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WANTED:   Info needed on early "American Bicycle Mfg. " bike called "Montaneus." posted by: Stephen on 10/24/2000 at 4:44:11 PM
Any of you guys know about a bike that was made in the early '80s that was made by
"American Bicycle Mfg. " it was a bike called "Montaneus." It is made of aluminum with heavy welds,has a weird under-the-frame
rear brake and the old style black anodized high flange hubs. It appears to be made very well. I was just wondering if the company still exists
and how many bikes were made?? Anybody have pics of one and what parts originally came with the bike?
I would appreciate any info you all could help me with!! Stephen

   RE:WANTED:   Info needed on early posted by Ed on 10/24/2000 at 7:45:31 PM
Wasn't the Montaneus the bike with an adjustable head angle?

   RE:RE:WANTED:   Info needed on early posted by Stephen on 10/25/2000 at 1:04:39 PM
Wow Ed, that would have been interesting. My montaneus doesn't have that feature.
Do you know of any other interesting tidbits on the bike you'd like to share??
Thank You, stephen

   RE:RE:RE:WANTED:   Info needed on early posted by Ed on 10/31/2000 at 9:15:37 AM
I'll have to dig through the Archives Department in my attic and see if I can find a reference in an old bike magazine. If my memory serves, the bike had two sets of large allen bolts in the head tube that allowed the steerer tube and headset assembly to pivot. This was back in the Age of Experimentation between maybe 1984 and 1987, before geometry standardized around the NORBA template, when nobody knew what kind of geometry worked well. You suspect that some pretty strange handling result if you change the head angle without changing the fork rake. But I'll see if I can come up with some documentation.

MISC:   Old School vs Vintage posted by: Doug on 10/23/2000 at 4:25:54 PM
Could someone explain to me why this section is called Old School Mountain Bikes. Old School refers to the way something is. Vintage implies age. Rivendell is brand new but could be called old school.

   definition posted by John E on 10/23/2000 at 5:58:56 PM
Good point, Doug. I had originally envisioned a discussion area for 1970s and 1980s mountain bikes, but I would support including newer equipment, as well. (Rivendell is often mentioned reverently on the Vintage Lightweights board.) I am interested in the earlier mountain bikes because I ride a fairly rare one which features several experimental evolutionary dead ends, some good, some bad, some ugly. My questions and observations regarding my mountain bike simply did not fit any of VVVintage's established categories.

MISC:   Thanks Vince posted by: Ray on 10/23/2000 at 7:17:23 AM
Great quick response. Now let the games begin. I am on the lookout for a Schwinn Sting MTB. What is out there? I own the first fully suspended MTB a 92 Cannondale Delta V2000 that I enjoy very much. It would be great to start seeing all of that early stuff on this site even if it is just for discussion and not for sale.

   RE:MISC:   Thanks Vince posted by Art on 10/23/2000 at 11:49:22 AM
What's the relationship between the Schwinn Sting and the King Sting? I thought the King Sting preceeded the mountain bike and thus was important because it fit between BMX or MX and the mountain bike. I've always wanted a King Sting because it seemed kind of cool but I've never seen one.

   King Sting posted by Ray on 10/23/2000 at 12:27:51 PM
Art, you are correct. It is King Sting not Sting. The Sting is the BMX version of a Schwinn bike while the King Sting is the MTB or mountain bike that Schwinn started with. I have seen quite a few of them and they range in color but the most sought after from what I can tell is the chrome frame version. It has neat anodized components and looks like a large BMX bike. It did not catch on so there are not many out there. I have still seen them for reasonable prices but fewer and fewer as time goes on. Not particularly very good as a real mountain bike functionally but a must if you are going to collect early mountain bikes.

