased. The bike has some surface oxidation on the wheel spokes and some in the wavy serrations on the rims for the brakes, but nothing at all serious. The paint and decals have held up. The air pump is missing and it has a spring loaded carrier installed on the back, but other than that original as far as I know. So, 1. What is it worth and would refurbishing make the cash outlay worth it? 2. It's been awhile. What kind of bike is a UO8? Touring? 3. I've been to several places but is there literature/ repair manual available in English I might find on the bike? 4. Can anyone still fix these bikes and are parts still around? (tools, screws, pins) I think I paid nearly $200 for the bike and prep and carrier when new with the advice that it was a good bike for getting around in Florida. I never found out then but am willing to give it a try if those of you out there who know advise me the better alternative-go or no go. 5. If no go what can I do with this and no fair asking me to donate it to you

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Peugeot UO8 posted by James Mahon on 9/10/2004 at 4:11:03 PM
I think it is worth it to keep. I like my UO-8 which is still 90% stock (suntour front derailleur and alloy simplex shift levers instead of Delrin)and just took it for 60 miles last weekend. Due to the straight gauge tubing, the ride seems stiff and less than forgiving on roughter roads. I would give it the sport/touring categorization because of its slack geometry and beefy construction. A little steel wool and elbow grease will remove the oxidation from the Ridgida rims and other chromed surfaces. Cotter pins are still available but always take the old one in the shop to match the bevel because it does not match the bevel of Raleigh pins. These bikes are also simple to fix with the most basic bicycle tools. The worst part: First, Stock AVA stems are prone to breakage. Per Sheldon Brown's site: "Many higher-quality French bicycles of the '70's came with AVA brand bars and stems. These are flimsy and unreliable, and should be replaced.". Replacing these with modern stems require reducing the diameter of the stem by .2 mm or it won't fit. A few minutes with sandpaper will accomplish this. Second, you may have trouble finding decent 27" tires since they are becoming more scarce. Hope this helps with the decision.


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot UO8 posted by Gralyn on 9/10/2004 at 7:11:44 PM
I wouldn't expect you would get the $200 back out of it.....not even today (if you consider what $200 was back then - compared to what it is now). Maybe a few years down the road they will become more valuable. Anyway, the bike is certainly worth fixing up - because it's a good bike - and it rides good. .....especially, if the frame and finish have been protected.
You can still find 27" tires.....even NOS stuff comes up on e-bay. I'm not sure about really good high-end tires, though....but then, they wouldn't have come on the U-08 anyway.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot UO8 posted by David on 9/11/2004 at 1:25:36 PM
JONathan is suggesting spending hundreds to replace brand new parts on an old bike. Don't do it. Borrow a comfortable seat, lubricate the bike, and adjust the bearings after they're greased. Then ride it and see if you like it. If you do, get the Kool Stop pads and buy the seat. Replace the tires if they won't hold air. Most bike shops have 27" tires and mail order places like Bike Nashbar certainly do. Good luck.

   RE:RE: Peugeot UO8 posted by JB on 9/11/2004 at 6:07:50 PM
I keep a Peugeot AO8 at work..got to commute to another site...it's not the fastest bike...but sturdy and reliable...fix the old UO8 up...ride it..for short commutes, it does the job

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot UO8 posted by T-Mar on 9/10/2004 at 9:53:07 PM
The Peugeot U08 was probably the most popular bicycle of the early 1970s bicycle boom. Performance wise it is nothing special, but it is good dependable transporation.

I'd classify it as a recreational bicycle myself. It was second from the bottom in Peugeot's lighweight line-up. It's good for commuting, short rides and the occasional day ride in the country. In short, it's a good bicycle for your return to cyclcing. However, if you find cycling is to your liking, you may want to step up to something better.

As to whether you should fit it up or not, I'd give it a tentative yes. As long as it has been reasonably maintained there should be little cost in getting it up and running. In general, fixing up a used bicycle is more cost effective than buying a new bicycle. The exception is if the bicycle has major problems.

You won't find any repair manual specific to Peugeot bicycles. Fortunately, the maintenance process is generic for most bicycles and any good manual should do. Tools are for the most part are generic too, though there will be some component specific tools depending on how involved you want to get. Regardless, I reccomend you buy a good repair manual as it will help you asess the Peugeot and determine if there are major problems. Do a complete asessment and price out the parts and tools at the LBS before you start the work. That way you'll know if it's too rich for you. And you won't have blown your money on the manual. It will save you from from throwing away good money if the Peugeot has major problems and it will teach you how to pick out another used bicycle that is in good condition!

Assessing the bicyle without taking it apart can be a Catch-22 situation. You can't do a thorough asessment without some tools and taking things apart, so some suprises may be unavoidable.

There can be some problems getting replacement parts for Peugeot and other vintage French makes. Depending on the era, the bicycle may have French threads for components such as the bottom bracket, pedals, headset, freewheel. Parts such as stems, handlebrs, cotter pins are often different sizes. For the most part, replacement parts can still be had for these components, however if you need to replace them it may be expensive and the parts will probably have to be ordered. Again, I advise a complete assessment and obtaining estimates before you start tearing thing apart and fixing thing up.

As Gralyn suggests, you won't get $200 back of it, except in enjoyment. Used bicycle prices can vary substantially, depending on region, condition and other factors, but I'd say that a used U08 will only bring you about $20-$40.

    Peugeot UO8 posted by John E. on 9/10/2004 at 11:30:22 PM
As a two-time UO-8 owner (one frame broke; I still ride the other), I concur with the general sentiment expressed in this thread. The steering response is slow, and the bike is not a lightweight by today's standards, but it is decent. The steel rims, though serrated, will compromise your braking, so I would consider KoolStop pads necessary. Your bottom bracket is French threaded, so make sure anyone working on it knows that the fixed cup unscrews in a conventional anti-clockwise direction. Since it has been sitting around a long time, I recommend repacking all of the major bearings, lubricating the chain, pivot points, and cables, etc.

   RE: Peugeot UO8 posted by JONathan on 9/11/2004 at 5:10:37 AM
Nice going there with all the shuffle it ends up back where it belongs. Basically you have a new bike it would appear. I would keep that one to ride after a few changeouts of inferior parts; mainly the wheels; cranks (if cottered); stem; seat and brake pads (Kool-Stops!).
The one thing to keep in mind is that the seat can be used on other bikes, so I would get a good Trek, Avocet or equivalent quality. I would swap to 700C rims that take 622-35 tires. This, in conjunction with the superior seat, will make the riding even in rough roads very good. The thin-walled tires are much better performing as well. The UO-8 is a very stable bicycle without being sluggish, IMHO. A "must-read" are Sheldon Brown articles on restoring French bicycles. It's all there, but for the wrench turning. The SR stems are available at shops. I have some UO-8's with "tube Allege" tubes which have cotterless Stronglight "TS" cranks and Nervar cranks, while some have the cottered Nervar cranks. If you have not gone to battle with cottered cranks, you are in for some fun. Getting the pins out is a bit of an art, for which there are several archival postings describing our efforts. DO NOT pound them out as the spindle, bearings and cones willbe damaged. I say this because it is the obvious first method that comes to mind. The cottered cranks are OK for basic riding, but for any distance or hills, the cotterless will be well worth the hunt. I have experienced a "flywheel-effect" with some cottered cranks. Very interesting at medium rpm's (50-60). I picked up a few mixtes that had gorgeous StrongLights or Nervar cotterless with little abuse. Bare bones makeover would be the stem, seat and brake pads. Then you can keep an eye out for a good StrongLight or Nervar cotterless crankset for a swap later on. BTW, you cannot run high pressure tires on those steel Rigida rims. Do not even try. I have blown a couple clean off the rims before I figured something wasn't right. Call me dumb, but at least I learned. There is a great expertise in this forum, which can save a lot of those types of learning experiences. You will notice a huge difference in ride with alloy high-pressure rims and tires, but I would ride the bike for few hundred, just to make sure that the frame suits your tastes.
I swap high quality wheels back and forth on several bikes. It is nice when the brakes are the same on all the bikes. You can have a set for road, a set for long-distance cruising and a beater set. Just swap in what you think the jobs requires on any given ride. Around town, I ue beater tires because of the glass, screws and metal fragments that seem to multiply on the roads. All the junk seems to get "pushed" into where the bikes have to go. I saw a mixte UO-18 selling for $200, well used bike, too. You could realize your investment considering the condition is excellent. Try a local bike shop bulletin board where you can have people see and ride the bike, if you decide to sell.
Just a few cents,
Note: I rate my UO's about 8.5 out a 10 for rides. It is the rider that makes it real. They can move out pretty good and most riders I've seen on these bikes can really push the cranks.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Peugeot UO8 posted by Warren on 9/12/2004 at 3:40:57 AM
Just ask the list if you need parts...I'm embarrassed to admit to the number of these Peugeots I've stripped, given away or just passed on. I know where one is sitting abandoned right now and it's in decent shape.

Parts for that bike should come cheap...ask and you will likely receive.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Peugeot UO8 posted by Gary Smyth on 9/12/2004 at 2:58:13 PM
My thanks to all. Truly, much appreciated for all the thoughts and time you took to respond. Currently I'm on the borderline given my circumstances I believe I'm going to give it a shot for the repair --during or as (****) soon as I return from yet another project. Since I will be gone within the month, for awhile, I pretty much have my choice of bike shops to send it to. I'll check around and look for someone local (Pittsburgh) but that seems remote given the area. After that it's shops in former locations of Northern Virginia, Miami, Phoenix, and San Francisco. I'm not certain of procedures on this site but if permitted, anyone has a good location for a UO8 conditioning in mind please advise.

   RE:AGE / VALUE: Peugeot UO8 posted by H on 9/14/2004 at 7:43:28 PM
I have a UO-8. Had it for 10 years.

Upgrades that were done to it before I got it were:

1) better wheels: 6speed freewheel, alloy rims, stainless spokes, malliard hubs hi-flange.
2) better seat
3) new stem, handlebars, aero-brakes
4) cotterless cranks: sugino's from the 80's
5) clip/strap pedals.

The frame is ridiculously heavy by any standard. The bike is strong, however, and it has a great "bike-that-will-not-die" karma to it. A real bomb-proof MF of a bike. I have ridden it thousands of miles.