   RE:MISC:   Thanks Vince posted by Ed on 10/23/2000 at 1:42:39 PM
In the mid 80's, I did a full overhaul on one. Probably the first time I saw anodized alloy nipples on a mountain bike. The mix of BMX and road components was cool, cool, cool, but the shifting was godawful-tiny-barrelled SunTour thumbshifters and a touring bike derailleur. Does anyone know whether these were usually sold as complete bikes or as a bare frame?

   "King" in Schwinn model names posted by John E on 10/23/2000 at 6:03:07 PM
Has Schwinn associated the name "King" only with mountain bikes? The only other example in my limited database is their KOM (King of the Mountain) series.

   RE:RE:MISC:   Thanks Vince posted by Jeff on 10/24/2000 at 4:18:32 AM
The King Sting was available as a complete bike in 81' and 82'. They came in single, five and ten speed versions. (I think that the ten speed version was 82' only.) The complete bikes were available in silver or black but I think framesets were also available because I hear about red, blue, and chrome bikes out there. Prices in 82 were $529.95 for single speed, $549.95 for a five speed, and $569.95 for a ten speed.

WANTED:   Early suspension posted by: Oscar on 10/22/2000 at 8:03:07 PM
Where are the early examples of suspension forks? I know the early mushy elastomer-only models are downright backwards compared to those nowadays, but no maintenance is needed. Some time ago, I was riding with a guy who used an unusual knee-action suspension fork. We rode for 45 miles together, and I was mesmerized by his fork. A note to all you guys- if you know there to find one of these with a one-inch steerer (vintage sizing, of course) and tall, shoot me a line. Boing, boing, boing!

   RE:WANTED:   Early suspension posted by Brian L. on 10/23/2000 at 12:09:05 PM
Depends on how early you want to go. I stopped in at my favorite local shop, "Bikesmith" on 45th street to ogle a near-mint 1911 Pierce-Arrow with chrome leaf-spring suspended fork and uni-crown style rear triangle with internal spring and concentric pivot at the BB. Very beautiful and elegant with chrome 28" rims.

   RE:WANTED:   Early suspension posted by Art on 10/23/2000 at 4:43:15 PM
Oscar, will you describe the "knee action" fork in greater detail. I don't know what you are talking about.

   RE:RE:WANTED:   Early suspension posted by Oscar on 10/23/2000 at 8:06:26 PM
I can't remember if I'm right-brained or left-brained. I'm not the mechanical one, so bear with my description.

This guy's fork pivoted on a spring-loaded device that worked like a backward knee. Each end of the crown was welded to a spring-tensioned hinge, which was welded to the forks. Unloaded, he "knee" was extended. On bumps, the shock compressed the bend of the knee. Everything was smooth and silent about the way it rode. None of that air compressed oil bath squishy sound.

I can't remember the brand, though I recalled it as a known name in the early 90's. Some guy in South Bend rides it.

   RE:RE:RE:WANTED:   Early suspension posted by Brian L. on 10/23/2000 at 9:49:56 PM
Sounds like you're trying to describe the AMP suspension fork. This fork features two mini-shocks that control a fore-aft action as opposed to the more traditional (if that word can be used in this context) vertical orietation/action of most motorcycle forks. This fork is know for having good response to small, fast/frequent stutter bumps, but performs poorly to large bumps.

   RE:RE:RE:RE:WANTED:   Early suspension posted by Ed on 10/24/2000 at 7:00:35 AM
It could also be a Leader fork, designed and originally manufactured by Mert Lawwill ('91-'92) and later ('93?) manufactured by Control Tech. A very useful piece of equipment.

   Knee Action posted by Ray on 10/24/2000 at 12:27:18 PM
If you talk to any old timers they will describe the Schwinn Phantom bike as a Knee Action. It is just a description and can be attached to many suspension bikes of years gone by. I know of an older neighborhood bike repair guy and he asked me to take a look at his Schwinn Knee Action bike and it was a Hornet springer.