I think you'll find that the only way to upgrade this thing economically is to do it yourelf. If you want an inexpensive but serviceable and nice old bike, just get an old guercotti or bianchi from the 80's on Ebay.

The bike with original parts is not especially appealing to anyone that wants to actually ride the thing heavily.


MISC:   Off topic: How's Chuck (& his bike) doing... posted by: Chuck on 9/9/2004 at 8:30:24 AM
To start at the beginning of almost my ending:

Headed south down El Molino late Friday afternoon on the south side of
Pasadena, close by the Ritz-Carlton and Cal Tech, a very small two lane
road down a ravine lined with mansions from the 1910s and '20s.

There's an SUV coming towards me (I'm probably traveling 18-22 mph down
the incline) and in an instant the driver turns in front of me to enter
their driveway. That's my last recollection till the guys in the
emergency vehicle ask my wife's name and number as they cut away my
mussette's strap and shoulder of my Assos jersey to see where the
massive amount of blood is coming from.

Next I'm in Emergency at Huntington Hospital about a mile from the
accident scene (picture a resort/spa hotel and I'm not exaggerating),
seeing my wife Sherry (we live about two miles from the hospital),
getting a full body CT scan, and then to surgery to fix the five+ inch
gash across the right side of my neck. Apparently I went through the
right side window of the SUV with my helmeted head and gashed my neck on
the glass; my face is untouched, however my Giro helmet is completely
smashed and broken at the front. The surgeon finds that there is a nick
in my jugular vein and lots of glass still in the wound. The x-rays
reveal that my collar bone is broken in two places, my shoulder blade is
broken in two places, my rib is broken along with a badly bruised right
lung; the doctor says luckily the nerves in my neck aren't severed which
would have paralyzed my right arm and right side of my face.

I leave the surgery recovery room about midnight and am placed in the
Critical Care Unit, and then finally to a private room Saturday
afternoon on the fifth floor with a beautiful view south to Raymond Hill
and the Montebello hills five miles away. The night has been a series
of IVs, fitful sleep and the morphine drip for pain with its own self
administering button to push (very handy) which makes me sick to my
stomach by the next day (typical reaction) and the check of vital signs
every four hours. The next morning is the introduction of the lung
exercise gismo (do the Merckx lung volume thing ten times every hour).

Sunday is TV, IV, Vicodin, lung gismo, naps, visits from family and
friends with news of the day's Rose Bowl vintage ride, my wife by my
side, another night in the hospital spa/resort and release at noon
Monday with my arm in a sling, very lucky to be alive.

Now for the important news... how's the '02 black and polished stainless
Waterford Road/Track. The bike was put into the emergency vehicle at
the scene of the accident and placed in the walk-in shower at the
hospital Emergency room (real VIP treatment) where my wife picked it up
and took it home while I was in surgery. I looked at the bike yesterday
evening and this morning an here's what I found. The bars and seat
still point straight ahead, a gash in the cork bar tape on the right
bar, a broken left bar end plug, the brake lever on the left is a few
degrees off from straight ahead and has a small scuff at the bottom, a
white paint mark on the left side of the top tube (from my shoe grazing
the top tube?), a very small scuff on the left side of the Brooks Flite
with a few tiny scratches across one of the rivets, a few light
scratches on the left end of the rear track hub axle, two 1/8 inch paint
chips down to primer on right chain stay, AND THAT'S IT!!!

How is this possible given the extensive blunt force my body sustained?
Friday afternoon before starting my ride, I tied a champagne cork under
my Brooks as I was taught to do for good luck by my mentor and friend
Ted Ernst. This was the tradition taught to Ted by the six day racers
from the 1920s and '30s. As Ted likes to say, "That's my story and I'm
stickin' to it!"

Here's a reason for getting a ride in every day. On the band the
emergency guys put on my wrist before getting to the hospital was hand
written "John Doe 1958" (they hadn't checked my wallet yet or they would
have seen it was supposed to be "1944" :)

In closing, I of course can't thank all of you enough for taking the
time to write on and off list wishing me a speedy recovery. I'm touched
and I feel blessed.

Chuck Schmidt
South Pasadena, Southern California

   RE:MISC:   Off topic: How's Chuck (& his bike) doing... posted by P.C. Kohler on 9/9/2004 at 1:47:24 PM
Chuck... thanks for the update and pleased that you are on the mend.

Thanks too for the reminder about the value of wearing a helmet, timely when I have been so sorely tempted to get one of those great Peugeot cycling caps and chuck my helmet when riding my PX-10. I think I'll resist that temptation!

Anyway, best for a speedy recovery.

P.C. Kohler

    How's Chuck (& his bike) doing... posted by John E on 9/9/2004 at 2:42:07 PM
Thanks much for posting, Chuck. My one collision with a motor vehicle, 28 years ago in west Los Angeles, which bent the frame of my 1960 Capo, broke my left clavicle in two places, and gave me a concussion, sounds chillingly like yours, i.e., an abrupt left-hook, although fortunately I did not go through anyone's side glass. (Ouch!) Get well soon!

I love the story about "John Doe 1958," the 14-year underestimation of your age. I am sure your high level of fitness will aid your recovery.