   RE:WANTED:   Early suspension posted by goryJORY on 5/24/2002 at 9:26:11 PM
Here is a link to the AMP fork manual that Brian was referring to: http://www.amp-research.com/F3F4_Manual.pdf
Hope this will be informative enough for you. :)

FOR SALE:   Specialized front fork posted by: Gary on 10/22/2000 at 8:04:23 PM
need a front fork for a Specialized cross-trainer, 700 series wheels, v-brake mount lugs on fork

FOR SALE:   NEW board posted by: Gary on 10/21/2000 at 7:26:02 PM

   RE:FOR SALE:   NEW board posted by Wings on 10/21/2000 at 11:20:56 PM
Thanks for setting this up! Very responsive on your part! I will be here often!

   RE:RE:FOR SALE:   NEW board posted by Wings on 10/21/2000 at 11:30:58 PM
Re: Your Responsiveness--
Does this mean that we will soon see a discussion area for 3 speed SA recumbents using fat tires on the rear with U brakes, 1 and 3/8 tires on the front with Mafac brakes -- and Cruiser handle bars?

   only those converted to fixed-gear 2-wheel drive posted by John E on 10/22/2000 at 8:39:53 PM
I suppose we may eventually need to define "old school" mountain bikes, but for now we can simply see where this leads. Thanks for giving it a try, VVVintage!

By the way, I have a copy of Berto's "Birth of Dirt," from which I can cite references as the interest arises.

MISC:   Have at it. posted by: VVVintage Vintage Bicyclces at OldRoads.com on 10/21/2000 at 4:44:31 PM
Here's the thread that kicked off this discussion area:

VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by: John E on 10/14/00 at 8:25:58 AM
Now that the first-generation mountain bikes are well into their second decade, I wonder if it would make sense to start a vintage mountain bikes discussion group. My first question would be which mountain bikes from the 1980s are projected to become collectibles. I may be full of chain lube, but I think I may be sitting (so to speak) on one. It is a high-quality (Tange Prestige II tubing), distinctive-looking (Paramount red/white/blue), limited-production (2000 units) 1988 Schwinn from Greenville MS, with equipment that was in vogue for only a few years (rollercam front brake, chainstay-mounted U-brake, SunTour indexed thumb shifters, 4-finger brake levers, Nitto stem with brake cable passage).

RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Brian L. on 10/14/00 at 9:45:08 AM
The highest prices I have seen for mint, older (i.e. steel, un-sprung) MTBs have been for Bridgestone MB-0s. Beautiful bikes. When I raced, THE bike to have for a couple of years was a Klein "Attitude", so that might be a contender. 1st generation Stumpjumpers should also be on the list, although they were pretty clunky with bad tires. I would personally like to get a hold of one of the 1st generation Treks. I had one and totalled it. They had nice lugs and a pretty flat-crown fork. Probably not collectable though I haven't seen many around.

RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Brian L. on 10/14/00 at 9:47:19 AM
I would also add: pre-trek Bontragers, Salsas and the original Yetis. I'm just not convinced about the Paramounts and I never liked the Red/White/Blue scheme (apologies). Just a little too "Rah, Rah USA" for my tastes.

RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Art on 10/14/00 at 6:40:34 PM
I like the idea. I even think those early experiments with rear suspension are interesting.

RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Warren on 10/14/00 at 6:42:12 PM
EARLY Ritchey, Fisher, and the other guy who's name escapes me...Joe someone. They have been given official credit for the birth of the industry if not the actual sport. I've seen an interview where they credit another bunch of guys in CA with being the first to mount a derailleur on an old ballooner...Eureka! Look for first generation Deore equipment. And the very trick Rich Cunningham centre-pull caliper brakes not unlike the rollercam.. Most of these bikes were handbuilt and will therefore be very desireable.

RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Brian L. on 10/14/00 at 6:57:45 PM
Yes, definitely just about any Ritchey. Fishers are fine, but sooooo boring.

RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Oscar on 10/15/00 at 7:26:15 AM
Would that "Joe Somebody" be Joe Breeze. Be careful what you get into, though. You-all are talking about the neon paint scheme era.

I've always rode mountain bikes suspension-less. I rode with a guy last year who had an early "knee-action" suspension fork. I always have my eyes open for one. Let me know if one of you buds come across one (neon paint scheme is ok).

RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by jimbo on 10/15/00 at 9:52:19 AM
How about the mountain bikes that used french components like TA cranks and huret derailers, along with the first handbuilt bikes back when they were called ATB,s and other names before mountain bike caught on.

RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Gary on 10/15/00 at 12:38:04 PM
dont know about 1988 being the start, you should have seen the Gambles Hiawatha i had, 26x 2 knobby tires, 10 speed, 4 in rise bars, but cheap components. oldest MTB i have seen

RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: mountain bikes that used french components posted by shoe on 10/15/00 at 9:33:49 PM
The 1981 & 82 Stumpjumper had a TA crank, Huret derailleurs and Mafac cantilevers, all French, as well as Italian Magura brake levers.
The Specialized Stumpjumper was the first mountain bike that people in "the rest of the world" could buy. It cost $750.
I heard that 1981 models were only available in California, due to demand there. Specialized started marketing them in late 80-early 81
and I ordered one immediately. It took a year or so to arrive (January 82). I hated that bike. 15 speed gearing was great, but could it
possibly have weighed more? I heard 42 pounds (never checked). The steering was like lead. Think of steering a boat. A reallly big boat.

RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: mountain bikes that used french components posted by Wings on 10/15/00 at 11:38:33 PM
I look for bikes in thrift stores one day a week. I usually go to 7 stores. Two years ago any mountain bike would be $80 and up unless it had a tacoed wheel or something. Last year they increased in number and this year they are usually under $30. I bought two Schwinn Mesa runners for $15 each - no rust - very clean. I also remembered the advertisements for those bikes years ago when I bought my Motiv in 1985 or 86 (could not afford the Schwinn). The aluminum bikes are also showing up. Things have changed so much but they are still great commuter bikes for those that cannot afford cars. Many have biotech chainwheels and always U brakes. I like the old brake levers better than the newer ones!

Moutain Bike Ads posted by Oscar on 10/16/00 at 7:10:54 AM
Speaking of bike ads, I remember one of Specialized's ads for the stumpjumper. It went like this:"Why does Kenya's wildlife reserve ranger force use the Specialized Stumpjumper? Because it's BITCHIN, that's why!"

Imagine chasing down poachers with a mountain bike! Where do I sign up?

RE:RE:RE:RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: mountain bikes that used french components posted by jimbo on 10/16/00 at 1:50:17 PM
How about some of the evolutionary dead ends designs or parts that some of the mountain bike companies came up that were supposed to be inovative. Forks blades got titanic and brakes becan unesscessarily complicated. Companies were coming up with hybreds like combiningn a beach cruiser with a ten speed and ending up with the worse qualities of both! If a bike didnt have a rube goldberg spin to it the paint scheme was "explosion in a paint factory".

evolutionary dead ends -- R.I.P. posted by John E on 10/16/00 at 2:02:44 PM
Agreed. I have yet to figure out any benefit whatsoever to having my U-brake mounted under the chainstays. Also, because of my rollercam/U-brake mounting bosses, I could not update to V-brakes, even if I wanted to. Also, I wish I had rack/mudguard eyelets on my dropouts. I do like the motorcycle-style brake levers, however, because I can easily grab their ends from my handlebar extensions.