All the best, John E. 1950

   RE:MISC:   Off topic: How's Chuck (& his bike) doing... posted by RobA on 9/9/2004 at 4:33:04 PM
Gee, Chuck...rather chilling!!! ...I'm glad to hear you're on the mend, and it sounds like the helmet did its job...I never leave home without mine ...in fact, I'm so used to it, I feel naked without it..., and up to a point it also keeps the sun and rain off the top of my head...:)

My most serious incident was similar and now almost a year ago...a car suddenly drove in front of me from a stop sign...most of the damage was to my right leg, which, if something has to happen, is a better place to have it than the head and neck, also my helmet was cracked from the back of my head hitting the pavement...the fork was bent, handlebars mangled and the stem actually twisted without breaking...

You really have to do what you can to "expect the unexpected"...a couple of weeks ago a guy in a small beat-up old car was coming towards me signalling a right turn...he suddenly flipped the left signal and pulled right in front without hestitation....fortunately I had made the rather unkind judgment that he looked kind of 'goofy', so I was watching him closely....I guess, you've got to make these kind of judgments if you want to survive...

Good luck...have a speedy recovery


   RE:RE:MISC:   Off topic: How's Chuck (& his bike) doing... posted by JONathan on 9/9/2004 at 6:18:19 PM
Thanks for the post, Chuck. Ever since I read Bob's post regarding your collision I have had moments of pause. It is the "unthinkable" destiny that has me guessing all the time. Until recent posts of horrific accidents befalling riders, I just never thought about the physics of collisions and about how fast a thing can go bad. Thanks for posting, again. I am glad my wife did not read the post! She worries enough as it is. It raised my awareness of the potential, without dampening my spirit to ride all the time, everywhere only with some improved wisdom.
Get better soon!


   RE:RE:RE:MISC:   Off topic: How's Chuck (& his bike) doing... posted by Chris on 9/12/2004 at 2:19:50 AM
Chuck, I sent you the French bicycle parts catalog, remember me? I'm sorry to hear of your accident and I wish you the best for a speedy recovery and I thank you for your efforts and contributions. I'm glad that you survived this. Take it easy.
Clarence Kokkinis

MISC:   When did Campy make JUNK?? posted by: GaryMain on 9/8/2004 at 4:31:13 AM
guy brought by the shop a super cheesy jap bike. looked right off the turnip wagon. but get this... TIN Campy driveline!! the famous Crest logo and Campagnolo stamped all over its hideous sheet metal stampings, looked to be made from soup cans. front derailleur worked on a rod like cheap huret junk. Anyone ever seen such trash? i couldnt beleive my eyes. the owner thinks its a true trophy, i had to laugh. offered him $10 for it. I could be wrong but appeared to have sewn ups on steel wheels! Gag me with a rock, what a turd!!

   RE:MISC:   When did Campy make JUNK?? posted by Gralyn on 9/8/2004 at 11:50:09 AM
I know there was that economy derailleur - circa 1968.....Valentino Extra.....that looked pretty cheap. I have on on an old bike. It's like stamped out steel or something - and it does look cheap. And there's this front der. with a box thing - that operates on some type of rod system. I think those were some Campy economy (cheap) components. I don't know of any cranks, chainrings, etc.

   RE:MISC:   When did Campy make JUNK?? posted by T-Mar on 9/8/2004 at 1:15:09 PM
As Gralyn suggests, it does sound like a Campagnolo Valentino derailleur set-up. While these derailleurs left much to be desired relative to Campagnolo's more expensive derailleurs, they were adequate for the period and some paople would argue that you could do worse. The rear derailleur had an extremely stiff action, but was very strong and reliable due to heavy gauge steel construction, which is anything but tin soup cans. The front derailleur uses a push rod mechanism like Simplex (not Huret as you state) but the Campagnolo unit is much stronger and more durable due to it's steel and aluminum construction. It also functions better due to the slightly inclined angle of the push rod. However, it is definitely not as good as the parallelogram units of the time.

The presence of tubular (sew-up) tires indicates a racing model, probably a club racer. The derailleurs would be be a reasonable choice in this situation. They don't have the expense of the othe Campagnolo derailleurs but are stronger and more durable than comparably priced derailleurs. The stiff action and disadvantages of the push rod front derailleur would be minimized by the tighter, gear ratios.

However, what is most interesting is the Japanese built frame! This level of Campagnolo was usually found on entry level Italian bicycles and some Britsh bicycles. This suggests it is prior to Suntour and Shimano establishing a reputation for themselves in the racing circles. Given that the Valentino first appeared in 1964 and SunTour introduced their first slant parallelogram derailleurs in 1964, this suggests a mid 1960s Japanese club racer, which would be a rare bird indeed! The Japanese racing frames of the period left much to be desired relative to their European counterparts, and for this reason would be very rare outside Asia. From a purely technical point of view, the bicycle probably leaves something to be desired, but it could be quite rare and historically interesting. I'd take another serious look at it.

    When did Campy make JUNK?? posted by John E on 9/8/2004 at 2:39:16 PM
I believe T-Mar's observations are spot-on. The bike could be as late as ca. 1970, with an attempt to market it as "Campag. equipped," like the Italvegas of the same vintage. When I was about ready to buy my SunTour-geared Nishiki Semi-Pro in 1971, C. Harding's began carrying the Italvega line, which included a $135 model with a Valentino-derived wide-range rear derailleur.