We need a mountain bike section here posted by ChristopherRobin on 10/16/00 at 3:58:05 PM
I think there should be a mountain bike discussion section here. Thirteen thread posts since the 14 th and today is the 16th. Lively and informative reading. Yes, I think it is time to have a mountain bike section only call it "Old Trails"

RE:evolutionary dead ends -- R.I.P. posted by Warren on 10/16/00 at 7:32:58 PM
There was NO advantage to the lower mounts for U-brakes. They were very quickly moved up to a higher position on the chainstays because of the crud that would clog up the brakes.Unfortunately even these brake mounts were not compatible with cantis or linear pulls...wrong position. I do have an NOS U-brake somewhere if someone needs it. They stop very well when set up properly.

RE:VINTAGE LIGHTWEIGHTS: VVVintage: vintage mountain bike discussion area? posted by Gary on 10/16/00 at 9:49:28 PM
MTB the response on this thread is definetly good. Let me ask this, i run a bike shop, and i have YET to see a suspension bike that dont squeak, skip, and flail from side to side like a fish tail. It seems to me these things are good for one year. I dont like the ride, they are like a 26 in huffy on flats. they usually are heavy, and cumbersome. I have been on CannonDales, Treks, Mongoose, and the usual dept store models and all i can say is Hardtails Rule. I dont want one of those susp bikes ever. Any ideas? I took a 26 in Alloy BCA MTB and put ultralight road tires on it, and i take it everywhere. My Question is this Do you think that the suspension is also absorbing the force of the pedal stroke? and to what extent? i know you can pedal 5 times on a fuji and go a block, or pedal 50 times on the AVG MTB.

RE:evolutionary dead ends -- R.I.P. posted by Wings on 10/16/00 at 11:11:51 PM
Right, the U brake bosses are far from V brake positions. There are some improved U brake styles in the BMX magazines (advertisements). I bought a Tektro FX 20 and it stops better than a U brake. There is another version that has longer arms than the FX 20 and it has greater leverage to give better braking-- better than V brakes--more control. Also brake bridges can be purchased or made to do something with the old bosses. Who would want a V brake uner the stays anyhow? Yes, the U brake killed my hands the last time I did the long downhill--not the thing to use. Too bad.

RE:RE:evolutionary dead ends -- R.I.P. posted by Wings on 10/16/00 at 11:20:21 PM
Yes, I think rear suspension absorbs pedal energy and works against the rider uphill. I only ride hardtails and I think they are great! I pass full suspension going uphill. Gullp! They pass me on downhill.
Have you looked at the kids 20 inch bikes? They are super heavy and have the Y bike shape. Like lightweight just does not cut it anymore in 20 inch bikes. Is Y trendy or needed?

RE:RE:RE:evolutionary dead ends -- R.I.P. posted by Art on 10/17/00 at 7:21:14 AM
I think the observations about full suspensions are right. Loss of power, longevity(esp the Costco $150 fulls), trendy, etc. That being said, I have a Diamondback XR1 that I ride on Sundays. I love bikes, and it's just another, different kind of ride. I wouldn't have a fleet of them and on rough mountain trail I prefer a hardtail. You really can't commute on a full suspension bike and they can be spongy if you don't adjust it right. But I like how mine looks and it gives my old butt and prostate a day off. I've had and have seen some interesting early rear suspended bikes...Balance, Caloi, that may not been successful in the long run but were interesting experiments in bike building. Like aluminum bikes, anatomical seats, seat tube cut-outs and full suspension bikes, these ideas have been around since the turn of the century.

RE:RE:RE:RE:evolutionary dead ends -- R.I.P. posted by Jeff on 10/18/00 at 6:23:05 AM
Did anyone talk to oldroads about setting up an Old School MTB section? Are they agreeable?

I did posted by Ray on 10/19/00 at 7:50:02 AM
I have been in contact with Vinny of OldRoads and he is looking into it. Sounds pretty positive to me. I told him to look up this string to see the activity. I also agree that us MTB folks need a designation of our own. There is a lot of interest building on the MTB collectibles and even swapping newer stuff. PS, does anyone have a late model Cannondale swing arm for sale. I just bought a Raven frame at the Trexlertown meet on Saturday and want to build it up.