Valentino was Tullio Campagnolo's son. Edsel was Henry Ford's son. Enough said ...

   RE:MISC:   When did Campy make JUNK?? posted by RobA on 9/8/2004 at 5:54:16 PM
Interesting...I have quite a few old Campy derailleurs now, front and rear...Valentino, Gran Sport, Nuovo Record, Super Record, Victory, Triomphe (sp?), Rally...they all seem to work, some are obviously well used, and even the Valentinos look pretty strong to me...but they definitely are fussier than, say the SunTour V-Gt or ARx...

I guess we're starting to forget now the pressure for genuine improvement(as opposed to gimmicky marketing pizzazz), Japanese products forced on the rest of the world through the 60s, 70s and early 80s...it does seem like a long time ago now...firs,t were the second rate copies, then the same quality copies, then the improved copies, and then the much improved original products....this was applied to almost everything...cars, cameras, electonics,.....and on and on, and, of course, bicycles and bicycle components....

   RE:RE:MISC:   When did Campy make JUNK?? posted by Chris on 9/12/2004 at 2:22:58 AM
I can tell you that I passed over a bike and went back for it and it was gone! Yes, the Valentino is lower end but they still sell and bikes that have these get bought up and parted out. Beneath me, but not others.
They wanted the derailer Valentino, or not.

AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Mirage looking for age, and value posted by: Jody on 9/8/2004 at 1:34:22 AM
I bought this bike at a second hand store and now I am trying hard to identify the year and the worth of it. It is a 10 speed Motobecane Mirage, with all original components and elements. It appears to me to be from the 70's but I am no expert in the matter. I have been trying hard to identify it's age and value but have had no luck. I am hoping that someone could help me.

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Thank You

   Motobecane Mirage posted by John E on 9/8/2004 at 2:33:57 AM
I am wild-guessing 1974 +/- a few years, but need specifics, such as component types. The 5-speed freewheel pretty well limits it to the 1970s, as most bikes built after 1979 had at least 6 cogs.

   RE:Motobecane Mirage posted by JONathan on 9/8/2004 at 6:01:58 AM
Congratulations! The Motobecane "Mirage" had excellent craftsmanship and the paint is the best of the vintage lightweights, IMHO. I have the slightly fancier version calledl "Super Mirage", which was distinguished mainly by a tad higher component mix. The '70's saw the Motos with Japanese (SunTour) derailers and SR cotterless cranks (also Japanese), which was a smart move. The SunTour was much superior. The "Mirage" was two steps above the "Nobly" and "Nomade" models, which means they were destined for the somewhat serious ridersl ones who ride a lot and will pay more for a bike. The top=end Motos were very serious road bikes. My "Sport Tourer" is supoposed to be a ste[p above the "Mirage", but I notice only a tiny difference in ride...maybe the geometry. The 2040, "high resiliency steel" tube set was one version. As to value, one needs to consider a few elements; such as condition of the frame and paint, component condition (a lessor concern since they can be swapped out) and how you go about it. I say $200 for a really excellent bike is not too high. The "Miarge" is a great bike for cruising or commuting..where comfort is important. I am basing my estimate from what I see in the bike stores that sell used vintage lightweights off the sidewalk in front of the stores. If you start adding up all that usually needs replacing (tires; tubes; brake pads; control cables) in addition to any major replacemnts required such as the gear system and chain, the $200 seems like a low estimate to me. The thrift stores sell Peugeots for $60 and up, which are usually in need of complete overhauls. I picked up a Peugeot for $60 last month at a thrift store. but it had a great set of panniers, front pack and a nice Blackburn, which would cover the $60 right off the bat. I figured the bike was thrown in for free, as I can use the cargo system on another bike.
I would ride the "Mirage" and compare that to a new bike. Then compare the prices. The "Mirage" is worth a lot within that context, but trying to sell it for anywhere near that is unlikely...for some inexplicable reason, IMHO.
Good luck,

   RE:RE:Motobecane Mirage posted by Gralyn on 9/8/2004 at 11:54:33 AM
I have one - I would guess mid-to-later 70's. It has a mix of Japanese and French components. It's too tall for me - and I'd like to part with it. I think with an upgrade to some lighter alloy components - it would be a really nice bike.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Motobecane Mirage looking for age, and value posted by T-Mar on 9/8/2004 at 12:26:07 PM
Assuming you are from North America, your Mirage is almost certainly a 1970s models. Motobecane was not imported prior to 1972. Earlier models were either brought in privately by the owner or bicycle shop.

The original versions of the Mirage came equipped with Huret Allvit derailleurs. Commencing in 1974 they switched to SunTour, and were usually found with a V series derailleur. Early 1970's frames typically have 1020 tubing, while late 1970s frames uusally are built with 2040.

As John E points out, a switch to 12 speed came in around 1980. The 1979 Mirage still had 10 gears.

While the presence of Huret derailleurs ties it down to 1972 or 1973, a SunTour equipped model can be pegged using the two letter date codes stamped on the back of the derailleur, assuming the derailleurs are original. The first of the two letters indicates the year. While there is some disagreement over the exact year that the code represents, it will tie things down to within a year. 1974 is represented by P or Q, 1975 is Q or R, 1976 is R or S, etc. The second letter represents the month, where A is Januery, B is February, C is March, etc. Derailleurs built in the last 3 months of a particular year probably indicate that the bicycle model is from the following year, as the components would likely be stock built up in anticipation of the coming model year.

   Motobecane Mirage posted by John E on 9/8/2004 at 6:07:14 PM
Another way to narrow down the age is to determine whether you have a French- or a Swiss-threaded BB. I believe Motobecane got it right (left?) before Peugeot did. Motobecanes of the early 1970s have a self-loosening RH-threaded fixed cup, whereas those of the late 1970s have a self-tightening LH-threaded fixed cup. Unfortunately, replacements for the latter will be very hard to find.

   RE:Motobecane Mirage posted by jojo on 4/1/2005 at 3:08:42 AM
OK, I've got a blue Motobecane Mirage sport.
Huret derailleurs, 1972 or 1973.
It's in LA. Is anybody interested in buying it?


MISC:   Loosening a Stuck Stem posted by: RobA on 9/7/2004 at 11:31:16 PM
I thought this might be of interest to some of you...this weekend I read in one of my repair manuals about another trick to loosening up a stuck stem... Several months ago I had tried to get the bars and stem out of a 1989-90 celeste-colored Bianchi Quattro with a cracked head tube (part of the crack went into the downtube lug)...anyway, after trying different things...ammonia, WD-40, Liquid Wrench, a hammer, pounding from the bottom with a 1/2" ratchet wrench extension...I gave up...

The approach I read in the manual is to place the forks in a vise with the blades straddling the vise beam. Using two pieces of wood to protect the forks, you clamp the fork crown. Then you give the handlebars a nice, sharp twist... unbelievably, the stem gave, and with a 'pop', as the manual said it would. Now I was able to twist the bars completely around, though with some difficulty. But the bars still would not move vertically.

While twisting, I found a few 'easy' spots, allowing an easy swing of maybe 1/4" before tightening up again ...After turning the frame over and clamping the top tube near the head tube, I centered on one of these spots then started in with a neoprene-tipped hammer. (I don't really like bringing out the 'heavy artillery' when working on bikes, as you have to be prepared to accept any negative consequences...in this case there wasn't much at stake...the frame was already wrecked). After pounding on the stem and also in from the bottom between the fork blades with a 1/2" ratchet extension...suddenly movement!!! ...about an inch at first...another sharp, but controlled smack...a couple more inches...several more taps and it was out....

The stem itself was not corroded,(well, maybe just very slightly) as I had suspected it might be, but inside of the steerer tube was quite dirty and rusty... Also there were two wedges in the tube...at first, I thought maybe from when the bike was first built up, ...the wedges were very similar, though not identical, the stem and bars look original...the stem, a Kalloy, seems to have a 1989 date code....so who knows what happened??? ...The rider, though, must have heard a rattle on every bump???

I have another stuck stem I'll being trying this on...an early 70s Raliegh Grand Prix...with a GB stem...it's probably been stuck for a long, long time...I'll give it a try tonight if I have some extra time....:)

   RE:MISC:   Loosening a Stuck Stem posted by Edward in Vancouver on 9/8/2004 at 1:25:44 AM
Just curious, does the steerer tube have a "bulge" in it? Sometimes, a previous owner overtightens the stem clamp to the point where it lodges inside of the tube and nothing, short of a hacksaw, will remove it....

   RE:RE:MISC:   Loosening a Stuck Stem posted by JONathan on 9/8/2004 at 6:28:22 AM
The wooden "cradle" clamped in the vice is a good one. I have accessed the wedge from the underside using a spare stem bolt...it will pull the wedge away from the stem...if that is the problem. Pounding from the top can jam things even worse. I remember doing this method on my Mercier "100" that was the basket-case, "leaner" bike that I rebuilt. The steere was bent, too. I did not attempt the straightening. This required some expertise and special tools. My brother heated the steerer with a torch and jammed a steel mandrel down inside and with just an artists' eye, tweaked it back. I bolted it back on the bike and felt shameful of my doubts that it could be freehanded...I suppose it is theoretically possible. maybe he was lucky, but the more he works, the luckier he seems to get. Liquid Wrench works wonders on stuck parts, but take your time soaking both ends. Good luck,

   RE:MISC:   Loosening a Stuck Stem posted by RobA on 9/8/2004 at 5:33:12 PM
Update on the second stuck stem...the GB stem in the Raleigh Grand Prix...

I 'cradled' the fork as described above, then applied the same sharp twist...boy, this one is tough!!! Eventually I did get some lateral movement, but not much. Then it bound up again...I can get it to shift left and right, maybe 1/8" with a loud 'pop' and that's it...hard on the arms, though, and I managed to give myself a rap in the ribs with one of my knuckles...:) ...I've given it two good soakings with Liquid Wrench...last night and this moring...I'll see what happens tonight...

On the previous one...the wrecked Bianchi frame with the Kalloy stem...the steerer tube on the outside looks pretty good, nice fresh original paint, no signs of bulging, but inside it's pretty ugly...dark dirty looking rust...the tubing on the frame is Columbus Cromor, and the forks are that complementary tubing ...what do they call it??? "Foderi...??"

   RE:RE:MISC:   Loosening a Stuck Stem posted by Ken on 9/10/2004 at 6:29:25 PM
The stem in my ca. '74 Raleigh Super Course MkII was too tough for the bench vise method. It wasn't the bulging wedge deal. I was able to tap the wedge down and remove it from the bottom of the fork, as described above, but my strength won't budge the stem. I've been riding it without a wedge nor stem bolt; looks a little odd, but I console myself by remembering the half-pound I left at home...

AGE / VALUE:   just purchased, What is its history? posted by: Aaron on 9/7/2004 at 11:16:41 PM
I just purchased this frame because of the lugs but am curious what people know about it.
I assume by the fork ends that it is not a track bike, so what do you think it had for drive train? I also assume it is not prewar, so what decade do you think it came from?


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   just purchased, What is its history? posted by David on 9/8/2004 at 12:58:40 AM
It has a very relaxed geometry, like an old roadster. The seat stays appear to bolt on, like a roadster, too. (It does have cool lugs.)

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   just purchased, What is its history? posted by Edward in Vancouver on 9/8/2004 at 1:35:26 AM
Wish they'd show the left side as well... What kind of cranks are those?, is it cottered on the left side? Any oil ports around the BB bracket? The remmnents of the rubber peddles might suggest a more a non-track use.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   just purchased, What is its history? posted by sam on 9/8/2004 at 8:26:06 PM
I think it's a crescent--bet the bb shells screw in.---sam

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   just purchased, What is its history? posted by Aaron on 9/10/2004 at 5:34:15 AM
I contacted the Swedish Bicycle Historical Sociey and received this response:

Hello Aaron,
you are almost right, but i don't know who could know more. The knowledge of the company is pretty poor. But my guess is that the frame is made around 1940's(ca 38-50) probably the mid 40's. It's to few parts left for a propper identification. I hope you noticed the companysign "MB" (the brands creator: Mauritz Berlin) in the chainwheel. The wheelsize normaly used for a 22" frame was 28 1½ with tyre 28 15/8x1½(44-635) and sometimes 26 1½ with tyre 26x2 (54-584). Since the company allways tried to be different it could be the opposit on the wheelsize(both are correct).

Sometimes it is noticable that there is a little wider rear and frontfork used on the 26"-wheels. Mostly the rims were of a Westwoodtype, but since it is an Apollo Endric is suitable too. When the brand started is unsertain, the company wasn't especially big in Sweden, but anyway pretty well known. They made some Mopeds too. Apollo became a part of the biggest bicyclecompany, Nyman Bolagen, in 1958. The name is today sometimes used on bikes made in China.

To get a feeling how this could look like you can se this link with Husqvarabicycles.
Especially the 1942 and 1947 model. Your bike got a racerhandlebar, but this is problably no racingbike. It could be a Tourisracer with 28 x 1½ wheels. Majority of Swedish bikes got hubbrakes and the biggest was German manufacturer Sachs -Torpedo. Their factory was however bombed in the late 2:nd World war so whilst they rebuilt the factory a Swedish manufacturer was probably mounted on this Apollo.

Bikes with lugworks in this condition is not unusual to find in use in Sweden today, even if they are over 50-70-years old. It's made of fine Swedish steel and often have a wonderful feeling. Just in case: To remove the crank rotate every part backwards!

Best regards Åke Stenqvist.


AGE / VALUE:   found heaven and cant afford it!!! posted by: johnny on 9/7/2004 at 6:31:53 AM
found a web site that what appears to have some vintage 10 speed roAdbikes that at least in the pictures in near mint condition!!ALL KINDS OF THEM,but the pictures are not the close up detailed pictures i like to see before purchasing one ,MAYBE if im real nice to the wife she will consider an investment?? LOL !!??BUT MY QUESTION HERE IS,HAS ANYONE HERE EVER PURCHASE A BIKE FROM THIS PLACE,AND WAS IT AS GREAT A CONDITION AS IT SEEMS TO BE?????FOUND IT ON THE OLDROADS LINKS,10SPEEDBIKES.COM

WANTED:   CCM 'Tour du Canada' posted by: Calvin on 9/5/2004 at 8:08:31 PM
Hi all, I'm looking for a CCM 'Tour du Canada'. The model that I'm looking for has a db frame. They made a much cheaper version much later, dept. store quality.
It doesn't have to have all the campy components but more the merrier! I have a titanium Speedwell frame for trade or sale. classic old frame. The CCM frame must be true and no dents. Paint/decals quality not a issue.

AGE / VALUE:   Chuck Schmidt of Velo Rendezvous injured posted by: Bob Hufford on 9/5/2004 at 2:32:34 PM
I'm forwarding this from the Classic Rendezvous list as Chuck posts here often and I thought some of you might want to know. Hoping he gets well soon ...

Bob Hufford
Springfield, MO


From: themaaslands@comcast.net
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 05:33:54 +0000
Subject: [CR]Chuck Schmidt Velo Rendezvous

I gave a call to Chuck Schmidt earlier today and was surprised to find that he was neither home, nor out on one of his daily bike rides. For somebody like Chuck, who works from his home, this is a rather odd circumstance. His wife Cheryl then gave me the bad news: Chuck was involved in a rather nasty accident and is presently in hospital. Apparently, as he was returning from his ride yesterday evening at about 7 PM, he came out the loser of a tangle with a SUV. The exact dynamics of the accident are still not clear, and apparently Chuck does not even recall the event himself, but the results had Chuck going through the rear window of the SUV. He was taken away in an ambulance with multiple contusions/fractures of scapulae, clavicles, ribs, knee… etc and a rather deep gash to his neck that required surgery. At event + one day, he has already begun sorting out his priorities, allowing his love for vintage bikes to supercede his personal situation. In fact, Cheryl tells me that he was giving immediate thought to tomorrow’s (Sunday) vintage ride, as well as the upcoming San Francisco Grand Prix and his own event, the Velo Rendezvous. As he had posted earlier this week, a reporter and photographer had already planned to be present for tomorrow’s ride, ,to follow up on a previous article that had appeared in the LA Times. It would be truly fitting if all those of you who are local could make a special effort to make it out tomorrow as a special tribute to Chuck. His post of September 2nd was:
"The LA Times is planning another article on the vintage ride and the renewed interest in retro bikes, so they are sending a reporter and photographer to this Sunday's ride.
If you ever wanted to be in the newspaper, now's the time...
Starts at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena, California every FIRST Sunday of the month. Meet at the pool/picnic area parking lot at the south end of the park at 10:30 am to introduce yourselves, talk bikes and swap parts. Ride will start at 11:00 am sharp. The ride will be a casual-paced 25 miles long through Pasadena, South Pasadena, San Marino, Temple City, Arcadia, Sierra Madre, Altadena, and back to the Rose Bowl for a picnic and more vintage bike talk. The ride is
mostly flat with one moderate climb (fixed gears are fine in other words). Everyone is encouraged to bring and ride a 1985 or earlier bicycle, but feel free to ride anything you have."
Chuck also has looked at the logistics of his upcoming event: Velo Rendezvous, on October 1-3 and is very upbeat about it. At this advanced stage in the preparations and after a number of successful previous editions, the event is quite well oiled and should not suffer. He has even gone so far as to tell his wife that, with all the support of his many great friends like Paulie and Matt, he is certain that there is not cause for concern by those planning on travel from afar. He was quick to point out that there have been numerous overseas participants in the past and a foreseen participation from as far away as New Zealand for this event. Given that I hope to speak to Chuck tomorrow, if anybody has any thing that they would like me to pass onto him, please drop me a line.

Steven Maasland
Moorestown, NJ


   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Chuck Schmidt of Velo Rendezvous injured posted by JONathan on 9/5/2004 at 10:12:37 PM
Here's to a speedy recovery, Chuck. The San Francisco Gran Prix sounds great..close to home, too. Although alert riding on a good bike can help avoid collisions, there are always impossible to avoid events. Things happen real fast, too. Also, I have been lucky (whatever that is), lately, but the inevitable spooks me when I dwell on it. I sometimes feel the need to pull over and wait for a minute, just to "reset" the timeframe. To me, "sharing the road" means "surviving the road". Good luck,


   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Chuck Schmidt of Velo Rendezvous injured posted by JB on 9/5/2004 at 11:04:07 PM
One more well wish for Chuck Schmidt...his knowledge and love of old bikes inspires all us old pedalers. I usually ride in rural area, but recently have been riding in town in work-related travels. It can be very scary stuff...Jonathan is right..think survival...as if everyone is out to get you..keep the awareness high esp. at intersections....they just don't see us! Will be thinking of Mr. Schmidt tomorrow on a 50 miler with the Lou. Bike Club...rolling with the hi-tech bikers.

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Chuck Schmidt of Velo Rendezvous injured posted by Brian Geoffrey on 9/6/2004 at 12:29:47 PM
We all hope you are back riding soon. I realize that no matter how much I love bicycles (and riding them) - the love & support of family & friends, especially during trying times, is the most important love of all.

Brian "missing my wife & companion Ella everyday"

   Chuck Schmidt posted by John E on 9/6/2004 at 5:25:39 PM
Greetings, Chuck -- I know you only from your website, your many cordial and helpful responses to my emails over the years, and our ride together at Jimmy Thompson's Hetchins Heaven a few years ago. (I think you were the one guy riding a bike older than my 1959 Capo.) I wish you nothing but the best, including a speedy, uneventful recovery. Your friend, John Eldon, Encinitas CA. P.S., You'll have to see my Capo now; my photos on bikeforums.net do not do justice to Jim and Susan's paint-and-decal job.

AGE / VALUE:   Huret Svelto derailleurs posted by: JB on 9/4/2004 at 6:05:53 PM
Picked up a old Belgium bike...Libertas..has Huret front/back "Svelto"...anyone know where this type fell...low/high end stuff ....

   RE:AGE / VALUE:   Huret Svelto derailleurs posted by John S on 9/8/2004 at 3:59:04 PM
Svelto's were high-mid range derailleurs, collectable, though not terribly valuable. Set up right, they shift nicely.

   RE:RE:AGE / VALUE:   Huret Svelto derailleurs posted by JB on 9/11/2004 at 6:12:53 PM
Thanks John S, I finally got the old Libertas on the road..and the Huret derailleurs do fine...smoother than the Simplex gears on my other French rides...it is the first Huret geared bike I acquired..was skeptical of its reputation...but am plesantly surprised by the shifting, and the overall quality of the Belgium frame..will get some miles out of this unique "steelie>"